jmkasunich: Are you still here?
(on and off)
jmkasunich: Is now "on"?
I was just looking at your web page...
and was amazed at what you could do with a few operators and owords. Just wanted to tell you what a nice job that fusee code was.
fun with fire, or fun with o-words
thanks for writing o-words
g-code is a real language now
It's great to see them used.
I use them for probably half the programs I write
With all of the potential for hidden bugs.
so far I haven't seen g-code do something I'd consider a bug
You might consider putting that code up on the wiki. On don't think people realize how powerful it is.
On -> I
feel free to post it (or a link to it) on the wiki
I find that Axis is a big help in debugging code.
there are permalinks for each post in my blog, so you can get to that one
I'll do that when I get a chance. Gotta run.
yep - I'd be terrified to use o-words without the preview
I said I've never seen them do something wrong - thats not the same as seeing them do something I didn't expect
but like most programming, they were doing what I told them to do
One of the lisp environments had a feature called DWIM. (do what I mean). That's what it attempted to do.
mayor richard j daley of chicago's most famous quote. "Write what I mean, not what I say."
is the test Hardy Heron EMC using this rt? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime/Hardy
the developers are using it to do scada & pick&place
tom1: no. that is a different realtime system which doesn't seem to be good enough to do step waveform production. here's a blog entry I wrote about it: http://axis.unpy.net/01190912545
thx, this is very interesting, that the servo loop control is ok but the step generation is not.
maybe the faster thread is not ok and the slower thread is ok?
and servo is less demanding than stepper. ( gotta study)
more diesel questions - looks like the output of the turbo goes to a kind of "air radiator" (?) in front of the real radiator. why?
The intake air heats up when it's compressed (and probably picks up some heat just passing through the turbo). Extracting the heat increases the density of the intake air charge.
So you get more from the turbo...
I suspect my turbo might not be working. I will try to put a boost gauge on the output. there is an obvious place to hook it up.
is this the generator engine you were working on?
no it's the bus's main engine
no turbo on the generator
How did the generator turn out? I haven't had the opportunity to work on a diesel.
it runs great
I took apart the injector pump, fixed some obvious problems, and put it back together and reinstalled
sounds simple but it was a lot of finicky work
Are you referring to the tight clearances or picky adjustments?
"intercooler" would the term for that air radiator
jmkasunich: ah I figured that was it (google told me so)
lewin1 is now known as lewing_
lewin1 is now known as lewing_
Not sure that ethernet cable is working out. Just got it in and there seems to a lot of buzzing and not quite made steps... Will look into it more tomorrow.
has anyone looked at http://www.ar-cad.com/products/freecad/linux
it's not cad as much as a kinematics simulator.
tom1: Got gcnccam working well. Have had problems with qcad arcs being off by .0006 and emc don't like that
tom1: I was making some "teardrops" for a small hub and belive it is the qcad trim function that is flubbing the arc start end and centers have any experience with qcad and these type errors ?
Wondering if adding that 6 feet of 24ga cable to the steppers changed something. When I had the steppers connected directly to the HCNC drive I don't remember chattering or them seeming to miss steps. Just rechecked the wiring and it is correct. Strange.
did you check the cable itself?
Just rang it out for continuity.
does the cable get warm when you run the machine?
Wasn't on that long but the steppers get warm (not hot) quickly.
Running flowsnake and then tux and will see what happens.
Nope no heat on the cables, but I got some allignment issues to resolve and the Z-Axis is running backward. Will putz with that tomorrow.
anyone know what the reasoning behind large-machine websites not listing the prices for anything, but asking you to call for a quote?
I can understand it for something like a custom job, where there are so many variable factors, but when you're simply buying a standard machine, like a laser cutter with no options, what's the point?
gfixler: i think there is a couple of factors, maby currency nost machines run on us dollars
and the fact that there is no such thing as s standard machine :)
well, when you're ordering a particular model of laser cutter, it's going to be the same thing anyone gets when they order it
it'll be part #something
my guesses have been that they want to feel you out, and haggle a price, or that they just want to start a conversation with you, so they can talk you into buying from them, instead of having you shop around
there are few people that buy machines at stock prces...
and those are idiots...
hi, I'm trying the rtai_smi.ko fix, but I get an error from insmod "no such device" ??
latency-test shows the delay jumping to 156 ms every now and then...
I need to run now but if anyone has some ideas on why insmod won't install rtai_smi.ko on my system please write here and I will check the logs
gfixler: if the price is not fixed and published, the sellers know they can get more from some people or cut thier price to underbid a competitor.
you must bear this in mind and be ready to fight for a good price.
the trick is to know the basic price which is usually old-boy networking.
just say 'well competitor XYZ is offering theirs for $(bid * 0.75) why is yours so high?'
'cuz it's a better machine!
awallin: you need to have an intel chipset to load the rtai_smi module
awallin: check dmesg, but if it says no such device, then probably you either don't have one, or you have one which isn't recognized by the rtai_smi module (check the source of the module to see a list of things it knows about)
in approx. 1.5 hours I'll begin my HAL modules coding...first time.
Is any additional comments or things I should to know?
alex_joni: yep, dmesg says 'intel chipset not found' so my realtime-delay must be caused by something else...
awallin: lspci -vvv?
what does that do?
now I installed NVIDIA drivers through the envy installer but that seems to have locked up the computer
you don't want the nvidia drivers for a realtime system.
* alex_joni agrees
unfortunately you have to use vesa. even nv seems to cause some problems.
even the open source driver on NVIDIA hardware sometimes causes problems with RT
I like the old matrox cards the best.
intel seems quite fine too
oh. how do I get rid of the installed NVIDIA driver?
especially because they do 3D stuff
yes even integrated i810 seems ok on the few I've tried
awalli1: change /etc/X11/xorg.conf
look for driver, and put vesa there
was there some utility for doing that
alex_joni: it's worse than that, since the nvidia crap replaces the GL libraries
envy was something I found with google, it automates the NVIDIA / ATI driver install
bugger.. I usually apt-get remove --purge *nvidia* stuff
awalli1: can you determine whether it used apt?
I think it might have used apt
then I think you can just remove the apt packages
(but I'm not sure)
could the realtime-delay be related to networking? previosly I had it connected to the network and did not get any warnings. now it's without a net connection and I get the occasional 150-160 ms delay with latency-test
awalli1: doesn't sound very plausible
but if you installed nvidia in the meantime, then it's more likely that's the case
awalli1: USB sticks & such, sometimes also cause RT delays
I installed the nvidia drivers only after the problem appeared. now I reconfigured X and hopefully got away with nvidia, using the nv driver
awalli1: I recall at least one other person reporting that networking caused rela-time delays, but I don't have any idea what nic chipset they were using
jepler: but I think it was the other way around
(when the network was connected, and packages arrived.. maybe unmasked interrupts)
well now that I reconfigured with sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg the machine doesn't freeze anymore but I get an error "GLX extension missing"
so glxgears and AXIS won't start :(
awalli1: you gotta thank NVIDIA for that
they replaced the GL libraries
alex_joni: oh, hm -- I didn't read closely enough
jepler: maybe I misremember.. so anyways awalli1 should try both ways (network connected and disconnected)
awalli1: try reinstalling the original libglu mesa (forgot the name)
has realtime-delay reporting changed between 2.0.x and 2.2.4 ? I didn't get those with the old 2.0.x controlling a stepper machine. This is now 2.2.4 and an m5i20 / servo-machine
yes, quite a bit
2.2.x is much more eager to report realtime errors
in 2.0.x tests were lots more limited
hmh, now with the nv driver I don't have glx but do get th 156 ms delay after looking at latency-test for a while
with the nvidia drivers the whole machine hangs quite a bit but sometime I get glxgears running in fullscreen with much higher update rate and smoother than with nv drivers
rayh fenn that 75% or less is why japan outsells us & mid-europe machine. prepare for the indian machine tool invasion
I saw their $2500 car.
rayh: in person?
nah just a bunch of pics.
awalli1: that is expected
you get crappy 3D performance with the nv driver or with vesa
ok, trying vesa next.
or even the onboard video card
vesa will be crappier
but better RT performance
now with vesa I don't have GLX, so can't run glxgears or AXIS, but I can run latency-test and it again shows the 156 ms delay. it seems to come whenever starting big apps like OpenOffice or similar
is there something similar like glxgears that I could load up the machine with?
SHA1 every file on your machine =)
or SHA256 even
well, it doesn't seem to be related to cpu-load directly. running some filters in GIMP does put the cpu load at 100% for several 10s of seconds, but doesnt affect latency-test
awalli1>: have you /usr/lib/Mesa/demos/gears
gefink: I doubt that works .. if glxgears doesn't
awalli1: try hdparm -t /dev/sda to test ide-interrupts and dma
alex_joni i think it dont use glx
hmm.. I don't have that here..
alex_joni some other "gears" ?
no /usr/lib/Mesa at all
have you x11perf ?
gefink: hdparm -t gives around 72 Mb/s this is a SATA drive
awalli1: affekting latency?
* awalli1 has around 20min on laptop power left...
gefink: no, didn't cause latency to rise
at least not the 156ms delays I see once in a while
the jitter does go up depending on how much I load the cpu but that is normal I guess
aw: you say notebook. goes your harddisk sleeping?
gefink: this irc connection is from the laptop and via 3G phone, the mill and emc2 runs on a desktop pc
Is EMC take part in GSoC this year?
Assargadon: because nobody enrolled emc to GSoC
now I timed the delay between 156ms latency, seems to be around 10min. something in cron that runs every 10min?
have you checked SMI ? Iintels service management interrupt?
ist it a intel CPU?
alex_joni, if I'll make application, is it will be ok?
Assargadon: this years GSoC is long closed for applications
I miss "March" and "May"
Assargadon: there are a couple of things needed for emc to participate in GSoC
including people willing to act as mentors
there are lot of people mentored me :) why not mentor some developer?
so any ideas on the 156ms real-time delay which repeats every 10 minutes?
awallin: intels System management interrupt (SMI) ??
gefink: the rtai_smi.ko module would not load as it didn't recognize an intel chipset
insmod: device not found
awallin: no more ideas
although this is an intel MB with a celeron cpu
What's a decent s/ftp damon ?
awallin: what chipset?
JymmmEMC: I used proftpd in the past
alex_joni: don't know, it says Intel desktop board D102ggc2
awallin: do a lspci -vvv
disable anacron and syslog ?
and you'll know
awallin lspci gives info about host and PCI bridge
I will do a re-install now as the OpenGL went away with the NVIDIA drivers
is the new Ubuntu OK for a 2.4GHz machine or should I stick with 6.06?
is there a simple install-script for Ubuntu 8.04?
you want yo upgrade instead of doing a clean install?
I want to do a clean install, something like http://linuxcnc.org/dapper/emc2-install.sh
or is the liveCD better?
dont know if better, but simplist it seems
you need internet on the box
gefink: yeah, I got everytihng to the lab again so I have a net connection.
awallin: both should have the same outcome
with the difference that the stock hardy CD will have lrm in it, and might install it
(lrm = linux-restricted-modules)
alex_joni: ok, I'm burning a 8.04 cd right now. also checking if the 10min 'ghost' shows up when on a network connection
OT: I am installing the LiveCD to a Netvista. The AGP slot had a filler plug in the slot and a card in the slot doesn't get recognized. Are there some motherboards with AGP slots that where not intended to function?
could be the bios doesn't set it up
The menu has a defalt video setting for "internal" or "PCI". I wonder if a BIOS update could fix it?
I wonder why it had a plug in it.
I was thinking, to keep someone from using it.
99.9999999999% of the time, the entire connector would be missing in that case
your system is the only thing keeping that from being 100%
hm, I only get a "Starting up ..." when booting the 8.04 rtai kernel for the first time??
I looked on Lenovo for a BIOS and the revision history mentions an AGP fix for something. I'll try the update. Wish me luck.
awallin: it hangs there forever?
alex_joni: if forever==1-2 minutes
hmm.. try passing "irqpoll" as a boot param
is this using the livecd or installed?
can I do that via grub?
F6 to change boot params
or edit /boot/grub/menu.lst
f6 doesn't do anything?, e to edit commands before booting?
F6 is for the LiveCD to change.
there are four lines: root, kernle, initrd, quiet
and put irqpoll
would that be 'irqpoll' as a new line, or as the last item on the kernel line?
awallin: I don't know.. just try
I usually do it on the LiveCD, and there everything is on one line
ok, here we go...
OHCI: BIOS handoff failed (BIOS bug?) fffffff
gefink: don't know, but the installer booted fine. this is after installing 8.04 from CD and then running the hardy/emc2-install.sh
so the rtai kernel used with 8.04 is different from the magma one used with 6.06 ?
its an other kernelversion
its a big difference
0000:00:13.0 OHCI: BIOS handoff failed (BIOS bug ?) ffffffff that's the whole error msg and then it just hangs
the -generic kernel seems to boot OK I think
worked the grub-install?
yes, the 8.04 CD installed grub for me
try switching USB legacy support in the BIOS
a USB memory stick does work with the -generic kernel
you cann look for the correct rootdevice while booting
usb has three settings in the BIOS: All, 2.0 and Legacy. They are all enabled. Was your suggestion to only enable Legacy and disable the rest?
leave 2.0 on (not sure what "all" does), and disable legacy
unless you have a USB keyboard only (no PS2 ports)
disable Legacy if you dont have an usb-keybord
ok, now the rtai kernel boots!
what other than glxgears should I be running while latency-test is running?
could the USB Legacy support have been the source of a real-time delay repeating every 10 min ?
there it is again, 155ms of delay!
no idea but SMI
well the rtai_smi.ko won't install at least on 6.06, is there one for this rtai kernel?
but in internet i read SMI duration is ~ 236277 not 155000000
the wiki page on SMI says it's only for dapper
have you 155 ms or 155 usec
i think that cant be SMI
that is a real 0ong time 0.15 sec
is a CD in the drive or have you an internal USB-Cardreader
try disable all USB
there's no cd in the drive. There are two usb ports at the front and more at the back.
no internal cardreader
Now I'm trying the kernel latency test in at realtime-xxx-rta/testsuite/kern/latency/run
but it doesn't produce any output for me?
when I hit CTRL-C I do get some output which is negative or very large
I'll reboot and disable all usb
still no output from the testsuite latency test...
will have to chek if latency-test still shows the delay every 10min
The BIOS update didn't fix my missing AGP. Anyone have ideas on how to procede next?
awallin: the rtai latency test doesn't work for you?
awallin: try to check syslog for the moment the problem happens
(don't do that while emc2 or latency-test is running)
alex_joni: I get some stars and 'type CTRL-C' then it just hangs. When I hit ctrl-C I get a few more lines of output but with negative, zero or very large values
alex_joni: ever seen a 0.15 sec delay?
gefink: yes, even larger
usually from nvidia
gefink: where would I look for syslog?
there is a CPU instruction which is something like a couple million cycles
I know nvidia uses it to clear out CPU caches
in /var/log/messages oer /var/log/syslog
alex_joni: dont clean vesa this problem?
there is something about cron just after the RTAPI: ERROR
awallin: shut down cron
awallin: what about cron?
service settings shows I have anacron and atd running
in syslog it says cd / && run-parts --report /etc/cron.hourly on the line after RTAPI: ERROR
alex_joni, havnt been on in a few months anything new come out in emc?
any hopes of an auto pid?
same as last time..
awallin: you can use "sudo /etc/sbin/init.d/cron stop"
there is a component, but not sure if it brings usefull results
so what cron starts anacron
gefink: I tried sudo /usr/sbin/cron stop but that says Resource temporarily unavailable (can't llock crond.pid)
sudo /etc/sbin/init.d/anacron stop
and killall cron
there's no /etc/sbin on my system
sorry thats my path
sudo /etc/init.d/anacron stop
ok so anacron and cron are stopped
now wait 10 minutes :-)
it should coma at around 41min past, 4 mins to that...
well there was one, but only 50 us
nothing new in syslog, does syslog only log the first RTAPI ERROR that occurs, similar to the warning in EMC?
syslog shold log all errors
it warned me when the 25us task took 50us a while ago
but no new line in syslog when the 155ms delay came
i dont know . maybe only the first is shown
ok, I will try again at 21:52 and see if I get the error in the log. anyway now there was nothing else in syslog at the time of the 155ms delay
awallin: using vesa now?
alex_joni: this is with nv (I think) as suggested by the 8.04 installer
awallin: humor me, and try vesa once
and see if it still does it
ok, will do.
one last idea : try "option noAccel" in /etc/X11/xorg.conf in the section Device
gefink: that's for nv
but then it's not much different than vesa
alex i tried with success for vesa
I'm running dpkg-reconfigure and it asks about framebuffer? should I use it?
gefink: using noAccel with vesa?
awallin: don't use dpkg-reconfigure
it's just one line to replace (and it's easier to create a backup of the file.. )
alex_joni: so just manual editing of xorg.conf I wonder where it is?
gefink: ok, will try to rember
awallin: btw, the rtai_smi module exists for 8.04 too
maybe it's a bit newer and knows about your hardware
sudo insmod /usr/realtime-*/modules/rtai_smi.ko
sudo rmmod rtai_smi
then to unload it:
sudo insmod /usr/realtime-*/modules/rtai_smi.ko smiReset=1
sudo rmmod rtai_smi
* alex_joni adds it to the wiki
insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime...': -1 No such device
dmesg says RTAI: Intel chipset not found
ok, so it's still not known
I just have "configured video device" in xorg.conf so the details must be in some other file
awallin: you are right. gi to the section "device"
and insert the line after device
just: Driver "vesa" ?
awallin: yes, make it Driver "vesa"
sorry i past my file
is there a way to restart X without rebooting?
ctrl alt and backspace
ha, that is a reboot with Ubuntu
no.. ctrl alt del is a reboot
it should onl ybe a re-login
ctrl alt backspace will kill X, and gdm will restart it
ctrl-alt-del kills X, which gdm notices
ok, maybe I hit the wrong keys
err - right, bksp ;)
now I get X with a low resolution, so something did change
ctrl-alt-del brings up the shutdown dialog here
wait 10 minits :-)
yep, now I have latency-test running again
started at 22:00
syslog says this: Clocksource tsc unstable (delta= 154621535 ns)
Time: pit clocksource has been installed
try using a different clocksource
let me grab you a bootoption
something with a dynamically changing clock speed of the cpu?
emc uses the tsc to deliver the "motion controller" overrun messages and also for all time values reported in 'halcmd show', so if the tsc doesn't work these alerts may be spurious.
tsc is the time stamp clock. back when it was introduced on pentiums it was a simple counter that increased at exactly the clock rate
(which was of course fixed)
google finds someone using: clocksource=acpi_pm
that won't work
acpi is disabled
on the kernel line when booting?
ok, will reboot...
but if TSC is unreliable then probably the latency-test results are unreliable
yes, rtapi/emc will be using the tsc no matter what kernel boot options you use
so the *glitch* you're seeing might only be wrong reports from TSC
wonder if that is happening on my system
well, it does result in the emc warning message and following errors
awallin: check dmesg and look for odd times
things that are out of order
alex_joni: could be enabling acpi an option?
gefink: on a by-case basis maybe
there was something about acpi in the BIOS but I left all the default values as is
alex_joni: only in this one case
gefink: so if you decide to try to enable it on your machine, then you might find configuration where it works
but I don't think a kernel with ACPI enabled will work ok for most people
alex_joni: i dont think this is my problem- but a option for failing TSC
gefink: I saw reports about the TSC even with stock ubuntu kernels (with full-ACPI and all)
alex_joni: i also think ACPI makes most people problems, but awallin could use it as timer
ti replace TSC
the boot option doesn't seem to do anything, I still get 155ms of delay and at the same time the Clocksource tsc unstable (delta=154ms) followed by Time: pit clocksource has been installed
ok, then I guess you need clocksource=pit
but that doesn't mean you won't get the latency error
awallin: was this a machine that worked ok at some point?
* alex_joni is running out of ideas to try
it has been working OK with stepper motors through the parallel port with emc2.0.x
and the same version of ubuntu?
but since that emc version doesn't report errors (I think)
jepler: initially on 6.06
but updating to 2.2.5 showed him the overrun
and switching to 8.04 isn't any better than 6.06
yes, I had 6.06 with steppers and saw this 155ms thing also on 6.06. Now I have 8.04 and 2.2.5
awallin: might be that you just didn't notice it with steppers
but 155ms is way too much even for servos
awallin: lost steps? in 0.15 sec ther must a big "stop"
gefink: nothing that we would notice as really bad. did 1-2h runs with the steppers sometime
awallin: maybe something else changed too? BIOS setting?
not every 10min for sure
alex_joni: plugged in a m5i20 card, updated to emc2.2.5
hmm.. I doubt the m5i20 is the latency killer.. but maybe try another PCI slot?
if it's on a shared IRQ ..
only thing I find in dmesg is: rtai_sched: no version for "rtai_linux context" found: kernel tainted
if ther are no stopping motors i tend to a mesurementerror, not a real stop
awallin: did you try to run 2.2.5 ?
no, I can try that also
you said you get an error (Unexpected realtime delay..)
such a stop with a stepper should be fatal
but you also mentioned an ferror at some point
or did I misread?
yes, at the shop with the servos I get a real-time error message pop-up which is usually followed by a following error pop up
2.0.5 had the servo-thread overrun check
now I'm in the lab so can't run the motors
2.0.3 and earlier did not
awallin: same machine?
jepler: ok, but 2.1.x has an additional check.. right?
yes, same PC, the m5i20 is still there but unplugged the cables
the one with task 1..
now I'm running the sim config and we will see if I get a real-time delay message within 10min
sounds like you should..
yes, now I got it.
awallin: try the sim machine who sounds the PC-Speaker
2.66 2.64 2.67 and so on between calls normally, and now 413
as jepler pointed out these may not be nanoseconds but cpu ticks
gefink: which config is that?
sim_inch.ini - inch setup with steps routed to the PC speaker instead of parport
that is readable in the selectdialog
on 2.2.5 ?
so you thing a 155ms delay would be audible?
yes. verry verry clear. we speak about 0.15 seconds
hmm something like g1x110f10 should take 11 minutes?
yes so i think
i hope that gives enough steps for nice sound
I don't have absloute pitch :)
but it does beep quite nicely at f10
there's a clear gap in the tone, and emc throws the real-time delay dialog at me.
I am done listening to the pc speaker for today
awallin: now im 100% out of idears.
I have one or two other machines I could try
awallin: last think I can think of is the 5i20 and PCI slot
but it seems the graphics card or the driver is not the problem?
awallin: seems like it
awallin: disasemble and crossmount (just joking)
ok, I can do a test tomorrow without the m5i20, since we didn't get lost steps every 10min with the steppers
awallin: can you use a Pata harddisk or boot the Pata cdrom?
gefink: if he had 6.06 and 2.0.x, then I guess it's pata
gefink: this is a sata hdd, I could maybe find a pata one to try with
the 6.06 was on a pata drive but that drive died
awallin: im sure it happens if you work on a verry expensive thing
I dont trust sata with linux
ok so first test tomorrow is without m5i20, then with a pata drive. I need to go now but I will report how it goes. Thanks for all the help and suggestions
awallin: sorry it didn't work out better
the 10 minute beep gave the rest
good night all
skunkworks: could i get a copy of the english hardware docs on the pic_8255 card?
I would download it - as I don't know how long I will keep it up there. (I am sure someone will get upset ;))
i grabbed it! thx ( i only found my old Thai version )
and printed it! ( not to be lost again i hope _
i wonder if they'd release the src for their library. I'll ask.
Left the steppers just sitting for a while now, running about 140-150F, perhaps I should heat sink them.
if you weren't told this before..., some drivers will sense 'idle' after a time and reduce the current to the stepper ( and of those, some may have a bit of delay waking up )
has anyone run their limit switches to their amps and not back to emc? (just run 'near home' switches back to emc, so the next encoder Z phase is watched for)
Yes, this had it, I jumpered it out and didn't unjumper it after setting the motor current. Was concerned about the start delay so I wasn't sure if I wanted it.
lotsa amps have limit switch inputs ("fwd enable, reverse enable" )
K`zan: ask around about that temp rise, sounds enuf for cooked pork
I'd use it if it gained 20/30 degrees
err, make that lost 20/30 degrees
Ok enabled the idle current reduction.
Letting it sit for a half hour or so and will check the temp again.
on an L298 the limit switch could just interrrupt the enA enB pins, maybe a pull down on the opened side
K`zan: cool ( i hope )
Gotta redo the z axis, now that I put it together I can see what / where the problems are.
Engaging the idle reduction jumper take the temp down to 97-104F!
[22:55:41] <BigJohnT> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlXCdfPsQUU
did the fan survive?
it sure cuts a lot faster than it starts
just got done cutting all the slats to support the material
just being careful
now the saw horses are out from underneath
yes it di eric
Will be glad when I get my silly little project doing something :).
mine just got finished making itself
Must be a nice feeling :). I'm creating a prototype from the looks of it :). Hacking the original idea to what I have / want. Design on the fly makes my brain hurt fairly often :).
been a long road but fun
Understand that, but worth it in the end.
It will be, it will be, it will be, it will be, it will be, it will be, it will be... LOL
let it be?