#emc | Logs for 2008-01-12

[00:25:17] <BigJohnT> the Antek power supply is awsome... now I can put up my lab power supply and the industrial one
[00:58:45] <fenn> LawrenceG: how are you communicating between hal and the drives?
[01:03:34] <LawrenceG> those drives have a dspic doing the pid loop.... I used quadrature signals to feed in the position cmd... like a step/dir servo drive only better!
[02:22:37] <LawrenceG> logger_emc: bookmark
[02:22:37] <LawrenceG> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-01-12.txt
[02:24:46] <robin_sz> meep?
[02:24:59] <LawrenceG> boing
[02:25:46] <robin_sz> are we well
[02:25:47] <robin_sz> ?
[02:26:24] <LawrenceG> Hi Robin... all is fine on the west coast
[02:26:37] <robin_sz> i guesss
[02:26:49] <robin_sz> im in the uk, difficult to telll frmo here
[02:27:25] <LawrenceG> I guess I am about 8 hours west of you
[02:27:36] <LawrenceG> 18:27 here
[02:27:50] <robin_sz> 02:17
[02:28:34] <robin_sz> so, just commisioning a new machine this w/e
[02:28:47] <robin_sz> looking good so far
[02:29:11] <robin_sz> x axis servo is huge
[02:29:23] <robin_sz> like 60A cont, 150A peak
[02:30:05] <LawrenceG> fun... I used to do a lot of weekend conversions at sawmills.... brutal hours, but has to be running at 06:00 Monday morning.
[02:30:14] <robin_sz> ah yes
[02:30:57] <LawrenceG> sounds like you are pulling an "all nighter"
[02:31:03] <robin_sz> me, nah
[02:31:06] <robin_sz> at home relaxing
[02:32:15] <robin_sz> normal hours here ;)
[02:33:33] <LawrenceG> nice big servo.... what type of drive? an old scr version?
[02:33:48] <robin_sz> dunno :) bosch indramat
[02:34:20] <robin_sz> 380V
[02:34:51] <robin_sz> probbly scrs
[02:36:44] <LawrenceG> most of the sawmill stuff I played with was hydraulic servos... fast and scary.... some of the drives were >75kw
[02:36:53] <robin_sz> wow
[02:37:15] <LawrenceG> all controlled with +-50ma hydraulic servo valve
[02:37:16] <robin_sz> thats jmk territory ;)
[02:38:11] <LawrenceG> hydraulics are interesting.... big pumps, big pipes and a hell of a mess when you screw up!
[02:38:13] <robin_sz> those hyd servo valves are cute
[02:38:49] <robin_sz> but expensive
[02:39:10] <robin_sz> saw a big old cnc punch press scrapped becasue the servo valve had failed
[02:39:41] <robin_sz> wasnt that old
[02:40:24] <robin_sz> they use a servo to bring the punch head down real quick to the metal
[02:40:32] <robin_sz> then push it through more slowly
[02:40:37] <robin_sz> keeps the noise down
[02:41:01] <LawrenceG> I really liked the hydraulic pumps that had a small servo on them that adjusted the swash plate... a little tiny signal controlled huge drives
[02:41:15] <robin_sz> wow
[02:41:18] <robin_sz> impressive
[02:41:39] <robin_sz> this is electric pump feeding hydraulic motor?
[02:41:46] <LawrenceG> you play with lasers?
[02:41:52] <robin_sz> yeah, i do ;)
[02:42:13] <robin_sz> mid-size ones
[02:42:47] <eric_U> how hard can it be to replace a servo valve, I got a couple in my junk drawer at work that would have done the trick
[02:42:54] <LawrenceG> must be very interesting..... I dont know of anyone around here that has one... the lasers I worked with were about 5mw used for scanning lumber sizes
[02:43:03] <robin_sz> mmm
[02:43:11] <robin_sz> mine are kind 1 to 2 kw
[02:43:11] <LawrenceG> no smoke!
[02:43:41] <robin_sz> eric_U: new servo valve was 8K gbp
[02:44:16] <robin_sz> eric_U: and about the size of two bricks
[02:44:18] <LawrenceG> about 10 years ago they were approx. 2k5 here
[02:44:29] <eric_U> I believe it, the small ones are 3k-5k
[02:44:33] <LawrenceG> for the 1 brick size :}
[02:44:41] <robin_sz> guess they come in various sizes
[02:44:43] <eric_U> I actually have one that takes one of the small ones to drive it
[02:44:44] <robin_sz> 1 brick
[02:44:54] <robin_sz> heh
[02:45:07] <eric_U> it's at least 2 bricks
[02:45:20] <robin_sz> this one was optimized for high flows
[02:45:44] <robin_sz> 100mm piston, 100mm stroke
[02:45:57] <robin_sz> 200 blows per minute
[02:46:18] <robin_sz> mayeb not 100m piston, perhaps 80
[02:46:18] <eric_U> the one I have was on a machine that was for one shot deals, very fast
[02:46:36] <eric_U> but the valve itself had a big cycle rate
[02:47:08] <eric_U> I have a machine that runs at 200Hz, but I don't think it would apply what you would call a "blow" at that rate
[02:50:30] <eric_U> I still have oil on the ceiling of my lab from when I was learning how to shut down a hydraulic system
[02:51:13] <eric_U> if you hit the estop, a big pulse of oil heads back to the tank, blows out your 200psi max pressure oil filter
[02:52:39] <eric_U> the hydraulic oil I use nominally looks a fairly golden color at rest
[02:52:53] <SWPadnos> I wonder if there is an e-stop on a tank turret
[02:52:57] <eric_U> it has this strange green color when it's spraying everywhere under pressure
[02:53:10] <SWPadnos> on the M1, the turret is moved by a big hydraulic motor
[02:53:25] <eric_U> I never really had time to watch and appreciate why that might be, however
[02:53:31] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:53:57] <SWPadnos> oxidization?
[02:54:18] <eric_U> maybe, seems like it would be awfully fast oxidation though
[02:54:40] <SWPadnos> index of refraction of the translucent/transparent parts of the hydraulic system?
[02:54:40] <LawrenceG> its the krytonite
[02:54:54] <SWPadnos> golden before it's used, or while in the system?
[02:54:57] <eric_U> I always thought it probably was what amounts to foaming
[02:55:11] <eric_U> it does get a little darker with use
[02:55:43] <eric_U> I know there is no estop on the f-16
[02:55:49] <eric_U> there is an off switch though
[02:56:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:56:15] <SWPadnos> rookie to pilot "hey, what does this button do?"
[02:56:20] <SWPadnos> nonononononono!
[02:56:56] <eric_U> there was a guard over the switch that turns the gas off to the engine, but that didn't stop them from flipping the switch
[02:57:43] <eric_U> so they wired it down
[02:58:00] <SWPadnos> which makes you wonder what the point of having it is
[02:58:32] <eric_U> the story of the switch and valve is so complicated, I know I couldn't tell you all the permutations that I saw correctly
[02:58:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:58:51] <SWPadnos> that's OK, I think I might go to bed sometime soon :)
[02:59:23] <eric_U> being able to turn off the gas to your airplane's only engine is both a really good idea, and a really bad idea
[02:59:34] <eric_U> depending on your situation
[02:59:57] <SWPadnos> like most things, it's not the tool but how you use it
[03:00:00] <eric_U> but that's why I'm on the ground where it's safe
[03:09:25] <maddash> SWPadnos: do you know anything about Rabbit ISRs?
[03:09:33] <SWPadnos> not much
[03:10:46] <maddash> too bad; I've just wasted a second day debugging my board
[03:10:59] <SWPadnos> a board with a rabbit?
[03:11:27] <SWPadnos> you can download the assembly source to the G-Rex rabbit code (the GeckoMotion version, not the Mach version)
[03:11:35] <SWPadnos> there should be some good info in there
[03:13:03] <robin_sz> * robin_sz still has the EMC version of the grex stuff
[03:13:23] <SWPadnos> yep, that's on the gecko group as well
[03:13:29] <robin_sz> no its not
[03:13:31] <SWPadnos> I think SH even updated it within the last year
[03:13:36] <robin_sz> oh
[03:13:40] <SWPadnos> I think it is, I can look again
[03:13:43] <robin_sz> they removed the folder a while back
[03:14:03] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I thought it was in with the firmware
[03:14:07] <robin_sz> hmmm
[03:14:11] <SWPadnos> oh, there's the library now, so who knows
[03:14:16] <robin_sz> not source too i dont think
[03:14:20] <robin_sz> or the gui
[03:14:28] <SWPadnos> could be
[03:15:30] <maddash> SWPadnos: which source? I just looked at the G100 installation zip. The source directory consists entirely of a header file.
[03:15:54] <SWPadnos> it's called GeckoMotion Source Code.zip
[03:16:03] <SWPadnos> in the g100 and G101 directory
[03:17:27] <SWPadnos> library source (don't know how complete) is in the folder files -> G100 and G101 -> Firmware -> RCM3xxx
[03:17:46] <maddash> on the yahoo groups page?
[03:17:51] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:18:13] <SWPadnos> I don't think that library source will be useful to you for the Rabbit
[03:18:23] <SWPadnos> I think it's the PC side, but it may have the rabbit code too
[03:19:34] <maddash> ooh, pretty
[03:19:44] <maddash> thanks, swp
[03:19:49] <SWPadnos> sure
[03:20:01] <SWPadnos> that's wher eI've learned everything I know about the Rabbits :)
[03:20:12] <SWPadnos> (other than looking at the Dynamic C dics and such)
[03:20:15] <SWPadnos> err - docs
[03:20:41] <SWPadnos> robin_sz, did you catch the info about the G380 drive?
[03:23:36] <eric_U> what is the question about rabbit ISR's?
[03:24:24] <maddash> me?
[03:24:57] <eric_U> did you have a question about rabbit ISRs?
[03:27:14] <maddash> yeah. why the heck do they cause a "bad packet" error when the ISR contents are too long?
[03:27:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:27:38] <SWPadnos> because of communications overruns or underruns probably
[03:27:43] <eric_U> prolly because their buffer is too small
[03:27:56] <maddash> and by "too long," I mean anything longer than "int b=0; for (int u=0;u<12;u++) b++;"
[03:28:36] <eric_U> you have that code in an ISR?
[03:28:39] <maddash> or, if I'm using a timer to cause the interrupts, I can't set to timer to anything above the main oscillator/2
[03:28:49] <maddash> es, I have that code in an ISR
[03:29:09] <eric_U> it's possible that you are causing a memory switch
[03:29:11] <maddash> ell, not verbatim
[03:29:14] <eric_U> takes forever
[03:29:38] <maddash> "memory switch"? like, into xmem or something?
[03:29:44] <SWPadnos> the Rabbit uses at least 2 cycles for every instruction, with the possible exception of NOP (but I think that also takes 2)
[03:29:45] <eric_U> they swap devices
[03:30:12] <SWPadnos> so there's no way to interrupt every clock tick
[03:30:19] <SWPadnos> (or every instruction cycle either, for that matter)
[03:31:17] <eric_U> that would be an incredibly efficient context switch
[03:31:20] <maddash> SWPadnos: I'm not interrupting every clock tick; I'm setting the timer to count down by one every clock tick (as opposed to every other tick)
[03:32:11] <eric_U> goodness knows what kind of mess they have inside that chip
[03:32:14] <SWPadnos> I don't know if the timer just counts on machine cycles vs. clock cycles, or if they prevent you from counting such that the interrupt might happen in the odd phase of a machine cycle
[03:32:22] <eric_U> they started out as a board house
[03:32:44] <SWPadnos> yeah, then they bastardized the already-bastardized Z80
[03:33:06] <eric_U> woulda been nice if they regularized the opcodes a little
[03:33:58] <SWPadnos> heh - even better - they kept the code binary-compatible, except for the instructions they removed, the ones they added, and the ones they changed :)
[03:34:00] <eric_U> since they changed the assy language a little
[03:34:37] <eric_U> I didn't know there was any compatibility
[03:34:45] <maddash> I think this might be some buffer problem. If I append to the end of the ISR an instruction to disable any further interrupts, the code runs fine
[03:34:47] <eric_U> other than at the assembly level
[03:35:01] <SWPadnos> I think it's supposed to be binary-compatible, but you may be right about it
[03:35:32] <eric_U> didn't matter to me, the modules have almost everything I needed except a radio and my outboard circuits
[03:35:35] <maddash> I'm about to jump out a window or buy that Rabbit 3000 book, neither of which I really want to do
[03:35:54] <eric_U> book, heh
[03:36:04] <SWPadnos> you could also look at the dynamic C help/examples
[03:36:30] <eric_U> strange that further interrupts is a problem
[03:36:46] <SWPadnos> is the C function declared as an interrupt function?
[03:36:52] <SWPadnos> a RET in there would be a bad thing
[03:36:58] <SWPadnos> vs an IRET or whatever
[03:37:25] <eric_U> you probably can't get it to work otherwise
[03:37:29] <maddash> yep. want to see the source? it's impeccably pristine.
[03:37:37] <eric_U> sur
[03:37:39] <eric_U> e
[03:37:52] <SWPadnos> heh - not really, just throwing out suggestions based on years of experience with everything but the Rabbit :)
[03:38:21] <robin_sz> i use rabbit a bit
[03:38:25] <eric_U> I was surprised how easily I wrote my program with it
[03:38:29] <robin_sz> find them mostly easy to use
[03:38:37] <eric_U> I had trouble with the radio, not rabbit's fault
[03:39:04] <robin_sz> the dynamic C compiler / IDE thing is a bit ...
[03:39:06] <robin_sz> clunky
[03:40:02] <SWPadnos> and annoyingly Windows-only and relatively expensive for a uC C package
[03:40:13] <maddash> this might be one of those "chocolate factory" moments
[03:40:38] <SWPadnos> you're going to expand like a giant blueberry?
[03:41:01] <eric_U> mmm, chocolate
[03:41:39] <maddash> o, I meant jepler's I love Lucy clip
[03:41:53] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:42:00] <maddash> the analogy he gave when I asked about setting BASE_PERIOD too low
[03:42:00] <eric_U> what happened?
[03:42:06] <SWPadnos> that reminds me - I should go to the store
[03:42:18] <eric_U> pick up some ice cream for me
[03:42:22] <SWPadnos> sounds like the interrupt rate was too fast
[03:42:23] <eric_U> and beer
[03:42:28] <SWPadnos> ewww
[03:42:40] <maddash> eric_U: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2151128672389072724
[03:42:46] <eric_U> 30 minute delay
[03:42:52] <robin_sz> ive had dynamic C run under Wine
[03:43:06] <SWPadnos> robin_sz, including the programmer?
[03:43:16] <robin_sz> * robin_sz scratches head
[03:43:24] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos bets not
[03:43:28] <robin_sz> can;t honestly remember
[03:43:37] <robin_sz> its only serial port chat
[03:43:44] <eric_U> should work
[03:43:49] <SWPadnos> that's what I've heard was the main problem (other than the $300 or whatever it costs these days)
[03:43:53] <robin_sz> most things work ok under wine ith serial ports
[03:44:07] <robin_sz> persoanlly, I just use it under Xp anyway
[03:44:11] <SWPadnos> that's exactly the opposite of what I've experienced, and what the Wine docs say
[03:44:18] <eric_U> yeesh $300?
[03:44:24] <robin_sz> cheap
[03:44:31] <maddash> robin_sz: DC IDE doesn't work under wine
[03:44:38] <SWPadnos> I just tried to use software I wrote, which uses high-level serial only, and it didn't work at all, so I looked into it recently
[03:44:47] <maddash> not the compiling and loading, anyway
[03:44:49] <eric_U> nothing works under wine on this computer
[03:44:57] <robin_sz> maddash: right, maybe that then
[03:44:58] <eric_U> stupid drivers
[03:45:03] <eric_U> video
[03:45:06] <SWPadnos> I've gotten WinZip installed onto one PC (under Ubuntu 64, which is cool)
[03:45:16] <robin_sz> I just swtiched back to XP about 4 months ago
[03:45:28] <SWPadnos> I haven't gotten through the issues of installing the MSI installer, so I can install real applications, like Altium
[03:45:47] <robin_sz> gave up trying to get the laptop to connect to wireless router under linux
[03:45:52] <fenn> * fenn is watching a chocolate factory documentary
[03:45:57] <SWPadnos> oh, that's trivial these days
[03:46:03] <robin_sz> yeah right
[03:46:20] <fenn> its trivial unless you dont have the driver
[03:46:25] <robin_sz> tecnically, its possible
[03:46:26] <SWPadnos> I installed Ubuntu 7.10 on my new laptop, and the only things that don't work are the fingerprint scanner and the camera
[03:46:26] <eric_U> I wasted about 2 weeks on wireless
[03:46:45] <eric_U> depends on your wireless interface
[03:46:48] <robin_sz> but .. wpa_supplicant is SO badly documented, only the author stands a chance
[03:46:49] <eric_U> some work out of the box
[03:46:55] <maddash> SWPadnos: which laptop is this?
[03:47:00] <SWPadnos> M-Tech
[03:47:02] <eric_U> some require kernel hacking
[03:47:04] <SWPadnos> M570u
[03:47:10] <SWPadnos> http://www.mtechlaptops.com/
[03:47:17] <robin_sz> I tried for a couple of weeks and gave up
[03:47:24] <maddash> SWPadnos: err, I meant, which fingerprint scanner -- there might be a driver for it
[03:47:27] <eric_U> robin, which wireless?
[03:47:29] <SWPadnos> it was much harder in Ubuntu 7.04
[03:47:50] <SWPadnos> oh - I don't recall the USB ID, but there isn't really a driver for it - it's just a dumb scanner
[03:47:55] <SWPadnos> no smarts in the chip
[03:47:56] <robin_sz> i can now manauly configure the interface and get wpa_supplicant to do its thing
[03:48:03] <robin_sz> but, not automagically yet
[03:48:29] <eric_U> I set up a usb wireless on an embedded computer for war driving
[03:48:47] <eric_U> we were going to put it on a robot and let it find hot spots for us
[03:48:59] <SWPadnos> I should test some more - I think I'll be carrying this one on my next couple of business trips - the 17" 1920x1200 screen is much nicer than my old one (not to mention the core 2 duo 2.2 GHz vs. P3-1GHz)
[03:49:05] <maddash> robin_sz: actually, wpa_supplicant has a little interface with /etc/networks
[03:49:23] <robin_sz> and its documented where exactly?
[03:50:23] <eric_U> SWPadnos: how much did your laptop cost you?
[03:50:37] <SWPadnos> about $2000 -2200 - I don't remember exactly
[03:50:49] <robin_sz> I eventually found by trial and error the right combination of options in the wpa-supplicant config, for scanning etc
[03:50:55] <maddash> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-150835.html
[03:50:57] <robin_sz> to get it to work with my router
[03:51:14] <fenn> what's this wpa-supplicant stuff? i've never had to use that
[03:51:31] <eric_U> you have to bow down to the wpa
[03:51:45] <robin_sz> you use wpa encrytion on your wifi?
[03:51:50] <eric_U> fenn: have you used wpa encryption?
[03:52:03] <fenn> no, wtf is the point of that?
[03:52:17] <eric_U> so your neighbor can't read your email?
[03:52:17] <fenn> i use ssh for everything
[03:52:27] <robin_sz> eh?
[03:52:39] <robin_sz> hardly the same ting
[03:52:58] <robin_sz> how do you protect your local wireless network?
[03:53:01] <robin_sz> or leave it open?
[03:53:04] <fenn> um.. distance
[03:53:05] <eric_U> how do you download porn with ssh?
[03:53:16] <eric_U> distance is good
[03:53:20] <robin_sz> ah well , yes, distance is good
[03:53:46] <robin_sz> heh .. love it ...
[03:53:59] <robin_sz> Please have a look
[03:53:59] <robin_sz> at /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/wpasupplicant to learn about the other ones
[03:54:01] <eric_U> SWPadnos: what did you add to your comp that cost you $900 over the low end config
[03:54:10] <robin_sz> so, even the docs say "read the code"
[03:54:30] <maddash> fenn: silly. ssh is meaningless over an unencrypted/weakly-encrypted netowork.
[03:54:45] <fenn> uhhuh
[03:54:58] <eric_U> it used to be that nobody but us had wireless, now there are at least 2 or 3 others
[03:55:11] <eric_U> we were all on channel 6
[03:55:45] <fenn> eric_U: re: porn, you can set up a VPN to a server with a wired connection to your access point
[03:55:46] <eric_U> I have kismet on this computer, haven't logged any packets from my neighbors yet though
[04:06:31] <maddash> fuck...this...
[04:08:17] <jmkasunich> bye
[04:18:35] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: any threading yet?
[04:19:23] <jmkasunich> yep, got it working last night
[04:19:27] <skunkworks> cool
[04:20:14] <skunkworks> just went skiing for the last 4 hours. I am not in shape.
[04:20:33] <eric_U> snow, that would be nice
[04:20:54] <skunkworks> heh - it was a little bit of powder on ice. Fun and fast.
[04:20:56] <eric_U> we are going to have to officially raise the freezing temp of water
[04:21:12] <eric_U> I hate ice
[04:21:46] <skunkworks> we take what we get.
[04:22:05] <eric_U> our snow melted, so I guess I would too
[04:24:26] <SWPadnos__> SWPadnos__ is now known as SWPadnos
[04:26:07] <SWPadnos> I guess I should stop playing with the wireless settings on my router, huh?
[04:26:36] <cradek> sounds like a fun friday evening at home
[04:26:50] <SWPadnos> oh, it's a blast
[04:26:56] <eric_U> I always type "/etc/init.d/network stop,", hit enter, and then slap my forehead
[04:27:14] <cradek> I watched a coworker do that
[04:27:23] <cradek> I was halfway through saying "You don't want to do that" when he hit enter
[04:27:36] <eric_U> restart works sometimes
[04:28:28] <cradek> not when the machine is across town
[04:29:25] <eric_U> same problem here, mobile robot, if the worst happens you have to set up a monitor and keyboard on the robot itself
[04:29:41] <eric_U> with restart you just reconnect
[04:29:42] <SWPadnos> well, my router is a linksys, so it's a little different :)
[04:30:04] <eric_U> network stop is always a bad thing, however
[04:32:25] <skunkworks> SWPadno: you haven't updated it to an 'alternative' firmware?
[04:34:09] <skunkworks> this is very 'art deco' http://img43.photobucket.com/albums/v132/rniemi/milwaukeematic-mill.jpg
[04:34:39] <cradek> it looks like a deranged medical robot
[04:34:42] <SWPadnos> well, actually it's a netgear
[04:34:47] <jmkasunich> has a 50s or 60s look about it
[04:35:02] <SWPadnos> I AM TOBOR!
[04:35:12] <skunkworks> danger! danger!
[04:35:19] <eric_U> more 70's or 80's
[04:35:27] <eric_U> industrial equipment is a little behind
[04:35:31] <cradek> hey you're threading now?
[04:35:38] <jmkasunich> yep
[04:35:49] <jmkasunich> 3/8-16 in drill rod even
[04:35:52] <cradek> is it a little easier than before?
[04:36:00] <jmkasunich> a bi
[04:36:01] <jmkasunich> t
[04:36:07] <cradek> you didn't even have compound slide did you?
[04:36:15] <jmkasunich> nope
[04:36:47] <cradek> yikes I bet it didn't want to thread much then
[04:36:53] <SWPadnos> oh great - one more router restart, then maybe one more to turn it off :)
[04:37:08] <jmkasunich> I did _very_ little threading
[04:37:28] <jmkasunich> I could probably count the threading jobs that I have done on my fingers
[04:37:34] <jmkasunich> and I've had the machine 9 years
[04:37:46] <cradek> I did exactly two threads on my sherline before it was cnc
[04:37:54] <cradek> same problems (no compound)
[04:37:59] <jmkasunich> I did a few more than that
[04:38:06] <jmkasunich> the lack of a compound is the least of it
[04:38:13] <cradek> they were both metric, one was left-hand metric
[04:38:17] <eric_U> what does the compound do for you?
[04:38:28] <cradek> eric_U: cuts just one side of the thread - really helps
[04:38:37] <eric_U> thanks
[04:38:46] <cradek> otherwise you have to plunge straight in, cutting the whole V at once
[04:38:48] <jmkasunich> lack of half nut, and inability to reverse the motor without blowing out the start caps, means I did everything by turning the spindle by hand
[04:38:52] <eric_U> makes sense
[04:38:54] <cradek> the chips can't get out because they smash into each other
[04:39:11] <cradek> jmkasunich: yarggh
[04:39:26] <eric_U> my learning disabilities made threading difficult
[04:39:35] <jmkasunich> it was quite nice to stand and watch it threading at 580 RPM
[04:39:48] <eric_U> get most of the way done, and some distraction, then crash
[04:40:13] <cradek> jmkasunich: does a nut fit?
[04:40:18] <jmkasunich> yes
[04:40:24] <cradek> yay
[04:40:43] <jmkasunich> it took several test threads to get the touch-off right
[04:40:47] <SWPadnos__> SWPadnos__ is now known as SWPadnos
[04:41:04] <cradek> threading is my favorite thing I've done in emc2
[04:42:06] <cradek> hope you can get reproducable positioning so you can cut them in one try
[04:42:21] <cradek> if you have that, it's much easier than using a die
[04:42:35] <jmkasunich> well what I have right now isn't reproducable at all
[04:43:51] <jmkasunich> carbide inserted threading tool that my dad gave me
[04:44:05] <jmkasunich> it has a 1" square shank, which is way too big for any toolholder
[04:44:17] <cradek> wow that's big
[04:44:24] <cradek> what was it for?
[04:44:28] <jmkasunich> I set it up on a pair of step blocks and clamped it down as if it was a milling workpiece
[04:44:40] <jmkasunich> he worked as a machinist in a steel mill for 40 years
[04:44:50] <jmkasunich> for him a 12" lathe was small
[04:45:13] <cradek> maybe you can cut your 3/8-16 in one pass + one spring pass with it :-)
[04:45:37] <jmkasunich> I bet the tool could take it, but the machine would probably stall (slip the belts)
[04:45:38] <skunkworks> yikes
[04:45:56] <skunkworks> it might take more than one spring pass. ;)
[04:46:46] <skunkworks> exp when the 3/8 shaft starts wrapping up the tool
[04:47:15] <skunkworks> walking up..
[04:48:10] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/threading-tool-1833.jpg
[04:48:20] <cradek> sometime you should take a picture of your encoder mounted with that rigup you made
[04:49:22] <skunkworks> is your encoder run with a timing belt?
[04:49:22] <cradek> that's a clever setup for adjusting the height
[04:49:49] <cradek> hey I got my boring head today (the right one this time)! whee
[04:50:09] <cradek> that will make bearing seats easy (once it's set up)
[04:53:31] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/belt-box-1835.jpg
[04:53:35] <jmkasunich> encoder mount
[04:53:45] <jmkasunich> also spindle drivetrain, and X axis
[04:53:52] <jmkasunich> (Z when lathing)
[04:55:22] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: what is the encoder actually being driven by?
[04:55:24] <cradek> what is the encoder belt on? it can't be the spindle, it's tiny
[04:55:34] <skunkworks> heh
[04:55:38] <jmkasunich> its where the stud gear used to be
[04:55:46] <jmkasunich> the spindle is the big pulley above
[04:56:08] <cradek> what is a stud gear?
[04:56:18] <jmkasunich> there is shiftable 1/2 or 1/4 speed gearing inside the headstock, driving the stud gear
[04:56:24] <cradek> did change gears go in here?
[04:56:35] <jmkasunich> then changed gears would go between the stud gear and the leadscrew
[04:56:40] <cradek> oh ok, got it
[04:57:11] <cradek> (so you're cutting any error in those gears into your threads)
[04:57:12] <fenn> wonder why they even put gears on it without a split nut
[04:57:19] <skunkworks> how much gear lash between the spindle and the stud gear?
[04:57:37] <jmkasunich> the pivot that the encoder bracket is on, and the bolt in the slot, were both used to support a bracket that held the change gears
[04:57:43] <cradek> doesn't matter if it doesn't reverse does it?
[04:57:52] <jmkasunich> what he said
[04:57:57] <skunkworks> I would wonder about chatter..
[04:58:02] <jmkasunich> there is some, but it doesn't matter
[04:58:06] <skunkworks> one getting ahead of the other.
[04:58:24] <skunkworks> but I worry about odd things.
[04:58:31] <jmkasunich> you'd have to have either a very jerky load on the belt (it isn't - the encoder is very smooth) or very abrupt speed changes on the spindle
[04:58:31] <cradek> you'd hear it in the Z motor if it was not smooth
[04:59:06] <fenn> jmkasunich: so you feed straight into the thread if you dont have a compound?
[04:59:07] <jmkasunich> in the long run I intend to belt directly to the spindle
[04:59:18] <jmkasunich> fenn: on a manual lathe, yes
[04:59:47] <fenn> * fenn couldnt remember the past tense of 'feed'
[04:59:51] <jmkasunich> the half-nut always engages in the same spot on the Z axis (relative to the thread)
[05:00:16] <jmkasunich> cradek: I just remembered, I do have a compound for the shoptask
[05:00:21] <LawrenceG> hi guys... I need to know how to do this.... net tool-vel motion.current-vel pyvcp.tool-velocity where motion.current-vel is a parameter (which causes an error)
[05:00:26] <jmkasunich> and I'm pretty sure I used it for threading
[05:00:54] <jmkasunich> X for in/out (per pass, always return to the same value) and compound to advance for each pass
[05:01:10] <LawrenceG> net connects signals and pins.... how do I get the r/o param
[05:01:11] <jmkasunich> LawrenceG: you can't do that
[05:01:16] <cradek> LawrenceG: well you can't hook a param to a net, not much you can do about it
[05:01:50] <fenn> i thought there was some comp that turned a param into a pin
[05:01:51] <LawrenceG> I can watch it.... I want py panel stuff to display it
[05:02:16] <jmkasunich> to use the electrical analogy for HAL comps, pins are the screw terminals on an analog servo amp... params are the trimpots and testpoints - not intended to be connected to anything
[05:02:16] <cradek> LawrenceG: you do know AXIS displays it right?
[05:02:34] <LawrenceG> yes...
[05:02:47] <cradek> LawrenceG: it will also display it in the correct units which will be a pain in your panel
[05:02:57] <cradek> (ok just checking)
[05:04:10] <jmkasunich> LawrenceG: other people have had similar issues - wanting to connect a param to something else
[05:04:18] <cradek> it would be neat to make a youtube video of your larger emc machine threading. just my and LH's little ones are all we have on there
[05:04:27] <jmkasunich> and we've discussed changing all params to pins
[05:04:32] <jmkasunich> but haven't made that decision yet
[05:04:46] <jmkasunich> cradek: I'd volunteer, but I don't have a video capable camera
[05:04:49] <cradek> you could fairly easily change it in your copy if you want to build your own emc
[05:05:17] <fenn> i'd like to see some of stustev's machines in action
[05:05:17] <LawrenceG> scanning the comp list.... can comps access param easily?
[05:05:39] <jmkasunich> comps are no different than any other hal component
[05:05:45] <jmkasunich> pins are pins, and params are params
[05:05:46] <cradek> fenn: I promise you will see videos of the G&L if I have to go take them myself
[05:06:00] <jmkasunich> cradek: what G&L?
[05:06:10] <LawrenceG> just need a param in and pin out?
[05:06:14] <fenn> jmkasunich: (2.5MB) http://www.mpm1.com:8080/machines/GandL/S1030182.JPG
[05:06:36] <cradek> yeah that one
[05:07:00] <jmkasunich> LawrenceG: you'd need to do much crufty hacking to build a component that accessed another components parameter
[05:07:13] <jmkasunich> better to hack the original component and change its param to a pin
[05:07:30] <LawrenceG> crufty .. crusty.. it is Friday night
[05:08:19] <LawrenceG> thanks for the help... at least I havent lost too many brain cells over it
[05:08:24] <jmkasunich> grep in emc/motion/motion.c for "current-vel"
[05:09:07] <jmkasunich> you'll find a call to hal_pin_new
[05:09:13] <jmkasunich> you need to change that to hal_param_new
[05:09:16] <jmkasunich> oops, vice versa
[05:09:42] <jmkasunich> you also need to change the actual storage from a value, to a pointer to a value
[05:09:51] <jmkasunich> and change all references to it to pointer references
[05:10:09] <jmkasunich> the G&L link timed out
[05:10:13] <jmkasunich> where is mem1.com?
[05:10:26] <cradek> worked for me when I tried again just now
[05:10:54] <jmkasunich> loaded ok on retry
[05:10:54] <cradek> I think their dns has bogons
[05:10:54] <jmkasunich> horizontal boring mill, eh?
[05:11:02] <jmkasunich> where is that?
[05:11:03] <cradek> http://www.mpm1.com:8080/machines/viper-BCbridge/S1030246.JPG
[05:11:18] <jmkasunich> is that stuart's shop?
[05:11:37] <cradek> yes
[05:11:37] <cradek> wichita
[05:12:29] <jmkasunich> viper is 5 axis isn't it?
[05:12:38] <cradek> yes
[05:13:01] <cradek> that's the one he's built the matching simulation for
[05:13:27] <jmkasunich> thats a beast
[05:13:54] <cradek> I don't know if it's the next project or not, but it sounds like it's on the list
[05:15:33] <fenn> viper seems like an odd name for a machine tool
[05:16:26] <jmkasunich> when the head starts turning around and tilting up and down, I supposed with some imagination it could look like a snake
[05:19:49] <eric_U> I take it the head rotates around the vertical axis, but It's hard to see from here
[05:20:05] <cradek> yes it does
[05:20:10] <cradek> that's C
[05:22:51] <eric_U> it's funny, I'm looking at that thing, thinking about what I could do with it, and I've reached the conclusion it's not quite big enough
[05:25:26] <JymmmEMC> eric_U: Well, you COULD make a larger one using MDF, roller skating bearings, and acme rod
[05:26:09] <eric_U> yes, I was thinking that the way covers on the gantry could be useful for an entire machine
[05:26:46] <JymmmEMC> eric_U: Oh, and a 357 from a 67 ford pickup for the spindle =)
[05:28:38] <JymmmEMC> whats the resolution on that thing anyway?
[05:29:20] <fenn> higher than necessary, i bet
[05:31:50] <cradek> probably .0001 and it can actually cut to .0005 - .001
[05:31:57] <cradek> (just guessing)
[05:34:13] <SWPadnos__> SWPadnos__ is now known as SWPadnos
[05:52:43] <SWPadnos__> SWPadnos__ is now known as SWPadnos
[06:26:06] <scutsxg> hi,anybody?
[11:46:59] <micges> hi
[12:04:26] <alex_joni> hi
[12:22:49] <micges> alex_joni: could you tell my what part of EMC you wrote ?
[12:23:16] <micges> or fix/clean
[13:04:25] <micges> bye
[14:54:42] <Ziegler> LOL http://xkcd.com/356/
[15:45:24] <stustev> good morning
[15:47:44] <SWPadnos> howdy
[15:49:57] <stustev> might quiet today
[15:50:07] <stustev> s/might/mighty
[15:50:15] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:51:14] <stustev> your responses sound like a cowboy - you don't look like one
[15:51:47] <SWPadnos> heh - it's funny. I was just thinking about the interview with Peter Fonda yesterday, talking about "3:10 to Yuma"
[15:52:02] <SWPadnos> and other cowboy things (I think they said his father was John Wayne :) )
[15:53:35] <stustev> did I see where you got more monitors?
[15:53:54] <SWPadnos> err - I don't understand the question
[15:54:00] <SWPadnos> I had a monitor die recently
[15:54:28] <stustev> not as it probation - as in computers - I saw some conversation about purchasing a new monitor
[15:54:54] <SWPadnos> oh - I have a new laptop (in the last couple of months anyway), but no new monitors
[15:55:21] <SWPadnos> there was a short discussion about the higher resolution and size of the new one (17" 1920x1200)
[15:55:23] <stustev> maybe that's what it was - you got a 17 inch wides creen laptop
[15:55:29] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:55:45] <stustev> OK
[15:56:03] <stustev> will linux drive it?
[15:56:22] <SWPadnos> yep - everything but the fingerprint scanner and camera
[15:56:24] <SWPadnos> (so far)
[15:56:44] <SWPadnos> I didn't even try installing Windows - went straight for Gutsy beta
[15:57:32] <stustev> very good - do you have prospects to drive the scanner and camera?
[15:58:28] <SWPadnos> yes, there are projects for both, I just haven't bothered with them
[15:58:54] <stustev> you probably don't require the scanner - the camera would be nice
[15:59:17] <SWPadnos> I fiddled around with wi-fi a bit and the driver works (out of the box), but I wasn't able to connect to my router
[15:59:25] <SWPadnos> I \haven't tried it with my Windows laptop yet
[15:59:43] <stustev> you said you didn't even try to install Windows. did you purchase it without an operating system?
[16:00:06] <SWPadnos> oh, the camera is one of those webcam things just above the LCD - it's not useful for anything other than a webcam/conference cam
[16:00:22] <SWPadnos> yes, I got it without an OS
[16:00:40] <SWPadnos> http://www.mtechlaptops.com
[16:01:24] <stustev> I have a webcam on top of my monitor. I thought it would be good to use. I haven't done any web conferencing. Doesn't seem to be much need.
[16:01:31] <SWPadnos> nope
[16:02:03] <stustev> nice looking machine
[16:02:40] <SWPadnos> yep - I got the M570 - a good one, though a little heavy
[16:03:18] <stustev> bbl - I am installing the software on the G&L. It is running the apt-get build-dep emc2 atm.
[16:03:30] <SWPadnos> heh - enjoy
[16:03:33] <SWPadnos> and take pictures ;)
[16:03:49] <SWPadnos> well, not of the software isntall, we've seen that
[16:05:42] <archivist> SWPadnos, weve seen the machine http://www.mpm1.com:8080/machines/GandL
[16:05:52] <SWPadnos> yeah - more pictures :)
[16:06:15] <archivist> yup when it eats metal!
[16:13:40] <anonimasu> :)
[16:48:33] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: *sigh* "Can't intialize, make sure directX6.0 ot higher is installed" Version: 9.0c
[16:52:26] <BigJohnT> SWPadnos: G43 works as a spindle offset when using a lathe tool table... COOL
[16:52:39] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, hmmm. bummer.
[16:52:58] <SWPadnos> don't let a lack of tools prevent you from getting the diagrams done - that's not a real problem
[16:53:04] <SWPadnos> you can use paper just as well as a PC
[16:53:15] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Trying a reinstall
[16:53:15] <SWPadnos> BigJohnT, cool! thank cradek for that, he did it :)
[16:53:32] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Before you suggested that proggy, that was my intensions.
[16:53:42] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, OK, but remember - it's not a real problem. you should see all the paper drawings I have for my phase converter :)
[16:53:45] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:53:46] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I have a scanner =)
[16:53:47] <BigJohnT> cradek: G43 works! THANKS
[16:53:50] <SWPadnos> don't blame it on me ;)
[16:53:56] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: why not?
[16:54:12] <SWPadnos> because I'll have to kick your ass when I get there if you do! :)
[16:54:34] <SWPadnos> and you won't be invited to Palace BBQ
[16:54:43] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Hey, you didn't say you were bringing Mom along with ya ;)
[16:54:46] <SWPadnos> let alone House of Prime Rib
[16:54:48] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:55:28] <SWPadnos> I'll bring you an EMC2 liveCD even - I'm so nice
[16:55:44] <SWPadnos> gotta run though - it's breakfast time
[16:57:27] <JymmmEMC> hasta
[16:57:40] <SWPadnos> one more thing - did you take a look at kivio?
[16:57:51] <SWPadnos> it's like the pre-microsoft visio
[16:58:28] <SWPadnos> at least things maintain connections when you move them around - that's the main advantage of a computer-based wiring program
[17:07:17] <fenn> m-tech has a pretty funny website
[17:07:18] <BigJohnT> SWPadnos: is kivio easier to use than the openoffice draw
[17:07:30] <SWPadnos> I have no idea, I just remembered that it exists :)
[17:07:35] <BigJohnT> ok
[17:07:40] <SWPadnos> never used it (or visio, since version 1 or 2)
[17:07:57] <BigJohnT> what do you use for electrical drawings?
[17:08:05] <SWPadnos> Altium Designer
[17:08:41] <SWPadnos> but I haven't found anything (including Altium) that I really like for cabinet wiring diagrams
[17:08:48] <fenn> BigJohnT: if you have to ask how much Altium costs, you can't afford it
[17:08:54] <SWPadnos> I'll have to mention that to them afaon
[17:08:55] <jmkasunich> this is a funny picture: http://www.mpm1.com:8080/machines/viper-BCbridge/S1030247.JPG
[17:08:56] <cradek> I use Mirado Warrior, very affordable and flexible
[17:08:58] <SWPadnos> again
[17:09:19] <jmkasunich> 5000 pound head, 50000 pound machine, and it looks like it has a 1/4" endmill in it
[17:09:22] <BigJohnT> kinda like SolidWorks If you have to ask the price you can't afford it
[17:09:22] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, yeah - I was that one - kind of an undersized tool there, huh? :)
[17:09:28] <SWPadnos> s/was/saw/
[17:09:37] <SWPadnos> no, Altium is 2x the cost of SW
[17:09:40] <SWPadnos> or more
[17:09:54] <BigJohnT> damm....
[17:10:01] <cradek> looks like the large table size is useful for that part though
[17:10:23] <SWPadnos> what's cool is that there's a plugin for Altium and SolidWorks that allows a SW user to move parts around and have the changes get pushed back into Altium
[17:10:43] <fenn> ooo
[17:10:46] <BigJohnT> cool
[17:10:48] <SWPadnos> Altium uses full IGES models for all parts, and can export a real CAD model of a board
[17:10:58] <JymmmEMC> cradek: *SMACK*
[17:11:17] <SWPadnos> actually, the latest version is basically a 3D design program - the PCB is edited in 3D
[17:11:43] <BigJohnT> my business partner does all the wiring and draws it on paper before I put it into ADAC...
[17:11:45] <cradek> JymmmEMC: intuitive user interface, and using it is very fast
[17:11:55] <JymmmEMC> cradek: =)
[17:12:05] <fenn> no undo function though
[17:12:09] <cradek> I'm actually serious, software gets in the way of a lot of things
[17:12:14] <JymmmEMC> cradek: but but but wheres the tech support number?
[17:12:17] <cradek> fenn: yes there is, it's included
[17:12:18] <SWPadnos> heh - ain't that the truth
[17:12:47] <SWPadnos> that's what led my wife to put a note on the PageMaker box: "never ever ever ever use pagemaker!"
[17:12:53] <BigJohnT> cradek: G43 works for the multi spindle, Thanks
[17:12:57] <cradek> BigJohnT: cool
[17:13:15] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: s/pgmaker/Corel/
[17:13:22] <SWPadnos> no, she loves Corel
[17:13:29] <cradek> /.*/powerpoint/
[17:13:29] <SWPadnos> though we stopped at version 9 pro
[17:13:34] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:13:42] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: That what I mean, literal substititue pgmaker for Corel
[17:13:46] <SWPadnos> ok, now it's really time to go eat. bbl
[17:13:49] <SWPadnos> oh, right
[17:13:54] <BigJohnT> time for a nap
[17:13:58] <SWPadnos> except it doesn't have as good support for multiple pages
[17:14:05] <SWPadnos> and text flow and stuff
[17:14:08] <SWPadnos> see you
[17:14:11] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Corel 12 & 13 do
[17:14:49] <JymmmEMC> Cool! Just heard my 20" crt arc and then the screen went black for 2s
[17:15:47] <cradek> bbl
[17:18:15] <JymmmEMC> Two please... http://gizmodo.com/341413/alienware-curved-monitor-looks-like-its-from-another-planet
[17:18:51] <eric_U> I don't want two, but a little taller might be nice
[17:19:08] <JymmmEMC> I figured 180 view might be nice
[17:19:26] <JymmmEMC> ^deg
[17:19:48] <eric_U> you need three so there is no seam in the middle
[17:20:17] <JymmmEMC> Well, If I could figure out how to get in, go for 260 deg view
[17:20:23] <JymmmEMC> 360 deg
[17:20:26] <eric_U> that's cool, but it's heeeuuuuuuuge
[17:20:54] <eric_U> I wanted to buy one of those immersion monitors a few years back
[17:21:12] <eric_U> you sit inside the monitor
[17:21:32] <JymmmEMC> right, but how do you get in the middle of the circle?
[17:21:41] <eric_U> there is a hole in the back
[17:22:11] <JymmmEMC> Nah, were thinking an elevator of some sort.
[17:22:31] <eric_U> i was talking about the ones that are available, but that's a good idea
[17:22:51] <BigJohnT> like the dome of silence from...
[17:22:54] <eric_U> or for personal size, it could be like a clamshell
[17:23:23] <JymmmEMC> I'd be too chicken to try and move it/them once setup
[17:29:09] <fenn> i liked the "VR cave" idea - get some projectors and make a box out of translucent sheet
[17:29:31] <fenn> then you project a mirror image onto the sheet
[17:31:00] <archivist> how many irc chatrooms do you want to see at once!!
[17:35:36] <JymmmEMC> 12
[17:37:15] <archivist> anyway to answer you ##electronics question kicad (needs work) and geda
[17:37:40] <JymmmEMC> let me look at geda
[17:38:43] <JymmmEMC> or maybe not (it's offline)
[17:38:50] <archivist> heh
[17:39:01] <fenn> you can still apt-get it
[17:39:11] <archivist> I wasnt impressed with geda whn I tried a few years ago
[17:39:21] <fenn> me either
[17:39:33] <fenn> pcb is ok
[17:39:43] <fenn> it's "unixy" though
[17:39:47] <archivist> kicad is coming on but needs a kick in the bits
[17:40:11] <JymmmEMC> Dia would work, but no symbols for it.
[17:40:18] <fenn> and wtf did they change the name from xpcb to pcb?
[17:49:15] <JymmmEMC> Ok 24V control voltage, wonder if this would be "ok" for that... http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102703&cp=2032058.2032230.2032277&pg=1&parentPage=family
[17:50:11] <JymmmEMC> I just feel "icky" on using 24V - 12 sure, just 24 not used to it.
[17:51:50] <archivist> fenn when i first looked they had their own pcb prog but now its from another project
[17:52:30] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: if it makes you feel less icky, 24V is the gold standard for industrial work - no industrial stuff I've ever seen uses 12V for I/O
[17:52:31] <eric_U> that's gonna give you 33v
[17:52:47] <jmkasunich> (I've been working with industrial stuff for 20+ years)
[17:52:54] <eric_U> you can get 12v, but it's hard to find and more expensive
[17:53:29] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: I understand that is the case, just not accustom to it is all. I have lots and lots of parts for everything else BUT 24V =)
[17:54:10] <eric_U> when you're buying good nos surplus, the 24v stuff is all you'll find
[17:54:30] <fenn> i wonder why computers dont use 24V
[17:54:33] <fenn> instead of 12
[17:54:40] <eric_U> they don't use 12 any more either
[17:54:48] <fenn> for drives and stuff
[17:54:52] <eric_U> motors
[17:55:11] <jmkasunich> fenn: because computers aren't industrial
[17:55:16] <JymmmEMC> I'm going to be buying from these guys http://search.stores.ebay.com/Electrical-Replacement-Parts_LED_W0QQfcdZ2QQfciZ10QQfclZ3QQfrtsZ30QQfsnZElectricalQ20ReplacementQ20PartsQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsaselZ5125342QQsofpZ0
[17:55:17] <fenn> but they used to be
[17:55:40] <jmkasunich> fenn: most computer 12V stuff never leaves the cabinet the computer is in
[17:55:49] <jmkasunich> 24V provides more noise immunity
[17:56:02] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: primarily AC ?
[17:56:08] <eric_U> current is lower for given power
[17:56:11] <fenn> um.. what i mean, is, there was already all this 24V stuff around before computers came on the scene, so why did they go and reinvent the wheel?
[17:56:20] <jmkasunich> 24V is also high enough to punch through oxide layers on contacts in switches and relays, avoiding the need for gold
[17:56:52] <eric_U> they used what they wanted to use probably
[17:56:58] <jmkasunich> computers and industry have been two different worlds for a very long time
[17:57:05] <jmkasunich> different needs, different priorities
[17:57:14] <jmkasunich> 24V is much more demanding for ICs for example
[17:57:22] <eric_U> computers have been cost-sensitive for the last 30 years
[17:57:55] <jmkasunich> the first thing that happens when a 24V I/O signal arrives in a PLC is that it is optocoupled and converted to 5V or less - all internal stuff is low voltage
[17:58:11] <jmkasunich> the insides of a PLC are a computer - the I/O is industrial
[17:58:29] <fenn> yeah but most IC's cant handle 12V either
[17:58:45] <jmkasunich> and most stuff in a PC doesn't run on 12V
[17:58:53] <jmkasunich> which has become even more true over time
[17:59:12] <eric_U> now they use a lot of 12v for power supplies on-board
[17:59:32] <fenn> right, and the only stuff that uses 12V is high power, which is where you'd like to keep the current down
[17:59:34] <jmkasunich> which is promptly stepped down to 3.3, 2.5, 2.0, or 1.5V
[17:59:46] <stustev> jmkasunich: we have been known to use a larger tool once in a while
[18:00:00] <jmkasunich> the sub-5V stuff came well after the 12V standard was formed
[18:00:03] <jmkasunich> hi stuart
[18:00:11] <stustev> hi john
[18:00:14] <jmkasunich> I figured you would
[18:00:33] <cradek> hi guys
[18:00:33] <stustev> sometimes quite a bit larger - it does look like overkill
[18:00:44] <jmkasunich> it was just amusing to see that massive cube of metal on the end of a huge Z axis, with that comparatively tiny tool
[18:00:45] <stustev> hi chris
[18:01:11] <jmkasunich> if the Z brake ever failed, the tool wouldn't even slow it down a tiny bit
[18:01:22] <archivist> or the work
[18:01:24] <jmkasunich> ping! crush
[18:01:55] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Which is the norm 24V AC or DC ?
[18:02:11] <jmkasunich> DC
[18:02:21] <jmkasunich> AC I/O is usually 120V
[18:03:00] <fenn> you want an 18V transformer
[18:03:10] <fenn> or just get a 24V power supply
[18:04:26] <archivist> one i found I could push up to 29 v to drive my steppers
[18:06:10] <JymmmEMC> That the problem... 24VDC PS are not readily available. I'd like to use "something" that if it ever went out, I could find a replacement locally and not have to order it.
[18:06:26] <eric_U> I finally figured out why those din terminal blocks were so cheap, seller had zero feedback
[18:06:30] <eric_U> duh
[18:09:55] <fenn> did you get scammed?
[18:10:15] <eric_U> no, but I was surprised I got them so cheap
[18:10:34] <JymmmEMC> eric_U: are they any good?
[18:10:46] <eric_U> auction closed after business hours on 9th, got them from California to Pennsylvania today
[18:10:53] <eric_U> Phoenix brand
[18:12:34] <eric_U> brand new, $.25 each shipped, normally $2.50 each plus shipping
[18:16:06] <eric_U> these look to be a very good deal if you need low power relays: http://cgi.ebay.com/BOX-OF-TEN-PHOENIX-CONTACT-PLC-OSP-24DC-24DC-2-RELAYS_W0QQitemZ110213613182QQihZ001QQcategoryZ42897QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[18:35:36] <new-gavan> is there anybody who is using emc to control the injection molding machine?
[18:37:11] <eric_U> does an injection molding machine use g code?
[18:37:51] <new-gavan> g code?
[18:38:24] <eric_U> it's the language of cnc
[18:38:57] <fenn> new-gavan: emc can be used for that sort of thing, but nobody has done it yet as far as i know
[18:39:19] <new-gavan> fenn, oh
[18:39:44] <new-gavan> i am using the rtai to control it
[18:40:28] <new-gavan> but now i think emc can make it easier
[18:40:44] <fenn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RH_H7jgQQY
[18:40:59] <fenn> i figure that's about the same as what you'll be doing
[18:41:49] <new-gavan> yeah
[18:46:09] <skunkworks> someone made a cutter/bender also using emc
[18:46:22] <skunkworks> * skunkworks can't find the video at the moment
[18:46:37] <fenn> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Videos
[18:47:06] <fenn> it's "acemi's wire forming machine"
[18:47:16] <fenn> oh, hello acemi :)
[18:47:23] <acemi> hi
[19:11:00] <skunkworks> yikes
[19:11:01] <skunkworks> http://cgi.ebay.com/5-Cincinnatti-Horizontal-Mill_W0QQitemZ250205063202QQihZ015QQcategoryZ12584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:11:16] <skunkworks> now that is a big mill
[19:12:27] <eric_U> I hope that thing has an assist on the knee
[19:12:53] <eric_U> the rigging will make buying that uneconomic
[19:13:35] <skunkworks> we could roll it home on water pipe...
[19:14:06] <eric_U> penn state had a K&T about that size
[19:14:39] <skunkworks> we have a brown and sharp about 75% that size
[19:28:28] <JymmmEMC> Fucking bathroom sink drain has been leaking for a few days...
[19:29:22] <JymmmEMC> The cheapass landlord had previosuly fixed it (before we moved in) TWICE it appears... once with DUCT TAPE, then another layer on top of that with CLOTH TAPE!!!
[19:30:09] <JymmmEMC> a few months ago, I had to fix the overflow drain on the bowl, it had rusted thru... easy enough fix though.... shit loads of silicon.
[19:42:57] <anonimasu> nice :)
[19:45:17] <JymmmEMC> Whats the typical draw of the coil on a 24V contactor?
[19:45:41] <archivist> a small one or a large one
[19:46:03] <JymmmEMC> just a sec...
[19:46:06] <eric_U> they should say
[19:46:15] <JymmmEMC> they should, but don't
[19:46:28] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: measure the ohm..
[19:46:37] <anonimasu> resistance of the coil..
[19:46:44] <JymmmEMC> If I had it in my hand I could.
[19:47:05] <anonimasu> well, that's the only way you'll know..
[19:47:07] <anonimasu> less then a amp ;)
[19:47:15] <anonimasu> google for figures..
[19:47:40] <anonimasu> http://www.surplussales.com/Relays/hermetic.html
[19:48:00] <anonimasu> 0.097A
[19:48:56] <JymmmEMC> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150177948234&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005
[19:51:14] <anonimasu> throw the numbers at google..(pn's..)
[19:51:16] <dmess> found some solar solar shingles for 500 bucks an AMP @ 14.7V
[19:51:45] <eric_U> where?
[19:52:04] <dmess> http://kingsolar.com/catalog/mfg/powerfilm/pt15300.html
[19:52:08] <JymmmEMC> 275 ohms @ 120VAC = .436
[19:52:42] <JymmmEMC> That's Nominal DC resistance - ohms
[19:52:55] <JymmmEMC> http://www.pbcsupply.com/specification.aspx?PartImage=CN-PBC402-120V.jpg&spec=cn-pbc_2p
[19:53:14] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: but that's not coil resistance
[19:53:25] <JymmmEMC> that's all I got.
[19:53:26] <fenn> JymmmEMC: says 17ohms on your ebay page.. so 1.4A
[19:53:35] <anonimasu> or did I miss it?
[19:54:09] <anonimasu> fenn: are you sure that's coil resistance?
[19:54:18] <fenn> "nominal DC resistance"
[19:54:22] <fenn> dunno what else it would be
[19:54:32] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:54:39] <fenn> it goes up proportionally with coil voltage
[19:54:41] <JymmmEMC> doh...
[19:55:12] <fenn> however it does say "120V COIL"
[19:55:36] <fenn> so i would suggest not buying that one
[19:55:54] <anonimasu> Yeah..
[19:55:55] <anonimasu> :D
[19:55:56] <JymmmEMC> my bad
[19:56:02] <archivist> 1 contact 24v coil 17 ohms 2 contact 13 ohms greedy little bugger
[19:56:46] <JymmmEMC> no shit, huh.
[19:56:59] <JymmmEMC> screws my idea of using a 3A supply
[19:57:05] <archivist> methinks less copper more amps cheap shit
[19:58:14] <anonimasu> lol
[19:58:27] <anonimasu> there are better contactors.
[19:58:35] <archivist> the coil in the pic is small for the job
[19:58:53] <anonimasu> but, if you are fuzzy about $ you wont get that kind
[19:59:25] <archivist> then you pay the $ to feed electricity to the coil
[19:59:41] <anonimasu> yep
[20:00:01] <JymmmEMC> Now I'm leary about http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-NIB-PLUG-IN-RELAY-11PIN-3POLE-24V-DC-COIL_W0QQitemZ150202646903QQihZ005QQcategoryZ78205QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem
[20:00:06] <JymmmEMC> same seller
[20:00:09] <archivist> magic words are ampere turns JymmmEMC
[20:00:42] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: sockets?
[20:00:51] <JymmmEMC> anonimasu: $0.99
[20:00:56] <anonimasu> really?
[20:00:57] <anonimasu> nice
[20:01:10] <anonimasu> well, as you have no spec's I'd advice against them
[20:01:13] <JymmmEMC> http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-NIB-PLUG-IN-RELAY-11PIN-3POLE-24V-DC-COIL_W0QQitemZ150202646903QQihZ005QQcategoryZ78205QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem
[20:01:23] <JymmmEMC> ooops
[20:01:56] <JymmmEMC> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150182165600&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005
[20:02:13] <fenn> ask the seller for a part number
[20:02:48] <JymmmEMC> They really are http://www.pioneerbreaker.com/
[20:04:05] <fenn> "our price (members only)"?
[20:04:34] <fenn> wtf is wrong with the world
[20:04:59] <JymmmEMC> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150187185551&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005
[20:06:54] <fenn> i guess i should upgrade more often - 867MB to download
[20:07:10] <JymmmEMC> I wonder if these are any good... http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-22MM-START-STOP-PUSHBUTTON-AC-DC-LED-PILOT-LIGHT_W0QQitemZ150147980552QQihZ005QQcategoryZ42898QQcmdZViewItem
[20:07:35] <fenn> ew
[20:08:26] <JymmmEMC> It's not THAT bad
[20:08:44] <SWPadnos> My bet is that that will havea very cheesy feel to it
[20:08:46] <SWPadnos> have a
[20:09:10] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, that's what I was thinking, or clumbsy to use
[20:09:54] <SWPadnos> if you think about it, that start/stop switch uses a 22mm hole, which has the bulb and two actuator shafts in it
[20:10:05] <SWPadnos> they can't be all that robust
[20:10:54] <JymmmEMC> I'll just go for these instead... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150137819603&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005
[20:12:16] <JymmmEMC> Ok, US Quarter diameter is 24.26mm - good ref
[20:12:45] <SWPadnos> get this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/41-Allen-Bradley-800T-Push-Buttons-Caps_W0QQitemZ180203841719QQihZ008QQcategoryZ58166QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[20:13:25] <SWPadnos> I got an assortment similar to that, and I haven't needed any buttons since :)
[20:13:41] <SWPadnos> you choose the voltage by choosing different bulbs, usually
[20:14:03] <LawrenceG> hey Jim... looks like that assortment has some of the mushroom head buttons like I used
[20:14:28] <LawrenceG> top right of pix
[20:14:35] <SWPadnos> I only see one mushroom head in that lot, but there are others (lots of 10 or so for $20) that have more
[20:14:50] <eric_U> I recommend NOS from reputable companies like SWP posted
[20:15:00] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/Allen-Bradley-800T-FXP16-A1-Push-Buttons-Lot-Of-5_W0QQitemZ280191118970QQihZ018QQcategoryZ42898QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[20:15:21] <SWPadnos> or even used old stock - they don't break often, and when they do, there are replacement parts
[20:15:36] <SWPadnos> also, you can add contacts to the industrial switches like these
[20:15:40] <eric_U> of course, the replacement parts will cost an arm and leg
[20:15:50] <SWPadnos> not if you get them from another auction ;)
[20:15:58] <SWPadnos> or rob peter to fix paul, as it were
[20:16:11] <eric_U> you are right, used is fine
[20:16:31] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I better go "help" my wife - I'm not sure what she's doing out there in the garage ...
[20:17:24] <archivist> danger, wife cleaning garage
[20:18:14] <dmess> its ALL in a pile by now... SHE just wants to see you cry.... for not helping
[20:29:23] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: which url?
[20:31:37] <JymmmEMC> Somewhere around here I have a opto-22 SSR which can't be identified. I know it's low votlage on the control side, not sure what it is on the load side though
[20:32:09] <LawrenceG> JymmmEMC: ?? sorry not sure what your question is
[20:32:10] <fenn> JymmmEMC: what are all these relays and buttons and stuff for>
[20:39:38] <JymmmEMC> fenn: new controller box
[20:40:44] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: you had mentioned something about the estop button you used, but I had posted afew different url's so I wasn't sure which one you were reffering to.
[20:44:07] <jtr> JymmmEMC: the last one posted by swpadnos. top row, second from the right.
[20:46:18] <eric_U> 9 people bidding on that
[20:55:04] <LawrenceG> jtr ...thanks I had already cleared my history window
[21:09:02] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: you clear your history within minutes?!
[21:09:40] <JymmmEMC> Isn't that kinda the purpose of having a history in a browser?
[22:02:24] <skunkworks> heh - I use the history a lot.. hmmm - I think that was a page I looked at 5 weeks ago...
[22:02:27] <skunkworks> ;)
[22:02:41] <skunkworks> started with a w...
[22:03:22] <LawrenceG> skunkworks: are you the one with the acupin linear encoder?
[22:05:09] <skunkworks> LawrenceG: this? http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/accupins.JPG
[22:05:51] <skunkworks> after we the the machine back up with encoders on the servos.. I want to play with using one of the resovler-> encoder chips..
[22:05:55] <LawrenceG> skunkworks: yea thats the one.... is there a picture of the read head?
[22:06:04] <skunkworks> I don't think I have one.
[22:06:12] <skunkworks> yet
[22:06:41] <skunkworks> I have some of the circuit diagrams though I think... at the shop
[22:06:45] <LawrenceG> I have heard of similar encoders made from a tube of ball bearings
[22:06:53] <skunkworks> heh - I suppose.
[22:07:26] <LawrenceG> It would be interesting to try building a liear encoder.... ball bearings are cheap and accurate sizing
[22:07:43] <skunkworks> worked great - how ever ge did it - they divided each .1" diam pin into .0001
[22:07:51] <jmkasunich> picking position from the balls is the hard part
[22:07:52] <skunkworks> GE
[22:08:18] <LawrenceG> basically a resolver interface.... 2 sine waves
[22:08:37] <skunkworks> Thats what I get from the diagrams from the K&T
[22:09:28] <LawrenceG> I guess the head is 3 coils... one exciting the read head and 2 reading the field back from the balls
[22:09:31] <skunkworks> the stacked these from end to end - I think they are around 10 inches long. getting the 38X36X24 travel
[22:09:57] <skunkworks> I should scan in the diagrams
[22:10:28] <LawrenceG> please do.... I am thinking one may be able to use a sound card for reading the sensor signals
[22:10:44] <LawrenceG> smop
[22:10:52] <skunkworks> heh
[22:11:11] <skunkworks> the chips now are under 30 dollars now I think..
[22:11:28] <LawrenceG> having one linear scale would be a great help in mapping leadscrew erros
[22:11:37] <LawrenceG> errors
[22:12:09] <skunkworks> I even think you get an index also.
[22:12:14] <skunkworks> (I would have to look
[22:12:15] <skunkworks> )
[22:12:24] <LawrenceG> sorry jmk... I am too lazy to stack gauge blocks.... what a chore
[22:12:25] <skunkworks> it probably been a few years.
[22:12:30] <skunkworks> a year
[22:13:37] <jmkasunich> LawrenceG: it is very time consuming
[22:14:02] <jmkasunich> I wrote a g-code program that would move the axis to make a measurement, pause, then approach from the other direction, pause, then advance to the next measurement
[22:14:13] <LawrenceG> no kidding..... I dont have any gauge blocks, which makes it even harder
[22:14:19] <jmkasunich> it would also prompt when the block stack needed to be changed, and pull away to allow for the swap
[22:15:15] <jmkasunich> back in the spring I picked up a set of length measuring tools as were used on the old pratt and whitney jig borers
[22:15:39] <jmkasunich> 2 each rods 1", 2", 3", and 6", plus 2 mic heads with a 1" range
[22:16:05] <skunkworks> cool - we have one or two sets like that. starett
[22:16:06] <LawrenceG> cool
[22:16:13] <jmkasunich> they're designed to sit in a v-groove alongside the table, but also rest nicely in the top of one of my t-slots
[22:16:13] <skunkworks> they are nice.
[22:17:15] <jmkasunich> mine are lufkin
[22:17:22] <jmkasunich> I think I paid $50 for the set
[22:17:29] <jmkasunich> oh, and there is one 10" rod too
[22:17:54] <skunkworks> I think one of the sets father bought new.. not cheap.. The other I think maybe we got from an uncle
[22:20:25] <jmkasunich> I got mine from HGR of course
[22:25:38] <archivist> measuring tools are nice, but Im trashing one for my cnc!
[22:25:49] <LawrenceG> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LVDT.png use a stack of ball bearings in the center
[22:26:46] <skunkworks> archivist: digital micrometer ? ;)
[22:27:52] <archivist> skunkworks, no a toolsetting shadograph, its been rusting for years but has a couple of nice slides on it and a base
[22:28:27] <LawrenceG> basically you get an absolute position withing 1 ball spacing, added to the multiple ball spacings kept track of in software
[22:31:19] <Gamma-X> hey everyone whats up
[22:32:17] <Gamma-X> if anyone is an ebay feend keep on the lookout for a cheap!!!!! vfd or phase converter for a 1/6th hp coolant pump.
[23:19:10] <jmkasunich> cast iron is SO nice
[23:19:38] <archivist> sexy stuff to machine
[23:19:45] <jmkasunich> what other metal could you drill a 3/16" hole 2.3" deep without even stopping to clear chips, and then follow it with 13/32 same depth
[23:20:09] <jmkasunich> cuts like buttah
[23:20:48] <archivist> sum sexy cast www.archivist.info/pendulum/
[23:21:39] <jmkasunich> wow, pretty
[23:21:54] <jmkasunich> how'd you get that finish?
[23:22:25] <archivist> just went up the grades of wet and dry
[23:23:04] <jmkasunich> oh, the first pic is a lie then - it almost looks like you got that right off the lathe
[23:23:39] <archivist> acually gets polished on the lathe
[23:23:48] <JymmmEMC> That's cast iron??? http://www.archivist.info/pendulum/P9072701.JPG
[23:23:52] <archivist> yes
[23:24:11] <JymmmEMC> archivist: what are you protecting it with?
[23:24:21] <archivist> first pic shows standard cast finish as well
[23:24:49] <JymmmEMC> one fingerprint and it's all over.
[23:25:15] <archivist> JymmmEMC, gone to customer now up to him, told him about finger marks
[23:25:37] <JymmmEMC> archivist: ah, ok. PU to the rescue!
[23:25:39] <archivist> besides he can probably polish it back up
[23:25:55] <JymmmEMC> maybe, but never quite the same
[23:26:18] <JymmmEMC> always those tiny spots that you can never get ot
[23:27:53] <lewin1> lewin1 is now known as lewing_
[23:30:03] <archivist> jmkasunich, btw its hollow and the drilling was hard work!
[23:31:59] <jmkasunich> drilled, not bored?
[23:32:07] <jmkasunich> (obviously drilled first)
[23:33:13] <archivist> all drilled with various assorted bodged oddities
[23:33:24] <jmkasunich> why?
[23:33:36] <archivist> eg milling cutter on a shaft
[23:33:46] <archivist> cost
[23:34:07] <archivist> and the job was too big for that lathe
[23:34:16] <jmkasunich> I would think once you get beyond a certain size boring is easier than drilling
[23:34:44] <JymmmEMC> 200lbs of salt done and still needs more
[23:35:21] <jmkasunich> salt for what? margaritas?
[23:35:26] <anonimasu> archivist: nice
[23:35:38] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: weed killer
[23:35:42] <archivist> jmkasunich, couldnt take the saddle drill depth past the job
[23:36:08] <archivist> in fact only an inch or two
[23:36:08] <jmkasunich> ah, but the tailstock could go far enough
[23:36:21] <archivist> only just
[23:36:46] <jmkasunich> one of the really annoying things about the shoptask is the 1.5" tailstock travel
[23:36:48] <archivist> and then I just used it for pressure
[23:36:53] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: The San Mateo Water Distruct uses it for weed control around all the water ponds. Non-toxic, and not too worried if we get some on our shoes and track it in the house (safe for the birds).
[23:36:53] <Gamma-X2> hey just a question when setting up hal what are u actualy setting up?
[23:37:13] <fenn> what's this /etc/security/limits.conf: * hard memlock 20480 #EMC2
[23:37:31] <jmkasunich> no clue
[23:37:50] <jmkasunich> maybe something involved with ensuring that RT code doesn't get swapped out?
[23:38:00] <JymmmEMC> Is there any "standard" color coding for indicator lamps?
[23:39:06] <archivist> red bad, green good, amber hmm think about it
[23:39:10] <JymmmEMC> I can get " WHT, YEL, BLU, GRN, RED
[23:39:52] <jmkasunich> some folks do green = motor running, red = stopped
[23:40:15] <jmkasunich> others flip it, since running is likely to be the dangerous state, so that is red - stopped is safe thus green
[23:40:39] <JymmmEMC> On the spindle/dustVac, I was thinking GRN for ON, and RED for AUTO, nothing for OFF
[23:40:40] <jmkasunich> IOW, there is no real standard - it depends on the industry you are in, etc
[23:40:57] <jmkasunich> auto = turned on by computer control?
[23:41:05] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: yes
[23:41:10] <jmkasunich> that seems reasonable
[23:41:31] <jmkasunich> only problem is that a burned out indicator will seem to indicate the safe state, when it isn't really safe
[23:41:50] <JymmmEMC> makes sense.
[23:42:10] <jmkasunich> if the indicators are LEDs, the risk of burnout is very very low
[23:42:31] <jmkasunich> dinner time
[23:42:40] <JymmmEMC> before you go
[23:43:07] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-COMPACT-PILOT-LIGHT-22mm-GREEN-LED-BULB-IS-AC-DC_W0QQitemZ150137821697QQihZ005QQcategoryZ42898QQcmdZViewItem
[23:43:50] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, decide what indicators you need and how they'll be wired first, then pick colors!
[23:43:56] <SWPadnos> slap!
[23:44:50] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I am. IF I decide on three indicators ON/READY/AUTO then three, if just two AUTO/ON then it'll be different colors.
[23:44:52] <SWPadnos> unless you've already done that :)
[23:45:33] <SWPadnos> for each "thing", I'd suggest an indicator that shows that it could be powered, and one that shows that the system thinks it's powered
[23:45:36] <archivist> get one of each, fit all, make panel pretty
[23:45:36] <JymmmEMC> To decided either way, I need to figure out how to wire it all up
[23:45:55] <SWPadnos> you can also optionally add an indicator that shows that it's in auto mode
[23:46:25] <SWPadnos> no, you should decide what you want first - adding lights is a simple matter of paralleling indicators with "active" signals
[23:47:03] <SWPadnos> unless you want to use indicators in series with relay coils or that kind of thing (which I think isn't recommended, but it does make the circuit not work if the buld is bad)
[23:47:05] <SWPadnos> bulb
[23:47:16] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: As jmkasunich suggested, an burned out bulb is a bad thing. I never concidered that before, now I have to incorp that into the design to get the right controls.
[23:47:35] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: series?! EW yuck
[23:48:00] <SWPadnos> the military (and some industrial controls) often use an indicator test button, which lights up all the indicators
[23:48:10] <SWPadnos> that way you can see which ones are bad at any time
[23:48:50] <SWPadnos> but it requires you to separate the indicator from the controlled circuit, or have SPDT-type switches on every bulb (or some other annoyingly complex scheme)
[23:48:52] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Master on = lamp test mode. hit ON button, goes into rgular mode?
[23:49:10] <SWPadnos> I don't think so - I'm not sure how to do that
[23:49:23] <JymmmEMC> me neither
[23:49:31] <SWPadnos> consider this: for each lamp, you have three options on how to wire it ro the thing it's supposed to be indicating:
[23:49:35] <JymmmEMC> but I'm not sure in the "READY" lamp stuff either.
[23:49:52] <SWPadnos> 1) parallel - connect a light across a relay coil, and the light tells you when the coil is energized
[23:50:15] <SWPadnos> 2) series, same deal, except that a bad light bulb will prevent the coil from operating
[23:50:46] <JymmmEMC> wouldn't series muck up the power draw on the bulb any?
[23:51:02] <SWPadnos> 3) separate contacts - the indicator will tell you when something *thinks* that the coil should be on, but unless you're using separate contacts of a contactor, it won't be as reliable an indicator
[23:51:33] <SWPadnos> well, for an inductive load it could be a problem with inrush, but I'm talking on the control side
[23:51:53] <SWPadnos> so you use a 12V coil and a 12V bulb with a 24V supply
[23:52:17] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102703&cp=2032058.2032230.2032277&pg=1&parentPage=family
[23:52:49] <SWPadnos> ok, that's cool for a 24V system
[23:53:04] <SWPadnos> you might want a 24V regulator though
[23:53:09] <archivist> er wot 12v coil and 12v bulb may not work they need to be the same wattage / resistance to work
[23:53:21] <JymmmEMC> archivist: in series
[23:53:27] <archivist> exactly
[23:53:45] <SWPadnos> no - he's right - they would be passing the same current, so they need to have the same current rating
[23:53:54] <SWPadnos> or draw
[23:54:11] <JymmmEMC> ok, so parallel to the ciol
[23:54:12] <JymmmEMC> coil
[23:54:38] <JymmmEMC> seems a lil better
[23:54:38] <SWPadnos> yep - especially if you're planning on using LED bulbs, you shouldn't bother with bulb testing
[23:54:45] <SWPadnos> or indicator failure
[23:55:04] <SWPadnos> it'll be pretty obvious when a bulb is burnt out
[23:57:51] <JymmmEMC> ok, so off/ready/on/auto are the potential states.
[23:58:07] <SWPadnos> off = no lamps lit ;)
[23:58:14] <SWPadnos> at least that's my suggestion
[23:58:33] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, though I might add a white to indicator power is in the box.
[23:58:47] <SWPadnos> yes, that would be "ready" I think
[23:59:22] <JymmmEMC> I could make that one blue - I like blue =)
[23:59:57] <SWPadnos> blue is good