#emc | Logs for 2008-01-27

[00:14:10] <GNieport1> ack! Anyone around that can offer advice on excessive following error alarms?
[00:16:44] <GNieport1> I'm adding these axes one-by-one, running siggen to tune the PID settings. Yet when I run a part program in EMC or try to jog, I am getting following errors at random during the motion...
[00:17:09] <GNieport1> "random"
[00:17:26] <GNieport1> Primarily during accel
[00:17:29] <skunkworks> what is your following error set to?
[00:17:48] <GNieport1> FERROR = 1 MINFERROR = 0.005
[00:17:59] <skunkworks> and how does the following error look in halscope?
[00:18:32] <GNieport1> the position is tracking a squarewave fairly well
[00:18:49] <cradek> set halscope to trigger on axis.N.ferrored
[00:18:49] <GNieport1> I increased P until oscillation, then backed it off
[00:19:01] <cradek> is that .005 inch or mm?
[00:19:07] <GNieport1> then brought up I to get closer to command velocity
[00:19:13] <GNieport1> inch
[00:19:20] <cradek> 1 inch is way way too big then
[00:19:44] <cradek> (unless you are tuning)
[00:20:05] <GNieport1> okay, but won't decreasing it aggravate the alarms?
[00:20:17] <GNieport1> yes, I am tuning, this is a new machine
[00:20:40] <GNieport1> well, I believe the PID settings are quite close
[00:20:41] <cradek> if you are still tuning, increase min_ferror
[00:21:11] <GNieport1> I thought I was finished tuning; I had tried to run a part program
[00:21:28] <cradek> if you get a plot of commanded position (and ideally also velocity) as well as following error maybe someone can offer advise
[00:21:35] <GNieport1> 10% feed rate works fine, but get above 75% feed rate, and it faults
[00:22:03] <cradek> well these errors mean that your axis is not tracking as well as you require with your FERROR settings
[00:22:04] <GNieport1> alright, I get a screen shot
[00:22:11] <cradek> so, you are not done :-)
[00:22:18] <GNieport1> I suppose not :)
[00:22:31] <skunkworks> heh :)
[00:24:56] <skunkworks> GNieport: you will probably be adjusting p,i,d and maybe ff2.. (don't ask me how to do it though)
[00:25:12] <skunkworks> (not just p)
[00:25:21] <GNieport1> what type of stimulus is preferred for the scope screen shot
[00:25:46] <GNieport1> square, sine, triangle...?
[00:25:52] <toastydeath> hey guys, I started a general machining chatroom, and posted some links on the various forums
[00:26:04] <toastydeath> if you are interested, the channel is #machine on freenode (here).
[00:29:46] <cradek> GNieport1: I just make a short program that repeats short G0 moves back and forth with G4 pauses in between
[00:30:02] <cradek> then you can trigger repeatedly and see the changes as you tweak the numbers
[00:39:52] <skunkworks> cradek: do you tweek the numbers within hal - or do you use the axis config page?
[00:40:07] <cradek> I've done both
[00:40:23] <skunkworks> I type too slow to do it in hal I think ;)
[00:41:28] <skunkworks> that seems like a cool way to do it. keep adjusting the numbers as the program is running back and forth. (jmk might not like it) /troll
[00:41:55] <jmkasunich> I always tune in HAL with setp
[00:42:07] <cradek> yeah you can quickly narrow in on good settings if you have a new plot every few seconds
[00:42:19] <skunkworks> yes - and you do it with just hal.
[00:42:21] <jmkasunich> history helps a lot - you can up-arrow to "setp pid.0.Pgain 100" and just change the number
[00:43:16] <GNieport1> I am using HAL :)
[00:43:18] <skunkworks> that is nice. Playing with the at_pid - i did that
[00:43:33] <GNieport1> I only ran a part program to check the progress
[00:43:37] <GNieport1> http://imagebin.ca/view/8I-w_rk.html
[00:43:39] <skunkworks> lots of true - false settings
[00:45:03] <GNieport1> that is Halscope, P (8) I (7) D (0.1) siggen.0.square freq 0.5 amp 0.01
[00:45:27] <GNieport1> I could not determin how to plot velocity
[00:45:28] <cradek> it doesn't settle on target
[00:45:41] <GNieport1> yes.
[00:45:50] <GNieport1> More P = oscillation
[00:46:00] <GNieport1> more I = doesn't settle
[00:46:07] <GNieport1> More D = VIOLENT
[00:46:14] <GNieport1> 8-)
[00:46:51] <GNieport1> D = 0.5 did a good impression of a telephone ringer
[00:47:56] <cradek> D is definitely touchy
[00:48:29] <GNieport1> Physically, the machine has about 0.0005 inch backlash. Straight coupling from motor to ballscrew
[00:48:34] <cradek> D can stop the oscillation of a higher P
[00:48:42] <cradek> encoder is on the screw or the motor?
[00:48:45] <GNieport1> motor
[00:49:00] <cradek> good
[00:49:37] <cradek> I suggest you use emc jogs/rapids so you don't have this step response
[00:50:08] <cradek> then you can twiddle FF1,FF2,D to get very good tracking (possibly turn off I while you do this)
[00:50:28] <cradek> once you have excellent tracking you can increase I a lot to make sure it settles correctly and stays there
[00:50:46] <cradek> but, if your tracking is bad and you increase I, it will wind up and make everything worse
[00:50:59] <GNieport1> well, I wrote a gcode sequence to shuffle to and fro 0.5"
[00:51:18] <GNieport1> you suggest to run that and scope the ferror
[00:51:39] <GNieport1> so zero out I
[00:51:42] <cradek> yes
[00:52:05] <cradek> increase P as much as possible, using D to prevent oscillation
[00:52:09] <GNieport1> Do i set P jsut below oscillation and leave it there?
[00:52:13] <GNieport1> oh
[00:52:27] <GNieport1> okay, be back later :)
[00:52:28] <cradek> you can often raise it further
[00:52:41] <GNieport1> this may take a while
[00:52:43] <cradek> after you do that, use FF1,FF2 to track well (they are VERY touchy)
[00:52:58] <GNieport1> i.e. 0.01 increments touchy?
[00:53:21] <cradek> once you have that, increase I a lot so it fights you if you try to push it off position
[00:53:45] <cradek> yes the numbers will be very small, you'll see the influence in the plot
[00:53:56] <GNieport1> great, I'll get started
[00:54:02] <cradek> good luck
[00:54:06] <GNieport1> :)
[00:54:12] <cradek> if you get it, please write a wiki page :-)
[00:54:21] <GNieport1> okay
[00:54:34] <cradek> and beware this is how I do it - lots of ways I'm sure
[00:55:54] <GNieport1> just to recap, load up a kinder stimulus; increase p, increase d to cancel oscillation, repeat a while; try adding FF1 FF2 in small increments; bring up I to finish
[00:56:20] <cradek> yes that's what I've had good luck with
[00:56:32] <Gamma-X> u guys are talkin about pid and didnt even let me know
[00:56:36] <GNieport1> okay, got to document so I can write the wiki - lol
[00:56:44] <cradek> if it tracks well, you can add I with impunity
[00:56:47] <Gamma-X> guess whos got 40 dollars in sushi all to them selves! yay
[00:56:57] <cradek> if not, I will totally screw it up
[00:57:03] <GNieport1> good luck with that
[00:57:03] <cradek> haha "I will"
[00:59:10] <Gamma-X> y is nobody opped in here?
[00:59:21] <cradek> we don't need it
[00:59:48] <Gamma-X> what if someone flooded teh chan?
[01:00:04] <cradek> then I'd kick them
[01:00:17] <Gamma-X> .. ok
[01:00:20] <cradek> but we don't ever have any trouble
[01:00:55] <Gamma-X> thats cool. cradek i search through logs from like years ago and i still see ur name way back then lol thats awsome that uve been helpin out for so long.
[01:01:15] <cradek> thanks I appreciate it
[01:01:26] <cradek> it's a good project
[01:01:36] <Gamma-X> u and everyone else deserve it. it is. not too many people know about it though
[01:02:07] <cradek> I suspect everyone who looks for open source machine control software finds it
[01:02:13] <cradek> that's what counts
[01:02:23] <toastydeath> it was certainly the first hit I got
[01:03:00] <Gamma-X> welll... not too many poeple think to look for it... thats the problem
[01:03:08] <Gamma-X> think of how many people are using mach3
[01:03:38] <cradek> no skin off our backs, there are lots of answers to the different problems people have
[01:03:53] <Gamma-X> true
[01:04:06] <cradek> my answer needed to be open source, so I joined the project and helped make it into what I thought was best
[01:04:15] <cradek> same for others
[01:04:50] <Gamma-X> u can just tell how much more this is advanced and worked out than any other ubuntu distro.
[01:04:58] <Gamma-X> its not just a tool kit
[01:05:05] <cradek> bbl
[01:05:40] <Gamma-X> ok
[01:30:47] <Roguish> ok, little help please, what does this mean: core_servo.hal:42: Ini variable not found.
[02:49:37] <Jymm> Roguish: check on or around line 42 of that file
[03:06:21] <GNieport1> this PID tuning is BS
[03:06:51] <GNieport1> trial and error with 6 variables is rediculous
[03:08:03] <cradek> it definitely takes practice
[03:09:08] <GNieport1> I am not making any progress, the system is totally unstable. Any upset and it goes into oscillation and shuts down the amplifier
[03:09:13] <jmkasunich> you need to divide and conqueror
[03:09:21] <jmkasunich> turn off all the FF gains (set to zero)
[03:09:31] <GNieport1> go on...
[03:09:46] <jmkasunich> turn off D and I
[03:09:46] <cradek> I outlined a procedure earlier - are you stuck at one particular step?
[03:11:09] <GNieport1> Chris, I got P all the way up to 36 and D to 0.4. Any change in amplitude and it falls apart
[03:11:42] <cradek> sorry I don't understand what that means
[03:11:51] <GNieport1> hrm
[03:12:10] <cradek> when P is high enough it barely oscillates, you can damp it with a bit of D
[03:12:27] <cradek> at that point you should have some kind of stable response
[03:13:41] <cradek> it won't track very well yet, but you should be able to run your rapid-back-and-forth program
[03:13:41] <GNieport1> I am using a sine function to stimulate. Frequency 4 and amplitude 0.01. When P starts to osc., I backed off 0.5 and added 0.1 to D
[03:14:13] <GNieport1> I quit the program, the moves were not aggressive enough to expose any weakness
[03:14:23] <cradek> I have no idea what sine response should look like
[03:14:24] <GNieport1> went back to HAL
[03:14:54] <jmkasunich> I woudn't use sine
[03:15:03] <GNieport1> Well, about the same as g01 0.5; g01 -0.5
[03:15:10] <jmkasunich> you want step, or something a little milder but still steppish
[03:15:22] <cradek> no it's not the same
[03:15:23] <seb_kuzminsky> gnieport: that's steppish innit?
[03:15:46] <jmkasunich> the idea is to have a change, then a steady command, so you can observe how it approaches and holds the steady value
[03:15:46] <cradek> I think you want the same motion profile emc will use
[03:15:57] <cradek> yes, a g0 move has an accel, cruise, and decel
[03:16:03] <jmkasunich> sine wave never stops, so you can't observe the settling
[03:16:12] <cradek> you can tweak the accel/decel with FF2, you can tweak the cruise with FF1
[03:16:36] <cradek> you can tweak the final end position with I,D
[03:16:52] <cradek> a sine doesn't tell you anything about how emc will work
[03:16:57] <GNieport1> hmm FF2 from 0 to 0.1 the the motor tried to throw the screw through the side of the machine :(
[03:17:20] <cradek> way too high I bet
[03:19:51] <GNieport1> jmkasunich: what is steppish but milder within HAL
[03:24:54] <jmkasunich> square wave thru a limit2 block
[03:25:03] <jmkasunich> or an EMC move, like cradek uses
[03:25:10] <jmkasunich> probably the latter is easier
[03:26:43] <GNieport1> what is a good way to allow a short settling time after a g00 or g01 move?
[03:26:52] <cradek> g4
[03:27:31] <cradek> 18:29:46 < cradek> GNieport1: I just make a short program that repeats short
[03:27:32] <cradek> G0 moves back and forth with G4 pauses in between
[03:27:42] <cradek> ^^ 3 hours ago
[03:28:05] <jmkasunich> you could also use M0 pauses, if you want to be able to tweak something, hit a key to make one move, tweak some more, hit a key to make one move, etc
[03:28:07] <toastydeath> g4 p<time>
[03:28:13] <jmkasunich> you gotta look at the scope pictures
[03:28:16] <toastydeath> as cradek said
[03:28:44] <jmkasunich> for me, tuning is kind of a zen thing - you stare at it, and change things, and stare at it, and change things, and after a while you start to "get it"
[03:29:06] <jmkasunich> I typically allow several hours to get an axis tuned, and just try to get in the zone
[03:29:18] <GNieport1> It's bound to hit me soon, I've been staring a halscope for 12 hours in the last two days
[03:29:23] <cradek> it's not magic though.
[03:29:34] <Gamma-X> lol
[03:29:52] <GNieport1> :-/
[03:29:59] <jmkasunich> there are direct cause-and-effect relationships between each of the gains, and things that happen
[03:30:08] <cradek> there's all this mysticism around it. ignore that and learn what each of the numbers do
[03:30:11] <cradek> right
[03:30:12] <jmkasunich> but you gotta be willing to really think about it
[03:30:50] <jmkasunich> the "mysticism" is just because it can sometimes be hard to get all of the effects in your brain at the same time
[03:31:26] <toastydeath> i know i said this before but i'll spam it again: new general machinist chat, #machine
[03:31:28] <jmkasunich> you really should try to get your output scaling "right"
[03:32:44] <GNieport1> It's all too vague. If there was a rule, this would be much easier. "Increase P until you get three decay oscillations. Then subtract 5%. Increase D by a factor of 0.58"
[03:32:45] <GNieport1> Too bad i don't need a dissertation on control theory
[03:32:45] <SWPadnos> there are rules like that, but they are only applicable in certain circumstances, and they aren't necessarily "optimal", they're just "functional"
[03:32:45] <jmkasunich> some things can't be put into recipies that can be followed without understanding
[03:32:45] <GNieport1> The guys nhelped me set up scaling yesterday. It's spot on.
[03:32:57] <jmkasunich> input scaling AND output scaling?
[03:33:02] <GNieport1> yes.
[03:33:12] <jmkasunich> input scaling means that if you move the machine 1" by hand, emc things it moved 1"
[03:33:22] <GNieport1> Yes, I did that two years ago :)
[03:33:38] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos hey can i call u tomorow maby if ur not busy? lol
[03:33:40] <jmkasunich> output scaling means that if you disconnect the PID loop and force "1.0" onto the output signal, the machine moves at 1 inch per second
[03:34:36] <GNieport1> 1600 rpm max speed on the screw. 5 turns per inch. Output scale 1.875
[03:34:49] <SWPadnos> Gamma-X, I don't know that it would do much good really - it's not much better than IRC (especially when I don't know your machine at all)
[03:35:33] <jmkasunich> 10V to the amps = 1600 RPM = 320 ipm = 5.333 inches/second?
[03:35:41] <GNieport1> yes.
[03:36:29] <jmkasunich> so if you command 1" per second, you want 1.875V, so scale = 1.875 - gotcha - that sounds perfect
[03:36:39] <jmkasunich> that means that the ideal FF1 gain is 1.0
[03:37:06] <GNieport1> It got really ticked when I tried .2
[03:37:12] <jmkasunich> if the command is changing by 1" per second, an FF1 of 1.0 will result in an output from the PID of 1.0, which will make the DAC produce 1.875V and the machine move at 1.0" per second
[03:37:51] <jmkasunich> if you apply a step (square wave, etc) to it, you will get nasty results, because a position step = infinite velocity for a very short time
[03:37:58] <jmkasunich> and FF1 looks at velocity
[03:38:03] <GNieport1> cradek: thanks for the g4 suggestion 3 hours ago that I missed
[03:38:15] <jmkasunich> thats why you want a softer input - like a G0 or G1 move
[03:38:46] <GNieport1> doesn't that mean that tuned for a step response = best possible tuning?
[03:39:12] <cradek> maybe, but emc will never ever step the position
[03:39:48] <GNieport1> should my gcode use g00 or g01 moves for the 'step'
[03:40:02] <jmkasunich> it is physically impossible to follow a true position step
[03:40:06] <GNieport1> and do I want to use my maximum travel speed for the feed?
[03:40:09] <jmkasunich> moving from here to there in zero time.....
[03:40:15] <GNieport1> i agree
[03:40:24] <jmkasunich> G0 produces a ramp instead of a step
[03:40:30] <jmkasunich> G1 produces a slower ramp
[03:40:45] <cradek> use whatever speed you like - you can control it with feed override too
[03:40:57] <jmkasunich> I'd tune with G0, but check with G1 at a few different F values every once in a while, as a sanity check
[03:41:02] <cradek> yes you'll want to try different speeds
[03:41:10] <GNieport1> I want to be able to jog the machine at maximum without a following error.
[03:41:21] <cradek> yes of course
[03:41:49] <GNieport1> then I will at some point be using that feed rate in my tuning gcode, yes?
[03:41:56] <cradek> yes
[03:42:01] <cradek> same as G0
[03:42:06] <GNieport1> btw thanks all for explaining this just one more time :)
[03:48:02] <GNieport1> What's the best way to determine what my INI max acceleration should be?
[03:48:29] <GNieport1> personal choice?
[03:48:46] <cradek> one thing you could do is watch the pid/dac output during the acceleration phase
[03:48:57] <cradek> if it's near the max output you know you are pushing it
[03:49:03] <jmkasunich> personal choice is part of it
[03:49:16] <jmkasunich> cradek's idea is a good way to see if you are asking more than the motors can do
[03:49:22] <jmkasunich> which you MUST avoid
[03:49:34] <cradek> I think that's the only quantitative thing you have to go on
[03:49:59] <cradek> the rest is probably just how it sounds/feels
[03:50:01] <jmkasunich> you might decide that even though the motors can do X, you only want to do X/2, because doing X makes the machine jump around, or just seems abusive to the screws and ways
[03:50:14] <jmkasunich> accel also relates to speed
[03:50:32] <jmkasunich> you want the machine to be able to slow down from top speed, or accel to stop speed, in a reasonable time
[03:50:50] <GNieport1> LOL tuning PID seems abusive to the screws/ways
[03:50:56] <jmkasunich> if it takes two seconds to get to speed, that will be kind of annoying, and may limit some things like rigid tapping
[03:51:23] <jmkasunich> going to full speed in 0.1 seconds on the other hand, might be a bit faster than you need or want
[03:52:14] <GNieport1> 380 IPM in 0.1 s; not going to happen with a 1HP motor :)
[03:52:19] <PeterW> Wanted to mention that both infinitely fast moves and controlled moves are valuable for PID tuning, they give you different information...
[03:54:04] <GNieport1> PeterW: I got a new 7i33 this week, apparently pulling ENA0 low is fatal =-O
[03:54:54] <GNieport1> bbl, putting on PID war paint
[03:55:31] <PeterW> Pulling it low should be OK , its just a HC CMOS output, but connecting it to some external voltage would likely be fatal (as fatal as a bad 74AC08 is)
[03:58:10] <PeterW> (actually 74HCT14)
[04:01:09] <GNieport> Well, I had all of the ENAX tied together, through a relay contact to GND
[04:01:37] <GNieport> fatal enough for me, I don't have hot air rework :)
[04:02:21] <SWPadnos> bah - all you need is a 1/64 tip
[04:02:29] <PeterW> Maybe shorting 4/6 of the outputs to ground at once killed it
[04:02:32] <SWPadnos> and fine cutters
[04:03:27] <GNieport> Or perhaps shorting 4/6 of the outputs to ground many dozen times
[04:04:01] <GNieport> 1/64 tip? I've never seen one :)
[04:04:10] <SWPadnos> Pace
[04:04:26] <GNieport> hmm, next I'll be shopping for a microscope
[04:04:35] <PeterW> You can also make a heat bridge with some #18 solid wire and pull the chip...
[04:04:40] <SWPadnos> bah - all you need are really really good eyes ')
[04:05:09] <SWPadnos> oh, pulling is ewasy - cut all the pins with the fine cutters, then scrape the remaining legs off with a hot iron
[04:05:26] <PeterW> Unfortunately by eyes are getting worse at the same time as parts are getting smaller...
[04:05:35] <SWPadnos> lucky you! ;)
[04:05:48] <GNieport> hmm, perhaps I'll give it to my buddy that plays with Arduinos all the time
[04:05:51] <PeterW> (my)
[04:06:00] <jmkasunich> a stereo microscope is a wonderfull thing
[04:06:09] <SWPadnos> I'm still OK with anything >= 0402
[04:06:35] <SWPadnos> but those aren't easy, especially when they're the 8-element resistor packs with 0402 spacing
[04:07:04] <PeterW> If I use 402's i always bring about 20 when I need 2, the rest get lost...
[04:07:12] <cradek> a stereo microscope with large working height and adjustable power is even more wonderful
[04:07:25] <jmkasunich> thats what we have at work
[04:07:27] <SWPadnos> and one that's impervious to resin smoke
[04:07:33] <cradek> yes I solder under it sometimes
[04:07:36] <jmkasunich> about 4" from the lens to the focal plane
[04:07:40] <jmkasunich> nice zoom range
[04:07:44] <jmkasunich> Ziess ;-)
[04:07:51] <SWPadnos> PeterW, yeah - it's really important to control your breathing around the small parts
[04:07:56] <SWPadnos> and never ever sneeze
[04:08:38] <cradek> the only trick to not losing parts is to never pick up any part more than an inch off the work surface
[04:08:48] <jmkasunich> heh - my ex-wife is a bench jeweler - they refer to small diamonds as "sneezers"
[04:09:04] <SWPadnos> that helps, but coughing or sneezing knows no bounds for parts loss
[04:14:27] <fenn> just coat your bench in flypaper
[04:14:57] <fenn> its not like you ever take anything off the bench once it's been put on
[04:15:13] <SWPadnos> hmmm. while that has some advantages, I'm not sure it makes the overall assembly process easier
[04:28:22] <GNieport1> I'm running a tuning gcode program. I am not having any luck finding something to use for the scope trigger
[04:28:32] <GNieport1> any opinions?
[04:28:55] <SWPadnos> are you doing moves like last night? (+/- 1/2" in X)
[04:29:21] <cradek> trigger on position
[04:31:03] <GNieport1> Like last night. In fact, tuning the same axis.
[04:31:45] <SWPadnos> yep - like cradek said, trigger on position (axis.0.motor-pos-cmd I think)
[04:32:08] <GNieport1> It's staying flatline
[04:32:42] <SWPadnos> check the scaling of that trace, and also make sure the scope is triggering (put it in "run" and "auto" mode for that)
[04:33:33] <SWPadnos> do you have dwells/pauses after each move?
[04:35:20] <GNieport1> dwells; auto did the trick
[04:35:42] <SWPadnos> ok, that's not going to be good for tuning, just to set the scaling and trigger level correctly
[04:38:30] <GNieport1> it will not retrigger in normal
[04:38:54] <Jymm> For those with employeer benefits, are you paying anything for them or 100% by employeer?
[04:39:05] <GNieport1> pay 20%
[04:40:05] <SWPadnos> GNieport1, are you seeing the position command change between the high and low values?
[04:40:16] <GNieport1> How would I go about setting this up to use my realworld scope? AARGH
[04:40:25] <GNieport1> yes.
[04:40:30] <SWPadnos> you wouldn't, the PID signals are all in software
[04:40:39] <SWPadnos> have you selected the trigger channel?
[04:41:00] <GNieport1> I have two unused analog outs on this 7i33 :)
[04:41:05] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:41:34] <GNieport1> trigger axis.0.motor-pos-cmd
[04:41:44] <SWPadnos> ok, and what's the level?
[04:42:01] <SWPadnos> does it show up between the high and low position?
[04:42:09] <GNieport1> +72.23u
[04:42:18] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[04:42:38] <GNieport1> I see the rising arrow and trigger line on the scope window. It crosses the waveform
[04:42:52] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:43:13] <SWPadnos> what's the total time shown on the scope?
[04:43:13] <SWPadnos> it should be 4, 8, or 16 seconds
[04:43:15] <SWPadnos> or so
[04:43:44] <GNieport1> it captures for 8 seconds, I'd sure like to reduce that :)
[04:43:51] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:43:56] <cradek> turn the number of channels up
[04:44:01] <cradek> it'll reduce
[04:44:31] <GNieport1> It was set to 16
[04:44:50] <SWPadnos> hmmm - that sounds like a non-standard number of samples
[04:44:59] <GNieport1> This computer is posessed. i'm getting the can of gasoline.
[04:45:05] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:45:14] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[04:45:18] <cradek> goodnight
[04:45:22] <SWPadnos> night
[04:51:56] <SWPadnos> got the fire out?
[04:51:59] <GNieport1> okay, fresh reboot
[04:52:20] <GNieport1> nope, i'm still fired up 8-)
[04:52:33] <SWPadnos> I was talking about the gasoline ;)
[04:52:50] <GNieport1> lol, I decided to save that option for later
[04:53:08] <SWPadnos> oh, yay
[04:58:16] <GNieport1> so I want axis.x.motor-pos-cmd pid.x.command and pid.x.feedback?
[04:58:33] <SWPadnos> sounds logical
[04:58:53] <jmkasunich> axis.x.motor-pos-cmd is probably the same as pix.x.command
[04:59:01] <jmkasunich> they are connected in HAL I would expect
[04:59:14] <jmkasunich> you want command, feedback, output, and error
[04:59:21] <jmkasunich> all can be gotten from the pid block
[04:59:30] <GNieport1> what to trigger with
[04:59:56] <jmkasunich> probably error is easiest - it will be near zero when stationary, and will deviate when you start your move
[05:00:04] <jmkasunich> so set the trigger just a hair above or below zero
[05:02:38] <GNieport1> is there a way to trigger on crossing, not either/or
[05:02:55] <jmkasunich> no
[05:03:12] <jmkasunich> if you set the level at 0.001 and the edge as rising, it will trigger when it crosses 0.001 going up
[05:03:28] <jmkasunich> you can switch to falling edge, but you can't do "any edge"
[05:04:16] <GNieport1> okay
[05:13:08] <GNieport1> http://imagebin.ca/view/Q8UZED5.html
[05:13:40] <GNieport1> now, the traces match almost perfectly. Is the PID in tune?
[05:14:17] <jmkasunich> what are your accel and velocity limits?
[05:14:24] <jmkasunich> (that doesn't seem like a very agressive move)
[05:14:44] <jmkasunich> do you have a channel showing the pid.x.error?
[05:14:54] <jmkasunich> I see four colored buttons at the bottom, but only three traces
[05:15:23] <GNieport1> the error is nil
[05:15:35] <jmkasunich> nill isn't a number
[05:15:39] <GNieport1> :)
[05:15:50] <jmkasunich> 0.01"? 0.001"? 0.0001"?
[05:16:26] <jmkasunich> I increase the gain on the error channel quite a bit - so I can see individual counts from the encoder
[05:16:45] <GNieport1> oops, my fault, gain was low
[05:16:57] <jmkasunich> typically 1m or so per division
[05:17:32] <GNieport1> well, if I keep increasing gain, teh trace goes offscreen
[05:17:54] <jmkasunich> then its not nil ;-)
[05:17:58] <SWPadnos> then it's not centered, or it's not close to 0
[05:24:43] <GNieport1> http://imagebin.ca/view/PXxDW98b.html
[05:25:17] <GNieport1> I see what to adjust! :)
[05:25:46] <GNieport1> EMC will not allow the g0 move to be performed any faster
[05:26:09] <GNieport1> I suppose this is close to worst-case if I'm not going to tune with a square-wave
[05:26:47] <GNieport1> my max_accel is three times my max_velocity
[05:27:17] <SWPadnos> that means it takes 1/3 second to get to top speed
[05:27:22] <SWPadnos> that may be a bit slow
[05:27:32] <SWPadnos> (maybe not though)
[05:27:44] <GNieport1> I'll have to check the DAC to see if it's pegged :)
[05:29:13] <GNieport1> 4.8 out of 5.0; it's pegged
[05:29:24] <SWPadnos> 5.0?
[05:29:43] <GNieport1> 5.0 on the DAC is 100% PWM duty cycle
[05:29:53] <SWPadnos> it is?
[05:29:59] <SWPadnos> you have a scale of 2?
[05:30:01] <GNieport1> for the 5i20
[05:30:19] <SWPadnos> I think that's supposed to be +/- 10
[05:30:22] <SWPadnos> not +/-5
[05:30:41] <GNieport1> the 5i20 puts out a 5 volt PWM
[05:30:55] <GNieport1> maybe i'm confused, today has been too long
[05:31:16] <GNieport1> my output scale is 1.875
[05:31:20] <SWPadnos> are you looking at the FPGA to 7i33 connection, or on the output of the 7i33?
[05:31:39] <GNieport1> I'm looking at m5i20.0.dac-00-value
[05:32:20] <SWPadnos> are you limiting that to 5 in the ini (MAX_OUTPUT)?
[05:32:48] <GNieport1> max_output is set to 10, because the docs say that is real-world volts.
[05:33:14] <SWPadnos> yes, that should be the real-world output
[05:33:25] <SWPadnos> the 7i33 does output +/- 10V
[05:33:38] <SWPadnos> (paragraph 1, page 1 - pg4 in the PDF)
[05:33:42] <GNieport1> so dac-00-value has a scale of =/- 10 also?
[05:33:51] <GNieport1> +/-
[05:33:58] <SWPadnos> I think that should go from -10 to +10, yes
[05:34:05] <GNieport1> sorry, a range of +/- 10
[05:35:00] <SWPadnos> yes, I believe the "value" parameter should go "full swing"
[05:39:32] <GNieport1> * GNieport1 hugs Halscope for saving the window settings.
[05:44:20] <GNieport1> Do I want pid.0.error to follow closely to pid.0.output, or to go to zero?
[05:44:46] <SWPadnos> the error won't stay at 0
[05:45:08] <SWPadnos> pid.0.output should follow pid.0.command pretty closely
[05:45:10] <GNieport1> what is my tuning goal for Proportional?
[05:45:16] <GNieport1> okay:)
[05:45:29] <SWPadnos> err - that's not what I meant to say actually
[05:45:47] <SWPadnos> pid.0.command should closely match pid.0.feedback
[05:46:10] <GNieport1> ah
[05:46:13] <SWPadnos> one of the methods is to increase P until you get ringing, then back off some
[05:46:21] <SWPadnos> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/2.2/html//motion_pid_theory.html
[05:46:27] <SWPadnos> http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/part2/pidtune.html
[05:46:36] <SWPadnos> lots of reading there, if you haven't already
[05:46:40] <GNieport1> would you be so kind to tell me what method works for this machine? ;)
[05:46:46] <SWPadnos> no :)
[05:46:52] <SWPadnos> I wouldn't know actually :)
[05:47:03] <GNieport1> Yes, I read it all, and have been using loops for a while
[05:47:09] <SWPadnos> ok
[05:47:35] <Jymm> SWPadnos: You know, you never used to be so synical before you started hanging around me =)
[05:47:37] <GNieport1> I'm handicapped by industrial products that have an autotune button
[05:47:38] <SWPadnos> once you back P off ( to something like 2/3 the oscillating value), you can add in bits of I, D, and FF0/1 to make things "better"
[05:47:51] <SWPadnos> Jymm, thank you very much. now go back to the garage! :)
[05:48:02] <SWPadnos> you could try the autotuning PID component
[05:48:03] <Jymm> SWPadnos: I'm in the garage!
[05:48:06] <SWPadnos> damn
[05:48:15] <Jymm> SWPadnos: but you knew that already!
[05:48:18] <SWPadnos> it's called at_pid rather than pid
[05:49:11] <GNieport1> oh hell, I've come this far, why use the 'easy' button
[05:49:15] <SWPadnos> heh
[05:49:25] <Jymm> If you contribute (let's say $10,000) into a 401k, can you loose what you've contributed?
[05:49:33] <SWPadnos> especially because we're not positive it works correctly
[05:49:43] <SWPadnos> Jymm, it depends on the investment
[05:50:00] <GNieport1> Jymm it depends on how the vesting works. And if it is in company stock (Enron)
[05:50:00] <fenn> if the dollar fails you're screwed anyway
[05:50:06] <SWPadnos> I think 40i(k) accounts can be invested in the stock market, for instance, in which case they could lose value
[05:50:15] <SWPadnos> fenn, s/if/when/
[05:52:12] <Jymm> well, shit... and I dont see anything specificyling details of the plan in this 3lb binder they shipped me
[05:56:44] <Jymm> ok, I lied... found the 401k stuff
[06:04:21] <LawrenceG> taking apart hard drives for those finger pinching magnets is FUN
[06:04:40] <GNieport1> http://imagebin.ca/view/gTZfKup.html Does the fuzzy pid.0.ouput trace indicate that I have too much P or D (the only nonzero variables)
[06:26:06] <fenn> GNieport1: i'd guess D since it's more sensitive to encoder quantization
[06:30:27] <fenn> wow grizzly belt/disc sanders are expensive
[06:31:09] <fenn> $600 for 6"x48" belt 12" disc
[06:33:11] <fenn> might as well go up to the 4HP model for $700
[06:49:01] <Jymm> fenn: Be VERY leary of it being true or even somewhat straight
[06:49:30] <Jymm> fenn: Also, see if it has a cast iron dis and not an aluminum one
[06:49:34] <Jymm> disc
[07:14:24] <fenn> eh i'm not buying one, i've already got a 1950's 12" disc sander
[07:14:42] <fenn> thinking about making a belt attachment for the shaft that sticks out the back side
[07:51:08] <Jymm> fenn: got any pics of what you are wanting to build?
[07:51:14] <Jymm> example pics that is
[08:07:13] <fenn> this pretty much http://grizzly.com/products/Combination-Sander-6-x-48-Belt-12-Disc-3450-RPM/G1183
[08:08:06] <fenn> this is cool though http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0489
[08:14:00] <Jymm> Jymm is now known as Jymmm
[10:19:12] <pierp> Hi all, I am having problems configuring emc2.2.2 with --enable-simulator flag enabled
[10:20:33] <pierp> on my laptop. I get the error "configure: error: GNU PTH library is required"
[10:21:19] <pierp> emc2.1.7 configured with just --enable-run-in-place flag runs perfectly.
[11:32:33] <fretless85> hey guys
[12:02:50] <fsdafsd> fsdafsd is now known as Unit41
[14:56:29] <jepler> http://www.netdisaster.com/go.php?mode=manif&url=http://linuxcnc.org/
[15:07:20] <tomp> netdisaster ... cool idea
[15:09:39] <archivist> running out of cap screws on a sunday is not fair /me needs 12 4mm x 20mm long
[15:10:13] <BigJohnT> stainless or 12.9
[15:10:26] <archivist> any
[15:10:38] <BigJohnT> drop over I have some
[15:10:48] <ALS> jepler: send the bot if that crowd gets unrulely
[15:11:46] <archivist> BigJohnT, possibly a large pond in the way for "drop over"
[15:12:09] <BigJohnT> ok I'll e-mail them to you
[15:12:23] <archivist> hehe
[15:13:09] <BigJohnT> I have a large supply left over from radio control helicopters from 2.5 to 6
[15:14:02] <archivist> heh, you do need spares in stock for r/c helicopters
[15:55:36] <micges> hi all
[15:56:34] <Ziegler> hi
[16:01:19] <BigJohnT> archivist: yes you need plenty of spares
[16:01:56] <archivist> BigJohnT, I had one for a short period, I only damages it once
[16:02:07] <archivist> damaged
[16:03:12] <BigJohnT> usually the damage is not a nick in the rotor but something quite amazing...
[16:03:18] <archivist> actually the project fell apart so I sold it, was for a remote camera, and was a project to add gyros to stabilize more than normal
[16:04:27] <archivist> I went to see a friend the other day and he had bought a new one, and a spare
[16:05:40] <BigJohnT> what kind is it?
[16:06:21] <archivist> cant remember
[16:06:48] <BigJohnT> my oldest one is a 70's Kavan Jet Ranger from Germany
[16:06:57] <BigJohnT> never been flown
[16:49:11] <BigJohnT> finally a glade/python tutorial that works!
[16:54:51] <fretless85> ?
[16:55:08] <archivist> url?
[16:59:08] <BigJohnT> stand by
[16:59:30] <BigJohnT> http://www.arson-network.org/index.php?class=tutorial&subargs=430
[17:00:23] <BigJohnT> now if I can get a glade gnome python to work...
[17:08:09] <tomp> http://www.manning.com/grayson/ excellent pay for pdf book on python & tkinter http://www.pythonware.com/library/an-introduction-to-tkinter.htm excellent free book http://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/lang/python/tkinter.html great tech ref for each call http://docs.python.org/tut/ guido ( creator of python ) his own tutor for python ( not tkinter ) & many more to be googled
[17:08:37] <tomp> i use those because they cover the python libs used in emc2
[17:11:45] <tomp> A Comprehensive Introduction to Python Programming and GUI Design Using Tkinter by Bruno Defour ( also in my desktop library )
[17:15:24] <archivist> libraries want feeding all the time
[17:17:19] <BigJohnT> tomp: do any of those cover glade with python
[17:18:41] <tomp> dunno, i dont use glade proper, but did get very confused by the many variants of python to glade libraries. i'm not even sure GL is needed by emc (as in not sure )
[17:19:08] <SWPadnos> GL is needed for the AXIS preview
[17:19:37] <BigJohnT> what is GL?
[17:19:52] <SWPadnos> err - openGL, the 3D library
[17:19:57] <BigJohnT> ok
[17:20:33] <tomp> i see import gtk but no text containing gl, maybe gtk includes it?
[17:20:40] <BigJohnT> the reason I got interested in glade is because the stepconf uses it
[17:23:23] <BigJohnT> Looks like GLX is the linux link for openGL
[17:26:10] <tomp> stepconf.py sez "import gtk.glade" ... i >>think< gtk.glade allows the xml formated guis to be parsed and generated, and gtk.glade is in ... dunno
[17:27:28] <tomp> and glade itself is a drag&drop interface builder ( saves whatyousee as an xml file )
[17:28:01] <BigJohnT> yes kinda when you run it it resizes to fit LOL
[17:28:21] <BigJohnT> glade makes gui design easy
[17:28:22] <tomp> so , you might not need to know much about glade just to use an xml description of a user interface or to use emc or to use stepconf
[17:29:01] <tomp> glade makes gui design simple, not gui use ;-) ( whatcha gonna do with that thing now? )
[17:30:22] <BigJohnT> use it with python which is kinda easy to program
[17:30:53] <BigJohnT> the biggest hurdle was sorting out the "signals" between the glade gui and python
[17:32:03] <BigJohnT> the biggest pain in python is generating the gui, glade makes that part fast and easy
[18:49:54] <skunkworks> yeck. 2 different circuits go to 1 electrical box.
[18:50:16] <skunkworks> (this was done in the 90's)
[19:05:47] <phil_> hello users of emc2 ..
[19:06:11] <phil_> someone is here ? i would like to know what is your solution to milling some PCB with EMC2 ?
[19:06:29] <phil_> i generate gerber file from DXP..
[19:06:49] <cradek> I use Eagle's user language scripting to generate gcode directly
[19:07:05] <cradek> I don't know how gerber is used, or how to get gcode from it
[19:07:09] <phil_> hello cradek, everytime here ;) happy new year att all of course ;)
[19:07:17] <cradek> thanks
[19:07:49] <phil_> an import solution from gerber in emc2 is maybe in development ?
[19:08:13] <phil_> all my search give eagle solution .. i dont use eagle .
[19:08:31] <cradek> if it's possible to translate from gerber to gcode, you could do that in an AXIS input filter
[19:08:49] <cradek> I do not know if anyone has written something like that.
[19:08:50] <phil_> what is axis input filter ?
[19:09:05] <cradek> a program that generates gcode from some other file
[19:09:21] <phil_> how i try it ?
[19:09:38] <cradek> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui_axis.html#r1_11_1
[19:10:35] <phil_> ty i will read it
[19:11:50] <phil_> if i right understand, i need to provide a translator script ..?
[19:12:05] <cradek> yes
[19:12:53] <phil_> :( ... everybody use eagle here ?
[19:14:34] <phil_> cradek, do you have a link to see wich tools you use to milling pcb ?
[19:15:11] <cradek> some information on timeguy.com
[19:15:19] <jmkasunich> one of the problems with a gerber input filter is that most gerber files are positives - they tell you how to draw the copper
[19:15:44] <jmkasunich> when machining, you want to "draw" everything that is NOT copper
[19:16:08] <phil_> yes i allready look at here, but my english is not perfect, i prefer look a picture to be sure ..
[19:17:52] <archivist> gerber->png->"some prog generate gcode to cut the black/white"
[19:17:55] <phil_> yes jmkasunich, need a great tanslator .. i try KCAM, i'm not sur that he do a ggod job
[19:18:10] <jmkasunich> translating from positive to negative is NOT a trivial problem at all
[19:18:26] <phil_> no Gcode from Altium DXP ( Protel ) .. :(
[19:18:53] <jmkasunich> imagine a 0.050" diameter round pad, with three 0.015" wide traces leading to it from three different directions
[19:19:08] <jmkasunich> 4 lines in gerber - flash the pad, draw three straight lines
[19:19:29] <jmkasunich> but to machine the profile, you have to do both sides of each trace, and multiple arcs between them
[19:19:41] <jmkasunich> and you have to know about all three traces before you can generate any of the code
[19:19:56] <phil_> yes i agree jmka
[19:20:01] <jmkasunich> unlike the gerber code, which can draw the lines and flash the pad in any order
[19:21:00] <phil_> the product job of KCAM seem realy not optimized ..
[19:22:46] <phil_> weel, my little girl wait me to eat .. need to go, thanks all, will try next week end ;)
[19:22:51] <phil_> have a nice week all
[20:15:06] <Jymmm> So, if I donwloaded some gerber files from the web, I couldn't run them thru the script that jepler created to create the gcode files?
[20:19:21] <archivist> pcb milling seems to be a common need
[20:19:46] <archivist> I must have a look at it one day
[20:21:05] <cradek> for single side boards it's great
[20:21:17] <cradek> I should get outside - it's 45 degrees
[20:48:45] <phil_> i'm back for some minutes ;), yes Archivist, it's a common need ;)
[20:49:49] <archivist> I have a pcb to do soon
[20:50:41] <phil_> what is soon for you ? next week ? lol ;)
[20:51:12] <phil_> is it possible to add import gerber under emc2 ?
[20:51:16] <archivist> I spent many a year designing pcb's and getting someone elsta to make them, but that was at the previous job
[20:52:13] <archivist> I see two ways a quick and dirty, and a better way
[20:52:47] <phil_> i maybe help you to design your next pcb ..?
[20:52:58] <archivist> gerber to bitmap then use a bitmap to gcode program
[20:53:11] <archivist> that would be quick and dirty
[20:53:41] <archivist> the proper way is way more involved
[20:54:01] <phil_> i think it's not a good way
[20:57:50] <phil_> i look at Youtube, there are some good video job
[21:01:51] <SWPadnos> the proper way would be to create a vector representation of the outlines - which isn't simple because of the various line widths and flash shapes (pads and whatnot), then create the toolpaths from that outline
[21:02:39] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: and that's usually easier in the program which created the gerber in the first place
[21:03:02] <SWPadnos> should be, but it depends on whether a script writer has access to that geometry ;)
[21:03:52] <phil_> there is maybe some good algorithm on google ?...
[21:09:43] <archivist> * archivist needs to read his graphics gems books for an algorithm
[21:10:47] <archivist> follow outline, merge paths , clean or ignore unused area
[21:12:02] <lerman> If "isolation" routing is OK, this is pretty easy. Convert to a bitmap, then trace the outline of each area, converting to gcode on the fly.
[21:14:20] <phil_> some soft like Galaad do that job ..
[21:15:35] <archivist> ew costly
[21:15:53] <phil_> yes and under windows ..
[21:16:16] <archivist> time to write something
[21:18:04] <phil_> loool YES !.. ;)
[21:19:31] <phil_> what is the best way to install eagle ? i have download the rpm file .. just click on the file ?
[21:20:14] <skunkworks> I had downloaded it using synaptic package manager.
[21:22:47] <phil_> i search on synaptic, but the only source find is something about MODEM ...
[21:22:58] <phil_> but i have an error when i run synaptic
[21:23:25] <phil_> many lines like :
[21:23:27] <phil_> W: Impossible de localiser la liste des paquets sources http://fr.archive.ubuntu.com breezy/main Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/fr.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy_main_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 Aucun fichier ou répertoire de ce type)
[21:23:30] <Jymmm> So, if I downloaded some gerber files from the web, I couldn't run them thru the script that jepler created to generate the gcode files?
[21:24:20] <archivist> not all gerbers are the same
[21:24:33] <jepler> jymmm: I haven't written any programs for gerber
[21:24:44] <archivist> and the flash setups could be different
[21:24:56] <Jymmm> jepler: eagle?
[21:25:23] <SWPadnos> RS264D and RS274X are pretty standard, but there are different specified formats that not everyone supports
[21:25:29] <SWPadnos> err - RS274D
[21:25:34] <jepler> phil_: the "breezy" version of ubuntu is no longer supported by ubuntu or by us. http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Breezy_Upgrading -- you can upgrade http://emergent.unpy.net/01186407274 -- or change some configuration files to get the last version of all packages for breezy
[21:25:39] <jepler> Jymmm: eagle does not load gerber files
[21:26:10] <jepler> phil_: or do a reinstall with the current ubuntu dapper live cd http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/21/4/lang,en/
[21:26:15] <Jymmm> jepler: excucuse the symantics, but didn't you or cradek write something to generate gcode for milling PCB's?
[21:26:41] <phil_> i know jepler, buti'm newbie under linux and i'm scare about to change anything .. my EMC2 station work, i don't want broke something !
[21:26:41] <SWPadnos> that's a .ulp file, which is a script that runs inside eagle to generate G-code
[21:26:51] <skunkworks> it is an eagle script - generates gcode from within eagle
[21:26:55] <SWPadnos> it doesn't take gerber files and "translate" them for machining
[21:27:05] <skunkworks> what SWPadnos said
[21:27:18] <Jymmm> Ah, I didn't relaize the output from eagel wasn't gerber format.
[21:27:41] <SWPadnos> it is, but the script runs within eagle, and has access to eagle internal data structures
[21:27:56] <SWPadnos> eagle files are not G-code, but it can export G-code for a photoplotter
[21:28:14] <SWPadnos> (at least I hope it can - it would be pretty useless if it couldn't)
[21:28:34] <jepler> SWPadnos: eagle has various export possibilities, I am not familiar with them (have never used gerber format)
[21:29:04] <SWPadnos> it's basically the only way to get a board produced (by a board house), so I'm 99.9 sure it can do it
[21:29:11] <SWPadnos> "export for fabrication" or similar
[21:29:16] <SWPadnos> output CAM files ...
[21:30:36] <LawrenceG> A lot of board houses will take an eagle file directly... makes for a lot less mistakes
[21:30:52] <SWPadnos> interesting - I haven't seen any
[21:31:05] <SWPadnos> oh- maybe Olimex or one of those
[21:31:51] <phil_> i confirm, most pcb maker use Gerber .. i send all time gerber file and the maker send back the PCB .. www.eurocircuits.com
[21:34:14] <LawrenceG> http://www.cadsoftusa.com/Boardhouses/
[21:34:44] <LawrenceG> i have used http://www.custompcb.com/
[21:35:32] <phil_> i have found : "gerber_to_gcode_0.1.6.tar.gz" .. the sources files maybe includ under AXIS ?...
[21:38:12] <LawrenceG> phil_: link??
[21:38:36] <archivist> where wot? google cant see
[21:40:40] <phil_> http://sourceforge.net/projects/gerbertogcode
[21:40:51] <archivist> I just found it
[21:41:12] <LawrenceG> I would like to be able to generate gcode from pcb patterns scanned from magazines.... any bmp_to_gcode?
[21:42:03] <phil_> some goods links on google with "gerber 2 gcode" search
[21:49:10] <Jymmm> Question... In this cog making video, he changes to 1/8" bit (it looks like). Now, when he cuts out the cog from the stock (not shown in video), it's too short to go thru the 1/2" or 3/4" MDF. How would you typically accomplish that? I've never seen tooling of that nature.
[21:49:34] <Jymmm> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3133898738886800969&q=cnc+router&total=712&start=0&num=100&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
[21:54:01] <phil_> Archivist, you look at gerber2gcode ?
[21:56:16] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Inkscape can trace a bitmap to vector format
[21:57:35] <phil_> i try to install Eagle .. but unlucky !.. i read that : - If you are installing the downloaded TGZ archive, enter the commands
[21:57:35] <phil_> tar xzf eagle-lin-eng-4.16r2.tgz
[21:57:35] <phil_> eagle-lin-eng-4.16r2/install
[21:57:35] <phil_> and wait until they have ended.
[21:57:35] <LawrenceG> that would help, but the cutter realy needs to be offset from the edges of the copper.... the tricky part
[21:57:36] <phil_> - Enter the command
[21:57:38] <phil_> eagle
[21:57:40] <phil_> to invoke the product registration.
[21:57:57] <phil_> i'm root, but not possible to mkdir opt/eagle !..
[21:57:59] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Once you have a vector format, you can use eagle I believe
[22:00:00] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: http://www.interq.or.jp/japan/se-inoue/e_eagle44.htm
[22:00:29] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: http://www.brusselsprout.org/PCB-Routing/
[22:01:02] <Jymmm> Gerber to Eagle to G-Code
[22:05:15] <LawrenceG> Jymmm: check out http://imagebin.ca/view/Zau2sfg.html ... It was cold here last night
[22:08:45] <toastydeath> i thought those were decorative window blinds for a second
[22:08:55] <toastydeath> more than a seconds
[22:08:58] <toastydeath> -s
[22:09:06] <LawrenceG> some cool icr crytals on the outside of the glass
[22:10:37] <LawrenceG> yea... looks like that cheap plastic film you glue on bathroom windows!
[22:11:29] <toastydeath> no i meant like, it looks like someone painted tress/waves on some hanging window blinds
[22:11:37] <toastydeath> i didn't realize it was glass
[22:14:38] <LawrenceG> http://imagebin.ca/view/5Wloibu.html front window... wipers at bottom
[22:15:20] <LawrenceG> all melted now.... very close to freezing still
[22:15:45] <LawrenceG> a few minutes in the sun and it was ruined
[22:17:18] <phil_> why there is a PCB picture on the top of tha AXIS web page ?...
[22:32:10] <phil_> well .. can't creat eagle directory in /opt .. don't know why ( i'm superuser ! )
[22:33:40] <phil_> i have try with "sudo" instead of "su" and now it's work ..
[22:40:14] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: looks very cool though =)
[22:44:47] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Hey, guess what... not everything will physically fit into that enclosure!
[22:48:15] <phil_> well everybody, go to sleep . .. hope a guru of Axis make a good "import gerber" option .. ;)
[22:49:12] <toastydeath> lol
[22:52:38] <Juanjo> Juanjo is now known as juanjo
[23:01:41] <Jymmm> Has anyone tried any of the mini-atx boards for RT latency?
[23:02:01] <Jymmm> Or have a suggestion to a mobo that will fit in tight spaces?
[23:09:26] <alex_joni> Jymmm: VIA EPia is reported to run fairly well
[23:09:48] <Jymmm> alex_joni: any specific model?
[23:09:59] <Jymmm> http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/motherboards.jsp?motherboard_id=530
[23:10:23] <alex_joni> http://www.trilobyte.ch/pix/index.php?spgmGal=fraese/Beckhoff
[23:10:40] <alex_joni> VIA EPIA M10000
[23:10:44] <alex_joni> Mini ITX
[23:11:57] <dave_1> jmk ... you around
[23:12:01] <Jymmm> alex_joni: who's that by? And when did the latency test go gui on me?
[23:12:15] <alex_joni> oh, the gui is 2-3 releases old
[23:12:25] <alex_joni> some guy in germany tested that board
[23:12:36] <Jymmm> alex_joni: base thread looks bad
[23:13:00] <Jymmm> I'm used to cli, so I might be reading it wrong
[23:13:08] <Jymmm> http://www.trilobyte.ch/pix/index.php?spgmGal=fraese/Beckhoff&spgmPic=7#spgmPicture
[23:15:48] <alex_joni> it's supposed to be 25000 every time
[23:16:07] <alex_joni> the max value recorded was 32067, which gives a max latency of 7794nsec
[23:16:14] <alex_joni> which is *very* good imo
[23:16:23] <Jymmm> alex_joni: ah, I *AM* reading it wrong.
[23:16:38] <alex_joni> ok :)
[23:17:38] <dave_1> and if you get negative numbers????
[23:18:09] <alex_joni> dave_1: that's not good either
[23:18:19] <dave_1> it is wrapping?
[23:18:22] <alex_joni> that means it ran a bit faster than it was supposed to
[23:18:48] <alex_joni> you need to use the max jitter as = abs(max-negative-value) + max-positive-value
[23:19:10] <dave_1> OK
[23:20:56] <dave_1> anyone feel like helping with homing?
[23:21:03] <juanjo> juanjo is now known as Juanjo
[23:21:46] <dave_1> encoder index is always TRUE
[23:22:02] <alex_joni> dave_1: always?
[23:22:09] <alex_joni> if so.. it's broken
[23:22:15] <dave_1> as far as I can tell.
[23:22:27] <alex_joni> it might be active low..
[23:22:35] <dave_1> even on the channels that are not connected
[23:22:41] <alex_joni> so it only goes low for a very small amount of time
[23:22:47] <alex_joni> hmm.. what HW?
[23:23:02] <dave_1> motenc-100
[23:23:19] <dave_1> Koyo encoders
[23:23:34] <alex_joni> do the encoders work?
[23:23:37] <alex_joni> counting I mean..
[23:23:58] <dave_1> when I tested on the bench ... with a scope I could see the encoder pulse going high
[23:24:07] <dave_1> yes, counts just fine
[23:24:19] <alex_joni> and now it's stuck at HIGH?
[23:24:32] <dave_1> different Koyo encoder
[23:24:36] <alex_joni> I would first try to see (with a scope) if it's all how it should be
[23:24:45] <alex_joni> after that I'd try to get a halscope plot
[23:24:53] <alex_joni> (trigger on index low.. or something)
[23:25:27] <dave_1> guess I have more work to do... ugh.
[23:26:27] <dave_1> I'll grit my teeth and go play
[23:27:46] <jmkasunich> dave_1: you still here?
[23:27:50] <dave_1> yep
[23:28:06] <jmkasunich> I don't know any more about the motenc than anybody else
[23:28:18] <jmkasunich> including even what the "index" hal pin means
[23:28:31] <jmkasunich> index-enable is the one that is used for homing, etc
[23:29:08] <jmkasunich> what are your symptoms again?
[23:29:15] <dave_1> normally Xindex gets set by the index then it sets index enable the way I read the hal
[23:29:43] <jmkasunich> well, I honestly don't know if the motenc board follows the canonical interface or not
[23:29:57] <dave_1> with halmeter the index pin is always T and the index-enable is always F
[23:30:29] <jmkasunich> hal pin <whatever>.index is meaningless on a hardware encoder counter. because the reason you are using hardware is that counts and index pulses may be too short for software to see them
[23:30:47] <jmkasunich> hence, having a HAL pin that is simply a copy of the physical index input is kinda dumb
[23:31:17] <dave_1> demo_mazak should tell me ... basically the same board as Galesburg but 8 chan
[23:31:32] <jmkasunich> demo-mazak works
[23:31:37] <dave_1> I know
[23:31:43] <jmkasunich> but that isn't going to tell you anything about the .index pin
[23:31:54] <jmkasunich> because I'll bet you its not used in that config
[23:31:59] <dave_1> but it should tell me what you did
[23:32:03] <jmkasunich> index enable is what matters
[23:32:18] <cxix> is there an rpm version of emc or something easier to install ?
[23:32:28] <alex_joni> cxix: there is a deb
[23:32:38] <alex_joni> what distro are you interested in ?
[23:32:44] <alex_joni> s/in/for/
[23:32:46] <cxix> im using mandriva
[23:33:08] <dave_1> so motenc.0.index.0 or what ever should drive the enable directly?
[23:33:18] <cxix> i tried installing the ubuntu live cd, but after fiddling for a day straight, it still wouldn't recognize my keyboard.
[23:33:27] <alex_joni> your keyboard?
[23:33:32] <jmkasunich> dave_1: index-enable is a bidirectional signa;
[23:33:39] <cxix> i could not type to log in to ubuntu
[23:33:49] <dave_1> not a bit?
[23:33:49] <alex_joni> USB keyboard?
[23:33:54] <cxix> nope
[23:34:03] <jmkasunich> dave_1: it is a bit
[23:34:07] <alex_joni> I mean.. tried plugging in an USB keyboard?
[23:34:16] <jmkasunich> bit is the data type, bidirectional is the direction of data flow
[23:34:20] <dave_1> so low | high T | F
[23:34:20] <alex_joni> it's an odd error report though..
[23:34:23] <jmkasunich> most pins are either in or out
[23:34:27] <cxix> i went through the config about 20 times with different keyboards, nothing worked
[23:34:32] <cxix> no, i didnt try a usb keyboard
[23:34:46] <alex_joni> cxix: I bet it's not the keyboard which is problematic
[23:34:56] <alex_joni> installing on mandriva *will* be a much bigger pain
[23:35:10] <alex_joni> as you need to compile/patch with RTAI a kernel on your own
[23:35:19] <dave_1> guess it is time for me to go see what you did at Galesburg and to scope the encoder
[23:35:21] <alex_joni> only after that you need to compile emc2, etc
[23:35:35] <cxix> so, now i instaled mandriva, and downloaded emc, well you have to install rtai, to do that you need some other crap, and to instal that you need other crap... i've been at this since 9 this morning
[23:35:35] <jmkasunich> dave_1: I'm waiting for the other conversation to die down
[23:35:42] <dave_1> ok
[23:35:43] <alex_joni> cxix: I'd try the stock Ubuntu 6.06.1 Live CD
[23:35:55] <jmkasunich> cxix: you do NOT want to use mandriva
[23:36:01] <alex_joni> cxix: installing emc2 on mandriva will take a week at least
[23:36:03] <cxix> i think you're all right about that
[23:36:12] <jmkasunich> using a distro for which there is no RT kernel will take a lot of tricky work
[23:36:21] <cxix> ok, so what could the issue be if it doesn't recognize the keyboard?
[23:36:37] <jmkasunich> when exactly doesn
[23:36:39] <jmkasunich> oops
[23:36:46] <jmkasunich> when exactly doesn't the keyboard work?
[23:36:47] <alex_joni> cxix: we need more data to say
[23:36:49] <jmkasunich> does it never work?
[23:36:56] <jmkasunich> does it work during the install, but not later?
[23:37:02] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: if I understood it correctly the LiveCD works..
[23:37:18] <cxix> it works on the live cd, it works at the terminal, but when i try to boot into the ubuntu gui, it will not let me log in. no lights on the keyboard, no input possible
[23:37:37] <alex_joni> cxix: that sounds like it locks up
[23:37:38] <cxix> here's part of the problem...
[23:37:53] <alex_joni> can you still switch to console? (Ctrl-Alt-F1..F6)
[23:38:09] <alex_joni> if that doesn't work, then the most likely is that X crashes your machine
[23:38:21] <alex_joni> try a different driver for X then (vesa or fb)
[23:39:14] <fenn> does the cursor blink normally?
[23:39:25] <cxix> something's weird with my computer i'm going to use as the controller, it's a bit slow - no operating system will instal on that computer - they all freeze... so i take the hard drive out and put it in my server computer, install the OS, and put it back into the controller computer. well, the graphics cards are different, so i had to run through the configuration (sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg), and the try to login and it doesnt work
[23:39:40] <cxix> i can not switch to the console, no inputs work from it.
[23:39:54] <fenn> try running a memory test from the boot up screen
[23:39:54] <alex_joni> fenn: it blinks here
[23:39:55] <cxix> the cursor blinks fine, the mouse works and everything too
[23:39:58] <jmkasunich> if no OS will install on that computer, maybe its not a good choice?
[23:40:14] <cxix> it's just a weird problem, memory shortage i would imagine.
[23:40:20] <cxix> the computer runs xp and mach3 fine
[23:40:24] <fenn> bad memory i think
[23:40:25] <alex_joni> maybe some busted memory..
[23:40:35] <cradek> run memtest overnight
[23:40:56] <cxix> i will go ahead and re-install ubuntu real quick
[23:40:58] <fenn> and take the computer apart and blow all the dirt and dust out
[23:41:01] <cradek> hardware is so plentiful and cheap it's silly to waste time on bad hardware
[23:41:09] <cradek> could be a heat problem (fan)
[23:41:16] <jmkasunich> cxix: you just said "no operating system will instal on that computer - they all freeze", and then two minutes later you said "the computer runs xp and mach3 fine" - so which is it?
[23:41:28] <fenn> jmkasunich: simple, XP isn't an operating system :)
[23:41:32] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: installed on a different PC, then moved the HDD over
[23:41:35] <cxix> the hard drive is fine.
[23:41:42] <cxix> what alex said, yeah.
[23:41:54] <alex_joni> although that's quite bad for XP usually
[23:41:58] <cxix> well, i use to be more of a fan of linux, until i try to use it for something
[23:41:59] <cradek> trying more operating systems is not the answer here - fixing or getting new hardware is
[23:42:09] <jmkasunich> cradek is right
[23:42:24] <cxix> cradek - so, why does the keyboard work off the live cd, and not when i install the os?
[23:42:27] <cradek> starting a flame/troll war is also not the answer
[23:42:45] <cradek> cxix: sorry, I decline to magically remotely troubleshoot your hardware
[23:43:06] <cxix> good call, very helpful.
[23:43:33] <Roguish> if i modify 5axisgui.py, do i have to re-compile?
[23:43:38] <dave_1> not that it will help but do you have a second video card?
[23:43:40] <jmkasunich> cxix: first, you are going off on a tangent when you say "the keyboard doesn't work" - from what we know, it sounds like the entire computer is locking up
[23:43:42] <cradek> really, try memtest if you can boot the live cd that far (it's on the menu)
[23:44:08] <jepler> Roguish: yes, "make" copies the script to the bin/ directory. otherwise, your modifications won't be used.
[23:44:16] <dave_1> how does the machine do on latency?
[23:44:26] <Roguish> thanks.
[23:44:35] <alex_joni> Roguish: you can also just change the 5axisui from bin/ .. but a subsequent make will overwrite it
[23:44:45] <alex_joni> (and you don't get the nice spellchecking like with make)
[23:44:48] <cxix> the computer does not lock up, i can move the mouse, the cursor blinks, i can choose those options like "language" with the mouse, it just will not accept keystrokes
[23:45:18] <dave_1> is your video card on board?
[23:45:21] <Roguish> i don't mind recompiling. i just did not know.
[23:45:33] <cxix> dave - me?
[23:45:40] <dave_1> yes sorry
[23:45:48] <jmkasunich> so why didn't you tell us that back when alex said: "cxix: that sounds like it locks up"
[23:45:53] <cxix> yes it is
[23:46:01] <dave_1> not good
[23:46:06] <Roguish> i want to convert 5axisgui down to a small inch system.
[23:46:14] <cxix> jm - i was typing, i apologize, i missed that
[23:46:23] <cxix> dave - i have another video card i could use
[23:46:52] <dave_1> cxix ... I just went thru that with a M6VLR ... nothing but problems using on board video....
[23:47:02] <jmkasunich> cxix: understood, it happens - but it tends to lead us down the wrong path
[23:47:22] <cxix> dave - the keyboard issue as well? i can get the monitor working by reconfiguring it, but they keyboard has issues
[23:48:03] <jmkasunich> dinnertime here, bbl
[23:48:18] <cxix> so, when i run (sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg) it gives me options for all these keyboards, the one it uses automatically is pc104 - should it be something different?
[23:48:22] <alex_joni> cxix: maybe you need to look at /etc/X11/Xorg.conf (especially the Input sections regarding keyboard)
[23:48:24] <dave_1> cxix ... yes I had keyboard issues ... and mouse issues ... finally I just gave up and swapped MB's as I couldn't find a video card that would install with 6.06
[23:48:39] <cxix> huh..
[23:49:00] <cxix> alex- i'll give that a shot, it'll be about another 5-10 mins before it finishes installing
[23:49:37] <cxix> thats one plus for linux - it installs much faster than windows.
[23:49:59] <alex_joni> and 6.06 is a bit old.. the newer ones should be a bit better :)
[23:51:00] <dave_1> maybe I have the number wrong ... what ever the latest Live used
[23:51:38] <cxix> if nothing else, if i can get the keyboard and monitor to both work on the server, i'll just swap the hard drives and use the slower computer for my server
[23:51:42] <cxix> and upgrade later
[23:52:20] <dave_1> I'm going to go play with hardware ... bbl
[23:54:44] <alex_joni> dave_1: 6.06 is the latest we have with emc2 on it
[23:56:57] <cxix> ok, so the keyboard works using the server