you only need one of those, so we're down to 4 power-related things now:
or 5 if the computer is powered from the control box
never considered that
1) the breakout board / charge pump / control supply
ok - leave it for later
it's a catch-22 when you want the computer to power things but the same things are supposed to power the computer - takes a little thought
so, the main power switch should probably just turn on the control supply and the breakout board
I only have 15A potential in the box, could be relay, but then I have to muck with another relay to kick on the PC
nah - leave it
ok, 2 is motor power
3 is spindle
4 is vacuum (or any other accessories)
the good thing about box powering the pc is star earthing
By Master On, I mean a physical switch/breaker. Then there will be a (on)(off)
So, even if I bypass chargepump when computer is off but want DustVac manual on, I can still hit BRB if needed
ok, I see
so master breaker, then latching power circuit with e-stop
the breakout board / control supply should probably be left on even in e-stop
but that bears thinking about
I'd rather dump both if in estop
I have a 100W 8 ohms resistor
well, consider that EMC will still be receiving "data" from the BOB - if that gets shut down, ???
I lost ya on the last part.... what is BOB gonna send to emc?
and dont say a BP either =)
no - the breakout would be sending things like switch settings, home/limits (if you have them), estop, etc.
if you de-power the board, what does EMC get?
SWPadnos: Ok, so the BOB can be on a separate leg
I'd just leave control logic on I think
SWPadnos: Ok, so still dump everything connected to a motor - Stepper PS, Spindle, and DusVac.
should a dell E153FPT work with linux?
its a touch screen.
basically, the master power switch should turn on the controls and indicators, and allow you to turn on the e-stop contactor
if you don't leave control power on, you have to use a 115VAC coil contactor, and the buttons have 115 on them
(or 120 - YMMV :) )
heh - YVMV, your voltage may vary
SWPadnos: Yeah, now I just have to figure out how to toss in two legs into the BRB, due to to the way I'd prefer it
no, you only need one for the BRB
the only thing that switch needs to do is go across the output contact (on the big contactor) that would keep the coil fed
SWPadnos: Remeber, manual dusvac with PC off (no chargepump)
when you need more legs to be switched, you add more contacts to the relay, not the BRB or start buttons
so you get a 2-pole contactor, or a 4-pole contactor, not a 4-pole switc
SWPadnos: dmanit I'm being cheap (relay or switch) and you keep spending my money (saying contactors - as in PLURAL)
hey - it's not *my*money ;)
The other thing, is ther's only so much room in the chassis I'll be using.
I have a bunch of 24V contactors, from little auxiliary ones to a big one meant for ~30HP motors
I can bring a few if you like
SWPadnos: do you know the coil draw on them by chance?
I can check, but I'm sure it's different for the various output power ratings
SWPadnos: and are they AC or DC ?
damn, back to the DC again =(
yes, of course
I don't think there's any reason to run the *controls* on AC
SWPadnos: Finding 24VDC PS is not easy.
yes it is - how many do you need?
ok - one sec ;)
is that 1 per stepper?
archivist: No, I have 48VDC PS for those.
how come you need multiple 24v then
One for each controlled plus a spare.
building 3 machines?
[00:23:54] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/SIEMENS-SITOP-MODULAR-24V-POWER-SUPPLY-6EP1333-3BA00_W0QQitemZ150203730595QQihZ005QQcategoryZ11772QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
that thing is huge and already has a bid on it.
Besides, why DC, I thought AC was nicer on contacts and such?
well, you shouldn't use high voltage all over the place - it's less safe than using a low control voltage
I want to be able to REPLACE something easily if needed for something that's difficult to come across.
SWPadnos: No, no, I get that, I'm thinking the RS xfmr at 25.4VAC
I think I had a hard time finding 24VAC coils
contactors/relays, that is
good night all
[00:29:32] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/24V-DC-6A-145W-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply_W0QQitemZ350013788019QQihZ022QQcategoryZ58286QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
SWPadnos: I was even thinking of a RS 13.8DC PS and gutting it, but it looks like they dont sell them anymore either.
or I couldn't find em on their website anymore
it looks like the coils on my contactors range from ~100mA to ~350mA
@ 24VDC ?
SWPadnos: do they work on 24VAC by chance?
they're labelled DC, so I bet not
even that isn't important when deciding how to wire things
SWPadnos: Know of any place that has regulator boards?
a power supply has two wires in and two wires out - the rest of the circuit is the smae
not really - maybe Antek
SWPadnos: You know, that's the one thing I have yet to ever see... just the stuffed PCB for power supplies, you provide the xfmr
also, PMDX has that as part of the PMDX-mumble
I think - I know Steve was talking about that
I mena tin general. you have aproj that need 5v, you get the board at the rated amperage
sure - Antek sells their regulator boards separate from the transformers, I think
they have 5V, 12V, and possibly 24V
hmmm - no, not them
you mena antec?
not the PC case manufacturer, the other letter
yeah - that second link
hmmm. maybe they don't sell those. they may just be options for their toroids
lowest I see is 30V
click the transformers link instead
but anyway - they don't seem to have what I thought
[00:52:37] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/24V-DC-6A-145W-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply_W0QQitemZ350013788019QQihZ022QQcategoryZ58286QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
$22, 24V/6A, small enough
but again, it doesn't matter whether the coils/lamps are AC or DC - as long as they're all the same (for a given region of the system)
SWPadnos: That's not my concerne as much as logisitics is - I need to be able to get replacement parts fairly easily if need, or chep enough to have spares on hand.
well, if you're building two machines, you can make one or the other work immediately, and repair the broken one "soon"
even if you have no spares
if you're talking about having a business where you must keep the machines running, then you'd be a fool to look at a #20 power supply and not think you can get a spare (IMO :) )
err - $20
or two or three
ok - so the shipping is $12, making it almost $35 each - that's still a good deal
anyway - here's a way of thinking about the control box - think of it as "power zones"
you have various modes of operation (off, master power on, machine on, auto/manual/off/on ...), and various things that get powered in different modes
make a grid of modes vs. things that get powered in those modes
(use a spreadsheet or something)
that will give you a good picture of how many switches, relays, and power supplies you need
hmmm - -I guess it is just morning for you :)
kinda dark still
yeah - should be around 01:00-ish (right?)
thats not morning....
* shaz90 despairs of open office
I like openoffice.
work bought me a legit copy of MSO 07... and I still use oo.o
shaz90: why you using open office if you dont like it?
trying to avoid going down the foxpro route
openoffice write is great
openoffice base seems ..
underdocumented, no where to seek advice/help
foxpro? isnt that a database? have you tried abiword?
abiword, thought that was a word processor thing?
how will that connect ot a database?
what does openoffice have to do with databases?
I don't think fenn realized that you were doing database stuff
fenn: oo has a database, just like MS office
openoffice base ...
MS calls it access
I so wanted this to work nicely,
oh well, maybe there is a book :)
and just like MS, word processor and spreadsheet users outnumber database users about 100:1
foxpro was pre access
foxpro is .. awful
fine in single user mode
terrible over a network
oo base + mysql seemd like a grat plan
yes - we had an accounting software running foxpro.. SBT. it sucked
gui for databse just seems like a bad idea
well, its either use a GUI are train the secretary to enter new orders by composing SQL statements in notepad
the openoffice channel is SO dead ... already got 10 times the response here
that's because it's not real free software
doubt that makes any difference
or rather, free from the ground up
looks like all the effort ha gone into oo writer, and oo base is sort of "just there so we can say we got one"
i've noticed that projects that are free from the beginning are much more accessible than when some company just decides to put it out there
* shaz90 shrugs
ooo has a large and active community
well, apparently not
any other suggestions then for an open source gui front end to a db?
i've used phpmyadmin a little..
doing a synaptic search, I ran across "gambas"
its a basic with GUI and mysql hooks
well, that's a little different
qt has mysql hooks too
gambas is basically an open-source visual basic
"MySQL Navigator is a MySQL database server GUI client program."
"Official GUI tool to query MySQL database
MySQL Query Browser is a visual database query tool with a syntax
highlighing SQL editor. The result tables of may be edited
before changes are commited to the database"
* shaz90 goes to look
I don't know squat about databases or any of those packages
they sound like sql query tools
but whenever I'm looking for a program to do something, I open synaptic and do a search
but, i'll look
i think its strange that spreadsheets arent more integrated with databases
since essentially that's what they are
the OO database frontend is rumored to be pretty good, once you set u pthe data sources correctly
i have the db set up ok
but, it seems to be lacking a lot of functionality
enough to make it not useful anyway
[02:15:40] <JymmmEMC> http://www.heidisql.com/
[02:16:04] <JymmmEMC> http://www.heidisql.com/screenshots.php
thta would scare the crap out of the secretary for sure
better than cli
might have to be <spit> ms access at this rate
You cna connect to a MySQL db via ODBC driver in MS-Access or even excell.
set up mysql as an odbc source on the machine,
use access as the fornt end?
access or excell - depends if she just needs to make RO querys or manipliate the data
that would work
I hope the db is backed up hourly =)
JymmmEMC, youve had many crazy, loony, totally barking ideas over the years on here, but that one is actually good, thnaks.
shaz90: It's what I do for a living.
it says here "caretaker" ...
* shaz90 scrubs it out
it should say "village idiot"
because that's usually how I feel when I get obnoxious customers
or use a cattle prod
Can't avoid them, dogging usually works
I haven't even started the new jon yet and boss already has a project for me =)
finisehd that router yet?
gotaa draw up the electrical for the new controller
will a remote MySQL odbc source be a system DSN or user DSN?
by hand =(
make it a system DSN
[02:25:27] <JymmmEMC> http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/connector/odbc/3.51.html
though, I haven't tried that one myself.
[02:26:09] <JymmmEMC> http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/connector/odbc/5.1.html
I dont know the diff between those
I suspect the latter works with MysQL 5.0 and above
Those are jsut the links that came up when I googled "mysql odbc"
i never thought of using Access with MySQL as a backend via odbc before
I admire your immensley
is that enough yet?
yay! .. succesfully connected via MS Access
go use mysql.
he is using mysql
well this is cute. the new version of acpi thinks i'm pressing the sleep button, so it shuts down five seconds after it turns on
setp acpi-sleep-button-in-onvert true
err - invert
shaz90: the last comment would have been suficient
shaz90: shaz90: yay! .. succesfully connected via MS Access
this 4 stepper face simul8r is interesting (tho way overpriced) .http://www.robotshop.ca/home/on-sale/robodyssey-esra-kit.html
it's like kismet http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/sociable/baby-bits.htm
and some tts apps actually print the lip position for every phoneme, so the desired pose for each motor is known.
SWPadnos: Relays I already have: W389CX-7 on page 8 (389 series) http://www.magnecraft.com/library/archive/104_Section1.pdf
SWPadnos: Page 36 for contact rating chart
Is anything there?
anyone use gentoo w/ emc
generally speaking ...
use the ubuntu distro thing
its possible to use other linuxes, yes, but the pain is not usually worth it
I like the simplicity of this... Blown fuse (bulb?) indicator circuit... http://www.electronicsforu.com/efylinux/circuit/sep2000/cir2.htm
JymmmEMC: Yup. Pretty simple. One nice thing is that the LED is either red or green. That means we can detect a failure when neither color is displayed.
That principle could be used for every state display. For instance one light for auto; another for manual. If neither is displayed, it is a failure.
lerman: it actualy glows red when the fuse is blown
Yes. And green when the fuse is not blown.
Hell, even I have 1n4001 diodes around here =)
I know they said 4007, still =)
Why is there no diode in series with LED2 (green)? And why two diodes in series with LED2?
Under normal conditions (when fuse is alright), voltage drop in first arm is 2V + (2 x 0.7V) = 3.4V, whereas in second arm it is only 2V. So current flows through the second arm, i.e. through the green LED, causing it to glow; whereas the red LED remains off.
Never mind. I got it.
Yeah, I wouldn't have thought of that - but make sense.
One downside of the circuit is that you are running 220vac to the LEDs. I don't like the idea of running that to my little LEDs.
Of course, you could use big LED housings... with crimp on terminals or screw terminals. But they cost big bucks.
100K is a big drop, as long as it doens't short across anything
Instead, for a few extra parts, you could use a similar circuit with opto-isolators and then have you LEDs at low voltage.
(Or feed the optos to the computer and let it display the status of the fuses.)
That's the right idea.
Hmmm by this diagram the DC lamps can be used by AC too, but the AC is AC ONLY http://www.pioneerbreaker.com/part_images/PLl-22NCSPECS.jpg
ah < 220
On my gf's car I have a headlight warning buzzer I installed in the fusebox... If the lights are on, but the ignition is off, is sounds. It connects to the POSITIVE side of both. When IGN is off, that completes the gnd path thru the bulb's gnd (iirc). Could the same be done in an AC circuit?
I ask because I have a switch on/off/on and I'd like to use a lamp to indicate the OFF position if possible.
Gawd, I'm drain bamaged this morning... If you wanted an A/B switch (A or B but not both), would this configuration be right.... I N/C and 1 N/O contact? http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-22MM-SELECTOR-SWITCH-2-POSITION-MAINTAINED-1NO-1NC_W0QQitemZ150189226646QQihZ005QQcategoryZ58166QQcmdZViewItem
who wants a tesla turbine book ?
hot off the scanner
[16:48:42] <Unit41> http://rapidshare.com/files/83509484/TTDiskTurbine.tar.gz.html
not my scanner a friend of mine's
exactly that dear watson
Tesla, as in coil + turbine?
he invented the sparkplug too
and the first diode and resistors
he was so sane he was crazy
Tesla was the daVinci of the electron!!!
diode and resistors eh
yea the one way valvular conduit was the first mechanical diode
other than a check valve
except the word 'diode' means it has TWO ELECTRODES YOU FUCKING MORON
diode was a term first applied to a particular type of flap valve in a steam locomotive
fenn: You should go out for politics
shaz90: please attempt to source your inaccurate statement.. go ahead
wait a minnit
shaz90 == robin?
* fenn goes back to his troll-free basement
Are most industrial controls break-before-make?
JymmmEMC: you mean industrial pushbuttons?
jmkasunich: primarily switches
almost always the NC contact opens before the NO contact closes
you can usually get late open NC or early close NO, but those are only used for special situations
ok, cool. I want to have a MANUAL/AUTO MODE switch, but I originally couldn't figure out how to setup a safety factor into it (user forgets what mode it's in). But what I think I'll do is setup the mode switch in such a way that you have to hit "SYSTEM ON" button every time you switch between modes.
any drawbacks that you could think of?
you could also use a three position switch, MANUAL/OFF/AUTO
thats rather common in industry
I have those for each item to be controlled, but I wanted to add a safety factor into it - user error sorta thing.
are you making a machine to sell, or for your own use?
a lil of each
selling things gets you into deep water fast
as a semi-assmebled kit
you cannot possibly prevent a true idiot from hurting himself no matter what you do
so the best you can do is prove to the court that you did the best you can
I do realize that, but the idiot I'm most concerned about is me =)
"the best you can" in court is NOT based on asking people - its based on complying with industry standard and rules
get a high quality switch, not that junk of unknown provenance that you keep posting links to
eric_U: what does that have to do with the way I'm talking about using it?
you don't know how it will work
hint: parts from ebay is not a business plan - if you expect to sell multiple units of something, you need to be able to get the parts on a continuing basis
It could be $2000 switch, how it's use it what matters.
jmkasunich: No, this is a one-off thing.
SWPadnos is right - both matter
for one extra unit, you don't need to worry so much about replacement parts
* shaz90 does a quick calculation
Ok, back to my original question.... any drawbacks?
ok, so lets see ...
inventing some rube golberg "safety" system to protect against a switch failure, when reliable industry accepted switches are available, is NOT the way to get safety
however, using industry-standard parts makes it easier for the one customer to get replacements from places like eBay
lets assume JymmmEMC can learn from experience,
lets assume the 2nd machine only takes 80% of the time to build as the first one
JymmmEMC, drawbacks to requiring system-on press every time you switch to AUTO?
based on current progress, id say ..
some time in 2083 looks likely
you guys are mean
SWPadnos: something like that yes. A "RUN MODE" switch.
ok - the main drawback I see is that I'm not sure how you'd actually implement that
you have several things you want to operate that way, what you're suggesting would basically require a latching start/stop arrangement for each item, downstream of the OFF/AUTO/MANUAL switch
its a bit like lightguards on big machines I guess
so you'd have several start/stop buttons (more like enable/disable in this case), plus the main contactor, plus the e-stop latching relay, plus several mode switches
any lightguard beign tripped means an estop
unless there's a simpler way of doing it (which I haven't thought of, BC), you'll run out of space pretty fast
then you have to go around the machine, check it is clear of people, reset each lightguard
SWPadnos: No, only latching on the runmode sw, the rest would be ON/OFF/AUTO
JymmmEMC: my personal preference is to separate safety from function
sure, but if you want to require a "system start" action after swtiching to AUTO, then you need something like the latching estop relay setup for each item
* shaz90 nods
why do you have ON/OFF/AUTO switches on every item? do that in software
the safety chain would kill main power, that will kill everything else
jmkasunich, the idea is that you could use the vacuum to clean the machine, without the PC being on
jmkasunich: I NEVER trust software.
jmkasunich: dont forget, most codes mandate the estop circuit cannot be in software
hello, what did I just say?
so you have an ON/OFF/AUTO switch that lets you turn on the vacuum
separete function from sw
* shaz90 nods
"the safety chain would kill main power"
jmkasunich: No computer connected == manual mode.
the safety chain would not include softweare, or course
JymmmEMC: do what you want - you asked for advice, I gave it
I see very little benefit in having a "computer off" mode
JymmmEMC, I think you're trying to protect someone from the PC doing bad things while the system is in auto mode - that is inherently impossible
anyway, this is all by the by, as the chnaces of JymmmEMC actually doing this are zero
I took the handwheels off of my machine - if I want "manual" mode, I run the PC and use MDI or jogs
* shaz90 nods
doors open = estop
jmkasunich, this isn't about running the motors with the PC off - it's about aux things like vacuum
and possibly spindle (though I don't see why that would be needed without axis motors)
unless he intends to stick the vacuum in his mouth and suck out his tonsils, I'd consider it a "safe" thing
heh - I was thinking the same thing, albeit not in such graphic terms ;)
again, vacuum, lube, mist, flood, all should be pc ontrolled, if you want em on just type M<xx> or G9 or whatver
so have a relay controlled outlet, with a switch to bypass the relay for "manual" mode
SWPadnos: The idea of what I'm tlaking about here, is not realizing that I left spindle in MANUAL mode (as example) kick POWER ON and it starts up. If I have to hit a latching button to switch between run modes, it'll always reset to a safe mode even if I dont realize what position the switch is in.
or assign a button on the screen to do it
or assign a button on a keypad
JymmmEMC, OK - I can see that. I just don't know how to do it in switch/relay hardware
JymmmEMC: thats why we're recommending that you SHOULD NOT HAVE a manual mode for the spindle
provifing hardware swtiching seems and expensive and needless waste
your start button means nothing
JymmmEMC, that's something to consider - do you really need to run the spindle while the PC is off, considering that you won't be able to move the axes
SWPadnos: I have, just can't draw it up in ASCII to explain
and .. since you dont see it on mainstream controls, you can make a few assumptions
all that means is that instead of the spindle staring unexpectedly when you switch from AUTO to MANUAL, it will start unexpectedly when you push the button
and trust me, if you use the machine much, pushing the button after a mode switch will become habit, to the point where you do it automatically without thinking
and in anycase, assuming your estop chain includes the doors onthe machine being closed, does it even matter if it starts "unexpectedly"
if the only way to start the spindle is from the PC, that is safer than having multiple "modes"
* shaz90 nods
as before - it is a given that the master cutoff is in hardware
Ok, maybe I don't need ON/OFF/AUTO for spindle, but could be in parallel to lube pump. And then have spindle to AUTO/OFF instead.
but this is JymmmEMC we are talking about, industry standard practice means noting here
I predict broken tooling in Jymm's future
there is an interesting thread on CNCZone about estop
umm - can we stop the personal attacke please?
jmkasunich: you have more confidence that he will actually get it moving than me then
attacks, that is
if you can turn the spindle to "OFF" and then run a program, you _will_ break tools, because you'll leave it OFF when you try to run a program
some of the estop schemes in use are fairly dangerous
jmkasunich: If I want to "dry run" a program, I don't need the spindle running.
oh, ok, fair enough
JymmmEMC, then you switch it to "OFF"
or unplug the router
SWPadnos: I know, but jmkasunich was balking at the idea of a spinfle OFF sw
JymmmEMC: to each his own
I think he was responding to the idea of the spindle coming on by itself
I wouldn't do it, but if you see an operational need, by all means do
which it will, at some point, in any off/auto scheme
SWPadnos: no, I was suggesting that a manual override of the spindle control (of any kind) has issues
sure - there will be surprises with any scheme
manually forcing the spindle off is safe for the operator at least (unless he gets hit by the flying tool after it breaks when it hits the work while not turning)
enough of this ... I shall come back to see the next thrilling (but no doubt remarkably similar episode) in a year or so
shaz90 sounds remarkably like robin_sz
jmkasunich: If it's any conselation (sp), I plan on having idiot lights as well. So at a glance you cna see if it's in AUTO/MANUAL mode at any given time.
All I was originally asking if anyone could see a drawback in switching run mode from MANUAL/AUTO, since power to certain things will be removed during the transition between the two modes.
what is "manual" mode
toastydeath: No PC running (bypassing chargpump) = manual.
JymmmEMC: what's the point of 'manual mode' again?
fenn: Example... to use dustvac for cleanup, or to enable lube pump for flsuhing system, etc
JymmmEMC, have you thought about making a chart of operational modes and what gets powered in which mode?
SWPadnos: Yes, that's where these questions are coming from.
ok - then you should have the answers on that sheet ;)
is it a spreadsheet you can email?
SWPadnos: I never said it was complete =)
SWPadnos: Yeah it is... graphite and wood pulp
oh, I'll take a look on Thursday :)
remember - I'm planning on another trip in Feb/Mar, so let's not worry about getting everything done this week
there I just got a scanned copy of poor mans c02 laser plans
Unit41: now, THAT I'll take =)
[18:02:41] <Unit41> http://rapidshare.com/files/83525871/PoorMansC02Laser.tar.gz.html
Unit41: Instead of using rapidshare, try zshare.net up to 100MB no waiting
Unit41: wth ext is djvu ?
nm, got it
good night all
vericad for linux is a free download...
dmess: vericad's site shows a 30 day demo for download, did you find something else? https://www.varicad.com/3dcaddownload.phtml
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-01-13.txt
archivist eh wot! /me is not a bot
no thats what i was on about...
heh i thought you were a bot too
I be on my nooo installed emc
dangit...rapidshare is blocked off to me
I wanted to look at that co2 laser thing
^Fritz: No you dont, you can buy the parts assembled cheaper than it would to build from scratch
I just wanted to look at it
I hates collets, I hates them I do
the infamous creeping endmill has struck
jmkasunich: ended up deeper than it started?
fortunately it didn't ruin the part, but it turned a two (or maybe three) pass roughing cut itot what seemed to take hours
wrap paper around shank for sloppy collet ;)
tomp: I should try that
not good technique, just get it done technique
I had to go 0.8" deep with a 1/2" mill, figured I'd do 0.3" passes
shim stock is better
if you can fit paper in there, a better approach is to throw away the collet
the first pass was about 0.7" deep when the spindle VFD shut down on overload
5V collets are rare as hens teeth
china is making them
oh, thats right
what I really want to do is replace the spindle with something that takes R8
^Fritz: But, in case you are feeling sadistic... http://www.zshare.net/download/6480297930957a/
then I can use cheap tooling, including the TTS stuff that I'm gradually amassing for the shoptask
sadistic, or masochistic?
d) all the above
what was really frustrating is the the VN (and the cutter) were perfectly happy hogging out metal, but I had to drop to 0.1" DOC and weenie feed to keep the tool in place
jmk: anything can be had...but 1) find it first and 2) afford it when you do
it was even squeaking cause I wasn't giving it the feed it wanted
^Fritz: if you're talking about an R8 spindle - I'll have to make that
^Fritz: you might wnat to grab it, as the link is time limited.
what kind of collet is it?
Van Norman, 5V
huh.. not heard of that :)
van norman had thier own standard?
here's a drawing of the collet: http://jmkasunich.com/vannorman/VN_Spindle.htm
ah - 5c esk
and here's a drawing of the spindle I made some years ago, with an eye towards making a new one in R8: http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/_2002_retired_files/SPINDLE.gif
pg35 & 36 - what would those contacts be rated for inductive wise?
DPDT 12VDC coil
thats a fricking 58 page document
you expect me to read it all?
jmkasunich: No, the info is on pg 35 & 36
there is a whole table of contact ratings
can't you figure it out?
jmkasunich: Right, but I don't understand what the amperage rating would be.
how the fsck am I supposed to know what your fscking load needs?
On the realy itself, it says 25a @ 300VAC
the actual rating depends on the nature of the load
they list 'inductive rating' of a contact? maybe your coil containing device and wiring have some inductance but not the contact
there is an astonishingly complete table on page 36, all you need to do is read and comprehend
they have ratings for resistive, ballast, motor, pilot duty (means pulling in other relays/contactors), and DC, for different voltages
Like I mentioned, I know amps, then mention hp.
WTF is you FSCKING LOAD?
per it's specs in the manual
motors aren't rated in amps, they're rated in HP
is this a router motor, with brushes and all that crap? or a real motor (induction)?
a simple "yes" would suffice
It says 12A, as does the manual. The "stated" HP doens't match up is seems.
of course not, its a consumer item, those are salesman horses
the relay is rated 1HP at 120V motor duty
1HP is 746 watts
I understand that, that's why I asked as I've measured 12A peak.
a typical real motor has a power factor of about 0.8, so a real 1HP motor would draw about 746/0.8 = 933 VA, at 120V that is 933/120 = 7.77A
so, the relay isn't big enough for your 12A motor
jmkasunich: would you consider this router having a "real motor" ?
I'm being sarcastic - I don't consider motors with brushes real motors
run that router for 1000 hours and see what is left
if it lasts that long
any chance that collet draw nut slipped? its got near .7" of grab length, did it feel tight after the tool moved?
at 1000 hours, a proper industrial induction motor is just getting broken in
tomp: its a draw tube
it didn't slip, it just wasn't tight enough
jmkasunich: is the PF of .8 kinda avg? or on the safe side?
its kind of average
it doesn't matter, 7.77 is less than 12 by a large margin
get a real contactor and be done with it
ok, about the same for a brush motor too?
brush motors I have no idea what the power factor is
and I don't really care
they're not real motors
ah, ok. The whole PF thing is foreighn to me is why I asked.
power factor = real watts divided by apparent watts (aka VA)
12A * 120V = 1440 VA for your router
jmkasunich: that Ik know, but like the PF of a xmfr, motor, etc
since one HP is 746 watts, 1440VA with a perfect 1.0 power factor, and perfect effieciency, would give you 1440/746 =1.932 HP
so obviously the 2.25HP is a lie
yeah, that I gathered.
[21:57:58] <jmkasunich> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
if you can't fiture it out from reading that, theres no way in hell that someone on IRC can explain it
peak to peak HP :) - just like how they rate car audio amplifiers.
No, I meant I didn't know what things (xmfr, motor, etc) have what certain PF's (on avg).
transformers aren't usually rated in terms of PF
they reflect the loads pf
I had to learn and PF in respect to VA -vs- A in respect to UPS's
their magnetising current is low enough to ignore, I'm guessing that at full load the power factor is better than 0.95 (assuming a load PF of 1.0)
motors draw non-negligable magnetising current, thats why the PF is less than unity
(magnetising current lags the voltage by 90 degrees and conveys no real power)
Lets save teh current leads/lags voltage for another decade - that one I dont understand at all and need todo soemreading on.
fine by me
The closest thing I know about 3Ph, is that if the motor is turning the wrong way, flip any two pairs.
the basic point of PF is that the amps drawn by an inductive load (especially a motor) will be more than the amps you get if you simply divide watts by volts
Nope. Flip any two wires -- that would be one pair.
lerman: btw, thanks for O-words
And proud of it. I'm a programmer after all. :-)
You are quite welcome.
I've only recently got my machine running and started writing g-code, and they are very handy
I like the fact that you can do indirect calls like "O#100 call"
Well, the grammar is really terrible, but it was easy to implement.
Yup, that's neat. And more or less free.
I was able to write a sub that follows an outline, then write another sub that takes the first sub as an arg, and does both roughing passes (some distance outside the path, deeper each pass) and then finish passes (full depth, work in toward the line)
jmkasunich, (sorry to bug you but ...) on that relay spec sheet, what are the "VA Rating Make" and "VA Rating Break" ratings?
I'd think that those are the max power (VA) that the relay can safely turn on and off, respectively
I closed the document, so I'm just guessing here
The *scary* thing about o-words is that you can't just test the program, because how it runs can depend on external things.
ok - far short of the 15/20/25/30A ratings :)
Such as probing, tool tables, etc.
SWPadnos: if you are using it do do something like pull in a large contactor, the current needed to close the contactor will be much higher than the current needed to keep it closed
SWPadnos, yes they cheat and give resistive load ratings
ok - I figured that asymmetry was due to pull/release coils
err - coil ratings
usually a contactor catalog will have closing (or inrush) coil VA requirements as well as holding VA, so you'd compare the requirements of the load contactor coil against the driver relay's contact ratings
oh - those VA ratings were in the contacts section, not the coul section
arcing accross contacts
Consider the case where a relay is used to reverse direction, and another one is used to actually turn the power on and off.
so they could be for driving a coil (pilot duty as you said)
In that case the direction relay would be switching "dry". There would be no switching current.
right - load coil VA requirements need to be less than drive contact ratings
well, I gotta run - thanks for the info
I've used some contactors at work with 3KVA inrush, and only a couple hundred VA holding
600A three pole contactor - when it closes, you know it.... THUNK!
well, back out in the cold - gotta finish milling my t-slot
* archivist is testing repeatability
jmkasunich: what are you making this timme?
how do I debug a joint 3 following error
it means your step rate cannot keep up with the max velocity you requested
err is this steppers?
ok then that's true
if you set a stepgen max velocity (a little above the max velocity you want) you'll get a nicer error message
cradek: steady rest (and other thing) bases
they will clamp to the dovetails on the shoptask bed and be the same height, with the same t-slot (only one slot tho) as the table
then I can make a piece that mounts on the base to support a part I'm turning, or whatever
sounds very useful
I have this weird idea for putting one on each side of the table, with a bridge between them
then putting a small high-speed spindle on the bridge, so I can do fine work without rediculous tool extensions and with much more rigidity
that sounds very neat
any plans for Z on the small spindle?
my brother just called asking how to support 8 sided rifle barrel in lathe, I said 4 jaw, then he asked how to support the other end ( now hanging out rear of headstock ) any suggestions?
the whole small spindle idea is nebulous right now
but I'm thinking of just running a rod up to the main spindle, and using its Z
(motor not runnong)
the bridge would have a short vertical slide and would handle side loads
the main millhead would handle vertical loads and provide Z movement
tomp: depends on how long the barrel is relative to the headstock, and how fast he wants to go
it sounded long & fast enuf to get whippy if unsupported, specific measures i dont know
if the spindle is long and speeds are low, all he might need is a custom turned bushing to go over the barrel and seat in the end of the spindle
yeah we talked of a button for a steady rest with oct in it
no rear overhang that way, all forward
just make the button round, barely big enough to go over the corners, and put 4 or eight soft tipped setscrews in it
that way you can center up as if it was a four-jaw
yeah we talked of a tiny '4 jaw' at the steady rest using 4 set screws with brass bits on end
sure - the existing Z - it's obvious now that you say it
maybe just use one of those linear slides you found?
like the single large one
I've also thought about making an extension spindle that would be driven by the main one (no speed increase, just length)
and have a bearing, mounted on a short vertical slide, on the bridge
but you need the speed more than anything else
(for small stuff)
so my choices are a small fast motor driving a spindle, or take rotation and Z from the main spindle, and use a belt to step up to the fast one
a single belt won't get you more than 3:1
a 3/8 drill rid going up to a collet in the main spindle could drive a large pulley and transfer Z travel
3:1 would only get me about 5000 rpm
you want 20k for pcbs
probalby want 15000 or so, depending on how small the tools are
so electric of some sort
can your machine move 20ipm?
electric or air
then maybe you want 30k
you can't go too fast
I wonder if HF makes a dremel or foredom clone that could provide a suitable motor and maybe spindle parts?
(pretty sure they do make a foredom clone, dunno price)
[23:28:36] <jmkasunich> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40432
15000 RPM, 1/4 HP
I took my vise off after months of coolant use and the table is still perfect underneath - yay for WD40 even though people talk bad about it
interesting, I wonder what the bearings in the handheld part are like
yay for using proper coolant
and not water.
the bearings are probably so-so
well it's 95% water...
it has a small jacobs chuck, so its not really suitable for milling
but the motor is the important part
if the jacobs is screw-on, I'm sure you could do light cutting (like pcbs)
good bearings aren't too expensive if you stay small
runout on the jacobs is likely to be not-so-good
thats the main hard part of a small spindle anyway - toolholding
at least you only need one size (1/8)
I've had an idea for a number of years for a 1/8" spindle
get the brass double-cones that are used for compression fittings (they are available for 1/8" OD tubing)
make the nose look like a fitting, and have a matching nut
and compress one brass ring onto each tool you want to use
did you draw that up? I think I remember you had a drawing last time you describned this
(argh this keyboard)
I probably did, dunno where it is tho
yet another project
now that I can thread and do tapers on the lathe easily I might give that a try
after I finish the steady rest bases and steady
that's a neat idea
i wonder if the rings would hold Z repeatably
with a dab of solder they would
i dont think solder sticks to carbide very well
unless you mean silver solder
flut them both up prior ti installing acorn