#emc | Logs for 2008-01-30

[00:20:37] <maddash> serial LCDs are waaaaaaay more expensive than non-serial
[00:45:39] <Gamma-X> hey everyone
[00:54:41] <skunkworks> Gamma-X: how is it going?
[00:54:52] <Gamma-X> eh could be better. im sick lol
[00:55:18] <Gamma-X> not wanting to tune my machine! haha
[00:56:35] <skunkworks> heh
[00:58:38] <Gamma-X> tunin that machine sucks! hahaha
[01:02:15] <GNieport1> Help! My PID still sucks!
[01:02:38] <Gamma-X> join the club'
[01:03:03] <GNieport1> I thought I had it dialed in, but when I turned down the allowable following error, the lack of tune was revealed
[01:03:19] <cradek> GNieport1: screenshots
[01:03:29] <GNieport1> ah, brb
[01:04:05] <GNieport1> what type of move would you like to see, fast g1 or fast g0
[01:04:23] <cradek> something that shows the problem you want to fix
[01:07:09] <jmkasunich> GNieport1: if turning down the following error limits caused a trip, you need to turn UP the scope gain on the error channel
[01:07:24] <jmkasunich> during tuning, you should be watching pid.N.error
[01:07:43] <jmkasunich> your goal is for that number to always be small relative to the tolderances you intend to work to
[01:07:48] <jmkasunich> 0.001" or so for example
[01:07:49] <GNieport1> something to chew on while I get the shots: I believe I left out a key clue. The encoders feed through the servo amplifier, and it has an internal loop. I have the documents, but cannot tune it precisely due to a large noise signal on the 'scope output pin. I'm afraid the hardware loop and EMC are fighting each other. I am considering dis-assembly of the encoder harness to bypass the amp's "smart" stuff
[01:08:35] <jmkasunich> is this some step-dir servo amp? do you know what it is doing with the encoder signals?
[01:08:43] <GNieport1> buffer only
[01:08:47] <GNieport1> er
[01:09:19] <GNieport1> it feeds directly through, but the amp has internal servo loops, with no apparent override.
[01:09:48] <jmkasunich> "buffer only" and "the amp has internal loops" are incompatible statements
[01:10:15] <Gamma-X> damn i need a ciggarette... i quit today
[01:10:38] <GNieport1> hehe, the encoder raw signals feed directly from the input to an auxiliary output. The amplifier does pay attention to the signals and attempts to influence the motor.
[01:10:54] <jmkasunich> ok, then thats not buffer only
[01:11:03] <GNieport1> Sorry :)
[01:11:28] <jmkasunich> I understand that you were saying "the amp doesn't do anything TO the signals", but it could also be read "the amp doesn't do anything WITH the signals"
[01:11:49] <jmkasunich> you're gonna need to figure out the natire of the amp's internal loop(s)
[01:12:05] <jmkasunich> nature
[01:12:30] <Gamma-X> is there a possible way to had pid setup auto maticly? in the future..
[01:12:50] <Gamma-X> have*
[01:13:06] <jmkasunich> everything (almost) is possible
[01:13:09] <jmkasunich> nothing is easy
[01:13:13] <SWPadnos> use at_pid, and hope it works for your machine
[01:13:20] <SWPadnos> (but that's not a real answer ;) )
[01:13:47] <Gamma-X> whats at_pid?
[01:14:13] <Gamma-X> auto tuning nice
[01:14:16] <jmkasunich> one person's attempt at auto-tuning PID
[01:14:21] <Gamma-X> who made it?
[01:14:29] <jmkasunich> pete V
[01:14:53] <Gamma-X> hmmm
[01:14:57] <Gamma-X> do u trust it?
[01:15:04] <jmkasunich> I've never tried it
[01:15:19] <jmkasunich> when I need to tune PID (which isn't often), I just do it myself
[01:16:02] <GNieport1> http://imagebin.ca/view/6GNECtW.html
[01:16:37] <jmkasunich> purple is error, right? 50 microunits per div?
[01:16:44] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos ever use at_pid
[01:16:45] <jmkasunich> what are your units, mm or inches
[01:17:04] <GNieport1> That is a g0 move at 300IPM, with a g4 pause on either side. Purple is pid.0.error, inches
[01:17:32] <GNieport1> so that 50u scale is in user units?
[01:17:40] <GNieport1> interesting
[01:17:50] <jmkasunich> what the heck are you complaining about then? you are within 0.000150" of where you are supposed to be for most of the move
[01:18:43] <jmkasunich> what do you have your ferror limits set to?
[01:18:44] <GNieport1> I didn't know it was a real world number until just now. I get a following error often when the move begins or ends
[01:18:58] <GNieport1> 0.002
[01:19:01] <GNieport1> inch
[01:19:11] <GNieport1> max is 0.2
[01:19:29] <jmkasunich> see those big spikes in error at the beginning and middle of the move?
[01:19:45] <GNieport1> yes... :)
[01:19:54] <jmkasunich> they're bad ;-)
[01:20:01] <GNieport1> really?
[01:20:05] <GNieport1> :)
[01:20:14] <jmkasunich> do you have any FF2?
[01:20:43] <GNieport1> no, I tried adding it starting with 0.01 and got more f_error
[01:21:10] <GNieport1> I mean to say, EMC stopped due to folling wrror limits
[01:21:34] <jmkasunich> the move in the picture - did it reach steady state speed? it looks like it didn't - accel then decel, no cruise period
[01:21:55] <GNieport1> I suppose it did not reach steady state
[01:21:56] <jmkasunich> (nothing wrong with that, I just need all the facts to interpret the image)
[01:22:27] <jmkasunich> what do you have max_accel set at for this axis? (in the ini file)
[01:22:47] <GNieport1> G0 X 2.500 F300
[01:22:48] <GNieport1> G4 P2
[01:22:48] <GNieport1> G0 X -2.500 F300
[01:22:48] <GNieport1> G4 P2
[01:22:57] <GNieport1> 25
[01:23:01] <jmkasunich> G0 doesn't use F words
[01:23:11] <jmkasunich> only G1,2,3
[01:23:16] <GNieport1> hehe :-[
[01:23:19] <jmkasunich> G0 always goes as fast as it can (machine limits)(
[01:23:50] <jmkasunich> what are the velocity and accel limits for this axis in the ini file?
[01:24:06] <GNieport1> 5.3 IPS axis limit, 20 IPS^2 accel
[01:24:30] <jmkasunich> so zero to full speed in just over 1/4 second
[01:24:55] <GNieport1> it must be very near to full speed when it begins to decel
[01:25:00] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:25:38] <jmkasunich> I'd suggest setting the following error limts high again (0.1 or more, for MIN_FERROR and FERROR)
[01:25:58] <Gamma-X> GNieport1 just use at_pid
[01:26:00] <jmkasunich> then run this move or one like it several times, experimenting with FF2
[01:26:15] <jmkasunich> Gamma-X: please do NOT make that suggestion
[01:26:18] <GNieport1> Due you think it might be productive to remove the encoder from the amplifier
[01:26:32] <jmkasunich> GNieport1: I dunno
[01:26:47] <jmkasunich> do you have a URL or anything with amplifier info?
[01:26:53] <GNieport1> yes!
[01:27:11] <jmkasunich> please post it
[01:27:37] <Gamma-X> hahaha just an idea
[01:27:51] <Gamma-X> im sick im goin to bed ill talk to u all tomrow when i can hopefully get some time to tune my machine.
[01:27:53] <jmkasunich> if the amp is using the encoder to close a velocity loop, you probably want to leave it connected
[01:28:11] <SWPadnos> have a good night. see you Friday or so
[01:28:26] <Gamma-X> ur comin to ny?! ull see me?
[01:28:37] <SWPadnos> see your nick on IRC Friday or so
[01:28:40] <GNieport1> http://www.idcmotion.com/support/Manuals/b8001_15.pdf
[01:28:50] <Gamma-X> damn hahah it was worth a try!
[01:28:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:29:01] <Gamma-X> later SWPadnos and everyone else.
[01:29:10] <GNieport1> I was thinking of removing the encoder, and maxing out the internal P gain
[01:29:41] <GNieport1> Teh problem is that I cannot effectively tune the amp loop without the scope connection working.
[01:29:43] <jmkasunich> that front panel looks suspiciously like a step-direction drive
[01:29:53] <GNieport1> it is, also analog input
[01:30:19] <jmkasunich> when you say "without the scope connection working" are you refering to halscope or an external real oscilliscope?
[01:30:38] <GNieport1> let me guess, the analog value only generates a pulse stream- DOH
[01:30:48] <jmkasunich> dunno, I'm reading
[01:31:02] <jmkasunich> I read fast, but there are 41 pages, please be patient
[01:31:09] <GNieport1> the amplifier requires a real-worl scope to tune
[01:31:16] <GNieport1> lol, thanks
[01:31:42] <jmkasunich> do you have a matching IDC motor, or just some random motor?
[01:31:47] <jmkasunich> do you have their software disk?
[01:32:14] <GNieport1> matching motor, and I have the servo tuning software running right here
[01:32:19] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:32:36] <GNieport1> and scope, with a nasty 60Hz hum
[01:32:36] <jmkasunich> I hate smart drives
[01:32:47] <GNieport1> in this case, i do as well :)
[01:33:33] <GNieport1> They are pretty sweet for indexing automated machinery, though
[01:35:59] <jmkasunich> did you follow the "Quick Start" procedure _exactly_ before hooking the drive and motor up to EMC?
[01:36:37] <GNieport1> checking...
[01:37:18] <GNieport1> yes, exactly
[01:37:35] <jmkasunich> are you running in velocity mode (Mode input NOT jumpered to common)?
[01:37:44] <GNieport1> velocity
[01:38:11] <jmkasunich> it says you can set the velocity scale from the "Inputs and Limits" screen
[01:38:30] <jmkasunich> did you do that, so that +/-10V corresponds to roughly your desired max speed?
[01:38:34] <GNieport1> I have, I programmed the maximum safe ballscrew speed there
[01:39:20] <jmkasunich> what speed is that? (in ipm or ips)
[01:39:38] <GNieport1> 5.3 IPS, 1600 RPM
[01:40:02] <jmkasunich> thats the max safe speed?
[01:40:13] <jmkasunich> you don't believe in safety margin do you? ;-)
[01:40:21] <GNieport1> with a bit of safety amrgin
[01:40:42] <GNieport1> yes, i do, I have seen a lot of machinery explode over the years.
[01:41:26] <GNieport1> the max I calculated is something like 2200 RPM, but I made an assumption or two
[01:41:31] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:41:44] <GNieport1> and it's 38 years old
[01:42:05] <cradek> I'd try FF2 while watching these spikes
[01:42:18] <jmkasunich> ok, I just got to "Diagnostic Monitor Port" (page 22)
[01:42:31] <jmkasunich> is that the port you have your real scope hooked to?
[01:42:37] <GNieport1> yes.
[01:42:58] <jmkasunich> its supposed to be 2.5V, with +/- 2V swing from there
[01:43:10] <GNieport1> yep
[01:43:14] <jmkasunich> what are you seeing on the scope? millivolts of 60Hz, or volts?
[01:43:29] <jmkasunich> and is the DC level at about 2.5V, or somewhere else
[01:44:02] <GNieport1> I am seeing about a 200 mV 60Hz noise superimposed on the feedback signal, which is swamping the overshoot spike
[01:44:25] <jmkasunich> what parameter are you observing? (that port can be used to see lots of things)
[01:44:35] <GNieport1> I have a ground loop or something, but cannot isolate it :)
[01:44:57] <GNieport1> the tuning software has a routine that applies stimuli
[01:45:09] <GNieport1> Square wave for the p loop
[01:45:26] <GNieport1> Degree rotation for the position loop
[01:45:45] <GNieport1> Degree rotation for the integral loop
[01:45:53] <jmkasunich> stop a sec
[01:46:18] <jmkasunich> from the manual, talking about the diagnostic port: "Actual velocity, commanded velocity, velocity error, position error, commanded torque as
[01:46:18] <jmkasunich> well as other parameters can be displayed with ease.
[01:46:18] <jmkasunich> "
[01:46:36] <jmkasunich> it can display only one of those things at a time
[01:46:43] <jmkasunich> which one are you trying to observe?
[01:47:07] <GNieport1> "Tracking (positon) Error
[01:47:14] <jmkasunich> something is wrong here
[01:47:29] <jmkasunich> according to the manual, when using the analog input, you can only run velocity or torque mode
[01:47:37] <GNieport1> yeah, I bought the wrong amplifier
[01:47:46] <jmkasunich> so there is no way there can be "position error"
[01:47:54] <jmkasunich> what?
[01:48:07] <GNieport1> If I set all the gains to zero, the motor does not spin
[01:48:08] <jmkasunich> do you mean the manual I'm reading isn't for your amp?
[01:48:17] <GNieport1> it is the correct manual
[01:48:25] <jmkasunich> then why do you say you bought the wrong amp?
[01:48:31] <GNieport1> i bought an amp that does not play well with EMC
[01:48:44] <jmkasunich> from what I can see, it should work fine
[01:48:49] <jmkasunich> but it needs to be set up properly
[01:48:50] <eric_U> what kinda amp?
[01:49:35] <jmkasunich> IDC B8001
[01:49:47] <eric_U> I have one of those
[01:49:51] <eric_U> never used it yet
[01:50:02] <GNieport1> Really, i'm committed here. I have not been able to nullify the 60Hz hum, no matter what. The best other alternative to tune this is to guess at values and listen for oscillation
[01:50:02] <jmkasunich> GNieport1: you want the amp to be in velocity mode, with EMC doing the position loop
[01:50:26] <skunkworks> ground loop?
[01:50:28] <GNieport1> I agree, there is no option to make the amp "dumb"
[01:50:37] <jmkasunich> velocity mode is dumb enough
[01:50:45] <jmkasunich> you did say it was an IDC motor, right>?
[01:51:21] <jmkasunich> page 23 of the manual: On the IDCMotion disk set that came with this drive are motor data files (ex.
[01:51:21] <jmkasunich> B23_220.mtr) that supply the drive all the necessary motor data. This data includes motor
[01:51:21] <jmkasunich> winding information, pole count, and encoder resolution. These files also contain default
[01:51:21] <jmkasunich> tuning parameters. The tuning parameters have been optimized for use with IDC motors
[01:51:21] <jmkasunich> and actuators. They work very well with inertia ratios up to about 15 to 1. Most
[01:51:23] <jmkasunich> applications require NO ADDITIONAL TUNING.
[01:51:40] <jmkasunich> so - why do you think you need to tune the amp?
[01:52:39] <GNieport1> When I loaded the motor file, all values were zero
[01:52:57] <jmkasunich> what values?
[01:53:07] <eric_U> that would be a problem
[01:53:09] <jmkasunich> the gains for the drive's internal loops?
[01:53:19] <GNieport1> Kv, Kp, Ki, Kfv Kfa
[01:53:38] <eric_U> do you have one of their motors?
[01:53:47] <jmkasunich> the file you loaded is the right one for the motor you have, right?
[01:54:04] <GNieport1> Thanks for looking through that document, I must have messed up the quick start.
[01:54:10] <GNieport1> Yes.
[01:54:23] <GNieport1> Let me reload it for fun.
[01:54:28] <jmkasunich> can you decouple the motor from the screw? either remove a belt, or a coupling, or something?
[01:54:50] <GNieport1> yes, pull the oldham disk out
[01:55:49] <jmkasunich> I strongly suggest that you decouple, and using ONLY their tools, software, procedures, etc, get the amp working as a velocity amp with their default tuning, and a scaling such that a 1.5V battery applied to the input terminals results in 240 RPM
[01:56:17] <GNieport1> the default tuning is indeed blank
[01:56:20] <jmkasunich> when you can make the motor turn 240 RPM with a 1.5V battery, then its time to connect to EMC and start tuning the position loop
[01:56:30] <GNieport1> okay.
[01:56:42] <jmkasunich> where did you get the disk (and the drive) from? can you get a new copy?
[01:57:04] <jmkasunich> I think eric and I have both asked and you still haven't answered - is this one of their motors?
[01:57:10] <GNieport1> I downloaded it, I do not know if it is still online, I will check.
[01:57:30] <GNieport1> Yes, it is a matched motor
[01:57:47] <jmkasunich> did you buy it from them (warrantee - their motor, their drive, their problem if it doesn't work), or is it ebay, dumpster, etc?
[01:57:59] <eric_U> they charge $500 to match your motor to their drive
[01:58:06] <GNieport1> Ebay drive, secondhand motor
[01:58:26] <GNieport1> I have two drives from ebay, different sellers, both act this way
[01:58:32] <jmkasunich> hmm
[01:59:06] <jmkasunich> I'm not sure what to suggest at this point - what I can say is that you want to keep things as simple as possible, and that means keeping EMC out of the picture
[01:59:15] <GNieport1> I'm sure the root of the trouble is that the amp internal loop is not tuned.
[01:59:25] <jmkasunich> until it works right with a battery as the input source, don't try it with EMC
[01:59:40] <GNieport1> thanks for the thoughts :)
[01:59:47] <jmkasunich> GNieport1: I bet you are right, but neither of us is really qualified to tune their internal loops
[01:59:59] <jmkasunich> thats why they have matched motors with the tuning params preset
[01:59:59] <eric_U> when you load the motor file, do any of the settings look correct?
[02:00:26] <GNieport1> All of the settings load correctly, except that the loops gains are not set
[02:00:44] <eric_U> do you have a link to the manual?
[02:00:50] <jmkasunich> are these position loop gains, velocity loop gains, or torque loop gains?
[02:01:04] <GNieport1> http://www.idcmotion.com/support/Manuals/b8001_15.pdf
[02:01:12] <eric_U> thanks
[02:01:15] <jmkasunich> that is the basic drive motor
[02:01:18] <jmkasunich> drive manual
[02:01:25] <jmkasunich> there is another manual for their tuning software
[02:01:37] <jmkasunich> the drive manual doesn't list any params or anything else
[02:01:43] <eric_U> okey
[02:01:49] <jmkasunich> (I don't have the URL for the tuning software manual)
[02:02:03] <GNieport1> Velocity, Position, Integral, Velocity FF, Acceleration FF
[02:02:07] <GNieport1> one sec
[02:02:48] <GNieport1> it's not online, let me put it up on ftp, brb
[02:03:16] <jmkasunich> bastids: on their manual download page: "Servo Tuner - See ServoTuner Help file"
[02:04:39] <eric_U> he could autotune :)
[02:04:52] <jmkasunich> does their software have autotune?
[02:04:59] <eric_U> 4 varieties
[02:05:13] <eric_U> kvtune kptune kitune and autotune
[02:05:29] <jmkasunich> where did you see that? in the manual?
[02:05:36] <eric_U> yup
[02:05:43] <eric_U> pg 6
[02:06:22] <jmkasunich> ?
[02:06:36] <jmkasunich> oh, their page numbers, not pdf page numbers
[02:06:44] <eric_U> pg 9
[02:06:56] <jmkasunich> yeah, found it
[02:16:14] <GNieport> http://home.cinci.rr.com/bog/stuff/b32.pdf
[02:16:26] <GNieport> no manual for the software
[02:16:36] <GNieport> do you want a screen shot? :)
[02:17:33] <eric_U> we figured that out: manual is the help file
[02:20:47] <GNieport> I can get a photo of the loop structure, but I think we are beating a dead horse now. I Must fix the scope tuning procedure.
[02:21:10] <GNieport> Or find the defalut values somehow
[02:21:47] <eric_U> have you tried to run their auto-tune?
[02:22:27] <GNieport> The button is grayed out. I guess the user manual was optimistic about it working by ship date
[02:22:51] <eric_U> there may be something you have to set first
[02:22:59] <GNieport> I'll check
[02:23:10] <eric_U> are any of the radio buttons for torque/velocity/position set?
[02:23:20] <GNieport> http://home.cinci.rr.com/bog/stuff/servo_tuner.jpg
[02:23:30] <GNieport> Yes, I set every option for velocity.
[02:23:36] <eric_U> it's offline
[02:23:41] <eric_U> did you enable?
[02:24:09] <tomp2> mcmastercarr is nice, but a friend just turned me on to Misumi http://www.misumiusa.com/ ( i was looking for small linear guides, rails and bushes ) not bad pricing (except for flat plate stock ) and they publish prices
[02:24:17] <eric_U> after mechanically disconnecting, that is
[02:24:40] <eric_U> I like misumi, but I have never ordered from them
[02:24:54] <GNieport1> that was a different computer, I installed the software only to see if it included a help file in the archive.
[02:25:18] <eric_U> auto-tune gonna be grayed out until you enable the drive
[02:25:21] <GNieport1> misumi has awesome quality
[02:26:11] <GNieport1> eric_U it has always been grayed out
[02:26:26] <eric_U> even when you had it enabled?
[02:26:36] <GNieport1> yes.
[02:26:57] <eric_U> ok, I'll move on to the next bogus theory then
[02:27:53] <GNieport1> :)
[02:28:05] <tomp2> hwo about the theory that enabling didnt enable
[02:28:18] <eric_U> that's a crazy theory
[02:28:23] <tomp2> no
[02:28:23] <eric_U> not simply bogus
[02:28:50] <tomp2> what was tried didnt succeed. thought it was enabled but wasnt
[02:29:08] <GNieport1> I found some defaults
[02:29:21] <eric_U> all you have to do is ground enable, don't you trust GNieport1 to do that much correctly?
[02:29:30] <GNieport1> I loaded the "step and direction" profile, instead of the analog profile
[02:30:42] <eric_U> so GNieport1, since tomp2 says we shouldn't trust you, did the disabled label change to enabled when you enabled the drive?
[02:30:47] <GNieport1> the big question, do I try EMC one last time?
[02:30:57] <eric_U> I wouldn't
[02:31:02] <GNieport1> I thought it did at first, but it was just the wind
[02:31:35] <eric_U> if the companies software can't get it to move, don't mess with emc
[02:31:54] <GNieport1> the motor moves excellently with the software.
[02:32:03] <GNieport1> Tracks a square wave, even
[02:32:17] <GNieport1> too many loops are getting stacked.
[02:32:18] <eric_U> that's what I get for crashing my IRC client
[02:32:33] <eric_U> I don't think you have that problem
[02:33:17] <GNieport1> Yeah, my real problem is that my first servo install I thought I would get all fancy and go brushless. A dc motor would have been so much more simple.
[02:33:26] <eric_U> not really
[02:33:45] <eric_U> I watch a lot of people messing with geckos, and I don't envy them
[02:34:10] <GNieport1> hrm, grass appears greener
[02:34:13] <eric_U> any other brushed option is really crazy
[02:34:34] <eric_U> what does it do when you try to run under emc?
[02:34:47] <GNieport1> I didn't try it yet.
[02:35:02] <eric_U> did you try the 1.5v battery test?
[02:35:28] <eric_U> what are you using for an interface, Mesa?
[02:35:40] <GNieport1> The full disclosure is that this isn't the first brushless system I have tried to install. I bought resolver-based hardware first, and could not get it to work for months.
[02:35:51] <GNieport1> so I bought these
[02:36:02] <GNieport1> Mesa, no 1.5V
[02:36:07] <eric_U> what system w/resolvers?
[02:36:14] <GNieport1> Baldor
[02:36:21] <GNieport1> with PacSci motors
[02:36:32] <eric_U> that isn't going to work
[02:36:42] <GNieport1> apparently.
[02:36:53] <GNieport1> what is your theory
[02:37:04] <eric_U> I don't see the problem yet?
[02:37:19] <GNieport1> the resolver frequency was ALMOST the same...
[02:37:46] <eric_U> I think most of those drives were meant to be matched
[02:37:55] <eric_U> not sure about the baldors though
[02:38:04] <GNieport1> why wasn't a Baldor amp and PacSci motor going to wirk
[02:38:18] <eric_U> because they didn't agree on phasing
[02:38:25] <GNieport1> I think my cables were not good enough
[02:38:34] <eric_U> could be
[02:38:59] <eric_U> did you research the phasing issue?
[02:39:12] <GNieport1> the motor would track at full, half speed, but at 10 rpm or less, fault out
[02:39:39] <GNieport1> I had the motor datasheet to connect the resolver properly
[02:40:10] <GNieport1> 10 rpm = most metal cutting work on old Bport :)
[02:40:11] <eric_U> I always wondered how good the simulated encoders would work
[02:41:01] <eric_U> the cables are pretty critical
[02:42:01] <eric_U> now you've convinced me you should hook it up to emc
[02:42:10] <GNieport1> I had multishield, twisted pairs
[02:42:53] <GNieport1> but I could not find exactly waht the motor came with. The old harness was too short. I considered purchasing one from the mfr... $$$
[02:43:08] <GNieport1> er $$, but I'm a tightwad
[02:43:14] <eric_U> probably nothing better than that
[02:43:32] <eric_U> although they might have had better flexibility than the wire you used
[02:43:44] <GNieport1> If I knew then what I know now, I would have bought their cable in a hearbeat
[02:44:06] <GNieport1> that was two years ago :-P
[02:44:41] <GNieport1> (I'm setting the options for analog input)
[02:47:03] <GNieport1> http://imagebin.ca/view/wzAVmsSv.html
[02:47:07] <GNieport1> the result
[02:47:14] <GNieport1> not as good as hoped.
[02:47:50] <eric_U> what are we looking at?
[02:48:41] <GNieport1> a really loud oscillation when a tapped <jog>
[02:48:48] <GNieport1> I tapped
[02:49:10] <eric_U> ki might be a little high
[02:49:23] <GNieport1> lol
[02:49:27] <GNieport1> yeah
[02:49:28] <eric_U> kp too
[02:49:36] <jmkasunich> this is with their "tuned by guessing" velocity loop and EMC's position loop?
[02:50:02] <eric_U> unloaded motor, correct?
[02:50:12] <tomp2> could you try the 1.5v battery test? With no emc, no mechanical coupling, just a D battery (to Command+ and Command-) , the motor and an enabled amp.
[02:50:13] <GNieport1> no, this was with the amplifier loop defaults from the step/dir profile, and my unchanged EMC gains
[02:50:32] <GNieport1> tomp, yes, 15 mins to pull the coupler
[02:50:54] <tomp2> that 15 min may be faster than other things, maybe
[02:51:08] <GNieport1> jmkasunich: I found some defaults in a different folder
[02:51:18] <jmkasunich> good
[02:51:32] <GNieport1> who's in a huury? I've only got about 30 hours in this since Friday
[02:51:32] <jmkasunich> you really want to do that 1.5V test though
[02:52:35] <tomp2> at fest, we give away battery boxes
[02:53:24] <eric_U> another 2 years, and it will be purring like a kitten
[02:54:41] <GNieport1> next thing you all are going to ask me to go to the basement and get the tachometer
[02:55:03] <eric_U> I'm thinking you need to break out the trav-a-dial
[02:56:09] <GNieport1> 50 mph wind gusts, not sounding too happy outside
[02:56:22] <eric_U> where you at?
[02:56:56] <GNieport1> cincinnati, ohio
[02:57:21] <jmkasunich> home of the bungles
[02:57:32] <eric_U> I was there over xmas
[02:59:35] <GNieport1> okay motor is loose, will you all settle for a 1.5V command instead of me finding a battery and taping wires to it?
[02:59:48] <jmkasunich> sure
[03:00:07] <jmkasunich> in fact, I've been refraining from suggesting a way to check the velocity loop tuning using EMC
[03:00:18] <jmkasunich> not really EMC, just HAL
[03:00:57] <tomp2> i hope the command doesnt try closing any loop. you should ignore any velocity or position feedback for now.
[03:01:04] <jmkasunich> siggen square wave -> dac -> amp -> motor -> encoder -> amp -> encoder-counter -> ddt block -> halscope
[03:01:11] <tomp2> ok
[03:01:13] <GNieport1> if I unlinkp the dac, may I use setp to change to 1.5?
[03:01:27] <jmkasunich> yes, that should work
[03:01:38] <GNieport1> sweet
[03:01:39] <jmkasunich> I'd verify the voltage with a DMM at the DAC output terminals
[03:01:45] <jmkasunich> (always sanity check everything)
[03:01:49] <GNieport1> let me put the batteries inthe tach
[03:02:45] <GNieport1> I lied earlier, i already had the tach out to tune the 0-10V spindle drive ;-)
[03:12:22] <GNieport1> okay. 1.5V on dac = 445 RPM
[03:12:35] <GNieport1> er, 1.5 on dac
[03:12:45] <GNieport1> didn't measure volts yet
[03:13:43] <GNieport1> Real volt = 2.75
[03:14:54] <GNieport1> 1.5 dac * 1.875 output_scale = 2.75V out
[03:15:03] <GNieport1> it works thus far
[03:15:21] <GNieport1> nice job, EMC programming team! :)
[03:15:25] <tomp2> is the rpm reasonable?
[03:15:30] <GNieport1> 445 rpm
[03:15:40] <GNieport1> max rpm is 1600 at 10V
[03:15:48] <tomp2> ok
[03:15:50] <GNieport1> i say reasonable
[03:15:55] <tomp2> good work
[03:16:05] <GNieport1> thanks, all I did was unbolt the motor
[03:16:09] <GNieport1> :)
[03:17:07] <GNieport1> any idea how to make Channel A - Channel B actually work on my scope?
[03:18:09] <tomp2> subtract? got a tektrnx? its a button
[03:18:47] <cradek> usually you invert one channel and then use add/sum
[03:19:32] <GNieport1> In trying to deduct the 60Hz hum, the problem is that the scale is different between the two channels.
[03:19:43] <GNieport1> yeah, Tek
[03:20:09] <jmkasunich> that scaling seems wrong to me
[03:20:18] <tomp2> hum on the Vcmd signal? (and cradek is right, on tek too)
[03:20:27] <jmkasunich> you want full scale on the dac to be 1600 RPM, right?
[03:20:34] <GNieport1> yes.
[03:20:40] <GNieport1> jmkasunich, yes
[03:20:44] <jmkasunich> and 1600 RPM = 5.3 inches per second
[03:20:55] <GNieport1> hum is on the servo amp tuning ouput channel.
[03:21:14] <GNieport1> jmkasunich 5 turns per inch
[03:21:38] <jmkasunich> never mind, my mistake
[03:21:59] <GNieport1> you confirmed my numbers Sat nite :)
[03:22:04] <jmkasunich> I was thinking you were commanding 1.5 _volts_, which should have given you 240 RPM
[03:22:26] <jmkasunich> you commanded 1.5 ips, which gave you 2.75V and 445 RPM, which is correct
[03:23:07] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich was confused by this: "<GNieport1> okay. 1.5V on dac = 445 RPM"
[03:23:26] <tomp2> nxt line
[03:23:30] <GNieport1> I retracted on the next line
[03:23:38] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:23:49] <jmkasunich> like I said, my mistake ;-)
[03:24:05] <tomp2> repented ;)
[03:24:39] <GNieport1> hehe
[03:25:18] <GNieport1> okay, I tuned the Kv factor up until the motor oscillated, then subtract 10%
[03:25:31] <GNieport1> is that a good ballpark?
[03:25:50] <jmkasunich> they all interact
[03:25:54] <GNieport1> this scope is giving me nothing
[03:25:59] <GNieport1> dang
[03:26:02] <jmkasunich> too much hum?
[03:26:08] <GNieport1> absolutely
[03:26:22] <jmkasunich> is it the scope or the amp?
[03:26:34] <GNieport1> amp(s)
[03:26:42] <GNieport1> something in my wiring
[03:26:53] <jmkasunich> does it show hum on the dac output or the amp input? or only hum on the diagnostic terminal?
[03:27:01] <GNieport1> Diag term.
[03:27:16] <jmkasunich> you don't have anything wired to that do you?
[03:27:22] <GNieport1> Both amps do it. I have a ground loop somewhere
[03:27:31] <GNieport1> Just the scope input
[03:27:35] <tomp2> try a 'cheater' on the scope ac cord, but dont connect the gnd leg
[03:27:39] <jmkasunich> weird
[03:27:58] <GNieport1> it's a two-priong cord
[03:28:07] <tomp2> never mind
[03:28:13] <GNieport1> good try
[03:28:27] <GNieport1> "The wpnders of IRC troubleshooting"
[03:29:31] <jmkasunich> you have the scope ground clip connected to the amp ground, and the probe tip connected to the diag port, and you see hum?
[03:29:36] <Jymmmm> "Well, ground the sucker!" lol
[03:29:56] <GNieport1> Yes, on the 5V square wave
[03:30:06] <jmkasunich> connect the probe tip to the amp ground, right next to the scope ground clip - dp you still see humm?
[03:30:19] <GNieport1> nope.
[03:30:30] <fenn> maybe there's noise in the amp..
[03:30:31] <jmkasunich> then its not a ground loop, and its not the scope
[03:30:41] <jmkasunich> its real - the amp diagnostic output has hum on it
[03:30:43] <GNieport1> it's BS is what it is.
[03:30:56] <fenn> put headphones on it :)
[03:31:14] <GNieport1> nah, baby's sleeping
[03:31:34] <tomp2> not hum, it just doesnt know the words
[03:42:30] <eric_U> it's psychosomatic, you need a lobotomy, I'll get a saw
[03:42:50] <eric_U> supposedly a calvin and hobbes quote
[03:44:58] <tomp2> http://www.atmayogi.com/node/506 DIY lobotomy ( this guy went up the nose )
[03:46:37] <eric_U> I prefer chemical means if I ever need one
[03:50:32] <GNieport1> Okay, I changed a few oscope settings and believe I may have done a somewhat serviceable tuning job on the amplifier gains
[03:50:43] <twice2> cartoon? not nearly as good as jmkasunich undressing someone :)
[03:50:56] <GNieport1> Back to
[03:50:56] <GNieport1> EMC at PID 0,0,0
[03:51:11] <GNieport1> tomorrow, goodnight.
[03:51:39] <tomp2> nite best o luck
[03:52:05] <jmkasunich> goodnight GNieport
[03:52:20] <jmkasunich> twice2: I don't want to know what you are talking about
[03:52:28] <GNieport1> thanks again
[03:52:44] <eric_U> makes about 32 of us
[03:52:46] <twice2> sorry, it was,,, not productive
[03:56:14] <twice2> i mean my comment was not productive, the conversation was very much so
[03:56:58] <jmkasunich> understood ;-)
[07:43:49] <micges> hi all
[08:54:49] <alex_joni> hi micges
[13:08:51] <Jymmmm> Mornin Folks
[13:09:17] <archivist> its afternoon, get up on time!
[13:15:54] <Jymmmm> It could be 4PM and I'd still say the same thing =)
[13:19:47] <alex_joni> morning Jymmmm
[13:28:39] <Jymmmm> alex_joni: If you come across any electro-mechanical (relay) estop circuits, let me know, will ya?
[13:48:25] <alex_joni> Jymmmm: I have one I use usually
[13:48:37] <alex_joni> not sure where you can find it though.. let me look up some specs
[13:48:44] <Jymmmm> k
[13:49:34] <alex_joni> 3TK2802-ODB4,F.24V.DC/1
[13:49:42] <alex_joni> not sure that means anything to google
[13:50:39] <alex_joni> heh, found it
[13:50:44] <alex_joni> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sea.siemens.com%2Fcontrlbu%2Fupld%2Ffiles%2F3TK2801_02.pdf&ei=mICgR9WVMYWe-QLX392IDQ&usg=AFQjCNHEi0s_9TegLt2y18bV3ROpb6_-wA&sig2=9pYVjYB3EFWNidAt9PIYLg
[13:51:09] <alex_joni> or a shorter URL: www.sea.siemens.com/contrlbu/upld/files/3TK2801_02.pdf
[13:51:41] <Jymmmm> alex_joni: thats a safety relay, isn't it?
[13:52:39] <alex_joni> yes, suitable for estop
[13:52:55] <Jymmmm> k, thank you
[14:03:16] <alex_joni> Jymmmm: it's an older model than what we use nowadays.. but the newer ones are only marked by our mother company
[14:03:33] <alex_joni> so I'm not sure who manufactures them, or what the designation is
[15:33:46] <alex_joni> bbl
[16:06:15] <alex_joni> hmm.. a guy from germany reports he's using the LiveCD burned on a DVD
[16:06:23] <alex_joni> and he's getting much better performances
[16:06:30] <alex_joni> (purely as a live system)
[16:08:45] <alex_joni> bbl
[16:19:26] <micges> finally after work
[16:25:48] <BigJohnT> almost lunch here
[19:22:14] <micges> cradek: around ?
[21:38:14] <alex_joni> did you guys see the new macbook?
[21:42:11] <micges> anyone can send me sample dxf you working with ?
[21:42:20] <archivist> * archivist never looks at expensive shiny stuff
[21:42:35] <micges> for dxf post testing
[21:43:02] <micges> I only have artioscad and qcad and need more :)
[21:43:17] <archivist> I have not used dxf for about 10 years
[21:43:42] <micges> why ?
[21:44:12] <archivist> I use solidworks now
[21:44:37] <micges> output is good ?
[21:44:45] <micges> or need editing ?
[21:45:11] <alex_joni> archivist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0jIpSCndtw
[21:45:14] <archivist> not connecting directly to machine yet
[21:53:12] <archivist> alex_joni, er lacks full travel keys on the keyboard :)
[21:55:39] <alex_joni> archivist: I rather miss the page up/down keys
[21:55:51] <archivist> micges, just remembered I did a direct via dxf to a machine here about 4 years ago, was as good as the toy machine could do
[21:56:27] <archivist> alex_joni, yes I use those a lot
[21:57:17] <archivist> nearly parsed a gerber file to a bitmap already :)
[22:05:29] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:06:17] <micges> night
[22:23:11] <archivist_win> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sebko0n6uJ0
[22:33:03] <BigJohnT> wonder what fraisausa is cutting?
[22:35:41] <BigJohnT> Gamma you making any progress
[22:55:25] <dmess> hi all
[22:57:03] <micges> hi dmess
[23:21:03] <GNieport1> anyone know if there is a way to set FERROR through HAL?
[23:35:08] <jepler> there is not. it is set once from the inifile when emc starts.
[23:36:32] <owhite> SWPadnos: you around/awake?
[23:37:23] <ds2> how many pascals is in 10MPa?
[23:38:38] <owhite> could anyone suggest where I get the information to see the link between a physical pin on the m5i20 board and pins described in hal_m5i20?
[23:40:08] <gezar> ds2 you sure you mean 10MPa and not 10Pa? or 145psi?
[23:40:40] <gezar> oh crap, 1Pa, =145psi
[23:40:57] <gezar> cause 10MPa is a lot
[23:41:09] <ds2> yes, I mean 10MPa
[23:41:23] <ds2> hmmmm
[23:41:41] <tomp> owhite: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?M5i20_Halvcp_Test_Panel might be a start then theres the code too
[23:41:55] <ds2> let me re-read the conversion table... I was getting some odd numbers (was reading a post claiming 10MPa bolt is a very strong bolt)
[23:42:24] <owhite> tomp: thanks I looked at that - the code there does not get me to the point of knowing whats up with the physical pin names.
[23:42:33] <tomp> M=milli ?
[23:42:34] <gezar> then mega is 1000, so 10000Pa
[23:42:47] <ds2> is 1PSI == 6894.4Pascals?
[23:43:04] <gezar> yep
[23:43:06] <owhite> I'm rooting around /src/hal/drivers/m5i20
[23:43:16] <cradek_> 6894.7573
[23:43:24] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[23:43:37] <ds2> so 10MPa/6894.7573 == value in PSI, right?
[23:43:44] <gezar> yep
[23:43:52] <gezar> 10x1000=?
[23:43:54] <ds2> wait, mega is 1000?!? arrg
[23:44:19] <gezar> 10000/6984=1.something psi
[23:44:22] <ds2> that gives me a 1.45PSI bolt...that cannot be right
[23:44:25] <gezar> not even an atmospher
[23:44:35] <ds2> this is for a bolt tensile strength
[23:44:38] <cradek> $ units 10MPa psi
[23:44:41] <cradek> 1450.3774
[23:44:42] <gezar> wait a moment, your talking about a bolts strenth
[23:45:15] <gezar> oh crap, kilo is 1000, M is 10000 right?
[23:45:38] <tomp> owhite: HOSTM54E.PIN do it for ya?
[23:46:14] <tomp> in /src/hal/drivers/m5i20/hostmot5_src/
[23:46:23] <gezar> 10^6
[23:46:33] <owhite> yes I'm looking at that.
[23:46:38] <ds2> how can that be a strong bolt if grade 5 (normally strong bolt) is like 50-60 (if not more) Kpsi
[23:46:55] <gezar> 10million
[23:46:58] <ds2> isn't mega 1000000?
[23:46:59] <owhite> there's onlyt one .PIN file in that directory so I figure that should be it.
[23:47:17] <gezar> yeah its a million, and yes, grade 5 is > 60ksi
[23:47:40] <gezar> but thats only in the pull, the shear is really low
[23:47:51] <ds2> okay, so I have not made a mistake converting... still puzzled as to why a 10MPa bolt is a "strong bolt"
[23:48:00] <ds2> *nod*
[23:48:41] <gezar> something isnt right
[23:48:43] <tomp> 1 MPa, =, 1.0x106 Pa
[23:48:48] <ds2> so a bolt with a diameter such that it has 1sq in will be able to dangle 60,000lb of stuff on it
[23:50:12] <ds2> that guy must have been talking about something else... a grade 10.9 bolt has a tensile of 1040 MPa
[23:50:16] <gezar> yeah
[23:50:17] <ds2> (per a table I found)
[23:50:38] <gezar> why I said something isnt right
[23:50:39] <ds2> i so hate metric
[23:50:50] <gezar> im betting he is looking at a small dia bolt
[23:51:17] <gezar> so he just said a bolt of 3mm dia has 10MPa wroth of holding tension..?
[23:51:45] <ds2> no, I was reading a thread on how brittleness is suppose to increase with the strength of a bolt
[23:52:00] <ds2> kind of like grade 8 is suppose to be more brittle then a grade 5 but they were talking in metric terms
[23:52:10] <ds2> did not metion size at all
[23:52:29] <gezar> maybe its a 10MPa diference in them?
[23:53:05] <ds2> Grade 10.9
[23:53:05] <ds2> Ultimate Tensile Strength 10MPa
[23:53:05] <ds2> Carbon Content 0.9%
[23:53:09] <ds2> that's from the post
[23:53:17] <GNieport1> jepler: thnaks
[23:53:28] <gezar> that cant be right
[23:53:45] <ds2> *nod* thought I missed something, but guess not.
[23:53:55] <tomp> owhite: i remember having to have the code and the manual together to figure out the phys pin to hal name relations, oh and inserting the board, getting a hal show all then going back to the printed docs... it was not forthright
[23:54:22] <jepler> owhite: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/hal_drivers.html#r1_5_4 ?
[23:54:52] <GNieport1> jepler: <nod>
[23:54:53] <tomp> crap thats easy!
[23:55:44] <tomp> enc-01 A input is not a hal name tho, a lot of those arent hal names
[23:56:08] <owhite> tomp: check out jepler's web page. think we hit the codex.
[23:56:08] <gezar> 10.9 isnt a grade its an iso spec
[23:56:16] <GNieport1> the format is m5i20.0.enc-01-value
[23:56:16] <tomp> they sort like hal names ( take your best gues at - or _)
[23:56:19] <dmess> gracias Jepler... ;)
[23:56:23] <gezar> ISO R898
[23:56:31] <GNieport1> m5i20.<card number>
[23:56:41] <gezar> 150ksi tensil
[23:56:54] <ds2> I'll stick with counting tick marks on the bolt head
[23:57:03] <owhite> this is meant to be a honest question. How would I have ever found that hal_drivers page? Besides lucking out on google.
[23:57:26] <tomp> use the hal show dump for the real text
[23:57:48] <jepler> owhite: linuxcnc.org > documentation > all documentation (html) > HAL > Hardware Drivers
[23:58:01] <jepler> (that actually takes you to a lightly different, linuxcnc-styled version of the documentation)
[23:58:04] <gezar> http://www.rigging.net/Bolts.html
[23:58:24] <jepler> this is also in one of the PDFs in the Applications > CNC menu in ubuntu, but I forget which one
[23:58:36] <jepler> but I have simply memorized all the important URLs
[23:59:02] <gezar> ds2 you ever fix that lathe axis?
[23:59:04] <owhite> seems reasonable.
[23:59:51] <ds2> gezar: not yet, hurt my back a bit so I am limiting my physical activities :(