#emc | Logs for 2008-01-09

[00:59:01] <Tzak> anyone know why the pluto-p board is having problems to work with 2.2.2???
[01:14:06] <jmkasunich> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.html
[01:14:22] <jmkasunich> hardcore DIY
[01:14:50] <SWPadnos> Tzak, was pluto working for you before and stopped with 2.2.2, or is this your first try with 2.2.2?
[01:14:59] <SWPadnos> also, are you using pluto-servo or pluto-step?
[01:15:28] <Tzak> first try
[01:15:50] <Tzak> pluto-servo .. i was talking to you a few days ago SwPadnos
[01:15:59] <SWPadnos> oh, ok. :)
[01:16:41] <Tzak> I have my other test computer running i think 2.1.2 and am making progress with it
[01:29:40] <Tzak> SWPadnos u still there?
[01:29:59] <eric_U> is there a circuit online for the pluto servo?
[01:30:21] <SWPadnos> yeah - just watching that guy make his own tubes o_O
[01:30:32] <eric_U> that is pretty impressive
[01:30:42] <jmkasunich> amazing really
[01:30:46] <Tzak> yeah i saw that too really interesting
[01:30:55] <SWPadnos> eric_U, the schematic for the pluto is only available to people who buy it I think
[01:30:56] <jmkasunich> I dunno how much of the equipment he made himself
[01:31:01] <jmkasunich> lots of it looked homeade
[01:31:06] <jmkasunich> I like the spotwelder
[01:31:12] <SWPadnos> the FPGA code and driver source are included in the EMC repository
[01:31:57] <eric_U> what do you hook to it?
[01:32:04] <Tzak> i'm not really sure what the problem as it is working on my other system
[01:32:14] <SWPadnos> uh - a servo drive?
[01:32:31] <SWPadnos> it outputs PDM or PWM to an H-bridge, I belileve
[01:32:59] <SWPadnos> Tzak, can you try the liveCD with 2.2 on the system where it works? it could be a parallel port problem
[01:33:20] <eric_U> so Tzak, you have an L298 circuit hooked up tothe pluto?
[01:33:24] <Tzak> i havent tried that yet but i can...
[01:33:33] <Tzak> yeah
[01:33:58] <SWPadnos> I guess before you do that, it would make sense for me (or someone who really knows about pluto) to ask what the actual problem is
[01:34:11] <SWPadnos> I definitely don't remember that, since I don't remember talking about it before ;)
[01:34:26] <eric_U> was the oscillation problem you were reporting on cnczone on 2.2?
[01:34:35] <Tzak> on my other setup i have everything sort of working.. but i can't get the motor to servo correctly
[01:34:46] <eric_U> so oscillation on 2.1
[01:34:57] <Tzak> yeah
[01:34:58] <eric_U> no response on 2.2
[01:35:44] <Tzak> it could be the paralle port so i will check that but on 2.1 i would still like to figure out why its not servoed?
[01:36:05] <eric_U> too much integral
[01:36:37] <Tzak> yeah i thin my numbers are like P=25 I=1 D=.1
[01:37:26] <eric_U> really hard to say, my first controls professor said to never use a gain over 20 :)
[01:37:32] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:37:43] <eric_U> with an op amp
[01:37:47] <eric_U> forgot that part
[01:37:52] <SWPadnos> heh^2
[01:38:45] <jmkasunich> "These lasers are fascinating and they emit a very powerful fun field in addition to their ultraviolet beam."
[01:38:57] <eric_U> sounds dangerous
[01:39:03] <SWPadnos> plus they make certain clothing glow, like bras
[01:39:16] <SWPadnos> err - and white starched shirts
[01:39:20] <gezar> what is a "fun field"?
[01:39:30] <Tzak> i have gone as low as 5 on the gain and have a huge deadband even though the deadband is set
[01:39:33] <SWPadnos> it's like "Field of Dreams", only fun
[01:39:35] <jmkasunich> its a field emitted from hacked gadgets
[01:39:55] <eric_U> deadband probably isn't that big, the gain is too low to make it pay attention
[01:40:01] <gezar> ive made gas cans emit a fun field then
[01:40:33] <eric_U> I knew someone who used his research laser to get free lunches for a couple of months
[01:40:44] <SWPadnos> well, if there's a "flat zone' in motor torque/speed near zero output, that makes a "fun" discontinuity in the tuning
[01:40:49] <eric_U> one of those scratch and sniff games
[01:41:14] <Tzak> yeah so im not really sure whats going on ?
[01:41:45] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure if there's a way to tune the PID around a driver dead zone
[01:42:26] <Tzak> why would there be such a large deadzone?
[01:42:33] <SWPadnos> driver design?
[01:43:01] <SWPadnos> I don't know how well the L298 performs at low PWM duty cycles
[01:43:09] <SWPadnos> (or PDM, as the case may be)
[01:43:46] <eric_U> how bad is the oscillation? It's fairly typical to sit there and hum
[01:43:46] <Tzak> im running PDM
[01:44:11] <Tzak> no its noticable the whole motor shakes
[01:44:34] <SWPadnos> eric_U, I see this as a similar problem to using a linear scale - the PID ramps up a bit because there's no feedback for a little while, and when the motor finally starts to move, it overshoots
[01:44:42] <SWPadnos> and so we repeat the process in the other direction
[01:45:00] <SWPadnos> Tzak, another possible cause would be friction in the drive system
[01:46:14] <Tzak> no the motor is not even hooked up to anthing
[01:46:32] <SWPadnos> or in the motor bearings themselves ...
[01:46:40] <eric_U> by all means, hook it up to something :)
[01:46:46] <SWPadnos> "stiction"
[01:47:16] <eric_U> try it without the integral term just for giggles
[01:47:32] <Tzak> ok i could do that
[01:47:36] <SWPadnos> heh - true. the added mass acts like a damping filter - it's much easier to tune (from what I've heard) when there's a load
[01:48:52] <Tzak> i just dont want to have things going all over the place
[01:49:05] <eric_U> what kind of motors do you have?
[01:49:07] <SWPadnos> step 1: hook up e-stop button. step 2: hook up motors ;)
[01:49:37] <Tzak> sorry i have to clarify actually im running an high speed discrete h-bridge ..
[01:49:38] <eric_U> reminds me of a science fair project: me to daughter: "here, hold this motor"
[01:50:09] <SWPadnos> daughter: "uh-uh - I remember what happened last time you said that" :)
[01:50:21] <eric_U> she would say that now :)
[01:51:00] <Tzak> i have tried with a I=0 but nothing changes
[01:51:23] <cradek> if it oscillates with P only, P is too high
[01:51:29] <gezar> hmm, seems you dont have anything to slow the motor's own inertia
[01:51:33] <eric_U> debugging the circuit and the control at the same time is a difficult task
[01:51:33] <cradek> adding mass really will help
[01:53:01] <Tzak> the motor should be stable with nothing hooked to it
[01:53:04] <gezar> my shaper cutter has decided to give up with good cuts, sigh
[01:53:27] <eric_U> not in a feedback control system with multiple sources of hysteresis
[01:55:59] <eric_U> and the delay using a computer can't help, don't know how much it will hurt, depends on the system
[02:00:03] <Tzak> there is no friction.. the only friction now is in the motor
[02:00:36] <Tzak> there is no friction.. only the motor has friction cause its not connected to anything
[02:00:41] <eric_U> is it a servo motor, or a motor made for something else
[02:00:57] <Tzak> no DC servo
[02:05:02] <gezar> minute variations in the rectified dc waveform or even in the ac wave form are enough to cause havok on an un loaded system, typically those slight varaitions are absorbed into the total mass being turned/moved/displaced, you have nothing to displace so your fighting how stable all your signals are
[02:07:37] <Tzak> then you are relying on the mass of the system to make it become stable ... that is un-predictable
[02:07:40] <SWPadnos> Tzak, what size are the motors?
[02:07:45] <SWPadnos> no, it's necessary
[02:08:34] <SWPadnos> tiny motors can accelerate at amazing rates. If you leave the EMC2 servo rate at 1 KHz, then the motor can get moving much faster than EMC2 can keep up
[02:08:58] <eric_U> too bad the pluto doesn't cost $25, $60 is too much for a throw away project
[02:09:13] <SWPadnos> if you increase the servo rate, then you might be able to get it working unloaded
[02:09:42] <Tzak> i am running fairly large motors rated up to 400w
[02:09:44] <SWPadnos> but that's not necessary for a real system, because the load works against the rapid acceleration of the motor, slowing down the system
[02:09:54] <SWPadnos> with an L298?
[02:09:56] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[02:10:05] <eric_U> he said he has an h bridge
[02:10:32] <SWPadnos> you aqsked about an L298 and he said "yeah"
[02:10:35] <eric_U> high power, unknown provenance
[02:10:36] <SWPadnos> asked
[02:10:39] <eric_U> yes he did
[02:10:43] <Tzak> a discrete h-bridge
[02:10:52] <SWPadnos> ok
[02:10:59] <Tzak> so i was mistake with the l-298
[02:11:06] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[02:11:34] <eric_U> he just wanted to get me to shut up, didn't work :)
[02:11:58] <SWPadnos> bummer
[02:11:59] <Tzak> is there any info on the output wave form signal of the pluto???
[02:12:20] <SWPadnos> I think it's like the PDM mode of stepgen, only faster
[02:12:34] <SWPadnos> so you could look at the stepgen source code
[02:12:36] <eric_U> did you get the circuit from somewhere Tzak?
[02:12:48] <SWPadnos> it's also possible that that's in the manual, but I don't know
[02:12:49] <Tzak> do you know what speed its running at?
[02:13:00] <SWPadnos> I believe the base clock is 40 MHz
[02:13:10] <eric_U> I know skunkworks published one somewhere
[02:13:15] <SWPadnos> I don't know what the minimum pulse width is
[02:13:41] <Tzak> yeah do you know what the min and max shape of the pule width is? 0-100%
[02:13:52] <SWPadnos> it's possible that the FETs (assuming that's what your bridge is) aren't being turned on fully with the very narrow pulses at low duty cycles (??)
[02:14:10] <SWPadnos> dunno - there should be a min and max parameter, but I don't know how they're used
[02:15:08] <Tzak> any idea where i could find that out?
[02:15:24] <SWPadnos> in the pluto-servo docs I hope
[02:15:34] <SWPadnos> man pluto-servo might shed some light
[02:15:35] <eric_U> the source code is available
[02:15:37] <SWPadnos> also the sample config
[02:15:43] <SWPadnos> and the EMC2 manual
[02:15:47] <SWPadnos> and the source
[02:15:47] <jepler> "The PWM period is approximately 19.5kHz (40MHz / 2047). A PDM-like mode is also available." http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/hal_drivers.html#sec:pluto-servo
[02:16:06] <SWPadnos> thanks - I was about to go look for the online docs
[02:16:46] <Tzak> jepler ..do you kow what the pwm width and deadband are on it?
[02:18:58] <eric_U> skunkworks is hiding
[02:19:02] <jepler> You would configure a "dead time" by setting max-dc. e.g., a max-dc of .98 would mean that 2% of each cycle (about 1uS) is "off".
[02:19:42] <jepler> (this also means that values of .98*scale and above do not give any additional duty cycle)
[02:23:25] <SWPadnos> ah - and there's a corresponding min-dc parameter for setting the "base PWM width that will actually cause some motor motion" ??
[02:25:36] <jepler> value = value / scale + offset;
[02:25:36] <jepler> if(value < -max_dc) value = -max_dc;
[02:25:36] <jepler> else if(value > -min_dc && value < 0) value = -min_dc;
[02:25:36] <jepler> else if(value > 0 && value < min_dc) value = min_dc;
[02:25:36] <jepler> else if(value > max_dc) value = max_dc;
[02:25:44] <jepler> here's the logic that the driver uses
[02:25:58] <SWPadnos> ok - cool
[02:26:03] <SWPadnos> that should help :)
[02:26:04] <jepler> after applying scale and offset, it ensures that the value is not outside +- max_dc
[02:26:25] <jepler> then if the duty cycle is positive, it ensures that it's at least as big as min-dc
[02:26:33] <SWPadnos> hmmm. what happens if the value = 0?
[02:26:36] <jepler> and if it's negative, it ensures that it's at least as big as -min-dc
[02:26:38] <SWPadnos> duh - nevermind
[02:26:45] <SWPadnos> it doesn't get changed, that's what happens
[02:26:52] <jepler> yes
[02:27:00] <jepler> so you can get zero duty cycle even if you set min-dc
[02:27:05] <SWPadnos> sometimes I amaze even myself with dumb questions
[02:27:20] <SWPadnos> right - useful when you have DEADBAND for the PIN and TP
[02:27:23] <SWPadnos> PID
[02:27:28] <jepler> which is confusing, but so is deciding whether to give -min_dc or +min_dc for a duty cycle of 0
[02:27:41] <SWPadnos> no - zero should be zero
[02:28:08] <SWPadnos> in fact, if fabs(value) < epsilon, the output should also be zero
[02:28:19] <SWPadnos> but choosing epsilon (unless it's a parameter) would be a pain
[02:28:55] <SWPadnos> and it would be irrelevant if it's <1/2047-ish, due to the PWM/PDM resolution
[02:31:09] <jepler> another thing should be noted: if you're using pdm mode, the 'interleaving' means you won't get your entire 1uS of guaranteed off time at once
[02:31:14] <jepler> so if you need dead time don't use pdm mode
[02:35:46] <Tzak> ok well no i have allot of testing to do... I will get back to you guys and let you know where i end up.. thanks for all the help
[02:36:02] <SWPadnos> good luck - I hope you figure it out :)
[02:36:47] <jepler> so here's what the transfer function should look like: http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi-files/sandbox/Screenshot-Gnuplot.png
[02:36:58] <jepler> for scale=1, offset=0
[02:37:06] <jepler> min-dc=.25 max_dc=.75
[02:37:48] <Tzak> that link didnt load??
[02:38:03] <SWPadnos> can your browser display PNG files?
[02:38:07] <SWPadnos> (it loaded fine here)
[02:38:31] <Tzak> ok never mind
[02:39:04] <Tzak> thanks for all the help
[02:39:29] <SWPadnos> sure
[02:50:50] <gezar> was i wrong about the motor needing somthing atatched to it?
[02:52:37] <SWPadnos> no - the tuning is totally different anyway, and an unloaded motor probably responds too fast for a 1ms servo loop
[02:54:18] <gezar> can small voltage variations be enough to imbalance a motor?
[02:54:34] <SWPadnos> dunno
[02:54:43] <SWPadnos> imbalance?
[02:54:56] <SWPadnos> you mean "make it work funny"? :)
[02:55:03] <gezar> yeah
[02:55:22] <SWPadnos> ok :) (imbalance does havea meaning for 3-phase motors, but not so much for DC)
[02:55:58] <gezar> if you have a drive -- motor combo, and the drive is holding the motor steady, and the motor gets very small voltage change between the coils, can it sorta rotate on a level that the encoder would sense and then the drive try and react to?
[02:57:06] <gezar> as in the diference between being hooked to the wall, and a car battery, where the wall varries ever so slightly in both voltage, and frequency
[02:57:33] <gezar> more load on an ac system results in a drop in the frequency
[02:57:51] <SWPadnos> that would depend on the type of drive
[02:57:59] <gezar> im talking in terms of a whole town here
[02:58:25] <SWPadnos> a torque mode drive controls current (torque), so it doesn't care much if the supply voltage changes
[02:58:51] <SWPadnos> a voltage-mode driver might care more, but in essence, a servo drive is a switching power supply
[02:58:59] <gezar> even in a fixed state?
[02:59:11] <SWPadnos> the output is just regulated by tach feedback or something
[02:59:33] <SWPadnos> well, that's why you have feedback - if a position error is detected then you you can correct it
[02:59:52] <SWPadnos> I think you'd need some pretty major variations to have a problem, but that's just a hunch
[03:00:36] <gezar> so a load on the end of the shaft would be an object at rest, resisting slight issues with drive timming , but where no load exists, the motor does what it wants to do in its "frictionless " state right?
[03:00:54] <SWPadnos> err - no, I don't think so
[03:01:18] <SWPadnos> there's more friction, but possibly more important is more inertia that resists acceleration
[03:02:02] <gezar> im just trying to learn, I just dont see the purpose of a non connected motor, even a spindle motor gets enough friction from the drive belt to have the motor in a slight bind of sorts
[03:02:04] <SWPadnos> an unloaded motor still has some friction (more at rest than when moving, as usual), but once it breaks free of static friction, it just zings up to high speed at high accel
[03:02:32] <SWPadnos> oh sure - the drive gears/sheaves on a Bridgeport use up something like 10-20% of the motor power
[03:03:55] <gezar> ive had to make small adjustments on fanuc drives that when the spindle would go in for tool change, it wouldn't stop, it would rotate a bit, every sumer and winter we had to do it pretty much
[03:04:32] <SWPadnos> interesting
[03:05:04] <SWPadnos> I don't know a lot of specifics - I'm talking mostly from background information in electronics, physics, and mechanics
[03:05:19] <SWPadnos> (and I'm not a major expert in all those fields)
[03:05:32] <gezar> oh you know what, all that changed when we got the electric company to change our tranformers from 2 to 3 or something
[03:05:50] <gezar> im just picking your brains here
[03:06:48] <SWPadnos> sure - just don't take what I say as gospel - there are people with actual experience that really know the answers :)
[03:06:55] <gezar> open delta to a y delta i think is the change we had them make, they left basicaly a scope hooked up to our lines for like a month, cause we told them we had power issues, and they woudlnt belive us, till they tested things
[03:07:40] <gezar> well, its wierd for me righ tnow, normally this time of night im deep in a dungeon with my friends tryiing to defeat a monster
[03:07:48] <SWPadnos> I think this is when I say that my least favorite electronics class in college was "power transmission"
[03:07:59] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:08:39] <gezar> I hope they are beating a monster right now,
[03:10:18] <ds2> yuck
[03:10:37] <ds2> glad to see someone else hated that power xmission stuff
[03:10:42] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:11:00] <ds2> some of it is handy though
[03:11:00] <SWPadnos> plus, the professor alwas reminded me of Alfred E. Neuman
[03:11:05] <SWPadnos> so it was hard to keep a straight face
[03:11:17] <ds2> did the prof wanted to teach that stuff?
[03:11:30] <SWPadnos> oh yes - it was his specialty I think
[03:11:41] <ds2> the one I had didn't want to teach it but I think it was his turn to pay the piper
[03:12:02] <SWPadnos> heh - we had a prof like that, but instead of being an ass, he was really fun
[03:12:18] <ds2> it can be a prof's speciality but that doesn't mean he want to teach a required class to a bunch of EEs who only cared if they can get a C to fulfill the requirements
[03:12:46] <SWPadnos> we had exam questions like "a planet of xx size has a crust of yy thickness, and is filled like a giant jelly donut, with dielectric yy - what is the capacitance from the north to the south pole" :)
[03:13:02] <ds2> heh
[03:13:28] <ds2> ack E&M nightmares
[03:14:21] <SWPadnos> I liked a lot of that - we had a great professor for a lot of those
[03:14:38] <SWPadnos> Ken Golden - a physicist who ended up being the EE department head
[03:14:55] <SWPadnos> he'd say funny stuff sometimes as well
[03:15:13] <ds2> EE's had to take it twice in different depts using different units and it was not any easier the second time around :(
[03:15:26] <SWPadnos> one day, he was filling the blackboard with "interesting" equations. this happened to be during exam review time, and of course we had never seen what he was doing
[03:15:44] <ds2> they never seem to explain wtf you pick a given path for the integral other then... by XYZ law, the term is zero and...
[03:15:59] <SWPadnos> he turned around to see 50 slack jaws, and said "oh, don't run up your laundry bill - this won't be on the exam"
[03:16:09] <ds2> heh
[03:16:30] <SWPadnos> different units?
[03:16:35] <ds2> CGS vs MKS
[03:16:48] <SWPadnos> bummer
[03:16:50] <ds2> the constants are different and there are these factors of PI all over the place
[03:16:54] <SWPadnos> though it's only a few decimals
[03:17:04] <SWPadnos> shouldn't be any extra pis there
[03:17:23] <ds2> there is if some are done in radians and others are not
[03:17:29] <ds2> or something along those lines
[03:17:33] <SWPadnos> one thing my mother taught me was "always balance your units" - that served me well on many exams
[03:17:38] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[03:17:54] <ds2> balancing units works great in chem
[03:18:17] <SWPadnos> she was a physical chemist at the time (PhD - both parents)
[03:18:25] <ds2> ah heh
[03:19:13] <ds2> oh then there is the fun about the coordinate systems... cartesian, spherical, cylindrical
[03:19:39] <SWPadnos> yeah
[03:20:10] <SWPadnos> those weren't too bad for me - I have (had) a good spatial sense, and had learned about coordinate systems as a kid
[03:20:27] <ds2> except when you have to do those integrals
[03:20:49] <ds2> terms drop out in certain systems and in others you get all these sins/cos or complex exponentials :?
[03:21:26] <SWPadnos> one thing that was almost always true (on engineering tests anyway) was that you could solve all the problems with a simple calculator, or in your head someties
[03:21:29] <SWPadnos> sometimes
[03:21:52] <SWPadnos> for the "in your head" ones you were esxpected to be able to multiply/divide by 10, 5, and 2
[03:22:06] <SWPadnos> you didn't have to get a numerical answer - 23*PI would suffice
[03:22:29] <ds2> yep, or 2 * sqrt(2)
[03:22:40] <SWPadnos> so that was a good check on your work - if you were looking at sqrt(437*ln(X)), you had probably used the wrong formula
[03:23:08] <ds2> what irks me now is, HS students are not really taught to solve problems and be able to present them in these exact forms. they are told to use a calc and give a numerical approximating to so many digits
[03:23:10] <SWPadnos> also, all the constants and formulas you'd need were given on the first page (in addition to some you wouldn't need, just to keep things interesting :) )
[03:23:18] <SWPadnos> right - that's bad bad bad
[03:23:50] <SWPadnos> I was lucky enough to have a calculator (still have them actually) that had a catalog of units, given in base units
[03:24:18] <SWPadnos> (e.g. 1 watt = 1Kg*m^2/s^3)
[03:24:39] <ds2> I guess it is the audience but the G code class instructor just say use a calculator and punch in stuff blindly... it is useful to know 45 triangles are X, X, Xsqrt2 and 30deg tri are X, Xsqrt(3) and 2X
[03:24:44] <SWPadnos> so balancing units was a very useful tool, when I could decompose W, V, and ohms into base units
[03:25:00] <ds2> older versions of mathcad are great for that
[03:25:12] <SWPadnos> well, mathcad didn't exist at the time, I think
[03:25:40] <ds2> it was around since around 1990
[03:25:49] <SWPadnos> well I went to college before then :)
[03:25:54] <ds2> oh
[03:25:55] <SWPadnos> (and after)
[03:30:01] <gezar> whoot, another bad cdrom drive, I get another stepper :)
[04:27:05] <jmkasunich> why am I not surprised to find that the RPM nameplate on my shoptask is wrong
[04:27:18] <jmkasunich> it says 460 RPM for this belt setting
[04:27:26] <jmkasunich> spindle encoder says 580ish
[04:27:40] <jmkasunich> and my antique Hasler hand-tach agrees with the encoder
[04:28:33] <SWPadnos> is the motor turning at the right speed, or does it seem that the ratio is wrong?
[04:28:56] <jmkasunich> its an induction motor, can't be going too far off speed
[04:29:13] <jmkasunich> I wonder if china uses 50 Hz and they calculated the speeds accordingly?
[04:29:23] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[04:29:35] <jmkasunich> thats not too far off
[04:29:37] <jmkasunich> dumbasses
[04:29:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:29:47] <gezar> 50 yes, but not 100 rpm
[04:29:50] <Jymmm> 483.33333
[04:29:58] <jmkasunich> the plate says 460
[04:30:21] <SWPadnos> that would be 550 - still off by 5%
[04:30:22] <jmkasunich> the diff between 460 and 483 I can put downt to belts - its just v-belts, they're never exact
[04:30:25] <Jymmm> 60/50 * 460 = 552
[04:31:01] <jmkasunich> I'm running unloaded, so the motor is going to be turning faster than nameplate RPM
[04:31:28] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: You did say this was CHINA label, right? =)
[04:31:43] <SWPadnos> no, the label is made in the USA ;)
[04:31:47] <Jymmm> lol
[04:31:49] <gezar> there you go then
[04:31:55] <gezar> at least the chinese can count
[04:32:12] <SWPadnos> I wonder if we ever checked out shoptask
[04:32:15] <SWPadnos> our
[04:34:26] <Jymmm> Whenever I see "shoptask" I think "shopbot" - those all0in-one thingies
[04:34:38] <SWPadnos> the shoptask is a mill/lathe
[04:34:52] <Jymmm> the drill press, table saw thing
[04:34:53] <SWPadnos> but it has separate spindle and lathe motors
[04:34:56] <SWPadnos> right
[04:34:56] <jmkasunich> lathe/mill/drill they claim (three in one)
[04:35:03] <Jymmm> table saw too
[04:35:07] <Jymmm> i think
[04:35:11] <SWPadnos> no, the shoptask
[04:35:14] <jmkasunich> its actually a half-decent lathe, a rather weak mill, and a POS drillpress
[04:35:18] <SWPadnos> shopbot we don't care about
[04:35:30] <SWPadnos> compared to a drill press (tabletop), it's not bad
[04:35:35] <SWPadnos> though it does lack depth
[04:35:37] <jmkasunich> 3.3" of Z travel and no ability to move the table up/down = shitty drill press
[04:35:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:36:06] <Jymmm> no, no, what's that thing for woodworkers that has a saw too
[04:36:13] <jmkasunich> shopsmith I think
[04:36:20] <Jymmm> yeah, thats it!
[04:36:35] <jmkasunich> well I'm happy my encoder is mounted, wired, and working
[04:36:38] <Jymmm> http://www.shopsmith.com/
[04:36:40] <jmkasunich> threading fun tomorrow
[04:36:49] <Jymmm> That's what I alwasy think of where I hear that.
[04:36:53] <Jymmm> when
[04:36:55] <SWPadnos> www.shoptask.com
[04:37:19] <jmkasunich> the encoder mount: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/spindle-encoder-mount-1832.jpg
[04:38:03] <jmkasunich> my machine is much older than the ones on that website
[04:38:06] <jmkasunich> no head lift
[04:38:13] <jmkasunich> smaller table (only two t-slots)
[04:38:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:38:23] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I don't know the table on the one we got
[04:38:32] <SWPadnos> it was around 1994 or so though, I think
[04:38:37] <jmkasunich> doesn't have that brace thing on the right (an attempt to stiffen up the floppy millhead)
[04:38:55] <jmkasunich> I don't have the weird-ass combo tailstock/steadyrest
[04:39:02] <SWPadnos> we got it when they were still off-white instead of yellow :)
[04:39:12] <jmkasunich> I got mine in 1998, its yellow
[04:42:05] <tomp2> anybody used 80-20 or Bosch aluminum extrusions? opinions?
[04:42:11] <SWPadnos> this one may be the one we got: http://www.shoptask.com/17-20xmtc.jpg
[04:42:21] <SWPadnos> tomp2, yes, but not for a machine
[04:42:46] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: very little difference between that one and mine
[04:42:52] <SWPadnos> in fact, I currently have an open-frame LCD monitor mounted on 80/20 on my desk :)
[04:43:13] <SWPadnos> yep - the color seems to be the main difference
[04:43:17] <jmkasunich> mine has buttons to control the motors instead of knobs
[04:43:30] <SWPadnos> I think the older ones had 1HP motors, but I could be wrong about that
[04:43:48] <tomp2> mine has a barrel switch ( Furnas )
[11:02:49] <lerneaen_hydra> anyone here?
[11:03:23] <archivist> no they went to the pub
[11:03:58] <lerneaen_hydra> ah crud :( I can't recall what these are called in english; http://i5.ebayimg.com/01/i/00/f1/f5/68_1.JPG
[11:04:03] <lerneaen_hydra> any idea?
[11:09:44] <archivist> flange mount self-aligning bearing
[11:10:53] <archivist> title in catalogue is "two bolt flange unit"
[11:14:32] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, isn't there a general term for them?
[11:14:50] <lerneaen_hydra> self-aligning bearing maybe?
[11:15:12] <lerneaen_hydra> or would that include spherical bearings?
[11:15:14] <archivist> my first reply as it has a flang mount
[11:15:43] <lerneaen_hydra> ok, what about a general term that includes all manners of mounts?
[11:17:06] <archivist> self-aligning bearing does also include other types perhaps self-aligning bearing ball bearing
[11:17:25] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm ok, I see
[13:03:46] <skunkworks> logger_emc: bookmark
[13:03:46] <skunkworks> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-01-09.txt
[13:32:54] <skunkworks> hmm - wasn't there a discution - maybe on the emc-user list about h-bridges. someone had a huge deadband in their hbridge - petew had said if your not shorting the motor windings out during the off cycle - you get some odd effects..
[13:37:49] <skunkworks> I think it was sebastian and the thread started on 10/8/07
[13:38:07] <skunkworks> At 0% duty cycle the motor is stopped, and at 100% it runs fast,
[13:38:11] <lerneaen_hydra> deadband? you mean temporal space between activating the different parts?
[13:38:24] <skunkworks> Duty cycles from 0 to about 55% give me increasing whining from the
[13:38:46] <skunkworks> motor but no movement at all. 55 to 100% gives increasing motor speed
[13:41:13] <skunkworks> where is the link to the emc-users history?
[13:41:40] <lerneaen_hydra> the mailing list?
[13:44:26] <skunkworks> yes
[13:44:53] <gezar> skunkworks: you putting enough volts to the motor?
[13:46:23] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, IIRC there was a link on the linuxcnc.org page near the link to the IRC archives
[13:46:52] <jepler> yep there are links to archives here: http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/4/8/lang,en/
[13:47:25] <skunkworks> thanks.
[13:47:36] <skunkworks> this is what I was trying to get across.. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=390997#post390997
[13:47:58] <skunkworks> (atleast that is a little of what I got from the discussion last night)
[13:49:34] <skunkworks> my bridge seemed very linear.
[13:49:34] <archivist> basic friction in the motor?
[13:53:16] <skunkworks> I would guess his h-bridge is setup using 'fast decay mode'
[14:50:18] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[14:51:11] <JymmmEMC> Hey, new pc for EMC http://newspaperads.mercurynews.com/ROP/ads.aspx?advid=32664&adid=5606843&subid=19392257&type=
[14:51:55] <JymmmEMC> http://store.shopfujitsu.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=U810
[14:52:19] <SWPadnos> http://laptop.org/en/laptop/hardware/specs.shtml
[14:52:53] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: no touch screen
[14:53:06] <SWPadnos> heh - and the keys are so small, I can't really type on it
[14:53:23] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: which the fuji or kid?
[14:53:29] <SWPadnos> the kid one
[14:53:45] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: you should try the fuji.... it's even worse.
[14:53:49] <SWPadnos> oh - I didn't realize those pads next to the touchpad are stylus areas
[14:54:28] <SWPadnos> the OLPC is $200 ($400 if you donate one to a kid somewhere)
[14:54:33] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Someone brought one in last night and let me play with it...
[14:54:38] <SWPadnos> so you can get 2 and donate 2 for the price of the Fuji
[14:54:40] <JymmmEMC> the fuji
[14:55:12] <SWPadnos> hmmm. wsvga - is that 1280x768?
[14:55:41] <JymmmEMC> 1024x600
[14:55:43] <SWPadnos> the Fijitsu needs a touch screen because it has no trackpad
[14:55:46] <SWPadnos> ewww
[14:55:49] <JymmmEMC> it is touch
[14:56:02] <JymmmEMC> it does have a track pad
[14:56:09] <SWPadnos> doesn't look it
[14:56:22] <JymmmEMC> it does and is sensative as hell too
[14:56:33] <JymmmEMC> top right corner
[14:56:57] <SWPadnos> ooooh - and a fingerprint scanner too
[14:57:13] <SWPadnos> I don't see the trackpad, but oh well
[14:57:16] <JymmmEMC> http://www.computers.us.fujitsu.com/www/products_notebooks.shtml?products/notebooks/photo_gal/gal_u810#
[14:57:29] <JymmmEMC> the blck sq
[14:57:39] <SWPadnos> the whole thing is a black square ;)
[14:57:47] <JymmmEMC> next to the silver buttons
[14:58:03] <JymmmEMC> very top of pic
[14:58:52] <SWPadnos> ah - that's a joystick/J-key kind of thing
[14:58:57] <JymmmEMC> yeah
[14:59:11] <SWPadnos> not a trackpad (the larger rectangle you move your finger around on)
[14:59:19] <JymmmEMC> i hate those
[14:59:27] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:59:31] <SWPadnos> I hate the j-sticks
[14:59:43] <SWPadnos> or j-keys or whatever IBM calls them
[14:59:52] <JymmmEMC> I love em, works great
[14:59:59] <JymmmEMC> eraser mice
[15:00:03] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:01:34] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Well, tonight's (basically) my last night
[15:01:43] <SWPadnos> bummer
[15:01:45] <JymmmEMC> Couldn't get ahold of my boss yesterday
[15:01:45] <SWPadnos> or cool
[15:01:52] <JymmmEMC> a lil of both
[15:01:56] <SWPadnos> when do you start?
[15:02:08] <JymmmEMC> sent him an email, no reply yet.
[15:02:21] <SWPadnos> see - if you'd do this next week, you could have a few extra days off while I'm there ...
[15:02:23] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I'm taking two weeks off for vacation
[15:02:25] <SWPadnos> :)
[15:02:28] <SWPadnos> oh, cool!
[15:02:43] <SWPadnos> gotta readjust to the daytime schedule too, I imagine
[15:03:16] <JymmmEMC> a lil bit, but I think time off between jobs will be a good thing, haven't had any for 15 months
[15:03:49] <SWPadnos> ouch
[15:04:28] <JymmmEMC> worked turkey xmas and new years last year, xmas and new years this year
[15:06:36] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[15:06:46] <SWPadnos> did you ever sign up for MacWorld?
[15:07:53] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: url and code?
[15:08:02] <SWPadnos> guh - hold on a sec
[15:08:26] <SWPadnos> http://www.macworldexpo.com/registration
[15:08:50] <SWPadnos> code E-SFVA
[15:08:54] <SWPadnos> may still work
[15:09:12] <SWPadnos> did you watch the drobo video?
[15:09:33] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: yeah, was cool, but I'd really like a NAS solution
[15:09:38] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:09:50] <alex_joni> holy sh*t
[15:09:55] <alex_joni> http://www.acvt.com.au/research/videotrace/
[15:09:55] <SWPadnos> I think they did a great job with the automatic management though
[15:10:23] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Yeah, but says no RAID, so not sure what they're doing
[15:10:31] <SWPadnos> ?
[15:10:35] <SWPadnos> it is RAID internally
[15:10:45] <SWPadnos> "no RAID hassles" ...
[15:10:50] <JymmmEMC> ah
[15:11:38] <lerneaen_hydra> alex_joni; yeah, quite nice :)
[15:14:53] <SWPadnos> that's impressive
[15:15:11] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: not valid
[15:15:23] <SWPadnos> bummer
[15:15:53] <SWPadnos> here's the one DR sent me: 08-G-PC73
[15:16:04] <JymmmEMC> 08-G-PC260 worked (googled)
[15:16:10] <SWPadnos> cool
[15:16:31] <JymmmEMC> wait, $10 wtf
[15:16:43] <JymmmEMC> Exhibits Only $10
[15:16:49] <SWPadnos> I think it's probably easiest to take CalTrain to SF - do you agree?
[15:16:58] <SWPadnos> try my code isntead
[15:16:59] <SWPadnos> instead
[15:17:11] <SWPadnos> it's getting close to the show though, everything may be $10 now
[15:17:26] <JymmmEMC> your code is $45
[15:19:43] <SWPadnos> hmmm. it was free for me
[15:38:55] <anonimasu> hm
[16:17:55] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/mainelectricalbox.JPG
[16:18:13] <skunkworks> notice the yellow aligator jumper near the bottom of the box ;)
[16:18:56] <skunkworks> (I think that was to override the hydraulic level sensor.. (we didn't need 200 gallons of oil in the tank anymore when we got rid of the hydraulic spindle)
[16:19:13] <skunkworks> *hydraulic oil level
[16:28:04] <fenn> i thought #emc was a little too quiet..
[16:29:38] <jepler> hi fenn
[16:42:35] <skunkworks> Hi fenn
[16:42:59] <fenn> * fenn procrastinates disassembling the electronics bench
[16:43:42] <archivist> thats drastic
[16:44:06] <fenn> its the most modular "chunk" of my activities
[16:44:26] <fenn> so its the first to get put on the wagon
[16:44:36] <fenn> i'm moving to a new residence slowly
[16:44:56] <archivist> ah ok
[16:45:07] <skunkworks> sounds exciting.
[16:45:19] <archivist> more space to play?
[16:45:24] <skunkworks> more space? or on your own?
[16:45:26] <fenn> in my old age i've come to realize that i hate change..
[16:45:31] <skunkworks> heh
[16:51:48] <skunkworks> fenn: are you going to try and make it to the cnc workshop this year?
[16:52:08] <BigJohnT> If I have two different locations on my plasma cutter for tools what is the best way to handle this? For example if I have the plasma in one location and a spotting punch next to it...
[16:52:32] <SWPadnos> BigJohnT, I don't know that there is a good way to deal with that
[16:52:46] <SWPadnos> you might be able to use some offset coordinate system
[16:53:01] <BigJohnT> like g55 for one and g56 for the other?
[16:53:08] <SWPadnos> something like that, yes
[16:53:22] <BigJohnT> is it possible to use the tool table for that?
[16:53:25] <SWPadnos> you can't use tool comp because that's always tangent to the path
[16:53:25] <fenn> skunkworks: yeah i think so
[16:53:31] <SWPadnos> no, you can't
[16:53:37] <BigJohnT> ok, thanks
[16:53:58] <SWPadnos> unless you hack the lathe tool shape stuff to work for "normal" milling
[16:54:00] <SWPadnos> :)
[16:54:04] <skunkworks> fenn: cool :)
[16:54:29] <BigJohnT> sounds like fun
[16:54:54] <cradek> BigJohnT: if you have a lathe format tool table, you can have tool "length" offsets in X and Z both. If your two tools are different in X (but same Y coordinate), this will work great
[16:55:27] <BigJohnT> yes they would be on the same Y plane
[16:55:41] <cradek> then it'll work fine
[16:55:46] <BigJohnT> cool
[16:55:52] <cradek> just use G43 like usual
[16:56:10] <SWPadnos> "The way to learn, apparently, is to assert something with authority and then wait for someone to correct you." :)
[16:56:13] <cradek> make your "lathe" tools orientation 0 or 9, which is a circle with the controlled point in the center
[16:57:17] <fenn> SWPadnos: i believe that's known as the scientific method
[16:58:45] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:59:06] <SWPadnos> quoted from a post to a Yahoo group that I happened to receive today
[16:59:48] <SWPadnos> though I was 17% correct. all you have to do is use (not hack) a lathe-type tool table :)
[17:00:13] <BigJohnT> ok
[17:02:51] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html//gcode_main.html#r1_4_2
[17:03:05] <cradek> make your angles zero and orientation 9
[17:03:49] <BigJohnT> crradek: thanks for the link I was looking for it but couln't find it...
[17:03:52] <BigJohnT> ok
[17:06:51] <BigJohnT> so if one tool is +1X on the Y plane from the other I put a 1 in the Z offset?
[17:08:31] <cradek> no Z offset is still height/length
[17:08:59] <BigJohnT> ok the diagram kinda had me confused
[17:09:25] <cradek> the diagram probably makes little sense unless you're looking at a lathe
[17:10:12] <BigJohnT> Looking at my lathe and the diagram now makes sense if I stood my lathe on its head
[17:10:23] <cradek> tool on top?
[17:10:27] <BigJohnT> yep
[17:10:35] <fenn> Z is always parallel to the spindle
[17:10:51] <cradek> yeah that's why it says +X on the diagram - lathes can't agree where the tool goes :-)
[17:11:07] <BigJohnT> got it thanks
[17:15:45] <micges> hello
[17:19:13] <micges> I just wanna say that we just finished building sixth machine based on EMC :)
[17:19:24] <micges> It works :)
[17:19:35] <BigJohnT> Sweet!
[17:21:15] <micges> EMC is REALLY good piece of software !!
[17:21:32] <micges> hard to obtain but great
[17:21:46] <micges> understand*
[17:23:12] <BigJohnT> kinda confusing to configure it if your not box standard but easy once someone shows you how...
[17:23:40] <skunkworks> micges: pictures?
[17:23:41] <micges> yes
[17:24:46] <micges> tomorrow we clean everything and then I get pictures and movies :)
[17:25:05] <micges> just must remember :P
[17:25:24] <archivist> we dont mind the mess, want pictures
[17:26:09] <SWPadnos> if it's too clean nobody will believe it's real
[17:26:16] <micges> tommorow
[17:26:44] <BigJohnT> micges: what kind of machine is it?
[17:26:54] <micges> I am already after work
[17:27:16] <micges> in Poland it is 19:00 :)
[17:27:40] <micges> table mill machine
[17:27:42] <BigJohnT> lunch time here, fried duck and chicken wings
[17:27:48] <BigJohnT> cool
[17:28:11] <micges> enjoy meal :)
[17:28:25] <BigJohnT> you should add the pictures to emc wiki site...
[17:28:48] <BigJohnT> thanks a nice ale will go good with it...
[17:29:22] <micges> I must first know how :)
[17:30:11] <BigJohnT> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BasicSteps
[17:30:31] <micges> machine table is 1125x1650
[17:30:31] <BigJohnT> follow the above page
[17:30:43] <micges> ok thanks :)
[17:31:19] <BigJohnT> *BigJohnT went to get calculator from mill
[17:31:49] <BigJohnT> 44" x 65" pretty big
[17:32:16] <micges> we builded also 1500x2500 :)
[17:32:39] <BigJohnT> I can't wait to see the pictures...
[17:33:49] <micges> present machine has analog correction of tool deep in material
[17:34:19] <micges> tool height measuring and correction
[17:34:57] <BigJohnT> Sweet!
[17:39:28] <micges> table has vacuum hold of material
[17:39:52] <micges> to what section can I add description of this machine ?
[17:41:18] <micges> and vacuum clean of shaving chips
[17:41:41] <micges> I dont know if I proper translated :P
[17:42:48] <micges> it is worth showing you all :)
[17:43:20] <SWPadnos> you can add a wiki page, and link to it from the page that lists people's machines
[17:43:42] <SWPadnos> you can also link to an external site, so if you make your own site, just add the link to the wiki
[17:43:53] <micges> thanks
[17:45:21] <micges> my simple question: what is reasolution of measuring with G38.2 ?
[17:46:08] <SWPadnos> it's the resolution of your feedback
[17:46:24] <SWPadnos> except that there may be uncertainty due to backlash and also the feed
[17:46:26] <micges> feedback ?
[17:46:39] <SWPadnos> (or your step resolution if you use steppers
[17:46:50] <micges> speed of reaction ?
[17:47:01] <micges> no we have servos
[17:47:14] <SWPadnos> speed affects accuracy, but not resolution
[17:47:41] <SWPadnos> feedback - the encoder resolution
[17:48:24] <micges> sorry I mean accuracy :P
[17:48:32] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:49:29] <SWPadnos> the accuracy will depend on (a) the accuracy of your feedback, (b) any backlash (related to feedback accuracy), (c) the servo thread period and (d) the speed you do the probing move
[17:49:59] <SWPadnos> a and b are basically the uncertainty in the feedback mechanism - backlash and encoder errors will make the numbers wrong
[17:50:19] <SWPadnos> c and d are the response of EMC to the probe input
[17:51:05] <SWPadnos> if you have a 1ms servo period, and you're moving 600mm/min, then the machine can move up to 0.01 mm during a servo period
[17:51:07] <micges> mhm
[17:51:26] <skunkworks> I actaully did a microswitch tool touch off with the spindle running.. but the carbide mill was dull enough and the micro switch pushed so easy that it didn't effect anything.
[17:51:31] <SWPadnos> if you move 60mm/min, then the uncertainty due to timing is 0.001mm
[17:52:22] <micges> ok I will calculate this
[17:52:54] <SWPadnos> if you increase the servo rate or decrease the feed rate, those inaccuracies will be reduced
[17:53:22] <SWPadnos> but the accuracy will never be better than the resolution of your encoder feedback
[17:55:41] <micges> I want accuracy of 0.01 mm
[17:56:01] <micges> now I have 0.02
[17:56:15] <SWPadnos> what is your encoder resolution?
[17:56:57] <micges> Im not sure but about 5000/mm
[17:57:12] <SWPadnos> ok, that's more than enough :)
[17:57:32] <skunkworks> how repeatable is your tool lenght sensor?
[17:57:36] <skunkworks> length
[17:57:45] <micges> speed 600mm/min
[17:58:36] <SWPadnos> 600mm/min = 10mm/sec, or 0.01mm/millisecond
[17:58:54] <SWPadnos> so that's just barely good enough for the accuracy you want
[17:59:13] <SWPadnos> it would probably be better to usea lower feed rate, like 300mm/min
[18:00:11] <SWPadnos> you can also use a relatively fast probing move to approach the part, then use a slow probe move when retracting, and only log the retract move
[18:00:23] <SWPadnos> the probe cycle would be reasonably fast, but more accurate
[18:00:39] <SWPadnos> (assuming your probe is just as accurate breaking contact as it is making contact)
[18:00:50] <fenn> how does one do that with emc?
[18:01:03] <SWPadnos> use the newer G38.[12] probe codes
[18:01:55] <SWPadnos> a simple subroutine for depth probing would be fast probe down, slow probe up and log (if you can choose to log only certain probed points), rapid up to safety height
[18:02:33] <fenn> "The tool in the spindle must be a probe." what's this supposed to mean?
[18:02:39] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:02:49] <SWPadnos> it means you'll break stuff if it isn't ??
[18:03:48] <micges> I first lower speed
[18:05:31] <micges> do you know on what things in EMC SEVO_PERIOD has meaning ?
[18:06:59] <micges> function linked is named motion-controller
[18:07:46] <SWPadnos> the motion controller and usually PID (and classic ladder) runs in the servo thread
[18:08:41] <micges> that mean that every pin in module MOTION has delay of 1ms ?
[18:08:54] <SWPadnos> not quite
[18:09:22] <SWPadnos> when you're dealing with the "real world", such as a probe input, the input may change at any time during that 1ms period
[18:09:40] <SWPadnos> but the motion controller will only "see" it the next time it runs
[18:10:01] <SWPadnos> that delay can be anywhere from "almost zero" to "a little less than the servo period"
[18:10:17] <SWPadnos> (or even longer, depending on your max RT latency)
[18:10:27] <micges> I understand
[18:10:47] <micges> I must write this down to check tommorow :)
[18:11:06] <SWPadnos> :)
[18:13:07] <micges> ok writed (pictures, check measuring :)
[18:27:33] <micges> anther question
[18:27:48] <micges> I have laser
[18:29:01] <micges> and throttle response to M04/M05 command vary from 0.01 to 0.2 seconds
[18:29:28] <micges> any suggeesttions ?
[18:30:09] <micges> changing CYCLE_TIME in IO section has no effect
[18:39:28] <SWPadnos> throttle response?
[18:40:21] <micges> time between M04 and start burning
[18:42:52] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I'd expect M3/M4 to be in RT code, but I'm not sure
[18:42:59] <SWPadnos> someone else may have to answer this one
[18:43:50] <micges> we measured this many times and it is about 0.1 sec
[19:00:29] <BigJohnT> micges: do you wait for a response from the laser before starting a move?
[19:04:36] <micges> yes
[19:05:13] <micges> delays of 0.1 before and after a move
[19:06:07] <cradek> spindle on/off is not controlled in realtime
[19:06:33] <micges> I think it is IO module
[19:06:57] <BigJohnT> cradek: is there something else to use for laser/plasma to control the arc on?
[19:07:22] <cradek> does the machine control Z or is it only XY?
[19:07:38] <micges> XY only
[19:07:54] <cradek> some people have used a comparator on Z (<0 is on, >0 is off) for some digital control like a pen plotter
[19:08:47] <micges> interesting
[19:09:12] <cradek> even the digital outputs with M64 are not fully in realtime
[19:09:34] <cradek> if you need exact realtime response I think all you have to work with is motion
[19:10:18] <micges> M64 has also SERVO_PERIOD delay ?
[19:10:28] <micges> which is about 1ms ?
[19:10:37] <cradek> not realtime so the delay is not predictable
[19:10:43] <cradek> only motion is realtime
[19:12:03] <BigJohnT> does it make a difference in the cut quality if the laser is on 0.1 sec before starting motion?
[19:12:42] <micges> Its possible to IO also be realtime somehow ?
[19:13:04] <micges> Its make difference
[19:13:25] <micges> 600 W source of beam
[19:14:00] <micges> and in future more power
[19:15:01] <BigJohnT> ok didn't know I building a plasma cutter and they seem to be more forgiving
[19:16:04] <micges> laser to cut die cuts
[19:17:31] <micges> rows burned must be very precise
[19:25:38] <cradek> ") ;
[19:39:05] <micges> cradek: have some time to talk about AXIS ?
[19:48:07] <cradek> I cannot commit to any particular length of time, but there's no reason to require that in order to talk about something
[19:49:35] <micges> ok :)
[19:50:05] <micges> what was page to share images ?
[19:50:12] <cradek> imagebin.org
[19:52:19] <fenn> there's motion synched digital output available, (m66) but it has not been tested very thoroughly
[19:52:39] <cradek> fenn: it's not realtime
[19:52:48] <fenn> (i thought io was realtime ever since all the separate io modules went away)
[19:53:08] <fenn> er......
[19:53:16] <fenn> wtf does "motion synched" mean then
[19:53:25] <bill2or3> "a good dancer"
[19:53:40] <cradek> the io changes at the right time between the motions
[19:54:08] <fenn> instead of what?
[19:54:18] <fenn> changing whenever the interpreter happens to feel like it?
[19:54:24] <skunkworks> after motion starts or before it ends..
[19:54:34] <cradek> well that was one "feature" we originally had, yes
[19:55:04] <cradek> if you think the docs are bad, please fix
[19:56:37] <micges> cradek: you also wroted python modules used by AXIS ?? emc, gcode, rs274, hershey...
[19:57:04] <cradek> yes I probably wrote some of all those
[19:57:34] <cradek> my name is probably in most of the files I've helped write
[19:58:18] <skunkworks> hershey?
[19:58:35] <cradek> the hershey fonts are some very old public domain vector fonts
[19:58:47] <cradek> AXIS uses them to draw the dimensions and XYZ labels
[20:00:07] <skunkworks> ah
[20:00:33] <cradek> they were also used in old autocad, hpgl (hp) plotters, etc
[20:01:38] <micges> cradek: http://imagebin.org/12900
[20:03:01] <skunkworks> wow - is that for your laser? creating a dieboard?
[20:03:40] <skunkworks> looks like your making a cardbaord box.
[20:03:46] <skunkworks> of some kind
[20:04:09] <micges> this is an AXIS from MILL and gcode form laser
[20:04:38] <micges> my programs are exchangable between machines :)
[20:06:24] <micges> when I was writing this I have thousands of problems
[20:15:01] <micges> for first: any direction to improve/add functionality to AXIS ?
[20:15:37] <cradek> all submitted patches will be thoughtfully considered
[20:16:14] <cradek> I think we don't have any immediate big plans if that's what you are asking
[20:17:18] <cradek> it would be very nice if we had a pl translation, but we don't, that's a place you could definitely help
[20:17:33] <cradek> looks like you have done some or all of the work already
[20:17:56] <micges> almost all are translated
[20:18:53] <micges> where to find how to translate ?
[20:19:21] <micges> that you can add to officila
[20:20:38] <cradek> jepler: can you answer that?
[20:21:12] <skunkworks> http://axis.unpythonic.net/translations ?
[20:21:33] <jepler> emc2/src/po/README
[20:22:27] <micges> thanks
[20:23:37] <jepler> gettext and ".po files" are a standard way of translating applications on linux; you should find lots of information about it (including GUI programs you can use to help you) on the internet or with google.
[20:24:46] <micges> any clearyfing/cleanup pathes are also appreciated ?
[20:24:46] <micges> clearyfing/cleanup of axis.py code
[20:26:44] <micges> translation seems to be quite easy I hope
[20:37:24] <stustev> hello
[20:37:48] <SWPadnos> hi
[20:38:21] <skunkworks> did you get your program compiled
[20:39:01] <stustev> not yet. I am in the middle of putting the GPL2 license on it.
[20:40:17] <skunkworks> cool ;)
[20:40:26] <SWPadnos> bbl
[20:52:55] <cradek> hi stuart!
[20:53:08] <stustev> good afternoon
[20:53:31] <stustev> I connected from the shop today. we will see how this works.
[20:53:51] <cradek> uh-oh we'll never be rid of you now
[20:54:09] <stustev> I don't know. It's possible
[20:54:25] <stustev> I will be in and out.
[20:55:54] <stustev> cradek: did you see the gpl2 note in the files?
[20:56:08] <cradek> yes in the new ones you sent me
[20:56:13] <cradek> looks perfect
[20:56:32] <stustev> I will put them on www.mpm1.com:8080
[20:56:59] <stustev> if anyone has downloaded them they can downloaded them again if they want.
[20:57:20] <cradek> great
[20:58:43] <stustev> they are there
[20:59:17] <stustev> maybe someone will be able to use them
[20:59:19] <cradek> you have a lot of nice pictures there too
[20:59:57] <cradek> how is the G&L by now?
[21:00:06] <stustev> Randy M. was here until 9:00 PM last night. He is here today. He says we will be able to turn the G&L on today.
[21:00:20] <stustev> If that is the case I will be installing stuff tomorrow.
[21:00:26] <cradek> slick!
[21:00:32] <stustev> I can hardly wait
[21:01:14] <cradek> man that will be scary to get tuned
[21:01:28] <stustev> It has scales.
[21:01:37] <cradek> but motor encoders too right?
[21:01:43] <stustev> yes
[21:02:03] <cradek> do you have both encoders and scales coming into hal?
[21:02:13] <stustev> not yet
[21:02:40] <cradek> it would be nice to try jmk's recommendation of using the scales only for the "I" term
[21:03:03] <cradek> that way it will always settle to the right position, but not have the instability that you get when you use only scales
[21:03:05] <stustev> we could try that
[21:03:48] <cradek> I think it would only take a change in the HAL PID component
[21:04:10] <cradek> the other option is just use the scales to map the screws
[21:04:32] <stustev> when we get it going we will try to use both.
[21:04:55] <stustev> what a waste to use the scales for only error mapping.
[21:05:14] <cradek> is it hard to get 8 encoder inputs with ppmc?
[21:05:44] <stustev> no - you only need two encoder cards
[21:06:05] <cradek> ah ok
[21:06:40] <cradek> seems like a lot of people have asked about scales recently. it would be nice for us to have good support for dual feedback
[21:06:56] <stustev> there has been a lot of discussion lately
[21:07:06] <stustev> most of negative
[21:07:18] <stustev> it seems as if it is not as nice as it sounds
[21:07:39] <cradek> I think people try to use only scales, and that works badly
[21:08:36] <stustev> our viper has two encoders per axis. almost like scales. one encoder on each motor for motor control
[21:08:37] <skunkworks> it works fine if the system has 0 backlash..
[21:08:44] <skunkworks> :)
[21:08:55] <stustev> and one encoder on each axis for position
[21:08:58] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek; (my apologies if you've already said this), but what are the bad effects of using scales? backlash that causes jittery motor movement?
[21:09:33] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: yes I understand that any slack anywhere in the system will make it untunable
[21:09:56] <cradek> or at best, the performance will be bad because it has to be tuned "loose"
[21:10:00] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, that bad?
[21:10:21] <cradek> but I think jmk's idea is very promising and I'd like to see it tried
[21:10:46] <skunkworks> was that on the list - or on here?
[21:10:48] <cradek> even better would be to have (analog) tach input to use for the "D" term
[21:10:52] <cradek> skunkworks: on the list I think
[21:10:58] <stustev> Jon E. made the comment about the resolution of scales not being fine enough for good tuning. I think he is correct.
[21:11:34] <cradek> yes but they could be used to drive the axis to position (the I term) - they have plenty of resolution for that
[21:11:54] <stustev> analog for D sounds interesting
[21:12:10] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek; hmm that sounds smart
[21:12:34] <lerneaen_hydra> you'll get rid of most of the leadscrew/gearbox/other stuff irregularity
[21:12:42] <stustev> BUT - you can't get much better than EMC2 will tune now.
[21:13:23] <stustev> when does the law of diminishing returns overshadow everything?
[21:14:15] <cradek> if you try to use the existing pid with scales for feedback, I think it wouldn't work very well
[21:15:01] <stustev> from the discussion I have seen I would agree but with encoders the tuning is very good and smooth
[21:15:17] <stustev> how much precision do you need?
[21:15:50] <stustev> not many projects need less than .001
[21:15:58] <stustev> inch
[21:16:03] <skunkworks> these are the scales I want to get working :) http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/accupins.JPG
[21:16:47] <cradek> stustev: what do you think is the accuracy of the screws on the G&L without using the scales or screw comp?
[21:17:09] <cradek> seems like it could be a lot worse than within .001 everywhere
[21:17:36] <cradek> skunkworks: don't be silly. that's a hairbrush.
[21:17:45] <skunkworks> ;)
[21:18:51] <stustev> the cincinnatis we set up had approx .003 inaccuracy in 120 inches. Each one was short.
[21:19:38] <stustev> I don't know about the G&L. It has always had scales.
[21:19:59] <stustev> my guess is the ball screws would be similar to the cinci's
[21:20:43] <cradek> you will be able to measure it directly by plotting both encoder positions. that will be very interesting I think.
[21:22:24] <stustev> I questioned some old machine rebuilders about the pitch being short. They said the old controls only had positive compensation. therefore all screw were ground with the pitch a few tenths short every inch.
[21:22:43] <skunkworks> interesting.
[21:22:51] <cradek> huh
[21:24:41] <stustev> If the control could only add error compensation (for whatever reason) then the screws would have to be sure to not have the pitch long or the control couldn't compensate for the error. That was what was explained to me.
[21:25:05] <skunkworks> it makes sense in a scary sort of way..
[21:25:54] <stustev> with the control capability today it seems crazy but then they were dealing with hardware issues not just software
[21:27:26] <cradek> if you'd heat your shop a little more maybe all the screws would be the right length
[21:27:33] <skunkworks> heh
[21:27:51] <stustev> have a heater for each machine
[21:29:16] <JymmmEMC> lol @ cradek
[21:33:15] <archivist> hmm homebrew laser intereferometry
[21:34:13] <cradek> that's nice, hal pid has a maxoutput setting, that sounds useful for initial setup of big machines
[21:38:59] <JymmmEMC> Anyone want to hear my latest score?
[21:39:27] <archivist> * archivist just scored a rotary table
[21:39:36] <JymmmEMC> Qty 2: http://minicom.com/kvm_smartipaccess.htm
[21:40:15] <bill2or3> neat.
[21:48:22] <lewin1> lewin1 is now known as lewing
[21:51:22] <Gamma-X> hey everyone whats up
[21:51:23] <SWPadnos> man. it is not easy to find a good rolling travel case for a 17" widescreen laptop
[21:57:25] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Check out my latest score, qty 2: http://www.kvm-switches-online.com/0su51068.html
[21:57:50] <stustev> bbl
[21:57:52] <SWPadnos> saw that - looks cool (though I didn't read the whole product description)
[21:59:11] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Well, it's just a IP-KVM, wanted one for years, just couldn't justify it and now I got two for the cost of getting them RMA'ed
[21:59:18] <JymmmEMC> $8 shipping =)
[21:59:51] <Gamma-X> whats the definition of climb cutting?
[22:00:13] <JymmmEMC> upcut?
[22:00:16] <SWPadnos> it's when the cutter rolls along the cut surface like a tire on the road
[22:00:16] <cradek> Gamma-X: the rotation of the cutter causes it to pull on the work
[22:00:44] <Gamma-X> ok
[22:00:59] <SWPadnos> vs. the moonwalking (moon-rolling?) way - conventional milling :)
[22:01:11] <gezar> where each cutting portion of the tool, walks down the path, taking a step forward kicking the chip behind it, aka unconventional milling, the oppsite is where the cutter kicks the chip in front of it as it moves forward
[22:01:12] <Gamma-X> olk
[22:01:24] <gezar> and howdy yall, i just made it home
[22:01:36] <cradek> counterclockwise on an inside cut, or clockwise on an outside cut is climb milling
[22:02:10] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, ok - that is a cool device
[22:02:31] <SWPadnos> (assuming right-handed cutters)
[22:03:09] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Yeah it is.... you can now have headless units in your home and access them anywhere
[22:03:10] <archivist> I was climb milling today with backlash and got away with it!
[22:03:31] <gezar> it sure can jerk a machine around thats for sure
[22:03:39] <archivist> spindle has very low torque and stalls
[22:03:50] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: or, in a DC, you can do complete OS installs, even update the BIOS remotely.
[22:03:56] <gezar> I use it a lot when using a slotting cutter
[22:04:16] <archivist> exactly what I was doing gezar
[22:04:24] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, sure - I assume you just have to tell it the key-combo to switch the KVM, and you'r egolden
[22:04:30] <gezar> but were talking billions of teeth though
[22:05:36] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: It's a single machine IPKVM, just remote console if you want to think about it that way.
[22:06:00] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: there are multiple machine ipkvm's, but come with a comma in the price
[22:06:18] <SWPadnos> sure - but to change a real KVM attached to it, you need to be able to send the right magic key sequence (for many KVMs anyway)
[22:06:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:06:23] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: or you hook a regular kvm multiple port to a ipkvm
[22:06:36] <SWPadnos> that's the setup they have on the page you linked
[22:06:38] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: yep
[22:06:51] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: ah, I only searched for the model#
[22:06:59] <SWPadnos> option 1 on the diagram
[22:07:08] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: there's a diagram?
[22:07:10] <JymmmEMC> ;)
[22:07:33] <SWPadnos> speaking of which, have you madea diagram of what's supposed to go in your control box?
[22:07:37] <SWPadnos> :)
[22:07:46] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: No, still trying to get ahold of my boss.
[22:07:53] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:08:48] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Then have my other boss in the other window chatting with what I want for tyos
[22:08:53] <JymmmEMC> toys
[22:09:01] <SWPadnos> oh - can I add some? :)
[22:09:45] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I think I'm pushing my luck as it is... somewhere around $4k
[22:09:52] <SWPadnos> wimpy toys
[22:10:03] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I'm trying to be gentle
[22:10:41] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: not sure on a 15 or 17" mb pro
[22:10:54] <SWPadnos> http://gizmodo.com/341413/alienware-curved-monitor-looks-like-its-from-another-planet
[22:10:59] <JymmmEMC> 15 would be easier to carry around, but I like the larger display
[22:11:20] <SWPadnos> me too, just make sure you get a good carrying case for it
[22:11:40] <SWPadnos> the one I have is kinda crappy, and I'm looking for a good replacement right now
[22:11:51] <SWPadnos> does it have to be a mac?
[22:12:21] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Well I need one of each.... Just thought the mac laptop would be better than a Dell.
[22:12:31] <SWPadnos> ewww to either
[22:12:44] <SWPadnos> you'll need Linux, I assume
[22:13:03] <SWPadnos> man, those are relatively expensive
[22:13:47] <JymmmEMC> the mbpor?
[22:13:51] <JymmmEMC> mbpro?
[22:14:11] <SWPadnos> yes
[22:14:25] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: well, it' be MBPRO + vmware + XP/vista, then a desktop box
[22:14:50] <SWPadnos> ok, and you need the macbook because OSX doesn't run on a non-mac?
[22:15:04] <JymmmEMC> right, but it could be a mac desktop
[22:15:14] <JymmmEMC> and a dell laptop, my choice.
[22:15:23] <SWPadnos> does it have to be a Dell?
[22:15:29] <JymmmEMC> yeah....
[22:15:36] <SWPadnos> bummer. that's pretty stupid
[22:15:47] <JymmmEMC> well, I could get a ThinkPad I think
[22:16:15] <JymmmEMC> I dont mind the mbpro too much... gives me more time to play.
[22:16:26] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:16:53] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I got PC's at home, just not a Mac (running)
[22:17:31] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Having the MBPro will force me to learn the details
[22:17:58] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: how do you like your 17" ?
[22:17:58] <SWPadnos> it's not as bad as I thought - the mac is only $500 more than a similarly configured PC
[22:18:01] <SWPadnos> (like the one I have)
[22:18:08] <SWPadnos> I like it quite a bit
[22:18:18] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: for carrying around and such
[22:18:36] <SWPadnos> I have 3 pet peeves with it: 1) home, end, pgup, pgdown are FN+cursor keys
[22:18:41] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: worth the extra 2" for the inconvience it adds
[22:18:42] <SWPadnos> it's heavy, like my old one ;)
[22:18:56] <SWPadnos> yes - I got the high res screen, it's 1920x1200 instead of 1680x1050
[22:19:44] <JymmmEMC> http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html
[22:19:48] <SWPadnos> peeve 2: the mouse buttons are a little weird - you have to press them kind of near the center or they don't work well
[22:19:58] <SWPadnos> sure, I'm looking at the apple store right now
[22:20:02] <JymmmEMC> the 17" is a 1.5lb heavier
[22:20:17] <JymmmEMC> 6.8lbs
[22:20:25] <JymmmEMC> vs 5.4lbs
[22:20:29] <SWPadnos> mine is heavier than that
[22:20:49] <SWPadnos> hmmm - you can get mie with a 2x blu-ray drive for about the same price as the MBP
[22:20:58] <JymmmEMC> lol
[22:21:13] <JymmmEMC> br is dead jim
[22:21:33] <SWPadnos> heh - I think the recent stories have been the other way around - that HD-DVD is dead
[22:21:43] <JymmmEMC> they both are
[22:21:46] <JymmmEMC> NEXT
[22:22:04] <SWPadnos> ok, the video on mine is better - 8800M vs. 8600M
[22:23:24] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I never do anything, just like large enough res for two-page up on screen
[22:23:38] <SWPadnos> actually, for you I'd say the 15" is enough. you have computers at home, and you'll have one at work, so the amount of time you'll have to spend looking at the laptop should be minimial
[22:23:50] <SWPadnos> oh, in that case the 17" is better :)
[22:23:57] <SWPadnos> and 1920x1200, so you can actually read the text
[22:24:56] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I'll get a 24" LCD at work, connected to the desktop PC, then use http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/
[22:25:07] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: That's what I'm thinking anyway
[22:25:08] <SWPadnos> sure
[22:25:21] <SWPadnos> the 24" will be 1920x1200 I imagine
[22:25:33] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure if it's better to match the dot pitch or the resolution with the laptop monitor
[22:25:37] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: then I can just set the MB on my desk and use one kybd/mouse for both
[22:25:51] <SWPadnos> yes, I'm familiar with synergy
[22:25:59] <SWPadnos> though I've never used t
[22:26:00] <SWPadnos> it
[22:26:13] <JymmmEMC> I use it all the top with my laptop, love it.
[22:26:18] <JymmmEMC> s/top/time/
[22:26:21] <SWPadnos> cool
[22:26:40] <JymmmEMC> can even copy and paste between machines
[22:28:49] <SWPadnos> I say splurge on the laptop and go weasy on the desktop - desktops are easier to upgrade
[22:28:59] <SWPadnos> s/weasy/easy/
[22:46:46] <Gamma-X> is there an adapter to convert a pci to a pcmicia like use a pci card on a laptop?
[22:48:01] <alex_joni> yes
[22:48:12] <alex_joni> the other way around
[22:48:22] <alex_joni> you can use cardbus/pcmcia cards on a desktop
[22:48:33] <Gamma-X> i want to use a pci card on a laptop lol
[22:49:09] <alex_joni> I don't think you can do that
[22:49:25] <alex_joni> but most of the times you can find the same card in cardbus/pcmcia format
[22:50:14] <SWPadnos> you can get PCI card cages that attach to PCMCIA/cardbus
[22:50:19] <SWPadnos> also AGP and I think PCIe
[22:51:24] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos i tried lookin got a link?
[22:51:29] <SWPadnos> one sec
[22:51:36] <Gamma-X> i wanna use those mesa net cards with my laptop
[22:51:39] <Gamma-X> it will be better
[22:51:45] <SWPadnos> probably not
[22:51:56] <Gamma-X> well
[22:51:59] <Gamma-X> in my situation
[22:52:06] <Gamma-X> its a fast laptop and i already have it'
[22:52:09] <SWPadnos> better than the laptop itself, but you'd be better off buying a cheap PC instead of a card cage and PCMCIA adapter
[22:52:30] <SWPadnos> they're not cheap - minimum $300-400
[22:52:36] <Gamma-X> ouch
[22:53:42] <SWPadnos> http://www.magma.com/products/pci/index.html
[22:57:13] <Gamma-X> i gotta find some computer aprts damn
[22:57:59] <cradek> every business has a dozen old computers they don't want
[22:58:21] <cradek> many households have 1-2
[23:04:15] <gezar> well crap, that cdrom I just finished taking apart, had an elaborate zero back lash rack and pinion drive
[23:06:34] <alex_joni> I like the term "had"
[23:09:22] <stustev> how would I change the color of some of the components in the 5axisgui file?
[23:10:10] <cradek> I think jepler added color support recently but I don't know for sure how to use it
[23:10:25] <cradek> also, I bet it's not on the w-tool branch
[23:10:47] <eric__u> too bad there is no driver for the mesa pport card
[23:11:12] <cradek> but there is
[23:11:19] <eric__u> does it owrk?
[23:11:20] <cradek> with IO only, so far
[23:11:30] <cradek> I think someone is working on a better one
[23:11:35] <eric__u> that don't do me no goood
[23:12:27] <alex_joni> eric__u: why not?
[23:12:56] <alex_joni> you can attach stepgens to mesa io's
[23:13:01] <eric__u> is the servo drive working?
[23:13:03] <alex_joni> and it will run way faster than parport
[23:13:13] <alex_joni> the servo stuff works with the 5i20
[23:13:23] <alex_joni> stepper stuff doesn't work inside the 5i20 yet
[23:14:01] <eric__u> i might just buy another 5i20
[23:14:11] <SWPadnos> eric_U, if you have any FPGA experience, putting the servo / stepgen code into the 7i43 should be easy
[23:14:21] <eric__u> but the 7iwhatever would save quite a bit of cash
[23:14:50] <SWPadnos> I haven't looked at it, but I imagine peteW has made a 32-bit local bus that's similar to what the PLX chips do for the 5i2x
[23:15:10] <SWPadnos> (with USB / parport on the other side, instead of PCI)
[23:15:29] <eric__u> if i/o is working then that part should be easy to adapt?
[23:15:43] <SWPadnos> yes - that was kind of my point :)
[23:15:57] <SWPadnos> the HAL driver is probably the hard part
[23:16:01] <alex_joni> then there's the driver.. another nuisance.. but it should work eventually
[23:16:44] <SWPadnos> all the code is more or less written - you'd probably want to combine some aspects of the PPMC driver (bulk reads/writes and shadow registers) with the mesa driver
[23:17:44] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: that somehow gave me the impression of a 100 monkeys snipping & stitching code together till it works right
[23:17:53] <SWPadnos> heh
[23:17:57] <SWPadnos> I resemble that remark
[23:18:15] <eric__u> most code is written that was, in my experience
[23:18:32] <eric__u> how many windows programs contained generic.c?
[23:18:35] <alex_joni> it reminded me somehow of the monkeys & shakespear works paradigm
[23:19:22] <eric__u> that's how most software programs are written, you only feed the monkeys that are working on stuff you want
[23:19:32] <alex_joni> err.. codemonkeys :P
[23:19:47] <eric__u> that's a difference without a distinction
[23:19:49] <eric__u> :)
[23:21:06] <alex_joni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
[23:21:56] <eric__u> what do you get when you put 1000 monkeys in a room with typewriters for a month?
[23:22:01] <eric__u> 1000 dead monkeys
[23:23:11] <bill2or3> stinky typewriters?
[23:25:18] <eric__u> I thought HAL drivers were easier to write than the old drivers
[23:25:21] <eric__u> ?
[23:29:09] <eric__u> so is JMKasunich the only person that's ever written a driver for HAL?
[23:29:25] <cradek> certainly not
[23:31:50] <eric__u> is a hardware driver also a hal component?
[23:31:57] <alex_joni> yes
[23:32:07] <alex_joni> sometimes it's even a RT component
[23:32:13] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:32:21] <eric__u> is it always a kernel module?
[23:32:36] <alex_joni> eric__u: mostly it's a RT component / kernel module
[23:32:37] <cradek> yes all realtime components are loaded as kernel modules
[23:32:48] <alex_joni> there are also userspace drivers which are not realtime
[23:32:54] <alex_joni> mostly for misc IO
[23:33:11] <alex_joni> (like jeff's driver for the arduino board, or other drivers for modbus & co)
[23:33:51] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is off to bed
[23:33:55] <eric__u> bye