#emc | Logs for 2008-01-13

[00:00:18] <SWPadnos> you only need one of those, so we're down to 4 power-related things now:
[00:00:31] <SWPadnos> or 5 if the computer is powered from the control box
[00:00:45] <JymmmEMC> never considered that
[00:00:48] <SWPadnos> 1) the breakout board / charge pump / control supply
[00:00:52] <SWPadnos> ok - leave it for later
[00:01:19] <SWPadnos> it's a catch-22 when you want the computer to power things but the same things are supposed to power the computer - takes a little thought
[00:01:29] <JymmmEMC> =)
[00:02:03] <SWPadnos> so, the main power switch should probably just turn on the control supply and the breakout board
[00:02:07] <JymmmEMC> I only have 15A potential in the box, could be relay, but then I have to muck with another relay to kick on the PC
[00:02:29] <SWPadnos> nah - leave it
[00:03:04] <SWPadnos> ok, 2 is motor power
[00:03:07] <SWPadnos> 3 is spindle
[00:03:15] <SWPadnos> 4 is vacuum (or any other accessories)
[00:03:19] <archivist> the good thing about box powering the pc is star earthing
[00:03:20] <JymmmEMC> By Master On, I mean a physical switch/breaker. Then there will be a (on)(off)
[00:04:36] <JymmmEMC> So, even if I bypass chargepump when computer is off but want DustVac manual on, I can still hit BRB if needed
[00:04:48] <SWPadnos> ok, I see
[00:05:04] <SWPadnos> so master breaker, then latching power circuit with e-stop
[00:05:10] <JymmmEMC> =)
[00:05:28] <SWPadnos> the breakout board / control supply should probably be left on even in e-stop
[00:05:33] <SWPadnos> but that bears thinking about
[00:05:55] <JymmmEMC> I'd rather dump both if in estop
[00:06:08] <JymmmEMC> I have a 100W 8 ohms resistor
[00:06:14] <SWPadnos> well, consider that EMC will still be receiving "data" from the BOB - if that gets shut down, ???
[00:07:07] <JymmmEMC> I lost ya on the last part.... what is BOB gonna send to emc?
[00:08:01] <JymmmEMC> and dont say a BP either =)
[00:08:47] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:09:13] <SWPadnos> no - the breakout would be sending things like switch settings, home/limits (if you have them), estop, etc.
[00:09:25] <SWPadnos> if you de-power the board, what does EMC get?
[00:09:49] <a-l-p-h-a> wuzzup?
[00:10:15] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Ok, so the BOB can be on a separate leg
[00:10:36] <JymmmEMC> hi a-l-p-h-a
[00:10:58] <SWPadnos> I'd just leave control logic on I think
[00:11:02] <SWPadnos> hi a-l-p-h-a
[00:11:50] <dmess> hi a-l-p-h-a:
[00:12:16] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Ok, so still dump everything connected to a motor - Stepper PS, Spindle, and DusVac.
[00:12:22] <SWPadnos> yep
[00:12:47] <Gamma-X2> should a dell E153FPT work with linux?
[00:12:51] <Gamma-X2> its a touch screen.
[00:12:52] <SWPadnos> basically, the master power switch should turn on the controls and indicators, and allow you to turn on the e-stop contactor
[00:13:15] <SWPadnos> if you don't leave control power on, you have to use a 115VAC coil contactor, and the buttons have 115 on them
[00:13:21] <SWPadnos> (or 120 - YMMV :) )
[00:13:38] <SWPadnos> heh - YVMV, your voltage may vary
[00:13:52] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Yeah, now I just have to figure out how to toss in two legs into the BRB, due to to the way I'd prefer it
[00:14:14] <SWPadnos> no, you only need one for the BRB
[00:14:57] <SWPadnos> the only thing that switch needs to do is go across the output contact (on the big contactor) that would keep the coil fed
[00:14:57] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Remeber, manual dusvac with PC off (no chargepump)
[00:15:25] <SWPadnos> when you need more legs to be switched, you add more contacts to the relay, not the BRB or start buttons
[00:15:49] <SWPadnos> so you get a 2-pole contactor, or a 4-pole contactor, not a 4-pole switc
[00:15:53] <SWPadnos> h
[00:16:34] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: dmanit I'm being cheap (relay or switch) and you keep spending my money (saying contactors - as in PLURAL)
[00:16:50] <SWPadnos> hey - it's not *my*money ;)
[00:17:07] <JymmmEMC> The other thing, is ther's only so much room in the chassis I'll be using.
[00:17:27] <SWPadnos> I have a bunch of 24V contactors, from little auxiliary ones to a big one meant for ~30HP motors
[00:17:37] <micges> hi
[00:17:39] <SWPadnos> I can bring a few if you like
[00:17:52] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: do you know the coil draw on them by chance?
[00:18:11] <SWPadnos> I can check, but I'm sure it's different for the various output power ratings
[00:18:16] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: and are they AC or DC ?
[00:18:20] <SWPadnos> 24VDC
[00:18:33] <JymmmEMC> damn, back to the DC again =(
[00:18:41] <SWPadnos> yes, of course
[00:18:56] <SWPadnos> I don't think there's any reason to run the *controls* on AC
[00:19:01] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Finding 24VDC PS is not easy.
[00:19:08] <SWPadnos> yes it is - how many do you need?
[00:19:39] <JymmmEMC> 3
[00:19:48] <SWPadnos> ok - one sec ;)
[00:20:33] <archivist> is that 1 per stepper?
[00:21:09] <JymmmEMC> archivist: No, I have 48VDC PS for those.
[00:22:03] <archivist> how come you need multiple 24v then
[00:22:22] <JymmmEMC> One for each controlled plus a spare.
[00:22:36] <JymmmEMC> err controller
[00:23:15] <archivist> building 3 machines?
[00:23:20] <JymmmEMC> 2
[00:23:54] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/SIEMENS-SITOP-MODULAR-24V-POWER-SUPPLY-6EP1333-3BA00_W0QQitemZ150203730595QQihZ005QQcategoryZ11772QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[00:25:21] <JymmmEMC> that thing is huge and already has a bid on it.
[00:25:48] <JymmmEMC> Besides, why DC, I thought AC was nicer on contacts and such?
[00:26:22] <SWPadnos> well, you shouldn't use high voltage all over the place - it's less safe than using a low control voltage
[00:26:28] <JymmmEMC> I want to be able to REPLACE something easily if needed for something that's difficult to come across.
[00:26:49] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: No, no, I get that, I'm thinking the RS xfmr at 25.4VAC
[00:27:20] <SWPadnos> I think I had a hard time finding 24VAC coils
[00:27:25] <SWPadnos> contactors/relays, that is
[00:28:18] <alex_joni> good night all
[00:29:32] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/24V-DC-6A-145W-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply_W0QQitemZ350013788019QQihZ022QQcategoryZ58286QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[00:29:37] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I was even thinking of a RS 13.8DC PS and gutting it, but it looks like they dont sell them anymore either.
[00:29:55] <JymmmEMC> or I couldn't find em on their website anymore
[00:37:15] <SWPadnos> it looks like the coils on my contactors range from ~100mA to ~350mA
[00:37:28] <JymmmEMC> @ 24VDC ?
[00:38:03] <SWPadnos> yes
[00:38:11] <JymmmEMC> k
[00:45:39] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: do they work on 24VAC by chance?
[00:45:52] <SWPadnos> they're labelled DC, so I bet not
[00:46:12] <SWPadnos> even that isn't important when deciding how to wire things
[00:46:23] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Know of any place that has regulator boards?
[00:46:25] <SWPadnos> a power supply has two wires in and two wires out - the rest of the circuit is the smae
[00:46:34] <SWPadnos> not really - maybe Antek
[00:47:26] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: You know, that's the one thing I have yet to ever see... just the stuffed PCB for power supplies, you provide the xfmr
[00:48:08] <SWPadnos> antek
[00:48:21] <SWPadnos> also, PMDX has that as part of the PMDX-mumble
[00:48:29] <SWPadnos> I think - I know Steve was talking about that
[00:49:07] <JymmmEMC> I mena tin general. you have aproj that need 5v, you get the board at the rated amperage
[00:49:27] <SWPadnos> sure - Antek sells their regulator boards separate from the transformers, I think
[00:49:37] <JymmmEMC> antek what?
[00:49:39] <SWPadnos> they have 5V, 12V, and possibly 24V
[00:49:45] <SWPadnos> Antek Inc
[00:49:52] <SWPadnos> www.toroid.com ?
[00:50:04] <SWPadnos> hmmm - no, not them
[00:50:14] <JymmmEMC> you mena antec?
[00:50:14] <SWPadnos> www.toroid-transformer.com ?
[00:50:27] <SWPadnos> not the PC case manufacturer, the other letter
[00:50:35] <SWPadnos> yeah - that second link
[00:51:35] <SWPadnos> hmmm. maybe they don't sell those. they may just be options for their toroids
[00:51:41] <JymmmEMC> lowest I see is 30V
[00:52:00] <SWPadnos> click the transformers link instead
[00:52:24] <SWPadnos> but anyway - they don't seem to have what I thought
[00:52:30] <JymmmEMC> k
[00:52:37] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/24V-DC-6A-145W-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply_W0QQitemZ350013788019QQihZ022QQcategoryZ58286QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[00:52:49] <SWPadnos> $22, 24V/6A, small enough
[00:54:27] <SWPadnos> but again, it doesn't matter whether the coils/lamps are AC or DC - as long as they're all the same (for a given region of the system)
[00:55:21] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: That's not my concerne as much as logisitics is - I need to be able to get replacement parts fairly easily if need, or chep enough to have spares on hand.
[00:56:14] <SWPadnos> well, if you're building two machines, you can make one or the other work immediately, and repair the broken one "soon"
[00:56:21] <SWPadnos> even if you have no spares
[00:56:56] <SWPadnos> if you're talking about having a business where you must keep the machines running, then you'd be a fool to look at a #20 power supply and not think you can get a spare (IMO :) )
[00:57:16] <JymmmEMC> #20 ?
[00:57:45] <SWPadnos> err - $20
[00:58:02] <fenn> or two or three
[00:58:26] <SWPadnos> ok - so the shipping is $12, making it almost $35 each - that's still a good deal
[00:58:47] <anonimasu> -_-
[01:05:08] <SWPadnos> anyway - here's a way of thinking about the control box - think of it as "power zones"
[01:05:46] <SWPadnos> you have various modes of operation (off, master power on, machine on, auto/manual/off/on ...), and various things that get powered in different modes
[01:05:58] <SWPadnos> make a grid of modes vs. things that get powered in those modes
[01:06:04] <SWPadnos> (use a spreadsheet or something)
[01:06:26] <SWPadnos> that will give you a good picture of how many switches, relays, and power supplies you need
[01:09:30] <shaz90> morning ;)
[01:09:49] <SWPadnos> hmmm - -I guess it is just morning for you :)
[01:22:21] <shaz90> vaguely
[01:22:26] <shaz90> kinda dark still
[01:22:57] <SWPadnos> yeah - should be around 01:00-ish (right?)
[01:24:09] <dmess> thats not morning....
[01:28:32] <shaz90> 01:28
[01:28:52] <shaz90> * shaz90 despairs of open office
[01:40:43] <a-l-p-h-a> I like openoffice.
[01:41:00] <a-l-p-h-a> work bought me a legit copy of MSO 07... and I still use oo.o
[01:41:04] <fenn> shaz90: why you using open office if you dont like it?
[01:47:14] <shaz90> trying to avoid going down the foxpro route
[01:47:27] <shaz90> openoffice write is great
[01:47:30] <shaz90> love it
[01:47:39] <shaz90> openoffice base seems ..
[01:47:47] <shaz90> hmm, awful
[01:48:18] <shaz90> underdocumented, no where to seek advice/help
[01:48:23] <shaz90> thus, useless
[01:50:50] <fenn> foxpro? isnt that a database? have you tried abiword?
[01:51:49] <shaz90> abiword, thought that was a word processor thing?
[01:52:01] <fenn> yes..
[01:52:13] <shaz90> how will that connect ot a database?
[01:52:30] <fenn> what does openoffice have to do with databases?
[01:52:32] <jmkasunich> I don't think fenn realized that you were doing database stuff
[01:52:38] <shaz90> ahh,
[01:52:39] <shaz90> yes
[01:52:42] <jmkasunich> fenn: oo has a database, just like MS office
[01:52:44] <shaz90> openoffice base ...
[01:52:47] <jmkasunich> MS calls it access
[01:52:51] <shaz90> yep
[01:53:05] <shaz90> I so wanted this to work nicely,
[01:53:30] <shaz90> oh well, maybe there is a book :)
[01:53:33] <jmkasunich> and just like MS, word processor and spreadsheet users outnumber database users about 100:1
[01:53:39] <skunkworks> foxpro was pre access
[01:53:43] <shaz90> yeah
[01:53:51] <shaz90> foxpro is .. awful
[01:54:00] <shaz90> fine in single user mode
[01:54:06] <shaz90> terrible over a network
[01:54:28] <shaz90> oo base + mysql seemd like a grat plan
[01:54:32] <shaz90> great even
[01:54:39] <skunkworks> yes - we had an accounting software running foxpro.. SBT. it sucked
[01:54:46] <fenn> gui for databse just seems like a bad idea
[01:55:31] <shaz90> well, its either use a GUI are train the secretary to enter new orders by composing SQL statements in notepad
[01:57:13] <shaz90> the openoffice channel is SO dead ... already got 10 times the response here
[01:57:30] <fenn> that's because it's not real free software
[01:58:14] <shaz90> doubt that makes any difference
[01:59:05] <fenn> or rather, free from the ground up
[01:59:28] <shaz90> looks like all the effort ha gone into oo writer, and oo base is sort of "just there so we can say we got one"
[01:59:33] <fenn> i've noticed that projects that are free from the beginning are much more accessible than when some company just decides to put it out there
[01:59:59] <shaz90> * shaz90 shrugs
[02:00:21] <shaz90> ooo has a large and active community
[02:01:52] <fenn> well, apparently not
[02:01:59] <shaz90> hmmm
[02:02:30] <shaz90> any other suggestions then for an open source gui front end to a db?
[02:02:55] <fenn> i've used phpmyadmin a little..
[02:03:51] <jmkasunich> doing a synaptic search, I ran across "gambas"
[02:04:04] <jmkasunich> its a basic with GUI and mysql hooks
[02:04:36] <fenn> well, that's a little different
[02:04:40] <fenn> qt has mysql hooks too
[02:05:12] <SWPadnos> gambas is basically an open-source visual basic
[02:05:13] <jmkasunich> "MySQL Navigator is a MySQL database server GUI client program."
[02:05:39] <jmkasunich> "Official GUI tool to query MySQL database
[02:05:39] <jmkasunich> MySQL Query Browser is a visual database query tool with a syntax
[02:05:39] <jmkasunich> highlighing SQL editor. The result tables of may be edited
[02:05:39] <jmkasunich> before changes are commited to the database"
[02:06:05] <shaz90> * shaz90 goes to look
[02:06:31] <jmkasunich> I don't know squat about databases or any of those packages
[02:06:45] <shaz90> they sound like sql query tools
[02:06:50] <jmkasunich> but whenever I'm looking for a program to do something, I open synaptic and do a search
[02:06:50] <shaz90> but, i'll look
[02:10:21] <fenn> i think its strange that spreadsheets arent more integrated with databases
[02:10:35] <fenn> since essentially that's what they are
[02:10:52] <SWPadnos> the OO database frontend is rumored to be pretty good, once you set u pthe data sources correctly
[02:13:39] <shaz90> hmmm
[02:13:44] <shaz90> i have the db set up ok
[02:14:12] <shaz90> but, it seems to be lacking a lot of functionality
[02:14:22] <shaz90> enough to make it not useful anyway
[02:15:40] <JymmmEMC> http://www.heidisql.com/
[02:16:04] <JymmmEMC> http://www.heidisql.com/screenshots.php
[02:16:09] <shaz90> yikes
[02:16:24] <shaz90> thta would scare the crap out of the secretary for sure
[02:16:42] <JymmmEMC> better than cli
[02:17:00] <shaz90> only just
[02:17:25] <shaz90> might have to be <spit> ms access at this rate
[02:17:46] <JymmmEMC> ODBC
[02:17:56] <shaz90> que?
[02:18:23] <JymmmEMC> You cna connect to a MySQL db via ODBC driver in MS-Access or even excell.
[02:18:30] <shaz90> set up mysql as an odbc source on the machine,
[02:18:37] <JymmmEMC> yep
[02:18:38] <shaz90> use access as the fornt end?
[02:18:41] <shaz90> ooh,
[02:18:43] <shaz90> nice idea
[02:19:04] <JymmmEMC> access or excell - depends if she just needs to make RO querys or manipliate the data
[02:19:04] <shaz90> that would work
[02:19:12] <shaz90> data entry
[02:19:30] <JymmmEMC> I hope the db is backed up hourly =)
[02:20:12] <shaz90> JymmmEMC, youve had many crazy, loony, totally barking ideas over the years on here, but that one is actually good, thnaks.
[02:20:26] <JymmmEMC> shaz90: It's what I do for a living.
[02:20:37] <shaz90> really/
[02:20:39] <shaz90> ?
[02:20:43] <JymmmEMC> SysAdmin
[02:20:47] <shaz90> oh, hmm
[02:20:54] <shaz90> it says here "caretaker" ...
[02:21:03] <shaz90> * shaz90 scrubs it out
[02:21:10] <JymmmEMC> it should say "village idiot"
[02:21:34] <JymmmEMC> because that's usually how I feel when I get obnoxious customers
[02:21:45] <shaz90> best avoided
[02:21:51] <shaz90> or use a cattle prod
[02:22:02] <JymmmEMC> Can't avoid them, dogging usually works
[02:22:14] <shaz90> dogging?
[02:22:20] <JymmmEMC> dodging
[02:22:28] <shaz90> ahh, right
[02:22:57] <JymmmEMC> I haven't even started the new jon yet and boss already has a project for me =)
[02:23:22] <shaz90> finisehd that router yet?
[02:23:32] <JymmmEMC> WIP
[02:24:11] <JymmmEMC> gotaa draw up the electrical for the new controller
[02:24:23] <shaz90> will a remote MySQL odbc source be a system DSN or user DSN?
[02:24:25] <JymmmEMC> by hand =(
[02:24:34] <JymmmEMC> make it a system DSN
[02:25:27] <JymmmEMC> http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/connector/odbc/3.51.html
[02:25:41] <JymmmEMC> though, I haven't tried that one myself.
[02:26:09] <JymmmEMC> http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/connector/odbc/5.1.html
[02:26:29] <shaz90> hmmm
[02:26:48] <JymmmEMC> I dont know the diff between those
[02:28:53] <shaz90> I suspect the latter works with MysQL 5.0 and above
[02:29:42] <JymmmEMC> Those are jsut the links that came up when I googled "mysql odbc"
[02:30:28] <shaz90> i never thought of using Access with MySQL as a backend via odbc before
[02:30:29] <shaz90> cute
[02:30:46] <shaz90> so clever
[02:30:48] <shaz90> amazing
[02:30:56] <shaz90> I admire your immensley
[02:31:08] <shaz90> is that enough yet?
[02:42:49] <shaz90> yay! .. succesfully connected via MS Access
[03:19:30] <a-l-p-h-a> eew
[03:19:38] <a-l-p-h-a> go use mysql.
[03:25:43] <fenn> he is using mysql
[03:55:09] <fenn> well this is cute. the new version of acpi thinks i'm pressing the sleep button, so it shuts down five seconds after it turns on
[03:56:17] <SWPadnos> setp acpi-sleep-button-in-onvert true
[03:56:21] <SWPadnos> err - invert
[05:04:13] <JymmmEMC> shaz90: the last comment would have been suficient
[05:04:30] <JymmmEMC> shaz90: shaz90: yay! .. succesfully connected via MS Access
[08:00:43] <tomp> this 4 stepper face simul8r is interesting (tho way overpriced) .http://www.robotshop.ca/home/on-sale/robodyssey-esra-kit.html
[08:00:51] <tomp> it's like kismet http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/sociable/baby-bits.htm
[08:00:52] <tomp> and some tts apps actually print the lip position for every phoneme, so the desired pose for each motor is known.
[08:57:54] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Relays I already have: W389CX-7 on page 8 (389 series) http://www.magnecraft.com/library/archive/104_Section1.pdf
[09:02:09] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Page 36 for contact rating chart
[09:13:08] <Guest902> Hello
[09:13:34] <Guest902> Is anything there?
[09:14:48] <Guest902> Halloooooooo
[13:12:16] <btg> anyone use gentoo w/ emc
[13:12:21] <btg> ??
[13:39:11] <btg> marsyas
[13:39:16] <btg> ?
[13:52:30] <shaz91> generally speaking ...
[13:52:54] <shaz91> use the ubuntu distro thing
[13:53:27] <shaz91> its possible to use other linuxes, yes, but the pain is not usually worth it
[14:10:00] <btg> ok thanks
[14:46:03] <JymmmEMC> mornin
[15:01:04] <JymmmEMC> I like the simplicity of this... Blown fuse (bulb?) indicator circuit... http://www.electronicsforu.com/efylinux/circuit/sep2000/cir2.htm
[15:23:00] <micges> hi
[15:28:02] <lerman> JymmmEMC: Yup. Pretty simple. One nice thing is that the LED is either red or green. That means we can detect a failure when neither color is displayed.
[15:28:59] <lerman> That principle could be used for every state display. For instance one light for auto; another for manual. If neither is displayed, it is a failure.
[15:29:34] <JymmmEMC> lerman: it actualy glows red when the fuse is blown
[15:30:01] <lerman> Yes. And green when the fuse is not blown.
[15:30:37] <JymmmEMC> Hell, even I have 1n4001 diodes around here =)
[15:30:46] <JymmmEMC> I know they said 4007, still =)
[15:32:09] <lerman> Why is there no diode in series with LED2 (green)? And why two diodes in series with LED2?
[15:32:33] <JymmmEMC> Under normal conditions (when fuse is alright), voltage drop in first arm is 2V + (2 x 0.7V) = 3.4V, whereas in second arm it is only 2V. So current flows through the second arm, i.e. through the green LED, causing it to glow; whereas the red LED remains off.
[15:32:39] <lerman> Never mind. I got it.
[15:33:10] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, I wouldn't have thought of that - but make sense.
[15:35:06] <lerman> One downside of the circuit is that you are running 220vac to the LEDs. I don't like the idea of running that to my little LEDs.
[15:35:53] <lerman> Of course, you could use big LED housings... with crimp on terminals or screw terminals. But they cost big bucks.
[15:36:26] <JymmmEMC> 100K is a big drop, as long as it doens't short across anything
[15:36:45] <lerman> Instead, for a few extra parts, you could use a similar circuit with opto-isolators and then have you LEDs at low voltage.
[15:37:17] <lerman> (Or feed the optos to the computer and let it display the status of the fuses.)
[15:37:47] <JymmmEMC> lerman: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150191506961&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005
[15:39:17] <lerman> That's the right idea.
[15:41:10] <JymmmEMC> Hmmm by this diagram the DC lamps can be used by AC too, but the AC is AC ONLY http://www.pioneerbreaker.com/part_images/PLl-22NCSPECS.jpg
[15:41:27] <JymmmEMC> ah < 220
[15:51:58] <JymmmEMC> On my gf's car I have a headlight warning buzzer I installed in the fusebox... If the lights are on, but the ignition is off, is sounds. It connects to the POSITIVE side of both. When IGN is off, that completes the gnd path thru the bulb's gnd (iirc). Could the same be done in an AC circuit?
[15:53:27] <JymmmEMC> I ask because I have a switch on/off/on and I'd like to use a lamp to indicate the OFF position if possible.
[16:10:41] <JymmmEMC> Gawd, I'm drain bamaged this morning... If you wanted an A/B switch (A or B but not both), would this configuration be right.... I N/C and 1 N/O contact? http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-22MM-SELECTOR-SWITCH-2-POSITION-MAINTAINED-1NO-1NC_W0QQitemZ150189226646QQihZ005QQcategoryZ58166QQcmdZViewItem
[16:36:12] <shaz90> meep?
[16:36:52] <Unit41> ,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
[16:37:39] <Unit41> who wants a tesla turbine book ?
[16:37:47] <Unit41> hot off the scanner
[16:48:42] <Unit41> http://rapidshare.com/files/83509484/TTDiskTurbine.tar.gz.html
[16:48:53] <Unit41> not my scanner a friend of mine's
[16:49:01] <Unit41> yea
[16:50:21] <JymmmEMC> "...turbine" ?
[16:51:02] <Unit41> exactly that dear watson
[16:51:31] <JymmmEMC> Tesla, as in coil + turbine?
[16:52:57] <Unit41> yes
[16:53:11] <Unit41> he invented the sparkplug too
[16:53:21] <shaz90> hmmm
[16:53:38] <Unit41> and the first diode and resistors
[16:53:49] <shaz90> hmmmm
[16:54:35] <Unit41> he was so sane he was crazy
[16:55:59] <Roguish> Tesla was the daVinci of the electron!!!
[16:56:29] <fenn> diode and resistors eh
[16:57:07] <Unit41> yea the one way valvular conduit was the first mechanical diode
[16:57:25] <Unit41> other than a check valve
[16:57:42] <fenn> except the word 'diode' means it has TWO ELECTRODES YOU FUCKING MORON
[16:58:07] <JymmmEMC> lol
[16:58:36] <shaz90> diode was a term first applied to a particular type of flap valve in a steam locomotive
[16:58:39] <JymmmEMC> fenn: You should go out for politics
[16:59:42] <fenn> shaz90: please attempt to source your inaccurate statement.. go ahead
[17:00:59] <fenn> wait a minnit
[17:01:06] <fenn> shaz90 == robin?
[17:04:09] <fenn> * fenn goes back to his troll-free basement
[17:12:28] <JymmmEMC> Are most industrial controls break-before-make?
[17:14:08] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: you mean industrial pushbuttons?
[17:14:43] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: primarily switches
[17:14:59] <jmkasunich> almost always the NC contact opens before the NO contact closes
[17:15:33] <jmkasunich> you can usually get late open NC or early close NO, but those are only used for special situations
[17:16:44] <JymmmEMC> ok, cool. I want to have a MANUAL/AUTO MODE switch, but I originally couldn't figure out how to setup a safety factor into it (user forgets what mode it's in). But what I think I'll do is setup the mode switch in such a way that you have to hit "SYSTEM ON" button every time you switch between modes.
[17:17:13] <JymmmEMC> any comments?
[17:17:35] <jmkasunich> sounds reasonable
[17:17:47] <JymmmEMC> any drawbacks that you could think of?
[17:17:55] <jmkasunich> you could also use a three position switch, MANUAL/OFF/AUTO
[17:18:02] <jmkasunich> thats rather common in industry
[17:18:37] <JymmmEMC> I have those for each item to be controlled, but I wanted to add a safety factor into it - user error sorta thing.
[17:18:58] <jmkasunich> are you making a machine to sell, or for your own use?
[17:19:06] <JymmmEMC> a lil of each
[17:19:39] <jmkasunich> selling things gets you into deep water fast
[17:19:56] <JymmmEMC> as a semi-assmebled kit
[17:19:56] <jmkasunich> you cannot possibly prevent a true idiot from hurting himself no matter what you do
[17:20:08] <jmkasunich> so the best you can do is prove to the court that you did the best you can
[17:20:19] <JymmmEMC> I do realize that, but the idiot I'm most concerned about is me =)
[17:20:27] <jmkasunich> "the best you can" in court is NOT based on asking people - its based on complying with industry standard and rules
[17:21:33] <eric_U> get a high quality switch, not that junk of unknown provenance that you keep posting links to
[17:22:02] <jmkasunich> yep
[17:22:17] <JymmmEMC> eric_U: what does that have to do with the way I'm talking about using it?
[17:22:27] <eric_U> you don't know how it will work
[17:22:35] <jmkasunich> hint: parts from ebay is not a business plan - if you expect to sell multiple units of something, you need to be able to get the parts on a continuing basis
[17:22:56] <JymmmEMC> It could be $2000 switch, how it's use it what matters.
[17:23:06] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: No, this is a one-off thing.
[17:23:11] <SWPadnos> both matter
[17:23:22] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos is right - both matter
[17:23:36] <SWPadnos> for one extra unit, you don't need to worry so much about replacement parts
[17:23:36] <shaz90> * shaz90 does a quick calculation
[17:23:40] <JymmmEMC> Ok, back to my original question.... any drawbacks?
[17:23:48] <shaz90> ok, so lets see ...
[17:23:53] <jmkasunich> inventing some rube golberg "safety" system to protect against a switch failure, when reliable industry accepted switches are available, is NOT the way to get safety
[17:23:59] <SWPadnos> however, using industry-standard parts makes it easier for the one customer to get replacements from places like eBay
[17:24:01] <shaz90> lets assume JymmmEMC can learn from experience,
[17:24:10] <archivist> never
[17:24:23] <shaz90> lets assume the 2nd machine only takes 80% of the time to build as the first one
[17:24:39] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, drawbacks to requiring system-on press every time you switch to AUTO?
[17:24:40] <shaz90> based on current progress, id say ..
[17:24:55] <shaz90> some time in 2083 looks likely
[17:25:07] <eric_U> you guys are mean
[17:25:13] <shaz90> reallistis
[17:25:15] <shaz90> c
[17:25:20] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: something like that yes. A "RUN MODE" switch.
[17:25:37] <SWPadnos> ok - the main drawback I see is that I'm not sure how you'd actually implement that
[17:26:26] <SWPadnos> you have several things you want to operate that way, what you're suggesting would basically require a latching start/stop arrangement for each item, downstream of the OFF/AUTO/MANUAL switch
[17:27:01] <shaz90> its a bit like lightguards on big machines I guess
[17:27:13] <SWPadnos> so you'd have several start/stop buttons (more like enable/disable in this case), plus the main contactor, plus the e-stop latching relay, plus several mode switches
[17:27:17] <shaz90> any lightguard beign tripped means an estop
[17:27:39] <SWPadnos> unless there's a simpler way of doing it (which I haven't thought of, BC), you'll run out of space pretty fast
[17:27:40] <shaz90> then you have to go around the machine, check it is clear of people, reset each lightguard
[17:28:13] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: No, only latching on the runmode sw, the rest would be ON/OFF/AUTO
[17:28:55] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: my personal preference is to separate safety from function
[17:28:59] <SWPadnos> sure, but if you want to require a "system start" action after swtiching to AUTO, then you need something like the latching estop relay setup for each item
[17:29:03] <shaz90> * shaz90 nods
[17:29:11] <jmkasunich> why do you have ON/OFF/AUTO switches on every item? do that in software
[17:29:28] <jmkasunich> the safety chain would kill main power, that will kill everything else
[17:29:35] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, the idea is that you could use the vacuum to clean the machine, without the PC being on
[17:29:42] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: I NEVER trust software.
[17:29:44] <shaz90> jmkasunich: dont forget, most codes mandate the estop circuit cannot be in software
[17:29:57] <jmkasunich> hello, what did I just say?
[17:29:58] <SWPadnos> so you have an ON/OFF/AUTO switch that lets you turn on the vacuum
[17:30:04] <jmkasunich> separete function from sw
[17:30:16] <shaz90> * shaz90 nods
[17:30:21] <jmkasunich> "the safety chain would kill main power"
[17:30:31] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: No computer connected == manual mode.
[17:30:34] <jmkasunich> the safety chain would not include softweare, or course
[17:30:47] <shaz90> of course
[17:31:01] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: do what you want - you asked for advice, I gave it
[17:31:17] <jmkasunich> I see very little benefit in having a "computer off" mode
[17:31:17] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, I think you're trying to protect someone from the PC doing bad things while the system is in auto mode - that is inherently impossible
[17:31:20] <shaz90> anyway, this is all by the by, as the chnaces of JymmmEMC actually doing this are zero
[17:31:34] <jmkasunich> I took the handwheels off of my machine - if I want "manual" mode, I run the PC and use MDI or jogs
[17:31:47] <shaz90> * shaz90 nods
[17:31:57] <shaz90> doors open = estop
[17:31:58] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, this isn't about running the motors with the PC off - it's about aux things like vacuum
[17:32:17] <SWPadnos> and possibly spindle (though I don't see why that would be needed without axis motors)
[17:32:41] <jmkasunich> unless he intends to stick the vacuum in his mouth and suck out his tonsils, I'd consider it a "safe" thing
[17:32:56] <SWPadnos> heh - I was thinking the same thing, albeit not in such graphic terms ;)
[17:33:02] <shaz90> again, vacuum, lube, mist, flood, all should be pc ontrolled, if you want em on just type M<xx> or G9 or whatver
[17:33:05] <jmkasunich> so have a relay controlled outlet, with a switch to bypass the relay for "manual" mode
[17:33:10] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: The idea of what I'm tlaking about here, is not realizing that I left spindle in MANUAL mode (as example) kick POWER ON and it starts up. If I have to hit a latching button to switch between run modes, it'll always reset to a safe mode even if I dont realize what position the switch is in.
[17:33:18] <shaz90> or assign a button on the screen to do it
[17:33:31] <shaz90> or assign a button on a keypad
[17:33:36] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, OK - I can see that. I just don't know how to do it in switch/relay hardware
[17:33:36] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: thats why we're recommending that you SHOULD NOT HAVE a manual mode for the spindle
[17:33:51] <shaz90> provifing hardware swtiching seems and expensive and needless waste
[17:33:58] <jmkasunich> exactly
[17:34:10] <jmkasunich> your start button means nothing
[17:34:15] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, that's something to consider - do you really need to run the spindle while the PC is off, considering that you won't be able to move the axes
[17:34:22] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I have, just can't draw it up in ASCII to explain
[17:34:38] <shaz90> and .. since you dont see it on mainstream controls, you can make a few assumptions
[17:34:44] <jmkasunich> all that means is that instead of the spindle staring unexpectedly when you switch from AUTO to MANUAL, it will start unexpectedly when you push the button
[17:35:20] <shaz90> quite
[17:35:42] <jmkasunich> and trust me, if you use the machine much, pushing the button after a mode switch will become habit, to the point where you do it automatically without thinking
[17:36:11] <shaz90> and in anycase, assuming your estop chain includes the doors onthe machine being closed, does it even matter if it starts "unexpectedly"
[17:37:32] <jmkasunich> if the only way to start the spindle is from the PC, that is safer than having multiple "modes"
[17:37:47] <shaz90> * shaz90 nods
[17:38:00] <jmkasunich> as before - it is a given that the master cutoff is in hardware
[17:38:09] <JymmmEMC> Ok, maybe I don't need ON/OFF/AUTO for spindle, but could be in parallel to lube pump. And then have spindle to AUTO/OFF instead.
[17:38:17] <shaz90> but this is JymmmEMC we are talking about, industry standard practice means noting here
[17:38:49] <jmkasunich> I predict broken tooling in Jymm's future
[17:39:11] <eric_U> there is an interesting thread on CNCZone about estop
[17:39:13] <SWPadnos> umm - can we stop the personal attacke please?
[17:39:18] <shaz90> jmkasunich: you have more confidence that he will actually get it moving than me then
[17:39:19] <SWPadnos> attacks, that is
[17:39:21] <jmkasunich> if you can turn the spindle to "OFF" and then run a program, you _will_ break tools, because you'll leave it OFF when you try to run a program
[17:39:22] <eric_U> some of the estop schemes in use are fairly dangerous
[17:39:52] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: If I want to "dry run" a program, I don't need the spindle running.
[17:40:02] <shaz90> oh, ok, fair enough
[17:40:07] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, then you switch it to "OFF"
[17:40:13] <SWPadnos> or unplug the router
[17:40:30] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I know, but jmkasunich was balking at the idea of a spinfle OFF sw
[17:40:48] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: to each his own
[17:40:57] <SWPadnos> I think he was responding to the idea of the spindle coming on by itself
[17:41:04] <jmkasunich> I wouldn't do it, but if you see an operational need, by all means do
[17:41:11] <SWPadnos> which it will, at some point, in any off/auto scheme
[17:41:27] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: no, I was suggesting that a manual override of the spindle control (of any kind) has issues
[17:41:42] <SWPadnos> sure - there will be surprises with any scheme
[17:41:57] <jmkasunich> manually forcing the spindle off is safe for the operator at least (unless he gets hit by the flying tool after it breaks when it hits the work while not turning)
[17:43:31] <shaz90> enough of this ... I shall come back to see the next thrilling (but no doubt remarkably similar episode) in a year or so
[17:44:13] <jmkasunich> shaz90 sounds remarkably like robin_sz
[17:44:41] <SWPadnos> crazy brits
[17:46:00] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: If it's any conselation (sp), I plan on having idiot lights as well. So at a glance you cna see if it's in AUTO/MANUAL mode at any given time.
[17:48:02] <JymmmEMC> All I was originally asking if anyone could see a drawback in switching run mode from MANUAL/AUTO, since power to certain things will be removed during the transition between the two modes.
[17:48:05] <skunkworks> <shaz90> meep?
[17:48:39] <toastydeath> what is "manual" mode
[17:49:43] <JymmmEMC> toastydeath: No PC running (bypassing chargpump) = manual.
[17:49:57] <toastydeath> o
[17:50:57] <fenn> JymmmEMC: what's the point of 'manual mode' again?
[17:51:15] <SWPadnos> wait please
[17:51:37] <JymmmEMC> fenn: Example... to use dustvac for cleanup, or to enable lube pump for flsuhing system, etc
[17:51:39] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, have you thought about making a chart of operational modes and what gets powered in which mode?
[17:52:07] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Yes, that's where these questions are coming from.
[17:52:22] <SWPadnos> ok - then you should have the answers on that sheet ;)
[17:52:38] <SWPadnos> is it a spreadsheet you can email?
[17:52:42] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I never said it was complete =)
[17:53:13] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Yeah it is... graphite and wood pulp
[17:53:46] <SWPadnos> oh, I'll take a look on Thursday :)
[17:53:57] <JymmmEMC> =)
[17:54:46] <SWPadnos> remember - I'm planning on another trip in Feb/Mar, so let's not worry about getting everything done this week
[17:55:24] <JymmmEMC> k
[17:55:38] <Unit41> there I just got a scanned copy of poor mans c02 laser plans
[17:55:46] <Unit41> uploading
[17:55:53] <JymmmEMC> Unit41: now, THAT I'll take =)
[18:02:41] <Unit41> http://rapidshare.com/files/83525871/PoorMansC02Laser.tar.gz.html
[18:07:02] <JymmmEMC> Unit41: Instead of using rapidshare, try zshare.net up to 100MB no waiting
[18:09:15] <JymmmEMC> Unit41: wth ext is djvu ?
[18:12:46] <JymmmEMC> nm, got it
[18:17:29] <^Fritz> Dammit...gotta disconnect...
[18:56:41] <dmess> hi all
[19:00:41] <alex_joni> 'lo
[19:13:34] <alex_joni> good night all
[20:40:51] <dmess> vericad for linux is a free download...
[20:48:02] <tomp> dmess: vericad's site shows a 30 day demo for download, did you find something else? https://www.varicad.com/3dcaddownload.phtml
[21:00:10] <^Fritz> archivist_emc, bookmark
[21:00:39] <^Fritz> logger_emc, bookmark
[21:00:39] <^Fritz> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-01-13.txt
[21:00:40] <archivist> archivist eh wot! /me is not a bot
[21:01:12] <dmess> no thats what i was on about...
[21:01:12] <archivist_emc> or me
[21:08:57] <fenn> heh i thought you were a bot too
[21:14:32] <archivist_emc> I be on my nooo installed emc
[21:22:40] <^Fritz> dangit...rapidshare is blocked off to me
[21:23:10] <^Fritz> I wanted to look at that co2 laser thing
[21:30:38] <JymmmEMC> ^Fritz: No you dont, you can buy the parts assembled cheaper than it would to build from scratch
[21:31:43] <^Fritz> I just wanted to look at it
[21:31:46] <jmkasunich> I hates collets, I hates them I do
[21:32:10] <jmkasunich> the infamous creeping endmill has struck
[21:32:38] <cradek> jmkasunich: ended up deeper than it started?
[21:32:44] <jmkasunich> fortunately it didn't ruin the part, but it turned a two (or maybe three) pass roughing cut itot what seemed to take hours
[21:32:45] <tomp> wrap paper around shank for sloppy collet ;)
[21:32:45] <jmkasunich> yes
[21:32:57] <jmkasunich> tomp: I should try that
[21:33:13] <tomp> not good technique, just get it done technique
[21:33:18] <jmkasunich> I had to go 0.8" deep with a 1/2" mill, figured I'd do 0.3" passes
[21:33:20] <^Fritz> shim stock is better
[21:33:37] <cradek> if you can fit paper in there, a better approach is to throw away the collet
[21:33:43] <jmkasunich> the first pass was about 0.7" deep when the spindle VFD shut down on overload
[21:33:43] <tomp> yep
[21:33:53] <jmkasunich> 5V collets are rare as hens teeth
[21:34:19] <cradek> china is making them
[21:34:24] <jmkasunich> oh, thats right
[21:34:26] <jmkasunich> hmm
[21:34:44] <jmkasunich> what I really want to do is replace the spindle with something that takes R8
[21:34:59] <JymmmEMC> ^Fritz: But, in case you are feeling sadistic... http://www.zshare.net/download/6480297930957a/
[21:35:09] <jmkasunich> then I can use cheap tooling, including the TTS stuff that I'm gradually amassing for the shoptask
[21:35:16] <^Fritz> sadistic, or masochistic?
[21:35:25] <JymmmEMC> d) all the above
[21:36:10] <jmkasunich> what was really frustrating is the the VN (and the cutter) were perfectly happy hogging out metal, but I had to drop to 0.1" DOC and weenie feed to keep the tool in place
[21:36:25] <^Fritz> jmk: anything can be had...but 1) find it first and 2) afford it when you do
[21:36:29] <jmkasunich> it was even squeaking cause I wasn't giving it the feed it wanted
[21:37:30] <jmkasunich> ^Fritz: if you're talking about an R8 spindle - I'll have to make that
[21:38:00] <JymmmEMC> ^Fritz: you might wnat to grab it, as the link is time limited.
[21:38:55] <^Fritz> jymmm: I'm trying, but anything that uses javascript does not come through well through my ISPs fubarred proxy
[21:40:54] <skunkworks> what kind of collet is it?
[21:40:58] <skunkworks> what flavor?
[21:41:09] <jmkasunich> Van Norman, 5V
[21:41:37] <skunkworks> huh.. not heard of that :)
[21:41:54] <skunkworks> van norman had thier own standard?
[21:41:58] <jmkasunich> here's a drawing of the collet: http://jmkasunich.com/vannorman/VN_Spindle.htm
[21:42:29] <skunkworks> ah - 5c esk
[21:42:30] <jmkasunich> and here's a drawing of the spindle I made some years ago, with an eye towards making a new one in R8: http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/_2002_retired_files/SPINDLE.gif
[21:42:50] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: http://www.magnecraft.com/library/archive/104_Section1.pdf pg35 & 36 - what would those contacts be rated for inductive wise?
[21:43:20] <JymmmEMC> Series 389
[21:43:54] <JymmmEMC> DPDT 12VDC coil
[21:44:02] <jmkasunich> thats a fricking 58 page document
[21:44:12] <jmkasunich> you expect me to read it all?
[21:44:23] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: No, the info is on pg 35 & 36
[21:45:02] <jmkasunich> there is a whole table of contact ratings
[21:45:32] <jmkasunich> can't you figure it out?
[21:45:40] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Right, but I don't understand what the amperage rating would be.
[21:46:07] <jmkasunich> how the fsck am I supposed to know what your fscking load needs?
[21:46:20] <JymmmEMC> On the realy itself, it says 25a @ 300VAC
[21:46:35] <jmkasunich> the actual rating depends on the nature of the load
[21:46:38] <tomp> they list 'inductive rating' of a contact? maybe your coil containing device and wiring have some inductance but not the contact
[21:46:56] <jmkasunich> there is an astonishingly complete table on page 36, all you need to do is read and comprehend
[21:47:37] <jmkasunich> they have ratings for resistive, ballast, motor, pilot duty (means pulling in other relays/contactors), and DC, for different voltages
[21:47:44] <JymmmEMC> Like I mentioned, I know amps, then mention hp.
[21:47:54] <JymmmEMC> s/then/they/
[21:48:00] <jmkasunich> WTF is you FSCKING LOAD?
[21:48:08] <JymmmEMC> 12A motor
[21:48:25] <JymmmEMC> per it's specs in the manual
[21:48:34] <jmkasunich> motors aren't rated in amps, they're rated in HP
[21:48:56] <jmkasunich> is this a router motor, with brushes and all that crap? or a real motor (induction)?
[21:49:18] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail?H=175980&G=54938&I=80665&T=1
[21:49:43] <jmkasunich> a simple "yes" would suffice
[21:49:47] <JymmmEMC> It says 12A, as does the manual. The "stated" HP doens't match up is seems.
[21:50:09] <jmkasunich> of course not, its a consumer item, those are salesman horses
[21:50:31] <jmkasunich> the relay is rated 1HP at 120V motor duty
[21:50:36] <jmkasunich> 1HP is 746 watts
[21:50:39] <JymmmEMC> I understand that, that's why I asked as I've measured 12A peak.
[21:51:47] <jmkasunich> a typical real motor has a power factor of about 0.8, so a real 1HP motor would draw about 746/0.8 = 933 VA, at 120V that is 933/120 = 7.77A
[21:52:04] <jmkasunich> so, the relay isn't big enough for your 12A motor
[21:52:31] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: would you consider this router having a "real motor" ?
[21:52:46] <jmkasunich> I'm being sarcastic - I don't consider motors with brushes real motors
[21:52:53] <JymmmEMC> oh, heh
[21:52:56] <jmkasunich> run that router for 1000 hours and see what is left
[21:52:59] <jmkasunich> if it lasts that long
[21:53:06] <tomp> any chance that collet draw nut slipped? its got near .7" of grab length, did it feel tight after the tool moved?
[21:53:24] <jmkasunich> at 1000 hours, a proper industrial induction motor is just getting broken in
[21:53:49] <jmkasunich> tomp: its a draw tube
[21:54:09] <jmkasunich> it didn't slip, it just wasn't tight enough
[21:54:26] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: is the PF of .8 kinda avg? or on the safe side?
[21:54:34] <jmkasunich> its kind of average
[21:54:49] <jmkasunich> it doesn't matter, 7.77 is less than 12 by a large margin
[21:54:56] <jmkasunich> get a real contactor and be done with it
[21:54:56] <JymmmEMC> ok, about the same for a brush motor too?
[21:55:02] <jmkasunich> no
[21:55:13] <jmkasunich> brush motors I have no idea what the power factor is
[21:55:17] <jmkasunich> and I don't really care
[21:55:20] <jmkasunich> they're not real motors
[21:55:35] <JymmmEMC> ah, ok. The whole PF thing is foreighn to me is why I asked.
[21:55:55] <jmkasunich> power factor = real watts divided by apparent watts (aka VA)
[21:56:10] <jmkasunich> 12A * 120V = 1440 VA for your router
[21:56:20] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: that Ik know, but like the PF of a xmfr, motor, etc
[21:56:58] <jmkasunich> since one HP is 746 watts, 1440VA with a perfect 1.0 power factor, and perfect effieciency, would give you 1440/746 =1.932 HP
[21:57:07] <jmkasunich> so obviously the 2.25HP is a lie
[21:57:37] <JymmmEMC> yeah, that I gathered.
[21:57:58] <jmkasunich> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
[21:58:12] <JymmmEMC> thanks
[21:58:17] <jmkasunich> if you can't fiture it out from reading that, theres no way in hell that someone on IRC can explain it
[21:59:18] <skunkworks> peak to peak HP :) - just like how they rate car audio amplifiers.
[21:59:29] <JymmmEMC> No, I meant I didn't know what things (xmfr, motor, etc) have what certain PF's (on avg).
[22:00:06] <jmkasunich> transformers aren't usually rated in terms of PF
[22:00:26] <archivist> they reflect the loads pf
[22:00:38] <JymmmEMC> I had to learn and PF in respect to VA -vs- A in respect to UPS's
[22:00:40] <jmkasunich> their magnetising current is low enough to ignore, I'm guessing that at full load the power factor is better than 0.95 (assuming a load PF of 1.0)
[22:01:09] <jmkasunich> motors draw non-negligable magnetising current, thats why the PF is less than unity
[22:01:24] <jmkasunich> (magnetising current lags the voltage by 90 degrees and conveys no real power)
[22:03:33] <JymmmEMC> Lets save teh current leads/lags voltage for another decade - that one I dont understand at all and need todo soemreading on.
[22:03:46] <jmkasunich> fine by me
[22:04:20] <JymmmEMC> The closest thing I know about 3Ph, is that if the motor is turning the wrong way, flip any two pairs.
[22:04:37] <jmkasunich> the basic point of PF is that the amps drawn by an inductive load (especially a motor) will be more than the amps you get if you simply divide watts by volts
[22:04:51] <lerman> Nope. Flip any two wires -- that would be one pair.
[22:05:05] <jmkasunich> lerman: nitpicker
[22:05:22] <jmkasunich> lerman: btw, thanks for O-words
[22:05:33] <lerman> And proud of it. I'm a programmer after all. :-)
[22:05:39] <lerman> You are quite welcome.
[22:05:41] <jmkasunich> I've only recently got my machine running and started writing g-code, and they are very handy
[22:06:14] <jmkasunich> I like the fact that you can do indirect calls like "O#100 call"
[22:06:33] <lerman> Well, the grammar is really terrible, but it was easy to implement.
[22:06:55] <lerman> Yup, that's neat. And more or less free.
[22:07:22] <jmkasunich> I was able to write a sub that follows an outline, then write another sub that takes the first sub as an arg, and does both roughing passes (some distance outside the path, deeper each pass) and then finish passes (full depth, work in toward the line)
[22:07:36] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, (sorry to bug you but ...) on that relay spec sheet, what are the "VA Rating Make" and "VA Rating Break" ratings?
[22:07:55] <SWPadnos> I'd think that those are the max power (VA) that the relay can safely turn on and off, respectively
[22:08:00] <jmkasunich> I closed the document, so I'm just guessing here
[22:08:02] <jmkasunich> yes
[22:08:02] <lerman> The *scary* thing about o-words is that you can't just test the program, because how it runs can depend on external things.
[22:08:12] <SWPadnos> ok - far short of the 15/20/25/30A ratings :)
[22:08:26] <lerman> Such as probing, tool tables, etc.
[22:08:43] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: if you are using it do do something like pull in a large contactor, the current needed to close the contactor will be much higher than the current needed to keep it closed
[22:08:59] <archivist> SWPadnos, yes they cheat and give resistive load ratings
[22:09:23] <SWPadnos> ok - I figured that asymmetry was due to pull/release coils
[22:09:30] <SWPadnos> err - coil ratings
[22:09:36] <jmkasunich> usually a contactor catalog will have closing (or inrush) coil VA requirements as well as holding VA, so you'd compare the requirements of the load contactor coil against the driver relay's contact ratings
[22:09:57] <SWPadnos> oh - those VA ratings were in the contacts section, not the coul section
[22:10:00] <SWPadnos> coil
[22:10:05] <archivist> arcing accross contacts
[22:10:06] <lerman> Consider the case where a relay is used to reverse direction, and another one is used to actually turn the power on and off.
[22:10:14] <SWPadnos> so they could be for driving a coil (pilot duty as you said)
[22:10:36] <lerman> In that case the direction relay would be switching "dry". There would be no switching current.
[22:10:39] <jmkasunich> right - load coil VA requirements need to be less than drive contact ratings
[22:10:44] <SWPadnos> well, I gotta run - thanks for the info
[22:11:13] <jmkasunich> I've used some contactors at work with 3KVA inrush, and only a couple hundred VA holding
[22:11:38] <jmkasunich> 600A three pole contactor - when it closes, you know it.... THUNK!
[22:13:34] <jmkasunich> well, back out in the cold - gotta finish milling my t-slot
[22:14:40] <archivist> * archivist is testing repeatability
[22:49:21] <cradek> jmkasunich: what are you making this timme?
[23:02:20] <archivist_emc> how do I debug a joint 3 following error
[23:02:49] <cradek> it means your step rate cannot keep up with the max velocity you requested
[23:03:00] <cradek> err is this steppers?
[23:03:04] <archivist_emc> yes
[23:03:13] <cradek> ok then that's true
[23:03:25] <archivist_emc> ok
[23:07:02] <cradek> if you set a stepgen max velocity (a little above the max velocity you want) you'll get a nicer error message
[23:07:29] <jmkasunich> cradek: steady rest (and other thing) bases
[23:08:05] <jmkasunich> they will clamp to the dovetails on the shoptask bed and be the same height, with the same t-slot (only one slot tho) as the table
[23:08:40] <jmkasunich> then I can make a piece that mounts on the base to support a part I'm turning, or whatever
[23:08:43] <cradek> sounds very useful
[23:09:21] <jmkasunich> I have this weird idea for putting one on each side of the table, with a bridge between them
[23:09:54] <jmkasunich> then putting a small high-speed spindle on the bridge, so I can do fine work without rediculous tool extensions and with much more rigidity
[23:12:33] <cradek> that sounds very neat
[23:12:40] <cradek> any plans for Z on the small spindle?
[23:13:12] <tomp> my brother just called asking how to support 8 sided rifle barrel in lathe, I said 4 jaw, then he asked how to support the other end ( now hanging out rear of headstock ) any suggestions?
[23:13:56] <jmkasunich> the whole small spindle idea is nebulous right now
[23:14:12] <jmkasunich> but I'm thinking of just running a rod up to the main spindle, and using its Z
[23:14:21] <jmkasunich> (motor not runnong)
[23:14:39] <jmkasunich> the bridge would have a short vertical slide and would handle side loads
[23:14:59] <jmkasunich> the main millhead would handle vertical loads and provide Z movement
[23:15:41] <jmkasunich> tomp: depends on how long the barrel is relative to the headstock, and how fast he wants to go
[23:16:22] <tomp> it sounded long & fast enuf to get whippy if unsupported, specific measures i dont know
[23:16:22] <jmkasunich> if the spindle is long and speeds are low, all he might need is a custom turned bushing to go over the barrel and seat in the end of the spindle
[23:16:50] <tomp> yeah we talked of a button for a steady rest with oct in it
[23:17:11] <tomp> no rear overhang that way, all forward
[23:17:43] <jmkasunich> just make the button round, barely big enough to go over the corners, and put 4 or eight soft tipped setscrews in it
[23:17:55] <jmkasunich> that way you can center up as if it was a four-jaw
[23:18:37] <tomp> yeah we talked of a tiny '4 jaw' at the steady rest using 4 set screws with brass bits on end
[23:18:49] <tomp> thx
[23:20:49] <cradek> sure - the existing Z - it's obvious now that you say it
[23:21:02] <cradek> maybe just use one of those linear slides you found?
[23:21:58] <jmkasunich> right
[23:22:06] <jmkasunich> like the single large one
[23:23:29] <jmkasunich> I've also thought about making an extension spindle that would be driven by the main one (no speed increase, just length)
[23:23:43] <jmkasunich> and have a bearing, mounted on a short vertical slide, on the bridge
[23:23:44] <cradek> but you need the speed more than anything else
[23:23:50] <cradek> (for small stuff)
[23:23:54] <jmkasunich> yeah
[23:24:25] <jmkasunich> so my choices are a small fast motor driving a spindle, or take rotation and Z from the main spindle, and use a belt to step up to the fast one
[23:24:54] <cradek> a single belt won't get you more than 3:1
[23:25:07] <jmkasunich> a 3/8 drill rid going up to a collet in the main spindle could drive a large pulley and transfer Z travel
[23:25:34] <jmkasunich> 3:1 would only get me about 5000 rpm
[23:25:48] <cradek> you want 20k for pcbs
[23:25:50] <jmkasunich> probalby want 15000 or so, depending on how small the tools are
[23:25:54] <jmkasunich> ah
[23:26:05] <jmkasunich> so electric of some sort
[23:26:06] <cradek> can your machine move 20ipm?
[23:26:11] <jmkasunich> yes
[23:26:15] <cradek> electric or air
[23:26:15] <jmkasunich> 48ipm
[23:26:24] <cradek> then maybe you want 30k
[23:26:29] <cradek> you can't go too fast
[23:27:19] <jmkasunich> I wonder if HF makes a dremel or foredom clone that could provide a suitable motor and maybe spindle parts?
[23:27:36] <jmkasunich> (pretty sure they do make a foredom clone, dunno price)
[23:28:36] <jmkasunich> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40432
[23:28:48] <jmkasunich> 15000 RPM, 1/4 HP
[23:28:51] <jmkasunich> $70
[23:28:52] <cradek> I took my vise off after months of coolant use and the table is still perfect underneath - yay for WD40 even though people talk bad about it
[23:29:25] <anonimasu> heh..
[23:29:30] <cradek> interesting, I wonder what the bearings in the handheld part are like
[23:29:34] <anonimasu> yay for using proper coolant
[23:29:37] <anonimasu> and not water.
[23:29:48] <jmkasunich> the bearings are probably so-so
[23:29:53] <cradek> well it's 95% water...
[23:30:04] <jmkasunich> it has a small jacobs chuck, so its not really suitable for milling
[23:30:13] <jmkasunich> but the motor is the important part
[23:30:40] <cradek> if the jacobs is screw-on, I'm sure you could do light cutting (like pcbs)
[23:30:41] <jmkasunich> good bearings aren't too expensive if you stay small
[23:31:04] <jmkasunich> runout on the jacobs is likely to be not-so-good
[23:31:14] <cradek> that's true
[23:31:23] <jmkasunich> thats the main hard part of a small spindle anyway - toolholding
[23:31:39] <cradek> at least you only need one size (1/8)
[23:31:49] <jmkasunich> yep
[23:32:09] <jmkasunich> I've had an idea for a number of years for a 1/8" spindle
[23:32:32] <jmkasunich> get the brass double-cones that are used for compression fittings (they are available for 1/8" OD tubing)
[23:32:45] <jmkasunich> make the nose look like a fitting, and have a matching nut
[23:32:58] <jmkasunich> and compress one brass ring onto each tool you want to use
[23:33:48] <cradek> did you draw that up? I think I remember you had a drawing last time you describned this
[23:34:01] <cradek> (argh this keyboard)
[23:34:14] <jmkasunich> I probably did, dunno where it is tho
[23:35:56] <jmkasunich> yet another project
[23:37:12] <jmkasunich> now that I can thread and do tapers on the lathe easily I might give that a try
[23:37:29] <cradek> whee
[23:37:59] <jmkasunich> after I finish the steady rest bases and steady
[23:42:18] <jmkasunich> dinner time
[23:52:34] <fenn> that's a neat idea
[23:53:16] <fenn> i wonder if the rings would hold Z repeatably
[23:59:14] <dmess> with a dab of solder they would
[23:59:32] <fenn> i dont think solder sticks to carbide very well
[23:59:45] <fenn> unless you mean silver solder
[23:59:48] <dmess> flut them both up prior ti installing acorn
[23:59:59] <dmess> flux