#emc | Logs for 2008-03-18

[00:13:47] <toastydeath> fffff
[00:26:15] <Unit41> fffff
[00:26:25] <Unit41> 00000
[00:26:41] <Unit41> FFFFF
[00:27:54] <alex_joni> 0x
[00:28:57] <fenn> 262144
[00:29:48] <fenn> er, i mean, 1048576
[00:32:48] <jmkasunich> now why would somebody make a 17.4mm diameter thread?
[00:34:44] <fenn> because it's close enough to 18mm when you chop off the thread peaks
[00:35:29] <jmkasunich> its probably supposed to be 18, but I wish I could be sure of that
[00:35:38] <jmkasunich> 18mm x 1mm pitch
[00:35:48] <jmkasunich> broken part for a camera tripod
[00:35:53] <fenn> did you measure the pitch diameter? (three wire method)
[00:36:05] <jmkasunich> no
[00:36:25] <jmkasunich> don't have wires/too lazy/won't work well on plastic/etc - pick your excuse
[00:36:38] <fenn> regular threads have flat tops so they'll fit female threads with rounded bottoms
[00:36:56] <fenn> * fenn wonders how to rephrase that
[00:37:01] <jmkasunich> the plastic part screws into an aluminum tube, and the fit is sloppy, so duplicating the pitch diameter of the plastic part won't be helpfull
[00:37:05] <jmkasunich> I know what you are saying
[00:37:21] <jmkasunich> but the nominal measurement for threads takes into account the flat tops
[00:41:57] <jmkasunich> this will be like many repair jobs - get the pitch right, then cut till it fits
[00:50:55] <toastydeath> you can measure the pitch diameter then the actual diameter and find out exactly what thread engagement you have
[00:51:06] <toastydeath> which will tell you exactly how to cut the mating thread.
[00:51:19] <toastydeath> the equations are in machinery's handbook.
[00:51:50] <toastydeath> not that you have to do it that way obv, it's just faster than guess and check
[00:52:58] <jmkasunich> the part I need to engage to is the internal thread - I have no way to measure that pitch diameter
[00:53:12] <toastydeath> ownt
[00:53:29] <toastydeath> you should stil be able to measure the id and ballpark it
[00:53:59] <jmkasunich> my ballpark estimate is that its a 18mm dia x 1mm pitch ;-)
[00:55:02] <toastydeath> which doesn't tell you anything about the shaft you need to start with, but whatever.
[00:55:35] <jmkasunich> I'm gonna start at about 17.8 or 17.9mm
[00:56:43] <jmkasunich> the ID of the female thread is 17.1mm
[00:57:30] <toastydeath> so stay with me for a second here
[00:57:35] <toastydeath> if you know the ID
[00:57:52] <toastydeath> you can go look up the theoretical thread engagement of that ID for that pitch
[00:58:00] <toastydeath> and then look at the mating shaft information
[00:58:03] <toastydeath> and just... just...
[00:58:06] <toastydeath> cut the thread once and be done with it
[00:58:40] <toastydeath> jus' sayin.
[00:59:34] <jmkasunich> we must be talking past each other
[00:59:36] <LawrenceG> 11
[00:59:55] <jmkasunich> I fail to see how thread engagement (theoretical or otherwise) has anything to do with this
[00:59:55] <LawrenceG> opps....news channel please
[01:00:35] <toastydeath> it tells you exactly how to cut the mating part.
[01:01:20] <jmkasunich> not if I don't know the size of the thread I'm trying to fit into
[01:01:34] <toastydeath> if it's not a standard thread, then no, and my aplogies.
[01:02:19] <jmkasunich> 18mm is almost 3/4", and 1mm is finer than 24 tpi, so its not a common thread
[01:02:40] <jmkasunich> it may or may not actually be 18mm, might be something really stupid like 17.5mm
[01:03:33] <jmkasunich> if it is indeed 18mm x 1mm, then I agree, Machinery's can tell me what the pitch diameter needs to be on my mating thread
[01:04:43] <jmkasunich> well, MH says that standard bolt threads don't come in 18mm - the nearest bolt threads are 16x2mm and 20x2.5
[01:04:59] <jmkasunich> American National Standard Fine Metric come in 18mm x 1.5mm
[01:05:07] <jmkasunich> nothing around 18x1mm
[01:06:21] <cradek> how sure are you that it's metric?
[01:07:19] <jmkasunich> the pitch is metric - its finer than my 24 tpi gage (by a lot), coarser than the 26 tpi (by a little) and a perfect match to my M6x1 tap
[01:07:47] <jmkasunich> diameter, not sure at all, although an english diameter and a metric pitch would be pretty perverse
[01:08:49] <jmkasunich> made in Tiawan 20 years ago, so I wouldn't rule anything out
[01:10:14] <cradek> you could measure the lateral slop in your existing too-small PD, then measure that PD and add
[01:10:28] <jmkasunich> easier said than done
[01:10:30] <cradek> then cut the PD you want, file off the peaks until it fits
[01:10:43] <jmkasunich> the existing male part is plastic, sloppy, and broken
[01:10:49] <cradek> surely so, good thing I'm on the saying end :-)
[01:11:26] <cradek> ah I figured you had a complete part, but just badly made
[01:12:00] <jmkasunich> no - it served well for a long time, but I was at the park a couple weeks ago, it was cold, the plastic was brittle, and I dropped the tripod
[01:12:11] <jmkasunich> fortunately the camera was not attached
[01:12:49] <jmkasunich> this part screws into the center upright tube of the tripod and had a 1/4-20 boltish thing molded into it that the tripod head attached to
[01:13:16] <jmkasunich> the force on the steel part broke it out of the plastic molding, leaving about half the length in the tube
[01:13:27] <jmkasunich> I drilled a couple holes in that and did a spanner wrench thing to get it out
[01:14:04] <cradek> it's surely not M17x1? I see that exists
[01:14:20] <jmkasunich> no, minor diameter of the female thread is 17.1
[01:15:19] <jmkasunich> major diameter of the plastic is 17.4ish
[01:15:42] <jmkasunich> and although I can't measure it to 0.1mm precision, I wouldn't be surprised if the slop is the better part of a mm
[01:16:51] <cradek> I'm guessing PD of M18x1 should be about 17.29
[01:17:05] <cradek> I'd just cut that, take a little off the peaks, and see if it futs
[01:17:08] <cradek> or fits even
[01:17:35] <cradek> can you make it between centers? you could even test fit then.
[01:17:49] <jmkasunich> I can test fit while its in the chuck
[01:18:08] <cradek> well then cut away!
[01:18:19] <cradek> you could be done! :-)
[01:18:29] <jmkasunich> heh
[01:18:54] <jmkasunich> well, I said a while ago that I was gonna just cut the OD to 17.9 or so and then sneak up on a fit
[01:19:12] <cradek> do you have your 127 tooth change gear handy? haha
[01:19:32] <a-l-p-h-a> yo yo yo
[01:19:33] <jmkasunich> yep
[01:19:50] <jmkasunich> K[1/25.4]
[01:20:01] <cradek> K1.0
[01:20:18] <a-l-p-h-a> jmkasunich, any toying around with the mesa lately?
[01:20:29] <jmkasunich> you mean sully my American machine with a G21? Nevar!
[01:20:39] <jmkasunich> a-l-p-h-a: no
[01:20:55] <cradek> you mean cut a metric part in the most natural way? Nevar!
[01:20:59] <jmkasunich> actually I guess G21 makes sense for this
[01:21:16] <cradek> I worked very hard on letting you do that :-)
[01:21:49] <jmkasunich> I guess I should try it then
[01:22:01] <cradek> the hard part is figuring out all the darn metric feeds and stuff
[01:22:09] <a-l-p-h-a> guinea pig is kinda gross... the show.
[01:22:19] <jmkasunich> that reminds me, I need to update to 2.2.4
[01:22:23] <cradek> G21.1 - metric lengths and ipm feeds!
[01:22:37] <cradek> I shouldn't say that in public
[01:22:38] <jmkasunich> otherwise the G21 won't last when I switch from Auto/MDI to manual
[01:22:55] <cradek> yeah let me know how that works...
[01:23:10] <cradek> I hope you will have fewer problems with TLO too
[01:24:25] <jmkasunich> I should air-cut another fusee
[01:24:33] <jmkasunich> see if it sounds different with the bobble gone
[01:25:29] <cradek> at fest this year our first (probably only) beer together will be to celebrate that tough bugfix
[01:28:15] <JymmmEMC> cradek: *ONLY* beer ???
[01:29:24] <LawrenceG> hi cradek ... whats the closest airport to fly into for fest??? Chicago?
[01:29:44] <cradek> don't know about closest. closest cheap one is probably chicago
[01:30:50] <cradek> hm, 3 hrs from chicago though
[01:31:05] <SWPadnos> Peoria, Il
[01:31:06] <jmkasunich> peoria is the closest "meduim" city
[01:31:11] <jmkasunich> medium even
[01:31:12] <JymmmEMC> what city/town?
[01:31:12] <cradek> yep
[01:31:58] <JymmmEMC> what city/town is fest in?
[01:32:02] <SWPadnos> Chicago is several hours drive away, but if you're flying you might as well drive from there since Peoria is close to an hour away
[01:32:05] <alex_joni> galesburg?
[01:32:07] <SWPadnos> Galesburg, IL
[01:32:08] <jmkasunich> then probably Iowa City or Cedar Rapids, but they're almost as far as Chicago, with a far smaller number of flights
[01:32:37] <cradek> JymmmEMC: galesburg, IL
[01:32:40] <JymmmEMC> KGBG Galesburg Municipal Airport
[01:32:40] <JymmmEMC> Galesburg, Illinois, USA
[01:32:43] <SWPadnos> yeah, Chicago is the closese hub, and with the time it takes to change planes then fly to a smaller city, then drive from that smaller city, you might as well just drive from Chicago
[01:32:46] <cradek> JymmmEMC: cnc-workshop.com
[01:32:49] <SWPadnos> hahahaha
[01:33:01] <SWPadnos> actually, the shop is within sight of the "airport" there
[01:33:06] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: if you have a piper cub, you can fly into galesburg
[01:33:11] <cradek> think you'll find a direct flight from LA to galesburg? haha
[01:33:30] <SWPadnos> direct flights from Peoria maybe
[01:33:42] <cradek> maybe, if you know someone
[01:34:17] <JymmmEMC> http://www.rentplanes.com/results/index.asp?Loc=62682&c=1
[01:34:18] <SWPadnos> or you have a Piper cub ;)
[01:34:34] <SWPadnos> I bet someone from OshKosh could fly there
[01:35:20] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I wonder when Roland will actually put content on the sire
[01:35:22] <SWPadnos> site
[01:36:23] <cradek> that's all the necessary content for repeat offenders, err, visitors
[01:36:37] <SWPadnos> heh - but no web payment form
[01:36:56] <cradek> oh right, we have to pay
[01:37:03] <SWPadnos> yeah -that is the bummer
[01:37:15] <SWPadnos> I think we should be treated as an attrraction
[01:37:28] <jmkasunich> fatal attraction?
[01:37:35] <SWPadnos> hmmm - not so far
[01:40:10] <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC counts SWPadnos' fingers... 7, 8, 9, hmmm 9.5
[01:41:05] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: "I told you the plasma cutter is NOT a Star Trek ionic shower"
[01:41:21] <SWPadnos> I thought it was the transporter
[01:41:42] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Well, it transported half your finger to the floor didn't it
[01:42:03] <SWPadnos> see!
[01:42:08] <alex_joni> it cuts while it cauterizes
[01:46:52] <JymmmEMC> $377 round trip SJC to PIA
[01:47:01] <cradek> nice
[01:47:13] <jmkasunich> thru where?
[01:47:20] <JymmmEMC> 1 stop
[01:47:26] <cradek> chicago I assume?
[01:47:44] <JymmmEMC> reloading...
[01:48:05] <JymmmEMC> DWF
[01:48:13] <JymmmEMC> no, wiat... wrong flight
[01:48:56] <JymmmEMC> Actually, depends on which flight times.... either DFW or ORD
[01:49:07] <JymmmEMC> http://www.cheaptickets.com/App/ViewFlightSearchResults?gcid=C16036x268&WT.mc_ev=click&WT.mc_id=ec2127&retrieveParams=true&z=f50d&r=3j&z=f50f&r=3l&lastPage=interstitial
[01:50:32] <JymmmEMC> http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=sjc+to+peoria+il&spell=1
[02:31:56] <JymmmEMC> What do I know, but on one of Mariss' whitepapers he mentions using a cap when using a switching PS. My PS is 48vdc@4.5A I have 3900uF@400V caps that I was going to wire two in series w/ the PS to the drives. Does this sound about right?
[02:32:11] <SWPadnos> parallel
[02:32:28] <SWPadnos> series reduces capacitance
[02:32:53] <JymmmEMC> damn, I did it again <rolls eyes>
[02:32:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:33:18] <JymmmEMC> so does 7200uF sound about right?
[02:34:18] <SWPadnos> 7800? :)
[02:34:31] <JymmmEMC> <rolls eyes, again>
[02:34:42] <JymmmEMC> correction 7800uF
[02:34:44] <cradek> heh
[02:34:49] <SWPadnos> what's the motor current?
[02:34:54] <SWPadnos> (I know the PS is 4.5A)
[02:34:59] <JymmmEMC> 2.5A iirc
[02:35:03] <SWPadnos> each?
[02:35:05] <JymmmEMC> looking up now
[02:35:06] <SWPadnos> oh right
[02:35:12] <SWPadnos> 2.8A
[02:35:30] <SWPadnos> ~1.1 ohm, 3.1V
[02:35:35] <SWPadnos> IIRC
[02:35:47] <JymmmEMC> http://www.xylotex.com/StepperMotor.htm
[02:36:19] <SWPadnos> ok. IRC :)
[02:36:54] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: OMG you were .03V off... WE'RE GONNA CRASH !!!!!!! lol
[02:37:02] <SWPadnos> you'd have to look at the parker maual for guidance. I don't know if the topology they use hasthe same guarantees as the Geckos
[02:37:05] <JymmmEMC> s/volt/ohms/
[02:37:09] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:37:31] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Explain yourself Plutonian!
[02:37:37] <JymmmEMC> topology?
[02:37:45] <SWPadnos> Mariss says the geckos will never draw more than 2/3 the rated motor current
[02:37:51] <SWPadnos> I don't know what parker says
[02:38:26] <SWPadnos> (I don't know why he says that, but I'm pretty sure that's the number)
[02:39:10] <SWPadnos> if that's also true of the Parkers, then you could need as much as ~6A for all 3 motors
[02:39:17] <JymmmEMC> is that becasue of the BEMF and all three motors will (probability wise) not be deaccelerating at the exact same time?
[02:39:27] <SWPadnos> no, I think that was for each drive
[02:39:30] <SWPadnos> but I'm not sure
[02:39:54] <SWPadnos> maybe that is the deal though, that the recommended current is 2/3 the total for all motors - I don't remember the specifics
[02:40:25] <SWPadnos> Mariss' formula is 80000 * I / V I believe
[02:40:38] <SWPadnos> 480000/48 = 10000 uF
[02:40:44] <SWPadnos> so 7800 is pretty close
[02:41:50] <SWPadnos> there are also caps in the supply, and the total needed is different because his formulas are for bulk supplies, not regulated
[02:42:52] <JymmmEMC> http://www.compumotor.com/manuals/oem/OEM_manuals.htm#OEM750
[02:47:30] <JymmmEMC> I never knew you could tune a stepper motor before
[02:50:20] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Could the 2/3rd's amperage be related to peak vs RMS ?
[02:53:09] <SWPadnos> I don't think it was
[02:53:25] <SWPadnos> no matter though, because that's the gecko recommendation and these are Parker drives
[02:54:28] <SWPadnos> incidentally, the "new" gecko formula for optimim voltage says you should have a 60V supply (V=1000/sqrt(l) )
[02:54:35] <SWPadnos> optimum
[02:55:57] <SWPadnos> you will proabbly want an inrush limiter on the caps - they look like a dead short when you first power on the supply
[02:56:11] <JymmmEMC> which would be?
[02:56:16] <SWPadnos> what?
[02:56:33] <JymmmEMC> what would I use as an "inrush limiter" ?
[02:57:06] <SWPadnos> an inrush limiter - an NTC (negative temperature coefficient) resistor
[02:57:07] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: pg32 http://www.compumotor.com/manuals/OEM750/OEM750_Entire_Rev_B.pdf
[02:57:24] <SWPadnos> I read lots of it, they say nothing about power supply ripple or capacitors
[02:57:33] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: no way man, only PTC for me!!!
[02:58:12] <SWPadnos> then you'r escrewed
[02:58:28] <JymmmEMC> heh
[02:58:45] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Sounds like a thermister to me
[02:59:15] <SWPadnos> sort of, but one that's meant to take several amps current
[02:59:26] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: MOV ?
[02:59:32] <SWPadnos> inrush limiter!
[02:59:40] <SWPadnos> search digikey for "inrush"
[03:02:13] <JymmmEMC> 5A ?
[03:02:32] <SWPadnos> at least
[03:02:48] <SWPadnos> what's the initial resistance? (cold)
[03:02:59] <JymmmEMC> of the NTC res?
[03:03:03] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:03:09] <JymmmEMC> you're choice
[03:03:12] <SWPadnos> I assumed you were looking at some :)
[03:03:29] <SWPadnos> well, something like 10-20 ohms if it's a 5A one
[03:03:32] <JymmmEMC> they range from .04 ohms and up
[03:03:33] <SWPadnos> I think
[03:03:42] <SWPadnos> that's probably hte "hot" resistance
[03:03:44] <SWPadnos> the
[03:04:02] <JymmmEMC> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=570-1018-ND
[03:04:44] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[03:05:23] <SWPadnos> 0.18 ohm * 4.5A (max supply current) = 0.81V drop
[03:05:38] <SWPadnos> = 3.645W
[03:05:49] <SWPadnos> that's not so bad
[03:06:03] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: What if I just turn on the power switch REALLY s l o w l y instead ;)
[03:06:13] <SWPadnos> h m m m m m m m
[03:07:01] <JymmmEMC> Now, what if I toss on bleed resistors on the caps instead?
[03:07:12] <JymmmEMC> (it was something I was considering anyway)
[03:07:27] <SWPadnos> different problem
[03:07:39] <JymmmEMC> ah
[03:07:58] <SWPadnos> the inrush limiter goes directly on the output of the supply, in series to the rest of the circuit (including the caps)
[03:08:10] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Hey, on those tiny relays I got from you... do you have any that are DPDT?
[03:08:34] <SWPadnos> PS + -> inrush -> cap + (= positive supply for motors)
[03:08:43] <SWPadnos> no
[03:08:59] <SWPadnos> and they're contactors ;)
[03:09:41] <SkinnYPuppY> frequently called motor starters on ebay if searching
[03:09:52] <SWPadnos> not these :)
[03:10:01] <JymmmEMC> SkinnypuppY these are fancy ones
[03:10:06] <SWPadnos> they're general-purpose contactors - pilot duty
[03:10:10] <SkinnYPuppY> kewl
[03:10:26] <SWPadnos> not motor starters, there's no easy provision for overloads (and they're 2-pole)
[03:11:37] <SWPadnos> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=570-1003-ND
[03:11:54] <SWPadnos> less $$, 8A, 1/2 the resistance (0.09 @ temp)
[03:26:08] <SkinnYPuppY> Is the inrush current from the xfmr being powered up or back emf from the load ?
[03:26:53] <SWPadnos> it's not a transformer, it's a switching (?) supply feeding some bulk filter caps
[03:27:00] <SWPadnos> regulated anyway
[03:27:13] <SkinnYPuppY> Oooh
[03:27:14] <SWPadnos> I figured an apparent dead short at startup might not be ideal all the time
[03:27:34] <SkinnYPuppY> gotcha
[03:40:43] <jmkasunich> well, the tripod thread worked
[03:41:10] <jmkasunich> no idea what size it is, but the new piece is screwed in tight and bottomed out - ain't comin' out
[03:41:20] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:42:39] <jmkasunich> on that note - sleep is good
[03:42:41] <jmkasunich> night folks
[03:42:48] <SWPadnos> nigth
[03:42:52] <SWPadnos> ht
[08:18:42] <cnccoder> any okuma programmers hanging out
[10:42:48] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[10:50:41] <renesis> okay so guys
[10:51:02] <renesis> im doing pcb with .004 Y and .0002 X backlash
[10:51:19] <renesis> and its milling pcb like it tested with the indicator
[10:51:32] <renesis> taig X = almost toolroom shit
[10:51:42] <renesis> taig Y = typical sadness
[10:53:55] <archivist> hmm, a sort script to force the gcode to be unidirectional
[10:54:11] <archivist> to avoid backlash errors
[13:07:04] <skunkworks> upgraded to 2.2.4 finally ;). No problems.
[13:24:53] <alex_joni> coo
[13:36:54] <skunkworks> morning alex. How is the day?
[13:42:34] <alex_joni> skunkworks: the day is fine, the night was short though
[13:42:53] <skunkworks> we crashed at 8:00 last night.. We needed it.
[13:43:33] <alex_joni> it was a bit after 9 I think.. but using US timezones
[13:46:02] <skunkworks> we did get up a bit early - had to get trash togather and the wife needed to get some homework done.
[13:46:22] <cradek> renesis: can you rig up a spring? cutting forces for PCBs are nil. You can't fix the backlash in software, but there are simple hardware solutions that should work fine
[13:47:02] <cradek> renesis: for a while I was using two nuts (rigged up not to turn) with a spring between them... it's easy
[13:48:35] <skunkworks> that sounded odd - she is getting a BS degree online though one of the local colleges
[13:49:17] <skunkworks> morning cradec
[13:49:20] <skunkworks> cradek
[13:50:09] <archivist> hmm project!! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CNC-lathe-Bosch-CNC-Alpha-2-not-Colchester_W0QQitemZ120232705947QQihZ002QQcategoryZ112399QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[13:50:34] <cradek> heh, I have a BS degree too
[13:51:32] <skunkworks> :)
[13:51:43] <skunkworks> archivist: how close is that to you?
[13:51:52] <archivist> about 25 miles
[13:52:03] <skunkworks> THere you go - you need another project :)
[13:52:19] <archivist> I need space and a lorry for that!
[13:52:25] <skunkworks> that is close enought to go physically look at.
[13:52:45] <skunkworks> although - I would think anythink in the uk is close enough to look at ;)
[13:53:14] <archivist> price of fuel is making it harder
[13:53:22] <skunkworks> I suppose
[13:53:38] <archivist> £1.05 per litre
[13:54:15] <archivist> you lot are still on cheap fuel
[13:54:41] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[13:55:16] <skunkworks> Yes - but everyone still complains.
[13:55:45] <skunkworks> OMG $3.25 a gallon...
[14:06:05] <skunkworks> logger_emc: bookmark
[14:06:05] <skunkworks> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-03-18.txt
[14:11:02] <skunkworks> interesting.. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54756
[14:15:00] <alex_joni> skunkworks: yuck
[14:15:13] <alex_joni> wouldn't want to support features like that :)
[14:15:37] <cradek> I think it's a clever hack
[14:15:49] <cradek> with our paradigm of picking the line in the gui, we can't do a similar thing
[14:18:51] <skunkworks> I had wondered in the back of my mind.. but there are always ways around that..
[14:21:10] <skunkworks> Guest552: hello.
[14:21:13] <lerman> If I wanted to do it right, I would have the interpreter keep a history of the initial state and the state after executing each line. Then, picking a line would give you the state and you could get there without stepping through everything.
[14:21:22] <alex_joni> http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php
[14:22:02] <lerman> It's a little more complicated when you have loops and subroutines, though. The gui would need a way to move through the history, not just the source.
[14:23:50] <alex_joni> lerman: I bet it is
[14:24:40] <cradek> lerman: To get the Okuma behavior, I don't think you need that. You could run the program from the beginning and start executing when you hit line L the Nth time
[14:24:49] <lerman> Not that bad though. Keep a history file that includes the state and a pointer to the original line.
[14:24:54] <cradek> (for "start at L.N")
[14:25:20] <cradek> not that I think this is a great solution, mind you
[14:25:31] <lerman> Yes, but the Okuma behavior is a kludge that assumes the user knows which invocation of the line is the right one.
[14:25:39] <cradek> of course
[14:26:27] <lerman> In the case of a crash, you can look at the history file (if you have one) and see where it last executed.
[14:27:04] <lerman> Ideally, though, you should be able to go there and step backwards to find the proper restart position.
[15:09:50] <cradek> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKL6elkbFy0
[15:11:00] <alex_joni> lerman: and in the case of recursive o-word procedure calls
[15:11:11] <alex_joni> the user is probably lost counting more than 10 invocations
[15:12:26] <alex_joni> cradek: lol
[15:13:42] <skunkworks> That was great :)
[15:16:33] <skunkworks> gasp.. mach. but still cool
[15:16:34] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0kf1D49ces&feature=related
[15:17:49] <alex_joni> skunkworks: where?
[15:17:58] <alex_joni> n/m
[15:23:13] <cradek> yikes, gloves around a running lathe
[15:54:50] <skunkworks> :) http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=426894#post426894
[16:25:35] <klickrr> anyone use geckodrives here? I use G320 servo drives, and i've been having a few fault issues, which is a seperate issue, but how do I get EMC to detect the problem and stop the running program when a servo drive faults out? there is the err/res terminal, which increments 0.04 volts for every step it's out of sync, and if it loses sync gets to about 4volts, obviously i realize parallel port pins are not analog, but it might work as an i
[16:25:35] <klickrr> nput.
[16:27:00] <klickrr> even if it does work as an input, I can't seem to find the doc page to setup the HAL file to take that parallel port as some kind of incoming fault switch..
[16:27:22] <cradek> sounds like you could use an analog comparator to generate a digital signal you could feed into the parport.
[16:27:51] <cradek> that could cause an estop, or could reduce the feed rate by half, or whatever else you care to configure in your HAL
[16:28:43] <cradek> in an ideal world, you'd replace the geckos with real servo amps that take velocity or torque analog command, and send the encoder feedback directly to EMC
[16:28:44] <klickrr> yea, i need it to cause an estop
[16:29:02] <klickrr> hmm, you can send the encoder feedback straight to emc, i didn't know that
[16:29:09] <klickrr> it can read quadrature encoders?
[16:29:20] <cradek> yes in many different ways
[16:29:24] <klickrr> hmm
[16:29:53] <cradek> to read encoders quickly you need some specialized hardware. there are several options.
[16:30:06] <cradek> (of couse you need specialized hardware to generate the analog +-10V signal too)
[16:30:28] <cradek> but when you're done, you have a closed loop servo system like real cnc machines have
[16:30:31] <klickrr> oh, so you need some hardware, yea
[16:30:34] <cradek> are you working on a large machine?
[16:30:37] <skunkworks> the gecko drives don't have a fault out pin?
[16:30:37] <klickrr> no
[16:31:01] <klickrr> skunkworks: it has a ERR/RESET pin, which is an analog output of the error
[16:31:13] <skunkworks> ah
[16:31:15] <klickrr> but other errors can occur which would causea fault that would not show up with that
[16:31:19] <klickrr> like a limit error
[16:31:22] <klickrr> amp limit
[16:31:38] <klickrr> i mean, i could open it up and just connect something ot the damn LED that shows fault
[16:31:46] <skunkworks> heh
[16:32:13] <klickrr> well, that's what I really want, and it's more or less digital, on or off, and detects all their different tyupes of faults, i just don't know what voltage it is
[16:32:45] <klickrr> i might open one up and see how much is involved with adding a wire to it, i'm sure it's not to much, i'd rather not modify it... but oh well
[16:32:48] <skunkworks> if you want to spend a little money - you could look at jonE stuff. It is made to take the gecko encoders and give you actual position.
[16:33:13] <klickrr> jonE stuff? you have a link to what you're talking about
[16:33:28] <klickrr> i'm actually building a much bigger much more expensive machine which I have no problem with spending some money on
[16:34:27] <klickrr> this is my old machine, but I keep getting faults for whatever reason, and I was just hoping to easily detect it in EMC. Like my X axis kept stopping, and then of course once it started the Y axis move, it was in the wrong position, and it's very scary when it tries to cut through way to much aluminum
[16:34:45] <klickrr> so i was just hoping to shut it down, and hopefully fix the problem in the next machine with new servo drives
[16:35:16] <klickrr> gecko is supposed to come out with new servo drives in a few months, I had figured I might use though, but i'm open to something that integrates with EMC better
[16:36:07] <skunkworks> I think you need this http://jelinux.pico-systems.com/univstep.html
[16:36:30] <skunkworks> and this http://jelinux.pico-systems.com/gecko.html
[16:36:36] <skunkworks> But I would email him.
[16:36:39] <cradek> you will hear many opinions, but people who have software that can do better, or who are working with larger machinery, generally agree that step/dir servo drives are a poor solution
[16:36:56] <skunkworks> * skunkworks doesn't like step/dir
[16:37:09] <cradek> they are a good solution for an incremental improvement of a stepper machine run by stepper-only software
[16:37:47] <skunkworks> If your starting from scratch.. Mesa card with servo amps/encoders.
[16:37:54] <klickrr> why is step/dir bad? because ocne yer moving it's technically very un-efficient? since yer sending thousands of pulses?
[16:38:14] <cradek> klickrr: limited pulse rates, and no real feedback into the software (like you are discovering)
[16:38:31] <klickrr> right
[16:38:38] <cradek> with a closed loop servo system you would be able to graph and tune your exact following error throughout the move
[16:39:07] <skunkworks> and - of cource - emc can do this also.. :)
[16:39:09] <cradek> following error trips when handled in emc are proportional to the velocity - in other words if you are moving fast, more FE is allowed without a trip
[16:39:28] <klickrr> gecko does have their G-Rex 100, or whatever, it's a system to watch all the encoders like you are saying, kinda like what you are showing, although i doubt anyone's integrated it with emc, so maybe the other choice would be easier, probably cheaper too
[16:39:59] <cradek> the g-rex still does not involve the PC in the servo loop. it is not "the emc way"
[16:40:03] <klickrr> oh and they have sample configs
[16:40:47] <alex_joni> sample configs for what?
[16:41:35] <klickrr> i was just saying it was nice that the one drive he linked to above has sample configs for it
[16:41:44] <klickrr> i see the second link is really almost what i'm asking for
[16:42:02] <skunkworks> No - not integrated with emc - G-grex is a motion controller.. Anything that takes motion out of emc - is not a good match for it.
[16:42:03] <klickrr> it's really exactly what i'm asking for
[16:42:48] <skunkworks> I think you need both - one is a hardware step generator.. the other is the gecko encoder interface.
[16:44:01] <SWPadnos> the ERR/RES terminal on the geckos is not a proportional output
[16:44:21] <SWPadnos> it's a little weird to use because it's both an input and an output
[16:46:58] <alex_joni> there were some schematics how to hook it up to the PC
[16:47:11] <alex_joni> I think in the files section around the geckodrive list at yahho
[16:47:14] <alex_joni> yahoo even
[16:48:00] <SWPadnos> you're supposed to be able to just hook all the err/res terminals together, then run that back to the PC, but I think it doesn't quite work if you do
[16:48:21] <SWPadnos> also, the geckos drop encoder power when you hit that terminal, so you'll lose position
[16:52:02] <klickrr> so is pico-systems.com run from someone in this channel?
[16:52:23] <SWPadnos> he's not on now, but he's an early adopter/contributer to EMC
[16:52:35] <SWPadnos> contributor, that is
[16:52:51] <skunkworks> He is very friendly - give him an email.
[16:54:12] <renesis> cradek: interesting, neat (sprung nut)
[16:54:54] <klickrr> so what drive systems do you guys usually use? doesn't seem like gecko is high on anyone's list eheh
[16:55:07] <alex_joni> * alex_joni uses geckos
[16:55:12] <klickrr> oh ok
[16:55:12] <alex_joni> and I quite like them
[16:55:23] <klickrr> yea, i like mine
[16:55:31] <alex_joni> but as with any system, you gotta know what the intended target is
[16:55:42] <alex_joni> can't compare them ,steppers to AC servo motors
[16:55:49] <klickrr> i used their stepper drives years ago, then switched over to the servo drives, worked for years, just recently i've been having some fault issues, but i'm sure that's probably really a tuning issue I need to take care of
[16:56:00] <alex_joni> gotta run
[16:56:15] <SWPadnos> there isn't a lot of tunin gyou can do with the geckos - that's one reason they only get a lukewarm reception here :)
[16:56:46] <SWPadnos> EMC actually has the capability of closing the servo loop itself, so using step/dir servo drives isn't necessary
[16:56:59] <SWPadnos> it's only necessary if you have an open-loop controller that can't do the PID itself
[16:57:25] <SWPadnos> so geckos are a solution in search of a problem around here
[16:57:26] <klickrr> ok, so do you suggest using the pico-systems.com thing with gecko? or something completly different
[16:57:44] <SWPadnos> that's the system I bought - pico systems USC + their gecko servo interface
[16:57:55] <SWPadnos> if you have the geckos, it probably doesn't make sense to replace them
[16:58:02] <klickrr> yea, that's what i'm planning to get, looks good to me
[16:58:18] <klickrr> looks like a lot more wires to hookup eheh, but oh well, i guess if i want it to work right
[16:58:36] <SWPadnos> you'd still need a servo drive and an interface to it (like a velocity-mode drive and an analog / PWM hardware output)
[16:58:38] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:59:27] <klickrr> well the USC from pico-systems looks liek it hooks straight upto EMC right
[16:59:39] <SWPadnos> yes, there are sample configs included
[16:59:41] <klickrr> has all the configs right there
[17:00:03] <SWPadnos> the only problems people have are with the parallel port - it could take a little fiddling in the BIOS to make sure it's in the right mode
[17:00:44] <SWPadnos> when I bought mine, he sent the USC and GSI already wired together, so that made it a little easier :)
[17:00:51] <klickrr> well i use the parallel port right now directly to the gecko's, or does that not mean it always works
[17:00:59] <klickrr> ahh, yea, i may ask for that
[17:01:01] <klickrr> that would be nice
[17:01:27] <SWPadnos> parallel port for step generation and parallel port for EPP data transfers to the USC are different problems
[17:02:22] <klickrr> oh, it needs to be epp, ok
[17:02:46] <SWPadnos> I think so
[17:14:55] <skunkworks> Did I mention how cool emc is? I think it has been a few weeks.
[17:16:57] <archivist> * archivist warms emc a bit, hey emc it hot!
[17:17:19] <archivist> it/is
[17:19:38] <BigJohnT> so cool it's hot
[17:20:38] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT uses Geckos
[17:21:26] <BigJohnT> Gecko stands behind their product 110%
[17:22:30] <BigJohnT> some guy hacked up a couple of drives with side cutters and twiddled with the pots till it wouldn't run and Gecko still gave him is money back
[17:23:19] <BigJohnT> Then Marris checked out the drives to make sure they were ok and had a contest on CNC Zone and gave them away...
[18:00:49] <SkinnYPupp1> Save 10% on enco weborders for a week code WB389 if anyone wants
[18:03:46] <cradek> it's hard to choose between 10% off and free shipping
[18:05:12] <alex_joni> depends on the budget :)
[18:09:58] <fenn> lots of neat stuff in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCmWZY_00_I&feature=related
[18:10:08] <fenn> cnc metal spinning and forming
[18:10:32] <SkinnYPupp1> Spinning is pretty cool
[18:14:17] <skunkworks> I like when they make the serpintine style belt pull with the gear
[18:14:26] <skunkworks> pully
[18:21:30] <SkinnYPupp1> Seeing metal flow like that still impresses me. Looks like a trick
[18:40:21] <fenn> i always wondered how toroid coils were made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdvoUAta92w&feature=related
[18:43:02] <skunkworks> well... that's like magic
[18:43:04] <fenn> looks a lot better than the straight shuttle manual method
[18:44:25] <archivist> when the local transformer company shut we missed out on the toroid machine
[18:48:29] <skunkworks> I like - smoosh the fiber tape roll so it fits thru the center of the toroid
[18:48:34] <skunkworks> method
[18:50:08] <fenn> doesn't work so well with fat solid wire
[18:52:28] <skunkworks> wire is a different matter entirely..
[18:52:38] <fenn> here's an explanation of how it works (about 1/3 down) http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-130135.html
[18:56:39] <fenn> i dont really see why you would want a smaller diameter hoop
[19:06:19] <skunkworks> So - you wind it off onto the big loop - then on to the toriod?
[19:11:14] <fenn> yes, but since the toroid is not on the hoop center the distance from the toroid to the point the wire exits the hoop will change
[19:12:31] <fenn> so you need some mechanism in the hoop to reel the wire in and out a little bit each time it goes around
[19:13:26] <fenn> i think just a spring arm coming out of the inside of the loop should work, but i dont see anything like that on the videos
[19:30:20] <skunkworks> The tape winding head though - pulls the tape from the outside of the ring.. Seems to be 'realtime'. (you don't have to put it on the ring first - then onto the toroid)
[19:32:13] <fenn> you do have to put it on the ring first
[19:32:32] <fenn> notice the scrap he pulls out after cutting off the end
[19:33:21] <skunkworks> So.. He is putting the tape on for the next run?
[19:33:34] <skunkworks> You can see the tape being put onto something :)
[19:34:05] <fenn> oop i just watched it again, you're right
[19:35:06] <skunkworks> Heh - yes - you actaully see him feed the tape thru the rig right onto the toroid
[19:35:11] <fenn> but the tape gets cut because the distance traveled around the hoop is much larger than the distance around the toroid
[19:35:19] <skunkworks> Yes
[19:38:06] <skunkworks> So I was right - it is magic ;)
[19:38:22] <fenn> i think the wire gets loaded a different way
[19:38:38] <fenn> there are some other videos
[19:41:03] <archivist> iirc,mount toroid, put the correct length of wire/tape on the ring, wind, remove
[19:42:22] <skunkworks> ah ha. Here is one showing it being put on the ring - then off onto the toroid
[19:42:24] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EJ0nzvgN-E&feature=related
[19:55:36] <nohi> hi
[19:55:46] <fenn> no, hi
[19:55:54] <nohi> :P
[19:55:55] <skunkworks>
[19:56:47] <skunkworks> nohi: what is up?
[19:58:03] <skunkworks> How is poland these days?
[19:58:43] <nohi> spring soon, snow and rain :)
[19:58:52] <skunkworks> heh - same here
[19:59:00] <nohi> here?
[19:59:09] <skunkworks> Wisconsin usa
[19:59:21] <nohi> heh
[19:59:54] <alex_joni> there :P
[20:00:03] <OoBIGeye_> for the record same in southern sweden :)
[20:00:18] <OoBIGeye_> OoBIGeye_ is now known as OoBIGeye
[20:01:24] <skunkworks> :)
[20:19:01] <nohi> nn
[20:19:03] <nohi> :)
[21:31:19] <gene> Anybody here?
[21:31:28] <archivist> no
[21:31:42] <gene> oh nuts
[21:32:37] <gene> when i logged back in, there was a message about registering my nick, how do i do that?
[21:33:30] <archivist> there is an faq on the freenode website
[21:34:07] <archivist> or /msg nickserv help
[21:36:13] <gene> but when i do as the web pages says, i'm already registered is the response, so i guess i must be ok
[21:38:31] <gene> I finally got the box wrapped around the PMDX-106 and the VSR from the mill, so now I have to finish building the swarf shielding I guess
[21:38:54] <gene> and as near as I can tell, its all worrking.
[21:40:44] <gene> However its pouring it out of a boot here, so I think I quit for the day. One could say its beer-thirty :)
[21:51:44] <micges> hi all
[21:59:50] <awallin> anyone worked a lot with multi-threading ? (programming, not the machining kind of threading :)
[22:01:46] <micges> a lot not, what's the problem ?
[22:02:50] <awallin> micges: I was just wondering about multi-threading recursive functions. is that normally done? if so, how?
[22:05:48] <archivist> I imagine not normally but could be done with extreme care
[22:05:59] <micges> It's suicide I think
[22:06:24] <awallin> ha :)
[22:07:14] <awallin> well, there's other stuff I can practice multi-threading on first. Things like function calls inside a for-loop which are fairly independent of eachother (not much need for communication btw. threads)
[22:07:25] <archivist> I can think of a few applications, just the launcher would need to wait for all threads to finish before it returns/finishes
[22:17:34] <awallin> did jmk advertize this video he made? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACvRilmIKDQ pretty nice!
[22:19:34] <archivist> yup saw it the other day
[23:40:05] <ken> hello all
[23:57:29] <ken> anyone know why g83 doesen't work adn g84 does after i upgraded to emc2
[23:58:57] <Guest486> hi
[23:59:03] <ken> oops got that backwards...g84 doesn't
[23:59:52] <Guest486> does two sided milling work with EMC ?