#emc | Logs for 2008-05-02

[00:00:07] <renesis> because ive never used these pyramid tip tools before
[00:00:27] <renesis> haha i broke one because i left feed overide at 200%, 20ipm with a .005" tip
[00:00:35] <renesis> lasted awhile too, haha
[00:00:41] <dmes1> worry about them then cut the acrylic at 4-5 am... and it'll work out
[00:00:53] <renesis> yeah thats the plan
[00:01:09] <renesis> the alumnum goes fast, the taig eats it
[00:01:14] <renesis> and it dont gotta be pretty
[00:01:20] <renesis> just gotta have surface area
[00:01:43] <renesis> okay enough rest 4:20 is 40min over bbl
[00:01:43] <dmes1> good luck... and if you cant make it right .... make it shinny
[00:01:48] <renesis> thanks again for tip
[00:01:58] <renesis> sec
[00:02:30] <renesis> http://www.flickr.com/groups/electronics_efnet/pool/
[00:02:49] <renesis> pics of a laser cut parts for acrylic open baffle speaker
[00:03:05] <renesis> someone did that in san jose for me, is all for maker faire
[00:03:39] <renesis> haha, is weird seeing my design in clean cut acrylic 500mi away =\
[00:03:53] <renesis> anyway gotta go bye
[00:11:45] <assargadon> I feel I failed to find the correct way
[00:11:58] <assargadon> I need some kind of vector
[00:12:21] <assargadon> so, I'll search the solution tommorow
[00:14:45] <renesis> haha i think i accomplished nothing with emc for like a week
[00:15:19] <renesis> its pretty neaty neat tho once you kinda get where all the files are and what the settings do
[00:16:06] <assargadon> it's not a problem really
[00:16:17] <assargadon> problem is hmmmm
[00:16:26] <assargadon> specific russian equipment
[00:16:29] <renesis> you just have weird hardware?
[00:16:38] <renesis> heheh, ok yeah, my thing is easy so i dunno
[00:17:03] <renesis> my thing i can just drop my one config file over a default setup and im done
[00:17:53] <renesis> i wonder what GCAM will do if i do outside compensation and set the pocket option
[00:17:55] <renesis> eheheh
[00:17:58] <assargadon> step-and-dir?
[00:18:10] <renesis> yeah, its microstepped tho
[00:18:27] <renesis> so its pretty hard on the software step gen
[00:20:02] <renesis> tho once i figured out what minimum time i needed for the realtime loop, its worked perfect
[00:20:22] <renesis> like, its totally diff than windows machine control
[00:20:30] <renesis> windows, you breath on the system wrong, the machine dwells
[00:20:43] <renesis> the screensaver pops up, machine dweels, monitor blanks, machine dwells
[00:21:16] <renesis> emc runs on default ubuntu, which is bloaty as hell, and i can like browse web and look at docs while machine cycles are going
[00:21:24] <renesis> machine doesnt stop, ever
[00:21:33] <renesis> performance is like night and day
[00:22:54] <renesis> and axis visual feedback makes turbo seem silly and mach seem ugly
[00:25:22] <skunkworks> renesis: like this? http://imagebin.org/17222
[00:25:58] <renesis> yeah windows people dont understand
[00:26:21] <renesis> like, i can edit images and listen to music on my cnc machine
[00:26:44] <renesis> i cant even do that all the time on my windows xp general use box =(
[00:27:37] <renesis> linux cad/eda needs to be like 5 years from now already
[00:27:47] <renesis> geda makes me cry =(
[00:29:36] <renesis> if lunix could do 3d cad/cam and a better integrated eda suite, i could go back to blackbox and slackware or whatever and be happy for the rest of my life
[00:32:31] <renesis> i guess gcam/eagle/qcad kinda works, but it feels so comprimised compared to eagle on windows and autocad and sw (i use gcam on the windows too)
[00:42:52] <dmes1> ren you discovered VAPT yet??
[00:43:34] <dmes1> mind you you too young
[00:44:01] <renesis> wtf is vapt?
[00:44:31] <dmes1> visual APT ( automatically programmed tool)
[00:44:43] <renesis> no
[00:44:51] <renesis> its for gcode output?
[00:45:08] <renesis> gcam is something im helping someone develop
[00:45:27] <dmes1> yes of course .. the only thing that matters
[00:45:27] <renesis> he codes, i either go yay, or eh, or wtf
[00:45:34] <renesis> haha
[00:45:43] <renesis> well, i was gonna say no boards matter too
[00:45:51] <renesis> but gerbers are rs274 too =\
[00:46:09] <jmkasunich> any welders here?
[00:46:15] <dmes1> ya
[00:46:28] <jmkasunich> please don't giggle too loud: http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/index.html
[00:46:31] <jmkasunich> my first welding
[00:46:35] <renesis> haha i got bored at mig and stop going to class
[00:46:44] <renesis> i told that old man id get bored with the metal crayon
[00:47:55] <renesis> the 4 hours of tig i snuck in at the beginning was some of the most awesome shit ive seen in my life
[00:47:58] <dmes1> pretty bird shit... whats the other side looke like.... did you get pentatrration
[00:48:22] <jmkasunich> dmes1: which one? the middle one?
[00:48:38] <renesis> ha thats not bad for random metal
[00:49:09] <jmkasunich> it was not great, probaby 50% of the back was closed, the other 50% you could still see the gap
[00:49:33] <renesis> thats mig?
[00:49:38] <jmkasunich> torch
[00:49:44] <renesis> oh, yeah dude thats good
[00:49:48] <dmes1> 1st weld is the bests
[00:49:56] <renesis> definitely for your first try, that shits hard, haha
[00:50:15] <jmkasunich> I also did that one from both sides - the back didn't look as nice first time around
[00:50:16] <renesis> they made us oxy-gas weld and oxy-jet cut first
[00:50:23] <renesis> it made mig really easy and boring
[00:50:45] <dmes1> all others are too cold.... your trying to take your time... welding isnt like that.... you work at the speed of the process
[00:51:00] <jmkasunich> I got the torch because they claim it can welds lots of different stuff
[00:51:11] <renesis> the pyramid thing looks good
[00:51:26] <renesis> heh, thats really your first time torch welding?
[00:51:31] <jmkasunich> yeah
[00:51:32] <renesis> most people make more of a mess
[00:51:48] <skunkworks> heh - after stick welding as a kid - mig is awesome. I have only watch someone tig.. Looks even cooler. I have only brased with a torch.
[00:51:59] <dmes1> VERY nicely done my friend
[00:52:00] <jmkasunich> I spent about two hours, and the flame was on most of the time
[00:52:29] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: do you use some sort of filler? or do you just reflow the existing metal?
[00:52:36] <dmes1> small circles.. and wags... :)
[00:52:37] <jmkasunich> wire filler
[00:52:50] <dmes1> and tap tap tapp
[00:52:51] <jmkasunich> this torch has a nice small soft flame
[00:52:52] <renesis> skunkworks: dude its like, add rod to godlight plasma ball
[00:53:04] <jmkasunich> I have no experience with "regular" torches so I can't compare
[00:53:06] <renesis> its alot like torch welding
[00:53:14] <renesis> the way you kinda push the pool around
[00:53:17] <jmkasunich> renesis: you talking about tig?
[00:53:21] <renesis> yeah
[00:53:40] <skunkworks> * skunkworks watches the video
[00:53:42] <jmkasunich> from what I had been reading, I figured I wanted to learn TIG, cause it seems the most versatile (different metals, etc)
[00:53:42] <renesis> if you can gas torch, you can prob TIG ok too with a little practice
[00:53:47] <jmkasunich> but lots of money
[00:53:49] <dmes1> same thing only hotter flame and smaller filler
[00:53:57] <renesis> mig is pretty easy compared to gas or tig
[00:54:02] <renesis> yeah
[00:54:16] <renesis> like, the heat goes exactly where you want
[00:54:30] <dmes1> mig is a metal glue gun...
[00:54:33] <jmkasunich> how big is the flame on a regular torch?
[00:54:41] <renesis> gas torch is like, heat everwhere, reflecting back at you, getting in your gloves
[00:54:46] <renesis> kinda sucks, fire is neat tho
[00:54:54] <renesis> dmes1: crayon!
[00:55:29] <renesis> jmkasunich: comes in all sizes
[00:55:33] <dmes1> even a 000 tip is .008-.010" i believe.... and its imposible to work with
[00:55:39] <renesis> they even make tiny micro torches
[00:55:56] <jmkasunich> yeah, my ex-wife had a jeweler's torch
[00:56:05] <jmkasunich> I brazed with it a few years ago
[00:56:08] <renesis> i did alot of 000 thru #2 tip stuff,
[00:56:16] <jmkasunich> never welded anything with it
[00:56:35] <renesis> its weird how bigger torches throw heat everywhere
[00:56:50] <jmkasunich> the flame on this thing is about 1/4 to 5/16" long
[00:56:56] <jmkasunich> (the main blue part)
[00:56:59] <renesis> like, youll be welding towards a corner, and the flame tip kinda bends arouns and blows heat at your neck or gloves
[00:57:01] <dmes1> tig... is all a matter of grinding the 'TROde to fit the hole or poop your fixin' ive had moulds micro tig'd
[00:57:02] <renesis> sucks
[00:58:33] <dmes1> thats an oxidizing flame...
[00:59:29] <renesis> not the flame tip really just the whole blast of heat coming off it
[00:59:59] <dmes1> have you ever burned with HHO???
[01:00:12] <renesis> nope, just acetylene
[01:00:39] <renesis> man wtf, 'dont go over 15, it blows up at 15psi' WTF HOW ABOUT, DONT GO OVER 13, OR SOMETHING
[01:00:52] <dmes1> ive seen demos.. HHO seems the BOMB for fusion welding
[01:00:55] <renesis> hehe welding class is fun
[01:01:12] <renesis> yeah it looks neat
[01:01:33] <renesis> how much do the little units cost?
[01:01:45] <dmes1> not knowing
[01:02:01] <renesis> i seen vid demos of them welding off a little square foot box
[01:02:06] <jmkasunich> that torch I got is expensive compared to the basic oxy-acet torch - $369
[01:02:16] <dmes1> i'll build 1 for under 500 bucks im sure
[01:02:32] <renesis> jmkasunich: just for the body, or like valves and tips and stuff?
[01:02:54] <jmkasunich> body, valves, tips, etc, but not regulators, hoses, or tanks
[01:03:10] <dmes1> not J's torch set-up
[01:03:27] <jmkasunich> I got the kit on the left on this page: http://www.cobratorches.com/11.html
[01:06:03] <dmes1> kids are just damage control waiting to happen... probable broken thumb and wrist in the last 1 minute
[01:06:23] <jmkasunich> ouch
[01:06:44] <dmes1> not mine i dont feel a thing...
[01:07:55] <dmes1> sorry it may seem heartless but my 2 boys do more damage to themselves than is inflicted on them...
[01:33:42] <tomp2> i was just tuning a system and it has velocity mode amplifiers and a velocity loop in the cnc ( not EMC).
[01:33:50] <tomp2> The command signal from CNC always went to 0 soon after speed was achieved ( becuz the amp was the speed controller, the cnc was just the monitor/corrector ).
[01:33:56] <tomp2> I put the amp into current mode, and the cnc command became constant, and did not return to 0 even tho the velocity was achieved.
[01:33:57] <tomp2> I know these actions are correct, but I had never directly observed them.
[01:34:08] <tomp2> thought it may be of use ;)
[01:34:38] <tomp2> the point is: velocity mode amps and velocity mode control loops fight each other
[01:35:22] <tomp2> (two people driving the car is not good )
[01:38:19] <skunkworks> wait - what about fire trucks? how does that fit in? ;)
[01:39:16] <tomp2> what begins with FU and ends with CK? ( this got soupy sales fired ) the answer: fire truck
[01:43:04] <skunkworks> why does every house that CSI inspects have no lights? They always have to use flashlights?
[01:46:01] <renesis> because the cops turn them off to conserve electricity
[01:46:07] <renesis> to protect and to serve, remember
[01:47:02] <tomp2> ah, snopes sez soupy never said that
[02:08:36] <dmes1> bulsshit
[02:25:45] <Sweeper> dude, snopes is a conspiracy
[02:28:51] <Sweeper> http://xkcd.com/250/
[02:46:39] <toastyde1th> toastyde1th is now known as toastydeath
[06:20:46] <SkinnYPup> Any one else around now that has used Gcnccam?
[06:21:59] <SkinnYPup> I can add tools and layers, but it won't draw any profile or feature lines , nor will it make more g-code than a bit of opening and closeing code
[06:47:06] <K`zan> Night folks
[08:01:14] <anonimasu> tomp: you there?
[08:17:54] <alex_joni> SkinnYPup: sorry.. all I know is from the wiki
[08:19:09] <SkinnYPup> alex_joni: thanks I don't have the problem running from the launch icon only from terminal
[08:19:27] <SkinnYPup> took me a minute to figure that one.
[08:21:26] <assargadon> hi there
[08:22:04] <assargadon> Today I'll make another effort to make something with EMC
[08:57:57] <assargadon> so
[08:58:09] <assargadon> I overlooked manuals yeasterday
[08:58:23] <assargadon> Users and Integrators one
[08:58:57] <assargadon> If I understand everything correctly, I should write driver for my Mill's controller
[08:59:34] <assargadon> is it correct?
[09:00:04] <archivist> depends on controller
[09:01:06] <assargadon> archivist, it's not one from list
[09:01:52] <archivist> what sort of controller
[09:02:25] <assargadon> it some black box, which connects to computer by LPT cable from one side
[09:02:34] <assargadon> and to axes from other
[09:02:44] <assargadon> You can use some kind of protocol
[09:02:54] <archivist> stepperS?
[09:03:01] <assargadon> to catch some information about robot's state
[09:03:04] <assargadon> no
[09:03:06] <assargadon> servos
[09:03:20] <assargadon> and this information is quite simple
[09:03:37] <assargadon> i.e. "state of position encoder"
[09:03:42] <assargadon> 1 or 0
[09:03:54] <assargadon> state of endstops
[09:04:14] <assargadon> 1 or 0 for every one
[09:04:47] <archivist> hmm EMC has the servo control in software
[09:04:59] <assargadon> there are a lot of information about stepdir configuration
[09:06:00] <archivist> if all step dir then possibly treat as a stepper system and use stepconf
[09:06:19] <assargadon> I can emulate stepdir programmaticaly
[09:07:03] <assargadon> that's why I thinking about driver...
[09:07:35] <archivist> the system can do step dir without writing drivers
[09:08:19] <assargadon> archivist, system can do it if my hardware is stepdir-based
[09:08:34] <archivist> yes
[09:08:38] <assargadon> and if stepdir lines controlled with LPT bits
[09:08:41] <assargadon> isn't it?
[09:08:43] <archivist> yes
[09:08:49] <assargadon> but my system don't
[09:09:42] <assargadon> I should use 2 outport instructions
[09:09:52] <assargadon> to send a command to my robot
[09:10:34] <assargadon> and 2 outport+1/2 inport instructions to catch an information from it
[09:10:46] <assargadon> 1/2 mean 1 or 2
[09:13:20] <assargadon> do someone can provide me with some kind of efforts vector?
[09:14:54] <archivist> remember emc expects to control the servo, you have external loops, so it wont be easy
[09:15:20] <assargadon> ammm
[09:15:31] <assargadon> can you reformulate your words?
[09:15:37] <assargadon> my english is poor
[09:16:33] <assargadon> do you mean emc lack some kind of "more direct" control of my servos?
[09:16:36] <archivist> there are others in here who could explain in your language possibly
[09:16:55] <archivist> emc has direct control
[09:17:16] <archivist> is doesnt do indirect
[09:17:51] <assargadon> do you mean EMC expects some lines in my LPT
[09:17:51] <alex_joni> archivist: he has some box which uses a serial connection to control to
[09:17:55] <alex_joni> assargadon: right?
[09:18:03] <archivist> parallel alex
[09:18:12] <assargadon> alex, LPT, not serial
[09:18:23] <alex_joni> ok, the port is parallel
[09:18:27] <alex_joni> but there is some protocol
[09:18:31] <assargadon> yes
[09:18:34] <alex_joni> or do you simply have bits set?
[09:18:43] <assargadon> protocol, not bits
[09:18:45] <archivist> but has internal servo as far as I can see
[09:18:50] <alex_joni> assargadon: sending packages over the parallel port is still a serial link :)
[09:18:59] <alex_joni> well.. ok, parallel link.. but anyways
[09:19:05] <assargadon> really you have BITS, but after some kind of request
[09:19:12] <alex_joni> assargadon: ok, so protocol
[09:19:23] <alex_joni> the problem is that emc2 wants to do motor control by itself
[09:19:33] <alex_joni> what you want means you need to hack up emc2 pretty good
[09:19:35] <assargadon> yes, I understand it now
[09:19:50] <assargadon> even LPT driver cant change data direction
[09:19:51] <alex_joni> instead of the motion controller in emc2, you want your own component which sends things to the control box
[09:20:15] <assargadon> yes, is it "driver" in HAL therms?
[09:20:22] <alex_joni> no, you won't be using HAL
[09:20:30] <alex_joni> I mean, I don't think you can use HAL
[09:20:47] <alex_joni> what you can use from emc2 is task/GUI and g-code interpreter
[09:20:48] <assargadon> is HAL used fo things like
[09:20:55] <alex_joni> thre rest you'll have to redo
[09:21:03] <assargadon> "modelate the way how endstop parraleled" ?
[09:21:09] <alex_joni> assargadon: basicly there are 2 approaches
[09:21:29] <alex_joni> 1. keep GUI/task/g-code interpreter and write a new component which talks to your hardware
[09:21:43] <alex_joni> 2. open your control box, and try to connect the motor controllers directly to emc2
[09:21:52] <alex_joni> option 1 means lots of software
[09:21:59] <alex_joni> option 2 means lots of hardware
[09:22:01] <assargadon> alex_joni, how it possible?
[09:22:18] <assargadon> I mean there are just no anought wires in LPT
[09:22:30] <alex_joni> assargadon: obviously not through LPT
[09:22:45] <assargadon> and how, then?
[09:22:54] <assargadon> throught 2-3 LPT's?
[09:22:56] <alex_joni> either with a motion control board, or using a couple paralel ports
[09:22:56] <assargadon> ^)
[09:23:07] <alex_joni> yes, 2-3 LPTs might work (alas slow)
[09:23:15] <assargadon> heh
[09:23:52] <assargadon> documantation told me, motion controller should get commands in some specific language
[09:24:00] <assargadon> I don't remeber how it called
[09:24:09] <assargadon> of course I select 1 ^)
[09:24:12] <alex_joni> assargadon: depends on you if you want option 1 or 2
[09:24:24] <alex_joni> ok, option 1 means you need to get really comfortable with the emc2 code
[09:24:31] <assargadon> as far as I already wrote this code, but not adopted for EMC of course
[09:24:31] <alex_joni> that means, first download it
[09:24:36] <alex_joni> look through the files, etc
[09:24:52] <alex_joni> after you did that I can further point you in the right directions (hopefully)
[09:25:10] <alex_joni> assargadon: but basicly you want to intercept things at the CANON level (canonical commands)
[09:25:14] <assargadon> the reason I select 1 is this black box can serve more than 1 axis
[09:25:24] <assargadon> 5 or 6 maximum, as far as I remeber
[09:25:55] <alex_joni> CANON is a language neutral layer, where g-code is already interpreted and converted to simple commands like: STRAIGHT_TRAVERSE (which is like G0)
[09:26:04] <assargadon> alex_joni, don't I got this sources with ISO?
[09:26:07] <alex_joni> and STRAIGHT_FEED (like G1 with F-word)
[09:26:15] <alex_joni> assargadon: no, you only get compiled packages
[09:26:24] <assargadon> so awfull :)
[09:26:25] <alex_joni> but you can get the sources with: 1. apt-get source emc2
[09:26:52] <alex_joni> 2. http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6744
[09:27:01] <alex_joni> 3. http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/
[09:27:22] <alex_joni> assargadon: there *might* be room for the sources on the ISO, but there surely isn't room for the compile tools
[09:27:47] <alex_joni> btw, sudo apt-get build-dep emc2 will get you all packages needed to compile emc2 by yourself
[09:27:55] <alex_joni> (should be 1-200MB of packages)
[09:34:27] <assargadon> hm...
[09:34:48] <assargadon> ok, I should reboot myself into EMC-powered linux instalation
[09:35:04] <assargadon> and run the sources installation procedure
[09:35:54] <assargadon> alex_joni, I only doubt if it's all harder than writing my own software :)
[09:36:13] <assargadon> from the other point of view, cool experience, isn't it?
[09:44:07] <alex_joni> assargadon: it won't be a simple task
[09:44:34] <alex_joni> assargadon: if you already have something going, then maybe taking the rs274ngc sources and putting the interpreter in your software will be easier
[09:45:02] <alex_joni> integrating a GUI shouldn't be too hard.. but you need libnml for that, and that also requires getting used to it
[09:45:29] <alex_joni> assargadon: I'm sure a good developer could hack it to work in 1-2 months (if he has no emc2-code knowledge when he starts)
[09:47:35] <Vq^> * Vq^ has also been looking a bit at libnml
[09:51:35] <Vq^> in particular the communication with the GUI
[10:01:59] <assargadon> alex_joni, 1-2 months souds awfull, don't it?
[10:02:56] <assargadon> by the way, what is the major difference between my controller's and other supported hardware controllers?
[10:05:15] <assargadon> Is this boards provide you with some more direct control?
[10:14:58] <assargadon> alex_joni (or anybody else), newby question
[10:15:20] <assargadon> where sourced should be situated after "apt-get source emc2" ?
[10:26:16] <assargadon> *sources
[10:29:51] <alex_joni> assargadon: in the folder where you ran the apt-get source
[10:30:12] <alex_joni> bbl
[10:30:23] <assargadon> ah really, thanks :)
[10:32:33] <Vq^> the axis python-modules seems nice
[10:38:20] <assargadon> aha
[10:38:27] <assargadon> hollywood-like view :)
[10:39:13] <assargadon> not just awfull numbers
[10:52:32] <assargadon> hi fenn
[10:52:54] <fenn> hello. freenode keeps giving me this 'erroneous nickname' error and booting me
[10:53:12] <assargadon> :)
[10:53:36] <archivist> fenn ask a staffer in #freenode
[10:53:52] <archivist> is your nick setup fully
[10:54:01] <assargadon> alex provide me with some help in my effort to utilise EMC
[10:54:15] <fenn> i think its because i changed real_name to freenode.net, but the error message wasnt entirely helpful
[10:54:21] <fenn> er.. fennetic.net
[10:56:08] <assargadon> I try to understand the position of HAL
[10:56:17] <assargadon> in all this system
[10:57:01] <assargadon> I mean, I got the idea about main 4 parts
[10:57:31] <fenn> hal is between emc and the hardware
[10:58:02] <assargadon> fenn, don't I/O controller is behind EMC and hardware?
[10:58:03] <Vq^> hal is what lets you compose the modules in the realtime-system
[10:59:06] <assargadon> I see the CUI, Motion Controller, IO Controller and Task Executor
[10:59:10] <assargadon> *GUI
[10:59:11] <Vq^> assargadon: have you tried to run halcmd and list the components and how they are connected with signals between pins? if not try it
[10:59:24] <fenn> assargadon: i dont think there is any IO controller anymore
[10:59:35] <assargadon> fen, hmmmmm
[10:59:59] <assargadon> so all this staff I read is outdated and describes EMC things, not EMC2 ?
[11:00:09] <fenn> maybe
[11:00:14] <assargadon> so pity :)
[11:00:41] <fenn> the docs are at linuxcnc.org/docs
[11:00:50] <assargadon> yes
[11:00:58] <assargadon> I loaded manuals from there
[11:01:04] <fenn> ok
[11:01:16] <assargadon> and one of the first topics is describing of this 4 parts
[11:02:12] <fenn> hmm yeah i think EMCIO is dead
[11:02:36] <assargadon> * assargadon do not understand anything more :)
[11:03:02] <assargadon> I thought I should write my own version of EMCIO
[11:03:19] <fenn> oh, wait, maybe it's not dead
[11:04:05] <assargadon> and use :)
[11:04:31] <assargadon> and use all ather stuff
[11:05:03] <assargadon> as far as other
[11:05:07] <archivist> assargadon, no you need to do more as you have external servo loops
[11:05:18] <fenn> hrm. io is still not RT? wah.
[11:05:48] <assargadon> archivist, my external controller is not really control servos
[11:06:16] <assargadon> for example, you cannot ask the coordinate from it
[11:06:25] <Vq^> what is the use of the 'mdi' script?
[11:06:42] <fenn> Vq^: mdi.py lets you issue a single line as if you were typing in the AXIS mdi box
[11:06:43] <assargadon> it only used for transferring data via limited number of LPT pins
[11:06:55] <Vq^> fenn: how?
[11:07:08] <Vq^> fenn: do i need to specify it as my main user-interface?
[11:07:41] <fenn> according to the CVS log: bin/mdi configs/sim/emc.nml g0 x0
[11:07:54] <archivist> assargadon, I think you need to really think how your current controller works
[11:08:11] <fenn> one would expect the documentation to be in the code, however :)
[11:08:33] <Vq^> ah, that works quite well
[11:08:36] <assargadon> archivist, what do you mean?
[11:08:37] <Vq^> thanks fenn
[11:08:54] <assargadon> I know for shure how it works :)
[11:09:01] <archivist> assargadon, whether the servo loop is in your controller or nor
[11:09:22] <assargadon> archivist, no, there are no any loop in this controller
[11:09:45] <assargadon> if word "loop" means controller use encoder information somehow
[11:10:08] <archivist> but it is byte serial controlled to servo motors!
[11:11:03] <assargadon> archivist, all you can do with this controller is "direct control" of servos
[11:11:41] <assargadon> ie forward/backward/reverse commands
[11:11:57] <archivist> are there any docs on the web we can read
[11:12:00] <assargadon> and "get the encoder status" commands
[11:12:34] <assargadon> archivist, yes, there are several docs on the web. And no, you can't read them, as far as they in russian.
[11:12:47] <assargadon> I think I should write some kind of resume
[11:13:01] <assargadon> to obtain some help from this community
[11:13:06] <assargadon> is it correct?
[11:13:53] <archivist> that would help you understand the internal working as well as help us to help you
[11:15:58] <assargadon> archivist, I understand internal working - finally I already wrote the code, working with it :)
[11:16:11] <assargadon> Using infinit loops instead of realtime core :)
[11:16:51] <assargadon> One only ask before I begin writing the resume
[11:17:20] <gefink> assargadon: You have a userlevel-driverm but want to write a realtimedriver for this device?
[11:17:23] <assargadon> Do "shared memory" architecture used for pins values transferring?
[11:18:22] <assargadon> gefink, sort of this. I have a userlevel-driver and I want to use/adopt it to do some work
[11:18:37] <assargadon> I wonder what I should do for it
[11:18:45] <assargadon> maybe it's realtime-driver
[11:18:48] <assargadon> maebe not
[11:19:10] <assargadon> My program now maling some sort of test stuff:
[11:19:23] <assargadon> 1) moving to start endstop
[11:19:40] <archivist> assrmaybe a block diagram/circuit
[11:19:47] <assargadon> 2) moves to end endstop, measuring lenght of axis in steps
[11:20:20] <assargadon> 3) after reaching finish endstop, it moves to the middle of the axe
[11:20:51] <assargadon> *axis
[11:20:52] <gefink> assargadon: have a look to serport.comp. its a simple driver with IO and realtime. easy to modify
[11:21:13] <assargadon> gefink, thanks, maybe it will be usefull
[11:21:41] <assargadon> ok
[11:21:54] <assargadon> I switching to writing a resume about my machine
[11:45:48] <assargadon> I'll kill admin on my job
[13:21:25] <tomp> SkinnYPup: re: gCncCam, did you read his manual? did you read the wiki page? as assurance, I can get a full path to the details and away from them. maybe you need to uses the 'entry path' exit path' menu items?
[13:21:46] <tomp> anonimasu: just in now, hello
[14:38:20] <Jessica> Heya folks. do many of you all do woodworking on your machines?
[14:40:09] <OoBIGeye> Jessica: i think most can do woodworking but most seems to run metal...
[14:40:58] <BigJohnT> I turn metal into vapor with mine...
[14:41:03] <Jessica> I just made my first wood cut on my new machine. my old machine (made with floppy steppers!) didn't have the torque to do wood.
[14:41:34] <OoBIGeye> BigJohnT: don't get wood to close ;)
[14:41:37] <Jessica> so, now that I CAN cut wood, I was wondering if anyone had tips for routing a nice clean cut.
[14:41:57] <OoBIGeye> Jessica: insane rmp is the way to go :)
[14:41:58] <cradek> what diameter of tool and spindle rpm do you have?
[14:42:10] <Jessica> RPM?
[14:42:12] <cradek> generally, a metal cutting machine spins way too slowly
[14:42:29] <BigJohnT> It turns wood into vapor and charcoal... hmmm how do I know?
[14:42:56] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: unless you're making diamonds, it's not interesting
[14:43:05] <Jessica> chris, I'm just using a cheap trim router I picked up at the hardware store. 1/4" router bits for the moment.
[14:43:26] <OoBIGeye> BigJohnT: we (vq and me) tried to burn an old bed with our plasma :)
[14:44:06] <cradek> oh ok, so you do have a spindle made for cutting wood, that's good
[14:44:16] <Jessica> yeah
[14:44:25] <archivist> direction of cut, rpm, and the wood type itself
[14:45:05] <cradek> I wonder if a woodworking group might have more help
[14:45:14] <cradek> I sure don't have any experience with wood
[14:45:17] <Jessica> my first little test cut I got a lot of char on the edge of a piece of junk plywood. I also got a lot of wood fuzz on the edge of the cut. it was a nice straight cut though.
[14:46:00] <cradek> char means the tool has to move faster
[14:46:00] <OoBIGeye> isn't plywood hard to machine, the woodgrain isn't in one line right?
[14:46:01] <Jessica> Chris, all the wood working forums I've found so far are empty or still sleeping! That's why I came back home to you all...
[14:46:07] <cradek> I think the fuzz is normal
[14:46:16] <cradek> should come off with just a bit of sandpaper
[14:46:22] <Jessica> oobi: dunno
[14:46:30] <archivist> fuzz, could be wrong direction or poor wood, or rpm too low
[14:46:54] <OoBIGeye> you can decrease the amount of "fuss" if you run the cutter against the cut...
[14:46:55] <Jessica> tool has to move faster? you mean RPMs or cut speed?
[14:46:57] <BigJohnT> or dull tooling
[14:47:09] <OoBIGeye> rmp just floor it :)
[14:47:18] <archivist> 20k rpm plus
[14:47:41] <BigJohnT> Jessica: look up "surface feet per minute wood cutting" on google you should get a wealth of info
[14:47:56] <Jessica> dunno what this cheap menards trim router puts out. it's a junk tool i just bought for testing the machine.
[14:48:12] <archivist> it needs to slice the wood before it has time to bend away
[14:49:12] <Jessica> I'll make my own spindle eventually, so I can cut PCBs
[14:49:22] <Jessica> Arch, what do you mean?
[14:50:09] <archivist> tearing is related to the inertia of the cut
[14:50:43] <archivist> hence wood working machines have high spindle speeds
[14:50:50] <Jessica> ok, so faster is better?
[14:50:55] <archivist> yup
[14:50:59] <Jessica> all good
[14:51:32] <archivist> and a dull cutter at speed soon produces smoke and black wood
[14:51:52] <Jessica> I put a rheostat in line with the router so I can cut plastic eventually, but for the wood tests I have it opened wide up
[14:52:13] <Jessica> i wouldn't be surprised if I had a dull cutter
[14:52:37] <OoBIGeye> try cutting your fingernail on it... thats what i do...
[14:52:38] <Jessica> what is the best type of bit for wood work?
[14:53:03] <Jessica> oobi: what? scratching the nail?
[14:53:34] <OoBIGeye> exactly
[14:53:48] <OoBIGeye> scratch the top of the nail...
[14:53:58] <OoBIGeye> if it cuts then the bit is fine...
[14:54:08] <Jessica> With this manicure???? you must be kidding!
[14:54:17] <archivist> hehe
[14:54:23] <Jessica> *chuckles*
[14:54:37] <BigJohnT> then get a volunteer to lend you a nail
[14:54:45] <OoBIGeye> Jessica: sorry i got "gender" specific or something :D
[14:54:51] <BigJohnT> or cut a piece of paper
[14:54:52] <archivist> manicure and machine shop!! I dont believe you
[14:55:17] <OoBIGeye> archivist: i'm on your side
[14:55:37] <Jessica> Arch, you caught me... my nails look like garbage most of the time. oil and dirt... chips.. ugh!
[14:55:38] <Vq^> it is a bit of a stretch
[14:56:27] <OoBIGeye> you can borrow my nail if you wan't to...
[14:56:29] <OoBIGeye> http://hgsystem.no-ip.org/~kent/14.jpg
[14:56:36] <OoBIGeye> *lol*
[14:56:52] <Jessica> EEEK!
[14:56:59] <Jessica> now, that is disgusting!
[14:57:13] <OoBIGeye> it hurt like hell to...
[14:57:24] <Jessica> so, any thoughts on the best cutter for wood?
[14:58:01] <cradek> I think wood cutting tools are almost always carbide
[14:58:06] <cradek> wood dulls everything it touches
[14:58:29] <assargadon> how called the device in english
[14:58:46] <assargadon> which can be enabled or disabled
[14:58:56] <assargadon> and when it enblet, it hold something
[14:59:02] <archivist> relay
[14:59:03] <assargadon> *enabled
[14:59:07] <assargadon> nono
[14:59:18] <assargadon> the robot "hand" i mean
[14:59:24] <archivist> gripper
[14:59:33] <BigJohnT> Jessica carbide is the best but there is good and cheap carbide tools
[14:59:54] <assargadon> tahnks :)
[14:59:56] <OoBIGeye> assargadon: enefactor?
[15:00:01] <OoBIGeye> *endefactor
[15:00:32] <SWPadnos> end effector
[15:00:42] <Jessica> Thanks, John
[15:00:43] <assargadon> :)
[15:00:48] <alex_joni> gripper is what assargadon means
[15:00:50] <OoBIGeye> * OoBIGeye 's english sucks
[15:00:54] <assargadon> no, gripper is correct word
[15:05:29] <assargadon> I'll finish my rewsume in several minutes
[15:05:52] <assargadon> I wonder you guys provide me with some kind of roadmap :)
[15:34:36] <assargadon> Do someone know how to make table of contents in OpenOffice Writer with links to chapters?
[15:36:28] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:36:55] <SWPadnos> for each chapter, make a chapter heading/title using the "heading 1" style
[15:37:07] <SWPadnos> if you have sub-chapters, use heading 2
[15:38:53] <SWPadnos> on the page where you want the table of contents, go to insert/tables and indexes, and pick "table of contents" or similar
[15:39:20] <SWPadnos> there are options for which things will be included (like outlines and heading styles), and how many levels deep you want to go
[15:39:28] <SWPadnos> gotta run. good luck
[15:40:49] <assargadon> thanks, but problem was hyperlinks, not table of contents
[15:40:57] <assargadon> but I find it already
[15:40:59] <SWPadnos> oh
[15:41:10] <SWPadnos> well, good luck, gotta run :)
[15:53:33] <assargadon> ok, resume is ready, I should publish it somewhere
[16:02:07] <assargadon> agggr
[16:02:19] <assargadon> What FTP client should I use in ubuntu? :)
[16:02:44] <cradek> lftp
[16:02:51] <assargadon> !
[16:02:57] <assargadon> I find one in MC :)
[16:05:37] <alex_joni> I usually use "ftp"
[16:05:54] <jepler> lftp is great commandline ftp. I haven't a clue what a good graphical ftp is.
[16:10:36] <jepler> if you want graphical, I think you can just connect with the regular file browser
[16:11:15] <jepler> File > Connect to Server, select Service type "Public FTP" or "FTP (with login)" as appropriate.
[16:12:18] <jepler> lftp and nautilus also have an option to connect over ssh which is much better than ftp if it's available -- in lftp, use fish://hostname, and in nautilus (file browser) select Service type "ssh".
[16:14:22] <assargadon> http://headache.h1.ru/EMC/RobotResume.html
[16:14:46] <assargadon> I needed some way to upload my files to hosting
[16:14:50] <assargadon> nothing more :)
[16:15:07] <assargadon> ok, as far as my resume ready
[16:15:16] <assargadon> I can torture a gooroos here
[16:15:31] <assargadon> to force them read my resume
[16:15:47] <assargadon> and give me some kind of guideness
[16:16:03] <assargadon> alex_joni, you are first :)
[16:16:11] <assargadon> fenn, you are second
[16:16:21] <assargadon> in line to torturing, I mean :)
[16:17:26] <assargadon> archivist, you are third :)
[16:17:31] <assargadon> http://headache.h1.ru/EMC/RobotResume.html
[16:17:35] <archivist> * archivist hides
[16:17:57] <assargadon> * assargadon lought with diabolic laughting
[16:20:19] <assargadon> It has 3 pages only :)
[16:20:44] <assargadon> and 1 of them is almost completely consists of photo and table of contents :)
[16:22:13] <assargadon> heh...I should to go now
[16:22:17] <assargadon> so pity ;)
[16:22:29] <assargadon> I'll back soon, I hope
[16:22:42] <alex_joni> assargadon: looking at that I would rip the box out, buy some motor drives
[16:22:47] <alex_joni> and a motion board
[16:23:06] <alex_joni> and let emc2 do PID loops, and you can then control it to you rlikings (with accel/vel control, etc)
[16:23:27] <assargadon> emm
[16:23:46] <alex_joni> assargadon: that's just me personally, but I wouldn't want to waste time on this
[16:23:49] <assargadon> you mean replace both motors and control software?
[16:23:56] <alex_joni> no, keep motors and encoders
[16:24:27] <alex_joni> ask awallin about his setup, I would probably chose something similar
[16:28:59] <cradek> looks like you can use up/down pwm on the parport. you could hook the encoders to a second parport and read them with software encoder counting
[16:29:19] <alex_joni> cradek: yeah, and probably do a bit better than that control
[16:30:18] <cradek> do you know the encoder resolution?
[16:33:28] <alex_joni> cradek: no, I know what you've seen there
[16:34:05] <cradek> oh, he left, duh
[16:48:01] <tomp2> his 'encoders' are not encoders, they are pulsgebers, from his description, he cannot get direction ( like 1 sender detector and 1 track )
[16:48:22] <cradek> oh
[16:50:31] <jepler> that simply can't work
[16:50:37] <tomp2> once he removes the stuff that is a problem to EMC, and add what he needs, he has little of what he wanted to salvage ( just a power supply and dc motors and 'machine' ) sorry for the bad estimation :(
[16:51:19] <alex_joni> tomp2: hacking emc2 to make it work with that is not worth the effort imo
[16:52:15] <archivist> his pdf didnt load on my old debian here
[16:57:22] <tomp2> i agree
[16:58:01] <tomp2> archivist: i could read his 'resume' and my friend Vladimir read the Russian :)
[16:58:37] <archivist> heh we had trouble this morning getting sense
[17:01:00] <alex_joni> make that archivist_loss
[17:01:11] <archivist> but im curious http://headache.h1.ru/EMC/RobotResume.html
[17:01:21] <archivist> * archivist sends to me
[17:04:26] <archivist_win> heh double loose gpdf on debian and the winbox cant read his pdf
[17:05:45] <skunkworks_> I read it here on xp and adobe
[17:06:17] <archivist> mine are both old systems adobe 5 on the winbox
[17:07:04] <tomp2> i'm sorry he cant get access to parts, he is interested and willing to work on it
[17:23:47] <BigJohnT> free pizza for everyone that want's to come by and have lunch with us
[17:24:51] <archivist> hehe damned long way to dive for a pizza
[17:25:00] <archivist> drive even
[17:26:32] <alex_joni> archivist: you're closer.. don't complain
[17:28:27] <archivist> you can all come and watch the steam engine I shall be driving sunday and monday
[17:29:39] <alex_joni> meh.. no testdrive?
[17:31:02] <archivist> actualy once we start it, we mainly stand back and keep the visitors happy and safe
[17:32:32] <archivist> http://www.middleton-leawood.org.uk/leawood/images/outside/index.html
[17:33:11] <alex_joni> ah, thought it was a car
[17:33:14] <alex_joni> cool
[17:33:41] <archivist> er slightly bigger
[17:38:56] <alex_joni> I can see that..
[17:47:16] <skunkworks_> Those steam people talk that way.. 'driving' an engine..
[17:47:41] <skunkworks_> expecially when you have to run the valves manually ;)
[18:24:50] <BigJohnT> ahhh, time for a nap now
[18:25:33] <BigJohnT> archivist: cool engine
[18:26:10] <archivist> 800 english gallons per stroke
[18:27:57] <BigJohnT> how far does it raise the water?
[18:29:07] <archivist> hmm 20-30 ft I must measure
[18:30:47] <BigJohnT> nice
[18:30:55] <BigJohnT> what is the rph?
[18:31:08] <archivist> no revs
[18:31:23] <BigJohnT> lol ok sph
[18:31:43] <archivist> non rotating about 4 strokes a minute ish
[18:31:57] <BigJohnT> pretty quick then
[18:32:34] <BigJohnT> must be awesome to run
[18:32:39] <archivist> there is a youtube vid
[18:34:06] <archivist> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIgEQ-r0nU
[18:39:07] <BigJohnT> amazing, but I can't understand what they are saying...
[18:42:26] <BigJohnT> what language are they speaking?
[18:45:36] <archivist> english
[18:46:29] <BigJohnT> lol I knew that I was just teasing...
[18:46:49] <archivist> most obvious voice is Ian not speaking to camera, a derbyshire accent
[18:47:13] <BigJohnT> I worked a number years in west africa with some expats from Britian on an oil rig
[18:47:32] <BigJohnT> some with the heavy accents were hard to understand
[18:47:51] <archivist> hmm did I here me at the end
[18:48:07] <BigJohnT> I'll run it again
[18:48:42] <archivist> may have been me at the handles at the end, or John
[18:49:33] <BigJohnT> on the valves?
[18:50:05] <archivist> not me i think I just listened again
[18:50:21] <archivist> could be our apprentice
[18:55:59] <Assargadon> hi again
[18:56:28] <Assargadon> alex_joni, can you repeat you opinion about EMC using with my robot?
[18:57:13] <alex_joni> logger_emc: bookmark
[18:57:13] <alex_joni> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-05-02.txt
[18:57:37] <Assargadon> hehe :)
[18:57:40] <Assargadon> Thanks
[19:17:27] <Assargadon> Hmmm
[19:17:50] <Assargadon> I examine several quite pesimistic words
[19:18:46] <Assargadon> And I see my PDF isn't as good as I expect :)
[19:20:42] <Assargadon> But I still do not understand, what is the problem.
[19:21:12] <Assargadon> As far as I understand, there are some "interface cards", EMC can work with
[19:21:29] <archivist> a few yes
[19:21:47] <Assargadon> what is the main difference between this interface boards and my controller?
[19:23:51] <lerman> Anybody home?
[19:24:00] <Assargadon> yes, several of as
[19:24:19] <Assargadon> Or maybe key problem is my "encoders", which is not really "encoders" ?
[19:24:31] <lerman> Yesterday (I think), someone was looking for an ftp client. Do you know who that was?
[19:24:44] <Assargadon> yes, I know
[19:24:46] <jepler> lerman: that was Assargadon
[19:25:02] <Assargadon> :)
[19:25:26] <Assargadon> I used Midnight Commander's one
[19:25:35] <lerman> Ah. I just installed fireftp. Seems pretty neat. Looks like filezilla's interface.
[19:25:42] <Assargadon> to upload short description of my robot
[19:25:51] <Assargadon> lerman, thanks :)
[19:25:53] <Assargadon> http://headache.h1.ru/EMC/RobotResume.html
[19:26:01] <lerman> It seems highly rated.
[19:26:19] <Assargadon> I'll test it next time I'll need an FTP :)
[19:26:53] <archivist> I use filezilla on windows, nice and easy
[19:26:54] <lerman> I use Filezilla on Windoze and like it a lot. (I wasn't sure what platform you needed the client for.)
[19:27:34] <Assargadon> alex_joni, cradek and tomp2 agrred my robot is bad and it will never works with EMC
[19:27:50] <Assargadon> archivist too
[19:27:53] <Assargadon> :)
[19:28:07] <jepler> Assargadon: For each type of interface, a different HAL driver is required. These can be difficult to write, and require a lot of knowledge. And sometimes it's impossible -- there is simply no way to make a toaster into a CNC machine by writing software.
[19:28:29] <archivist> Assargadon, I have not read the pdf yet
[19:28:50] <BigJohnT> I can't see it either
[19:28:51] <Assargadon> jepler, this drivers are difficult to write due to EMC arhitecture?
[19:29:30] <Assargadon> I can publish it as ODT or DOC documents :)
[19:30:06] <alex_joni> Assargadon: you should do html :)
[19:30:18] <lerman> Writing drivers for any environment requires a lot of knowledge about the environment.
[19:30:32] <jepler> Assargadon: I believe emc's architecture is good, but that doesn't mean that all types of hardware are easy to write drivers for.
[19:30:49] <lerman> Hello alex_joni : Did you notice that I fixed "your" bug? (Well, actually, my bug.).
[19:30:56] <alex_joni> lerman: yeah, cool
[19:31:02] <alex_joni> talk about fast fixing of bugs :)
[19:31:22] <lerman> Even faster creation of bugs. :-)
[19:31:56] <cradek> also, some designs are inherently bad, like an encoder that does not tell you which way it's turning. you cannot position correctly with these, no matter how much time you spend writing the software.
[19:32:39] <cradek> when you have hardware like this, and you ask for advice, people will tell you to not bother writing the software - instead you should replace the problematic hardware - and these people are correct
[19:32:48] <lerman> If I can't do thorough testing of code, I owe it to the users to at least fix them quickly. Unfortunately, I'm not always very good at that because I don't always keep a testing environment handy.
[19:32:50] <BigJohnT> and fast fixing of the manual...
[19:32:57] <Assargadon> cradek, only problem I see with this encoders is the lowering of resolution...
[19:33:28] <cradek> maybe I did not understand correctly but I thought they have only one channel, so you cannot tell which way they are turning
[19:33:29] <lerman> Ah. That's harder (for me). The manual development environment is not part of my tool set.
[19:34:31] <tomp2> Assargadon: what does this mean ? "So you can count steps, but you can't measure direction. "
[19:34:56] <Assargadon> cradek, it's correct. And yes, it's not as good as two-channel one.
[19:35:14] <Assargadon> But if only you know what way you moves, it's enought
[19:35:18] <Assargadon> don't it?
[19:35:19] <anonimasu> Assargadon: frankly speaking they are crap.
[19:35:28] <jepler> suppose you are cutting from X0 Y0 to X1 Y0. During this move, Y should stay stationary. But, in fact, the cutting forces cause a small motion in Y. How will you know which direction it is?
[19:35:30] <archivist> Assargadon, useless for machine control
[19:35:31] <cradek> Assargadon: no, that assumption is incorrect
[19:35:43] <cradek> for the reason jepler describes
[19:35:59] <cradek> many forces other than from the motor act on a cnc machine
[19:36:48] <Assargadon> cradek, situations as this is making this kind of encoders crap...for "serious" project
[19:37:13] <cradek> it is the job of a servo control loop to keep the table at the commanded position, but you need better encoders for this to be possible
[19:37:17] <Assargadon> but if I want, for example, some kind of painting device
[19:37:25] <Assargadon> it still appendable
[19:37:41] <tomp2> Assargadon: no, crap for EMC. EMC wants to know the correct thing has happened, not just the correct thing was asked for
[19:37:52] <tomp2> thats feedback
[19:38:09] <Assargadon> my goal just now is get some experience, not making a usable tool
[19:38:33] <lerman> Well, stop and direction servo controller have no feedback to EMC. If you have faith, it works.
[19:39:01] <tomp2> Emc cannot tell the correct thing has happened without directional information
[19:39:20] <archivist> Assargadon, incorrect feedback could be positive feedback and the machine will violently hit the endstops or you
[19:39:29] <Assargadon> tomp2, driver can loopback directional information to EMC, isn't it?
[19:39:50] <Assargadon> if only I assume there is no significiant forces other than motors
[19:40:03] <tomp2> driver can only use what the hardware supplies as feedback, it cannot invent the sign of a vector
[19:40:17] <Assargadon> and really I cannot imagine the force which will turn the wormed axis...
[19:40:32] <Assargadon> tomp2, why not? :)
[19:41:05] <Assargadon> archivist, machine cant hit endstops due to achieving endstops stops the axis
[19:41:50] <Assargadon> only force which can rotate the axis is my fingers :)
[19:42:00] <Assargadon> (except the motor of course)
[19:42:20] <BigJohnT> just have an e-stop handy and whirl away
[19:42:38] <tomp2> Assargadon: if it invents it, then it is not a reflection of reality, just an invention. perhaps you can 'create' a sign that is true, i dont know how.
[19:42:56] <Assargadon> I don't know what estopis, despite the fact I saw button with this name in sim-EMCs I run
[19:43:25] <tomp2> estop is short for emergency stop
[19:43:49] <tomp2> it occurs when axis moves too far, amplifier overheats, user panics...
[19:43:59] <Assargadon> :)
[19:44:18] <Assargadon> yes, my controller performs estop in case of overload
[19:44:26] <BigJohnT> or called an oh shit button
[19:44:28] <Assargadon> and it has button for it
[19:44:31] <tomp2> it should stop all possible harm ( motion, spindle, pressure.... )
[19:44:34] <Assargadon> red one :)
[19:45:18] <Assargadon> tomp2, driver can remeber last direction commant it receive from EMC
[19:45:19] <tomp2> Assargadon: i dont know how you can use your hardware with EMC without alex's suggestion ( 1) lotsa hardware changes (2) lotsa software changes
[19:45:25] <BigJohnT> which is normally preceded around here with "hey, hold my beer and watch this"
[19:45:56] <tomp2> Assargadon: yes, i had that thought, but that is what SHOULD be ( ISTWERT ) not what DID happen (SOLWERT)
[19:46:19] <Assargadon> tomp2, I understand limitations of this approach
[19:46:32] <tomp2> Assargadon: BUT it may get you moving, and is #2 ( lotsa software )
[19:46:37] <Assargadon> yes, if I stop my machine by catting the wire
[19:46:46] <Assargadon> and spin axis by fingers
[19:47:04] <Assargadon> it provide me with incorrect result :)
[19:47:18] <Assargadon> I test thee :)
[19:48:14] <tomp2> the idea is use the sign of the command ( like DIR of a step and DIR system ) to be the sign of the 'encoder' pulse. And, make the analog motor do discrete 'steps' to the 'next' pulse and stop....
[19:48:14] <Assargadon> I understand unpleasure about "real world" information inaccessible
[19:48:33] <jepler> Assargadon: so leaving aside the problem with the position feedback in your system, it is possible to talk about what you have to write to get a system like this to work
[19:48:51] <Assargadon> jepler, yes.
[19:48:54] <Assargadon> One second...
[19:49:09] <jepler> You will have to write a hardware driver which uses inb() and outb() to read and write specific bit patterns to the parport
[19:49:11] <Assargadon> I really think I should republish my "resume" in readable format
[19:49:41] <Assargadon> to have less theoretical discussion
[19:49:57] <Assargadon> jepler, I already accomplish this
[19:50:03] <jepler> Assargadon: as a HAL component?
[19:50:09] <Assargadon> no
[19:50:23] <Assargadon> as far as I accomplish this
[19:50:31] <Assargadon> I was told EMC exists
[19:50:45] <jepler> your HAL component will have at least two "functions": one will run frequently (e.g., every BASE_PERIOD), do this I/O and update internal data
[19:50:46] <Assargadon> and instead writing all other machine-independent stuff
[19:50:54] <Assargadon> I should use EMC
[19:51:20] <jepler> the other will run less frequently (e.g., every SERVO_PERIOD) and update the HAL pin outputs.
[19:51:57] <jepler> For instance, one of those outputs would be for a limit switch. You would simply set that HAL value to 1 if the switch is closed according to the latest value read from the hardware, or 0 if it is not
[19:51:59] <Assargadon> jepler it's exactly I wrote in resume :)
[19:52:17] <Assargadon> and asking if this true :)
[19:52:50] <Assargadon> so, I should write some kind of "driver" (in HAL therms)
[19:52:54] <jepler> except for all the problems, yes. you should start reading the documentation and some of the existing hardware drivers.
[19:53:10] <Assargadon> or I/O controller (in general EMC therms)
[19:53:27] <jepler> you should understand what emc will provide (e.g., position command) and require (e.g., position feedback), then figure out how to provide that
[19:54:07] <jepler> in some cases you may wish to take advantage of other HAL components (e.g., pid + pwmgen to convert a position command into a PWM or PDM signal)
[19:56:02] <Assargadon> jepler, but as far as I understand, using "advantage of other HAL components" is not the problem of writing driver, but the problem of building HAL system
[19:56:06] <Assargadon> from the blocks
[19:56:11] <Assargadon> isn't it?
[19:57:10] <jepler> Assargadon: it guides your thought as you decide what the inputs to your component will be. Should your component take a position input and create a motor drive signal based on that and an algorithm you develop? Or will you save your own effort by using pid+pwmgen instead?
[19:57:21] <jepler> either one is possible, because emc is modular
[19:57:49] <Assargadon> jepler, of course I want to make as less work as possible :)
[19:58:11] <Assargadon> Is it correct, that minimal work I can do is something like
[19:58:41] <Assargadon> HAL module with encoder pins and direction pins?
[20:00:08] <tomp2> This is a different, stepwise approach to using your hardware...
[20:00:08] <tomp2> hal (not EMC) could move the dc motor until N counts were seen from the 'encoder'
[20:00:08] <tomp2> and then some clamp/brake applied to the motor.
[20:00:08] <tomp2> The count would be added/subtracted to start position
[20:00:08] <tomp2> according to the sign of the Vcmd sent to the motor amplifier,
[20:00:09] <tomp2> (or use the fwd/rev signal sent to the hbridge).
[20:00:09] <jepler> There is no existing component which accepts "pulse + direction" as input and outputs a position.
[20:00:11] <tomp2> It would not be using EMC much, and HAL a lot.
[20:00:13] <tomp2> IF this was accomplished
[20:00:15] <tomp2> THEN i would begin writing the 'driver' for EMC to use with this hardware.
[20:01:35] <tomp2> (guaranteed to not give your guaranteed positoning :)
[20:02:00] <Assargadon> aha
[20:02:33] <Assargadon> so, it will be wise to make HAL component, which will has 3 pins
[20:02:46] <Assargadon> 2 inputs: pulse bit and dir bit
[20:02:57] <Assargadon> and one output: integer coordinate
[20:03:22] <Assargadon> and maybe one more input bit: reset (setting current offset to 0)
[20:03:39] <jepler> floating-point coordinate is more typical. that is the type of pin that stepgen and encoder use, and the type of pin that emc requires.
[20:03:56] <Assargadon> as far as I'l accomplish this, I'll get some experience with writing HAL modules
[20:04:58] <Assargadon> jepler, floating point un user-defined units?
[20:05:17] <Assargadon> *in
[20:05:33] <Assargadon> but the main idea is correct, so it?
[20:05:37] <Assargadon> *do it?
[20:12:50] <assargadon> I reboot myselfinto Linux
[20:19:21] <assargadon> http://headache.h1.ru/EMC/RobotResume.html is now in HTML format.
[20:20:30] <archivist> er wot I just see a link to a pdf in an htmlpage
[20:20:55] <assargadon> archivist, I think it's your cache
[20:21:06] <assargadon> I test the link before posting
[20:24:46] <assargadon> to abandon cache effect, try http://headache.h1.ru/EMC/
[20:25:09] <archivist> I can see ok now
[20:25:17] <assargadon> I just copied RobotResume.html to index.html
[20:25:29] <assargadon> greate :)
[20:26:18] <assargadon> So, the development vector is making HAL module, which counts current position from step strobs and dir bit
[20:26:39] <assargadon> and testing it with halmeter :)
[20:26:57] <archivist> best to change the opto encoders so you get real feedback
[20:27:31] <assargadon> archivist, maybe - but does it helps SO much?
[20:27:46] <assargadon> I just abandon neednes of this additional module
[20:27:55] <assargadon> but I still need driver, isn't it?
[20:28:57] <assargadon> and I absolutely not sure that adding of second optoswitch is easier than writing this module :)
[20:29:16] <assargadon> in the future it can be good addon :)
[20:30:08] <assargadon> control PCB has the place for second optoswitch, so MAYBE all I should do is find similar one and sold it
[20:30:47] <archivist> hmm trying to save hardware effort by software wont be easy, its the harder way
[20:31:20] <assargadon> archivist, it's depends :)
[20:31:24] <assargadon> on skills
[20:31:59] <archivist> software cannot allways replace hardware
[20:32:10] <assargadon> Writing the code for my machine take me approx 2xtime compared to time af attaching marker to it :)
[20:32:43] <assargadon> archivist, of course
[20:33:58] <assargadon> I'm happy it's now not just "impossible"
[20:34:11] <assargadon> but "you need to write some kind of driver" :)
[20:35:20] <assargadon> I was little desperated after reading your first log, quite pessimistical one
[20:36:36] <archivist> the basic hardware is a good starting point, its the optos and motor control that you should look at
[20:38:40] <assargadon> you mean it's chapters/topics I should looks manuals for, do you?
[20:45:45] <assargadon> by the way, some promotion pictures of EMC2 showed something\
[20:46:00] <assargadon> which looks as GUI for HAL combinating
[20:46:17] <assargadon> is it really so?
[20:46:33] <archivist> spending a week or two learning how opto encoders with two outputs to give direction, and how pwm can control your motors
[20:48:51] <assargadon> archivist, is it so hard? I think learning of how compile and test HAL modules is much, much harder :)
[20:50:02] <archivist> trying to mess with hal with the incorrect hardware will be hard
[20:50:59] <assargadon> archivist, I thought I miss the point
[20:51:10] <assargadon> ah
[20:51:28] <assargadon> Do you mean I should look at "good" hardware descriptions
[20:51:38] <assargadon> to understand how it SHOULD works
[20:51:54] <archivist> yes then you will see emc is a good match
[20:51:55] <assargadon> before trying to cheat with my crap hardware?
[20:52:04] <archivist> yes your getting it
[20:52:34] <assargadon> archivist, I have a good understanding about how good software should works
[20:52:44] <assargadon> *hardware
[20:53:08] <assargadon> pertially it's becouse I spent a lot of time to readint RepRap reports :)
[20:53:12] <assargadon> *partially
[20:54:37] <archivist> how many wires from the opto encoders
[20:54:39] <assargadon> but I have no other machine to run...and I have no skills to build it
[20:55:37] <archivist> machine itself is ok, its a good starting point
[20:56:07] <assargadon> but encoders are bad, isn't it?
[20:56:23] <archivist> how many wires from the opto encoders
[20:56:42] <assargadon> 4
[20:56:51] <assargadon> for every encoder
[20:56:57] <archivist> gnd pwr a,B
[20:57:05] <assargadon> no
[20:57:20] <assargadon> one second, I accumulate my english
[20:58:04] <assargadon> There are black tiny device I call Optoswitch
[20:58:40] <archivist> some have A,B outs
[20:59:06] <assargadon> U-like thing with led in one "leg" and sensor in other "leg"
[20:59:27] <assargadon> those switches has 4 soldering legs
[20:59:32] <archivist> yes I know the simple types
[20:59:54] <assargadon> is it thing you asked me for?
[21:00:27] <archivist> the better ones have a light source and the sensor side has two
[21:00:27] <assargadon> or you asked about encoder to be sure they REALLY has one switch?
[21:00:49] <assargadon> like mices :)
[21:01:15] <assargadon> archivist, I swear, there is ONLY pulse counter
[21:01:17] <archivist> a mice only needs 3 wires
[21:01:29] <assargadon> I can say it for sure
[21:01:54] <assargadon> 1) I can clearly see empty place for second optoswitch
[21:02:41] <assargadon> 2) Manufacturer specification told me htere are two variations: one with 2 optoswithes for measuring direction, and other with one
[21:03:01] <assargadon> 3) controller box has a plenty LEDs
[21:03:11] <assargadon> one for every status pin
[21:03:22] <assargadon> so there are 4 leds for every axis
[21:03:27] <assargadon> 2 for endstops
[21:03:46] <assargadon> and 2 for encoder
[21:04:15] <assargadon> and only one of encoder's leds blinking when axis turning
[21:04:50] <assargadon> There are no mistake - it's really one-channel pulse-counter-like encoder
[21:04:55] <assargadon> so pity...
[21:04:58] <archivist> if possible get the better opto
[21:05:55] <assargadon> archivist, thing you tald about mean total replacing the electronics
[21:06:08] <assargadon> adding additional LPT port
[21:06:40] <assargadon> and using the "ordinary" EMC software
[21:06:46] <assargadon> is it correct?
[21:06:52] <archivist> could well be the best option
[21:07:26] <assargadon> it's too hard sentence for my english
[21:07:32] <assargadon> can you reformulate?
[21:07:46] <assargadon> "Maybe it's best option" ?
[21:07:57] <archivist> yes
[21:08:12] <assargadon> Except for my skills
[21:08:25] <assargadon> yes, I have soldering iron
[21:08:31] <assargadon> solder
[21:08:37] <assargadon> and even multimeter
[21:09:02] <assargadon> but I completely unskilled in "real-world" electronics making
[21:09:24] <assargadon> I mean I experimenting with software IC emulators
[21:09:35] <assargadon> but not with real ICs
[21:10:17] <assargadon> And I should rebuild all the electronics
[21:10:40] <assargadon> even if it's just some kind of relays for motors
[21:11:00] <assargadon> and adapters for encoders/endstops
[21:11:28] <assargadon> if you NEVER making ANY electronics circuit - it hard task, isn't it?
[21:11:52] <anonimasu> assargadon: you usually dont ever run motors on relays
[21:12:21] <assargadon> anonimasu, and how then?
[21:12:21] <anonimasu> assargadon: you use some kind of driver circuit like a H bridge
[21:12:45] <assargadon> is it some kind of stuff
[21:12:57] <assargadon> with blinking leds-sensors pairs?
[21:13:12] <assargadon> preventing computer from burning?
[21:13:36] <assargadon> * assargadon google for h-bridge now
[21:14:29] <assargadon> ah, thanks to wikipedia
[21:15:20] <assargadon> anonimasu, do you mean there are existing boards with (several) H-bridges on its
[21:15:54] <assargadon> and EMC has drivers for those boards?
[21:16:21] <anonimasu> usuall you have a motor driver that accepts some kind of signal..
[21:17:12] <anonimasu> step/dir or pwm with a amplifier, or a card with analog outputs and a servo amplifier
[21:17:47] <assargadon> anonimasu, but I'll beed HAL driver for this boards, isn't it?
[21:17:55] <anonimasu> step and direction servodrives require special servo drivers
[21:18:45] <anonimasu> err step and direction require special drives..
[21:18:48] <assargadon> *beed->need
[21:18:50] <anonimasu> that work like stepper drives
[21:22:06] <assargadon> I'm doubt ANY existent board will use this russian motors as effectors
[21:24:38] <assargadon> I see only 6 "internal HAL components" listed in manual
[21:24:56] <assargadon> is it really ALL internal components?
[21:25:05] <assargadon> there is no others?
[21:25:21] <anonimasu> I dont know
[21:27:59] <assargadon> Is there GUI utilite for visual adding/removing/interconnecting HAL components?
[21:28:17] <anonimasu> I dont think there are
[21:28:19] <assargadon> http://linuxcnc.org/images/stories/screen_thumb.png
[21:28:34] <anonimasu> that's the classicladder plc
[21:29:38] <assargadon> so the picture at left bottom corner is not the utility I talking about?
[21:29:42] <anonimasu> no
[21:29:46] <assargadon> ok :)
[21:29:53] <assargadon> so pity, isn't it?
[22:19:11] <assargadon> hey, guys, you scare me so much with this hardware difficalties
[22:19:32] <assargadon> but source tree even has template for new drivers
[22:20:01] <assargadon> and it's look clear
[22:21:50] <assargadon> HEY!
[22:21:57] <assargadon> You really fullish me :)
[22:22:06] <assargadon> I just find "Counter" component
[22:22:09] <assargadon> literally
[22:22:35] <assargadon> Instead of using a real encoder that outputs
[22:22:37] <assargadon> quadrature, some lathes have a sensor that generates a simple pulse
[22:22:38] <assargadon> stream as the spindle turns and an index pulse once per revolution.
[22:25:40] <assargadon> I should only change several strings of code...
[22:25:51] <assargadon> to make it bidirectional
[22:41:31] <dmess> has any one ever done a do-ability study on a relatively new machine tool???
[22:42:34] <dmess> say late 80's early 90's
[22:42:46] <jmkasunich> well that's annoying
[22:42:48] <dmess> servos
[22:43:08] <jmkasunich> power failure took my computer down after 100+ days of uptime
[22:44:18] <archivist> aw
[22:44:58] <jmkasunich> I have a ups, but the outage must have lasted longer than it did
[22:45:10] <jmkasunich> now I get to restart the compile farm, etc
[22:45:22] <dmess> we had a bomb blow thru wipe me out after 243 days.... took out the drive on the new fidia installation too ..... then again this morning... 20 G a piece... sill on installl...
[22:45:56] <dmess> still
[22:47:09] <dmess> blew 3 125 amp fuses today... and still the drive smoked up..... any ideas...Les??
[22:47:33] <jmkasunich> what kind of drive?
[22:47:40] <dmess> fidea
[22:47:53] <jmkasunich> what is that?
[22:47:56] <dmess> spindle drive..
[22:48:10] <dmess> italian
[22:48:15] <jmkasunich> lightning hit or something?
[22:48:55] <archivist> 125 amp fuses take some blowing
[22:49:17] <jmkasunich> a bit
[22:49:40] <jmkasunich> I assume this is in an industrial environment - three phase, etc
[22:49:42] <jmkasunich> 480V?
[22:49:45] <dmess> not today im still up.... i droped about when the 1st drive hit the dust.... the 2nd is a mystery for the factory that watched it to finger out
[22:49:55] <dmess> 600
[22:50:00] <jmkasunich> canada?
[22:50:07] <dmess> yes..
[22:50:23] <jmkasunich> is the spindle drive AC or DC?
[22:50:47] <assargadon> The sources of both drivers and components looks very, very friendly
[22:50:49] <dmess> i still think/suspect improper grounding
[22:50:51] <jmkasunich> blown fuses directly upstream of the drive, or on a feeder that runs multiple loads?
[22:51:34] <dmess> ac as it a high speed spindle
[22:51:52] <dmess> both..
[22:51:55] <archivist> well if fuses were nice and cold and the drive developed a short then the surge to blow the fuses could smoke the drive
[22:52:15] <jmkasunich> if the drive developed a short that alone could blow the drive
[22:52:31] <jmkasunich> there ain't fuses that are fast enough to protect IGBTs
[22:52:39] <jmkasunich> all the fuses can do is limit the damage
[22:52:39] <archivist> nope
[22:52:44] <assargadon> I should try some kind of compilation tommorow
[22:52:55] <dmess> drive blowin the drive.... SLOW down
[22:53:08] <jmkasunich> why?
[22:53:09] <archivist> Pirelli man here has trouble with some italian stuff
[22:53:45] <archivist> fuses protect cables
[22:53:53] <jmkasunich> right
[22:54:10] <dmess> ok what helps the drives..
[22:54:19] <dmess> micro fuses
[22:54:25] <jmkasunich> so far I know next to nothing about the situation
[22:54:42] <jmkasunich> I don't know how big the drive is, I don't know what if anything else is on the same feeder, etc
[22:54:43] <dmess> brb
[22:54:53] <archivist> good quality parts in the drives
[22:56:12] <jmkasunich> damned annoying:
[22:56:13] <jmkasunich> vmware is installed, but it has not been (correctly) configured
[22:56:13] <jmkasunich> for this system. To (re-)configure it, invoke the following command:
[22:56:13] <jmkasunich> /usr/bin/vmware-config.pl.
[22:56:26] <jmkasunich> bloody hell, it was working just fine for the last 100 days
[22:59:14] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I also get a message that vmware-tools is not installed
[22:59:18] <alex_joni> on the -RT kernels
[22:59:20] <alex_joni> even if it is
[22:59:33] <jmkasunich> this is just running vanilla dapper
[22:59:57] <alex_joni> yeah, but the vmware-tools are installed in the guest
[22:59:59] <alex_joni> not on the host
[23:00:09] <jmkasunich> oh, I haven't gotten that far
[23:00:26] <jmkasunich> I usually ignore it anyway, on the farm I don't need the services that vmware-tools provides
[23:00:28] <alex_joni> they allow for easy moving the mouse in and out of the guest
[23:00:41] <jmkasunich> I usually start them, hide them, and forget them until the next reboot
[23:00:50] <alex_joni> right
[23:01:22] <jmkasunich> ok, this is quite annoying
[23:01:48] <jmkasunich> it wants to build modules
[23:01:59] <jmkasunich> I bet I know what is going on
[23:02:14] <jmkasunich> some time ago ubuntu probably updated to a newer kernel, but I didn't reboot
[23:04:22] <jmkasunich> and I don't have the matching kernel headers package
[23:05:04] <alex_joni> the older ones should still be available
[23:05:30] <alex_joni> so maybe just rebooting and chosing that one is easiest/fastest
[23:05:37] <jmkasunich> I'm running 2.6.15-51-686, I assume I want the headers for that
[23:05:57] <jmkasunich> I just installed the header package, but I probably still have to do the reboot to fix all the symlinks
[23:06:12] <jmkasunich> well, there's probably a way to do it without the reboot, but the boot is simpler
[23:06:24] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders what a boot does to symlinks
[23:07:06] <jmkasunich> I would hope that things like this would get pointed at the running kernel:
[23:07:06] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich@mahan:/usr/src$ ls -l
[23:07:07] <jmkasunich> total 24
[23:07:07] <jmkasunich> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root src 27 2007-09-12 18:34 linux -> linux-headers-2.6.15-29-686
[23:07:10] <assargadon> oh, and if all this true about "comp"...
[23:07:31] <assargadon> all this will be ever easier than I can dream :)
[23:07:43] <assargadon> *even
[23:08:20] <assargadon> is it true that new components may be added without recompiling the EMC2 ?
[23:08:25] <jmkasunich> yes
[23:08:27] <alex_joni> assargadon: yes
[23:08:34] <assargadon> wow
[23:08:34] <alex_joni> sudo comp --install
[23:08:57] <assargadon> Then whydo you scared me so much?
[23:09:15] <alex_joni> assargadon: I still don't think you can get away with writing 1,2..10 comps and HAL only
[23:09:27] <archivist> because we see problems in the future
[23:09:28] <alex_joni> but that probably depends on what you want your machine to do
[23:09:50] <assargadon> encoder-based problems?
[23:09:57] <alex_joni> if you only want the motors to move uncoordinated.. then you might be ok with comp's only
[23:11:20] <assargadon> alex_joni, I heared several times about motor coordination problems
[23:11:27] <jmkasunich> bah - /usr/src still points to 2.6.15-29
[23:11:34] <assargadon> and I partially understan them
[23:12:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: that was probably your doing
[23:12:18] <assargadon> but I doubt any kind of coordination is possible, as far as you have motors with uncontrolled speed
[23:12:30] <alex_joni> I don't think installing headers creates any /usr/src/linux -> symlinks
[23:12:42] <jmkasunich> wonder why they are there?
[23:12:43] <alex_joni> assargadon: right
[23:13:06] <assargadon> but this motors has no any speed control...
[23:13:31] <assargadon> ok
[23:13:46] <alex_joni> assargadon: I understand.. and that's why I think getting it directly under emc's control would be better
[23:13:48] <assargadon> I firstly try what is possible with several comps
[23:13:52] <alex_joni> but that means needed hardware
[23:14:12] <alex_joni> assargadon: if you don't have speed control.. then *maybe* it can work (very poorly)
[23:14:13] <assargadon> alex, do you speaking about something like
[23:14:37] <assargadon> software-emulated servo-based endstops
[23:15:06] <alex_joni> assargadon: no, I mean if you want speed control (and good control/performance of the machine) then you need special hardware
[23:15:27] <alex_joni> if you go with what you have, you might be ok only using HAL components
[23:15:49] <assargadon> something with varying output voltage, for example?
[23:16:31] <alex_joni> yes (PWM)
[23:18:29] <assargadon> but there are some kind of software PWM in EMC
[23:19:17] <assargadon> do you mean LPT rate is just too low to satisfy PWM requirements?
[23:20:19] <assargadon> by the way, I can make step-direction interface, isn't it?
[23:22:17] <archivist> can your hardware understand pwm
[23:24:57] <assargadon> as far as I understand the idea, PWM is different-width impulses
[23:25:14] <archivist> yes
[23:25:37] <assargadon> i.e. when you circuit is turned on 70% of all time
[23:25:59] <assargadon> it is expected you motor will run 30% slower
[23:26:17] <assargadon> than if current is uninterrupted
[23:26:20] <assargadon> is it true?
[23:26:43] <archivist> something like that
[23:26:51] <assargadon> so
[23:27:13] <assargadon> if EMC will turn on and turn off the motors via controller
[23:27:21] <archivist> its why someone said earlier not to use a relay
[23:28:03] <assargadon> we should obtain our result, don't we?
[23:28:10] <jmkasunich> PWM only gives you 70% if the turning on and off is fast enough to average out at the proper level
[23:28:23] <jmkasunich> if you turn it on for 7 seconds and off for 3 you won't like the results
[23:28:29] <assargadon> thats why I asked
[23:28:36] <jmkasunich> software PWM is very limited in speed
[23:28:39] <assargadon> do you mean LPT is too slow
[23:29:00] <jmkasunich> software is too slow
[23:29:05] <assargadon> to make needed rate of turn on/turn off commands
[23:29:29] <assargadon> heh...my machine is very limited in speed as well :)
[23:29:30] <archivist> it needs to be in the kilo hertz range
[23:29:39] <jmkasunich> with software PWM you can probably do 140uS on and 60uS off to get 70%
[23:30:02] <jmkasunich> but you won't be able to do 72% - the next step might be 80%, at 160uS on and 40uS off
[23:30:10] <assargadon> if so, why PWM component included into EMC?
[23:30:42] <jmkasunich> because sometimes slow PWM is good enough
[23:30:49] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: his "controller" uses some protocol to talk
[23:30:53] <jmkasunich> oh
[23:30:53] <assargadon> maybe it's my case
[23:30:56] <alex_joni> so I bet pwm won't work
[23:30:58] <assargadon> maybe dont;)
[23:31:14] <jmkasunich> if your controller uses some protocol, why are we talking about PWM?
[23:31:35] <assargadon> why not?
[23:31:49] <assargadon> protocols making thing little slower
[23:31:53] <assargadon> or MUCH slower
[23:32:13] <assargadon> but it don't make things impossible
[23:32:20] <assargadon> isn't it? :)
[23:32:39] <jmkasunich> I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about - PWM usually goes direct to the power stage of a motor drive - protocols to go some drive intelligence - you cannot switch from one to the other without digging deep into the drive
[23:33:41] <assargadon> jmkasunich, as far as I understand, you don't saw my machine short description?
[23:34:08] <jmkasunich> no - my computer was down, then I was rebooting to fix vmware, etc
[23:34:27] <assargadon> http://headache.h1.ru/EMC/
[23:35:02] <assargadon> my controller is not too intelligent
[23:35:14] <assargadon> it can only turn on and turn off drives
[23:35:26] <assargadon> or turn on reversed
[23:39:31] <jmkasunich> do you know how the motor is turned on and off? relays, mosfet h-bridge, etc?
[23:40:17] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:40:23] <assargadon> some kind of IC h-bridge, as far as I can inderstand
[23:40:31] <assargadon> alex_joni, good night
[23:40:36] <jmkasunich> good night alex
[23:40:48] <jmkasunich> you need to get information about that IC
[23:41:06] <assargadon> I have a russian-language documentation, and therms are different
[23:41:16] <assargadon> what information especially?
[23:41:35] <jmkasunich> how fast can it be switched, etc
[23:41:39] <tomp2> ic number is same, start with ic number of h bridge
[23:41:59] <assargadon> heh
[23:42:00] <jmkasunich> it might be a russian chip
[23:42:10] <assargadon> do you realise it's RUSSIAN ICs?
[23:42:12] <assargadon> :)
[23:42:26] <assargadon> it's russian chip for sure :)
[23:42:48] <tomp2> really foundered in russia, ok, and noo roman numbers, but has russian numbers, ok
[23:43:57] <assargadon> maybe there are roman numbers, but how it helps?
[23:44:00] <assargadon> I mean
[23:44:07] <jmkasunich> assargadon: do you think it would be possible to replace the single optoswitch "encoder" with a real one?
[23:44:16] <jmkasunich> either made from a mouse, or purchased
[23:44:42] <assargadon> jmkasunich, I HOPE it can be done
[23:44:43] <jmkasunich> assargadon: I'm trying to figure out if you could control the machine using software PWM and software encoder counting
[23:45:00] <assargadon> not with changing optoswitch
[23:45:09] <assargadon> but with adding one more ;)
[23:45:18] <assargadon> there are place for it on PCB
[23:45:33] <assargadon> and even LEDs on controller to monitor it's status
[23:45:36] <jmkasunich> if you can get two channels (and they are quadrature) then you can at least count to see where you are
[23:45:58] <jmkasunich> then you will need to find out if the driver chips can be used for PWM
[23:46:25] <jmkasunich> if they are designed to turn the motor on and off a few times per second, they might overheat and burn out if you try PWM at a few thousand times per second
[23:46:28] <assargadon> jmkasunich, don't it will be easier to test experimentally?
[23:46:44] <assargadon> heh
[23:47:20] <assargadon> LPT connection is just not fast enought to make several thousand switching per second, isn't it?
[23:47:41] <jmkasunich> the LPT can do a few thousand
[23:47:52] <assargadon> really? Greate :)
[23:48:03] <assargadon> ok, i'll try to find this information
[23:48:04] <jmkasunich> the limit is not in any way the LPT
[23:48:20] <jmkasunich> is it the software PWM and the motor driver ICs
[23:48:27] <jmkasunich> s/is it/it is/
[23:48:30] <assargadon> about blowing chips :)
[23:48:53] <assargadon> If I do not find it
[23:49:09] <assargadon> I can always increasing the rate slightly
[23:49:19] <assargadon> measuring the temperature of IC ;)
[23:49:22] <jmkasunich> its not that simple
[23:49:33] <jmkasunich> well, maybe in your case it is
[23:49:51] <assargadon> from the other point of view
[23:50:00] <jmkasunich> the machine normally runs 100% on or off, never in between?
[23:50:14] <assargadon> I can just made driver to represent my robot in stepdirection form
[23:50:17] <assargadon> why not :)
[23:50:37] <assargadon> emm...between?
[23:50:44] <jmkasunich> many motor drives (especially larger ones) don't like to be turned all the way on abruptly
[23:50:55] <jmkasunich> they draw very large currents as they try to accelerate very fast
[23:50:57] <assargadon> you mean moving around at low speed?
[23:51:44] <assargadon> they have some inertia...
[23:51:54] <jmkasunich> both electrical and mechanical inertia
[23:52:16] <assargadon> but it's looks like mechanical inertia
[23:52:31] <jmkasunich> ?
[23:52:32] <assargadon> but I can test it with my multimeter tommorow :)
[23:52:56] <jmkasunich> electrical inertia = motor winding inductance
[23:53:06] <assargadon> I don't think some kind of slow voltage raising procedure are used
[23:53:49] <jmkasunich> inductance determines how long it takes the motor current to ramp up from zero to whatever current the motor draws when you apply power to it
[23:54:18] <assargadon> yes, I understand ;)
[23:54:22] <jmkasunich> mechanical inertia determines how long it takes the motor speed to ramp up from zero to whatever speed the applied voltage makes it want to go
[23:54:38] <assargadon> yes, i understand :)
[23:55:26] <assargadon> as far as I understand, you trying to say that using servos in step-like kind
[23:55:34] <jmkasunich> if you suddenly apply rated voltage , the current will rise much faster than the speed, and will probably go higher than the rated current of the motor - then once the motor speeds up, the current will drop back to a safe level
[23:55:36] <assargadon> can be failed idea
[23:55:45] <assargadon> due to this two inertias
[23:56:18] <assargadon> is it correct?
[23:56:29] <jmkasunich> I am having trouble communicating
[23:56:34] <archivist> mechanical inertia will cause the back emf to be low and the current high
[23:56:35] <assargadon> and yes, I understand it, too :)
[23:56:47] <jmkasunich> archivist - right
[23:57:05] <assargadon> (about induction caused by current "jumps" in solenoids)
[23:57:12] <jmkasunich> however, I don't know if assargadon knows what back emf is, etc
[23:57:22] <archivist> true
[23:57:29] <assargadon> assargadon knows ;)
[23:57:29] <jmkasunich> dang, 8pm
[23:57:37] <archivist> 1 am
[23:57:39] <jmkasunich> I haven't made dinner yet
[23:57:46] <assargadon> Assargadon know school phisics very well :)
[23:57:59] <jmkasunich> do you understand motor control?
[23:58:18] <jmkasunich> (maybe the problem is just the language barrier - but it seems like you don't understand, so I'm oversimplifying)
[23:58:26] <assargadon> I do not understand question
[23:58:37] <assargadon> if you mean some special receipts
[23:58:48] <assargadon> used to start up 3-phased motors
[23:59:06] <assargadon> or back emf compensation systems
[23:59:10] <assargadon> than no, I don't
[23:59:53] <assargadon> i have "feeling", but not "understanding" of listed stuff