#emc | Logs for 2008-01-10

[00:00:13] <archivist> can I jog 1 step at a time?
[00:03:31] <archivist> hmm axis drop down for A needs to be parts of a deg/step
[00:07:42] <stustev> The screen on the G&L lives! Tomorrow will be software install day.
[00:20:03] <Gamma-X> is it safe to assume that there is no auto learn mode for setting up emc?
[00:22:49] <stustev> is auto learn something like Plug and Play?
[00:23:07] <Gamma-X> uhhh yeah
[00:23:15] <stustev> NO
[00:23:27] <stustev> there is no auto learn
[00:23:32] <stustev> :)
[00:24:39] <Gamma-X> how hard is it to configure?
[00:26:47] <stustev> it can be time consuming but it is fun. it will take a little time to figure out what needs to be done. the help here and on the users-list is very good.
[00:27:44] <stustev> if you have done something like this with other software packages you will see the similarity
[00:28:22] <Gamma-X> stustev what other software pachs are there. are u reffering to linux? thats no problem for me but settin up the machine to work properly i think will lol
[00:29:21] <stustev> other machine control packages Mach3, cncpc, MDSI
[00:30:02] <Gamma-X> ahhhh ok
[00:30:14] <Gamma-X> is this the noly free one?
[00:30:24] <stustev> you can find a lot of examples and simple projects at linuxcnc.org
[00:30:47] <Gamma-X> ok thanks
[00:31:43] <stustev> I think there is another free one I just don't know what it is called. You can be assured it is not as complete as EMC2. Oh, there is also the EMC BDI project. I think they can be helpful also.
[00:32:18] <stustev> bbl
[00:54:55] <ubuntu_> ubuntu wont let me load x...
[00:54:57] <ubuntu_> what a shame
[00:55:15] <eric_U> why not?
[00:55:37] <ubuntu_> sumtin with x org
[00:55:53] <eric_U> no doubt
[00:56:02] <eric_U> can you be more specific?
[00:56:05] <ubuntu_> not sure what to do.
[00:56:06] <SWPadnos> that may not be enough information to solve the problem
[00:56:21] <ubuntu_> uhhh i honestly forget how to find the error it came up with
[00:56:35] <eric_U> startx
[00:56:57] <ubuntu_> no devices detecred...
[00:57:00] <SWPadnos> is this a new install, an old one that just stopped working, or a n old one that was recently upgrades?
[00:57:02] <ubuntu_> detected*
[00:57:08] <SWPadnos> an
[00:57:10] <eric_U> from a live cd?
[00:57:12] <ubuntu_> new
[00:57:16] <ubuntu_> just checkin out live cd
[00:57:27] <ubuntu_> i got a nice machine and i want to add a new control in
[00:57:38] <SWPadnos> do you get an error using the liveCD, or is this after installing to hard disk?
[00:57:54] <ubuntu_> live cd
[00:57:58] <ubuntu_> i dont wanna isntall yet
[00:58:18] <eric_U> what kind of computer?
[00:58:23] <ubuntu_> my controller jsut junked out on me.
[00:58:24] <SWPadnos> ok, what graphics card do you have (or chip if it's on the motherboard), and what monitor (LCD or CRT)?
[00:58:47] <ubuntu_> samsung syncmaster 931bw, nvidia geforce 8800gts
[00:59:04] <eric_U> too much computer
[00:59:22] <SWPadnos> is the samsung a CRT?
[00:59:26] <ubuntu_> lcd
[00:59:34] <SWPadnos> I lost track of their model numbers about 10 years ago :)
[00:59:37] <SWPadnos> ok
[01:00:06] <SWPadnos> the 8800GTs should come up, but with a generic (non-accelerated) driver
[01:00:33] <SWPadnos> can you try booting into "safe graphics mode"
[01:00:49] <ubuntu_> SWPadnos: does that require a reboot?
[01:00:54] <SWPadnos> yes
[01:01:05] <SWPadnos> it's an option on the liveCDboot menu
[01:01:18] <SWPadnos> one sec (before you leave)
[01:01:24] <ubuntu_> ok thanks brb
[01:01:25] <skunkworks> or you could do a sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg and set the video to vesa..
[01:01:29] <SWPadnos> wait!
[01:01:33] <ubuntu_> ok
[01:01:35] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:01:51] <SWPadnos> yes - I was going to suggest what skunkworks just said - you can try that before rebooting
[01:02:03] <SWPadnos> dpkg-reconfigure xserver-sorg
[01:02:06] <SWPadnos> err
[01:02:08] <SWPadnos> dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
[01:02:51] <skunkworks> don't auto-detect - and pick vesa driver.. then all the other quiestion just enter past..
[01:03:02] <ubuntu_> how much ram do those cards have
[01:03:06] <ubuntu_> i forget and its askin
[01:03:13] <SWPadnos> between 384 and 768M
[01:03:21] <SWPadnos> ie, plenty
[01:03:29] <eric_U> you don't need to tell it that
[01:03:30] <ubuntu_> just hit enter for everyting?
[01:03:33] <ubuntu_> ok
[01:03:34] <skunkworks> yes
[01:04:19] <skunkworks> then do a startx
[01:04:58] <skunkworks> * skunkworks just knows this because he just had to do it today.
[01:05:13] <eric_U> I did it way too many times
[01:05:35] <ubuntu_> where in business!
[01:05:42] <ubuntu_> and PS!
[01:05:50] <ubuntu_> IF THIS IS AUSTIN! I still looooveeee u!
[01:06:01] <SWPadnos> err -o then
[01:06:03] <SWPadnos> ok
[01:06:21] <ubuntu_> nah im just playin its gamma-x whats up yall!
[01:06:53] <SWPadnos> just some noobs wondering how to get X set up
[01:06:58] <SWPadnos> uh - I mean, nothing
[01:07:21] <SWPadnos> that's about 100x the video card you need/want for a CNC control, by the way
[01:07:48] <ubuntu_> hahah i know im just settin it up to check it out.
[01:11:07] <ubuntu_> ok now i get an error and cant load emc2 lol
[01:11:34] <SWPadnos> what config are you trying to load?
[01:11:59] <ubuntu_> i tried the 5i20
[01:12:03] <skunkworks> heh
[01:12:08] <ubuntu_> but i guess it wont load cause i dont have teh card in yet
[01:12:09] <SWPadnos> do you have a 5i20 in that computer?
[01:12:13] <SWPadnos> ding ding!
[01:12:16] <ubuntu_> wich one can i demo
[01:12:16] <ubuntu_> hahaha
[01:12:25] <ubuntu_> im a winner all the time!
[01:12:27] <skunkworks> I would try sim axis or something.
[01:12:32] <ubuntu_> ok thanks
[01:13:11] <SWPadnos> sim anything or stepper_inch/stepper_mm
[01:13:23] <SWPadnos> those use the parallel port, so make sure there's no printer attached
[01:21:59] <Gamma-X> verry interesting
[01:22:23] <Gamma-X> where are all the other features of emc though?
[01:24:46] <skunkworks> what are you looking for?
[01:25:09] <Gamma-X> well lets say... tool touch off. digitizing. etc
[01:25:16] <Gamma-X> differant looks of the control.
[01:25:27] <Gamma-X> make it looks more like a standard control system
[01:25:49] <gezar> wait there is supposed to be more?
[01:26:05] <eric_U> I thought it was just the penguin, over and over
[01:26:15] <gezar> ive seen machines with a billion buttons but ended up only using about 15
[01:26:33] <Gamma-X> lol i dont want fancy
[01:26:38] <Gamma-X> i just want those 3 things
[01:26:51] <Gamma-X> personaly. even though im sure it is great and perfect by it self
[01:26:56] <eric_U> some controls have a digitize button?
[01:27:02] <anonimasu> hm.
[01:27:09] <anonimasu> they usually have a digitize macro
[01:27:20] <anonimasu> no special button
[01:27:45] <Gamma-X> is there a way to intergreate this within emc>?
[01:28:50] <Gamma-X> well my main goal is to have a digitizer and probe so i can import/export files to/from mastercam. and id like to digitize.
[01:28:55] <Gamma-X> brb smokey time.
[01:29:29] <anonimasu> mastercam dosent do all well with point clouds
[01:29:50] <anonimasu> you need to create splines off the point data, to be able to do any machining at all
[01:33:20] <eric_U> where do you get those splines?
[01:33:39] <Gamma-X> anonimasu yeah how would u do that then?
[01:34:00] <anonimasu> you would import the splines to a cad program
[01:34:02] <eric_U> Gamma-X, look, a shiny object ----->
[01:34:18] <anonimasu> then create splines and then you make toolpaths..
[01:34:23] <anonimasu> you might be able to in matercam perhaos
[01:34:25] <anonimasu> perhaps..
[01:34:40] <eric_U> you mean import point cloud?
[01:34:56] <anonimasu> yeah
[01:35:21] <anonimasu> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Probing_With_EMC
[01:35:51] <Gamma-X> Now it is possible to generate surfaces from point clouds in Mastercam using the REVSURF C-Hook. T
[01:36:38] <SkinnypuppY34> Is that in X2 only or also X ?
[01:37:04] <Gamma-X> not sure lookin now
[01:37:14] <anonimasu> there's a program
[01:37:16] <anonimasu> called emcprobe..
[01:37:20] <anonimasu> to collect point data..
[01:37:26] <anonimasu> and output it to a file when probing.
[01:45:06] <Gamma-X> looks like v-9 does the cloud points thing
[01:45:22] <eric_U> I was pricing cables for servo motors, they are more than the motors
[01:45:35] <SWPadnos> oh - you noticed
[01:45:49] <SWPadnos> unless you buy the motors new also
[01:45:54] <eric_U> nope
[01:46:05] <SWPadnos> oh. then you need better motors ;)
[01:46:09] <eric_U> bigger
[01:46:21] <SWPadnos> that too
[01:46:24] <eric_U> I'm buying little motors
[01:46:33] <SWPadnos> what kind are you messing with now?
[01:46:48] <eric_U> Baldor
[01:47:08] <eric_U> I figure they are chinese
[01:47:13] <SWPadnos> ok. that's what I have for motors
[01:47:19] <SWPadnos> I don't know actually
[01:47:26] <eric_U> but they use yurpean connectors
[01:47:40] <SWPadnos> ok, not the crcular MIL connectors?
[01:47:41] <anonimasu> german I think..
[01:47:54] <Gamma-X> i wonder how hard this digitizing thing is with emc
[01:47:55] <eric_U> the connectors would suggest German
[01:48:06] <anonimasu> Gamma-X: *sigh*
[01:48:13] <anonimasu> did you miss what I wrote?
[01:48:17] <SWPadnos> mine don't, in any way. they're Amphenol MIL-C-5015
[01:48:22] <eric_U> shiny object ---->
[01:48:26] <anonimasu> Gamma-X: even writing your own program to do it would be easy.
[01:48:32] <anonimasu> to hook onto emc..
[01:48:41] <Gamma-X> im saying...
[01:48:45] <Gamma-X> with mastercam, sorry
[01:48:55] <anonimasu> you probably want to have a python program that you fire up off a menu
[01:49:01] <anonimasu> get a filename dialog..
[01:49:06] <anonimasu> where you can save your file..
[01:49:08] <anonimasu> then start probing..
[01:49:13] <Gamma-X> ok
[01:49:20] <anonimasu> with a macro of your choice..
[01:49:34] <Gamma-X> anonimasu well i never programmed so im sol
[01:49:35] <Gamma-X> lol
[01:49:49] <anonimasu> like g0 z10 ; gXX PROBE ; repeat
[01:49:54] <anonimasu> well, with some stepover..
[01:50:13] <anonimasu> Gamma-X: there's a program to do it already..
[01:50:19] <anonimasu> to throw you points..
[01:50:27] <anonimasu> so it should be fairly trivial to use..
[01:50:32] <Gamma-X> ahhh ok
[01:51:53] <Gamma-X> anonimasu is there also a way to probe the piece of stock so u dont have to align it manually. for like a vac vise?
[01:52:17] <anonimasu> eh?
[01:52:20] <SWPadnos> you can probe all you want, but at this pont you can't rotate the program to match the work
[01:52:22] <anonimasu> you still need to have pices square.
[01:52:30] <anonimasu> there isnt a rotate function
[01:52:36] <anonimasu> so you can probe all you want.
[01:52:41] <Gamma-X> ok
[01:52:51] <anonimasu> and even if you can
[01:52:58] <anonimasu> rotating the workpiece is kind of a hack..
[01:53:11] <anonimasu> why interpolate 2 axes when you can just cut it with one moving?
[01:54:25] <Gamma-X> The DP-4 touch probe is used to quickly setup your fixtures and parts. Probing accurately sets zero points, finds edges, center locations of bosses and bores, edges of slots and webs and more. You'll never have to spend 30 minutes using a center finder to locate the center of a bore again. The Ajax probe will find and set the center of a bore in just seconds. And it is accurate down to a tenth! The probing option also includes coordinate syste
[01:54:25] <Gamma-X> Click here to view our available probe tips
[01:54:35] <Gamma-X> thats from centroid.
[01:54:39] <anonimasu> and?
[01:54:45] <anonimasu> so write a probe macro.. in g-code..
[01:54:59] <cradek> haha 30 minutes to find the center of a hole
[01:55:00] <anonimasu> I think there's a hole centering probe function..
[01:55:01] <Gamma-X> im just sayin.... lol
[01:55:06] <anonimasu> wtf..
[01:55:12] <anonimasu> it takes me 30 seconds with a edgefinder.
[01:55:32] <anonimasu> Gamma-X: you are saying the buzzwords centroid uses to sell you a $10000k control..
[01:55:34] <anonimasu> without motors..
[01:55:36] <SWPadnos> anonimasu, that centroid probing function does rotate the coordinate system to match the workpiece
[01:55:44] <cradek> 30 minutes to center your probe to your spindle maybe :-)
[01:55:47] <SWPadnos> I think that's an extra $3k or so
[01:55:48] <anonimasu> and a probing option for $300
[01:55:50] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos thats what i was reffering to
[01:55:51] <anonimasu> err 3000
[01:56:21] <SWPadnos> and don't forget the $695 or whatever to enable S-words in their interpreter
[01:56:25] <anonimasu> oh yeah
[01:56:59] <Gamma-X> a few grand for unlimited amount of file
[01:57:35] <anonimasu> why not run emc and purchase a vmc?
[01:57:55] <cradek> if you cannot do it yourself, I bet you could find a programmer to add coordinate system rotation to emc2 for those $thousands
[01:58:02] <Gamma-X> lol
[01:58:02] <anonimasu> lol
[01:58:06] <cradek> I'm totally serious
[01:58:16] <cradek> Free software gives you that kind of power
[01:58:17] <SWPadnos> oh - I'd do it for that
[01:59:05] <cradek> I probably would too actually
[01:59:24] <Gamma-X> lol i just mentioned it so if anyone plans on future additions that maby theres a suggestion.
[01:59:25] <cradek> pay and get the code, or pay and not get the code? easy
[01:59:27] <SWPadnos> heh - you'd probably be faster than I would be
[01:59:34] <SWPadnos> we know about the idea - thanks :)
[01:59:48] <Gamma-X> NO PROBLEM! SWPadnos
[02:00:00] <cradek> not paying anything might work too, but probably slower
[02:00:29] <Gamma-X> * Gamma-X looks for shiny item ------->
[02:00:33] <cradek> (now I'm not totally serious anymore)
[02:01:28] <SWPadnos> almost definitely slower, unless the programmer you hire takes the money and moves to Aruba
[02:01:36] <Gamma-X> lol
[02:01:48] <cradek> SWPadnos: remember, only half in advance :-)
[02:01:54] <SWPadnos> hmmm.
[02:01:58] <SWPadnos> then it's $6k
[02:02:34] <anonimasu> -_-
[02:02:49] <anonimasu> Gamma-X: what is it you need/want really?
[02:03:23] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos thinks he wants to be able to toss a piece of stock on a vacuum table, and have EMC machine it correctly for him
[02:03:37] <Gamma-X> corract and also..
[02:03:37] <anonimasu> emc2 is several thousands of dollars cheaper then any other control there is and you wont have to pay a shitload of crap for being able to probe with it.
[02:03:46] <cradek> * cradek kind of thinks he wants everything that every other control promises
[02:03:52] <SWPadnos> free!
[02:03:58] <Gamma-X> wow 2 winners
[02:04:09] <Gamma-X> i like bells and whistles...
[02:04:10] <cradek> Gamma-X: I'm not picking on you really, but I get this impression
[02:04:13] <Gamma-X> makes me feel important
[02:04:37] <anonimasu> Gamma-X: and let's not forget how long time a tech needs to set up a control for you.
[02:04:38] <SWPadnos> http://www.thecostumer.com/cfwebstore/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=45
[02:04:54] <Gamma-X> im not sayin in any way do this do that, im just sayin it might be a good addition in the future if its not already in there.
[02:05:14] <anonimasu> it's been talked about but nobody's needed it enough I guess
[02:05:20] <Gamma-X> hahahahahaha
[02:05:20] <cradek> that's true
[02:05:37] <anonimasu> and it's not as trivial as it sounds either
[02:05:37] <SWPadnos> in general, if you ask if EMC can do something, and somebody says no, it's not because it's not possible, it's because it hasn't been implemented yet
[02:05:43] <Gamma-X> personally..... i know im new to emc but i think that would bring more people to emc.
[02:05:48] <cradek> I think shops avoid probes (they are extremely expensive and fragile)
[02:06:10] <Gamma-X> only because thats what made me go to emc rather than fix my control
[02:06:46] <SWPadnos> I bet most shops make a jig to hold the work (if they're doing more than a few), so a trained monkey can babystit the machine instead of a skilled operator
[02:06:50] <anonimasu> yep
[02:06:53] <anonimasu> that's true..
[02:06:54] <cradek> yes
[02:06:56] <anonimasu> or use tombstones
[02:07:10] <anonimasu> or other fixturing systems
[02:07:12] <SWPadnos> well, that's for ewhen the monkey makes a mistake ;)
[02:07:17] <cradek> aligning existing workpieces freehand is best avoided
[02:07:31] <anonimasu> if you need to do that you've got a bad design..
[02:07:40] <anonimasu> well, bad machining strategy
[02:07:50] <Gamma-X> its more than that though that was just an idea...
[02:07:51] <SWPadnos> bad process ...
[02:07:56] <anonimasu> yep
[02:08:08] <anonimasu> all re-aligning should be with a fixture..
[02:08:12] <anonimasu> if nescessary..
[02:08:17] <SWPadnos> oh - it's a good idea, just not as critical for most people as you'd think
[02:08:17] <JymmmEMC> You all have to see this... http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/01/08/martin.louderback.intv.cnn
[02:08:24] <Gamma-X> i mainly want to be able to digitize and reproduce in a few simple steps.
[02:08:25] <anonimasu> yeah
[02:08:26] <JymmmEMC> It's well worth the trouble
[02:09:08] <cradek> Gamma-X: it's very hard to use a mill as a photocopier for solid objects. It's probably not realistic for you to do this.
[02:09:18] <anonimasu> Gamma-X: I think you will have more problems then that
[02:09:32] <anonimasu> Gamma-X: you've got a whole shitload to learn about cutting metal first ;)
[02:09:39] <anonimasu> and how to set stuff up
[02:09:39] <cradek> it was done before cnc, but with carefully made patterns
[02:09:47] <SWPadnos> with a lot of expense and time, you may be able to get to that point
[02:09:48] <cradek> now cnc is a much better solution than tracer mills
[02:10:06] <cradek> (much much much)
[02:10:17] <SWPadnos> but it's an order of magnitude harder to design a machine that makes it "easy" to do
[02:10:26] <anonimasu> also, cad drawing off a already made part is often more economical then digitizing it
[02:10:54] <anonimasu> so you dont need to much around woth point clouds at all
[02:11:15] <anonimasu> and also to get real editable models..
[02:11:22] <anonimasu> unless its a complex ~ surface..
[02:12:22] <anonimasu> probing isnt very fast either
[04:42:17] <LawrenceG> * LawrenceG got a new PIC programmer toy from fedex today..... very cool
[04:42:40] <SWPadnos> well, if you like retro MCUs ;)
[04:43:07] <LawrenceG> hey... the dspics are close to pdp-11's so I get your point!
[04:43:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:43:46] <SWPadnos> for your amusement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_problems_solved_by_MacGyver
[04:44:20] <LawrenceG> amazing little one chip wonders... wth do we need quad core P4's?
[04:44:40] <SWPadnos> well, they have a carry flag that's actually useful, for one thing
[04:45:20] <SWPadnos> or 4, in the case of a quad core
[04:45:55] <LawrenceG> 3 spare in case the first when gets lost at 3ghz
[04:46:02] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:46:12] <SWPadnos> lots of carrying to do in those CPUs
[04:48:26] <SWPadnos> I just picked up the G-Rex again, starting to work on an ARM replacement for the Rabbit
[04:49:41] <LawrenceG> need any replacement LEGS?
[04:49:51] <SWPadnos> legs?
[04:49:57] <SWPadnos> heh -no
[04:50:12] <LawrenceG> maybe cost an ARM and a LEG...
[04:50:27] <SWPadnos> no, the sum of the parts is more expensive
[04:50:40] <SWPadnos> (ie, a Rabbit should cost more than the ARM-based replacement) :)
[04:50:55] <SWPadnos> err- more than some of the parts, if you want to look at it that way :)
[04:50:55] <LawrenceG> compared to my old jdm program, the pickit 2 flies
[04:51:11] <SWPadnos> pickit?
[04:51:20] <LawrenceG> not quite as fast as using a boot loader
[04:51:30] <SWPadnos> modtronix
[04:52:06] <SWPadnos> hmm. how fast is it?
[04:52:15] <SWPadnos> I have the - err - the other one
[04:52:19] <SWPadnos> with a Q in the name
[04:52:25] <SWPadnos> QuickWriter - that's it
[04:52:55] <LawrenceG> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/PICkit%202%20User%20Guide_51553D.pdf
[04:53:28] <LawrenceG> loading a 48k program into a dspic takes about 15 seconds
[04:53:47] <SWPadnos> ok, USB with timing controlled by a microcontroller, rather than the older parallel-port based ones (or serial)
[04:53:53] <SWPadnos> ok, that's pretty good
[04:54:36] <LawrenceG> yes... works on computers without serial/parallel which seem to be very common these days
[04:54:37] <SWPadnos> I never liked the distinction that Microchip makes between "prototype programming" and "production programming"
[04:55:09] <LawrenceG> from the old eprom programmer days.... tested at spec extremes
[04:55:33] <SWPadnos> sure, except that their MPLAB programmer doesn't do that (that I recall), but they still recommend it for production programming
[04:56:03] <SWPadnos> they mention that the chips should be checked at high and low voltage extremes, but I don't think that programmer did the tests
[04:56:32] <LawrenceG> I wish I lived close to a big city that had some fpga courses.... there are several neat things I would like to try
[04:56:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:56:46] <SWPadnos> where are you?
[04:57:04] <LawrenceG> Vancouver Island (west coast of Canada)
[04:57:46] <LawrenceG> studying the mesa stuff has been very interesting
[04:57:50] <SWPadnos> ah - so Seattle / Portland are probably the closest places for high tech classes like that
[04:57:59] <SWPadnos> unless Vancouver has good stuff
[04:59:08] <LawrenceG> probably something in either U. Victoria (2 hours drive) or UBC in Vancouver... a significantly longer swim
[05:00:15] <SWPadnos> FPGA stuff seems a lot like a new programming language - you can get by without a lot of deep knowledge, up to a point
[05:00:30] <SWPadnos> that's when you need the crash course in "everything you don't know about FPGAs"
[05:00:33] <SWPadnos> and the HDLs
[05:01:07] <LawrenceG> some pretty bright boys on this chan to help with mentoring... just need the spend the time to learn it
[05:01:15] <SWPadnos> heh
[05:02:25] <LawrenceG> http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en023805
[05:03:01] <LawrenceG> they had the DV164120 on for $39 over xmas... I see the promo code doesnt work anymore
[05:04:33] <LawrenceG> can get the programmer for $35 which is pretty good.... not much more than a serial adapter
[05:05:06] <SWPadnos> that's about the price of the equivalent AVR USB or serial programmer
[05:05:13] <SWPadnos> at DigiKey
[05:06:35] <LawrenceG> I was having issues running my jdm programmer under vmware... had to break down and build a windows box :{
[05:06:43] <SWPadnos> bummer
[05:06:43] <LawrenceG> maybe the usb will work better
[05:06:59] <SWPadnos> it should - it doesn't rely on timing from the PC
[05:07:04] <SWPadnos> the other one may have
[05:07:41] <SWPadnos> hmmm - it's serial, so it may not be so timing dependent
[05:08:53] <LawrenceG> too many layers between wanting to flip a bit on and the hardware turning on..... USB is bad as well, but the pickit 2 uses a pic 18f2550 for the usb and low level programming
[05:08:54] <SWPadnos> any reason you didn't use the Linux version of the jdm software?
[05:09:39] <LawrenceG> ?? I was using picprog under wine or vmware... never found a native version
[05:09:52] <SWPadnos> http://hyvatti.iki.fi/~jaakko/pic/picprog.html
[05:10:14] <SWPadnos> there's even a .deb package :)
[05:10:22] <LawrenceG> opps... I need dspic 30f series to work
[05:10:56] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos have u ever known glass scales to be able to take an encoders place?
[05:11:03] <SWPadnos> I don't know any glass scales
[05:11:37] <Gamma-X> linear same thing
[05:11:39] <SWPadnos> obviously, since many CNCs (which people are retrofitting now) have them, they must work
[05:11:53] <SWPadnos> I know what they are - I have zero experience actually using or tuning systems with them
[05:11:54] <Gamma-X> will they affect the machine in a bad way u think?
[05:11:59] <SWPadnos> everything I know is in the IRC logs ;)
[05:12:10] <Gamma-X> lol ive red a lot of urs
[05:12:46] <SWPadnos> my suspicion is that the systems that use them have another control loop other than position - such as velocity or torque
[05:13:03] <SWPadnos> your CNC probably has velocity-mode servo amps, with tachs
[05:13:34] <SWPadnos> from what I've heard, tuning dual- or triple-loop PID systems is not for the faint of heart
[05:13:39] <LawrenceG> http://www.baycom.org/~tom/dspic/ ... i did use this linux stuff but it has a few bugs as well..... parallel port programmer
[05:14:01] <SWPadnos> probably similar to the old Hopco programmer we used to use
[05:14:05] <SWPadnos> about 15 years ago :)
[05:14:29] <Gamma-X> yup
[05:14:53] <LawrenceG> http://members.shaw.ca/swstuff/dspic-programmer.html the one I built!
[05:15:15] <SWPadnos> ewww
[05:15:18] <SWPadnos> I mean - nice!
[05:15:19] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos i know theres tachs in them.
[05:15:33] <LawrenceG> note fancy use of hot glue for cable strain relief
[05:15:50] <SWPadnos> you don't want to know how many products have that ;)
[05:16:01] <eric_U> this is what my robot used to look like: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250202580353&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015
[05:16:36] <SWPadnos> cool. and it's not even 1000 miles from me
[05:16:55] <LawrenceG> cool... looks that that could be painful to get in the way of
[05:17:02] <eric_U> deadly
[05:17:13] <LawrenceG> built to box
[05:21:49] <eric_U> I just bought a box of 50 din rail terminals for a buck
[05:35:26] <LawrenceG> good deal
[07:21:14] <micges> hello
[16:22:02] <archivist> naughty bot
[16:22:45] <skunkworks118> Thanks alex
[16:22:50] <alex_joni> np
[16:32:03] <micges> solid state mean table moving source no ?
[16:32:37] <cradek> here 'solid state' means transistorized (no tubes/valves)
[16:33:32] <micges> its CO2 laser
[16:34:17] <micges> in present we have only one laser operational
[16:35:16] <micges> about 450 W
[16:35:56] <cradek> I don't know if 'solid state' means something special for lasers, it might
[16:36:50] <archivist> diode lasers
[16:37:00] <skunkworks118> It looked compact - I thougt it was laser diodes or such
[16:37:01] <skunkworks118> right
[16:37:33] <micges> no it isnt solid state
[16:38:11] <micges> old fation CO2 HE N
[16:41:55] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, http://www.cmhsoftware.com/productw.htm
[16:42:19] <micges> to this laser we builded table and rest
[16:42:45] <micges> point is that on 3 shifts 24h/day we have delays
[16:43:16] <micges> I want to speedup as much as possible
[16:43:47] <micges> reason I asked about speed of M4/M5 code
[16:44:20] <micges> cradek: we will try using comparator
[16:49:54] <micges> my pics on wiki shows few day ago finished XYZ table mill machine :)
[16:55:17] <alex_joni> micges: M4, M5 should be pretty fast.. not sure why it's not
[16:55:38] <alex_joni> micges: how did you measure it?
[16:58:01] <micges> rising delays until end of burned row will be sharp :)
[16:58:27] <alex_joni> I don't understand
[16:59:02] <micges> after burning G1 line I added G4 delay
[17:01:05] <micges> and rised delay
[17:01:38] <micges> and it was 100ms when end of burn will be sharp
[17:01:41] <alex_joni> can you write 2-3 lines of code?
[17:01:59] <alex_joni> M3
[17:02:04] <alex_joni> G1x100f100
[17:02:11] <alex_joni> G4p0.1
[17:02:14] <alex_joni> M4
[17:02:15] <alex_joni> ?
[17:02:50] <micges> M04
[17:02:51] <micges> G4 P0.1
[17:02:51] <micges> G1 X100 Y100
[17:02:51] <micges> M05
[17:02:58] <micges> G4 P0.1
[17:03:06] <micges> G0 X200 Y200
[17:03:28] <micges> its now generated code and its ok
[17:04:27] <micges> We also add new fast throttle and still have no speedup of m4 m5 :(
[17:07:33] <alex_joni> micges: G4 is not something you want to use..
[17:07:42] <alex_joni> probably true for M04 and M05 too
[17:07:54] <alex_joni> they don't have a deterministic execution time
[17:08:21] <alex_joni> you would want to use M64/65
[17:08:28] <alex_joni> but I'm not sure those are working atm
[17:08:57] <alex_joni> the other way is using a comparator on Z (like cradek suggested)
[17:09:23] <micges> they working but someone also mentioned they have no deterministic time
[17:09:32] <SWPadnos> micges, is there an output fromthe laser that tells when it's "ready to cut"?
[17:09:35] <micges> like m4
[17:10:42] <SWPadnos> *from* the laser drive
[17:11:03] <micges> I dont know
[17:11:12] <SWPadnos> ok - that's something to look for
[17:11:29] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: hmm.. you could use feed-hold with that
[17:11:38] <SWPadnos> the ideal way to do this is probably to use a comparator for Z, and use feed-hold until the laser is ready
[17:11:43] <SWPadnos> alex_joni, exactly
[17:11:52] <jepler> yeah something like feedhold <= ((laser-request-out and not laser-ready-in)
[17:12:28] <SWPadnos> since those are realtime components, the response would always be within 1 ms of the external events (assuming youhave a 1KHz servo period)
[17:12:30] <micges> I have lost :)
[17:12:33] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:12:49] <SWPadnos> the motion controller has an input that can tell it to halt all motion
[17:12:50] <alex_joni> micges: you don't use Z at the moment.. right?
[17:12:56] <SWPadnos> basically a pause button
[17:12:58] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: let me try to explain
[17:13:00] <SWPadnos> ok
[17:13:04] <alex_joni> micges: you don't use Z at the moment.. right?
[17:13:10] <alex_joni> only X & Y...
[17:13:23] <micges> at the moment only XY
[17:13:37] <alex_joni> ok.. then you can implement an imaginary Z axis in emc2
[17:13:59] <alex_joni> output from emc2 (Zpos-cmd goes back to Zpos-fb)
[17:14:17] <alex_joni> then emc2 thinks that axis is always in position and works great
[17:14:29] <alex_joni> (it's just like the sim config..)
[17:14:43] <micges> I understand
[17:14:44] <micges> go on
[17:14:51] <alex_joni> you can then put a comparator on the Z position, and say: if Z > 0 then laser needs to turn on
[17:14:59] <alex_joni> if Z <=0 laser needs to be turned off
[17:15:36] <alex_joni> then in your program you can use Gxx Z1 or Z0.1 to turn the laser on, and Z0 .. Z-1 to turn it off
[17:16:17] <alex_joni> changing the max vel & accel for Z, and setting the comparator at Z0.x you can adjust the time it takes for the output to actually turn on
[17:17:04] <micges> ok
[17:17:32] <alex_joni> now.. you don't want to turn on the laser and immediately start moving
[17:17:44] <alex_joni> it takes a bit for the laser to turn on and pierce the material
[17:18:26] <micges> yes
[17:18:45] <alex_joni> ideally the laser would have an output (towards the PC) telling that the laser is on
[17:19:05] <alex_joni> then you can set up emc2 to wait on that signal before it starts moving
[17:19:25] <alex_joni> so.. Z>0 => laser-turn-on
[17:19:40] <alex_joni> if (laser-turn-on AND laser-is-on) then emc2 can move
[17:20:16] <micges> I will surely check that thanks
[17:20:35] <alex_joni> to do that in HAL you need to know there's a pin called motion.feed-hold
[17:20:35] <micges> how can I log IRC talking ?
[17:20:41] <alex_joni> logger_emc: bookmark
[17:20:41] <alex_joni> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-01-10.txt
[17:21:06] <alex_joni> micges: while the motion.feed-hold is 0, emc2 won't move
[17:21:18] <alex_joni> if motion.feed-hold is 1, then emc2 can move
[17:21:35] <micges> I know I used this signal
[17:21:38] <alex_joni> so you need to connect laser-turn-on AND laser-is-on to motion.feed-hold
[17:21:40] <SWPadnos> hmmm. there's a problem here
[17:21:48] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: moves without laser
[17:21:56] <alex_joni> you can OR with another condition :P
[17:22:01] <SWPadnos> no, moving Z>0 to turn the laser on
[17:22:05] <SWPadnos> right
[17:22:46] <SWPadnos> you need motion to move Z, but want to restrict motion until Z>0 and laser-is-on
[17:25:00] <alex_joni> right..
[17:25:27] <SWPadnos> but you still want to restrict XY motion, even while you need Z "motion" to control the laser
[17:25:46] <alex_joni> I think you can overcome that by using very high Z accels
[17:26:06] <SWPadnos> or use two comparators - one for laser control, the other (slightly higher) for feedhold
[17:26:20] <alex_joni> yeah.. soemthing like that
[17:26:53] <alex_joni> the idea is to have laser turn on in the first servo_cycle (or at least in the second one).. but feed-hold to be active in the same period
[17:28:24] <SWPadnos> I guess it would work if feedhold = (want-laser-on and laser-is-not-on)
[17:35:23] <micges> I have docs about laser
[17:35:35] <micges> I will search those signals
[17:35:44] <micges> I get the idea
[17:36:04] <SWPadnos> great
[17:36:57] <micges> Why move are real time and any another IO doesnt ?
[17:37:10] <SWPadnos> that's a long story :)
[17:37:21] <fenn> because nobody's gotten around to it yet
[17:37:24] <micges> this is problem or wante ?
[17:37:40] <SWPadnos> but the short version is that the design of EMC specifically required that motion and I/O could run on separate physical computers (or other devices)
[17:37:49] <alex_joni> that was initially
[17:37:54] <SWPadnos> right
[17:38:04] <SWPadnos> now, it's more because we haven't changed it :)
[17:38:04] <alex_joni> after that .. I think the real issue is that for milling you don't need RT IO's
[17:38:38] <alex_joni> starting the spindle takes a couple of seconds .. so having the spindle-start signal coming out at .001 seconds.. is not really important
[17:38:48] <micges> I know
[17:39:08] <alex_joni> micges: we had M64/65 working in RT at some point in emc2
[17:39:27] <alex_joni> but after that the TP got replaced (the old one had issues), and it never got fully implemented back on
[17:39:41] <micges> but with this I will have in short future bypass this problem somehow
[17:39:43] <alex_joni> M64/65 are supposed to get put on the motion queue and activated in RT
[17:40:26] <skunkworks118> so - it is cradeks fault.. I figured. ;)
[17:42:10] <micges> Is there any plan what have to be done in Rt and what doesnt ?
[17:42:21] <SWPadnos> I don't think you could say there's a "plan"
[17:42:39] <SWPadnos> there are a lot of ideas though ...
[17:44:51] <micges> those ideas was writed somewhere ?
[17:45:02] <SWPadnos> err - I'm not sure
[17:45:27] <SWPadnos> if you have ideas, you can certainly put them on the wiki, or send them to the developers (or users) mailing lists
[17:45:33] <SWPadnos> or tell us here :)
[17:47:12] <micges> :)
[17:54:09] <skunkworks118> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLbzaJe6Tg
[18:00:43] <alex_joni> holy crap
[18:00:51] <alex_joni> wonder how the g-codes looks for that :)
[18:01:04] <SWPadnos> O200 (hobbing routine) :)
[18:01:08] <SWPadnos> err
[18:01:11] <SWPadnos> O200 call (hobbing routine) :)
[18:01:35] <alex_joni> I meant more for the two spindles
[18:01:42] <alex_joni> the hobbing seems kinda simple
[18:01:48] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:01:55] <alex_joni> Sxx ?
[18:02:03] <SWPadnos> indeed
[18:02:04] <alex_joni> is that the speed of both spindles? :D
[18:02:19] <SWPadnos> it probably needs to be, when they're both running
[18:02:24] <alex_joni> saw one of these once: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP2UYo0LNAs&feature=related
[18:02:28] <SWPadnos> unless you want to twist the work apart
[18:02:40] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: or cut things with the second spindle
[18:02:46] <alex_joni> like the hexagon cutting
[18:03:06] <SWPadnos> sure, but it looked like those were concentric, and the live tooling was a separate carriage
[18:03:20] <alex_joni> for this one.. yeah
[18:04:32] <alex_joni> heh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q_q53wsyHU&feature=related
[18:08:29] <alex_joni> cnc anyone? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHTXaU7GZC0&feature=related
[18:16:12] <alex_joni> holy crap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkD26CQpDDo&feature=related <- that's crazy
[18:17:02] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:17:10] <SWPadnos> now they just need to speed it up a little ;)
[18:17:42] <lerneaen_hydra> hey neat :)
[18:18:32] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1SADcP5g1o&NR=1
[18:22:31] <SWPadnos> heh - realistic - it seems she necer stops talking :)
[18:22:35] <SWPadnos> never
[18:23:58] <alex_joni> haha
[20:32:09] <alex_joni> the fud I like: http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/funny-pictures-cat-head-food.jpg
[20:47:32] <skunkworks607> I don't understand how this can be acurite.
[20:47:33] <skunkworks607> http://www.hobbycnc.hu/CNC/Mech8/Mechanika8.htm
[20:48:05] <skunkworks607> the outside threaded rods can rotate independantly..
[20:48:53] <skunkworks607> so - if I walk up to the machine and fiddle with the 3 outside threaded rods - I could make the machine move... without moving the leadscre.
[20:48:55] <skunkworks607> screw
[20:50:39] <skunkworks607> or.. maybe the outside 'threaded rods' are not threaded... hmm that might work.
[20:50:54] <skunkworks607> just groves
[20:50:58] <skunkworks607> grooves
[20:51:23] <skunkworks607> that is probably why they are so much bigger so they match the pitch better..
[20:52:13] <skunkworks607> * skunkworks607 trys to visualize
[20:53:00] <alex_joni> hmm
[20:53:37] <skunkworks607> that is what I thought..
[20:53:39] <skunkworks607> ;)
[20:55:22] <alex_joni> so the idea is to adjust the 3 screws holding the big rollers till the backlash is removed
[20:57:09] <alex_joni> skunkworks607: I'd take this : http://www.hobbycnc.hu/CNC/Mech24/24%20(32).jpg
[20:58:23] <skunkworks607> Yes - even rolled ball screws with a hacked - springloaded double nut would be more exciting for me.
[20:58:57] <skunkworks607> I would use 4 though - preload 2 one direction and the other 2 the opposite
[20:59:07] <skunkworks607> (threaded rod hack)
[20:59:41] <skunkworks607> (more balanced)
[21:04:07] <Gamma-X> i gots a question
[21:04:56] <alex_joni> this is more like it: http://www.hobbycnc.hu/CNC/Mech25/Mechanika25.html
[21:04:59] <alex_joni> Gamma-X: dataja
[21:05:03] <Gamma-X> will i mess up the vfd if I connect it directly to the main power on the machine and just use teh reverse button
[21:05:17] <Gamma-X> like not use reverse on the vfd?
[21:06:44] <SWPadnos> you probably don't want to keep turning the VFD off and on
[21:07:13] <SWPadnos> which is what happens when you change direction
[21:07:13] <skunkworks607> alex_joni: that is a nice setup
[21:07:13] <SWPadnos> (unless you use the VFD, which can alter the phase sequence)
[21:08:45] <fenn> skunkworks607: they are threaded
[21:09:15] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos well.... the thing im tryin to do is not spend anymore money and hook it up to the machine
[21:09:40] <fenn> you can make them with plain grooves but then they have to rotate around the screw in a planetary gear fashion
[21:10:00] <fenn> er.. something like that
[21:10:04] <alex_joni> fenn: why?
[21:10:04] <skunkworks607> fenn: are you sure? do you see what I am saying.. If they are threaded - I could walk up to the machine and change its position by only rotating the outside threaded rods
[21:10:21] <fenn> * fenn used to know what he was talking about
[21:10:21] <SWPadnos> make a plug for the VFD and plug it into a wall outlet. you're running it on 3-phase anyway
[21:10:33] <fenn> skunkworks607: you would have to rotate the screw also
[21:11:46] <SWPadnos> also, if the VFD works regardless of the input power phasing, the spindle won't reverse
[21:11:46] <SWPadnos> the VFD synthesizes the AC waveforms, and it will continue to synthesize a forward waveform
[21:11:46] <Gamma-X> i understand
[21:11:46] <fenn> skunkworks607: if you just rotate one of the threaded rods, it changes the preload
[21:11:46] <Gamma-X> but on the machine theres a reverse button wich is like swapping cables.
[21:11:46] <anonimasu> and your spindle direction relay changes the polarity of two wires.
[21:11:46] <anonimasu> well polarity/direction..
[21:11:46] <SWPadnos> and you do *NOT* want to put any kind of contactor/switch/relay between the VFD and the motor
[21:11:46] <SWPadnos> read the VFD manual, I'm sure they tell you this
[21:12:27] <Gamma-X> ok
[21:13:51] <skunkworks607> I am confused :)
[21:14:50] <SWPadnos> skunkworks607, I think the inner threaded rod on each of the 3 exterior rods is used to adjust the position of that exterior "bearing"
[21:15:22] <fenn> get two pieces of threaded rod and roll them together
[21:15:33] <SWPadnos> so you can move the exterior "bearings" side to side, which puts a preload on the drive rod
[21:15:42] <SWPadnos> but the exterior "bearings" can spin, which allows the whole thing to move
[21:25:22] <fenn> i think they use the simple groove design to increase rigidity/strength: http://www.duffnorton.com/products/spiracon.aspx
[21:25:41] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I'm not sure I'd buy from them:
[21:25:41] <SWPadnos> "The screw straightness is within 0.1mm:1,000 mm (0.004 inches:36 inches)."
[21:25:41] <SWPadnos> except that 1000mm is ~39.6 inches
[21:25:41] <fenn> i'm not sure i'd buy from you either :P
[21:25:41] <Gamma-X> im on the phone wit anilam right now
[21:25:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:25:41] <fenn> 39.370079
[21:25:41] <SWPadnos> at least I can convert between imperial and metric ;)
[21:25:41] <SWPadnos> well, if I had used a reference or units, then I would have been closer
[21:25:41] <SWPadnos> hmmm. it seems DreamHost is mostly down
[21:25:41] <jepler> logger_emc: is that true?
[21:25:42] <jepler> I'm logging. Sorry, searching removed.
[21:25:42] <SWPadnos> I can't ssh into it, and I know some other DH sites that are having trouble