#emc | Logs for 2008-06-01

[00:23:56] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I posted a latency test for the Intel mini-ITX board - on retest the numbers were much better and I think it is due to the fact that for the second test the DVD drive was removed.
[00:25:33] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Also I used an OLD HDD that was at best ATA-33 rated if that and likely had TCAL issues.
[00:28:17] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I will get newer HDD and retest and update the wiki post
[00:45:06] <SkullWorks_PGAB> which CO-edu?
[00:56:46] <seb_kuzminsky> SkullWorks_PGAB: me? boulder
[00:57:44] <SkullWorks_PGAB> ah - I'm just down the hill from the UCCS campus
[00:58:08] <seb_kuzminsky> colorado springs? cool... we should have a rocky mountain emc meet some time :-)
[00:59:14] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Sure - once I get my machine finished I'll be hauling it to shows...
[00:59:31] <seb_kuzminsky> what are you building?
[01:00:21] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Servo converted Seig X3 with a larger DC spindle motor
[01:00:42] <seb_kuzminsky> nice... i'm building a servo x2 (with the stock motor)
[01:00:54] <seb_kuzminsky> what are you doing for ball screws?
[01:02:41] <SkullWorks_PGAB> still to be determined - I am on the fence as to if I should use XPR rolled screws with double nuts or try the new preloaded offering from homeshopcnc.com
[01:05:18] <SkullWorks_PGAB> the new screws from homeshopcnc are 5mm pitch, supposed to be zero bachlash via the preloaded nuts - but I think I want to be able to adjust backlash preload - and I don't think thats possible with there preloaded nuts - unless I use doulble nuts there too.
[01:09:38] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I'm going to use a Mesa 5i20 and the Mesa dual amps (2 pcs, allows for adding the 4th axis once its built)
[01:10:26] <seb_kuzminsky> cool! I'm writing a new driver for the 5i20 :-)
[01:10:37] <seb_kuzminsky> the 7i29 amps?
[01:10:51] <SkullWorks_PGAB> um - let me see
[01:11:25] <seb_kuzminsky> the 7i29 is the dual 2.5 KW iirc
[01:13:00] <SkullWorks_PGAB> 7i40
[01:13:07] <SkullWorks_PGAB> LV
[01:14:49] <SkullWorks_PGAB> About $300 for 4 axis amps, a price that can't be beat - and being from the same mfg you know they will work together
[01:15:43] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I got plenty of good shielded SCSI cables laying around from all the raid arrays
[01:16:20] <seb_kuzminsky> cool... i'm planning to use those twisted-pair ribbon cables.
[01:17:12] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I'm thinking of external cables.
[01:17:58] <SkullWorks_PGAB> but I am now looking at packing the whole mess in one segregated Nema cabnet
[01:19:14] <seb_kuzminsky> what size servos are you using?
[01:19:25] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm in the very early planning stage in case you can't tell :-)
[01:19:47] <SkullWorks_PGAB> 600 oz-in peak
[01:21:34] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I have some sweet 400 oz-in units that would work for you - would work for this too - but I would have to gear them down more than I want
[01:22:06] <SkullWorks_PGAB> My target is 220 IPM rapids
[01:22:26] <seb_kuzminsky> i think 400 oz*in would be plenty for an x2... what kind of encoders do they have? specs? wanna sell them?
[01:23:02] <SkullWorks_PGAB> no encoders on them at present - let me grab one
[01:24:34] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Pittman LoCog M14437A105
[01:25:00] <seb_kuzminsky> how many do you have?
[01:25:09] <SkullWorks_PGAB> 14 series is the largest Pittman makes
[01:25:19] <seb_kuzminsky> right, all the others are too little
[01:25:24] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm testing with a couple of 8xxx
[01:25:38] <SkullWorks_PGAB> 3 of the big ones 6 medium
[01:26:23] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I'm checking out some SEI encoders
[01:26:45] <seb_kuzminsky> but no encoders, bummer
[01:26:58] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Seeing if the imports are a better value than US digital
[01:28:09] <seb_kuzminsky> what voltage are the windings?
[01:28:22] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Pittmans are avail with HEDS encoders - but finding any with an index channel is rare - so I opted to buy without encoders so I could fit what would be the best match for what I was doing.
[01:28:31] <SkullWorks_PGAB> 24V
[01:28:57] <SkullWorks_PGAB> medium might be 30V
[01:29:40] <seb_kuzminsky> are you selling them?
[01:29:54] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I think the medium would be too small for your Z unless you use a counter weight
[01:30:03] <SWPadnos> I assume that 's 400 oz-in peak - what's the continuous rating?
[01:30:16] <seb_kuzminsky> 50...
[01:30:28] <SkullWorks_PGAB> argh - let me find the spec pdf
[01:30:31] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:30:39] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm looking at it, the continuous torque is 50
[01:30:43] <jmkasunich> lol - the shuttle is kind of like my basement....
[01:30:49] <SWPadnos> 50 might be a little low, I think the ratio is usually between 3 and 5
[01:30:59] <SWPadnos> other than gravity and cost, yeah :)
[01:31:15] <SkullWorks_PGAB> SWP - btw these are the same servos that were used on the early IH conversions
[01:31:31] <jmkasunich> "Houston, Discovery.. three of us have gone rooting throught the locker looking for the <garble> update disk, and we can't find it. Got any ideas?"
[01:31:39] <seb_kuzminsky> http://highlab.com/~seb/bzr/fabrication/machines/x2-mill/servo-experiment/vendor-docs/pittman/lcm_bulletin.pdf
[01:31:50] <SWPadnos> IH=industrial hobbies?
[01:32:09] <SkullWorks_PGAB> yup
[01:33:29] <SkullWorks_PGAB> bottom of pg 15
[01:33:49] <SkullWorks_PGAB> 14xx7
[01:33:53] <SkullWorks_PGAB> 24V
[01:35:10] <SWPadnos> wow, they are 50 cont./ I'm impressed :)
[01:35:31] <seb_kuzminsky> is that good? or bad?
[01:35:36] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont know... :-}
[01:35:45] <SkullWorks_PGAB> SWP yup its 50 but thats 1:1
[01:35:58] <SWPadnos> it's impressive that they have an 8:1 ratio of peak to continuous (to me anyway)
[01:36:01] <SWPadnos> sure
[01:36:10] <SWPadnos> 3211 RPM max no load speed though
[01:36:20] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I would expect a 3:1 reduction or 4:1
[01:36:29] <SWPadnos> so if you gear down 4:1, you get 200 oz-in and ~800 RPM
[01:36:55] <SkullWorks_PGAB> with about 6" Y axis travel....
[01:37:01] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:37:07] <SWPadnos> so get low resolution encoders ;)
[01:38:11] <SWPadnos> oh look, I can get replacement motors for only $911 each: http://www.clickautomation.com/products/index.php?func=show&pid=2036
[01:38:12] <SkullWorks_PGAB> 200 oz-in steppers on X2's can break things just fine - servos let you break things faster.
[01:38:27] <anonimasu> :p
[01:39:20] <SkullWorks_PGAB> SWP for what?
[01:39:28] <SWPadnos> that's what I have for my mill
[01:40:00] <SWPadnos> I don't need replacements at the moment, but I keep looking for a deal almost as good as when I bought them originally
[01:40:25] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I'm still hoping I can convince the shop owner to sell me the DEAD Hurco KM3 they have
[01:41:23] <gezr> hurcos dont die they just lose their minds
[01:41:36] <SkullWorks_PGAB> memory board is toast (it used Dallas memory) - but the servo mate amp and motors still work fine
[01:42:22] <gezr> im tired tonight, I guess I didnt get the right sleep last night
[01:42:39] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I ran that machine from 6 months after they bought it till it died
[01:43:05] <SkullWorks_PGAB> good Iron - and was not crashed
[01:43:20] <SkullWorks_PGAB> machine looks near new
[01:46:34] <jmkasunich> "Houston, Discovery... we found the disk, it was in with the the thumb drive"
[01:46:45] <seb_kuzminsky> i picked up a used 14xx7 with encoder used for $25 the other day at saunder's
[01:48:15] <SkullWorks_PGAB> index channel?
[01:48:27] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont know yet... probably not
[01:48:36] <seb_kuzminsky> so no good homing :-(
[01:48:47] <SkullWorks_PGAB> 4 pins or 5 on the encoder?
[01:49:04] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont have it here
[01:53:33] <K`zan> Sigh, being stuck at 800x600 it is real hard to get stuff done when the damn dialogs are larger than that and not resizeable, if for no other reason you can't reach the area you need to get to to be able to resize.
[01:53:59] <K`zan> And apparently the new emc doesn't like my old .ini file.
[01:54:05] <K`zan> Sigh, SCREAM :-/.
[01:58:01] <SkullWorks_PGAB> ok - found the medium - there 14203
[01:58:35] <SkullWorks_PGAB> also 24v and all ball bearing
[01:58:40] <SWPadnos> alt-space, m, move the mouse, click when you can see what you need to see
[01:59:03] <SWPadnos> or press escape to let the window go back to where it was when you started
[02:14:11] <SkullWorks_PGAB> woot - scored a best offer on this http://cgi.ebay.com/MINARIK-MM23001C-MM-23001C-MOTOR-SPEED-CONTROL-DRIVE_W0QQitemZ230242302576QQihZ013QQcategoryZ78193QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247
[02:15:06] <eric_U> hope you offered $25 shipped
[02:15:32] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Add some big breaking resistors...
[02:15:52] <SkullWorks_PGAB> why's that Eric?
[02:16:39] <eric_U> looks like trouble
[02:17:33] <SkullWorks_PGAB> severa users have had great luck with this model - paying $69.95 from Surplus Center for them
[02:17:48] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I offered $39
[02:18:24] <SkullWorks_PGAB> its not like that crap $19 unit suitable for fan motors...
[02:18:49] <eric_U> what inputs does it take?
[02:19:15] <SkullWorks_PGAB> has a few options
[02:19:35] <SkullWorks_PGAB> a speed control voltage of 0-3v
[02:20:06] <SkullWorks_PGAB> or use the supplied potentiometer for manual use
[02:20:38] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I read the manual before ordering.
[02:21:48] <SkullWorks_PGAB> almost anything is better than the factory controller - but I have a bigger DC motor to replace the OEM unit
[02:24:16] <SkullWorks_PGAB> machine can't use the extra power much - but for tapping and a few other things it will be well worth the upgrade - besides I'm targeting a 5000rpm spindle speed for small tools.
[02:37:03] <jmkasunich> today's project: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/collet-box-2111.jpg
[02:37:32] <jmkasunich> holes milled by EMC of course
[02:37:34] <DanielFalck> nice john
[02:37:45] <DanielFalck> looks great
[02:38:25] <jmkasunich> I'm ever so slowly getting things organized
[02:38:51] <cradek> did you make the box too?
[02:38:54] <DanielFalck> same here. I've been looking for some good solid fastener storage drawers
[02:39:02] <jmkasunich> cradek: yes
[02:39:05] <cradek> neat
[02:39:17] <jmkasunich> I have a very simple technique for making that kind of box
[02:39:37] <jmkasunich> three slots in the wood parts - for top, bottom, and collet plate
[02:39:41] <jmkasunich> top and bottom are masonite
[02:39:49] <jmkasunich> glue the whole thing up, then cut it open after the glue dries
[02:39:51] <cradek> build it together and cut it open?
[02:40:08] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[02:40:10] <cradek> neat. it looks great.
[02:40:23] <cradek> cutting a box open is so obvious once you know to do it
[02:40:43] <jmkasunich> thats the third one I've done - the other two are for 5C collets and some small swiss screw machine collets that I made a chuck for some years ago
[02:42:15] <jmkasunich> the swiss ones: http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2001_retired_files/JMKCOL1.jpg
[02:42:50] <cradek> MT for tailstock?
[02:42:55] <jmkasunich> headstock
[02:42:59] <jmkasunich> MT4
[02:43:09] <cradek> ah (nothing for scale)
[02:43:16] <jmkasunich> the collets go 1/16 (IIRC) to almost 1/2" by 64ths
[02:43:31] <cradek> cool, I thought they were much smaller
[02:43:31] <jmkasunich> I think I'm missing the last two - 31/64 and 1/2"
[02:44:32] <jmkasunich> better pic of collet and chuck: http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2001_retired_files/JMKCOL2.jpg
[02:45:07] <jmkasunich> the piece on the back is threaded on - my plan was to make a drawtube to hold it in
[02:45:24] <jmkasunich> but I never got around to it - so far the morse taper has held just fine
[02:45:48] <cradek> did you turn the MT yourself?
[02:46:01] <jmkasunich> no, I bought a cheap MT4 to jacobs something arbor
[02:46:13] <jmkasunich> cheap as in not really hardened (although it was tough cutting)
[02:46:14] <cradek> smart. that's a huge pain.
[02:46:38] <cradek> but easy with cnc!
[02:46:50] <jmkasunich> this predates my CNC by a lot
[02:47:01] <cradek> yeah I knew that from the date - that's why I asked.
[02:47:11] <jmkasunich> I threaded it by hand-cranking the spindle
[02:47:20] <cradek> urgh
[02:47:54] <jmkasunich> after the threads were cut I mounted a dremel with a sharp edged cratex wheel chased them with that
[02:48:19] <jmkasunich> sharp edge = 60 deg
[02:48:36] <jmkasunich> I also used the dremel to grind the inside taper after roughing it with a boring bar
[02:48:44] <jmkasunich> dremel's suck
[02:48:52] <jmkasunich> -'
[02:49:01] <cradek> I bet it took you an entire day to cut those threads
[02:49:13] <jmkasunich> entire evening anyway
[02:49:44] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Well - I'm off - have to go pick up the new alarm code that kick in at midnight - and I open in the morning - such joy!
[02:50:33] <jmkasunich> have fun ;-)
[03:46:22] <[1]a-l-p-h-a> [1]a-l-p-h-a is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[05:15:15] <tomp2> Is the 7i29 user selectable for velocity loop or current loop?
[05:15:15] <tomp2> It gets the encoder but doesnt say it's used for vel.
[05:15:15] <tomp2> I guess the 7i29 is a 'pure' hbridge (no loop) with an area to connect the encoder because...
[05:15:15] <tomp2> if the pkg has no tuning itself, then it has no loop of its own.
[05:25:11] <tomp2> no size listed... maybe 2"x5" ? and suited to brushed dc motors
[05:44:22] <sed_> has anyone heard of EMC working on a Syil CNC machine, I found a thread on CNCZone where somone had it partly working but thats it.
[05:46:17] <SWPadnos> I haven't heard of Syil
[05:47:15] <sed_> http://www.syilcanada.com/
[05:47:25] <sed_> fairly cool CNC machine for 4k
[05:47:51] <sed_> 4th axis even... bench model but had hard ball screws and some nifty features for the money
[05:48:01] <SWPadnos> ah, ok - another importer of the X3/X4 stuff
[05:48:05] <sed_> Syil is all over the place, in every country
[05:48:25] <sed_> who is the real maker of the X3/X4?
[05:48:42] <SWPadnos> I think it may be Sieg, but I'm not sure
[05:48:55] <sed_> yea they mention that
[05:48:59] <SWPadnos> there's a Chinese company (or two or three) that make the machines, and everyone and their brother imports them
[05:49:01] <sed_> I didnt make that connection
[05:49:54] <SWPadnos> they're using Mach3, so EMC should be able to run the machine just fine
[05:50:10] <SWPadnos> unless they have some USB smart controller that they've written a Mach driver for
[05:50:17] <sed_> oh cool, would it be fairly plug and play?
[05:50:51] <SWPadnos> sort of. you'll have to create a configuration, but it's easy with the stepconf wizard (assuming it's a stepper machine driven from the parallel port)
[05:51:03] <sed_> yes it is
[05:51:22] <sed_> http://www.siegind.com/
[05:51:30] <sed_> that site has way cool lookng machines..
[05:51:36] <SWPadnos> we're setting up something like a database of working configs. so once you get it working, we can put the config there and anyone else can just download it
[05:51:44] <sed_> yea thats them
[05:52:01] <sed_> very awsome..
[05:52:30] <sed_> I run a Maho at work usint emc1 and have not had the time to convert to emc2
[05:52:50] <sed_> its running a servo to go ISA card
[05:52:52] <SWPadnos> if it works, leave it alone :)
[05:53:09] <SWPadnos> unless you need the new features
[05:53:22] <sed_> old read hat install.. would prefer newer so I dont have to learn it to install simple crap like ssh and nfs...
[05:53:33] <sed_> read had= red hat
[05:53:37] <SWPadnos> what CPU/memory/hard disk?
[05:53:41] <SWPadnos> figured :)
[05:54:22] <sed_> its runing a PIII 400 with like 256 ram..
[05:54:45] <sed_> I would strip Ubuntu and run xfce or somthing..
[05:57:42] <SWPadnos> yeah, an install from either the alternace CD or the XUbuntu CD might work
[05:57:45] <SWPadnos> alternate
[05:58:37] <sed_> I got it installed, I installed unbuntu on a drive and ran that uber install script that built emc and the real time kernel and all that..
[05:58:59] <SWPadnos> oh, cool
[05:59:12] <SWPadnos> 4 days later, it was ready to rock and roll!
[06:01:15] <sed_> yea basicly
[06:01:28] <sed_> but the BDI install coulnt get past the hardware...
[06:01:31] <sed_> on boot
[06:01:47] <SWPadnos> BDI or Ubuntu?
[06:02:08] <sed_> BDI.. it was a while I dont remember what exatly, but that is what I did to fix it
[06:02:10] <SWPadnos> (seems a silly question, but the Ubuntu CD isn't the same as the BDI CD)
[06:02:45] <sed_> I built it on a machine that the BDI stand alone CD wouldnt work on.. so I did the install script, then took it to the computer at work
[06:02:48] <sed_> on the mill
[06:02:54] <SWPadnos> cool
[06:02:55] <sed_> with generic vga drivers
[06:04:03] <sed_> the linux part I sorta get... cuz of my Unix back ground.. but I have never actualy set up a mill.. its was may boss that did the one at work
[06:04:41] <SWPadnos> unfortunately, there aren't really any user friendly tools for setting up complex machines
[06:05:01] <SWPadnos> unelss you consider the classicladder interface user friendly
[06:05:14] <sed_> he wants to set up emc2 so that the baldor amplifiers will do servo tuning..
[06:05:45] <SWPadnos> I don't think there's any support in EMC2 for talking to those drives
[06:06:03] <sed_> I have no clue...
[06:06:19] <sed_> im still trying to understand how every thing wokrs..
[06:06:21] <SWPadnos> well, I wouldn't want you to upgrade looking for a feature that doesn't exist
[06:06:36] <sed_> he hates stepper motor machines and wont even concider one..
[06:06:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[06:06:57] <sed_> but I cant afford 30k-200k for one..
[06:07:07] <SWPadnos> the tuning tools are much better with EMC2 (there's a built-in oscilloscope, for example), but it won't use any smarts in the drive
[06:07:17] <SWPadnos> you can get a good CNC for <10K
[06:07:31] <sed_> with servo motors and linear scales?
[06:07:38] <SWPadnos> good enough for most things you could do with a Bridgeport-size machine
[06:07:49] <SWPadnos> no scales, but I think you could do servos at that price
[06:08:06] <sed_> well I am looking at the seig, is it better than that?
[06:08:14] <SWPadnos> yes
[06:08:20] <sed_> who makes it?
[06:08:25] <SWPadnos> Tormach
[06:08:29] <SWPadnos> the PCNC1100
[06:08:46] <SWPadnos> disclaimer: they recently hired me to go out there and make an EMC2 config for their machine
[06:08:49] <sed_> yea I have seen that one.. was concidering it.. thought it was stepper and very similar to the seig
[06:09:11] <SWPadnos> it is a stepper machine by default, but I think you can buy it with servos or no motors
[06:09:22] <SWPadnos> I'm not positive though
[06:09:27] <sed_> if your doing the config that could sway me to saving an extra 3k to buy it
[06:09:50] <sed_> well with stepper motors wouldnt you need some type of encoder?
[06:09:53] <SWPadnos> it should be done by the end of Fest - I need to write a component or two and I haven't gotten to it yet
[06:10:01] <sed_> er servo rather
[06:10:01] <SWPadnos> yes, if you want feedback :)
[06:10:08] <SWPadnos> yes
[06:10:24] <sed_> can you just count with server like a stepper?
[06:10:25] <SWPadnos> you would also probably want to use an interface card of some sort, rather than their stock parallel port
[06:10:29] <sed_> servo
[06:10:45] <SWPadnos> if you use Gecko or other step-to-servo drives, yes (more or less)
[06:10:53] <sed_> there machine is like 8k right?
[06:11:08] <SWPadnos> close to it, I think ($6xxx)
[06:11:21] <SWPadnos> 6800
[06:11:57] <sed_> it is a nicer machine than the Seig... but not 3k nicer than their new X4
[06:12:11] <sed_> from what I have read.. in your opinion what makes it better?
[06:12:17] <SWPadnos> I haven't seen a SIeg in action
[06:12:40] <sed_> the Tormach looks much more professional
[06:13:11] <SWPadnos> the Tormach is capable of doing some pretty big cuts - I think they were playing with a 1" cutter, 0.25 depth, something like 40IPM in aluminum
[06:13:24] <sed_> thats cool..
[06:14:13] <SWPadnos> they actually engineer their stuff - if something doesn't work the way they want, they go back to the drawing board (or to a different supplier) to get something that does what they want
[06:14:46] <sed_> thats a pluss
[06:14:50] <SWPadnos> I'm definitely biased because I saw them in action though - I don't know how different Sieg is
[06:17:24] <sed_> hmm I wonder if they have a distributor in california
[06:17:31] <sed_> it certenly is a bigger machine
[06:17:54] <sed_> and if your writing the config...................
[06:18:14] <SWPadnos> they have a list of owners who are willing to show the machine. give them a call and ask where you can get a demo
[06:18:19] <SWPadnos> it's about 800 pounds I think
[06:19:36] <SWPadnos> they do constrain themselves by requiring that the machine be able to run with Mach. It may be possible to get something else (even a second parallel port) and get extra features
[06:19:45] <sed_> I live in Hawaii, if they had Free or discounted delivery in california, I could probably get it here for 150 bucks..
[06:19:48] <SWPadnos> but I haven't done any experimentation with that (and I don't have a machine)
[06:20:17] <sed_> get them to give you one :)
[06:20:18] <SWPadnos> they may have users in Hawai'i
[06:20:22] <SWPadnos> love to ;)
[06:20:27] <SWPadnos> then again, I have a Bridgeport
[06:20:38] <sed_> more gooder..
[06:20:59] <SWPadnos> where are you in Hawai'i
[06:21:00] <SWPadnos> ?
[06:21:07] <sed_> Maui
[06:21:13] <SWPadnos> what part?
[06:21:18] <sed_> Kihei
[06:21:20] <SWPadnos> (nice island - haven't been there in a while)
[06:21:36] <SWPadnos> hmmm. northern part of the southeast "lobe"?
[06:21:36] <sed_> I havent left in a while... heh
[06:21:48] <sed_> lobe?
[06:22:07] <SWPadnos> uh - the lower right part - not the area where the west Maui mountains are
[06:22:36] <sed_> I work there.. in wailuku.. that is where the Maho is
[06:23:24] <SWPadnos> ok - I think we drove around and went through Kihei when we were there
[06:23:30] <SWPadnos> stayed at a B&B in Keokea
[06:23:56] <SWPadnos> (though you can't get there directly I think - had to go through Kahului
[06:23:56] <sed_> what do you do with your bridgeport?
[06:23:58] <SWPadnos> )
[06:24:01] <SWPadnos> not much
[06:24:09] <SWPadnos> one day, I'll retrofit it so it's a CNC :)
[06:24:23] <sed_> yea I drive thru kahului every day..
[06:24:39] <sed_> is it your hobby or profession?
[06:25:07] <SWPadnos> well, it's supposed to be part of my profession, but I never made the product line I was going to need it for
[06:25:34] <SWPadnos> once I get it CNC'ed, it will be useful for making prototype doodads
[06:26:10] <sed_> I do machine work to support an optics shop (telescopes insturments... yada)
[06:26:20] <SWPadnos> cool
[06:27:00] <sed_> I have a mini machine shop at home... 13" lathe small bench mill.. saws, welders..ect..
[06:27:16] <SWPadnos> heh - Kahekili Highway
[06:27:24] <SWPadnos> not much of a highway, really :)
[06:27:28] <SWPadnos> nice
[06:27:32] <sed_> just got into CNC a few years ago.. still learning..
[06:27:46] <SWPadnos> I nearly had a great deal on a Hardinge HNC, but it slipped away
[06:28:04] <sed_> they just finished the mokulele highway.. lanes now and not under watter when it rains.. (bonus)
[06:28:21] <SWPadnos> me too - I've used them for brief periods over the years, but I'm a programmer/EE, not an ME or machinist
[06:28:39] <sed_> I love the Maho at work.. its a fairly big horizontal mill and will fit under a 7' ceeling
[06:28:42] <SWPadnos> I think I see the little town (if you could call it that) where we stopped for lemonade
[06:29:18] <SWPadnos> by Kahakuloa Bay
[06:29:37] <sed_> how many years ago?
[06:29:45] <SWPadnos> 10
[06:30:01] <sed_> was it kind of boonie back then.. cuz it is sure built up now..
[06:31:26] <SWPadnos> that drive around the mountains was definitely a bit out of the way
[06:31:42] <sed_> yea kinda dry compaird to the hana side
[06:31:48] <SWPadnos> the road still looks like it's 1.3 lanes or so (total for both directions)
[06:31:50] <SWPadnos> heh
[06:32:06] <SWPadnos> we went back last year, but only to Oahu
[06:33:10] <sed_> hmm the Tormach is tall... 60 inches.... dosent look that big..
[06:33:25] <SWPadnos> I wonder if that's including the stand/
[06:33:26] <SWPadnos> >
[06:33:28] <SWPadnos> ?
[06:33:44] <sed_> heh, then the dude in the demo picture is short...
[06:33:54] <SWPadnos> he's about average ;)
[06:34:14] <SWPadnos> most of the photos show one of the standsthough
[06:35:03] <sed_> 1100lbs
[06:37:24] <SWPadnos> indeed. good thing I didn't have to move any
[06:37:27] <sed_> it does say shipping dememtions are 60" hight....
[06:38:06] <SWPadnos> so it does. I wonder why
[06:38:35] <sed_> they may stack the electrical box on top or somthing..
[06:38:45] <sed_> that mill only looks 3-4 feet tall
[06:39:09] <SWPadnos> http://www.tormach.com/document_library/D40148_MachineSize.pdf
[06:39:59] <sed_> wow it is that big..
[06:40:24] <SWPadnos> yeah, it's good sized
[06:40:55] <SWPadnos> I guess the stands are shorter than they seem - the ones in their lab had the chip catcher and stiff, so the machine base may have been lower that it looked
[06:40:56] <sed_> crap I had a stand for it... now may have to re-concider..
[06:41:03] <sed_> it will clear my roof by 2"
[06:41:15] <sed_> I could saw it down..
[06:41:18] <SWPadnos> 1100 pounds + motion = hefty stand
[06:42:11] <sed_> 4 legs 4x6x3/16 box tubing with half inch steel plate for table..
[06:42:37] <SWPadnos> that should do it, if you have additional tubing cross-members
[06:42:51] <SWPadnos> the plate would flex (even though it's thick)
[06:43:18] <sed_> I can bust out the welder if need be.. heh
[06:43:27] <SWPadnos> though the base is pretty small, so maybe you wouldn't need the corss pieces - I dunno
[06:44:01] <SWPadnos> funny - they don't tell you the width of the base on those drawings
[06:44:15] <SWPadnos> or the bolt pattern
[06:44:31] <sed_> heh I just noticed that..
[06:45:12] <sed_> the stand is 21" wide and just slightly wider than the base..
[06:45:19] <SWPadnos> yep
[06:46:22] <sed_> my stand is 18x24... may have to beef it up..
[06:46:57] <SWPadnos> well, I wouldn't buy one of these on my recommendation - definitely look around and see what you need
[06:48:18] <sed_> well its bigger than the Syil
[06:48:24] <sed_> dono if I can afford it...
[06:48:39] <sed_> I can get 4 axis with the syil for 5k
[06:49:38] <SWPadnos> yeah, it's definitely more expensive
[06:51:19] <SWPadnos> well, it's officially past my bedtime. good night
[06:51:41] <sed_> gnite and thanks for the help
[06:51:48] <SWPadnos> sure
[06:53:00] <sed_> 15.74x6.29x14.96 and Tormach is 18x9.5x16.25
[06:53:07] <sed_> hmm
[06:57:58] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Not sure who is making the X4 for syil - I have heard that since Seig is now producing there own CNC machine that they are less coopretive with there competitor.
[06:59:48] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Syil machines have most the ballscrew mounts and conversion parts made by wire EDM.
[07:00:01] <SkullWorks_PGAB> in steel.
[07:01:57] <SkullWorks_PGAB> the Syil has a much weaker head and spindle drive.
[07:04:02] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I wish Tormach sold the machine as an option without the stepper motors and drivers.
[07:09:38] <tomp2> look at the smithy machines? they had a nice mill when they hosted the fest several yrs ago. i think it can be gotten w/o cnc, w/o motors
[07:13:22] <sed_> I dont have the time to convert a machine.. thought the Syil was the best for the money.. but if I am only 2k away from the TorMach it may be the way to go
[07:13:32] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Smithy is selling the Seig CNC'd X3 as one of there models now
[07:14:08] <sed_> Seig better than whoever is making the Syil machines?
[07:14:28] <SkullWorks_PGAB> The Tormach spindle is by far the best
[07:14:49] <sed_> K, I guess I gotta sell more machines...
[07:15:01] <sed_> anyone wana buy a Sioux valve grinder..... heh...
[07:15:01] <SkullWorks_PGAB> All but the X4 are made by seig and converted by Syil
[07:15:35] <sed_> has the X4 made inprovments on the spindle? or still crappy compaird to Tormach?
[07:16:16] <SkullWorks_PGAB> the X4 appears to be only a slightly stretched X3
[07:16:47] <SkullWorks_PGAB> about 1" more X .5" Y - same Z
[07:16:53] <sed_> yea I wish it has the same travel as the tormach.. 6.3 inches on the y is kinda lame
[07:17:51] <SkullWorks_PGAB> also to get those travels the Y axis is hanging off the ends of the ways at each end.
[07:18:07] <sed_> ewww.
[07:18:14] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Trust me - I have the X3
[07:18:25] <sed_> what do you think of it?
[07:19:06] <SkullWorks_PGAB> a Tormach would eat it for breakfast
[07:19:11] <sed_> if you had 5k to spend would you beg borrow and steal the rest for a Tormach?
[07:19:13] <sed_> hmm
[07:19:33] <SkullWorks_PGAB> the X3 comes with a 2 speed geared head - very loud
[07:19:51] <SkullWorks_PGAB> top speed in high is 2000
[07:20:22] <sed_> 45 on the tormach...
[07:20:37] <SkullWorks_PGAB> its a DC motor and the OEM speed control is known to blow the FETs rather often
[07:21:09] <sed_> so whats the deal with stepper versus servo.. if yo had linear encoders on each.. would one be better?
[07:22:03] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I'm biased to servos - I run big iron at high speed - steppers don't do that
[07:22:35] <SkullWorks_PGAB> but steppers are just fine for hobby class machines
[07:23:33] <SkullWorks_PGAB> having scales would just give you a backup to know that your program completed without loosing position.
[07:23:46] <SkullWorks_PGAB> ie lost steps
[07:24:30] <sed_> yea, so no scales and counting steps would be ok for a prototype/small production shop?
[07:25:16] <SkullWorks_PGAB> the very first machine I ran was stepper - a Bridgeport with Bandit control.
[07:25:29] <SkullWorks_PGAB> rapid was 100ipm
[07:25:44] <sed_> hmm
[07:26:09] <sed_> my boss hates stepper motors.. wont even concider them
[07:26:18] <SkullWorks_PGAB> depends on how critical things are
[07:27:14] <sed_> crap gotta put kid to bed.. hopfuly she will fall asleep fast... brb
[07:32:57] <SkullWorks_PGAB> If I had it to do over I would have passed on the X3 and tried to buy a Tormach without the steppers and drives - then fit servos and use EMC2 - the High/low AC spindle with VFD on the Tormach is its best feature. The delux stand is big and expensive but matches the machine perfectly - worth every penny.
[07:58:50] <sed_> dont servo's, amplifiers and encoders cost so much more than steppers, it would be in the noise to start out with steppers and upgrade to servos at a later date?
[08:30:41] <Zarquon> Zarquon is now known as Valerian
[09:14:46] <Valerian> Where am I likely to get tripped up, if I were to wire this up to emc?
[09:14:51] <Valerian> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VARIABLE-SPD-DOVETAIL-MINI-MILLING-DRILLING-MACHINE_W0QQitemZ380031378278QQihZ025QQcategoryZ105827QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[09:48:45] <micges> is it possible to two modules have opened NML command channel at the same time ?
[09:49:36] <micges> python modules like emcmodule.cc
[10:23:30] <alex_joni> micges: it should
[10:23:44] <alex_joni> but you might get synchronization issues ..
[10:23:58] <alex_joni> (btw, AXIS is using at least 2 NML channels iirc)
[10:24:38] <alex_joni> Valerian: depends what you want to connect
[10:25:00] <alex_joni> I don't see any motors for CNC on it
[10:25:15] <alex_joni> spindle control is also not controllable..
[10:25:25] <alex_joni> so you'll have a bit of work to make it a real CNC machine
[10:25:33] <micges> alex_joni: axis is using command channel and status channel ?
[10:25:45] <alex_joni> otoh, I'm not sure how much backlash it has, or how good the screws are
[10:25:54] <alex_joni> micges: it uses 2 of status I think
[10:26:09] <alex_joni> it might also be 2 of command, but I don't really remember
[10:26:33] <micges> ok thanks
[10:28:47] <alex_joni> micges: basicly you need a different message id
[15:36:17] <Kohlsva> http://youtube.com/watch?v=XV-7J5y1TQc programing the pdp11 must been fun.
[16:10:54] <jmkasunich> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqPTOb31S8&feature=related
[16:12:40] <alex_joni> lol
[16:26:58] <gezr> hey, what happened to the ngc.vim file I put up like 8 years ago?
[16:27:13] <jmkasunich> dunno, where did you put it?
[16:27:24] <gezr> I cant remember It was a long time ago
[16:27:40] <gezr> I can look to see where it was, nobody at the time was really interested in it at all
[16:28:24] <gezr> looks like this new guys file is a lot more robust
[16:33:59] <renesis_> omg there is rs274 for vim?
[16:34:13] <gezr> there has been one for 8 or so years
[16:34:14] <renesis_> waow
[16:34:28] <gezr> just a highlight file, and it doesnt work perfectly
[16:34:30] <renesis_> yes well i am rather uninformed
[16:34:35] <renesis_> oh
[16:34:36] <gezr> this new one seems a bit better
[16:34:40] <renesis_> neat
[16:37:18] <Roguish> Hey all, what would the 'typical' axes designations be for a vertical turret lathe? x,z,c?
[16:42:29] <jmkasunich> I would think same as a regular lathe
[16:42:48] <gezr> I think thats right, ive seen c used as a y on one that was able machine pockets and stuff where the head had live tooling
[16:43:05] <BigJohnT> is it not just a lathe standing on the headstock?
[16:43:29] <BigJohnT> here is a little one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rockford1.JPG
[16:44:00] <jmkasunich> in that pic, Z is vertical, X is horizontal
[16:44:01] <Roguish> i have a large rotary table with a vertical column. on the column the spindle travels up/down and in/out.
[16:44:30] <Roguish> vertical column is next to table, not on it.
[16:44:44] <Roguish> all 3 are independent.
[16:53:45] <alex_joni> gezr: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2004/2004-12-27.txt
[16:54:37] <gezr> yeah, I found my copy I last edited in 2002, and sent it to the list for Gary to use
[16:55:07] <gezr> alex_joni: thank you. that was the only real work I ever did on my own for emc
[16:56:20] <gezr> found another link from a guy named dead puppy looking for one as well
[16:56:59] <gezr> that maybe be Gary hehe, I dont know
[17:15:37] <rayh> I remember trying it and saw that it worked but I don't like vim so forgot it.
[17:16:13] <gezr> yeah, that is why I let it die, nobody had any intrest :
[17:16:17] <gezr> )
[17:18:00] <rayh> About that time I tried a highlighter for kwrite.
[17:18:07] <rayh> but didn't like it either.
[17:18:28] <gezr> I tried making one for midnight commander that was just frustrating
[17:18:57] <rayh> I'll bet.
[17:19:22] <rayh> MC was one of Paul's BDI includes.
[17:19:25] <gezr> maybe I can tie something into what im trying to learn in school and make an editor
[17:19:39] <rayh> So I used it for emergency stuff during that time.
[17:19:51] <gezr> let me find a link really quick
[17:20:12] <rayh> k
[17:20:24] <gezr> http://www.mathbin.net/desktop_application.html
[17:20:52] <gezr> Im probably going to begin working on that for math, but maybe something like that with a box, to pick g and m codes type editor...I dont really know
[17:21:46] <gezr> its not conversational if it just opens boxes for whatever, or maybe make it like the editor in netbeans
[17:22:05] <gezr> where if you type in a G a box appears in which a dropdown box can be used if needed
[17:22:32] <gezr> but to be honest, ide rather make some conversational like boxes
[17:25:37] <gezr> but a simple editor for emc could make a good first year undergad project
[17:26:15] <rayh> First year?
[17:26:34] <gezr> yeah, untill I finish up summer school, im technically a freshman
[17:27:52] <gezr> what do you think, should I start on a simple editor as a project and a way to learn more stuff?
[17:28:25] <rayh> The idea of using java here is a good one.
[17:29:03] <gezr> I dont know java, may not be a bad idea to learn it or Csharp for it. that may give me a bit of an edge
[17:29:06] <rayh> If the gcode edit page is in there then geometric or conversational things can be added in.
[17:29:24] <gezr> yeah thats sorta what I was starting to think
[17:29:53] <rayh> In fact you might look at the way we add scripts to the tcl interfaces.
[17:30:16] <gezr> I would have to call someone for that, if someone was willing
[17:30:34] <gezr> a lot of the code in emc right now is super complex for me
[17:30:39] <rayh> If there is a file with the .tcl extension in a specific directory it adds that base name to the menu.
[17:30:51] <gezr> hmm
[17:31:39] <rayh> That way you can add abilities without any change to the main editor.
[17:32:14] <rayh> Do we have the ability under linux to work with C#
[17:33:06] <rayh> I'd be happy to test your code and offer comments.
[17:33:19] <gezr> I think we do
[17:33:59] <rayh> It would be really neat to have a graphical display in there also.
[17:34:11] <rayh> As you write the code it draws the path.
[17:34:22] <gezr> yeah :
[17:34:29] <gezr> have you ever seen netbeans?
[17:34:38] <gezr> http://wiki.netbeans.org/InstallingNetbeansOnDebian4.0
[17:35:14] <gezr> im going to have to clean my desk up and put a head on my linux box
[17:35:24] <rayh> Someone else recommended netbeans to me the other day.
[17:35:43] <gezr> I have .net and netbeans on my win box,
[17:35:59] <gezr> I guess I could do it on mywin box, since it all ties into cygwin
[17:40:23] <gezr> yeah, ill see what I can do with notepad++ source
[17:41:03] <rayh> I see a openjdk packages in hardy so that should not be a problem.
[17:42:49] <rayh> bbiab
[18:30:45] <gefink> alex_joni: now i know who is accessing the cdromdriver. Its HAL (not the hal from rtai)
[18:31:08] <gefink> after /etc/init.d/hal stop
[18:31:29] <gezr> hmm, some sort of auto check to see if a new disk, oh wait
[18:31:30] <gefink> i have no latency problem
[18:31:32] <gezr> automounter
[18:31:35] <gezr> maybe?
[18:32:18] <gefink> yes. The usb-part works good, but the cdrom-stuff gives latency 9000000
[18:32:41] <gezr> yeah probably related to an autoplay or scan for new disk type thing
[18:32:47] <gezr> did you have a cdrom in the drive?
[18:33:04] <gefink> no CD
[18:33:19] <gezr> would you be interested in trying again with a cd in the drive?
[18:33:30] <gezr> maybe just a music disk
[18:33:42] <gefink> good idea, but im not on this box
[18:33:53] <gezr> no big deal, just something to try when you can
[18:34:00] <gefink> yes
[18:34:14] <gefink> but i dont need automount....
[18:34:44] <gezr> narrow down the problem first, that way, the specific "turn this off" can be installed
[18:35:08] <gezr> to turn something in /etc/init.d off just type this in, chmod -x offendingthing
[18:35:42] <SWPadnos> re: C# on Linux - gcc should be able to compile it, but there may be dependencies on mono to make a program actually run
[18:35:44] <gezr> that way, even though the other scripts may have it set to start, it will not execute
[18:35:58] <SWPadnos> though that could be just for .net support - I haven't bothered to look into it too far
[18:36:06] <gezr> SWPadnos: thanks
[18:36:21] <gefink> good idea. maybe i find thee config to disable only cdrom
[18:36:49] <SWPadnos> gezr, sure. my personal preference would be to stay away from java or anything else that has a big runtime environment
[18:36:59] <SWPadnos> (though that might also eliminate python ;) )
[18:37:21] <gezr> well, Ill probably end up using c c++
[18:37:37] <gezr> I dont really like runtime things that much myself
[18:40:14] <anonimasu> c# is nice, as you can use any c++/c library with it
[18:40:19] <anonimasu> or dll functions very easily
[18:40:58] <anonimasu> (hence why there are GTK bindings for mono)
[18:41:52] <Rugludallur> Just a quick thought, has anyone thought of compiling any of the emc stuff for CUDA ?
[18:44:09] <Rugludallur> GPU's being massive parallel processors are pretty good at realtime stuff to begin with
[18:45:43] <gezr> as in using a graphics card to drive motors?
[18:47:11] <Rugludallur> gezr: more like runnings parts of EMC on the graphics card (GPU) rather than the CPU
[18:47:39] <gezr> yeah, that would be a really fast method
[18:48:08] <gezr> I dont think the video card would have an input type line though
[18:48:27] <gezr> maybe use something like an sli type card, where inputs come in on the sli line?
[18:48:45] <Rugludallur> gezr: you don't really need to input into the gpu
[18:49:00] <gezr> positioning feedback
[18:49:00] <Rugludallur> gezr: you use the cpu to feed data to the gpu and output it to which ever ports you want
[18:49:09] <gezr> oh, hmm
[18:49:28] <gezr> I dont know, sounds really fast though
[18:49:32] <Rugludallur> gezr: the cpu offloads hard work to the gpu
[18:50:20] <anonimasu> the problem is that this is all very experimental
[18:50:27] <gezr> http://superwinds.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-using-gpus-to-calculate-physics.html
[18:50:34] <anonimasu> and there are no easy tools for programming the gpu to do that kind of stuff yet
[18:50:49] <anonimasu> and no standard for it yet
[18:50:50] <anonimasu> :/
[18:51:22] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: only the nvidia tools but that includes a modified GNU C compiler so it should not be to much work
[18:51:27] <gezr> http://www.stanford.edu/group/pandegroup/folding/FAQ-ATI.html
[18:51:47] <anonimasu> there are physics card too (ageia)
[18:52:25] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: nvidia bought them and ported to cuda
[18:52:49] <anonimasu> ah nice
[18:52:50] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: and Havoc is owned by intel which intend to use the cpu so as of now there are no longer any dedicated physics cards :(
[18:52:51] <anonimasu> I didnt know that
[18:53:12] <anonimasu> hm, I'd rather see a general purpose programable chip
[18:53:14] <anonimasu> on each mobo..
[18:53:19] <anonimasu> that you could stuff special things into
[18:53:53] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: probably what we will see is a combination of gpu/cpu style cores on multiple or single dies
[18:53:59] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[18:55:02] <gezr> hre is a good article on cuda http://www.behardware.com/articles/678-2/nvidia-cuda-practical-uses.html
[18:55:42] <gezr> a nice thunderstorm is on its way to my place :(
[18:56:39] <Rugludallur> gezr: hmm time to rig up that weather machine
[18:58:28] <gezr> just need to close the garrage door down some
[19:06:59] <BigJohnT> hmmm it's starting to rumble here
[19:07:30] <gezr> its south of you John
[19:08:17] <BigJohnT> there is some building to the west at this moment
[19:08:29] <gezr> hmm
[19:08:32] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT looks at the weather map to see if it shows
[19:08:54] <gezr> the humidity outside is almost unbearable right now
[19:09:09] <BigJohnT> yep a little bitty one just to the west of me
[19:11:12] <BigJohnT> yep, better go batten down the hatches
[19:17:23] <gezr> neat, its almost dark outside
[19:17:44] <BigJohnT> here too
[19:20:18] <gezr> wow, its raining really really really hard here right now
[20:40:47] <gezr> I should have bought a surface plate back when I had the moneyu
[20:44:37] <gezr> im going to do some shapping, I guess if I make a mistake ill have to buy more aluminum, but no point in mind humpping the task
[20:44:48] <alex_joni> good night all
[20:44:53] <pjm_> gn
[20:44:55] <pjm_> evening all
[20:44:56] <gezr> gn alex
[20:45:25] <gezr> sup pjm_
[20:45:46] <pjm_> oh not much, been working some more on building my cnc today
[20:46:12] <gezr> nice, I just scratched some outline lines in my 3x3 base block, about to grind a cutter to get after it
[20:46:42] <pjm_> i decided to make some wooden mockups so i can see how the Z mounting etc is gonna work
[20:47:07] <pjm_> also will probably end up counter weighting the Z
[20:47:23] <pjm_> as its gonna be a hefty lump once all the metalwork is added to the slide etc
[20:48:29] <pjm_> plus it looks like i'm gonna have to eventually replace the Y leadscrew as there is 4 thou of slop that i cant adjust out
[20:49:45] <gezr> oh yeah
[20:53:11] <dmess> hi all
[20:53:40] <pjm_> howdy
[21:01:34] <dasvt> hey
[21:08:56] <gezr> hmm, can key stock be heat treated?
[21:09:33] <Sweeper> gezr: I'm sure you could heat treat it. as for the effectiveness :P
[21:10:11] <gezr> well, its the only 1/4 1/4 stuff I have to make a bit out of, we shall see, i got it chery red, and did the oil dip, who knows
[21:12:10] <dasvt> don't you have on old drill bit?
[21:14:43] <fenn> key stock is designed to be soft so it will shear easily - i really doubt it is hardenable
[21:15:36] <fenn> are you making a shaper bit?
[21:16:51] <fenn> you could use an old cold chisel or punch maybe
[21:17:47] <fenn> how did you end up with a shaper and no bits?
[21:18:24] <dmess> its low carbon steel... your euchered..
[21:18:45] <dmess> you just made it black... not hard
[21:22:26] <dmess> you could carburize it and then maybe get a .03" case hard to abour Rc 50 or so
[21:41:25] <gezr> yeah that sucked as a cutter
[21:41:38] <gezr> plus my grind job wasnt very good but it did what I wanted it to do
[21:42:28] <dmess> whatever... if all you need is a hammer any old rock will do...
[21:42:41] <gezr> hahahah, yep
[21:43:01] <gezr> I just wanted to get a grove cut into the screw recess, and the rough outcropings of the ways
[21:43:45] <dmess> cast iron??
[21:43:51] <gezr> aluminum
[21:44:01] <dmess> even better
[21:44:03] <gezr> should I try and upload a pic?
[21:44:17] <dmess> pastebin
[21:48:09] <fenn> imagebin.org, pastebin won't work for images
[21:48:41] <dmess> sorry... yes.. you are correct
[21:49:50] <gezr> http://imagebin.ca/view/EoCurwW6.html
[21:49:58] <gezr> critique please
[21:51:56] <fenn> what's going to slide in that groove?
[21:52:38] <fenn> and i'm not sure the stepper is big enough to turn that screw :)
[21:52:47] <gezr> nothing, thats just the channel for the screw
[21:53:03] <gezr> I agree fenn, this is just a "fun" project
[21:53:26] <gezr> sugar cube machining
[21:53:28] <fenn> what size screw is that?
[21:53:41] <gezr> 1/4 20
[21:55:19] <gezr> im shooting for .010 positioning
[21:55:43] <gezr> and its going to have backlash galore
[21:56:01] <fenn> you should try to make an anti-backlash nut
[21:56:10] <fenn> it might actually be useful then
[21:56:14] <gezr> thats what the 2 nuts are for, but the motor floats
[21:56:44] <fenn> you're going to use gibs for the ways right?
[21:57:06] <gezr> no gibs, just .001-.002 interference fit
[21:57:26] <fenn> hmm.. well, when you get tired of the slop, put some gibs in :)
[21:57:43] <gezr> the motor is strong enough to turn the screw, that much I know, or remember from testing
[21:57:59] <tom1> what keeps the floating motor from turning?
[21:58:11] <fenn> sliding aluminum on aluminum will gall up eventually
[21:58:41] <gezr> coat of oil, It's not going to be a real machine in terms of abilities, but just something fun I can do at home
[22:00:14] <gezr> in terms of size, a 12 inch table is moved by a 3 inch or so motor, so a 1" table should be able to be moved by a 1" motor
[22:00:20] <gezr> or 3/4" motor
[22:00:29] <tom1> "´╗┐thats what the 2 nuts are for" gonna put a spring between them?
[22:00:38] <gezr> yeah, a small light spring
[22:01:00] <fenn> but you have to size the screw properly, it can't be too big or too coarse
[22:01:10] <gezr> I agree
[22:01:18] <gezr> its just for fun
[22:01:32] <gezr> but its going to be just as frustrating as a big one
[22:01:45] <fenn> it's going to be more frustrating because you're under-engineering things
[22:02:05] <tom1> read K'zan's experiences
[22:02:25] <gezr> Im aware of the pitfalls here, the point is to have something that moves
[22:02:50] <tom1> ok, then make 1 slide, study a while, then make other slides
[22:02:52] <gezr> the only thing ive done with emc over the past 10 years is make motors spin, this is a step forward
[22:03:00] <gezr> I have a nice big plotter slide made
[22:03:22] <gezr> using a ball rail and a 1/2 10 acme screw
[22:03:30] <tom1> cool, then go for the tiny machine as a study
[22:04:28] <gezr> I mean, I would like to make a real machine, but I didnt do it when I had the money, out of fears, and this little project has had a lot of thought put into it, I want to under engineer it but the point is to actualy do something
[22:04:42] <gezr> dont want to under
[22:05:19] <tom1> np, have fun... i'm looking at a small machine too, just not that small. as 'small' approaches a point, the acceptable error is way smaller than a point ;)
[22:06:27] <gezr> even the limit switches are going to be painfull to put in place
[22:06:49] <fenn> smd switches? :P
[22:07:29] <gezr> was thinking a reed type switch. drilling a hole in from the side, and having 2 bare wires poking out?
[22:08:02] <gezr> maybe a smd switch is the same thing, I dont know
[22:08:13] <fenn> i found a mouse with these tiny lever switches just like a standard microswitch but about 1/4" by 3/8"
[22:08:17] <micges> how to link param to pin in hal ?
[22:08:39] <cradek> edit source, changing param to pin, then link the pins together
[22:08:47] <gezr> fenn : I completely agree with you on the worthlessness of this project. but its all ive got
[22:09:00] <anonimasu> it
[22:09:05] <anonimasu> it's a nice size of a machine :)
[22:09:21] <fenn> you could make decorative shirt buttons
[22:09:41] <anonimasu> yep
[22:09:50] <micges> I want to read axis.0.joint-cmd-vel param into pyvcp edit
[22:10:51] <micges> in which file is source for axis.n.params exports ?
[22:11:07] <SWPadnos> src/motion/motion.c maybe
[22:11:15] <SWPadnos> err - src/emc/motion...
[22:11:40] <anonimasu> I'd love a 4x8dm cnc lathe :)
[22:12:38] <dmess> ive run some sweet machines in that volume
[22:13:31] <anonimasu> that's just big enough to make real parts
[22:13:55] <anonimasu> im planning on a lathe that big :p
[22:14:41] <anonimasu> linear slides + steel base
[22:14:45] <fenn> cnc fonly
[22:14:52] <anonimasu> what?
[22:14:58] <anonimasu> cnc only ? yeah
[22:15:07] <fenn> "ah, 'fonly i had a lathe"
[22:15:21] <anonimasu> I see
[22:15:29] <dmess> me too
[22:15:33] <fenn> http://www.btinternet.com/~two.mm/articles/fonly/fonlypt1b.htm
[22:15:40] <anonimasu> a cnc lathe is more useful then a cnc mill :p for making things cnc
[22:15:47] <anonimasu> (imo)
[22:16:49] <dmess> you make a mill with a lahte and a shaper if you do ith old fashioned way... you make the lathe 1st bcz its the simplest
[22:17:09] <anonimasu> uh, you buy a lathe, then you retrofit a mill
[22:17:13] <anonimasu> :p
[22:17:13] <fenn> i think making the shaper first is the best way of boostrapping
[22:17:26] <anonimasu> I want to make parts -_-
[22:17:29] <fenn> then you only have to laboriously hand-scrape the ways once
[22:18:11] <fenn> anonimasu: why not just farm out the machining?
[22:18:15] <anonimasu> suddenly purchasing linear slides feels like a great idea
[22:18:20] <dmess> ok shaper 1st... good point..
[22:18:39] <fenn> er.. outsource
[22:18:43] <micges> cradek: thanks make warnings 1 time but it works
[22:18:43] <anonimasu> fenn: I'm cheap I cant afford that
[22:18:47] <fenn> hah
[22:19:05] <micges> SWPadnos: thanks it works
[22:19:13] <SWPadnos> excellent
[22:19:17] <anonimasu> fenn: over here workers actually get paid.. so machinetime is expensive
[22:19:21] <anonimasu> really expensive
[22:19:29] <dmess> defeats the purpose of if you want it done right you've got to do it yourself... and you know what you have when you make it yourself..
[22:19:44] <fenn> somehow that doesnt really compute.. workers are paid, so machines are expensive?
[22:20:00] <micges> SWPandos: someone told me that but I ask again: why are the params and pins not only pins ?
[22:20:06] <anonimasu> fenn: uh, machinetime is expensive because the people running them make money too
[22:20:21] <dmess> our shop rate is over 500 bucks an hour..
[22:20:37] <anonimasu> holy crap.
[22:20:41] <anonimasu> now that's worse..
[22:20:41] <dmess> with the burben added
[22:20:48] <BigJohnT> damm I gotta bump up my shop rate
[22:20:59] <dmess> burden
[22:21:06] <BigJohnT> whats the converstion to redneck dollars
[22:21:25] <SWPadnos> turdy seven gazillion tuh wun
[22:21:30] <anonimasu> it's about 70 eur here a hour
[22:21:36] <dmess> 600 ppl on the books... 110 in the machine shops... MAKING the $$$
[22:22:00] <dmess> 1:1
[22:22:08] <micges> SWPadnos:someone told me that but I ask again: why are the params and pins not only pins ?
[22:22:11] <dmess> im in Canada
[22:22:26] <SWPadnos> micges, the original idea was that parameters don't change often, so the data doesn't need to move around as much as signal/pin data does
[22:22:38] <tom1> micges: its an old decision, and the idea of only pins is becoming popular
[22:23:18] <SWPadnos> ideally, we'd have callbacks that get called when a parameter changes, rather than having the RT code check for parameter changes every time through, and sometimes do extra calculations if something has changed
[22:24:08] <SWPadnos> (at least that's ideal in my opinion :) )
[22:24:37] <micges> cool idea
[22:25:00] <micges> problem is that valuable infos for me are only in params
[22:25:02] <SWPadnos> there are others that have been floated around, but we haven't really dug in to implement them
[22:25:06] <micges> like vel
[22:25:20] <SWPadnos> vel from the TP?
[22:25:28] <tom1> static info, just want to accessit from hal
[22:25:57] <micges> vel--cmd for axes
[22:26:09] <SWPadnos> ah, vector velocity
[22:26:17] <tom1> oh, not static, variable
[22:26:20] <SWPadnos> argh. my mouse is being weird. if I get disconnected, you know Windows sucks
[22:26:42] <tom1> usb mouse can be dscnxd
[22:27:07] <SWPadnos> phew, it worked :)
[22:27:33] <SWPadnos> hey, and the mouse may have just needed a reboot
[22:27:52] <tom1> review the 'banned commercial' early this morning :)
[22:28:17] <SWPadnos> one of the microsoft "security" ones? :)
[22:28:37] <micges> SWPadnos: /home/michu/EMC2/laser/emc/src/emc/motion/motion.c:665: ostrze┼╝enie: passing argument 3 of `hal_pin_float_new, from incompatible pointer type
[22:29:13] <SWPadnos> can you pose the offending line on pastebin (plus a couple around it)?
[22:29:24] <micges> yep
[22:29:37] <tom1> SWPadnos: a scuba diver's air supply is controlled by m$ and he gets a blue screen of death
[22:29:40] <SWPadnos> uh - post
[22:29:43] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:29:52] <SWPadnos> the blue gurgle of death
[22:30:25] <SWPadnos> ok - all is not well in mouse land
[22:30:41] <SWPadnos> it's kind of funny - it sort of drifts slowly sometimes
[22:30:50] <SWPadnos> and other times it doesn't track
[22:31:05] <SWPadnos> which is weird, for an optical camera-type mouse
[22:31:54] <tom1> on a sheet of glass? put it on an opaque piece of newsprint (no reflect, no refract)
[22:32:21] <micges> SWPadnos: http://www.pastebin.ca/1036281
[22:32:45] <SWPadnos> not on glass, on the same desk (or piece of paper) it's been on for the last few years
[22:33:11] <tom1> never mind :)
[22:39:46] <SWPadnos> oh duh. pins take pointers to pointers to data, not just pointers to data
[22:40:21] <SWPadnos> so anything you want to be a pin needs to be changed in the struct/whatever like hal_float_t *joint_vel_cmd
[22:40:27] <jmkasunich> yep
[22:40:34] <jmkasunich> and wherever you access it you need a *
[22:40:47] <SWPadnos> yep
[22:41:15] <micges> oh..
[22:47:21] <BigJohnT> DIY shaper
[22:47:29] <BigJohnT> http://members.aol.com/lughaid/Shaper.htm
[22:48:23] <dmess> thx for the link
[22:53:44] <micges> SWPadnos, jmkasunich: done
[22:56:11] <anonimasu> night
[22:56:25] <micges> callback function for little uses pins/params: how it can be implemented ?
[22:56:31] <micges> any thoughts ?
[22:58:04] <micges> problem that with large HAL configuration and modules cause PC to slow down is visible to me from emc 2.2.0
[23:00:25] <micges> as I can see only speedup is to lower less important data flow and check for repetable data flow code
[23:00:31] <micges> It is hard
[23:01:42] <BigJohnT> night all
[23:01:48] <jepler> night BigJohnT
[23:01:51] <jepler> too slow
[23:04:19] <jepler> micges: if performance of something specific decreased from emc 2.1 to emc 2.2, it may be a bug -- in general the performance of HAL should be the same in both. Do you have a specific instance where this slow down is easy to measure?
[23:06:00] <jepler> (unless you mean the message "unexpected realtime delay on task #" which is a condition that 2.2 detects and which 2.1 did not, even if the condition existed)
[23:06:48] <micges> no its no this message
[23:08:19] <micges> I don't know is it hal or other but: when I move my modifications from 2.1 to 2.2 I must add about 20 s.poll() commands in axis to operate correctly
[23:08:46] <micges> It's one of symptoms
[23:09:39] <jepler> perhaps you should file this as a bug report with whatever information you have about it.
[23:09:40] <micges> another is that I must had rearrange adding functions to threads to get correct data flow
[23:09:44] <jepler> this isn't ringing any bells for me
[23:10:29] <micges> maybe 2.1 was chaos and 2.2 correct it up :)
[23:11:05] <micges> 2.1 -> 2.2 was HUGE change
[23:13:12] <micges> one thing Im sure is:
[23:13:41] <micges> we change from stepper controlling machines to velocity control
[23:13:46] <micges> PID and so
[23:14:22] <micges> and we get feed-back position from encoder to AXIS
[23:14:50] <dmess> paradigm shift...
[23:15:19] <micges> and there are 1..5 sec delays with preview in AXIS
[23:15:36] <jepler> which emc2 version are you currently using?
[23:15:44] <micges> 2.2.5
[23:16:22] <gezr> well, that was exciting, had to play monkey and climb up and cut the top out of tree that snapped from the wind
[23:16:46] <gezr> so im sorry if I missed anything
[23:17:37] <micges> net x-pos-cmd axis.0.motor-pos-cmd => pid.0.command
[23:17:39] <micges> net x-pos-fb dio.servo.0.pos => axis.0.motor-pos-fb pid.0.feedback velctrl.axis.0.pos
[23:17:54] <micges> dio - its transport mudule
[23:17:58] <micges> module*
[23:19:15] <jepler> micges: I would be interesting in knowing if this change improves the backplot for you: http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi-files/sandbox/kill-redraw-optimization.patch
[23:20:44] <micges> it is from trunk ?
[23:20:48] <jepler> micges: there is one part of axis which is concerned with not redrawing the preview/backplot area if it "is not changed"; I tweaked it in 2.2.5 but maybe it's not fixed. this change should completely disable that part -- maybe it'll make a difference in your case.
[23:21:23] <jepler> micges: I believe the code is essentially the same in 2.2 as in TRUNK. I made the diff I showed above on a CVS checkout of v2_2_branch.
[23:22:02] <jepler> micges: the negative consequence of the change in that patch is to make the CPU usage of axis higher all the time
[23:22:45] <tom1> bbl
[23:23:48] <micges> jepler: oh I get it
[23:24:31] <micges> once I make simmilar modification and usage was from 10% CPU to 60% CPU while idle
[23:25:29] <jepler> yes that is entirely possible
[23:28:12] <jepler> bbl
[23:28:12] <micges> ok I see that Xorg change from 25% to 50%
[23:28:16] <micges> CPU
[23:30:54] <micges> jepler: I'll check it tommorow
[23:30:58] <micges> thanks
[23:35:48] <tom1> a cvs build is a lot more 'quiet' now. Just simple msgs like "Compiling hal/classicladder/drawing_sequential.c"
[23:40:06] <micges> cvs.linuxcnc.org not accesible
[23:44:32] <micges> inet in Poland sucks
[23:44:38] <micges> work now
[23:51:28] <tom1> wow, when did we get line highlighting? (click on gcode, see path section hilite) thx!