#emc | Logs for 2008-01-02

[00:03:02] <BigJohnT> skunkworks: they are all lined up like ducks in a row Nice Job
[00:03:28] <skunkworks> thanks. I really don't like tiling :)
[00:03:29] <BigJohnT> and I see some bookmatching
[00:03:40] <skunkworks> wife did that - I am colorblind
[00:03:55] <BigJohnT> don't do any phone lines then
[00:03:56] <skunkworks> still needs to be cleaded a few more times.
[00:04:12] <skunkworks> I do network cable by the twist in the pairs.
[00:04:39] <BigJohnT> is this your entrance to your house?
[00:04:53] <skunkworks> back door - kitchen area
[00:05:24] <BigJohnT> cool, it will look nice when it's done I can tell
[00:05:36] <skunkworks> getting there. thanks
[00:05:46] <Unit41> fucking never ending clicking
[00:06:15] <Unit41> sometimes the computer just pisses me off because i cannot use it fast enough
[00:06:31] <BigJohnT> get a bfh then
[00:06:39] <Unit41> each time I wake im somehow fealing the groove that I cant handle
[00:06:53] <BigJohnT> are you a bot?
[00:07:02] <Unit41> fuck bot
[00:07:11] <BigJohnT> i c
[00:07:21] <Unit41> who are you
[00:07:25] <BigJohnT> me
[00:07:42] <Unit41> thats what i say
[00:07:48] <BigJohnT> yep
[00:08:00] <Unit41> who ?
[00:08:29] <BigJohnT> well this is pointless so I'll just get a glass of wine and do something productive
[00:08:36] <Unit41> we fucked on the bed fucked on the floor fucked so long i grew a fucking afro
[00:08:57] <dmess> grow up UNIT41
[00:09:08] <Unit41> :(
[00:09:22] <Unit41> you cant blame me
[00:09:27] <Unit41> igts the system
[00:09:42] <Unit41> hardly my doing
[00:10:04] <Unit41> im just part of the scene like all yall
[00:10:58] <BigJohnT> don't think you like meall
[00:11:35] <Unit41> its the SYSTEM OF SYSTEMS
[00:11:51] <Unit41> so complex no one will ever figure it all out
[00:13:06] <Unit41> thou shall not fuck the system
[00:14:39] <Unit41> it makes no sence from a biblical standpoint but it seems thats the way were living
[00:15:08] <BigJohnT> how'
[00:15:10] <BigJohnT> s that
[00:16:40] <BigJohnT> If you think thats a mess you should try and change things with the powers to be...
[00:17:08] <Unit41> ide love to change the world but i dont know what to dooo.... so I leave it up to you
[00:17:27] <BigJohnT> well can't waste any more time on line with useless banter...
[00:17:29] <dmess> wifey gave me 11 seasons of MASH on 36 dvd's.... WOW... ; )
[00:17:41] <BigJohnT> dmess: coo
[00:17:42] <BigJohnT> l
[00:17:46] <BigJohnT> dam
[00:17:50] <BigJohnT> m enter key
[00:18:24] <dmess> i thoght it was pretty COOL too... all the MASH one could ever want...
[00:18:33] <BigJohnT> all I wanted was the Faulty Towers DVD's and a Jewell trigger
[00:18:56] <BigJohnT> got the jewell trigger and it's sweet
[00:19:02] <dmess> we got that one for the father in law..LOL
[00:19:11] <ALS> Unit41 what makes you think I'll change it to your liking?
[00:19:20] <BigJohnT> Faulty or Jewell
[00:19:39] <dmess> Faulty
[00:19:44] <BigJohnT> cool
[00:19:50] <BigJohnT> classic
[00:20:08] <BigJohnT> "I learn it from a boook"
[00:22:18] <BigJohnT> well I bid you all a good new year including the EMC gods...
[00:22:26] <dmess> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkWWRTORMmg from the mine i was in for 4 yrs...
[00:23:01] <ALS> AHuuummmm
[00:23:28] <dmess> stan's an old friend... what a freak.. lets see how many rules we can break underground ON video...
[00:24:10] <BigJohnT> who is watching?
[00:24:10] <Unit41> ALS I can allways change it later after there is more direction
[00:24:29] <Unit41> someone has to take the initial plunge
[00:24:34] <ALS> wrong dir
[00:25:36] <dmess> me
[00:25:49] <Unit41> ahahaha
[00:26:16] <Unit41> either way someone allready planted the seeds of the future long ago
[00:26:37] <dmess> but he posted it on YOU tube... its a BIG deal.. around the mine..
[00:26:38] <Unit41> the future is inevitable it can only be delayed
[00:28:54] <Unit41> I only say that because i doubt it can be sped up much more
[00:30:13] <dmess> it can only be sped up as fast as you can create it...
[00:30:14] <ALS> and what are we speeding for
[00:35:44] <Unit41> to keep up with demand
[00:36:08] <Unit41> aha thats what were doing....
[00:36:17] <Unit41> were fixing the world through commercial goods
[00:36:48] <Unit41> if people in other country's want fridges and stoves they can come get our old ones
[00:37:05] <ALS> are you chinese
[00:37:29] <Unit41> what would that even explain ?
[00:38:08] <ALS> we don't make goods anymore
[00:38:24] <ALS> we make burgers
[00:39:29] <Unit41> mmmm
[00:39:42] <Unit41> I make arcball
[00:43:28] <maddash> is it possiible to read the value of a hal param of one component inside another one?
[00:45:10] <SWPadnos> params can't be "connected" to other components
[00:45:19] <SWPadnos> but the hal library is capable of getting at the data, of course
[00:46:43] <maddash> is there any official, non-hack method -- a hack being defined as halscope's SHMPTR method?
[00:47:02] <SWPadnos> not to get at params
[00:47:17] <SWPadnos> the "best" way to do that would be to change the param to a pin
[00:47:34] <jmkasunich> params are by definition not intended for comp to comp communications
[00:47:37] <SWPadnos> or decide that what you're doing is wrong, and use another method
[00:47:40] <maddash> yes, that's the "hack" i've been considering
[00:48:14] <SWPadnos> well, you may need to revisit the reason you're trying to get at one component's params from another - that may be the basis of the hackishness of the solution space
[00:48:24] <maddash> I'm trying to get the current velocity of stepgen -- this is exported by stepgen.N.frequency
[00:48:27] <jmkasunich> some params do have justification for changing to pins, and the setp command has been modified so if there is no param of that name, and there is an unconnected pin of that name, it will set the pin instead
[00:48:45] <jmkasunich> you want it in steps per second, not user units?
[00:49:11] <maddash> both work fine, but I don't have access to either at the moment
[00:49:23] <SWPadnos> ok, the actual velocity, as limited by accel/vel limits
[00:49:28] <jmkasunich> the normal way to get velocity is to run the position through a ddt block
[00:49:46] <jmkasunich> which you could do with stepgen.n.position-feedback (or whatever the actual name is)
[00:49:59] <maddash> position-fb
[00:50:02] <maddash> right.
[00:50:03] <SWPadnos> stepgen more or less provides a canonical encoder output, doesn't it?
[00:50:17] <SWPadnos> since it has pseudo-feedback
[00:50:18] <jmkasunich> minus the index stuff
[00:50:35] <SWPadnos> ok, aren't encoders supposed to have vel output now?
[00:50:45] <SWPadnos> or was that only discussed?
[00:50:49] <jmkasunich> shhhhh
[00:50:53] <SWPadnos> oops
[00:51:17] <SWPadnos> (then again, you did point out my documentation errors earlier :P )
[00:51:24] <jmkasunich> actually, encoders are supposed to have vel, but stepgen doesn't really provide an "encoder"
[00:51:26] <SWPadnos> ie, lack thereof ;)
[00:51:47] <jmkasunich> its reasonable to expect that stepgen would comply with the encoder definition, but I never thought of it that way
[00:52:04] <SWPadnos> yeah, it's an output and a feedback component
[00:52:29] <jmkasunich> no index, and you also can't implement the reset pin (I don't think so anyway)
[00:52:50] <SWPadnos> hmmm - yeah, I'm not sure how that could be accomplished
[00:53:05] <SWPadnos> though you can do a pseudo-index, byt using counnt mod <something>
[00:53:25] <SWPadnos> man, I think I need new fingers or a new keyboard
[00:53:32] <jmkasunich> there can't be a reasonable index enable, you can't home to it, etc
[00:53:56] <jmkasunich> well, you could, but it would be totally fake
[00:54:01] <SWPadnos> there are somewhat hackish methods of doing that, but I agree that it isn't all that useful
[00:54:06] <jmkasunich> I don't want to do that, I tink its stupid
[00:54:46] <jmkasunich> index is supposed to convey some information from the real world, not something fake
[00:55:27] <SWPadnos> you can have a home switch input to the stepgen, which can either become index or be used to decide which mod-N pseudo-index to use
[00:55:39] <jmkasunich> retch
[00:55:47] <SWPadnos> like I said, hackish :)
[01:01:11] <Gamma-X> anyone have an automatic loob setup on there mill?
[01:01:29] <Gamma-X> loub*
[01:01:32] <Gamma-X> lube*
[01:05:26] <SWPadnos> daaay-am - now here's a spindle: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170128715398
[01:08:11] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos u ever dnc?
[01:08:41] <SWPadnos> I helped a machine shop set up a DNC system about 15 years ago, but not since then
[01:09:05] <SWPadnos> actually, I don't think they drip-fed it, they just downloaded programs from the PC (but DNC may have been involved)
[01:09:16] <SWPadnos> I don't remember :)
[01:10:03] <Gamma-X> nice
[01:10:16] <Gamma-X> im kidna confused on this rs232 cable
[01:10:53] <Gamma-X> http://www.aggsoft.com/cnc-dnc/anilam-crusader-ii-m.htm
[01:11:02] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos if u can check that out and look down on the bottom of the apge
[01:11:14] <SWPadnos> ok, what's the trouble?
[01:11:17] <Gamma-X> what are the differances in the setup.
[01:11:26] <Gamma-X> differant ways of setting it up
[01:12:06] <SWPadnos> do you have a 9-pin or 25-pin port on your PC?
[01:12:18] <SWPadnos> (the top two images are for 9, bottom for 25)
[01:12:46] <Gamma-X> uhhh
[01:12:49] <Gamma-X> let me see
[01:13:01] <SWPadnos> oh - the bluetooth adapter had a 9-pin connection
[01:13:26] <SWPadnos> are you trying to use the BT dongle(s) still?
[01:14:24] <Gamma-X> i doubt it
[01:14:31] <SWPadnos> ok, good :)
[01:14:36] <Gamma-X> im afraid to mess shit up
[01:14:56] <SWPadnos> so, assuming that you have a PC made in the last 10 years or so, you probably have a 9-pin connector
[01:15:01] <Gamma-X> i dont think my laptop has a serial port hahaha
[01:15:17] <SWPadnos> then you'll need to get one - the USB ones will likely work
[01:15:32] <SWPadnos> and they're very likely to be 9-pin as well
[01:15:55] <Gamma-X> ok
[01:16:00] <SWPadnos> so, the diagrams on the left (the without handshake ones) are easier to make, but require software handshaking
[01:16:29] <SWPadnos> that's a bit slower, but it looks like the software supports it
[01:16:56] <Gamma-X> my home pc has a 9 ping, well im using a 1989 anilam controller so what would be faster handshake on the cable?
[01:17:00] <SWPadnos> the diagrams on the right are for cables with hardware handshaking lines - harder to make, but may be better in the end
[01:17:23] <SWPadnos> hardware handshake is better in most cases, but it does depend on the processor speed
[01:17:32] <Gamma-X> of the controller or computer?
[01:17:39] <SWPadnos> both
[01:17:53] <Gamma-X> well controller is 386 based and my pc is 3.6 ghz
[01:18:14] <SWPadnos> the PC shouldn't have a problem ;)
[01:18:21] <Gamma-X> i figured so lol
[01:18:22] <SWPadnos> the controller shouldn't either, but you never know
[01:18:58] <Gamma-X> i wonder if i should get teh wireless ones...
[01:19:00] <SWPadnos> in any case, you should be able to get a null-modem cable or adapter, and then an extension cable, and it should work
[01:19:20] <SWPadnos> the pin numbers look normal to me (but I haven't looked at serial port pinouts for a long time, so I could be wrong)
[01:19:41] <Gamma-X> whats a null modem cable i hear that and i think wow 1986
[01:20:29] <SWPadnos> it connects the "output lines" for hardware handshaking to the "input lines" on the other end, and it swaps the receive data / transmit data pins also
[01:20:55] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos would u trust a wifi connection for this?
[01:21:08] <SWPadnos> if you connected e.g. two computers together with "straight-through" cables, then the transmit lines would be connected together, the receive line stogether, etc.
[01:21:10] <SWPadnos> no
[01:21:13] <Gamma-X> i mean i can only run at 4800 baud lol
[01:21:26] <SWPadnos> I wouldn't use a radio between the G-code and the motion controller
[01:21:41] <Gamma-X> ok
[01:21:56] <Gamma-X> i got a plan
[01:22:11] <SWPadnos> in my view, the only place to use a radio is when a cable is very difficult or impossible
[01:22:18] <Gamma-X> kinda is
[01:22:21] <Gamma-X> detached garage
[01:22:28] <SWPadnos> and I used to make radio controls for a living (I still get the checks from the company ;) )
[01:22:37] <Gamma-X> realy? lol
[01:22:42] <SWPadnos> you aren't going to put the PC in the house and the machine in the garage, are you?
[01:22:50] <Gamma-X> yes lol
[01:22:57] <Gamma-X> i dont want the bluetooth ones though
[01:22:58] <Gamma-X> the wifi
[01:23:01] <Gamma-X> 802.11
[01:23:03] <SWPadnos> that's - to put it bluntly - a dumb idea ;)
[01:23:18] <SWPadnos> you can network from the garage to the house, no problem
[01:23:38] <SWPadnos> but I wouldn't put any "thin air" between the PC with the G-code and the motors
[01:23:47] <SWPadnos> use copper, it conducts much better
[01:24:26] <Gamma-X> how much is a usb serial adapter
[01:24:33] <Gamma-X> or pcmcia adapter
[01:24:48] <SWPadnos> should be $30 or less for a USB one (probably $5 if you find a cheeso one)
[01:24:55] <Gamma-X> lol
[01:25:07] <Gamma-X> ill just use my laptop
[01:25:28] <Gamma-X> its got built in wifi so i can set it up on the network and transfew from pc to laptop to controller
[01:25:51] <Gamma-X> but thats more amps bein pulled from garage lol
[01:25:56] <maddash> SWPadnos: I pointed them out
[01:25:57] <maddash> :P
[01:26:02] <Gamma-X> i only have a 30 amp box in my garage
[01:26:10] <SWPadnos> I'm sure a laptop and/or PC won't pop a breaker
[01:26:36] <Gamma-X> laptop and a cnc machine on a 30 amp box? lol
[01:27:03] <SWPadnos> well, the CNC might be an issue
[01:27:22] <maddash> jmkasunich: re velocity fb: how much extra processor usage would adding a DDT block cause?
[01:27:34] <jmkasunich> negligable
[01:27:46] <jmkasunich> a few hundred nanoseconds
[01:27:48] <SWPadnos> it's a single subtraction and a multiplication - should be about 4 cycles plus cache fill time
[01:27:58] <SWPadnos> (plus some memory accesses, of course)
[01:28:08] <jmkasunich> there is some moderate HAL overhead, but not much
[01:28:10] <alex_joni> and HAL execution
[01:28:30] <SWPadnos> I think we saw that HAL overhead was in the tens or low hundreds of cycles
[01:28:45] <maddash> hm, so it might be better for me to hack the param into a pin
[01:28:54] <jmkasunich> you are fscking nuts
[01:28:57] <SWPadnos> it'll still be in steps-per-second
[01:28:58] <fenn> yep
[01:29:04] <SWPadnos> not in units per second
[01:29:05] <fenn> maddash: why are you even using emc?
[01:29:10] <jmkasunich> anyone who cycle counts on a PC in these days is an idiot
[01:29:17] <SWPadnos> so you'll need to multiply/divide that to get a usable number
[01:29:25] <SWPadnos> it may not be a PC
[01:29:58] <maddash> fenn: b/c I don't want to have to program my own rs274 interp and a tp
[01:30:07] <SWPadnos> I thought it was some powerPC embedded thing
[01:30:10] <SWPadnos> or was that someone else?
[01:30:15] <fenn> maddash: why are you using rs274 to run a robot?
[01:30:16] <SWPadnos> err - ARM
[01:30:23] <maddash> jmkasunich: ok ok, I'll do both and benchmark it
[01:30:33] <maddash> them*
[01:31:12] <SWPadnos> maddash, if you get the BASE_PERIOD down low enough (dependent on the PC and processes running), then you'll see a drastic speedup in thread execution time
[01:31:37] <maddash> jmkasunich: and anyone who cycle counts on a PC in the context of EMC could be trying to squeeze out the smallest *_PERIOD posisble
[01:31:37] <SWPadnos> once you get to the point where the fast thread code/data isn't evicted from cache (at least, that's the theory)
[01:31:56] <maddash> yes, you told me about that last year
[01:32:39] <jmkasunich> maddash: you'll see far greater effects from cache issues then from cycle counting
[01:32:48] <SWPadnos> remember - if the other module goes away (which can happen), you'll be looking at nothing (or an access violation, in kernel space)
[01:32:57] <SWPadnos> that's if you try to access params, that is
[01:33:03] <maddash> fenn: walking. running. attack.
[01:33:13] <maddash> fenn: evasive manuever patterns.
[01:33:17] <fenn> yes, rs274 is clearly suited to these tasks
[01:33:20] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I wonder what changing that variable to a pin would do to execution time
[01:33:30] <SWPadnos> since it would then be double-indirect access
[01:33:37] <jmkasunich> again, negligable
[01:33:48] <SWPadnos> right - compared to using a ddt block ...
[01:34:00] <SWPadnos> ie, 6 of 1, sqrt(36) of the other
[01:34:09] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: any optimisations you might make on a machine might be void or less on the next one
[01:34:20] <SWPadnos> I'm painfully aware of that ;)
[01:34:21] <alex_joni> thinking wcet-like
[01:34:33] <alex_joni> wcet= worst case execution time
[01:34:45] <alex_joni> (which is what you should consider for RT operation)
[01:34:51] <SWPadnos> oh sure - use a chip with the same core speed and 1/2 the cache size, and you're hosed
[01:35:00] <SWPadnos> or not - it's almost random
[01:35:13] <alex_joni> or the other way around.. and you wait for the cache to fill :)
[01:35:27] <alex_joni> there's a nice nvidia specific instruction
[01:35:32] <SWPadnos> I really like the way the core 2 duo gets better latencies when one core is bogged down doing nothing
[01:35:43] <alex_joni> (err .. not nvidia specific.. but I think the nvidia driver uses it)
[01:35:58] <SWPadnos> (ie, while true ; do echo "nothing" > /dev/null ; done)
[01:36:01] <alex_joni> it's something that takes a couple of hundred thousand cycles to complete
[01:36:19] <SWPadnos> like REP STOSB? :)
[01:36:26] <alex_joni> flush all caches and write back info.. or somethign like that
[01:36:27] <SWPadnos> with a very very high count
[01:36:44] <alex_joni> it takes a bit to store into memory 4-8MB of caches
[01:36:51] <SWPadnos> oh yeah - some invalidate cache and write back or something
[01:36:56] <maddash> what I don't understand is why the velocity wasn't exported along with the position in the first place, since there already is a variable for it
[01:37:04] <SWPadnos> it's not velocity
[01:37:08] <SWPadnos> it's step frequency
[01:37:17] <SWPadnos> it's proportional to velocity, but you still need to scale it
[01:37:20] <maddash> which is proportional (and just as good as) vel
[01:37:37] <SWPadnos> the velocity can change on a step-by-step basis, it doesn't change only at the servo rate
[01:37:49] <SWPadnos> which would require floating-point math in the base thread
[01:38:17] <SWPadnos> (it's not necessary for getting to the next frequency, but it would be necessary for converting that to a velocity)
[01:41:14] <maddash> well, I hope you guys are happy, because I've set up the ddt block
[01:41:21] <SWPadnos> yay! :)
[01:41:35] <SWPadnos> look at ddt.n.tmax
[01:41:41] <maddash> if my robot dies in combat b/c of some reaction latency, there'll be hell to pay
[01:41:58] <SWPadnos> luckily, we're separated by a thick location barrier
[01:42:47] <ALS> he's sending the robot to get ya
[01:43:01] <SWPadnos> I'll drive over it with my Jeep
[01:43:25] <ALS> jeeperz
[01:44:06] <alex_joni> creepers
[01:48:08] <maddash> ddt.0.tmax=809, but I'm running sim on for the moment, so is this value reliable?
[01:48:43] <SWPadnos> I don't think so - the kernel can interrupt the userspace apps
[01:48:52] <SWPadnos> but it won't be more than that in kernel space
[01:48:54] <SWPadnos> (I think)
[01:49:55] <SWPadnos> also, try plotting ddt.0.time - you'll get a good idea of the distribution that way
[01:52:23] <jmkasunich> I think you'll find that vast majority of the time its quite fast, and once in a while its slow
[01:52:39] <SWPadnos> especially on sim
[01:52:54] <jmkasunich> the slow ones are when something else displaces it from cache, or it gets interrupted, or any of many many other things that totally swamp out a few cycles
[01:53:15] <Gamma-X> SWPadnos im realy tempted to do the wireless dnc...
[01:53:23] <SWPadnos> have fun
[01:53:27] <SWPadnos> it may even work
[01:53:53] <Gamma-X> lol
[01:55:38] <maddash> http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=200801012053351400x1050wf9.png
[01:55:57] <maddash> wtf? ddt is supposed to be smooth
[01:56:16] <troi> who want make money
[01:57:00] <maddash> i make robot take money
[01:58:16] <jmkasunich> maddash: you are measuring feedback velocity, which is quantized - its a stepper after all
[01:58:37] <jmkasunich> it moves some integer number of steps each servo period (sometimes zero)
[01:59:51] <SWPadnos> it looks like the ddt is in the base thread
[02:00:00] <SWPadnos> that's a 25 KHz sample rate
[02:00:48] <SWPadnos> so the output will always be 0, 1 step, or -1 step
[02:00:56] <maddash> yep. I'm running all of this off a hal test setup
[02:01:33] <SWPadnos> interesting - notice how the ddt execution time trends downward as the step frequency goes up
[02:01:49] <SWPadnos> or it has more samples at a lower time anyway - maybe not a trend
[02:04:01] <maddash> quick comparison of usefulness of ddt vs. stepgen.0.frequency: http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9562/200801012102381400x1050us3.png
[02:05:07] <maddash> my hal file (for those interested): http://pastebin.org/13789
[02:05:43] <SWPadnos> one thing - you did set fp=1 for the base thread, right?
[02:05:51] <SWPadnos> fp0 or whatever it's actually called
[02:06:52] <SWPadnos> hey - what's that desktop theme called? those look like NextStep/GnuStep icons
[02:07:51] <maddash> oooooh, I didn't notice fp1=* in the manpage
[02:07:56] <maddash> thanks for that
[02:08:00] <SWPadnos> sure
[02:08:13] <maddash> does it matter in sim?
[02:08:22] <SWPadnos> dunno - probably not
[02:08:43] <maddash> I'm using iceWM and rox-filer (file manager) with the theme, IceBuntu
[02:08:47] <SWPadnos> though it might. I don't know how the context is changed between "threads" and "other stuff" in sim
[02:08:55] <SWPadnos> interesting
[02:09:14] <SWPadnos> the source icons and the gear thingy look very similar to some nextstep icons
[02:09:40] <SWPadnos> I wish there were next drivers for modern hardware - I still have NeXTStep 3.1-ish
[02:22:25] <maddash> fp=1 by default, i think
[02:23:31] <SWPadnos> that would be the safest
[02:48:18] <alex_joni> night all
[03:09:22] <Gamma-X> got some good news
[03:09:38] <Gamma-X> found out my spindle on off is controlled by the controlller aswell as reverse
[03:15:51] <tomp> 80-20 is now architecture http://www.tomahouse.com yes, it's just alum extrusion underneath (flash heavy, user beware) ( and i was looking at recycled shipping container house when i stumbled into it )
[03:17:00] <fenn> i know someone who works with tomahouse
[03:17:32] <fenn> er, worked. now he's with jeriko house
[03:18:07] <SWPadnos> I just hate sites that pop up maximized windows
[03:18:27] <SWPadnos> it's very annoying when "maximized" means "spanning 3 1280x1024 monitors"
[03:18:43] <fenn> send them some hate mail
[03:19:12] <SWPadnos> oh, even better, flash decided that some stuff should be right-justified on that 3840x1280 canvas
[03:22:57] <Gamma-X> i just read a nice forum that had rogern talkin about a retrofit
[03:27:31] <fenn> tomahouse kinda reminds me of disneyland
[03:29:34] <Gamma-X> how do i know if i have servos or steppers?
[03:29:46] <SWPadnos> it doesn't look like it's appropriate for colder climates
[03:32:38] <Gamma-X> ?
[03:32:47] <tomp> jeriko house is 80-20 too
[03:32:55] <tomp> 80-22 :)
[03:34:23] <Gamma-X> anone know the differance between servo and stepper?
[03:34:51] <tomp> google do
[03:34:55] <SWPadnos> sure, but it's hard to describe how *you* can tell the difference :)
[03:35:29] <SWPadnos> if the motor isn't attached to a machine, you can turn the shaft. if it turns smoothly, it's a servo, coggy = stepper
[03:35:45] <Gamma-X> there attached lol
[03:35:50] <Gamma-X> fudge
[03:35:51] <tomp> wikipedia too
[03:36:07] <SWPadnos> if the wires are visible, then a servo will have only two wires (plus any for a tach and/or encoder), but a stepper will have 4, 5, 6, or 8
[03:36:18] <SWPadnos> if there's an encoder, it's likely a servo
[03:36:22] <SWPadnos> or a tach, for that matter
[03:36:50] <SWPadnos> if you look at the drivers, they may be labelled for the type of motor they drive
[03:37:02] <SWPadnos> (DC brush servo or stepper, or something else)
[03:37:16] <Gamma-X> ok thanks.
[03:37:23] <Gamma-X> ill take off the back panel tomorow
[03:37:37] <SWPadnos> you could also try looking at the motor nameplate, if one is visible
[03:38:05] <Gamma-X> it doesnt say
[03:38:26] <Gamma-X> im goin to bed i will talk to u all tomorow
[03:38:28] <SWPadnos> what ratings does it have?
[03:38:31] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:38:33] <Gamma-X> what do u mean
[03:38:47] <Gamma-X> 2400 rpm max.
[03:38:52] <Gamma-X> 140 v
[03:38:54] <SWPadnos> if it lists things like "holding torque", "steps/rev", "max frequency", then it's a stepper
[03:39:12] <Gamma-X> ok
[03:39:25] <Gamma-X> i know it says sem mt30 i think
[03:39:26] <SWPadnos> if it has stuff like "Volts/1000RPM, and torque/amp" then it's a DC servo
[03:39:32] <SWPadnos> I think that's a servo
[03:39:36] <SWPadnos> but you can google it
[03:39:39] <Gamma-X> ok
[03:39:41] <Gamma-X> i will lata
[03:39:44] <Gamma-X> gnight all
[03:39:48] <SWPadnos> see you
[03:41:11] <tomp> google's 3d warehouse is fun, sort of a vrml warehouse of objects
[03:49:04] <maddash> what is "lolcats" and why is every commenter on this page http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/01/01/funny-pictures-no-fite-just-rubs/ dyslexic?
[03:52:46] <jmkasunich> murphy lives
[03:53:01] <fenn> praise to the chaos god
[03:53:07] <jmkasunich> home for two weeks, no snow.... have to go to work in the morning, and we have close to a foot and still falling
[03:54:13] <hodgepodge> hi quick question, where might I find the backlash compensation settings in emc?
[03:54:21] <jmkasunich> in the ini file
[03:54:28] <hodgepodge> ah!
[03:54:30] <jmkasunich> [AXIS]BACKLASH = whatever
[03:54:51] <jmkasunich> AXIS_n that is, where n = 0 to whatever axis
[03:55:47] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/star-test-1821.jpg
[03:56:15] <hodgepodge> is that just in inches? so 0.004 would be 4 thou?
[03:56:40] <jmkasunich> its in machine units, like the rest of the ini file
[03:56:40] <maddash> jmkasunich: whoa. how you make those? edm?
[03:56:45] <jmkasunich> if you used inches, its in inches
[03:56:53] <hodgepodge> thanks
[03:56:54] <jmkasunich> maddash: milled it
[03:57:03] <Jymmmmm> for electrical diagram, what should I use to draw it up?
[03:57:28] <maddash> jmkasunich: but the bottom of your grooves are almost perfectly sharp
[03:57:41] <jmkasunich> I ground a pointy tool
[03:57:56] <hodgepodge> lol
[03:59:08] <jmkasunich> started with one of these: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/misc-tooling-2.jpg
[03:59:15] <Jymmmmm> jmkasunich: On the spiral, I see like \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ marks new the top-left, what are those caused by?
[03:59:24] <jmkasunich> and ground a fairly shallow V on it
[03:59:25] <Jymmmmm> s/new/on/
[03:59:44] <jmkasunich> Jymmm probably just tool marks
[03:59:51] <jmkasunich> I'm only running 1450 RPM or so
[04:00:07] <jmkasunich> and that was a rather deep cut for that tool
[04:00:11] <Jymmmmm> jmkasunich: Ok, so what would you need to eliminant them in the first place?
[04:00:25] <jmkasunich> sharper tools, lighter cuts, I dunno
[04:00:28] <jmkasunich> practice
[04:00:44] <jmkasunich> higher speeds would probably help
[04:01:17] <tomp> one foot in Cleveland?
[04:01:18] <Jymmmmm> jmkasunich: oh, so not soething you have a LOT of exp in diag just by looking?
[04:01:22] <jmkasunich> yep
[04:01:30] <tomp> argh, gotta goto mentor
[04:01:47] <jmkasunich> tomp: from illinois? thats a haul
[04:01:53] <Jymmmmm> jmkasunich: k. Les could look at that and tell you what your setttings were. I just thought everyone else had that too.
[04:02:06] <tomp> yep, just had 3600 mileson my 91 honda wagon
[04:02:39] <tomp> chi/mentor/portland-maine/newyork/boston/hartford/mentor again/chi
[04:02:54] <jmkasunich> ouch
[04:02:57] <jmkasunich> wrong time of year for that
[04:03:16] <tomp> well, happy new year to all, it's bye for me
[04:11:33] <Jymmmmm> What are some proggys for drawing up electrical diagrams?
[04:11:46] <SWPadnos> Altium
[04:12:39] <Jymmmmm> SWPadnos: Does it take a few months to learn, cause you dont have that long.
[04:12:50] <SWPadnos> I have it, and I've learned it reasonably well :)
[04:13:07] <Jymmmmm> SWPadnos: Is there something more TONKA based?
[04:13:22] <SWPadnos> but I'd only be able to give you diagrams as PDF files, since I don't think you'll be spending $8k to $12k on your own copy
[04:14:16] <SWPadnos> you can use corel draw if you want - you won't be making netlists
[04:14:47] <Jymmmmm> SWPadnos: I meant something with objects; fuses, switches, lamps, etc
[04:15:05] <SWPadnos> yeah - I don't know. Eagle may have those symbols, but I'm not sure
[04:15:21] <SWPadnos> I never have found a good "cabinet wiring" diagrammer
[04:15:38] <Jymmmmm> LawrenceG used something, but never asked what it was.
[04:16:08] <SWPadnos> most people I've asked just use whatever CAD program they're used to - AutoCAD, Eagle, OrCad, etc.
[04:16:25] <fenn> Jymmmmm: check out kicad, it's much easier to pick up than eagle
[04:16:29] <fenn> and free
[04:16:45] <Jymmmmm> looking.....
[04:16:56] <fenn> the symbol library kinda sucks though
[04:17:08] <SWPadnos> there were a few ladder diagram makers that had good syumbol libraries for this stuff, but they were all time-limited demos (until you pay $a few hundred for them)
[04:17:14] <SWPadnos> symbol
[04:17:16] <Jymmmmm> fenn: does it have electrocal symbols?
[04:17:26] <fenn> boy does it
[04:17:48] <Jymmmmm> even a Win32 varianty too....
[04:18:27] <Jymmmmm> fenn: 3D too?
[04:18:40] <fenn> for some things
[04:18:50] <Jymmmmm> http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/About_KiCad
[04:18:53] <fenn> its opengl too, not pov-ray
[04:18:58] <Jymmmmm> Just saw the 3D photo on that page
[04:19:12] <fenn> dont think you can export a model or anything
[04:19:41] <Jymmmmm> no need to, just slightly impressed with the featureset
[04:20:24] <fenn> i think its supposed to be like orcad
[04:20:38] <SWPadnos> that's not a good goal
[04:20:40] <SWPadnos> IMO
[04:20:44] <fenn> that might explain a lot of UI suckage
[04:21:09] <fenn> but maybe its just because they're french :)
[04:21:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:21:31] <Jymmmmm> fenn: is there an english manual?
[04:21:34] <fenn> yes
[04:21:36] <SWPadnos> those are pretty nice 3D previews
[04:21:37] <Jymmmmm> k
[04:22:16] <fenn> you can get to it from the help menu
[04:22:43] <fenn> http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Mini_tutorial
[04:25:00] <Jymmmmm> fenn: TY, I'll check it out.
[04:49:14] <LawrenceG> Jymmm: been a long time.... last year I think
[04:54:08] <jmkasunich> lerman: you here?
[05:55:29] <Skullworks-PGAB> * Skullworks-PGAB is home again :/
[06:29:12] <Jymmmmm> fenn: Did you say that kicad had electrical components? breakers, relays, contactors, lamps etc?
[06:44:16] <jmkasunich> lost steps suck: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/mahan-1.jpg
[06:44:55] <jmkasunich> (also, unflat stock sucks)
[08:35:34] <Jymmmmm> jmkasunich: Sounds like you're beginign to appreciate my delima
[08:38:28] <Jymmmmm> this is quite nice... http://mp4cam2avi.sourceforge.net/index.htm#features
[12:00:08] <alex_joni> morning all
[12:00:36] <BigJohnT> morning Alex
[12:02:46] <alex_joni> what's up?
[12:02:48] <BigJohnT> does net replace newsig and linksp
[12:03:34] <BigJohnT> programming a g code generator for SHCS's counterbores
[12:08:00] <BigJohnT> http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Python/counterbore.jpg
[12:29:57] <alex_joni> yeah, net is equivalent with linksp and newsig
[12:30:14] <BigJohnT> ok
[12:30:40] <alex_joni> but newsig and linksp won't go away
[12:31:38] <BigJohnT> they have to stay for backwards compatability?
[12:32:01] <alex_joni> and because there's nothing wrong with them :)
[12:32:17] <alex_joni> andd some people find them easier to understand
[12:32:19] <BigJohnT> or is there situations where they still can be used
[12:32:31] <BigJohnT> that
[12:32:34] <BigJohnT> 's cool
[12:32:42] <alex_joni> they are equivalent.. so both can be used to do the exact same things
[12:33:00] <fenn> linksp linkps are close to what is actually going on in the code
[12:33:00] <BigJohnT> just what ever you get used too
[12:33:34] <BigJohnT> what is linkps?
[12:33:41] <alex_joni> same as linksp
[12:33:42] <fenn> link pin to signal
[12:33:46] <alex_joni> but in reverse
[12:33:59] <alex_joni> (reverse semantics..)
[12:34:23] <BigJohnT> instead of link signal to pin with linksp?
[12:34:52] <BigJohnT> so I'm guessing that linkpp is link pin to pin
[12:37:03] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[12:37:43] <fenn> yes but it caused some confusion because it creates a new signal with the same name as the first pin
[13:04:38] <alex_joni> bbl
[14:26:52] <cradek> good morning! happy new year! oh I was doing some year-end cleanup and I deleted all my data... [one of my users]
[14:28:02] <skunkworks> oops
[14:28:44] <rayh> morning guys. happy all that stuff also.
[14:28:55] <SWPadnos> tank yew, tank yew
[14:29:38] <rayh> What is that a terrorist's imitation of Gen Patton?
[14:29:44] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:30:06] <SWPadnos> more like a lumberjack or bowmaker I guess
[14:30:12] <SWPadnos> hmmm - what is a bowmaker called?
[14:30:33] <rayh> I give up.
[14:30:40] <SWPadnos> I don't know
[14:31:12] <rayh> We thinking violin bow or bow-and-arrow.
[14:31:21] <SWPadnos> longbow (and arrow)
[14:31:38] <SWPadnos> but I suppose one could be wrapping presents or making instrument strummers as well
[14:32:21] <rayh> I wonder what culture invented the longbow.
[14:32:37] <SWPadnos> probably the Chinese, in about 2500 BC
[14:33:39] <SWPadnos> first recorded use was by the Welsh in 633AD
[14:34:40] <rayh> We see here the cultural definition of history. Which history do we read.
[14:34:50] <SWPadnos> ah - at least two Neolithic longbows were discovered in England, radiocarbon dated to between 34040 and 36640 BC
[14:35:06] <SWPadnos> err - 4040 and 3640 BC
[14:35:13] <SWPadnos> that would have been a very wide error bar ;)
[14:35:39] <rayh> yes it would.
[14:36:00] <rayh> But when you get that far back what's a little error among friends.
[14:36:18] <SWPadnos> yeah - not like anybody can prove them wrong (at the moment)
[14:37:22] <SWPadnos> interesting page: http://www.edinformatics.com/inventions_inventors/longbow.htm
[14:42:33] <rayh> Bower is the only name I found associated with the craft of bow making.
[14:42:49] <rayh> Never thought of pronouncing it that way.
[14:43:21] <SWPadnos> yeah - seems more related to "bowery"]
[14:43:24] <SWPadnos> -]
[14:52:07] <jepler> SWPadnos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowyer "A bowyer is a person who makes bows for archery. The term bowyer typically implies a skilled craftsman, though with simpler designs even a beginner can produce a functional bow."
[14:52:47] <SWPadnos> ah - thank you
[14:52:49] <jepler> (someone who makes arrows is a fletcher, not to be confused with a fletcher)
[14:53:13] <jepler> er, not to be confused with a felcher
[14:53:20] <SWPadnos> right - I actually knew the term fletcher :)
[14:53:21] <jepler> * jepler ruins his own joke
[14:53:24] <tomp> now im confused
[14:53:26] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:56:12] <rayh> I'm with tomp!
[14:58:29] <jepler> don't miss: http://www.anderswallin.net/2008/01/mowing-foam/
[15:00:35] <SWPadnos> neeeto
[15:05:38] <lerneaen_hydra> nice :)
[15:08:49] <skunkworks> mowing-phome.
[17:19:21] <maddash> hi guys, I'm confused as to the meaning of emcmotconfig->servocycletime. the variable name sounds like the amount of time to be spent inside emcmotcontroller (before permitting an exit), but from the code in setservocycletime() in motion.c, it looks like the delay in seconds before each function in servo-thread is called (e.g, servo-thread period). which is it?
[17:22:20] <SWPadnos> I haven't looked at it, but I suspect it's the thread period
[17:22:24] <SWPadnos> not a delay between functions
[17:22:50] <maddash> I misspoke
[17:22:54] <maddash> mistype*
[17:22:55] <SWPadnos> ok :)
[17:22:59] <maddash> mistyped**
[17:23:43] <maddash> the second one should read, "delay inn seconds before the execution of servo-thread begins again"
[17:23:52] <SWPadnos> sure
[17:24:37] <SWPadnos> cycle time means "the time between cycles", not "the time spent per cycle"
[17:25:08] <cradek> time between invocations
[17:25:14] <maddash> so servocycletime is predicts the next time emcmotcontroller is called
[17:25:34] <maddash> that was clear
[17:25:38] <maddash> thanks
[17:25:39] <SWPadnos> in the RT code, it should set the RTAI thread period
[17:28:10] <jepler> the calculations that setServoCycleTime does should be based off the 'period' argument when the servo function is actually called from some HAL thread. If you use 'threads' to create a thread with a different rate and put the servo functions on it, the results will likely be incorrect. (no sample configuration does this, of course)
[17:29:11] <maddash> yes, I get that
[17:29:48] <maddash> but all this assumes that the function call will take less than servocycletime
[17:30:01] <jepler> yes.
[17:30:04] <maddash> so what if the execution time of the function > servocycletime?
[17:30:07] <SWPadnos> yes, that assumption is made for all threads
[17:30:08] <jepler> then you're fucked
[17:30:09] <maddash> RT DELSY?
[17:30:11] <SWPadnos> your PC locks up
[17:30:12] <maddash> delay*
[17:30:35] <maddash> SWPadnos: was that sarcasm?
[17:30:39] <jepler> you never get back to non-realtime code because there is always a call to a real-time function pending. That makes it look like the PC has "locked up".
[17:30:48] <SWPadnos> no, I'm serious
[17:30:59] <SWPadnos> also, the PC could actually lock, depending on how stacks are managed
[17:31:02] <maddash> jepler: so the calls build up to infinity
[17:31:22] <jepler> have you watched that episode of I Love Lucy, where she is working at the candy manufacturing plant?
[17:31:28] <cradek> haha
[17:31:29] <jepler> or whatever it was
[17:31:33] <jepler> they arrive at a fixed rate
[17:31:37] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:31:39] <SWPadnos> pies
[17:31:42] <maddash> haha I can see where this is going
[17:31:44] <jepler> if you can't finish with each item within that fixed time, hilarity ensues
[17:31:52] <cradek> it was chocolates
[17:31:59] <skunkworks> yes chocolates
[17:32:18] <SWPadnos> hmmm. there was one where she was adding the whipped cream on top of pies
[17:32:34] <skunkworks> I myself like the vitavitavegamin(sp) one.. but I digress.
[17:32:53] <jepler> aha http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2151128672389072724
[17:32:54] <SWPadnos> vitameatavegamin (?)
[17:32:59] <maddash> so if a greedy bastard like me wants to squeeze out the last bit of performance from his machine and lowers servo-cycle too much, then he'd get what wwas coming for him?
[17:33:36] <SWPadnos> yes - sync first
[17:34:01] <maddash> yikes.
[17:35:17] <maddash> ROFL
[17:35:29] <maddash> hhow appropriate
[17:35:30] <skunkworks> SWPadnos:http://youtube.com/watch?v=MTsfVbN7UOM
[17:35:33] <skunkworks> http://youtube.com/watch?v=MTsfVbN7UOM
[17:36:55] <SWPadnos> hey - I spelled it right :)
[17:37:04] <maddash> wow, I never knew that black and white could be so funny
[17:39:20] <maddash> all this will be moot when the mesa TP is completed, right?
[17:39:32] <jepler> ??
[17:39:40] <jepler> I don't know what you're referring to
[17:39:42] <SWPadnos> are you working on an FPGA TP?
[17:40:04] <SWPadnos> I know Colin Mackenzie mentioned the idea, but I'm not sure where he is with it
[17:40:05] <maddash> mesa? i520 something? housing the essentials of emcmot?
[17:40:25] <SWPadnos> none of the core EMC2 developers are currently working on that, that I know of
[17:41:14] <maddash> hmm, i was thinking about it, but then I spent my savings on a dualcore asus instead
[17:41:29] <SWPadnos> probably a more sound investment
[17:41:30] <jepler> the mesa folks have something called "SoftDMC" (which essentially places the entire motion controller within the FPGA) but that's an alternative to emc, not something to be used in conjunction with it. (I don't have any specific knowledge of SoftDMC, though)
[17:41:51] <SWPadnos> I don't know how much you'd be able to get into the 5i20, and the 5i22 is $500, not $200
[17:42:32] <maddash> so what was the big fuss about the 5i20 6 months ago for?
[17:42:40] <SWPadnos> other stuff
[17:42:43] <jepler> (http://www.mesanet.com/pdf/motion/softdmc.pdf)
[17:42:51] <SWPadnos> more configurable I/O and other functions
[17:42:58] <SWPadnos> not embedding motion.c
[17:43:48] <maddash> can't get past the TOC w/o crashing xpdf
[17:43:54] <jepler> works fine on evince
[17:44:00] <maddash> :(
[17:44:16] <SWPadnos> and Acrobat reader :)
[17:44:38] <maddash> segfaults are becoming the new, "this program has performed an illegal operation" for me
[17:50:31] <jepler> what do you believe will be improved by lowering your servo cycle until just before your machine locks up?
[17:51:02] <jepler> ooh lunchtime!
[17:54:03] <maddash> interpolation resolutioon
[17:54:06] <jepler> oh interesting, the "reason" that 525 lines was selected for NTSC -- only odd numbers that were the product of small numbers were candidates, and apparently 525 was the best candidate near 500. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Lines_and_refresh_rate
[17:54:41] <SWPadnos> 5*5*17?
[17:54:52] <SWPadnos> err - 5*5*7*3
[17:54:56] <SWPadnos> not bad
[17:55:19] <jepler> I gather that 17 is "too big" a multiplier
[17:55:25] <jepler> or divisor as the case may be
[17:55:27] <SWPadnos> plus it was a mistake ;)
[17:55:38] <SWPadnos> that would have been 425 lines
[17:56:30] <jepler> well it would be a surprise if 5*5*7*3 was equal to 5*5*17..
[17:56:40] <SWPadnos> indeed it would
[18:01:48] <cradek> It's so tasty too!
[18:08:34] <jepler> hm, check my work here. if you do a circle in N servo cycles, you do 2pi/N radians per servo cycle. The maximum distance from the arc of 2pi/N radians and the chord connecting the ends is 1-cos(pi/N). So if you do a 1/16" circle in 1/5 of a second (just about F240) you have 200 servo cycles per circle. (1-cos(pi/200))*(1/8.) is about 1/64000 inch. Acceleration in this circle is about 123 in/s^2.
[18:09:22] <cradek> blink blink
[18:09:23] <jepler> er, whoops -- I was calculating for a 1/8" circle, not 1/16"
[18:09:49] <jepler> anyway I think the max distance from the circle to the chord is small, even at the "slow" 1ms servo cycle, but perhaps I went wrong on my math
[18:10:21] <SWPadnos> it should be even closer, since the motors accelerate in a square-law fashion
[18:10:25] <cradek> on the real system I bet it ends up pretty round, but undersized
[18:10:39] <SWPadnos> so the cusps are curved, which brings the actual path closer to the ideal circle
[18:11:24] <SWPadnos> (which isn't ideal if you're actually trying to make a 200-gon :) )
[18:11:56] <jepler> normally polygonization of circles inscribes the polygon in the circle. But you can choose different n-gons which minimize the chord-arc distance or the distance between them..
[18:12:01] <jepler> I worked out the math once but lost it
[18:12:04] <jepler> now, seriously .. lunch
[18:57:06] <[Harlock]> Anybody using IMC MDrive steppers?
[19:01:09] <lerneaen_hydra> http://cgi.fark.com/cgi/fark/youtube.pl?IDLink=3299360
[19:18:27] <Jymmm> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mesa/+bug/109784
[20:36:22] <SWPadnos> hmmm. it's getting cold here
[20:38:37] <maddash> then you need to be fired
[20:38:50] <maddash> (pun intended)
[20:38:50] <SWPadnos> I don't think I'll do that, thanks
[20:38:55] <SWPadnos> yes, I got it
[20:40:41] <maddash> my hypothalamus is quirky -- I don't shiver (or feel cold) as long as my hands are kept warm
[20:43:08] <SWPadnos> yeah - I tend to be OK as long as some part of my body is warm - I can almost stand in the freezing cold with a hand in hot water, and have it be OK
[20:43:09] <SWPadnos> (almost)
[20:43:55] <maddash> if I submit fixes to emc, is it better if everything is rolled into one patch, or if I submit individual, issue-specific patches that need to be applied in a certain order?
[20:44:21] <SWPadnos> individual patches are better, but it's best if the system is sane with each commit
[20:45:20] <SWPadnos> I mean individual by function, so if you need to change some interface to allow a new function, you should submit one patch (including all changed files) for the interface change, and another to add the new feature
[20:45:32] <SWPadnos> s/function/purpose/ (maybe ...)
[20:46:31] <SWPadnos> that assmes that the hypothetical interface change does not prevent EMC from working, without the new function ..
[20:46:41] <SWPadnos> (clear as a blizzard?)
[20:47:37] <maddash> yes, but unfortunately, moot as well
[20:47:53] <SWPadnos> excellent!
[20:48:03] <maddash> I totally forgot to save a different doc after each set of fixes
[20:48:12] <maddash> [sigh]
[20:48:15] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:48:29] <SWPadnos> what is the nature of the fixes in your new file?
[20:49:54] <maddash> a shitload of tings
[20:50:02] <maddash> incorrectly spelled var names,
[20:50:11] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[20:50:12] <maddash> some "TODO: Fixes,"
[20:50:30] <maddash> and a modification to limit switch rules during free mode
[20:50:36] <SWPadnos> bummer. it's best to keep cosmetic things separate from functional changes
[20:52:08] <SWPadnos> bummer. it's best to keep cosmetic things separate from functional changes
[20:52:11] <SWPadnos> (in case you missed that)
[20:52:19] <maddash> thanks
[20:52:37] <maddash> I'm rebuilding my changes, anyway
[20:52:44] <maddash> maybe it won't take too long
[20:52:47] <SWPadnos> ok
[20:53:11] <SWPadnos> are you one of the people running on an ARM board?
[20:53:15] <SWPadnos> or some other embedded thingie
[20:54:44] <maddash> that would be nice, if I could get it to compile onto an embedded arch
[20:54:54] <maddash> but sadly, no
[20:55:13] <SWPadnos> ok - must have been remembering someone else
[21:14:09] <skunkworks> doesn't sound very realtime like http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49134
[21:16:05] <skunkworks> quote LOL if I try to open internet explorer while mach is running a code it slows way way down to like one step at a time but still keeps going and don't miss steps just goes real slow and in chunks
[21:17:15] <SWPadnos> and never try to run WinAmp at the same time
[21:17:22] <anonimasu> heh
[21:17:26] <skunkworks> I really should play around with it.. I can be open minded..'
[21:17:36] <skunkworks> :)
[21:17:49] <anonimasu> -_- and _why_ would you want to run mp3's on your cnc machine?
[21:17:50] <cradek> on a laptop...
[21:17:52] <SWPadnos> I tried Mach 2 or 3 a while ago - not running a machine of course
[21:18:34] <SWPadnos> all time functions got screwed up, systemwide. things like double-click speed, pop-up delays, etc.
[21:18:45] <anonimasu> yep
[21:19:22] <skunkworks> I like to surf while cutting parts...
[21:19:49] <skunkworks> and talk to you goof balls.
[21:20:18] <SWPadnos> I never bothered to look at the output with a scope. I probably should some day
[21:21:03] <anonimasu> skunkworks: you have balls..
[21:21:45] <skunkworks> - the machine was running fine until my email client autochecked..
[21:22:04] <anonimasu> skunkworks: if I felt that I could leave the machine that much without watching I could aswell go away from the shop :)
[21:22:06] <skunkworks> ;)
[21:22:14] <anonimasu> and sit inside..
[21:22:15] <anonimasu> :p
[21:23:25] <skunkworks> I really don't think I have had emc make a bad part that wasn't my fault.
[21:24:25] <anonimasu> skunkworks: in 2 seconds you can machine a hell alot of clamps. :p
[21:24:45] <anonimasu> skunkworks: in 2 seconds you can machine a hell alot of clamps. :p
[21:25:24] <skunkworks> well - if I was machining a new part.. I wouldn't leave.
[21:25:25] <anonimasu> that's how I feel..
[21:26:03] <skunkworks> when a circuit board takes about an hour a side.. I have walked away.
[21:26:22] <anonimasu> oh..
[21:26:24] <skunkworks> as long as I have seen it run correctly once.
[21:26:41] <anonimasu> I were thinking about aluminium/iron/steel parts..
[21:26:55] <skunkworks> that too - as long as it has been proofed out.
[21:27:13] <skunkworks> that reminds me - I need to setup some video cameras ;)
[21:37:41] <Gamma-X> anonimasu
[21:37:42] <Gamma-X> he
[21:37:45] <Gamma-X> hey*(
[21:38:00] <anonimasu> hey
[21:38:27] <Gamma-X> whats up
[21:52:55] <Martzis> jepler: I noticed that that joystick axles have "dead" area near 127. 0-111 is working linearly. Then value changes to 127. After enough movement it changes to 143 ja continues linearly to 255. Do you know were this is defined?
[21:56:07] <anonimasu> not much
[21:56:08] <anonimasu> resting
[21:56:57] <jepler> Martzis: if this is in hal_input, I think you can get rid of this effect by using 'setp' to turn down the 'flat' of an absolute axis to 0. You'll also notice 'fuzz' in the parameter listing -- that controls how many counts the axis must change before the HAL pin is changed to a new value.
[21:57:37] <jepler> Martzis: for hal_joystick, I think this involves modify the source to use JSIOCSCORR (set correction) ioctls to change some values used inside the kernel.
[21:59:52] <jepler> you might also want to read the description I wrote of 'fuzz' and related parameters in the manpage -- since it was all fresh in my mind at that time. http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/man/man1/hal_input.1.html or 'man hal_input' in the terminal
[22:04:01] <Martzis> jepler: Thanks again. I'll test that.
[22:04:40] <jepler> (for hal_joystick you can also write a separate program that uses JSIOCSCORR and run it at startup or when starting emc; I think those corrections persist as long as the device remains connected to the PC, or until you reboot)
[22:06:32] <jepler> I can't seem to find where in the kernel the default 'fuzz' value is set for USB devices.
[22:07:18] <jepler> er, 'flat'
[22:08:47] <Martzis> Ok. I do not know if I can use hal_joystick. It worked until I changed encoder inputs as relative axes. It seems that joystick with relative axes is not detectid as a joystick.
[22:09:28] <Martzis> In linux
[22:09:35] <Martzis> In windows it is working
[22:09:38] <jepler> hmm and now I see for hal_input that the 'fuzz' processing takes place in the kernel so just setting the HAL parameter for 'fuzz' won't have the expected effect.
[22:18:36] <maddash_> can nc code execution fork?
[22:18:41] <maddash_> maddash_ is now known as maddash
[22:18:58] <SWPadnos> fork as in branch, or fork as in "spawn a new process"?
[22:19:14] <maddash> fork as in multithread
[22:19:17] <SWPadnos> no
[22:19:29] <maddash> eg, 'g1z*' whilst 'g2x8'
[22:19:41] <SWPadnos> ok, that's a loop, which is possible
[22:19:42] <maddash> not even if the two forks are in the same group?
[22:19:49] <SWPadnos> err - wait a minute
[22:20:12] <SWPadnos> G-code isn't executed like a program, it's interpreted by a single-threaded interpreter
[22:20:25] <SWPadnos> you can only have one motion happening at a time
[22:20:51] <SWPadnos> there are instructions (O-words) available to choose between differnet instructions (if, while, etc.)
[22:21:05] <SWPadnos> but only one motion will happen at a time
[22:22:04] <maddash> damn. ah well, it was worth a try.
[23:01:50] <Gamma-X> can I have 2 controllers on one machine?
[23:05:31] <cradek> controllers?
[23:05:40] <toastydeath> why would you want that
[23:05:56] <cradek> for many reasons - but what do you mean controllers
[23:06:01] <archivist> only sensible if they did different jobs
[23:06:19] <toastydeath> right but it's a safe bet that's not what is meant here
[23:06:28] <SWPadnos> so you can play two-player games, of course
[23:06:46] <archivist> Gamma-X, clarify please
[23:06:53] <cradek> * cradek 's eyes cross
[23:10:02] <toastydeath> i guess we will never know
[23:12:02] <archivist> * archivist checks his telepathy module, rattles it to see if its working, hmmm
[23:12:35] <maddash_> archivist: can you see this now?.........now?............now?
[23:12:54] <archivist> damn battery is flat!!
[23:13:22] <maddash_> haha, 'two-player games'
[23:14:31] <skunkworks> * skunkworks thinks maddash should go back to playing WOW ;)
[23:14:38] <gezar> i think what he meant was can he keep his existing control on his machine, and also have emc able to run it, I do not know if he is also thinking about simultanious operation.....
[23:15:05] <gezar> I play wow, cant help it if im a good warlock
[23:15:22] <archivist> I play irc
[23:15:44] <cradek> oh
[23:15:46] <gezar> wow is like irc with real time monster devistation
[23:15:50] <Gamma-X> i want 2 controllers so i can keep the anilam in workin order while i install an emc setup
[23:15:54] <skunkworks> * skunkworks saw gezar's wow screenshot..
[23:16:08] <SWPadnos> gezar wins a cookie
[23:16:10] <gezar> that was my herbage on my mule
[23:16:34] <cradek> gezar: that was amazing
[23:16:37] <gezar> the guild im in is only like 596th in the us as far as progression rank
[23:16:57] <skunkworks> Level Up!
[23:16:58] <SWPadnos> Gamma-X, yes, you can do that, if you use the same interface between the control and the machine (ie, analog servo control + encoders) - but you'll need to disconnect one of them
[23:17:12] <gezar> cradek : my ability to reach inside of gamma's brains and find the answer?
[23:17:15] <SWPadnos> you could use something like the MIL circular connectors
[23:17:46] <SWPadnos> but it's likely to be a lot more trouble than it's worth - you have to do the retrofit for EMC2, plus make sure you can still use the Anilam
[23:17:56] <SWPadnos> and conjure up some means of switching between them
[23:18:06] <gezar> omg, MIL connectors are expensive
[23:18:09] <cradek> I disagree with SWPadnos. you have estop, limits, and other safety considerations
[23:18:23] <cradek> you don't want to rig this up in any temporary way
[23:18:26] <SWPadnos> sure, those also have to be double-connected, and switched out along with the motors
[23:18:37] <SWPadnos> I just didn't list all the connections
[23:18:55] <cradek> if you can't commit to a full retrofit and the associated downtime (and I definitely understand) I suggest not doing anything to the machine but use it
[23:19:21] <maddash_> skunkworks: what makes you think I play WoW?
[23:19:40] <cradek> (I agree it would be a lot more work and expense)
[23:19:44] <gezar> gamma-x : im with cradek on this one, and on top of that, you need to learn how to use your machine, learn how to use it on your existing system
[23:20:02] <skunkworks> maddash_: just a guess...
[23:20:08] <Gamma-X> i am currently learnin how to use it
[23:20:11] <cradek> yeah, if it works, you can learn to cut some things first
[23:20:14] <Gamma-X> its simple to be honest
[23:20:16] <gezar> dont hate the player, hate the game
[23:20:37] <Gamma-X> but i want more features than what my 1984 controller does
[23:20:48] <SWPadnos> yes, MIL-C-xxx connectors are very expensive - I spent more on connectors and backshells than I did on my motors
[23:21:08] <gezar> SWPadnos: did you use the crimp style or solider?
[23:21:24] <SWPadnos> solder, sadly
[23:21:26] <gezar> the crimper I think is 70 bucks by its self
[23:21:37] <SWPadnos> but the crimp tool would have been several hundred (for the AMP one anyway)
[23:22:28] <gezar> solder is much better, the crimped water sealed stuff, if you miss pin one, its pure madness to remove one, yeah I know the little white, blue, yellow removal tools, but its hell, unless you use the right size wire shield, then its not so bad
[23:23:07] <gezar> and yeah, im thinking amphenol mil connectors zomg
[23:23:31] <SWPadnos> my connectors are type 24-7 - 16 pins each. Getting at the center pins with a soldering iron is a pain, and repairs are nearly impossible (once the outer ring of conductors is soldered in place)
[23:23:39] <SWPadnos> yep, MIL-C-5015 or something
[23:23:51] <maddash> FUCKING C+A+Bksp
[23:24:01] <Gamma-X> ?
[23:24:12] <maddash> MY PATCHES ARE GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!
[23:24:17] <SWPadnos> I think that was "oops, I killed my X server"
[23:24:29] <maddash> DIE DIE DIE DIE!
[23:24:46] <gezar> ouch
[23:24:57] <SWPadnos> hmmm. this seems to be a reoccurring problem :)
[23:25:07] <cradek> yeah haven't you done this a few times before?
[23:25:26] <SWPadnos> those were "sudo rm -rf / somedir" type problems before
[23:25:37] <maddash> omfg my robot code
[23:25:42] <maddash> it's all gone
[23:26:01] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos wonders how one can accidentally hit CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE
[23:26:09] <cradek> I've done it
[23:26:12] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[23:26:19] <cradek> rewrap-region in emacs is ctrl-alt-\
[23:26:26] <maddash> it's fucking 50F and I wore MITTENS while coding
[23:26:27] <SWPadnos> ah - ok
[23:26:29] <SWPadnos> heh
[23:26:36] <SWPadnos> I know that feeling
[23:27:22] <cradek> but, emacs autosaves, like any sane editor does
[23:27:43] <SWPadnos> yeah - I'd imagine that compiling would also require the data to be saved
[23:27:48] <maddash> I can't use emacs!
[23:28:27] <SWPadnos> me either
[23:28:33] <SWPadnos> nor vi
[23:28:38] <cradek> look! pterodactyl!
[23:28:43] <SWPadnos> ROC!
[23:28:55] <archivist> vi is wonderful
[23:28:56] <SWPadnos> or should I say "pterodactyls roc!"
[23:29:32] <maddash> I've been coding for 8 hours straight and intentionally did not test any of my code, so that at the end, when I compile at the end, everything'd click together and I'd get a massive high
[23:29:43] <SWPadnos> oh
[23:29:53] <SWPadnos> I guess then there's a risk of a massive low then ;)
[23:29:58] <Gamma-X> looks like u got a massive wah wah wahhhhh
[23:30:01] <maddash> massive emo
[23:30:01] <archivist> so there must be saves in between
[23:30:13] <maddash> my editor is geany
[23:30:20] <SWPadnos> geany?
[23:30:30] <cradek> beany?
[23:30:32] <archivist> never heard of it
[23:30:56] <maddash> the hot girl here (http://www.emmaalvarez.com/2007/12/top-best-50-ubuntu-opensource.html) showed it to me
[23:30:57] <SWPadnos> oh - it's up to version 0.12 - how stable
[23:31:28] <maddash> for future reference: add Option “DontZap” “yes” to Section “ServerFlags”
[23:31:43] <cradek> or save your work to disk
[23:32:02] <cradek> oh look, terminal emulation built into an editor
[23:32:12] <cradek> wonder if it has a movie player too
[23:32:20] <maddash> or maybe kill X while leaving the processes in :0 alive? what a dumb design
[23:32:26] <SWPadnos> using aalib, of course ;)
[23:32:54] <maddash> no, just suspend the processes (like ^Z)
[23:32:57] <gezar> may i recomend vim as a fun and friendly code editor
[23:33:03] <SWPadnos> no
[23:33:14] <cradek> meh, bbl
[23:33:21] <gezar> now i feel bad, afk cutting self
[23:33:37] <SWPadnos> bummer
[23:33:39] <SWPadnos> you should get help
[23:35:00] <maddash> when I'm done with this bot, I'm going to replace the non-lethal airgun with a 50MW laser and go after the guys in charge of X
[23:35:39] <maddash> brb, I have to go cry
[23:35:48] <SWPadnos> have fun!
[23:40:36] <Gamma-X> whats all ur opinions, is emc better than a industry standard controller like my crusader II? or is there flaws that may make it not as good in a few ways?
[23:41:35] <SWPadnos> my bet is that you can find ideosyncracies in either EMC2 or a commercial control
[23:41:42] <SWPadnos> especially one from 1989
[23:42:41] <anonimasu> Gamma-X: if you feel like your control works, use it.. if you feel it's too crappy replace it..
[23:42:51] <SWPadnos> it's likely that EMC2 on a newer computer will have better performance, but that may not matter since the machine itself is probably the limiting factor in either case (though it's probably close in the case of the 1989 '386)
[23:42:54] <anonimasu> but that's just what I think..
[23:43:06] <SWPadnos> yeah, if it ain't totally broke, don't take it apart :)
[23:43:22] <anonimasu> :)
[23:43:30] <anonimasu> yep, my point also
[23:43:43] <Gamma-X> ok
[23:43:45] <anonimasu> rather if it's good enough to do what you want dont bother.
[23:43:46] <Gamma-X> thanks
[23:43:47] <anonimasu> :P
[23:43:54] <anonimasu> emc is really nice :)
[23:43:56] <anonimasu> also
[23:44:05] <Gamma-X> thanks for rubbin it in! lol
[23:44:16] <LawrenceG> one of the best reasons to replace a control with emc is that with emc you have control over how it works.... dont like something... change the program
[23:44:39] <anonimasu> LawrenceG: that's a nice hobby
[23:45:12] <anonimasu> LawrenceG: making parts is another one :)
[23:45:27] <LawrenceG> yes... there are some problems with giving out the keys to the car
[23:47:02] <anonimasu> 5/Q Gamma-X