#emc | Logs for 2008-04-07

[00:30:27] <fenn> i suggest paste wax, such as used for furniture polish
[00:30:52] <fenn> an invisibly thin film will prevent rust and won't wipe off
[00:48:03] <dmess> mould saver
[01:29:09] <Jessica> Hey, is chris awake and in here tonight?
[01:33:33] <Jessica> I just got an opportunity to buy a cnc mystery. The owner died. The person selling it says they think it was used to drill holes in PCBs. I'm wondering if it is a complete PCB router. All I have to eval it so far is some crappy JPGs. I was hoping Chris or someone else might be able to give it a look and offer their thoughts.
[01:41:32] <toastydeath> pics
[01:41:35] <toastydeath> ?
[01:41:59] <Jessica> hi toasty. where do you want me to post em?
[01:42:16] <toastydeath> uh, anywhere
[01:42:35] <DanielFalck> http://imagebin.org/
[01:42:49] <Jessica> just a sec...
[01:44:04] <Jessica> http://imagebin.org/15931
[01:45:21] <Jessica> Also http://imagebin.org/15932
[01:45:38] <DanielFalck> looks like you get a stereo receiver too
[01:45:53] <Jessica> yeah, no doubt....
[01:46:21] <Jessica> i didn't take the pictures... a friend that knows i'm into this stuff heard about it and sent me the images.
[01:46:42] <DanielFalck> the ceramic heater is probably needed to keep some ancient circuit board going too : )
[01:47:06] <Jessica> *smiles*
[01:47:10] <DanielFalck> don't ask how I know about that trick : 0
[01:47:32] <Jessica> The guy had etch tanks, developers, and even an old electron microscope...
[01:48:03] <eric_U> I've been told not to bother with the electron microscopes
[01:48:12] <DanielFalck> offer what you would pay for the steel table that it's sitting on
[01:48:35] <Jessica> eric, why?
[01:48:51] <eric_U> they cost a lot to keep running
[01:49:14] <eric_U> that thing is pretty big
[01:49:30] <eric_U> looks like the x axis is some number of feet long
[01:49:32] <Jessica> the pic is not the microscope!
[01:49:47] <eric_U> I changed back to the subject of the cnc
[01:50:31] <eric_U> looks like they may have spilled some etchant on there
[01:50:31] <Jessica> ok
[01:51:12] <eric_U> so did they give you a price?
[01:51:42] <Jessica> i think i can get it for $200
[01:51:52] <eric_U> I'd do it for that
[01:52:23] <DanielFalck> sounds like a good price
[01:52:33] <Jessica> i'd sure like to know if it is a router as well.
[01:52:55] <eric_U> don't see the spindle
[01:53:08] <Jessica> yeah, neither do i.
[01:53:40] <eric_U> z was added on
[01:54:10] <Jessica> why do you think that?
[01:54:31] <eric_U> that aluminum plate doesn't match anything
[01:55:13] <eric_U> and if you look between the moen box and the ceramic heater box, you see that the cast iron surface is missing a mating surface
[01:55:26] <eric_U> something big was on there before
[01:56:09] <eric_U> I'm no expert on SEMs, but is it possible this is the base for one?
[01:56:38] <toastydeath> i don't even know what that machine is supposed ot be
[01:56:40] <toastydeath> *to
[01:56:53] <Jessica> i'm pretty sure this was built to work pcbs originally.
[01:58:46] <eric_U> still could be part of an optical apparatus
[01:58:58] <toastydeath> or a pair of sewing machines
[01:59:15] <eric_U> could be that, yeah
[01:59:28] <eric_U> kinda hard to get the pants leg off though
[01:59:38] <toastydeath> this is like a rorschach test but in real life
[01:59:40] <toastydeath> "what do you see"
[01:59:46] <Jessica> hehehe
[02:01:21] <eric_U> wonder if there is a vacuum pump in there
[02:01:34] <eric_U> the silver plate with lotsa holes says maybe
[02:01:50] <fenn> it has a 'optics' look about it
[02:02:11] <Jessica> eric, she is also selling a few vac pumps
[02:02:46] <eric_U> I need one of those magazine display racks
[02:03:02] <Jessica> for an etch tank?
[02:03:17] <eric_U> so my wife will kill me and put me out of my misery
[02:03:24] <fenn> is that a vacuum pump below the stereo receiver? (with the blue bell/cylinder on top)
[02:03:52] <eric_U> maybe a coolant tank?
[02:04:02] <Jessica> dunno
[02:04:14] <eric_U> could be fenn, maybe that's a pressure gage
[02:04:24] <toastydeath> maybe it's a small beer fridge
[02:04:27] <toastydeath> nobody knows
[02:04:30] <fenn> you can see the electron microscope in the corner behind the magazine rack
[02:04:48] <eric_U> toastydeath: too wimpy to speculate amongst people he will never meet
[02:05:06] <toastydeath> it's true
[02:05:17] <eric_U> fenn, sure looks like it
[02:05:59] <Jessica> i've got a pic of the microscope somewhere. lemme look
[02:06:15] <eric_U> he took the crossbar off an put some plywood spacers in there
[02:07:47] <Jessica> http://imagebin.org/15933
[02:08:03] <Jessica> thats the microscope
[02:09:04] <Jessica> cambridge instraments stereoscan 90 (i think)
[02:09:07] <eric_U> think of the possibilities
[02:09:33] <fenn> * fenn thinks
[02:09:43] <eric_U> * eric_U still thinking
[02:10:25] <Jessica> don't hurt yourselves, boys....
[02:10:28] <Jessica> *grins*
[02:10:43] <eric_U> it's hard when you're not used to it
[02:11:18] <Jessica> *smiles*
[02:11:40] <eric_U> there's teflon tape on the scope, he was serious
[02:12:07] <Jessica> why is that? maybe he was a plumber.
[02:12:17] <eric_U> not likely
[02:12:20] <fenn> and vacuum grease
[02:12:30] <toastydeath> it would be neat to have an EM
[02:12:52] <Jessica> yeah, it would.
[02:12:52] <eric_U> it would be neat if toasty had a working sem and was close enough that I could come and use it
[02:12:57] <toastydeath> tru
[02:13:15] <eric_U> actually, the stuff I want to em, it's too much trouble
[02:13:16] <Jessica> imagine the cool photos you could make...
[02:13:25] <fenn> eric_U: dont you work in a lab of some sort?
[02:13:30] <toastydeath> eric_u: what are you trying to look at?
[02:13:38] <eric_U> I have a zygo white light interferometer
[02:13:51] <eric_U> fatigue cracks
[02:14:03] <toastydeath> hot
[02:14:30] <eric_U> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBuuVd0JlIM -- rate it up
[02:15:11] <toastydeath> wow
[02:15:14] <toastydeath> what's the time scale on that
[02:15:19] <eric_U> hours
[02:16:13] <toastydeath> crazy
[02:16:34] <eric_U> at about 3 seconds, you see some black spots appear and then disappear
[02:16:40] <toastydeath> i am completely ignorant re: fatigue
[02:16:50] <eric_U> the ultrasonic grip slipped and got grease all over it
[02:16:59] <eric_U> they had to stop and clean it off
[02:17:37] <eric_U> we should have better movies soon
[02:17:49] <Jessica> toasty. i drink too much caffine. i never get fatigued.
[02:18:07] <toastydeath> ZING
[02:18:11] <eric_U> wish I knew how that worked
[02:18:43] <toastydeath> if i drink too much caffiene i miss decimal places at work and send the machine places it shouldn't go
[02:19:03] <Jessica> *smiles* I've done that!
[02:19:13] <toastydeath> excitement!
[02:19:27] <eric_U> if I drink too much coffee, I forget I was supposed to press go
[02:19:43] <toastydeath> hahahahahaha epic
[02:20:26] <eric_U> I forgot I have some vacuum grease
[02:21:15] <Jessica> hey guys, thanks for the input. i'll let you know if i pick it up.
[02:21:30] <eric_U> have fun
[02:21:48] <Jessica> *smiles* will do. you do the same. Ciao!
[02:27:04] <toastydeath> does anyone like drum and bass
[02:27:27] <toastydeath> for some reason i imagine everyone in here listening to country and i don't know why.
[02:27:38] <eric_U> very silly
[02:27:58] <eric_U> I'm sitting here listening to les Rita Mitsouko
[02:27:58] <toastydeath> it's just my reflex when i can't figure out what a group of people enjoy listening to
[02:28:03] <DanielFalck> no, I'm listening to Alvin Youngblood Hart
[02:28:46] <DanielFalck> and before that John Scofield
[02:29:02] <toastydeath> so no drum and bass eh
[02:29:18] <DanielFalck> as in?
[02:29:31] <toastydeath> the genre?
[02:29:36] <DanielFalck> yes
[02:29:51] <toastydeath> any artist ever, really
[02:30:10] <toastydeath> right now i am listening to chase & status - hurt you
[02:30:17] <toastydeath> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwcUcosEOKM
[02:31:32] <eric_U> good music to lose your hearing with
[02:31:56] <toastydeath> isn't that true of any music
[02:32:19] <eric_U> what?
[02:32:25] <toastydeath> eh?
[02:32:46] <eric_U> I like any music that's in tune with the buzzing in my right ear
[02:32:51] <toastydeath> hahaha
[02:32:52] <fenn> the music is vibrating my eyeballs
[02:33:11] <DanielFalck> or pushing them out of their sockets
[02:34:08] <toastydeath> there are better groups than chase and status for doing that
[02:35:06] <toastydeath> not that chase and status isn't awesome, just not the best to vibrate one's eyeballs.
[02:36:39] <toastydeath> noisia - block control
[02:36:42] <toastydeath> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bovUM-X664
[02:36:55] <toastydeath> that one will vibrate your eyeballs, as experimentally proven
[02:37:16] <DanielFalck> not if I don't click on it : )
[02:37:29] <toastydeath> it requires about 130 db to start shaking one's eyes
[02:37:43] <fenn> it depends on the frequency
[02:38:14] <toastydeath> anywhere from 15-70 hz is about 130 db
[02:38:19] <toastydeath> i don't know about above that
[02:38:44] <eric_U> I went to a Black eyed peas concert with my daughter
[02:38:55] <eric_U> too much sub-audible frequencies for me
[02:39:17] <eric_U> but I think they may have been shaking my eyeballs
[02:39:52] <toastydeath> hahah.
[02:40:21] <eric_U> a waste of technology, that couldn't have been easy to do
[02:40:31] <toastydeath> it kind of is?
[02:40:52] <toastydeath> it isn't difficult to build a subwoofer enclosure tuned to subbass
[02:41:09] <toastydeath> my enclosure is ~27 hz or so
[02:41:10] <eric_U> I suppose not
[02:41:20] <eric_U> this was very low
[02:41:35] <toastydeath> 27 is "very low"
[02:41:42] <eric_U> it's audible though
[02:41:48] <eric_U> I'm talking 10hz
[02:41:53] <eric_U> and loud
[02:41:56] <toastydeath> 18-20 is about the limit
[02:42:01] <fenn> i saw a 'rotary woofer' which was just a servo motor with fan blades on it
[02:42:20] <eric_U> 18 is typical limit of normal audio equipment
[02:42:48] <toastydeath> anything under 30 typically makes people very uncomfortable at loud volumes
[02:42:58] <toastydeath> 30-35
[02:43:00] <eric_U> that's what was happening to me
[02:43:20] <fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_woofer
[02:43:50] <toastydeath> i know a guy who built his own rotary woofer
[02:44:00] <toastydeath> waaaaay into the audio scene
[02:44:01] <eric_U> I could do it, think about what you could do with a hydraulic cylinder
[02:44:11] <eric_U> I have one that will go 200 hz
[02:44:25] <toastydeath> the dynamics are the hard part
[02:45:00] <toastydeath> most high end subs for SPL compeition will do 4" of total travel @ 70-80 hz
[02:45:08] <eric_U> the trick would be building a membrane that would withstand the displacement
[02:45:13] <toastydeath> *compitition
[02:45:45] <eric_U> that would be fun
[02:45:57] <toastydeath> they're doing 170-180 db inside those cars
[02:46:13] <fenn> engineering new ways to annoy your neighbors
[02:46:13] <toastydeath> the loudest i have sat in was 150 and i had to get out immediately
[02:46:38] <eric_U> thought about hooking a cylinder up to the girders of the floor above
[02:46:59] <fenn> you could just hook the cylinder up to a giant boxing glove
[02:47:22] <eric_U> just hook it up to the ceiling, let the mass of the cylinder float
[02:47:41] <eric_U> shake the crap out of the ME 51 class
[02:47:54] <toastydeath> lol
[02:48:33] <eric_U> it would be cool to do it in coordination with the instructor
[02:49:22] <eric_U> "please to not question the integrity of grading proces"
[02:50:40] <toastydeath> ?
[02:51:05] <eric_U> "I have been reading ratemyprofessors.com, and I am not pleased, please keep to your seats for one moment"
[02:51:34] <toastydeath> hhaha who is that.
[02:51:50] <eric_U> have you ever looked at that site?
[02:51:56] <toastydeath> not really, no
[02:52:03] <toastydeath> i know all my professors
[02:52:15] <eric_U> most students can't even put the professors in the right department
[02:53:11] <eric_U> my adviser wasn't on there, thank goodness
[02:54:09] <toastydeath> haha.
[03:15:02] <eric_U> ljljlj
[04:11:18] <eric_U> oh, the humanity
[04:16:11] <tomp> jepler: on your vncrec page, please change "vncviewer -passwd ~/.vncpasswd :1 &" to "ncviewer -passwd ~/.vnc/passwd :1 &"
[04:42:22] <tomp> jepler: re: the vncrec instructions...
[04:42:24] <tomp> jepler: my New 'X' desktop is cncbox.titsnoir.org:1 appears,
[04:42:24] <tomp> but xsetroot -solid black fails ( i think this is part of the bigger problem ).
[04:42:24] <tomp> I do get an xsession ':1' and it looks like ancient X on 1990's linux,
[04:42:24] <tomp> hatched background, big black X cursor outlined in white.
[04:42:24] <tomp> Then, when I press return on the awaiting 'scripts/emc' command,
[04:42:25] <tomp> it fails saying "Application initialization failed:
[04:42:27] <tomp> this isn't a Tk applicationunknown color name "Black""
[04:42:29] <tomp> I think i need a color xsession... how to do that?
[04:43:25] <toastydeath> sounds like you have x running with no wm?
[04:44:04] <tomp> sounds right, sounds like what i see
[04:44:12] <toastydeath> should a wm be running?
[04:44:44] <tomp> i think so, but never ran one from inside one ( this is all from inside gnome )
[04:45:14] <toastydeath> you need to launch a wm of some kind against :1
[04:45:20] <tomp> jepler mentions running icewm, i'll go get a liteweight wm
[04:45:21] <tomp> thx
[04:45:36] <toastydeath> but that shouldn't like, stop you from running apps
[04:45:43] <toastydeath> when i was doing xdmx
[04:45:55] <toastydeath> i could still launch crap, it was just hard to use without a wm
[04:47:14] <tomp> toastydeath: it bitched that there was no color named black, maybe just meant there was no real color depth
[04:47:22] <toastydeath> no, there's color
[04:47:31] <tomp> no ont the window i saw
[04:47:42] <toastydeath> launch an imageviewer to :1
[04:47:48] <toastydeath> it'll come up all purdy
[04:48:04] <tomp> ok, will try
[04:48:05] <toastydeath> but you can't set backgrounds or anything else in raw x
[04:48:09] <toastydeath> that requires a wm
[04:48:50] <tomp> then can i run a tk app? it was an tk error
[04:49:21] <tomp> or maybe tk requires a wm
[04:49:41] <toastydeath> i don't know, it should work
[04:49:53] <tomp> i'll try to run a wm against :1 like you said
[04:50:00] <toastydeath> did you set the display
[04:50:11] <toastydeath> DISPLAY=:1 or whatever in the term you're using to launch crap
[04:50:15] <tomp> yep
[04:50:20] <toastydeath> kewl
[04:50:59] <toastydeath> what i like to do is launch xterm against :1
[04:51:05] <toastydeath> and then launch all the crap i want in :1 from there
[04:51:13] <toastydeath> because it has all the right environment variables, or it should
[04:54:36] <tomp> got ice-wm & icewm-gnome-support now, will try that
[05:05:18] <tomp> i dont get it, now the vncviewer reports black is not defined, this is way before i get a chance to open a wm against :1
[05:05:21] <tomp> tomp@cncbox:~/emc2-trunk$ VNC server supports protocol version 3.3 (viewer 3.3)
[05:05:21] <tomp> VNC authentication succeeded
[05:05:21] <tomp> Desktop name "tomp's X desktop (cncbox.titsnoir.org:1)"
[05:05:21] <tomp> Connected to VNC server, using protocol version 3.3
[05:05:21] <tomp> VNC server default format:
[05:05:22] <tomp> 8 bits per pixel.
[05:05:24] <tomp> True colour: max red 7 green 7 blue 3, shift red 0 green 3 blue 6
[05:05:26] <tomp> Warning: Color name "grey" is not defined
[05:05:28] <tomp> Using default colormap and visual, TrueColor, depth 8.
[05:05:30] <tomp> Got 256 exact BGR233 colours out of 256
[05:05:32] <tomp> Using BGR233 pixel format:
[05:05:34] <tomp> 8 bits per pixel.
[05:05:36] <tomp> True colour: max red 7 green 7 blue 3, shift red 0 green 3 blue 6
[05:05:38] <tomp> Warning: Color name "black" is not defined
[05:06:12] <toastydeath> wow
[05:06:29] <toastydeath> whack man
[05:06:50] <tomp> i got a LANGUAGE and LANG setup now for mandarin, will remove that
[05:29:09] <tomp> now restart X
[05:47:28] <toastydeath> haas has a new GUI
[05:47:31] <toastydeath> looks awesome
[05:48:18] <toastydeath> real awesome
[05:49:48] <toastydeath> goddamn that's a sexy interface
[05:49:56] <toastydeath> except i downloaded the video and didn't save the link
[06:26:12] <tomp> jepler: can you run vncrec with EMC2 - pre-2.3 CVS HEAD ?
[06:26:19] <tomp> I cannot , the tk app dies with "Application initialization failed: this isn't a Tk applicationunknown color name "Black" "
[06:26:24] <tomp> [2]- Done vncviewer -passwd ~/.vnc/passwd :1 (wd: ~)
[06:27:11] <SWPadnos> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=858323
[06:27:15] <SWPadnos> night :)
[06:28:06] <SWPadnos> tomp ^^^
[06:28:35] <tomp> thx very much, am doing that now, have a good nite
[06:29:04] <SWPadnos> thanks. good luck
[06:30:14] <tomp> it will take another nite, it didnt work same err, gotta start the magic spell from the beginning i 'spose
[06:30:42] <tomp> might have flooded the hd by now with all this crap recordning of NOT emc
[06:37:43] <tomp> uh,m it sez to restart Xgl, whatever that is and however its restarted
[06:38:22] <tomp> no manual entry for Xgl, typical
[06:39:21] <tomp> i dont think i'm using/ emc2 uses Xgl
[06:43:48] <tomp> with the new ln's, still black is nfg
[06:43:49] <tomp> xsetroot -solid black
[06:44:03] <tomp> --> xsetroot: unknown color "black"
[06:44:20] <tomp> and restarting X
[06:45:55] <tomp> yep, its tk wont run, tkgate & tkpaint both give same error
[06:47:10] <tomp> so it goes down the chain, tk wont run, so tkinter wont run so axis wont run
[06:47:14] <tomp> bye
[13:50:51] <tomp> got the black fixed... sudo ln -s /etc/X11/rgb.txt /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb.txt
[13:51:47] <tomp> now the new xsession has no gl extensions
[13:53:18] <tomp> Starting EMC2...
[13:53:18] <tomp> X Error of failed request: BadWindow (invalid Window parameter)
[13:53:18] <tomp> Major opcode of failed request: 3 (X_GetWindowAttributes)
[13:53:18] <tomp> Resource id in failed request: 0xffffffff
[13:53:18] <tomp> Serial number of failed request: 24
[13:53:18] <tomp> Current serial number in output stream: 25
[13:53:20] <tomp> X Error of failed request: BadWindow (invalid Window parameter)
[13:53:22] <tomp> Major opcode of failed request: 3 (X_GetWindowAttributes)
[13:53:24] <tomp> Resource id in failed request: 0xffffffff
[13:53:26] <tomp> Serial number of failed request: 604
[13:53:28] <tomp> Current serial number in output stream: 605
[13:53:30] <tomp> Shutting down and cleaning up EMC2...
[13:53:32] <tomp> Cleanup done
[14:04:28] <skunkworks_> uh oh
[14:04:51] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ wonders if the concrete guys hit the cable..
[14:10:46] <SWPadnos> they did. you can stop wondering
[14:15:44] <skunkworks_> heh
[14:16:07] <skunkworks_> I should have hooked up a camera ;)
[14:16:20] <skunkworks_> would have know exactly when it went down..
[16:52:19] <awallin> martzis: hi, did you see my pid-tuning pics? are they similar to the ones you have with the granite drive?
[17:06:36] <skunkworks_> awallin: I have tuned a bit without the servo hooked to anything.. I think it will be quite different when you get a load on it.
[17:12:23] <SWPadnos> loads make good low-pass filters
[17:14:39] <awallin> OK, might get to tuning on the actual machine in 1-2 weeks. that will be interesting!
[17:15:26] <skunkworks_> it is squirly to say the least. :)
[17:17:27] <skunkworks_> squirrely?
[17:19:58] <awallin> the FF2 term seemed to do more harm than good without load. but I guess that will change once there is some mass to move around
[17:29:59] <Martzis> awallin: Hi, I can not remember how well I got PID working.
[17:30:41] <Martzis> I have two PID loops. One in GD driver and the other in EMC
[17:32:57] <Martzis> All my EMC PID and FF parameters are 0 except P term
[17:40:30] <awallin> ah, well if you are using stepgen in EMC then all the PID tuning is done in the drive
[18:00:41] <skunkworks_> Phase Tolerance (CH A to CH B) .......90 ° ± 72 °
[18:00:45] <skunkworks_> yikes
[18:00:46] <skunkworks_> :)
[18:01:08] <skunkworks_> I guess it works for what it does.
[18:01:21] <skunkworks_> http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/ECW1J.pdf
[18:03:32] <SWPadnos> they're pretty low end encoders actually
[18:03:37] <SWPadnos> and mechanical
[18:04:04] <SWPadnos> I prefer the Grayhill 6211 series - they're optical and have a push switch (but they're $20 or so each)
[18:04:35] <skunkworks_> I figured they where mechinaica
[18:04:38] <skunkworks_> mechanical
[18:05:07] <SWPadnos> yep. and the optical versions are around the same price as the grayhills
[18:06:19] <skunkworks_> 120rpm max.
[18:06:24] <skunkworks_> (mechanical)
[18:06:56] <SWPadnos> probably not a big problem as a user control knob
[18:07:30] <SWPadnos> that's meant for FO and SO, not even jogging ;)
[18:09:12] <skunkworks_> right - (that is just what made me think it was mechanical)
[18:10:18] <SWPadnos> ah
[18:10:38] <SWPadnos> I think the opticals have a fairly low max speed as well - the ones I use have detents
[18:10:42] <SWPadnos> those wear out
[18:18:48] <Beege> CNC Router questions... for metalcutting
[18:20:13] <Beege> I have a router, 18k spindle, and pretty good hardware
[18:20:21] <Beege> four axes
[18:20:54] <cradek> what kind of metal do you want to cut and using what kind/size of tools?
[18:21:16] <cradek> (I ask because 18k is wayyyy too fast to cut metal unless you are using very small tools)
[18:21:48] <Beege> Stainless /Aluminum / Carbide, 1/32, to 1/4"
[18:23:13] <SWPadnos> stainless and aluminum cutting speeds are around a 10:1 ratio I think
[18:23:14] <cradek> 1/4" at 18krpm is 1200 SFM... not sure if any tool can handle that. forgive me if you know this already
[18:23:16] <cradek> I should have let you ask your question first
[18:23:29] <Beege> no problemo
[18:23:50] <SWPadnos> 1200SFM in alu with the right coatings, cutter, and cooling, could work
[18:23:53] <Beege> I can adjust RPM to 100 if I need to
[18:23:54] <SWPadnos> no way in SS
[18:24:21] <cradek> oh ok, I didn't understand that you can also get slower spindle speeds
[18:24:25] <Beege> Spindle is made by ELTE, can program speeds
[18:24:35] <cradek> go ahead and ask your questions, I'll stop typing until then
[18:24:41] <Beege> There is a Yaskawa inverter on the machine
[18:25:00] <Beege> It also has a CNC control on it, but need to dump it
[18:25:25] <Beege> It was made by CMS, with a Softservo control
[18:25:55] <Beege> I think the motors are 208V AC servos with a sinewave encoder
[18:26:05] <Beege> Soooo....
[18:26:34] <Beege> What would an ideal type motor/drive system would be best here?
[18:26:48] <Beege> Esp. if I'm going to switch to EMC?
[18:26:55] <cradek> ideally you could keep your existing servos and their drives. you need to determine how to run the drives.
[18:27:03] <Beege> Yeahbut
[18:27:05] <skunkworks_> they are firewire..
[18:27:10] <cradek> the resolvers on the motors probably go to the drives
[18:27:11] <cradek> oh
[18:27:13] <Beege> the drives are Firewire
[18:27:16] <cradek> bonk
[18:27:24] <cradek> well that bites
[18:27:28] <Beege> yup
[18:27:39] <skunkworks_> Did you talk to jonh about his ac servo drives?
[18:27:50] <Beege> in an email
[18:27:55] <skunkworks_> what did he say?
[18:28:00] <Beege> but his drives are for trapezoidal
[18:28:08] <skunkworks_> aw - shucks
[18:28:19] <Beege> not SURE they'sd work for mine, but just only maybe
[18:28:55] <cradek> a while back he offered that anyone could send him a motor and he would figure it out. I guess they're all a little different.
[18:29:20] <Beege> I don't think I saw that offer
[18:30:15] <Beege> I've been on AMC looking at their drives, but I don't know what I'm looking at
[18:30:18] <skunkworks_> might have been on the list.
[18:30:27] <skunkworks_> I recall that offer also
[18:30:54] <cradek> I'm digging for it
[18:31:41] <Beege> What's the difference in modes? Torque/Position/Other?
[18:33:56] <Beege> Oh, and Copley looks local to me in Canton MA
[18:35:18] <skunkworks_> how many kw are the servos?
[18:35:52] <cradek> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/868/focus=918
[18:37:45] <Beege> sevos are 3@ .75kW, 1 @.53
[18:39:02] <Beege> Thats point 75, point 53 in case you can't see the decimal :)
[18:39:51] <SWPadnos> are the motors Yaskawas?
[18:40:40] <Beege> Not Yaskawas
[18:41:02] <SWPadnos> what brand are they again? (I know you said it way back when, but can't remember)
[18:41:14] <Beege> They say "Custom Motors, Inc." I think
[18:41:20] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[18:41:28] <cradek> that link above was for you Beege
[18:41:34] <Beege> Thanks for that link cradek
[18:41:56] <Beege> I might take him up on that offer
[18:42:17] <Beege> I tried to exhaust other options before making my first move
[18:49:19] <Beege> brb
[18:53:24] <Beege> Just had to doublecheck the specs I gave for the motors. The 4th axis motor is .4kW
[18:53:32] <Beege> .53 hp
[18:54:36] <Martzis> awallin: I am using USC card and linear encoder feedback
[18:56:09] <Beege> OK, I'm not sure about the feedback anymore
[18:56:39] <SWPadnos> they say a picture is worth a thousand words ...
[18:56:57] <Beege> Motor number does'nt quite match the print number
[19:59:26] <Beege> Contacted Custom Motors, Inc., got servo specs for the motor numbers I have... no change in prior data
[20:18:01] <Beege> Talked to this guy: http://www.custom-motorsinc.com/products/servo/ca.html , can get me amps that match the motors, same manufacturer
[20:18:22] <cradek> can you get amps that take +-10V analog in?
[20:18:34] <Beege> That's what he says
[20:19:01] <Beege> so I'd need something between?
[20:19:16] <cradek> yes
[20:19:41] <cradek> seems like mesa and ppmc are the current favorites for running analog servo amps with emc
[20:21:50] <cradek> both have manufacturers who work closely with the emc community
[20:22:10] <cradek> (there are other solutions as well)
[20:26:15] <Beege> Looking, again, not sure what I'm looking at. Do these also control the spindle?
[20:26:43] <cradek> control as in on/off, or speed?
[20:27:01] <cradek> you could drive a vfd (speed input) with either
[20:27:17] <cradek> you could drive contactors (on/off only) with just about anything
[20:27:25] <Beege> There's a Yaskawa unit
[20:27:26] <cradek> bbl
[20:28:07] <Beege> Thanks cradek
[20:30:31] <Beege> Hafta go, thanks everyone!
[21:03:58] <ds2> does anyone have a easy way of generating an _ISOLATED_ 0-10V control voltage with a TTL or serial control input?
[21:05:22] <cradek> depends on how much bandwidth you need. For slow stuff, pwm into an opto is workable
[21:05:43] <ds2> got a P/N for an opto?
[21:06:11] <ds2> I been banging my head on finding a simple way of converting my DC motor controller to something I can control via the controller
[21:06:36] <skunkworks_> pwm -> opto -> r/c filter.
[21:06:39] <cradek> what kind of controller is it?
[21:06:48] <ds2> let me get link
[21:07:20] <cradek> my similar hackery: http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc/lathe
[21:07:31] <ds2> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008040716061562&item=11-2449&catname=electric
[21:07:36] <cradek> I should have drawn a schematic :-/
[21:07:49] <ds2> it currently takes a pot but I strongly suspect it can take a 0-10V in place of the wiper of the POT
[21:07:58] <ds2> problem is it is not galvanically isolated
[21:08:08] <cradek> do you measure 10V across the pot? it could be anything
[21:08:59] <ds2> no, not yet... scope is not isolated... want to figure out how to generate an isolated voltage first
[21:09:02] <skunkworks_> cradek: is the opto glued to the top of the cap?
[21:09:03] <cradek> I did a similar thing on my sherline. I put it in series with the existing pot, which I leave turned all the way up
[21:09:07] <cradek> skunkworks_: yes
[21:09:13] <skunkworks_> Neat :)
[21:09:18] <cradek> ds2: use a voltmeter
[21:09:26] <cradek> or, use both your scope probes in difference mode
[21:10:03] <cradek> it will at least tell you which tree you need to bark up
[21:10:06] <ds2> is the 2 probe method safe enough to say... let me stick one problem in each prong of the AC socket and clip the ground to safety ground?
[21:10:29] <cradek> I'd just use a meter :-)
[21:10:37] <ds2> heheh okay
[21:10:48] <skunkworks_> the scope is grounded.. I would not hook the scope ground to anything when measuring differece mode..
[21:10:49] <cradek> measure it on DC, and also flip it to AC to make sure it shows about zero
[21:10:55] <skunkworks_> or what cradek said.
[21:10:57] <SWPadnos> a few devices you can look at:
[21:11:01] <SWPadnos> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=ADUM1410ARWZ-ND
[21:11:15] <SWPadnos> digital isolator, can be bidirectional though that one is 4 out 0 return lines
[21:11:35] <cradek> I don't see any reason to believe there is 10V across the pot
[21:12:44] <ds2> whoa lots of pins... was hoping to see a 6 pin device
[21:12:52] <SWPadnos> isolated power supply: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=DCP010512BP-ND
[21:13:11] <SWPadnos> that can be used with some normal optos (or that other chip) to communicate with an A/D attached to the high side
[21:13:29] <SWPadnos> there are also 15V versions
[21:13:39] <ds2> hmmm
[21:14:38] <SWPadnos> you can also do some interesting things with an ethernet transformer and an oscillator, but I don't know that it would be less expensive (and I'm pretty sure it isn't any easier)
[21:14:45] <ds2> SWPadnos: the ADI part is purely digital to digital right? or did I miss something in the datasheet?
[21:15:23] <SWPadnos> yes, it's high speed digital to digital
[21:15:41] <SWPadnos> I thought it also had a low current power supply on the high side, but that may be a different part (or a defective brain)
[21:16:17] <ds2> not what I want... the ideal device would be - SPI in to control an isolated digital pot with rates of up to 300V
[21:16:37] <SWPadnos> incidentally, there's no particular reason why you should assume that the control signal is a voltage. it could be a current
[21:17:05] <SWPadnos> you need a high-side power supply that can power a high-side DAC of some sort
[21:17:07] <ds2> well, it is a 5K pot... and all 3 wires are used, current mode would seem to be odd
[21:17:10] <SWPadnos> plus any communications
[21:17:32] <SWPadnos> there is a schematic for a PWM on the geckodrive group, Mariss made it for the G-Rex for just such an occasion
[21:18:34] <ds2> all those seems to be overly complex
[21:18:59] <ds2> an analog opto isolator would be perfect if I can find one with the right ratings
[21:19:54] <SWPadnos> again assuming it's a voltage-controlled drive
[21:20:11] <cradek> I don't recall the voltage across the pot on mine, but it was fine for the first cheapo 6-pin opto I found in my junkbox
[21:20:46] <SWPadnos> I think Gene was having trouble because his spindle drive isn't voltage-controlled - the pot went right into a transistor base or something
[21:21:20] <cradek> yeah I think I found the schematic for mine :-)
[21:21:25] <ds2> SWPadnos: fair enough... then if I can find an isolated digital pot with 300V ratings, it'll work regardless
[21:21:29] <ds2> :)
[21:21:37] <SWPadnos> could be ;)
[21:21:39] <cradek> yikes you measured 300V?
[21:21:46] <ds2> no
[21:22:01] <SWPadnos> 300V isolation or output range?
[21:22:01] <ds2> I assume any component on there will need to be rated mains + 2x safety margin
[21:22:11] <ds2> there is no isolation xform on there
[21:23:00] <ds2> right now it is working, alas with a hand turned pot, and in a nice case... I want do be ready to do a quick conversion
[21:23:18] <cradek> on those do you have to turn the control down and back up for it to come on?
[21:23:18] <SWPadnos> just get a little stepper motor and pretend you have a vari-speed bridgeport ;)
[21:23:35] <ds2> SWPadnos: I am not far from doing exactly that!
[21:23:42] <ds2> got a bunch of tiny steppers already
[21:23:52] <cradek> funny but it would work.
[21:23:59] <ds2> the other alternative is a R2R ladder and a handful of relays
[21:24:50] <SWPadnos> http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=PS8601-A-ND
[21:26:27] <ds2> that isn't as silly as it would seem
[21:26:43] <ds2> they apparently made pots with a motor on it for remote controlled audio applications!
[21:27:01] <SWPadnos> I think that'll still need buffer circuitry on the high side, which you may not be able to drive from the pot terminals
[21:27:20] <SWPadnos> sure, I've had those on the last 3 or 4 receivers I've had (going back 20 years)
[21:27:31] <ds2> hmmmm... I am liking the stepper on pot more and more!
[21:27:55] <SWPadnos> I don't know if you can get to this without being logged into Yahoo Groups: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UIv6R8jRLRzRTLdH0Z21jVc7oISOJCeWVDPr48BUBADVI29pPjs3cey90HaRcfJkxjc5AQ72l7Vrilxn6Ca_skKFYkZkvw/G100%20and%20G101/G100%20to%20VFD.zip
[21:27:58] <ds2> or since I plan to use EMC, couldn't I just make it a service with a DC motor + printed out encoder? ;)
[21:28:05] <ds2> nope
[21:28:14] <SWPadnos> bummer
[21:28:32] <SWPadnos> the description is "Gerber files for optoisolated G100 analog outputs" :)
[21:28:45] <ds2> don't want to make a board!
[21:29:06] <SWPadnos> boy, you sure are full of impossible design criteria today
[21:30:01] <ds2> hehe
[21:30:30] <ds2> its fine, I think I got the answer I want... this is not a trivial project
[21:31:24] <SWPadnos> yeah. the gecko schematic (aside from the analog-to-PWM conversion) has a couple of op-amps, plus about a dozen discrete components on the high side
[21:31:26] <SWPadnos> per channel
[21:31:45] <SWPadnos> hmmm - no, more than that
[21:31:54] <ds2> <--- not an analog person
[21:32:01] <SWPadnos> 13 discretes, 2 transostors, 2 op-amps, and the opto
[21:32:05] <SWPadnos> transistors
[21:32:08] <ds2> I can deal with it, I can understand it, but I just don't like it :P
[21:32:10] <SWPadnos> yeah, me either :)
[21:32:16] <SWPadnos> yeah, me too :)
[21:33:21] <SWPadnos> oh - only one transistor. one of them is inside the opto
[21:33:57] <SWPadnos> though most of that is just a big filter - there's a comment "2-pole 100Hz low-pass filter"
[21:34:57] <ds2> there is a point where if things get significantly more complex, I am better off with a precanned speed controller instead of mod'ing this one...
[21:35:15] <SWPadnos> yep
[21:36:35] <ds2> and it sounds like threshold is somewhere around getting an optical isolator or a stepper controlled pot to work
[22:37:53] <tomp> could an rc servo tied to a pot be an analog to analog isolator ( analog in turns motor which turns other pot )
[23:26:09] <dmess> properly tuned i dont see why not... neither knows of the other