#emc | Logs for 2008-05-25

[00:00:20] <SkullWorks_PGAB> the cams have great onboard mics - its just they will pick up everything in the room.
[00:02:07] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I guess if there was time I could hack the hardware and wire in a jack to bypass the integrated mics.
[00:02:27] <SWPadnos> hmm. yeah true
[00:02:50] <SWPadnos> and I bet there isn't a local "public access" cable channel where somebody could borrow a camera.
[00:03:06] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I used to do it with camera motordrives to allow remote shutter trip/advance.
[00:03:17] <SWPadnos> maybe someone should order one online then return it because - you know - it doesn't do what they want or something
[00:03:30] <SWPadnos> I used to design camera remote controls :)
[00:03:47] <SkullWorks_PGAB> bah - cheap enough to just keep it
[00:04:16] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I had a strange job a few years back
[00:04:28] <SWPadnos> I have a good enough tripod, though it isn't a video style (with the gel head and rear adjustment handles)
[00:04:48] <SWPadnos> it should be able to hold any modern video camera smaller than an XL-1
[00:05:05] <SkullWorks_PGAB> company was making 3D moving maps with GPS coord - accurate to 2meters
[00:05:11] <JymmmEMC> Just send a MBP + bluetooth wireless mic and be done with it =)
[00:05:33] <SWPadnos> ewwwwww
[00:05:42] <JymmmEMC> Hey, it'll work.
[00:06:00] <JymmmEMC> could even add multiple wifi cam's too
[00:06:08] <SkullWorks_PGAB> SWP - even the cheap cams now feature fuzzy logic image stabilization.
[00:06:35] <SWPadnos> oh - well my tripod is good, but it's just not great for video use if you want to pan and tilit a lot
[00:06:45] <SWPadnos> it's a Bogen/Manfrotto 3021
[00:06:58] <SWPadnos> with a 3265 pistol grip ball head
[00:07:50] <JymmmEMC> name dropper =)
[00:07:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:08:09] <SWPadnos> got a good deal too - employee discount :)
[00:08:14] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Lester Bogen won't sell a tripod that won't handle Lester Bogen... ( the old adds from early 80's - with him sitting on a seat mounted on the tripod)
[00:08:19] <SWPadnos> yep
[00:08:39] <SWPadnos> I've sat in some meetings with Susan Bogen, his daughter I think
[00:08:51] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Then you should have a great collection of awesome mic's
[00:09:10] <SWPadnos> I don't think she's running the company any more - I think maybe Manfrotto bought it 5 or so years ago
[00:09:34] <SWPadnos> I could probably call someone and get a video head, but I haven't worked with them in a long time
[00:09:38] <SWPadnos> (so I'd have to pay for it :) )
[00:20:38] <K`zan> What to do, what to do....
[00:21:18] <BigJohnT> If your like me and just got done eating a mess of crawfish you just want to lay around like a fat cat
[00:21:50] <SWPadnos> hmmm. nope. next idea?
[00:21:50] <K`zan> Heh, not sure there are crawfish on this side of the country.
[00:22:10] <BigJohnT> if you have water you should have crawfish
[00:22:16] <K`zan> Have to substitute 10-15/lb shrimp.
[00:22:53] <BigJohnT> have done that size wrapped in bacon and filled with asagio cheeze?
[00:23:15] <K`zan> No, when it comes to shrimp, I'm a purist :-).
[00:23:32] <SWPadnos> aren't they Prawns on that side of the country?
[00:23:46] <BigJohnT> I'm dead in the middle
[00:23:53] <K`zan> The snobs here probably call them that.
[00:24:02] <K`zan> They're shrimp :)
[00:24:08] <SWPadnos> I've had shrimp parmigiana, which was absolutely fantastic
[00:24:34] <SWPadnos> it was 4 jumbo (really jumbo) shrimp, and it was enough to fill me up (which is saying something)
[00:24:41] <K`zan> Yep, but I have been known to eat shrimp until I had to be carried out back when I was on the coast down in GA.
[00:25:02] <K`zan> Yeah, looked at those here the other day $4.99 each...
[00:25:12] <SWPadnos> If you're in Brooklyn, and it still exists, go to "La Giaconda" italian restaurant
[00:25:23] <BigJohnT> shrimp is ok but a hot steaming mess of fresh cooked crawfish is the best
[00:25:42] <K`zan> * K`zan never again goes north of the Mason-Dixon line nor east of the Mississippi river :).
[00:25:49] <SWPadnos> if you'd ever sat across the table from my mother eating such a platter of crawfish, you'd probably change your mind
[00:26:05] <BigJohnT> LOL
[00:26:35] <BigJohnT> we usually stand up while eating and pay attention to the crawfish
[00:26:39] <K`zan> Place in GA had cable spools for tables (BIG) and they would cover them with newspaper and keep dumping pots of shrimp on it (trash can in the hole in the middle) until you begged them to stop...
[00:27:05] <K`zan> And you got out of there for about $12.99 a head less beer and whatever else extra.
[00:27:17] <K`zan> 20 years makes a difference :-(.
[00:27:27] <SWPadnos> heh - it's $129.99 now :)
[00:27:34] <K`zan> Probably on special too.
[00:27:36] <SWPadnos> ^probably
[00:27:38] <SWPadnos> yeah
[00:28:24] <SWPadnos> movie time
[00:28:40] <skunkworks> indiana jones?
[00:28:44] <skunkworks> ;)
[00:29:37] <SkullWorks_PGAB> shrimp / crawfish / prawns = water roaches ( and I didn't need my sister "Dr. Aquatic Biologist" to tell me that.)
[00:44:25] <BigJohnT> don't forget the lobster it is one branch above the roach
[00:47:29] <LawrenceG> nuclear roach
[00:51:00] <jtr> K`zan: been to a place like that (the Crab Shack, where the elite eat in their bare feet) on Tybee Island. Like their low country boil.
[00:53:33] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Lobster = mutant roach, Crabs = inbred mutants
[00:54:28] <LawrenceG> bathed in butter they all taste good!
[00:54:50] <dmess> i went to an all you can eat cra nite last week... ate 5-8 lbs of alaskan crab for 19 bucks
[00:55:32] <BigJohnT> king crab is the best crab
[00:55:58] <BigJohnT> movie time...
[00:56:13] <dmess> i was on Prince edward island a few yrs ago... ate enuf lobster to make me crap GREEN
[00:58:51] <dmess> i went to i fella's hous.. the table was covered with garbage bags and there were vise gripes at each setting..
[00:59:35] <dmess> we ate 40 lobsters that evening... SLOBFEST
[01:00:58] <jtr> gonna try booting to the Hardy live CD - bbl
[01:03:14] <JymmmEMC> dmess: vise grips?!?!? that's kinda tacky dont ya think? Shoulda been channel-locks
[01:07:39] <dmess> too expensive.... but what a 'HO down.... filled like a slob... and fed good beer at the same time
[01:08:28] <dmess> brb
[01:25:48] <dmess> back
[01:54:24] <jmkasunich> toasty!
[01:56:25] <JymmmEMC> Sigh, can't believe this shit... I have two cigar sockets in the dash. One works, the other doesn't. Ok, socket is bad. Go to take apart the dash today, never knew there was a 2nd fuse block in the cab. Look, says see owners manual (argh) and there is a seperate fuse for one of the sockets?! Hit the store $5.50 for a pk of fuses (eeesh) and it works now.
[01:56:43] <jmkasunich> moral of the story: rtfm
[01:57:28] <JymmmEMC> Not even... two sockets right next to each other, one works, the other doesn't?!
[01:57:33] <SWPadnos> yours may not be like this, but some cars that have two sockets have one that's always powered and one that's switched by the key
[01:57:50] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: In this case, both are always on
[01:57:56] <SWPadnos> okie dokie then
[01:58:23] <JymmmEMC> Now, I'm just trying to figure out how to replace the ash tray bulb with an LED.
[01:59:15] <jmkasunich> trying to save power?
[01:59:29] <JymmmEMC> and the ironic thing is, there is no mention of a fuse for the other socket that has been working.
[01:59:39] <SWPadnos> check the manual for the bulb type, then use google to search for that plus the term "LED" :)
[01:59:42] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Nah, 100,000 hours for an LED
[01:59:56] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: good idea
[02:00:01] <SWPadnos> maybe that's why it still works - no fuse :)
[02:00:10] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Gawd, I hope not
[02:00:22] <SWPadnos> get some 2/0 wire and find out
[02:00:41] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I have a .22 you can test it with next time you're here
[02:00:43] <SWPadnos> http://www.ledshoponline.com/automotive_leds.htm
[02:00:46] <SWPadnos> ok, thanks
[02:01:39] <jmkasunich> just remember to point the lead end at your nards
[02:01:54] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Hey, you're the one that said to try using 2/0
[02:02:24] <SWPadnos> yes - low resistance wire, good for seeing if there's a fuse in line :)
[02:02:41] <SWPadnos> I think 2/0 would just about fill a cigarette lighter hole
[02:02:46] <SWPadnos> maybe you need 4/0 though
[02:02:52] <jmkasunich> 500MCM!
[02:03:39] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: You seen the price of copper?! Fuck you... I'll try rebar instead!
[02:03:52] <SWPadnos> use aluminum, it'll melt faster :)
[02:04:39] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: again, you seen the price on that too?!
[02:04:54] <SWPadnos> ok, use a few quarters then. sheesh
[02:05:09] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: STOP SPENDING MY MONAEY!!!
[02:05:12] <JymmmEMC> ;)
[02:05:16] <SWPadnos> it's only quarters!
[02:05:25] <SWPadnos> you'd use those at an arcade
[02:05:34] <SWPadnos> (if there were any arcades any more)
[02:05:47] <JymmmEMC> no those take $5 bills now - ya old fart!
[02:06:01] <SWPadnos> oh. I guess I'll keep playing WOlf:ET then
[02:06:14] <JymmmEMC> at least it aint PONG
[02:06:35] <SWPadnos> blip .... bloop ...... blip ....... bloop
[02:06:45] <JymmmEMC> can't actually find the bulb by it's PN
[02:06:47] <SWPadnos> bluuuuuuuurp
[02:07:18] <SWPadnos> if you can get at it, you should be able to pull it out and check the base type
[02:07:27] <SWPadnos> that's usually stamped in the metal base
[02:07:32] <JymmmEMC> NHO73E (might be a zero too)
[02:07:44] <JymmmEMC> no metal base, push in
[02:08:11] <SWPadnos> hmm
[02:09:28] <JymmmEMC> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gelighting.com%2Fna%2Fbusiness_lighting%2Feducation_resources%2Fliterature_library%2Fcatalogs%2Fdownloads%2Fauto_12_other_interior_exterior.pdf&ei=Hco4SLa8J4nysAPE9uHEDQ&usg=AFQjCNHSZA7wUBA2Y1PmYxmKAAJ8BTsMYA&sig2=rgW8iUCSUUs9Ll_6NbH0KA
[02:09:36] <JymmmEMC> pg2, 1st one
[02:09:37] <SWPadnos> cheeee-rist
[02:11:48] <SWPadnos> that type is called a wedge base
[02:11:58] <SWPadnos> #74 wedge LED may turn up something
[02:13:02] <SWPadnos> http://www.ledlight.com/detail.aspx?ID=225
[02:13:21] <JymmmEMC> PN is NH0 73E, I'm assuming that's #73
[02:13:33] <JymmmEMC> http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/915wb61w.htm
[02:13:41] <SWPadnos> ok, so that wasn't the exact one, just a lot like it?
[02:13:55] <SkullWorks_PGAB> shipping goin to cost you...
[02:14:01] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: just an example to show no metals base
[02:14:14] <SWPadnos> ok
[02:14:34] <JymmmEMC> I have wht led's here
[02:18:10] <JymmmEMC> SkullWorks_PGAB: If the cost of the fuses is any indication of the cost of the stock bulb, I'll pay the shipping gladly.
[02:18:33] <toastydeath> jmkasunich:
[02:18:34] <toastydeath> !
[02:27:04] <JymmmEMC> http://www.superbrightleds.com/mini-wedge.html
[02:27:28] <JymmmEMC> They even have a rechargable LEd flahslight that fits in the cigar socket
[02:29:19] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: do you still work for an air bearing company?
[02:53:31] <JymmmEMC> toastydeath: ...and get an employee discount
[02:54:36] <SWPadnos> nah. if $17500 is OK for harmonic drives, a few expensive air bearings are OK too
[02:56:03] <JymmmEMC> and SWPadnos cc# is.... 4283 4525 1023 2283, Exp 06/2010, CVS2 917
[02:56:32] <JymmmEMC> oh yeah, forgot the zip... 84950
[02:56:38] <JymmmEMC> ^billing
[02:57:11] <SWPadnos> no no, you're supposed to give out the mileage card number. I want some almost free flights!
[02:57:18] <JymmmEMC> Figuring out how to spell his name correctly in an exercise left for the reader.
[02:57:27] <JymmmEMC> s/in/is/
[02:57:28] <SWPadnos> muahahahahaha
[02:58:57] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: That's the only one I have, you'll have to talk to TechShop about any others you may have.
[03:00:23] <SWPadnos> ok, thanks for the tip
[03:11:34] <tom1> the ISABEL PLAZA project would allow videoconferencing for the Fest , but what kind of bandwidth would be needed to allow live video & sound, maybe some interaction ( at least chat ) ?
[03:11:52] <SWPadnos> waaay more than we will have
[03:12:05] <SWPadnos> it's an ADSL line that's shared by everyone in both buildings
[03:12:07] <tom1> i like simple answers :)
[03:12:17] <SWPadnos> so probably 256 or maybe 512kbits upstream
[03:12:37] <tom1> yeah, this was developed for a university lan
[03:12:55] <SWPadnos> similar, about 30 years ago ;)
[03:13:09] <SWPadnos> in the days of CSLIP and PLIP
[03:13:40] <tom1> was that 30 yrs ago? it was so not nice that seems like it was more recent
[03:13:49] <SWPadnos> maybe only 20-25
[03:14:03] <SWPadnos> but we certainly had ethernet when I was in college in the late '80s
[03:14:27] <skunkworks> 10base2?
[03:14:35] <tom1> yeh, i did plip on linux. yeh ethernet coaxial with bnc drops
[03:14:39] <cradek> I can now report that paste wax works less well than WD40 for preventing rust under a vise
[03:14:46] <SWPadnos> bummer
[03:15:02] <SWPadnos> I wonder how well "nothing" has worked for me :(
[03:15:10] <cradek> not very well I bet
[03:15:23] <SWPadnos> I'm sure. I just hope I can still lift it off
[03:15:29] <SWPadnos> (hard enough when there's no rust)
[03:15:59] <cradek> jeez how long's it been on?
[03:16:07] <SWPadnos> um - a longtime
[03:16:11] <tom1> ah, thats handy. I got an edm hole driller here in a tupper ware bin, the metal plates sandwiching it to the real table are getting brown.. off to get some hard car wax, thx
[03:16:48] <tom1> wait paste wax is less good than wd40, then i stick with the heavy bearing grease
[03:17:13] <cradek> I hear good things about paste wax, but it didn't work so well for me (first try)
[03:17:19] <SWPadnos> WD == "Water Displacement". I guess they're right
[03:17:53] <tom1> ah, wd40 left me spots, heavy bearing grease is ok ( the DI water attacks any ferrous )
[03:17:54] <skunkworks> sillicone? ;) (might not have to bolt the vice down..)
[03:18:24] <cradek> I should rig up some sort of keying setup so I can take it off and then just drop it back on the table
[03:19:38] <tom1> grind the rear face of the rear tslot, use dowel pins against that edge (y nest postion and alignment )
[03:19:52] <tom1> teh x position is some hard stop
[03:20:10] <cradek> I don't really care about X, just the alignment
[03:21:07] <cradek> I was thinking cut a key that fits tight in the T slot, flip the vise upside-down and clamp it on the key. mill a slot the width of the key in the bottom of the vise. attach key.
[03:22:00] <tom1> make sure tslot is in line with X travel and is a straight line, then the key is cool
[03:22:02] <cradek> if it doesn't work out, try again on the other T slot :-)
[03:22:45] <cradek> tom1: I think it doesn't matter if it's in line!
[03:22:47] <SWPadnos> drill into the table at two (or three) points, and put pins in the bottom of the vise
[03:22:58] <cradek> tom1: that's the beauty of it
[03:23:17] <tom1> more useful is a real reference surface
[03:23:25] <cradek> SWPadnos: nooooooo!
[03:23:28] <SWPadnos> you may have a rotational error there (double even)
[03:24:18] <cradek> no I'm pretty sure it cancels
[03:24:27] <cradek> imagine the Tslot at 45 degrees
[03:24:39] <SWPadnos> if the T-slot isn't aligned with the motion, then you'll be clampingthe vise off kilter, then when you flip it, it either cancels or doubles :)
[03:24:58] <cradek> yes now the interesting part is figuring which it is
[03:25:06] <SWPadnos> well, try it and tell us :)
[03:25:15] <cradek> I tried it in my brain and it canceled
[03:25:29] <Jessica601> hey all. I just bought 5 huge old superior electric steppers. I cant find specs for them on the web, but I know they are unipolar. any tips of where to find more info?
[03:25:30] <cradek> I have magic meat in my head that can perform experiments with 80% accuracy
[03:25:43] <tom1> no dont screw up your machine, it looked nice
[03:26:07] <cradek> tom1: I won't drill the table. it hasn't been messed up yet and I hope to not be the first
[03:26:09] <SWPadnos> I think it works if you clamp the vise and flip it in Y, not if you flip it in X
[03:26:21] <tom1> Jessica601: info on drivers? on unipolar steppers? what
[03:26:33] <SWPadnos> so the jaw closer needs to be away from you when you machine the slot
[03:26:45] <SWPadnos> (crank handle - whatever it's called)
[03:26:52] <Jessica601> on old steppers, specifically superior electric
[03:27:05] <tom1> yes, i know them ( some of them )
[03:27:10] <cradek> SWPadnos: I don't see how that matters since rotating the vise 180 degrees cuts the same slot
[03:27:31] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[03:27:39] <tom1> Jessica601: you need voltage current ohms inductance stuff?
[03:27:40] <SWPadnos> so it does :)
[03:27:54] <SWPadnos> hopefully they're not SS1800's
[03:27:58] <SWPadnos> or SS1100s
[03:28:03] <Jessica601> toml, yeah... well, i'm not sure -what- all i need!
[03:28:11] <cradek> Jessica601: nothing on the label?
[03:28:26] <SWPadnos> oh, and define huge :)
[03:28:37] <Jessica601> two of them are labeled 2.5v 5A, and two are 3v 4A
[03:28:45] <cradek> nice
[03:28:57] <Jessica601> about 3.5" in diameter
[03:28:59] <cradek> what other information were you hoping to find?
[03:29:08] <SWPadnos> ok, that's not the same kind of huge :)
[03:29:14] <cradek> those sound good for cnc apps (low voltage, high current)
[03:29:20] <Jessica601> well, what voltage should I overdrive these?
[03:29:32] <SWPadnos> you need to know the inductance to know that
[03:29:54] <Jessica601> I found that my old PC power suplly doen't work with more than one of them at a time! *grins*
[03:30:06] <cradek> Jessica601: whatever you drivers can do (start at 30?)
[03:30:49] <cradek> you have chopper drivers?
[03:31:01] <Jessica601> i have a delagrange 4 axis driver i was gonna use for these cuz its not being used for anything else.
[03:31:30] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817814001
[03:31:35] <Jessica601> this is the drive I have: http://www.dtllc.com/4xcnc10b.html
[03:32:15] <fenn> cradek: thanks for the paste-wax data point
[03:32:17] <Jessica601> chris, i don't think it is a chopper driver
[03:33:06] <cradek> Jessica601: ouch then
[03:33:16] <Jessica601> what kind of power supply should I use with these? what rating?
[03:33:54] <Jessica601> chris, that driver isn't gonna work with these?
[03:34:14] <cradek> to run them with that board (without ballast resistors) you should run them at their rated voltage (2.5 or 3v), but performance will be poor
[03:34:25] <Jessica601> hmmmm
[03:34:38] <Jessica601> what if I drop the resistors in?
[03:34:41] <cradek> how many wires coming out of them?
[03:34:46] <Jessica601> 5 and 6
[03:35:02] <Jessica601> two have 5 and two have 6
[03:35:08] <cradek> resistors will help some but will generate a huge amount of heat
[03:35:23] <SWPadnos> are you absolutely sure that the 5-wire is unipolar rather than one of their "AC/Synchronous" motors?
[03:35:37] <cradek> this is a very poor driver board for high power applications
[03:35:44] <cradek> you really, really need choppers
[03:36:00] <Jessica601> swpadnos: it meters out the same as a unipolar
[03:36:26] <SWPadnos> ok. I don't think I ever checked resistance on the huge ones I had
[03:36:44] <SWPadnos> but if it doesn't say "72RPM" somewhere on the lable, you're probably safe
[03:36:49] <tom1> page 5 of the manual " use higher than motor rated volatge for better performance " plus about 8 equations for specifics
[03:36:53] <Jessica601> in otherwords from common to any of the coil wires i get x value resistance. from any of the two coil wires i get 2x resistance.
[03:36:56] <SWPadnos> s/somewhere/anywhere/
[03:37:22] <SWPadnos> that only helps you old farts with manuals :)
[03:38:25] <tom1> but besides the advice to heat sink the drivers it doesnt tell you the technology ( cant tell if it chops , how much, how to set limits) you best read the manual
[03:39:05] <Jessica601> chris, is there a cheap 4axis chopper driver out there? if not, is there a schematic for one I can build cheap?
[03:39:14] <tom1> the manual is on the page you posted
[03:39:21] <tom1> http://hades.mech.northwestern.edu/wiki/index.php/Unipolar_Stepper_Motor_Driver_Circuit
[03:39:40] <tom1> go huskies!
[03:39:44] <SWPadnos> oh - that manual. I thought you were talking about a motor manual :)
[03:39:52] <tom1> driver board manual
[03:40:13] <SWPadnos> then I rescind my old fart comment
[03:40:14] <Jessica601> btw, these steppers are from a Gerber scientific PCB photoexposure plotter.
[03:40:27] <tom1> you call me an old fart? ;)
[03:40:31] <Jessica601> it's a cool machine.
[03:40:35] <SWPadnos> who, me?
[03:41:00] <skunkworks> Jessica601: this guy on ebay makes small spindles.. cnczoners seem to like him http://cgi.ebay.com/DB-200A-High-Speed-Precision-Spindle-CNC-Routers_W0QQitemZ180238324932QQihZ008QQcategoryZ57028QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[03:41:25] <cradek> skunkworks: I bought one of those to try out
[03:41:33] <skunkworks> really - cool
[03:41:42] <Jessica601> chris, you like it?
[03:41:46] <cradek> I bought the one that is made for side load
[03:41:53] <cradek> Jessica601: don't have it yet, but it has shipped
[03:41:59] <Jessica601> ok
[03:42:15] <dmess> hey i'm the OLD FART
[03:42:16] <skunkworks> I don't think he has any on right now.. But I am sure you could email him with questions.
[03:42:22] <Jessica601> toml, is that drive schematic for a chopper driver?
[03:43:51] <tom1> i'll look
[03:44:19] <tom1> l297 chops
[03:44:46] <tom1> no, schema does show chop....
[03:44:57] <tom1> does not show chop
[03:45:11] <cradek> L297 can chop but I see no current sense
[03:45:13] <SWPadnos> it looks like 8-pin PICs or something
[03:45:21] <SWPadnos> just to convert step-dir to 4-phase
[03:45:38] <cradek> building a chopper drive is nontrivial
[03:45:52] <Jessica601> how much to buy one?
[03:45:56] <SWPadnos> yeah - the 4-axis board looked like a simple PIC-based thing
[03:46:35] <SWPadnos> how common are unipolar choppers?
[03:46:40] <tom1> here pminmo unipolar stepper chopper, bare boards with BOM http://pminmo.com/l297unipolar/l297unipolar.htm
[03:46:51] <tom1> uses l297 the right way
[03:47:15] <cradek> there you go
[03:47:34] <Jessica601> is that 1 axis?
[03:47:47] <cradek> yes
[03:47:51] <Jessica601> ok
[03:48:00] <tom1> now, i AM an old fart and some of pminmo's stuff is surface mount, so look before buying if you cant see fly shirt
[03:48:05] <tom1> ;)
[03:48:08] <cradek> SWPadnos is right that unipolar choppers may be rare
[03:48:16] <cradek> the 6 wire motors you can run bipolar (and you should)
[03:48:19] <cradek> the 5 wire you're kind of stuck
[03:49:04] <Jessica601> these are such big steppers, I kinda want to put them to use.
[03:49:48] <Jessica601> one last question, then I'm off to bed... Chris, do you know Jake von Slatt?
[03:50:14] <cradek> I've heard of him - I think he uses emc.
[03:50:32] <fenn> steampunk guy
[03:50:40] <tom1> he wanted to do emc edm
[03:50:54] <Jessica601> I saw your board linked from his. just curious. I have a load of old analog meters and I thought he might be interested in them.
[03:51:04] <fenn> tom1: ecm not edm
[03:51:10] <tom1> right
[03:51:13] <cradek> ah could be
[03:51:14] <Jessica601> didn't know how to get a hold of him. no email on the page.
[03:51:18] <cradek> old meters are cool
[03:51:24] <tom1> zarkov! tune in Mings Palace!
[03:51:31] <Jessica601> heheh
[03:51:53] <tom1> gnite
[03:52:02] <Jessica601> ok. well, off to bed. I'll write the model number of the steppers and come back tomorrow.
[03:52:05] <Jessica601> cya!
[05:50:32] <SkullWorks_PGAB> nothing prevents rust under a vice except maybe metal primer and epoxy paint.
[06:19:48] <fenn> how bout a sacrificial anode
[06:23:14] <SkullWorks_PGAB> well there are often a wide variety of metal chips present - they don't seem to help. Often the "black" or rust is partly from additives in the oils or cutting fluids.
[06:23:45] <fenn> do you know what the "black" might be chemically?
[06:24:11] <SkullWorks_PGAB> both chlorine and sulfur based additives
[06:24:27] <fenn> ok i thought it might be iron sulfide
[06:25:47] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I bet thats it
[06:28:05] <SkullWorks_PGAB> cause I once read they treated old cannon with a mix of burning sulfur and lard to blacken them and reduce red rust.
[07:49:37] <anonimasu> hm, good cutting fluid prevents rust
[07:50:24] <anonimasu> bbl
[08:04:13] <K`zan_emc> Night all
[08:59:32] <pjm> good morning
[09:10:41] <alex_joni> hello
[10:05:33] <micges> hello
[12:14:37] <BigJohnT_> BigJohnT_ is now known as BigJohnT
[12:23:47] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[13:18:51] <pjm> btw, is there a favorite source of toothed belts / gears suitable for use in hobby CNC projects? I've checked ebay but cant really see what I need
[13:20:59] <fenn> sdp-si.com has whatever you need, for a price
[13:21:30] <fenn> mcmaster.com has some belts, msc has some pulleys
[13:21:43] <fenn> it's really quite annoying actually
[13:25:29] <pjm> ok thanks a lot, i will check that out
[13:25:58] <pjm> i'm looking for some gear / belts that I can use from my Z stepper motor to the lead-screw mainly as a torque multiplier
[13:55:11] <JymmmEMC> http://pcwin.com/Multimedia___Design/MITCalc___Timing_Belts_Calculation/index.htm
[14:19:41] <BigJohnT> pjm: I used mcmaster carr for belts and pulleys
[14:20:02] <BigJohnT> XL and L belts
[14:24:23] <fenn> Phreedom: mostly in the evenings (pacific time i guess)
[14:24:31] <pjm> BigJohnT, ok thanks i will check them out
[14:24:37] <fenn> oh wait, delaware. maybe e's just a night owl
[14:24:48] <Phreedom> :)
[14:25:06] <Phreedom> fenn: anyhow it's too early to make so much fuss about my projects
[14:25:19] <fenn> hah
[14:25:20] <BigJohnT> pjm this is a closeup of one setup I used http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Plasma%20Cutter/Plasma003.jpg
[14:25:25] <fenn> fake it til you make it, baby :)
[14:25:29] <Phreedom> lol
[14:25:34] <Phreedom> fenn: don't have time :P
[14:26:08] <pjm> BigJohnT, ah yes excellent that is just what I could use here to drive my Z axis lead screw
[14:26:49] <BigJohnT> the 72 tooth sprocket is solid when you get it I machined out the spokes to lighten it up
[14:27:35] <pjm> ok weight wont be too much of a problem here for that
[14:27:59] <pjm> btw for power supplies for stepper motors, is there any preference between linear suppliers and switched mode?
[14:28:03] <BigJohnT> cool, you can't see well from that pic but I just slotted the holes for the stepper to tension the belt
[14:28:07] <Roguish> looking for timing belt calcs? go to www.brecoflex.com they have a really good belt sizing and layout program.
[14:28:29] <JymmmEMC> Roguish: No, he's looking for belts and gears
[14:28:45] <Roguish> mixing belts and gears?
[14:28:57] <fenn> belts and pulleys, not gears
[14:29:15] <JymmmEMC> what fenn said
[14:29:31] <fenn> it's probably a britishism
[14:29:32] <BigJohnT> pjm I used Antec power suppy is comes with a regulated 12v and 5v as well as the voltage of your choice to run the stepper driver
[14:29:46] <Roguish> yeah, timing belts and pulleys. with teeth.
[14:29:51] <fenn> (timing pulleys do have an involute tooth profile after all)
[14:29:55] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: switching PC PS?
[14:31:31] <BigJohnT> JymmmEMC go to the power supply page here http://www.antekinc.com/
[14:31:31] <Roguish> whatever, brecoflex is good quality stuff.
[14:31:59] <BigJohnT> you can get anything from 30v to 105v
[14:32:14] <JymmmEMC> Something I've been pondering for a while... If you were to wire your place for low voltage (12 - 48 VDC), so that you don't have to have so many walworts, how would you setup lil modules to regulate/set the voltage?
[14:33:03] <fenn> JymmmEMC: know what a buck converter is?
[14:33:15] <JymmmEMC> fenn: I've heard the term
[14:33:35] <fenn> anyway, the correct answer is to use as high a voltage as you can get away with
[14:34:13] <JymmmEMC> fenn: the low voltage source would be battery backed
[14:34:20] <fenn> then drop it down/modulate it with switching transformers
[14:34:35] <fenn> sure, but theres no reason you have to use a ridiculously low voltage like 12V
[14:34:56] <fenn> it's just what eco-tards have been doing for so long that nobody realizes it's a bad idea
[14:35:01] <JymmmEMC> No, though I'd like to have 12 (13.8) available as well as 24VDC
[14:35:06] <fenn> sorry to be so blunt
[14:35:12] <JymmmEMC> fenn: np
[14:35:42] <pjm> BigJohnT, ok thanks re the PSU, i have an aztec smpsu but also enough parts to make a high current unregulated PSU which will deliver about 45V at 10A which I'll probably go with
[14:35:55] <JymmmEMC> I could setup the batteries is a series/parallel configuration so I can get 24/12 out of them directly
[14:35:57] <BigJohnT> cool
[14:35:57] <fenn> 24v is a compromise between safety (human skin conductivity) and switch contact oxidation
[14:36:26] <BigJohnT> no wonder those 24 shock collars don't work well on humans
[14:36:31] <BigJohnT> 24 volt
[14:36:44] <JymmmEMC> fenn: Well, the 24V is more for things like laptops that need 16 or 19VDC
[14:36:50] <fenn> BigJohnT: you just gotta get the current density up
[14:37:12] <fenn> use a steel wool collar :P
[14:37:15] <BigJohnT> yep bigger caps and bigger contacts
[14:37:34] <BigJohnT> ahh now that will work
[14:37:44] <pjm> also i have a question on Z axis in general, when its stopped do folks here use stuff like electromagnetic brakes to lock the spindle so u can change tool, or is there another method?
[14:37:49] <fenn> JymmmEMC: why do laptops need 19v anyway?
[14:38:00] <fenn> what a weird number
[14:38:19] <fenn> it must be a power supply manufacturer conspiracy
[14:38:28] <BigJohnT> pjm the stepper when powered up will hold it in place or try to to the limits of it's holding torque
[14:38:33] <JymmmEMC> fenn: Hell if I know, but I've looked at many of them and that's what it is. I suspect it;s as many cells that they can cram into the batteries.
[14:38:58] <Phreedom> JymmmEMC, fenn: not at all. usually battery is 11-14v
[14:39:29] <Phreedom> maybe downconverting is easier
[14:39:31] <pjm> BigJohnT, but for the Z axis spindle motor, here is a DC motor which of course wont lock when there is no supply volts, so i'm wondering if i need to bother to add some sort of brake that can be electrically controlled.
[14:39:54] <BigJohnT> ok, I didn't understand the question
[14:40:10] <BigJohnT> on my mill the spindle has a mechanical brake
[14:40:23] <pjm> most of the bridgeport interacts and haas's have some sort of break on the spindle that is also turned on during estop and i want to reproduce this on my cnc project
[14:41:09] <BigJohnT> what is a bridgeport interacts?
[14:42:17] <pjm> its an old CNC milling m/c
[14:42:44] <BigJohnT> hmm, my CNC bridgeport only has a mechanical brake
[14:42:51] <pjm> http://www.kressmfg.com/CNC_mill.jpg
[14:42:55] <pjm> for example
[14:43:34] <fenn> yeah but dont you get splinters when taking a shower?
[14:43:59] <BigJohnT> but you get clean fenn
[14:44:22] <BigJohnT> pjm mine is a series one conversion ...
[14:44:34] <pjm> ahh ok got u
[14:44:50] <fenn> pjm: you could use a pulley/weight system to provide counterbalance
[14:45:15] <fenn> or air cylinder/reg if you have too much money
[14:45:19] <pjm> fenn, yeah i'm thinking abotu that also, either that or one of them gas-springs
[14:45:29] <pjm> for the Z head weight
[14:45:31] <JymmmEMC> lol too much money.
[14:45:35] <fenn> it's true
[14:45:36] <pjm> hehh no such thing!!
[14:45:41] <JymmmEMC> fenn++
[14:45:43] <BigJohnT> ok, the captian just called all the black gang topside to work on the deck
[14:45:50] <fenn> spend that money on endmills or something, yeesh
[14:45:55] <BigJohnT> talk to you guys later
[14:46:00] <pjm> cul
[14:46:01] <JymmmEMC> hasta john
[14:46:28] <pjm> also can i just ask this again , "perhaps some one could give me a quick pointer re the coordinates system in EMC. Say for example I've homed the table and my XY0 is in the bottom left corner, but I put a lump of metal in the vice and wobble it to get the centre, how can I then tell EMC where the new centre is?"
[14:46:28] <fenn> the only reason to use a pneumatic cylinder to balance is if you need accel > 1G
[14:47:14] <SWPadnos> pjm: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?CoordinateSystems
[14:47:40] <fenn> g10 l2 p1 x#<your x> y#<your y>
[14:47:41] <SWPadnos> there's also a file called something like "coordinates.ngc" in the sample G-code directory
[14:47:51] <rayh> pjm the answer depends upon which gui you are using?
[14:48:07] <fenn> oh, and mini has some 'teach' buttons
[14:48:22] <rayh> So does tkemc's tool interface
[14:49:01] <rayh> But if you wobble it and write the numbers down, you can use fenn's G10 approach
[14:49:09] <cradek> in axis you just poke "touch off"
[14:49:20] <pjm> ok thanks i'll read up on that
[14:49:54] <rayh> I've put fixture locators on several mills and then use the g10 command at the start of a program. Works really well for repeatability.
[14:50:27] <rayh> cradek, does that touch off allow for the radius of the wobbler?
[14:51:33] <rayh> Or do the two wobbles and move to the zero location and press it.
[14:51:41] <cradek> rayh: yes you'd enter the radius instead of accepting the default which is 0
[14:51:56] <rayh> Ah okay.
[14:52:21] <cradek> bbl
[14:55:41] <rayh> Did we answer enough of your question pjm?
[14:56:04] <pjm> yeah i think that is perfect, thanks alot!
[14:56:11] <rayh> You bet.
[14:56:30] <pjm> its a piece of cake on my manual mill, i just need to transition into the CNC mind set
[14:57:01] <rayh> Takes a bit to figure out the "shortcuts."
[14:58:00] <pjm> well yeah this is it... anyway hopefully it will only take me another week or two to completly build my Z axis then I'll be ready to cut some metal
[14:58:47] <pjm> i'm just building the psu/controller stuff up at the moment in a hopefully swarf tight enclosure
[15:02:54] <JymmmEMC> pjm: allowing fresh air I hope =)
[15:03:16] <JymmmEMC> pjm: jmkasunich used a car air filter on his.
[15:03:16] <pjm> ah yes i have some nice filtered fan covers for just that purpose
[15:03:23] <pjm> yeah thats a good idea
[15:03:54] <JymmmEMC> I guess you could use HVAC filters too, if you set it up tightly enough
[15:04:11] <JymmmEMC> cheap enough at $2-$7 each at any hw store
[15:08:52] <rayh> "hopefully swarf tight enclosure" I've seen chips get into fancy locked enclosures with gaskets at every opening.
[15:09:17] <rayh> Using shop air to clean the cuttings makes it worse.
[15:11:07] <SWPadnos> I was going to ask if "swarf tight enclosure" was kind of like "cat proof container"
[15:14:26] <fenn> the cat fits just fine in his bottle - hasn't broken yet
[15:17:58] <rayh> Morning DanielFalck
[15:18:08] <DanielFalck> hi rayh
[15:18:16] <DanielFalck> I slept in this morning
[15:18:39] <DanielFalck> I got a message from Patrice last night
[15:18:45] <rayh> I was trying to remember if you started using emc before JonE or after.
[15:18:46] <DanielFalck> I'll give him a call today
[15:18:55] <DanielFalck> after
[15:19:05] <rayh> Did you. He's got his machine working and learning how to program it.
[15:19:20] <DanielFalck> I saw a post on alt.machines.cnc that he had written about emc
[15:19:31] <rayh> You were ahead of me by a bit though.
[15:20:05] <SWPadnos> so it was MattS, JonE, then you two? :)
[15:20:12] <DanielFalck> I remember asking Fred to get the stepper motor driver going and he thought about it and then just did it. I was amazed.
[15:20:18] <DanielFalck> yes
[15:20:22] <rayh> Something like that.
[15:21:47] <DanielFalck> Fred is a great guy
[15:21:48] <rayh> Steppermod and the bit bucket!
[15:24:51] <rayh> I can't believe how naive I was walking into his office the first time with a bunch of schematics and operator panel drawings.
[15:24:51] <rayh> And how patient he was with me as he described the NIST way.
[15:26:00] <fenn> re: emc history, i added a link to the bottom of http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/6/5/lang,en/
[15:27:00] <fenn> they seem quite pleased about the whole deal
[15:29:16] <DanielFalck> thanks fenn
[15:36:40] <JymmmEMC> rayh: What do you mean "WAS" ? ;)
[15:37:50] <rayh> hehehe
[15:38:01] <DanielFalck> hi JymmmEMC. Did you get your portable CNC router table launcher sorted out ?
[15:38:03] <rayh> Walked into that one.
[15:38:39] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: Launcher... as in catapult (sp)?
[15:38:51] <DanielFalck> yes : )
[15:39:43] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: Well..... We were able to complete SWPadnos lecture if that's what you mean. But, the catapult aspect isn't far from the truth at this point.
[15:40:22] <DanielFalck> don't ever forget to close the tailgate on that one
[15:41:22] <JymmmEMC> There is some mechanical aspect that, well just cna't figure the fuck out. I can get Y axis to do around 160 IPM no problem. X axis I can barely get the SOB to do 50 IPM without stalling.
[15:42:01] <rayh> Have you swapped motors between the two?
[15:42:47] <JymmmEMC> I took the ballscrew to Thomson factory and they looked it over and even reloadded the balls for me, said it was fine. Placed it and the whole machine on a granite table too. all's good there too.
[15:43:08] <rayh> Servo or stepper?
[15:43:17] <JymmmEMC> rayh: Not yet, but you can HEAR the difference between X and Y even at low speeds.
[15:43:41] <JymmmEMC> sounds like x balls are being chewed up
[15:43:58] <DanielFalck> alignment then?
[15:43:59] <alex_joni> how does the motor with no screw sound?
[15:44:08] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: fine
[15:44:12] <rayh> Your ear is a good test instrument.
[15:44:17] <alex_joni> both are the same?
[15:44:28] <JymmmEMC> It's not electrical issue.
[15:44:54] <rayh> What kind of motors are these?
[15:44:59] <JymmmEMC> steppers
[15:45:15] <rayh> Were they new when you got 'em?
[15:45:39] <JymmmEMC> Really guys, it aint an electrical issue, it's a mechanical one, so lets not go there too much please (touchy subject)
[15:46:07] <DanielFalck> JymmmEMC: are you in Santa Rosa?
[15:46:16] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: San Jose, CA
[15:46:20] <rayh> The reason I was asking is that I've seen used motors on sale that had been taken apart. That kills them.
[15:46:30] <JymmmEMC> rayh: Nah, brand new
[15:46:41] <rayh> Good.
[15:47:04] <JymmmEMC> http://www.xylotex.com/StepperMotor.htm
[15:47:14] <rayh> Ah okay.
[15:48:00] <JymmmEMC> Y is completely smooth sounding. X sounds like the balls are being ground up.
[15:49:35] <rayh> In the early days of xylotex they had some issues with noise immunity. That's been fixed though.
[15:50:10] <JymmmEMC> When I feel less disgusted about the whole thing, I might take the whole machine to Thomson and have them listen to it.
[15:51:17] <DanielFalck> sounds like a good plan
[15:51:38] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: Unless they tell me it'll cost $1800 to fix.
[15:51:48] <JymmmEMC> a few hundred I'm okey with.
[15:52:22] <DanielFalck> I'm betting you just have an alignment issue between the bearing mounting points and the ballnut- just a guess
[15:53:08] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: I'm suspecting it's the ballnut mounting block specifically. Which then I'll pretty much be fscked.
[15:54:35] <rayh> JymmmEMC, Have you got pics of some of this?
[15:54:45] <JymmmEMC> hang on
[15:54:56] <DanielFalck> as in the mounting block was made out of square?
[15:55:29] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: far worse than that... SWPadnos already machined a new one
[15:57:08] <JymmmEMC> ballnut and ballnut mounting block http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1079/980998834_9f44b57eb3_b.jpg
[15:58:24] <JymmmEMC> Parrot Demolition Inc. http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1105/980074887_01d726bfb6.jpg
[15:58:49] <rayh> Oh. Same screw and nut I used on the Grizz.
[15:58:55] <JymmmEMC> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1320/863197044_65626c20ec_b.jpg
[15:59:32] <JymmmEMC> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1213/863197056_71deace0d0_b.jpg
[15:59:35] <rayh> And that Roland used on a few hundred projects.
[16:00:04] <DanielFalck> I bet the parrot can help you with the machine
[16:00:17] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: I bet she could =)
[16:01:02] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: I removed all the electronics from the kybd before giving it to her. she just rips those keys off like it's nothing.
[16:01:18] <DanielFalck> are the original makers of the frame being no help at all?
[16:01:57] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: too many years have past and I had nfc at the time. It's been one hell of a learning exp the last few years.
[16:02:06] <rayh> is the sound pretty much the same near the ends of travel as in the middle?
[16:02:09] <BigJohnT> JymmmEMC I just stepped in what is the problem with the ballscrew
[16:03:18] <JymmmEMC> rayh: No. check this though.... If I jog from R2L no problem. If I jog from L2R and get past the 50% point, it'll stall every few inches.
[16:03:44] <JymmmEMC> guarnteed.
[16:04:08] <BigJohnT> the biggest problem I see is being made from 80/20 you have a rigid connection to your ball screw. That stuff is not real consistant
[16:04:19] <cradek> "sounds terrible" seems like such a telling symptom
[16:04:48] <BigJohnT> I'd have some kind of flexible connection to the carriage via some thin flat strips of metal to allow the misalignment some place to go
[16:06:12] <DanielFalck> like maybe even just tighten one of the cap screws holding the mount to the table and leave the other loose just to check it
[16:06:22] <BigJohnT> JymmmEMC loosen the two screws that bolt the ball nut adapter to the carriage and try it
[16:06:36] <rayh> That description does help.
[16:08:40] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: When SWPadnos was here, we changed the design of the ballscrew end mounts. One end (closest to pulley) is fixed. The other end is floating, which now allows the ballscrew itself not to bind for any thermal expansion, etc.
[16:08:55] <DanielFalck> that's good
[16:09:15] <BigJohnT> that's good as Daniel typed faster than a speeding bullet
[16:09:50] <BigJohnT> without the motor attached does it move freely when you spin the shaft by hand from one end to the other
[16:09:56] <JymmmEMC> We could use axial bearings, but didn't have any at the time.
[16:10:20] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: the grinding sound still happens.
[16:10:42] <JymmmEMC> sorry angular contact bearings I mena.
[16:11:06] <JymmmEMC> but those are iccing on the cake.
[16:11:09] <BigJohnT> if you disconnect the ball screw from the carriage and move it from end to end by hand is it free and smooth
[16:11:20] <BigJohnT> it=carriage
[16:11:34] <SkullWorks_PGAB> How about mounting that ball nut on stripper bolts - so it can float in 2 axis perpendicular to the thrust forces.
[16:12:24] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: for the most part. I honestly believe what is happening is that the ballnut mount (under static load) is pushing on the ballnut like this --> / / so is binding up the balls from moving smoothly.
[16:12:45] <JymmmEMC> There IS wear on only one end inside the ballnut itself.
[16:13:01] <BigJohnT> do you think it is bending the bottom rail on the carriage or bending the bolts?
[16:13:05] <JymmmEMC> and the problem is that this ballnut is no longer available from Thomson.
[16:13:49] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: I think the ballnut mount isn't storng/secure enough and is flexing/bowing when bulling the load.
[16:13:52] <rayh> What did they do different to the current nut?
[16:14:21] <JymmmEMC> rayh: nfc. I didn't ask as he was being very nice with all the other question I was having.
[16:14:45] <JymmmEMC> I just didn't want to push my luck =)
[16:15:42] <JymmmEMC> He even gave me a set of balls that are .0003" smaller so I can preload the nut more if needed.
[16:15:46] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT studies picture some more
[16:15:50] <rayh> I've got two of the same model as your's right here.
[16:17:08] <BigJohnT> JymmmEMC did you check that the mounting bolts are perfectly aligned at both extreems of travel? Is there any chance that the ball screw is not parallel to the rails?
[16:17:35] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: We checked that, and tossed the whole machien on a granite table. all is good.
[16:18:47] <BigJohnT> have you tried running it back and forth with the screws loose?
[16:18:52] <rayh> JymmmEMC, When you say RL and LR does that match up with the image we see?
[16:19:02] <JymmmEMC> rayh: Yes.
[16:20:01] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: No. I'm kinda chicken to for a fear it'll cause more damage.
[16:20:17] <BigJohnT> try it by hand...
[16:21:31] <jmkasunich> pjm_: you were looking for a supplier for timing belts and pulleys earlier - try http://www.econobelt.com/
[16:21:46] <pjm_> jmkasunich, ok cheers i'll check that out as well
[16:21:58] <jmkasunich> I haven't purchased from them (yet), but they seem to have a much wider selection than mcmaster, and slightly lower prices
[16:22:36] <BigJohnT> JymmmEMC is your thrust bearings shot on one side? ie. giving you more resistance when you go right than left?
[16:24:52] <BigJohnT> thanks for the link jmkasunich
[16:25:22] <JymmmEMC> Ok, I loosened the bolts that attach the ballnut mounting block to (what we call) the underside gantry plate - the balls sound smooth, tighten them up and the grinding sound is back. This is only turning the screw maybe two full turns.
[16:25:47] <rayh> That is a good clue.
[16:26:23] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: Resistance is pretty much consistant turning the the leadscrew either direction.
[16:26:38] <BigJohnT> ok, then either the threads on the end of the ball nut are not parallel to the shaft or the adapeter is not or....
[16:26:40] <rayh> L2R is the problem direction.
[16:26:55] <JymmmEMC> rayh: R2l
[16:27:39] <JymmmEMC> I can make the SOB stall either direction, just predominant in R2L at 50% point.
[16:27:44] <BigJohnT> JymmmEMC can you see any daylight between the ball screw adapter block and the underside gantry plate in the front or back
[16:27:53] <rayh> I thought you said, L2R and get past the 50% point
[16:27:58] <BigJohnT> with the screws loose
[16:28:11] <JymmmEMC> rayh: I typoed, sue me =)
[16:28:40] <rayh> NP
[16:28:46] <rayh> Life is like that.
[16:29:08] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: See, there's the problem, I couldn't tell you if there was due to the way the machien is setup I cna't see or even measure thos things.
[16:29:16] <rayh> Don't worry about testing. I'll donate these two ballnuts if you need.
[16:29:45] <BigJohnT> JymmmEMC this is a high tech solution and I use all the time. Take a piece of paper and put it between the block and the bar then tighten up the bolts. Better good, worse move paper to other side
[16:29:55] <BigJohnT> and try again
[16:30:08] <JymmmEMC> rayh: Thanks, I appreciate it, but I don't think that's the issue right now (unless I've caused more wear within the ballnut), I really think it's this fucking ballnut mount causing all the problems.
[16:31:39] <rayh> Right. And there can be flex and rotation of that underside gantry plate.
[16:31:42] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: I have brass shim stock right now lowering the ganty plate. I think I'll need to add more then try it again. but no time today to try that out.
[16:32:21] <JymmmEMC> rayh: BINGO, that's what I'm thinkin is that mount is too damn small and not enough surface area from keeping it parallel
[16:32:21] <BigJohnT> you also need to find out if the ball nut block is square to the gantry plate by trial an error
[16:32:41] <rayh> I can easily understand your frustration with this, JymmmEMC
[16:32:49] <rayh> Been there several times.
[16:32:51] <JymmmEMC> rayh: It's only been 3 years
[16:33:08] <JymmmEMC> Wait, I'll tell you EXACTLY how long it's been....
[16:33:12] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Jym - any chance the ball nut mounting threads are not square to the screw? - it would tind to bind everywhere - but maybe not enough to be noticed until the effect was compounded by another alignment issue.
[16:33:44] <DanielFalck> JymmmEMC: use a wire tie to connect it to the table : )
[16:33:45] <SkullWorks_PGAB> as in bad nut
[16:33:54] <JymmmEMC> Since May 23, 2005.... I keep the box top with the shipping date on the wall to remind me when this hell started.
[16:34:09] <DanielFalck> which company?
[16:34:16] <JymmmEMC> K2CNC.com
[16:34:42] <JymmmEMC> DanielFalck: fuck it, at this point duct tape might actually work.
[16:35:14] <BigJohnT> JymmmEMC give the paper shim a try after you relax a bit
[16:35:14] <JymmmEMC> Note: I *did* say this was a touchy subject for me =)
[16:35:31] <DanielFalck> JymmmEMC: tell us how you really feel : )
[16:35:31] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: In about 3 to 8 years =)
[16:35:51] <BigJohnT> :)
[16:36:15] <JymmmEMC> I had just completely walked away from this thing due to the frustration.... It's only because SWPadnos asked had I picked it up again.
[16:36:47] <JymmmEMC> Whne the show was over I stopped agian till DanielFalck inquired =)
[16:37:57] <rayh> 50 IPM is 250 rpm so a bit of whipping on both sides of the ballnut might make the mis-alignment worse.
[16:37:57] <JymmmEMC> See, Thomson has a nice mounting block, sort like a flange nut with lots of surface area to keppp the nut parallel, the problem is that there is no room on the machine for it.
[16:38:02] <DanielFalck> I was just interested in the cnc launcher concept. Now I know why you wanted one.
[16:38:18] <DanielFalck> Drive up to k2cnc headquarters.....
[16:38:30] <rayh> I couldn't use those flanges on my project either.
[16:38:38] <rayh> They do look really nice.
[16:38:44] <JymmmEMC> rayh: Maybe, but I can get 180IPM on Y no problem at all. Can't even get 50IPM on X without stalling.
[16:39:01] <rayh> I had to get a tap for that hole.
[16:39:19] <JymmmEMC> rayh: I was thinking about that too.
[16:40:19] <rayh> I did mill the connector face and drill and tap at the same time.
[16:40:29] <JymmmEMC> I just dont have a mill available unless I goto techShop and pay for the time on their which are used and abused and they supply HF tooling which looks like a dead rotting corpse.
[16:41:08] <rayh> Whoa. I'm sure that one of us could do better than that.
[16:41:13] <JymmmEMC> When SWPadnosand I were there, I had to goto HF to buy a set of drillbits becasue HF ones were far better than anything they had on hand.
[16:41:16] <jmkasunich> you want a properly threaded mounting block, put it on the lathe faceplate and single point it
[16:41:23] <jmkasunich> then you know it is perpendicular
[16:41:35] <JymmmEMC> Dont got a lathe either.
[16:42:12] <jmkasunich> maybe techshop's lathe is better than their mill? and lathe tooling is cheaper
[16:42:20] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich curses plumbing
[16:42:21] <JymmmEMC> That's originally why I bought this thing in the first place, I don't have access to mill/lathe to make my own.
[16:43:31] <rayh> How much travel do you have in X"
[16:43:54] <JymmmEMC> rayh: Yeah, We've learned to buy and bring your own tooling to TechShop. It kinda sucks that it closes at midnight. just when you need that extra 45 minutes to finish up, sorta kinda.
[16:43:59] <JymmmEMC> rayh: 24.5"
[16:44:09] <JymmmEMC> as well as in Y
[16:44:33] <JymmmEMC> 5.5 or 6.5" in Z, but Z is acme, nut ballscrew
[16:44:42] <rayh> Okay.
[16:44:45] <JymmmEMC> s/nut/nut/
[16:44:58] <JymmmEMC> and... it works good too
[16:46:26] <rayh> Do the ballnut flanges screw tight to the connector flange?
[16:46:43] <JymmmEMC> I have some 2" x .75" al bar stock here too. The remains of when SWPadnos remade the end mounts.
[16:46:55] <JymmmEMC> rayh: what flanges?
[16:47:33] <JymmmEMC> the ballnut mount screws on to the ballnut, then two 10/32 screw connect it to the gantry plate.
[16:47:39] <rayh> The body of the nut is square but there is a round surface on the end of the nut.
[16:48:02] <JymmmEMC> rayh: the end of the ballnut is threaded
[16:48:33] <JymmmEMC> but I think you knew that.
[16:48:48] <rayh> Does that surface screw tight to the face of the mounting
[16:49:45] <JymmmEMC> rayh: Nut exactly, no. If I turn it so it's solid againest the face of the ballnut, It won't be aligned with the gantry plate
[16:49:54] <JymmmEMC> s/Nut/Not/
[16:50:06] <JymmmEMC> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1040/863196994_17db5696e6_b.jpg
[16:51:00] <jmkasunich> wait, you are saying its not screwed all the way into that aluminum block?
[16:52:17] <jmkasunich> that can't be good
[16:52:29] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: I can't. If I try to screw the mount so it's 100% flush againest the ballnut, I cna't put the two bolts in that mount to the gantry plate.
[16:52:48] <jmkasunich> why not? the bolt holes hit the ballnut threads?
[16:52:59] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: There is no clearance to.
[16:53:12] <jmkasunich> not understanding you
[16:53:38] <jmkasunich> I can see a problem with the nut being at an angle, but I don't see how it affects the mount-to-plate screws
[16:53:59] <JymmmEMC> I have to keep the ballnut at 90 deg angles. If I make them flush, the ballnut will be at a 45 deg angle and will hit the C channel.
[16:54:20] <jmkasunich> ok, thats what I thought, but when you started talking about the plate-to-mount screws you threw me off
[16:54:39] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: can't you put appropriate spacers?
[16:54:46] <alex_joni> washers or such?
[16:54:47] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Where?
[16:54:56] <jmkasunich> having the nut loose can't be good - I'd try measuring the gap, then find a washer or make one from shim stock
[16:55:04] <alex_joni> what jmkasunich said
[16:55:07] <JymmmEMC> ah
[16:55:08] <jmkasunich> between the mount and the nut
[16:55:37] <alex_joni> on some precision spacing I had to do work, there were several .1mm washers
[16:55:41] <jmkasunich> another thought just crossed my mind - I was reading somewhere (not sure where) that when possible its best to have the ball return tube on top of the nut
[16:55:46] <JymmmEMC> any suggestion at storng but flat material to try?
[16:55:49] <jmkasunich> that way the balls flow naturally back into the nut
[16:56:04] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: I cna try that
[16:56:29] <JymmmEMC> are SS fender washers usually flat?
[16:56:31] <jmkasunich> with the tube on the bottom the balls have to be pushed up into the nut
[16:56:35] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: what's your ID/OD ?
[16:56:46] <alex_joni> between the nut and mount
[16:57:05] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: what measuring tools do you have? feeler gages?
[16:57:11] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: ID is 3/4" (iirc), OD is like 1 to 1-.125"
[16:57:13] <alex_joni> I was thinking something like these: http://www.rpmechatronics.co.uk/shop/index.php?cPath=25_76
[16:57:29] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: I have some brass shimstock here
[16:58:14] <alex_joni> http://www.rinomechanical.com/Charts/Bearing-Spacers.htm
[16:59:58] <BigJohnT> McMaster Carr 3088A124 0.001" thick shim washers can get them up to 0.134" thick...
[17:00:58] <BigJohnT> I use this kind of stuff all the time to get perfect alignment on thread mated parts when needed
[17:01:08] <jmkasunich> McMaster also has 90805A184, 3/4" ID, 1-1/8" OD, 0.062 thick, made out of laminated 0.002" thick layers
[17:01:15] <jmkasunich> peel off the layers you don't need
[17:01:27] <jmkasunich> $8.84
[17:01:43] <BigJohnT> the peel and fit is handy
[17:02:39] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: does the .002 include the adhesive?
[17:02:52] <jmkasunich> it must, there are 31 layers in the 0.062 thick washer
[17:03:42] <alex_joni> OT: this looks like a very good material on couplings: http://www.rinomechanical.com/pdf/Tech-Notes/Designers%20Guide%20US.pdf
[17:03:45] <jmkasunich> I notice that the thickness spec is +0.006 / 00.002, so maybe there is 0.0001 of adhesive x 31 layers = 0.0031
[17:04:08] <jmkasunich> oops, that was supposed to be +0.006/-0.002
[17:04:13] <JymmmEMC> =)
[17:05:26] <JymmmEMC> Well, I enough frustration for today, time to see my shrink. That would be my 9mm and around 300 rounds of ammo =)
[17:05:36] <jmkasunich> have fun
[17:05:56] <JymmmEMC> always do, and stress level always drops by 90% too =)
[17:06:01] <BigJohnT> gun control means use two hands to aim
[17:06:18] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: exactly.
[17:06:34] <jmkasunich> wonder if the range is gonna be open tomorrow....
[17:06:38] <BigJohnT> going to do some shooting myself if it don't rain this afternoon
[17:07:04] <BigJohnT> when you live in the woods you live on the shooting range
[17:07:12] <jmkasunich> lucky
[17:07:16] <JymmmEMC> Well, I'm gonna shoot one way or another today... be it gun or camera, something is guarnteed to get shot!
[17:07:23] <BigJohnT> we got ticks too
[17:07:35] <JymmmEMC> ew
[17:07:35] <jmkasunich> when you live in the burbs, you have a moderate drive to an indoor range, and a long drive to an outdoor one
[17:08:13] <BigJohnT> hearing gun shots is normal everyday around here
[17:08:38] <jmkasunich> if I was in a closer-to-the-center burb, it might be everyday here too
[17:08:39] <JymmmEMC> If you hear shots around here.... DUCK!
[17:08:49] <BigJohnT> LOL
[17:08:50] <jmkasunich> fortunately that hasn't spread this far yet
[17:09:11] <JymmmEMC> oh hell, that reminds me I need to get some more hollow points.
[17:09:22] <BigJohnT> you don't reload?
[17:09:51] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: I never considered reloading 9mm
[17:09:59] <JymmmEMC> shotgun is easy enough.
[17:10:28] <BigJohnT> we do 44 mag and 45 acp and 357 pistol reloading as well as all the rifles
[17:10:32] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: I buy 1000 rnd reloads, but they aren't hollow points.
[17:11:10] <jmkasunich> I shoot 45 acp and 22lr - about 10x more of the latter, so it isn't worth being set up to load the former
[17:11:20] <BigJohnT> I get wolf for my 223's
[17:11:44] <BigJohnT> we have two dillon one pull on bullet presses one for 44mag and one for 45acp
[17:12:00] <BigJohnT> s/on/one
[17:12:20] <JymmmEMC> A long time ago a friends Dad had a 22 rifle that broke down to a 22 pistol. (backpack gun where everything fit in the stock). I'd LOVE to find one like that today.
[17:12:43] <BigJohnT> that would be cool
[17:13:10] <BigJohnT> you see JymmmEMC we start talking about guns and you feel much better now...
[17:13:20] <JymmmEMC> BigJohnT: I always do =)
[17:14:07] <rayh> Oh look. There's a chipmunk sticking his head up over that log!
[17:14:11] <jmkasunich> unfortunately I have to go back to plumbing
[17:14:34] <jmkasunich> chippie is safe with me - I just shoot paper
[17:14:38] <rayh> And Maxine doesn't like em eating her flower bulbs.
[17:14:39] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: when sweating copper, don't put you hand in the flow of molten solder.
[17:14:44] <JymmmEMC> =)
[17:14:47] <jmkasunich> thanks, I'll remember that
[17:15:02] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: guarnteed you'll never forget after the first time =)
[17:15:12] <jmkasunich> I'm hoping to avoid sweating - it is a very awkward spot
[17:15:28] <jmkasunich> I hope I can repair rather than replace the valve
[17:15:55] <jmkasunich> this started with a dripping faucet in the bathroom
[17:15:55] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: That's what happened here... eventually said screw it and bought the $30 brass compression fitting
[17:16:16] <jmkasunich> turn off the shutoff valve in the basement to work on it, and water drips out around its handle
[17:16:31] <jmkasunich> I figure packing is bad, but it will stop when I release the pressure upstairs
[17:16:33] <rayh> Got a call from Roland. The cnc-workshop is coming together.
[17:16:42] <jmkasunich> open the fauced upstairs, and water still flows
[17:16:44] <rayh> He made some changes to the web.
[17:16:49] <jmkasunich> the shut-off valve doesn't
[17:16:52] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Got air compressor?
[17:17:11] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: got upstream shutoff valve ;-)
[17:17:19] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: ah =)
[17:17:35] <jmkasunich> rayh: thats good to hear
[17:17:46] <jmkasunich> I still haven't registered, mostly because the site was so broken
[17:18:02] <JymmmEMC> it's surprising on how fast the remaining water in a copper pipe cools off so fast that you cna't sweat the fitting on fast enough.
[17:18:41] <JymmmEMC> even used MAAP gas too
[17:40:59] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT hears a nap calling
[18:26:47] <Jessica797> cradek: you around? I've got the info on those steppers I told you about last night. All four are Superior Electric Slo-Syn Unipolar Steppers at 1.8 degree steps. two of the four are 225 oz/inch, 2.5v, 5A, model ss250-200 / bm101010. The other two are 200 oz/inch, 3v, 4A, model m092-fd-322 / bm101025
[18:27:39] <Jessica797> I'm curious about what voltage I should drive these at and if you have a suggestion for a power supply that would handle four of these puppies.
[18:28:53] <alex_joni> usually 20-30 times the nominal voltage
[18:29:06] <alex_joni> there's an excellent paper on steppers found at geckodrives.com
[18:29:27] <alex_joni> http://www.geckodrive.com/photos/Step_motor_basics.pdf
[18:29:41] <Jessica797> thx alex, I think I've seen it. Now, do I -understand- it??? hehehe
[18:29:58] <alex_joni> well.. reading it a couple times sure helps :)
[18:30:04] <alex_joni> what drivers do you plan to use?
[18:30:42] <Jessica797> well, I have an unused delagrange driver I'd like to use, but the guys in here suggest I get a chopper.
[18:31:05] <Jessica797> I kinda hate to spend more money since I already have a 4 axis board sitting around
[18:31:31] <Jessica797> i have a delegrange 4xcnc10a board
[18:31:59] <rayh> How much voltage does that drive allow?
[18:32:59] <Jessica797> dunno. it is rated at 10A though
[18:33:15] <Jessica797> they have a pdf on it. I'll get the link
[18:33:29] <alex_joni> do you have unipolar motors?
[18:33:38] <Jessica797> yes
[18:33:41] <alex_joni> err.. you said that already.. sorry
[18:33:44] <Jessica797> all four of them are unipolar
[18:34:00] <Jessica797> http://www.dtllc.com/4xcnc10b.html
[18:34:14] <Jessica797> here is the page on the driver. there is a pdf there as well
[18:35:34] <alex_joni> max 45VDC
[18:35:44] <alex_joni> so you probably want 35-40V
[18:36:04] <Jessica797> what would a good power supply for these be?
[18:37:36] <alex_joni> transforme + rectifier bridge + big cap
[18:37:51] <rayh> I'd probably build my own linear supply using a 24 volt AC transformer
[18:37:56] <Jessica797> the cap is a filter?
[18:38:03] <rayh> That would give about 33 volts.
[18:38:59] <Jessica797> alex: does the cap serve as a filter?
[18:39:15] <alex_joni> yeah
[18:40:50] <Jessica797> ok, so would anyone mind sketching me a quick schematic for that PS? I could build it from a schematic, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to come up with the values myself. (yet, that is...)
[18:41:47] <Jessica797> Also, even though the two are slightly different from the other two, are they close enough I could use the same PS?
[18:42:31] <rayh> http://sound.westhost.com/power-supplies.htm
[18:42:44] <rayh> Down in the page a ways is a pretty good drawing.
[18:43:18] <Jessica797> Fig 1?
[18:45:04] <rayh> yep
[18:45:46] <rayh> The four diodes are often combined in a single bridge rectifier.
[18:46:11] <Jessica797> that comes out to 32V @ 1.6A. Don't I need more current with these steppers?
[18:46:12] <rayh> but could be separate devices as well.
[18:46:35] <rayh> Yes you will need more amps than that description shows.
[18:46:48] <rayh> I'd plan it for about 10 amps max
[18:46:57] <rayh> phone bbiab
[18:47:09] <Jessica797> err... how would I mod the circuit to deliver the increased current?
[18:48:25] <fenn> add more magic smoke
[18:48:34] <Jessica797> heheh
[18:48:51] <pjm_> Jessica797, find a transformer with higher rated output current
[18:50:59] <Jessica797> thx, pjm. Sorry to be dense, but this 'lectronics stuff is new to me. What value would I look for compared to the value given in ray's schematic?
[18:52:03] <Jessica797> err... actually, rays schematic is written for 240vac.
[18:52:49] <Jessica797> so, I just need to find a transformer rated at 120vac input, 33v output @ 10A or more?
[18:53:16] <Jessica797> then drop that thru a bridge to switch it to DC, and a cap to filter it?
[18:53:49] <pjm_> yep thats about it
[18:54:01] <pjm_> most transformers have 2 X 110 windings on the primary side tho
[18:54:03] <alex_joni> Jessica797: and carefull around the caps when they are loaded
[18:54:06] <anonimasu> did you read anything or know anything about electrical safety?
[18:54:14] <gefink> Jessica797: then you get 46 V DC
[18:54:33] <pjm_> so u can either series up the primary windings or make sure they are in phase and parallel them
[18:54:34] <alex_joni> 33V AC is too much
[18:54:37] <Jessica797> anon, safety? Don't touch the shiny parts?
[18:54:56] <alex_joni> as gefink said, you get roughly 1.5x the AC voltage
[18:54:59] <anonimasu> and keep one hand in your back pocket.. :p
[18:55:01] <pjm_> oh and put a 1K 10W resistor across the cap to discharge it on power down
[18:55:53] <anonimasu> Jessica797: That's good :)
[18:56:00] <Jessica797> so a 24V @ 10A transformer? If I drive all four steppers, will 10A be enuf?
[18:56:21] <alex_joni> well.. you won't be able to carry one that does 20A
[18:56:37] <Jessica797> you sayin I'm weak???
[18:56:39] <alex_joni> hmm.. wait.. 20A x 24V ~= 480 VA
[18:56:40] <Jessica797> heheh
[18:56:46] <alex_joni> sure you can carry that
[18:56:52] <alex_joni> just get a toroid
[18:57:04] <Jessica797> is that like a hernia?
[18:57:08] <Jessica797> *grins*
[18:57:14] <alex_joni> I meant the transformer
[18:57:26] <Jessica797> I know
[18:58:02] <alex_joni> * alex_joni feels relief
[18:58:09] <anonimasu> lol
[18:58:16] <Jessica797> Could someone please take a look at the driver I have and tell me if the 10A is per stepper, or total?
[18:58:20] <Jessica797> http://www.dtllc.com/4xcnc10b.html
[18:58:45] <anonimasu> 10 amps per phase per motor
[18:59:16] <alex_joni> " It is built to handle up to 10 amps per phase per motor."
[18:59:58] <Jessica797> ok, so will a 24v 20A PS work, or will it fry the board?
[19:00:08] <alex_joni> it won't fry the board
[19:00:08] <Jessica797> (sorry to be so dense)
[19:00:26] <Jessica797> (I'm an IT person. Just getting into this stuff as a hobby)
[19:00:29] <alex_joni> what happens if the 20A is too little, the voltage will sag when all motors are running at the same time
[19:00:30] <anonimasu> dont worry about it we've seen alot worse :)
[19:00:46] <alex_joni> Jessica797: if it's too much, nothing happens
[19:00:59] <Jessica797> would the magic smoke leak out?
[19:01:04] <alex_joni> the transformer doesn't always output 20A.. that's max rating
[19:01:21] <fenn> transformers are much more forgiving than most electronics
[19:01:21] <Jessica797> it outputs what the motor draws?
[19:01:28] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:01:32] <alex_joni> it outputs as much as the consumer is requesting.. (putting it in layperson terms)
[19:01:41] <anonimasu> well delivers is a better term
[19:01:50] <Jessica797> ok
[19:01:54] <fenn> V=IZ more orl less
[19:02:23] <Jessica797> now everything is as clear as mud. Would radidio smack sell this kinda transformer?
[19:02:46] <fenn> if I goes high enough that the core is saturated, V drops to compensate until everything balances
[19:02:59] <jtr> That board isn't a chopper, is it? One page shows how to hook it up as an L/R ddriver.
[19:03:06] <Jessica797> would I be better off buying an off the shelf ps?
[19:03:14] <fenn> no
[19:03:19] <Jessica797> jtr, i don't think it is a chopper
[19:03:32] <alex_joni> switched PS's aren't good for this type of work
[19:03:32] <Jessica797> why no, fenn?
[19:03:33] <fenn> there are some simple rules of thumb for sizing transformer and capacitors
[19:03:46] <fenn> bought'n capacitors will probably be the wrong thing anyway
[19:03:53] <fenn> er. boughtn psu's
[19:04:12] <Jessica797> ( I can see it now... I'm gonna lose my thumb to a freak transformer accident)
[19:04:27] <fenn> you dont want linear filtering, switching psu, zero crossing, etc
[19:05:09] <Jessica797> so, fenn, the simple circuit that ray found would work fine if I just bump the transformer?
[19:05:47] <fenn> yep
[19:06:02] <fenn> and proportionally more capacitance
[19:06:27] <fenn> not too much though or you'll overwork the transformer
[19:06:31] <Jessica797> do you know if radio shack will have the transformer, or will i need to get it on the net?
[19:06:42] <fenn> radioshack won't have anything, forget you ever heard of them
[19:07:09] <fenn> if you must buy locally, find an industrial or commercial electrical supplier
[19:07:38] <fenn> but really the best bet is those antek toroid's on ebay
[19:07:42] <Jessica797> it's just that everyone is closed until tuesday.
[19:08:10] <Jessica797> personally, i hate radio shack myself.
[19:09:23] <Jessica797> i've a couple of dead printers. I wonder if I can scrounge parts from one of those?
[19:09:34] <K`zan> Rat shack, the best floor sweepings you can buy at 3X retail...
[19:09:47] <Jessica797> *grins*
[19:10:17] <Jessica797> ok. well, I'll see what I can find. I'll prolly be back in a bit w/ more questions.
[19:10:22] <K`zan> Now you get to order everything and pay shipping AND still pay 3x what you can get it from other mail order sources...
[19:10:44] <Jessica797> thx guys. You all are very helpful
[19:10:52] <K`zan> But if they have it and you need it...
[19:10:53] <jtr> Before you go...
[19:10:57] <Jessica797> yes?
[19:11:44] <jtr> what size resistors is she gonna need to set up the L/R drive? Since it's not a chopper, what else will limit the current?
[19:12:28] <jtr> I can't answer the question - just wanted fenn and alex to consider it.
[19:12:42] <Jessica797> ok
[19:12:48] <jtr> I have no experience with steppers.
[19:13:06] <Jessica797> jtr, you use servos?
[19:14:05] <jtr> I don't have a machine yet, but I have dealte with them for camera pan and tilt units. Small, fast, low power. 15 volt, less than an amp.
[19:14:12] <fenn> dunno what L/R is supposed to mean.. but if there's no chopper the resistance is the only thing limiting current
[19:14:15] <fenn> V=IR
[19:15:10] <Jessica797> ok, i recognize ohms law, but i haven't a clue how to apply it here...
[19:15:46] <jtr> at speed, the L limits the current; at rest, it's all the motor winding resistance and an additional series resistor.
[19:15:50] <fenn> measure the stepper coil resistance, add to your ballast resistor value
[19:15:57] <fenn> voltage = 36V or whatever
[19:16:19] <fenn> honestly you should just get a real chopper drive
[19:16:29] <Jessica797> $$$$
[19:16:33] <Jessica797> I'm poor!
[19:16:42] <fenn> otherwise you'll be dropping half the power across the ballast resistor
[19:16:49] <K`zan> HCNC is pretty affordable - me too poor for the good stuff...
[19:16:49] <fenn> and the other half in the stepper
[19:17:08] <Jessica797> the coil is about 5ohm from common to the other side of the coil.
[19:17:10] <fenn> see why i hate stepper motors?
[19:17:21] <Jessica797> HCNC?
[19:17:29] <fenn> and to top it all off, they're noisy and lose steps right when it matters most
[19:17:41] <fenn> hobbycnc
[19:18:05] <fenn> its a l297/l298 board i think.. makes a slight hissing noise
[19:18:06] <K`zan> 4 axis for the less than the price of one axis of Geckos
[19:18:12] <K`zan> Yes
[19:18:13] <gefink> Jessica797: what is the maximum currnt for this winding
[19:18:20] <Jessica797> fenn, I got these big honkin steppers that could drive a car for free... It sure beats not having any.
[19:18:35] <K`zan> It does have a 0.5A minimum draw requirement for the steppers.
[19:18:48] <Jessica797> gefink, the motor says 5A on two of them and 4A on the other two
[19:18:54] <K`zan> 3.5A max IIRC, might want to check
[19:19:19] <K`zan> # 3.0 Amps Maximum per Phase, 500ma (.5A) minimum. Each axis adjustable throughout this range.
[19:19:29] <K`zan> :-(
[19:19:33] <Jessica797> ok
[19:19:41] <Jessica797> so HCNC is a no go
[19:19:43] <K`zan> Real steppers require real drives, I guess.
[19:19:53] <gefink> Jessica797: then your motor will smoke if you apply more then 20 Volt
[19:20:26] <Jessica797> gefink, i thought you could over-volt them by 30 x?
[19:21:12] <gefink> Jessica797: only in choppermode so that the current stays unde maximum
[19:21:35] <jtr> resistors: (36volt - 5volt) / 5amp - a little more than 6 ohms. for wattage I^2 x R so each resistor will dissipate about 150 watts.
[19:22:28] <fenn> you dont have to drive steppers at their maximum rated current..
[19:22:44] <fenn> just set hobbycnc to 3A
[19:23:21] <Jessica797> isn't that like wasting a lot of the available torque of these steppers?
[19:23:52] <fenn> they are only 4-5A right?
[19:23:58] <Jessica797> yes
[19:24:02] <fenn> so no, not really
[19:24:21] <fenn> you lose 25-40%
[19:24:32] <gefink> Jessica797: you lost torque, but using no jopper wastes verry verry much speed
[19:24:34] <fenn> but as a bonus the steppers dont catch on fire
[19:24:45] <Jessica797> what do most PC power supplies put out?
[19:24:50] <gefink> and power os torque*speed
[19:25:02] <Jessica797> no fire??? where's the excitement in that?
[19:25:59] <K`zan> :-)
[19:26:02] <gefink> Jessica797: think about L297/ L298 or an integrated monolithic Toshiba ControllerIC.
[19:26:24] <Jessica797> these are drivers?
[19:26:28] <Jessica797> Chopper drivers?
[19:27:08] <gefink> yes, cheap, open bords are aviable
[19:27:09] <fenn> btw re: the steppers catching on fire; if you run them at rated current they will get really hot (enough to burn you if you touch them)
[19:27:16] <gefink> up to 4 Amp
[19:27:33] <gefink> up to 40V the L298
[19:27:44] <Jessica797> they have fans mounted on the side of them.
[19:27:56] <fenn> ah must be quite big then :)
[19:28:08] <Jessica797> *smiles*
[19:28:26] <gefink> The toshiba makes microsteps for soft run
[19:28:41] <jtr> FWIW, you may get better performance with a chopper drive at reduced current than with an L/R drive at full current. Of course, if you already have the drive...
[19:28:59] <Jessica797> hey, I have an old PS from some kind of audio board. it is rated at 12v/2A or 24V/1A. You all think that would work?
[19:29:09] <gefink> jtr: thats right
[19:32:19] <jtr> gotta run -
[19:32:53] <gefink> Jessica797: the 12v/2A could reach to power 1 coil over a Transistor. but smoke if you power all 2 coils
[19:33:45] <Jessica797> so, it would work if i full step, but smoke if i half step?
[19:33:58] <gefink> but chech temperature because its a little bit over limit
[19:34:09] <gefink> yes
[19:35:06] <Jessica797> does the driver I have mux the outputs, so only one stepper is active at any given time? or are they all, always active?
[19:35:29] <gefink> Jessica797: there also a fullstepmode that use 2 coils at a time
[19:35:51] <Jessica797> oh, yeah...
[19:36:05] <Jessica797> does the driver I have mux the outputs, so only one stepper is active at any given time? or are they all, always active?
[19:36:08] <gefink> Jessica797: i dont cnow your device
[19:37:23] <Jymmmmmm> I'm on a blackberry, so my typing will be slower than normal.
[19:37:44] <Jessica797> I thought you were psychic
[19:38:32] <Jymmmmmm> I think you cofused psychic with psychotic. =)
[19:39:38] <Jessica797> gefink, why would 12v @ 2A smoke the motors? Can't I just drop a fat resistor in series to dissapate a bit of the power?
[19:40:10] <Jymmmmmm> miswired?
[19:40:13] <gefink> Jessica797: not the motor. The powersuppy smokes
[19:40:46] <Jessica797> Hmmm... I'm really confused now
[19:41:49] <Jessica797> so, why would the steppers smoke the PS?
[19:41:50] <gefink> the coils have 5 Ohm, The supply 12V. thats 2.4 Amps drawn from a 2A supply
[19:42:20] <alex_joni> the 2.4A@12V PS is too small
[19:42:26] <alex_joni> and I bet it
[19:42:33] <alex_joni> and I bet it's a switched supply
[19:42:51] <alex_joni> those usually smoke, they don't act as forgiving as transformer/rectifier based PS's
[19:42:56] <Jessica797> ok... and if I put a resistor in series, that would only make the current issue worse? right?
[19:43:06] <alex_joni> no
[19:43:09] <alex_joni> it'll make it better
[19:43:25] <alex_joni> you still supply 12V on a bigger resistance, which will determine a smaller current
[19:43:49] <Jymmmmmm> current limiting resistor
[19:43:56] <Jessica797> hmmm... i thought I asked about the resistor up above.
[19:44:01] <alex_joni> Jymmmmmm: these are no chopper drivers
[19:44:04] <Jessica797> That would work then?
[19:44:17] <alex_joni> Jessica797: not nicely
[19:44:19] <Jymmmmmm> alex ah ok
[19:44:23] <alex_joni> you'll get crappy performance
[19:44:25] <Jymmmmmm> lol
[19:45:00] <Jessica797> out of what? the PS? the steppers? why?
[19:45:09] <alex_joni> the steppers
[19:45:19] <Jessica797> ?
[19:45:21] <alex_joni> because you'll run them pretty slowly
[19:45:30] <alex_joni> (less current then they are meant to use)
[19:45:35] <Jessica797> ok
[19:45:43] <alex_joni> those are some pretty big motors
[19:46:05] <Jessica797> what does a PC powersupply normally operate at?
[19:46:19] <alex_joni> it outputs loads of voltages
[19:46:27] <alex_joni> +12/-12, +5, +3.3
[19:46:29] <Jessica797> current-wise
[19:46:37] <alex_joni> I think 20-30A @ 5V
[19:46:42] <alex_joni> 10-20A @ 12V
[19:46:44] <alex_joni> etc..
[19:46:49] <Jessica797> hmmm....
[19:46:55] <Jessica797> wouldn't that work for this?
[19:47:04] <alex_joni> the 10A@12V might just work.. but then you don't have much voltage
[19:47:24] <alex_joni> to get _good_ performance out of a stepper you want 10-20 times the rated voltage
[19:47:31] <alex_joni> but that only works with switched stepper drivers
[19:47:38] <alex_joni> so in your case you can try the 12V
[19:48:05] <Jessica797> ok
[19:48:22] <alex_joni> maybe try the 5V first
[19:48:24] <Jymmmmmm> I'm so confused lol
[19:48:32] <alex_joni> Jymmmmmm: why? too small screen?
[19:48:34] <Jymmmmmm> sop
[19:48:44] <Jymmmmmm> pretty much
[19:49:03] <Jymmmmmm> laterts
[19:49:07] <alex_joni> see you
[19:49:59] <alex_joni> * alex_joni leaves for a while too
[19:50:17] <Jessica797> i mentioned this PS from an old audio rack. it's 3"x18"x5", and the transformer is huge inside. It has a big heatsink as well. since the PS is rated at 120vac in, 12vdc @2A out, can I assume that is what the transformer inside of it is rated? If so, can I rob that transformer, get a bridge and make rays circuit?
[19:55:04] <Jessica797> oops! fire run! bbiab
[20:12:04] <maddash> help! my new pci parport isn't working correctly with emc2 2.2.2's HAL. I set the hal_parport cfg line to "0x378 x 0xDFF0 in 0xDF90 in," but some of the pins in parport.{1,2}.-{2 to 11}-in-not are not working properly.
[20:12:35] <maddash> s/working properly/unresponsive to external inputs/
[20:14:30] <maddash> here's the output from dmesg after I load parport_pc: http://pastebin.org/38466
[20:19:04] <rayh> Did you get output from lspci
[20:19:16] <maddash> wait
[20:19:42] <rayh> You may see several locations for that card.
[20:20:10] <maddash> argh
[20:20:38] <maddash> why several locations?
[20:21:20] <rayh> Something to do with the PCI interface
[20:21:29] <maddash> and what does this mean for me? is that why dmesg lists both 0xdff0 and 0xdfe0?
[20:21:40] <rayh> I'd guess so.
[20:22:27] <rayh> You can test each location by starting it alone in a loadrt and see what happens.
[20:22:49] <maddash> but replacing '0xDFF0' with '0xDFE0' in the hal_parport cfg line causes the whole of parport.1.* to be unresponsive
[20:22:50] <rayh> I'd try first as a common parport then when you get them both sorted out try the in only.
[20:23:27] <maddash> brb. maybe lspci could give me the help I need.
[20:41:48] <dmess> rayh.... any idea where to post a 380mb file for all to access?? siemens manuals
[20:48:35] <rayh> Well I don't know.
[20:49:29] <dmess> service stuff and all... i cant access my ftp ...
[20:50:39] <rayh> I don't have that ability here. You might ask SWPadnos and see if he's got a way to get them into linuxcnc.org
[20:50:55] <rayh> Do they have a copyright that permits on-line?
[20:51:06] <jmkasunich> ray read my mind
[20:51:58] <dmess> the are available on the www3 web.... but i lst the link
[20:51:58] <rayh> I know because my Mitts manuals don't permit it.
[20:52:33] <rayh> Ah then it should be okay.
[20:52:38] <dmess> i wouldnt put that past you guys...
[20:53:15] <dmess> ray... we need to chat..
[20:53:56] <dmess> sometime... when its convenient..
[20:56:01] <rayh> Now works.
[20:56:34] <dmess> you see me
[20:56:59] <rayh> yes
[20:57:21] <rayh> I tried a query, are you using a registered nick?
[20:58:52] <dmess> yes... i think...
[21:01:07] <jmkasunich> you guys could always just create your on temporary channel
[21:01:10] <dmess> im commin' in from los angeles... bringin' in a couple a k's.... you know the rest...
[21:01:21] <jmkasunich> /join #rayndmess or whatever
[21:01:24] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:01:41] <rayh> Night alex.
[21:01:43] <jmkasunich> night alex
[21:01:49] <rayh> Good plan jmkasunich
[21:02:57] <rayh> okay /join #emc-rd
[21:35:01] <toastydeath> fff
[21:48:25] <maddash> fuck
[21:48:49] <jmkasunich> no thanks, you're not my type
[21:48:56] <rayh> She's not here right now ;)
[21:49:13] <maddash> after hours of trial and error, I've concluded that cfg="0xDF00 in" won't work, but cfg="0xDF00 x" wiill
[21:49:26] <maddash> ARGH!
[21:50:32] <rayh> Sounds like it has it's mind made up about what it will look like for IO.
[21:50:38] <maddash> ?! how is that possible?
[21:55:11] <maddash> /cries
[21:56:06] <maddash> I spent all my 'girlfriend time' trying to make this stupid card work
[21:56:55] <anonimasu> :/
[21:57:19] <toastydeath> girlfriend time?
[21:59:01] <maddash> time originally allocated for her
[21:59:28] <maddash> netmos ought to be punished
[22:12:29] <Jessica797> rayh: got a few minutes to help me with this power supply?
[22:12:53] <jmkasunich> rayh isn't here at the moment
[22:13:21] <jmkasunich> bout 20 mins ago: rayh has quit ("I'm gone")
[22:13:23] <Jessica797> Duh.... if I could read, I would have seen that... it's only like 10 rows above.
[22:14:09] <maddash> gnite folks
[22:14:19] <maddash> jmkasunich: long time no tab-complete
[22:18:51] <dmess> Mad your fached
[22:52:27] <Jessica797> Ok folks, can anyone help me size a current limiting resistor?
[22:53:17] <Jessica797> I have a 26vdc / 2A PS. My steppers are 2.5V @ 5A with a 5 ohm resistance.
[22:55:49] <BigJohnT> for your drives?
[22:57:12] <Jessica797> yes
[22:58:00] <BigJohnT> is this like for gecko drives?
[22:58:23] <Jessica797> no. I just bought 4 big old superior electric steppers
[22:59:44] <Jessica797> Any idea on the resistors, john?
[23:00:09] <BigJohnT> I'm not sure what you want...
[23:01:24] <Jessica797> i have a 26vdc / 2A power supply. I think I need a current limiting resisor if I'm gonna drive those new steppers, but I'm not sure and I don't know how to calc the value of it if I do need one.
[23:02:31] <BigJohnT> what kind of drives do you have?
[23:03:05] <Jessica797> I bought 4 old superior electric unipolar steppers. they are rated at 2.5v @ 5A
[23:03:19] <BigJohnT> not the motors the drives
[23:03:20] <Jessica797> the driver is a delegrange 10A driver
[23:03:51] <Jessica797> this driver: http://www.dtllc.com/4xcnc10b.html
[23:04:11] <BigJohnT> that might help let me look
[23:04:24] <Jessica797> thx!
[23:05:11] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT hums the final jepordy song while the pdf downloads
[23:13:00] <BigJohnT> I'm guessing your talking about the optional resistors in the manual?
[23:13:42] <Jessica797> yeah.
[23:14:10] <BigJohnT> looks like there is just enough info that if you are an expert you will not have any problem figuring it out...
[23:14:40] <BigJohnT> sorry, but it is just above my level of SWAG
[23:14:55] <Jessica797> the PS is 26vdc @ 2A. The steppers are 2.5V @ 5A. I want to put a current limiting resistor to keep from frying anything, but I don't know how to size it.
[23:14:59] <Jessica797> ok
[23:15:01] <Jessica797> thx
[23:15:40] <BigJohnT> there is some info on the wiki site on steppers have you looked at it?
[23:16:07] <Jessica797> no
[23:16:11] <Jessica797> what is the link?
[23:16:25] <BigJohnT> and for the non-electronic challened Jessica's data sheet is here http://www.dtllc.com/files/4XCNC10Brev1.pdf
[23:16:31] <BigJohnT> one moment
[23:17:14] <BigJohnT> look at the bottom of this page http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TweakingSoftwareStepGeneration
[23:18:23] <Jessica797> ok
[23:19:23] <BigJohnT> well good luck, I'm off for a shower and grill some meat
[23:19:38] <Jessica797> thx!
[23:19:57] <BigJohnT> keep trying you will find the answer
[23:20:04] <Jessica797> *smiles*
[23:56:22] <tomp2> if your hardy upgrade (from stock to emc) looses sound, alex pointed me to install linux-ubuntu-module-hardy-rtai package. worked for me :)