only one i cant get wrong is Y to Z I mess that up then im out of material
ease into it if material it tight
going to go pencil things down, ill be back after that and dinner
I could slot it. and use a screw to pull it together for more ridigity
cool gotta go for now can't camp online
03:44 < fsdafsd> taaaaaaaaaaaaada
logger_emc : bookmark
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-01-01.txt
" 04:15:24 <eric_U> how much does that 50lb bag weigh exactly? " - maybe right about 50lbs?
arg - Here I am lagging behind in Pacific time zone, when I could been home freezing my arse off in Mtn time zone...
happy new year
jmkasunich: celebrate a little for me, I'm going to bed
I think I'm gonna do the same
just got done testing my screw comp, and its pretty good
within 0.0003 of nominal everywhere, and less than 0.0004 lash everywhere - less than 0.002 lash most of the travel
originally I had about 0.007 of lash
oh that's on your acme?
SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
if stepgen.enabled is set from 1 to 0 while stepgen.vel_cmd>0 or stepgen.pos_fb < stepgen.pos_cmd, will stepgen immediately halt step generation, or will it ramp down its current velocity to 0?
not to sound like a broken record, but stepgen could use one improvement
good luck with that...
nothing just babbling
there's no reason why stepgen can't do both position and velocity modes
maddash: so fix it.
'fix it'? there's nothing borked about it
mad13:59 < maddash> not to sound like a broken record, but stepgen could use one improvement
<maddash> there's no reason why stepgen can't do both position and velocity modes
<the fine manual>This component provides software based generation of step pulses in response to position or velocity commands. In position mode, it has a built in pre-tuned position loop, so PID tuning is not required. In velocity mode, it drives a motor at the commanded speed, while obeying velocity and acceleration limits.
heh, he does jump in and whine!!
wow - you guys go to bed late - and are up early.
its almost 10 am
I thought that was early..
only 12:45 or so for me (up before 9 though, which isn't my preference)
considering that I have to go back to work tomorrow, I'm trying to get onto a normal schedule
I took tomorrow off also - best buy is delivering the stove.
I figured it was a good enough excuse to take the day off.
now all we have to wait for the fridge to die...
there should be an 'is' in that sentence
so the washer, dryer, furnace, AC, dishwasher, garbage disposal, and water heater are all new? :)
(not to mention septic, but I'll assume you're connected to town utilities)
actually - yes.
oh, lucky you then :)
:) furnace is new - dish washer was bought when we moved in. and the stove is now new.
actually - the outside central air unit is pretty old. so there is that.
well my order from enco should be shipped tomorow
im excited! yay
what are you getting?
some general tools
vfd from enco?
nah thats comin from drives warehouse
RP605-4076 1"IND W/22PC PT KIT MODEL 605-4070 1 $11.59 $11.59
240-0326 1/2"X7/8"-1 3/4" PRECISION PARALLELS,8PR. 1 $49.49 $49.49
505-6544 1/2-13 STUD 5/8X1 IMPORTED CL.SET HOLDER 1 $24.95 $24.95
RP890-9934 0.030IND W/UNIV HLDR TRAVEL IND MAG HLDR SET 1 $31.95 $31.95
240-0131 827A SINGLE END STARRETT EDGE FINDERS 1 $13.95 $13.95
thats comin from enco and my vise aswell
425-7250 5" JAW WIDTH 5" VISE & LOCKDOWN JAWS 1 $74.95 $74.95
how much was the hitachi?
3 hp constant torque
where is everyone lol
is it possible to run a 3 phase motor only on 2 without a phase converter and only 220?
what you're describing is a phase converter. the problem is starting the motor. there are several tricks to getting it started
only if you start it turning first(not recomended)
so how would I start the motor for testing purposes... lol
if you're thinking about doing this with your mill spindle, stop thinking that
why not dissconect the motor legs and test the control alone
* archivist sides with cradek, dont do that to your motor Gamma-X
thats if nothing else is three phase
als i got my control workin
ya I herd
it works off a regular 110 line, it had a cord already lol
the servo power supply is 110?
its so old lol i want a new control so badly but i think i should jsut leave it.
lol i know
mine has a huge 240v 3 phase supply
what kind of mill u got?
I got a 1 phase transformer to replace it - it's 120lb
just a bridgeport series 1
i almost bought a bridgeport but i dont trust its rigidness
maybe it's overbuilt, I don't know
well it cuts nice for me
does the crusader support spindle control?
speed control? no
on off idk yet lol
I thought I saw in a pic that it has a varispeed head
bridgeport has been around for ever
so the motor control will be fwd/rev/off
when it's in low gear the motor has to turn backward
i dont beleive so
doesn't have a low gear?
it has 2 gears
but i dont think it will go in reverse
the control might do it for you, the motor goes the other way
i need to buy an air solenoid for the power brake
on mine I have to tell it which way when starting it every time
it's a "feature"
it takes both hands to start, you have to hold the knob to "forward" with one hand and push start with the other
dead starter switch in the motor?
you cant start the spindle in the program cradek
even when running a program, it stops and prompts you to do it
you need emc
and it will not perform any feed move unless it's running
how does it know the spindle is running?
well the control runs it, you just have to tell it when to start
the control can turn it off for instance
my index you could run either way
cradek: emc2 emc2 emc2
What would mux2 be used for? I see it has a sel bit a float out and two floats in...
it selects between the two inputs
what would be an example of it's use?
for example, on the mazak, the spindle drive's speed reference comes either from EMC (normal operation, S word speed control) or from a PID block (spindle orient during a toolchange)
is it just a switch for two floats?
(actually the mazak uses a mux4, because it also has logic to handle low gear and high gear
yep, a selector switch
ok that makes sense
(mux is short for multiplexor - something that takes many inputs and generates one output)
what is the selector value
for selecting each input
its boolean, if false (0), then in0 -> out, if true (1), then in1 -> out
ok on mux4 sel0 is for in0 and in1?
sel0 and sel1 make a two bit pattern
hmm the documentation is a bit terse isn't it..
00 -> in0, 01 -> in1, 10 -> in2, 11 -> in3
not that it matters for values <10
and >= 0
<jmkasunich> (mux is short for multiplexor - something that takes many inputs and generates one output)
throw that in the doc,s
if both inputs to or2 are on is the output on or off?
BigJohnT: just like this OR gate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OR_gate
BigJohnT: sorry, many of these components were designed by an electrical engineer, who assumed that everybody is an electrical engineer
jmkasunich: well we know what happens when you assume LOL
how can we expand the doc a bit?
jepler just tweaked it a little
for mux2, mux4 I tried adding more words
the new documentation is already online: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/man/man9/mux2.9.html http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/man/man9/mux4.9.html
looking at it now
hal components created by comp have a certain amount of "automatic" documentation, but it can be quite sparse unless the author adds words
I also improved these: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/man/man9/and2.9.html http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/man/man9/or2.9.html http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/man/man9/xor2.9.html
jepler: how did you do that so fast? You must have the secret decoder ring...
he's really a bot
scripts/emc has stopped working
RTAPI: ERROR: failed to map shmem
HAL: ERROR: could not open shared memory
halcmd: hal_init() failed: -9
NOTE: 'rtapi' kernel module must be loaded
and the /dev/rt* all exist...
I followed http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting
/dev/RTAI_SHM didn't exist, and after I mknodded, it existed.
but starting up scripts/realtime deletes it!
do you have that module?
argh I can run the RTAI testsuites fine
can NO ONE figure out what is happening?
maddash: different rtai versions have different, partial implementations of udev. for the specific kernel and ubuntu versions we support, we provide additional udev scripts to make everything work right (e.g., debian/extras-Ubuntu-6.06/etc/udev/rules.d which causes /dev/rtai_shm and /dev/rtf* to be created)
maddash: but when you use a different distro or rtai version, you unfortunately have to sort that out yourself
dont worry, you can run another wm besides gnome and make it a usable machine controller os
maddash: the only portion of emc that runs setuid root is emc_module_helper, and it does not call 'unlink', so emc calling unlink() can't be what is removing /dev/RTAI_SHM on your system (but it could be for instance udev doing it when a module is removed)
jepler, wtf? I've already scrapped my kernel and RTAI 3.5 twice, just so that I could follow the Etch RTAI instructions on the wiki
just use the livecd installer?
if RTAI is loaded into the kernel, then /dev/RTAI_SHM should be created, right?
at least according to cradek @ http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emcdevel/2006-06-02.txt
so if there is no /dev/RTAI_SHM after rebooting, and dmesg|less has nothing pertaining to RTAI, and if I can somehow run /usr/realtime/testsuite/kern/latency/run as normal user, then RTAI is fubared
okay, so when scripts/realtime start is run, RTAI_SHM automagically appears
am I supposed to have /dev/rtf*, or /dev/rtf/*? there's two different versions on the wiki
there are two mknod lines, and I believe you need both
(on the troubleshooting page, before you run the RTAI latency test)
that didn't do it
all I know is that on my box (using the EMC team's supplied kernel and RTAI), I can follow those instructions to the letter and they always work
'scripts/emc configs/stepper/stepper_inch.ini' gave the error, but the same command as root worked
wtf? I have to run emc2 as root now?
you probably have something in your kernel or rtai build with borked permissions
jmkasunich, agreed, but I made the unfortunate error of 'aptitude upgrade' AGAIN.
* maddash goes cry
different versions of rtai are differently broken concerning udev
you always have to screw with it
some create /dev/rtai_shm (or, irritatingly, /dev/RTAI_SHM) automatically, but not /dev/rtf*
and some versions have used /dev/rtf* and others /dev/rtf/*
I wish I had some small tools (and a fast spindle)
popeil's home dentistry kit: 150Krpm water cooled spindle with .030 dia carbide ball cutters
jmkasunich: need to make a pcb?
not so much need to, as want to try some fine work now that the lash comp is in
I've been wanting to try a HF air spindle with 1/8" collet
they're like $20 so even if they don't last forever, who cares
50krpm or something like that
you have enough air?
more air would be nice
I think I do
maybe only barely
I thought I bought a big enough compressor to drive a die grinder, but I didn't
[19:25:29] <cradek> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47869
$10, not $20
how big is your compressor?
nice page: http://www.truetex.com/aircompressors.htm
120psi 7? cfm
120 or 240V?
so its most likely about 1 HP
that should be good for 4-6 CFM
if it were warmer I'd go look at it
its in the barn?
the web says it might be 6.5
the web as in manufacturer's (usually inflated) specs, or something real
but it could probably keep up at 2
my quick calcs are based on info from that webpage, which is specifically about how manufacturers lie
I trust the math
I wonder how much HF lies about the 2cfm requirement
makers of tools like impact wrenchs assume an absurdly low duty cycle to make the requirement look lower (they publish the average, not the peak)
dunno if die grinders do the same
2cfm for the first 20 minutes, 4 afterward
but 2 CFM = ~ 1/2 HP
assuming its at all efficient
if I know the size in gallons, and time how long it takes to pump from 0 to 100psi, that would tell me I think
yep - also mentioned on that webpage
I'll go time it :-)
heh, the guy who wrote that page is one of us - software geek with a machine shop
meh, i need a spindle
10K/10IPM for pcb with the 30d conicals is a bit rough, heh
cradek: you think runout is okay on those things?
shit i wouldnt even have to take my ER spindle off
could prob just attach that to the vertical tslot on the front of the spindle assembly
renesis: no idea
air grinders require oil, some of them exhause through the front, some the rear, but still some of the oil drips out the front so you want to watch that
or side i guess, lose too much Y and it already sucks at Y
jmkasunich: motor is marked 1.5HP continuous duty, 8 gal, 50 seconds 0->100 psi
gezar: you can clean off the pcb afterwards
hf tools may list solid specs, however, they are selling a tool modeled after a quality counterpart,
hehe, mine is always drippin mineral oil on my pcbcuz thats what i use for the Al parts i do with the same machine
[19:47:32] <jmkasunich> http://www.truetex.com/aircompressors.htm
has the math
HF is shit, but theyll take care of you
if you break their shit, they give you new shit no complaining
I wanna go to hf and get one of their wood tool box knock offs
thats because they know its shit
I can't believe compressor and motor vendors get away with inflated claims, look at what happened to dell on monitors
my gf got a little electric compressor with like a 3 gallon tank
it died blowing up the air mattress =(
i dunno if she got a new one from hf yet
thats bound to happen when your not using a rotary compressor or more than 1 piston
someone has been suing companies that have "made in USA" on their products
that place I work for insists upon buying all their tools from hf, it makes me want to vomit
jmkasunich:Is it possible to make hal_joystick to support two joysticks?
funniest thing I saw in 07 was a lathe with this printed on it "chart was made in the USA" it was the speed chart
aybe the good stuff grew legs
Martzis: I believe that would require code changes
als it probably did, but still, their tools arnt designed for an industrial atomosphere
well, you guys excited about 08?
the year of infinity
china for ya sad thing is the materials there just shody workmenship
gezar: not really
jmkasunich: according to his math it's giving 8.7 cfm
in a world full of people, someone's flying as we speak
thats over the entire 0-100 range, right?
probably drops off a bit if you were to measure the time from 80 to 100
but still, sounds like plenty for that grinder
what if we took it rotated it 45 and stuck some fantastic plastic on it ?
I don't see a cfm written on it, only hp/gal etc
lowes or home depot sells a really nice die grinder thats got a ton of power, I think its 35 bucks or so, husky is the brand on it
it has a red rubber grip
dont forget to look at belt sanders
they are handy as fuck to have
is there a good one out there thats cheap?
I see the manuf says 6.5cfm delivered @100psi
for what duity cycle?
the motor says continuous
my only experience with comprssors is my little 220 single phase job, we built it a long time ago, and its been darn nice
we have a ginne or someething on it, so when if I need all it can offer, it runs to pressure, then vents to air to drop the load off the motor
it still overloads and shuts down after 30minutes or so if im bead blasting
i think its a 5hp head with a 1 1/2 hp motor
something retarded like that
jmkasunich: hf also has a elec spindle cutout tool 20k for around $20
like a roto-zip?
ya little bigger though
I put three inch cut off wheels on mine
is hf open today?
i want to go get that box
comes with two collets
gezar: how mutch for the box?
spanish metallica is a force to be herd
als they have 2 versions, one is 60 the other is 90
they are gerstner knockoffs
all green felt lined nice little gadget boxes
60 and 90
ill find a link
Nanowar - Entra L' Uomo Di Sabbia.mp3
[20:12:21] <gezar> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94538
thats the 90 buck one, the other is 60
the gerstener one like it is close to 900
I've been drullin for years
my brother told me this "for the cost of the good one, I could buy all the wood and build 5 of them"
time and pressure for some of us makes us turn coal into diamonds, some just have the money to get a diamond, we just have lots of coal
heh, yeah that sounds better
ive always thought that if I had a million bucks, I could build a nice shop
you don't need a million
yeah, building all that stuff adds up super quick
50K for the shop and live on the rest
50k would be depost on the first machine just so they can cast the bed
a nice big toolmex lathe with man, tuff choice here, fagor, fanuc, or seimens control
you want to play with the big boyz do ya
ive been a big boy its fun stuff
me to but you do it a lot cheaper
see, ide have to have a big surface grinder, centerless and a center grinder
and a few gear hobbs
lots of cheap second hand around
that stuff is out there and being scraped every day
yeah i know i work for a new/used machiner dealer
gezar: That one is really poor quality, the display looks cheap and falling apart in spots.
jymmmmmmmm: the box?
gezar: the link you pasted
yeah, I think your right, the boxes arnt pulled out in a very good line are they
I dont know, i just need a little trinket box of some sort
gezar: and it is not as big as it appears in the photo as well.
I cant keep ploping electronics into my tool box though
gezar: I use somethig like this http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?&langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=15697&catalogId=10051&cmArea=SEARCH
i have 3 of those full
jmkasunich: I got two joystick working by defining different prefixes for them: loadusr hal_joystick -d /dev/input/js0 -p joystick.0 loadusr hal_joystick -d /dev/input/js1 -p joystick.1
or this http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?&langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=15697&catalogId=10051&cmArea=SEARCH
its been ages since I messed with that - I forgot it was user space and you can run as many copies of it as you want
happy new year to all
what setting on a vfd will make it run the motor at the regular phase?
jmkasunich: I still need to do small change to the code. I need support for 32 buttons. Should it be enough if I change the max buttons and compile the code again?
like so its not variable just a normal static frequency
I think so, lemme take a look
32 buttons for each joystick?
thats quite a joystick
what jmkasunich said
[20:35:17] <Martzis> http://martzis.wippiespace.com/images/album/USB%20HID%20input%20device/
Perhaps pictures explain my need :)
its not a joystick, it just uses the js interface?
UV erasable prom?
it's a HID device
It is old UV erasable PIC microcontroller
used for generic I/O?
obviously not realtime stuff
nice trick using shift registers for many inputs on a couple pic pins
I had useless one time programmable versions of this microcontroller
Martzis: Instead of going thru all that troubles, why not use one of these instead --> http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
I wanted to get some use for them
Martzis: I don't see any obvious issues with changing MAX_BUTTONS
[20:39:55] <renesis> http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1199219406332.jpg
- reportError("linear move on line %d would exceed limits",
in fact, I think it only costs 4 bytes of shared memory per unused MAX_BUTTON item, so I'm tempted to up it to 32 and commit to CVS
Jymmm: That ipac look nice
Martzis: there is a USB variant too
though, it just might be a ps/2 to usb adapter for all I know.
its keyboard emulation
Martzis: did you look at "hal_input.py"?
for emulators, they have a ball thats for mouse input
and the new analog hall effect joystick might be mouse (prob mouse)
I don't know all the details (jepler wrote it), but I think its a more generic version of joystick, that works with any HID device
i built a stick off it
jmkasunich: I thested hal_input also
its a keyboard emulator
itll do usb and ps/2, but its keyboard output
it behaves a little strangely
its interface is text output to notepad (or any text field)
hehe, its amusing to program, awesome for emulators, but its not a mousing device
again, im assuming you mean the ultimarc ipac
who called me at 7a today
cradek did u do a emc convert?
jmkasunich did u?
I have a shoptask 3-in-1 that I just got working with EMC
im thinkin about how hard it would be to convert myne to emc
i now realize what I have.
are there any bugs in emc that would cause the software not to be a proffesional used utility?
its gpl, dont use for anything ever at all!
says so kinda right there in the license
Gamma-X: you should call supermax and get schmatics
Gamma-X: some commercial users talked about reliability on the emc-users list recently. you could go read that in the archives
cradek got a link?
[20:51:42] <ALS> http://www.mail-archive.com/emc-users%40lists.sourceforge.net/
Martzis: can you explain what strange behavior you saw from hal_input?
WE DONT NEED YOUR WAR
Gamma-X: I've visited stuart's shop to see this machine he's talking about: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/4398
jepler: names of axes and buttons were not numbers
gamma-x I dont think your servo drives accept step/direction so you would have to have some sort of method for doing that,
Martzis: yes that's the expected behavior -- linux reports the name of each button or key to hal_input, and hal_input uses those names.
the newer cards from that same company I think do accept step/direction but I could be wrong
gezar: step/dir is only one way to drive a machine, emc supports real analog servo control
the more servo's the marrier
jepler: Do you know if those definitions can be changed?
cradek yeah I know, but wouldnt he need a controler card to go with +/-10v?
yes he would have to get a card that has the analog out to run the amps and read the encoders
[20:59:08] <Unit41> http://nehe.gamedev.net/data/articles/article.asp?article=03
emc supports at least 4 of these kinds of cards
cradek : yeah, I was jut trying to keep it simple for him
using step/dir doesn't make simpler, it just makes it work less well
yeah, thats true
Martzis: It is supposed to come from the USB HID "USAGE" data but I am not an expert..
My device is using Generic Desktop USAGE PAGE
and Joystick (USAGE) and Buttons (USAGE PAGE) below that
cradek : do you use a control card these days?
Martzis: so the names of the buttons and such where named odd... but worked?
cradek : like a servo-to-go card I guess would be an example
yes I use something like that (pluto) on my little servo lathe
on my small mill I use plain step/dir steppers
skunkworks: It worked, but it was quite hard to say which pin is which input
oh, a friend of mine who I dont talk to much, was telling me about how he blew out some rutex drivers this past year, something about reverse current, and needing to have resistors in line, could someone explain this a bit more to me?
maybe he meant breaking resistors but I do not know
he said that say the drive was shut down but the machine was still moving that the servos would generate a current and send it back into the drive causing them to fail
Martzis: looks like hidinput_configure_usage in drivers/usb/input/hid-input.c is where the mapping from the USB HID descriptor to the input button names is done
I configured hal_input back in use
how much thrust can a non-angular-contact ball bearing handle?
(or is that like "how long is a stick?")
btn-a has 2 component pins and btn-b has 14
there are btn-b and other inputs beginning with btn-b...
Those ale are listed under btn-b
can you use http://pastebin.ca
to show me the 'halcmd show pin' output?
gezar: talking to JonE - rutex drives are not designed very well. (but remember jone produces his own drives)
jon makes drivers?
Thanks jepler.. I was searching for the link. (could not navagate thru the wiki fast enough)
it is the bot's pleasure to serve
[21:20:50] <skunkworks> http://www.pico-systems.com/motion.html
cradek: kinda - depends on the bearing clearances and such
you will develop angular contact when you thrust load it - the question is what angle
and how much does that magnify the load
for reference, ISTR from reading motor catalogs (at work) that motor shafts can handle axisl loads about half that of the rated radial load
I think McMaster may also list both axial and radial load caps on their bearings
ah that's very useful
so much more than none, but much less than the radial load
or use http://pastebin.com
if pastebin.ca doesn't load (it doesn't for me today)
narrows it down a lot
ISTR you said something about having some large bearings?
[21:26:47] <Martzis> http://pastebin.com/m24cdfdf3
I have some large and some small
I'm tempted to try making something like this: http://www.hobbycnc.hu/CNC/Otletek/Otletek.htm
I think those nut ideas are very interesting
low backlash, rolling friction only, but unlike ballscrews, homebrewable
well, somewhat homebrewable
ballscrews aren't because they need to be hard (and ideally ground)
hmm, that is interesting
they show screw and "nuts" (rollers) with the same pitch but different diameters
oh, they have to be different diameters, or the motions cancel out
the screw pitch is not the same as the screw lead either
no the motion doesn't cancel
I had to try it, it's not obvious to me
Martzis: it appears to be using the names given to buttons starting with BTN_JOYSTICK and preceeding upwards ..
I can't figure out why there is input.0.297 and .313 though
cradek: you mean the version with three rollers on their own bearings?
well something like it
[21:38:36] <cradek> http://www.hobbycnc.hu/CNC/Otletek/osszeallitas.jpg
it seems to me that if roller and screw are the same diameter, it doesn't matter what shape it is (threads, splines, blobs), they'd just roll on each other
in that jpg, the nut screws appear to be 2x the dia of the lead screw
gezar: yes, I know
I think the lead is twice the pitch
cradek: cant read it
the leads add, not cancel
oh, the rollers are left handed?
get two bolts, roll them together
Martzis: I looked at the source for hal_input and it looks like more than a quick change to make it use numbers instead of names.
just did (studs, easier)
and you are right
jepler: That sounds great!
he said "more than a quick change"
IOW, not easy
Martzis: so maybe you should just stick with hal_joystick for now if it serves you better .. but hal_joystick has certain problems (it does not use 'hal_ready()' so you have to include 'sleep's in your halcmd file and hope that it has create all its pins by the time the hal file continues)
ok, little misunderstood
(and it can't easily be modified to do that because of the way the linux joystick layer reports buttons and axes)
yes, sorry -- not easy
I tried one obvious thing but it didn't work
cradek: so the challenge is to preload the rollers against the shaft (or at least provide for precise positioning)
or make it somehow springy
hence preload ;-)
the good part is it shouldn't wear much since it's just rolling friction
its gonna need lots of small bearings
Martzis: ok, this uses numbers instead of names, but the numbers are still a bit arbitrary (not starting at 0 or 1) .. http://pastebin.com/m14ea6ec8
I have to go, bbl
cradek: is this just for fun, or do you have a machine/size/load in mind?
it would just be for fun
it's possible I would use it for max's Z
it currently has a regular bronze nut and I depend on gravity to take out the backlash, but that's useless when cutting any metal
mcmaster has ball thrust bearings for $1.62 each, 1/8" shaft, 7/16" OD (nylon cage with balls, and two hardened washers)
(but, it's probably too heavy to use one of these plastic nuts)
you could use 1/8 dowel pins and 1/8" reamed holes in the rollers for the radial load, and the balls would take the thrust load
the bearings are rated 21 lbs thrust, and three would be loaded at any one time
wonder if I could put an OI bronze bushing on an arbor and thread it
catalog page 1092, item number 6655K11 if you want to see
then run it on a dowel pin
those bushings may not be oversize enough for a dowel pin
probably be more concentric
you'd rely on the bushing for thrust and radial load?
I'd go for some kind of rolling element for the thrust(
what about 2 angular contacts, with the side screws having turned down ends to fit into the thrust bearings, then position the outer races with say a pocketd screw that you can adjust in and out?
thats a bad place for a yeah, my timming was off cradek, and jmkasunich im sorry
thrust bearings would definitely be better
does what I tried to say make sense?
1/8" shaft dia, 1/4" OD, 3/8" long bronze bearings are $0.64
renesis is now known as lf411acn
jmkasunich: even the hardware store has them I think
I wonder if I have one (to see if it fits on a dowel)
that would eleminate the need for any bearings at all, as a test bed
lf411acn is now known as renesis
at what point are the revolving screws supposed to turn, or do they always rotate with the lead screw?
cradek: bearings http://www.vxb.com/
or is it just a way to make a large backlash free nut?
the mcmaster bronze bearings are +0.001 to +0.002 on ID, and +0.002 to +0.003 in OD
yeah I have a 3/8 ID and 3/8 dowel and they fit easily
not sloppy but definitely not close fit either
the problem with just using the bushing as the roller is the ratio between friction at the screw and friction at the thrust load area
you want much more friction between screw and roller than between roller and frame
either the friction radius needs to be much smaller than the roller radius (reduce lever arm) or the coefficent of friction needs to be lower (rolling elements)
1/8" dowels, 1/4" OD bushings pressed into a 1/4" hole in the center of a 1/2" roller
the rollers don't need to be nearly as long as in those photos I don't think
if you have say a 1/4-20 screw and 1/2-20 rollers, I bet 3/8" long rollers would be plenty strong
one of the links on that page is to a commercial vendor of ballscrew substitutes made with this scheme
the load capacity is much higher than ballscrews because of the much larger contact area
start with 1/2" steel rod, drill 3/16, bore to 0.245 to be concentric, ream to 0.250 to get the diameter the easy way, then thread the OD and part off
where do you guys normally get your ball screws? i've been looking for someplace to machine the ends, supply the ballnut preloaded, with an angular contact bearing (mounting block) at a certain length. www.misumiusa.com seems to offer it, but haven't found any other places. mcmaster doesn't do any machining or preloading
about $15 in parts would give you the rolling element version - 6 ball thrust bearings at $1.61, and 3 sleeve bearings at $0.64
klick0: anybody that sells them premachine wants far more money than I would want to pay
when the time comes, I'm gonna probably go mcmaster, unless I find some surplus or another cheaper source
well i cna't machine them, so what options do i have
I can't machine them either, but I'll figure something out
I'm too fscking cheap
yea, well misumiusa.com prices are steep, but i'm gettting used to the idea that i'm going to have to spend that much
machined ends for a common machine _might_ be available for a few hundred $
custom machined ends I don't even want to ask
klick0: no lathe
well for a 20mm ballscrew, premachined at 350mm long i believe was around $500
[22:07:10] <jmkasunich> http://www.roton.com/Mating_Components.aspx?partnumber=19194&#PN
i need to verify the preloaded part, but they say accuract of upto 0.00... well actually i don't remember, but within what i wanted
5/8" x 0.200" ballscrew, $12.46 per foot, plus $35 per nut
yea, i've heard horrible things about roton
thats more my budget
as far as accuracy though, supposedly there can be major issues
I understand that everybody has different needs and budgets - just saying that I don't know anything about your class of parts, cause I don't shop on that side of the tracks ;-)
i currently have a very basic hobbycnc.com tyupe design that i've upgraded over the years, re-designed sections at a time, but am now wanting to step upto something high quality
yea, my budget is anywhere from $5k to about $7k
when you say quality regarding ballscrews, what do you mean?
lead accuracy? emc can calibrate out that
i've ordere about $1000 worth of aluminum extrusions, which i should get any day, to start pieceing sections toghet
you mean backlash?
lash is lash - difference between going one way and going the other
lead accuracy is when your 0.200" per turn screw is actually 0.20013 per turn
yes i understand what backlash is, lead... ohhhhhhhh, yea, i see where you're going
and 0.20017 at the the other end
yea, i realize emc can get rid of that
it can get rid of lash too, but only when cutting forces are less than friction
right, which means it can't get rid of it when i need it
(nothing can keep the tool from moving the table around)
yea, i'm ready to pay for ballscrews, just been trying to find the right ones..
sorry, wrong window
damn right it is!
I would look for preloadable ball nuts. (or buy cheap ball screws and 2 nuts per lead)
oh i am
my plan down the road is cheap screws and two nuts
homeshopcnc.com has preloaded nuts, but no mounting block, and only one type of ballscrew
love them belleville washers ;-)
jmkasunich: are you going to put something flexable between them that you can preload (like belvel springs or such?)
* skunkworks reads up....
that just seems odd. I guess I had only heard the name - not read it.
3/4" ID, 1-1/2" OD, 0.045 thick, 0.093 free height, 267 lbs when compressed by 0.024" - $6 for a pack of 12 at mcmaster
hard to beat that
(they have dozens of different sizes and loads)
mcmaster is my online design guide
with emc then you can map out the inconsistancies of the rolled ball screw.
as interesting as les's ball screw comp.. I think mapping it software is nicer.. :)
[22:23:59] <skunkworks> http://lmwatts.com/cnc.html
the hard part is measuring the error
yah - but scales are getting really cheap for marginal accuracy.
for what level of really cheap
I bet you could even automate it with hal and o words..
to make a table
does a preloaded ballnut mean that there are basically 2 ballnuts with a spring/force generating device between them? or does it mean that the ballnut's balls are loaded under some type of pressure? or neither and please explain? :)
that the balls are fitted to exert a pre determinded amount of pressure
yea, thats what i thought, ok thanks
where the screw and nut are machined to accpet a .071 dia ball, they put in .0713 and .0714 and .0711 balls
In AXIS if you load a file that exceeds the soft limits you get an error when trying to run "Program exceeds machine limits" if you press run anyway you get the errror linear move on line N would exceed limits. So what's the reasoning behind the first error message?
Sounds like a bug to me...
to tell you before you start it of course
to tell me what that it won't run even if I tell it to?
that's just not right
oh do you mean why are you allowed to run anyway? (that's not what you asked)
if I tell it to run I just get another error...
what's the point
the first message can be wrong in some obscure cases, like when you use tool offsets near the limits of your machine
don't have any tool offsets
it's possible you may know something about the program that AXIS doesn't
OK, then AXIS is right in your case, so don't "run anyway"
why do I have the option if it is not possible
like I just said, it can be wrong in some obscure cases
what obscure cases
16:41:59 < cradek> the first message can be wrong in some obscure cases, like when you use tool offsets near the limits of your machine
I don't use tool offsets
BigJohnT, let's take it from the top
when you load the G-code into AXIS, it sees a move that exceeds the soft limits
actually no warning until I try and run it
it does not disable the run button, because some people use tool offsets, which may cause errors in its "interpretation" of the g-code, and it has no way of knowing if you're one of the users who uses offsets
when I press the run button I get a choice
"run anyway" and "cancel"
so it can't be sure that the program is wrong, and it expects you to know
sure, that's because it isn't positive that there's a problem
If I pick "run anyway" it still won't run
you need to know
I know - I'm getting to that
(checking some factoids - one sec :) )
one question - what's the move that errors out?
a move that moves to X-1 just a sec
and what are your X limits?
(0 to something, I'm betting)
this move X-1 Y0 following a G0 X0.2500
when you execute the program, EMC will chug along until it encounters a move that would go out of bounds
MIN_LIMIT = -0.6
once it interprets that line (which could be long before it gets executed), the machine will stop
also, -1 is < -0.6 :)
if you change that line to X-0.5 Y0, EMC won't stop there
it may stop somewhere else though
why do I have the choice to "run anyway" if it won't do it?
because AXIS is giving you the choice, and it doesn't know if the program will actually run
due to some types of offsetting, and also probing moves
why won't it run when I select "run anyway"
it does run, up to the point where the interpreter sees the command that would move it out of bounds
at that point, the EMC interpreter (which correctly deals with offsets) knows the program will fail, and stops execution
you need to understand that there are several processes at work here, and they're not tightly coupled together
I can see that
I just entered a program with one line g0 x-1
so AXIS runs its interpreter (to generate the preview, among other things)
and I just get the second error
seems like if the move is totally out of the soft limits then no preview and no first error
does Axis allow you to home an axis to a certain value, which isnt' "home" but i just want to set X to 1.0 when i feel like it, can I do that? cause i get size of having to move everythign around to get Z down to zero to home it, when i know of another point that I can set it to 1.0 instead
I think thatt's called touch-off - in the menus or right-click of the axis readout
klick0, axis has a touch off function
If I have just G0 X-1 in a program I get no preview
fuck axis homing
like, i like it 90% of the time
ok cool, i'll look for that thanks
yeah, there's a button called touch off or you can press the home button
but really, fuck the axis homing button
on the keyboard
end button okay
home button, you just wasted a machine cycle
end button, k
whole setup trashed
no confirmation dialog
it just happens
that setup sucks..
and its directly adjacent to the buttons (kb and gui) that you use to touch off
homing should still retain the offsets..
like, i like axis
but that particular thing is straight retarded
renesis: do you loose offsets when you home?
well it offsets them
home button sets all axises to 0.0 ? or it moves the machine?
and then you cant move past limits
to reset home
and overide limits doesnt seem to overide limits
ok, if you use touch off you don't get any errors if you go outside of the soft limits
klick0, I'm not completely sure but I think it depends on your machine setup
you have to shutdown the controller and retsart
touch off is workspace offset
ok, just curious, i can do that with the other buttons, i'll press it later when i'm downstairs just to see thoguh :)
although its implimented a bit weight right now
because touchoff used to be only g54
but now itll do all of them
the heidenhain I have always works in offsets..
IIRC it's g92 now
but i cant clearly figure out which control is for the offset editing
which is for offset display
to leave g54 for tool length offsets
g92 is workspace offsets
its rs274, not emc
and yeah, i just use g92 now
because the axis offset system went from eccentric, too completely wtf
like, i get that theyre implimenting the feature so its prob kinda raw, but like instead of making anything easier, it made it 5x harder
try never to use g92 if at all possible..
anonimasu: there is a bug in axis that gives you the option to "run anyway" but won't allow it anyway!
it was better when it was just g54, and non ambiguous in its control, as limited as that was
renesis, could you formulate a clear description of what AXIS does, and what you'd wnat/expect it to do, and email it to the developers list?
BigJohnT, that is not a bug in AXIS!
but i mean serious, its a fucking machine tool controller
ok, it's an undocumented feature
no, it's well documented
i KNOW its not hard to make an 'OKAY?' dialog before resetting home axis
er, axis home
I never finished telling you how many things are looking at your (errorneous) code
HOLLA ATCHA BOY
first AXIS, which sees a possible error, but gives you the opportunity to override what it thinks (because you're the operator)
the second error only occurs once the emc interpreter has actually interpreted the erroneous line
if you had a 20000 line program, and the error were on line 19999, most of your program would run
and then the second error would show up
so this is not an AXIS bug - it's not possible for AXIS to be avsolutely sure that the preview path is what the machine would do (due to offsets, probing, etc)
so it assumes you know, and gives you the option of overriding it
it sure is better than no message
right it's saying "I think there could be a problem, but since it's your code, you can run anyway"
Yes, I agree
WHATS UP anonimasu
the second message is because your code actually does ask the machine to go out of bounds (and that's known to be a problem, so you aren't given a choice to continue)
BigJohnT hey what kind of encoders u think i should get?
Ok, I just tried it again and even though I tell it to "run anyway" it does not even run any lines even though the reported error is on line 6
Gamma-X: what for?
SWPadons: seems like it won't run any code no matter where the error is
ok, two possibilities there (that I can think of :) )
1) the machine is already outside the soft limits, and you need to override limits and jog back into the defined limits before executing
2) your computer is fast enough that programs of the length you're testing with get interpreted before any noticeable motion has occurred
BigJohnT for my sem servo drives lol on the anilam
2 sounds like it. It has moved to X-0.5562 which is near the soft limits
which is a move on line 3 not line 6
Gamma-X: why do you want to change the encoders?
does the programed move exceed the limits
the interpreter may look at many lines before the first line has finished executing, so it's somewhat random as to how "early" the error will be caught
yeah i hate that
a bit confusing when you encounter it
the interpreter always seems a few lines ahead
BigJohnT to eventually turn my anilam into emc
line 6 does exceed the limit so it does not lie there
Gamma-X: do the current ones not work?
BigJohnT yes but i believe we spoke and u said they might need to be replaced...
basicly all i would need is a pc i/o anything card? thats it?
SWPadnos: perhaps the label would be less confusing if it was "Run up Limits" instead of "Run Anyway"
"Run Anyway" tells me that it will run the entire program...
it runs the program, until an error is encountered
Gamma-X: I have not got into servos with EMC yet so I can't tell you
anyone done ac servos with emc yet?
if there were no errors (for example, you program a probing move to Z-3, but it always touches well before that), then the program would run to the end
Or "Run to Error"
Gamma-X, yes, but the person I know who has done that isn't on right now
You shouldn't program outside of your limits I've been told...
that's true, but again, there may not be a real error when the program is actually run (with tool offsets and such)
SWPadnos who is it?
it's only when the interpreter gets there, and sees that there is a real error, that it knows it has to stop
Gamma-X, pete V
I think Jon E has also set up some AC servo systems, and I'll bet Ray H has also
SWPadnos: would it not be more informative to say "Run to Limits"
I don't think so, but you might :)
Ok, my thinking must be flawed as I get that a lot here...
anone understand what "a 2000 line encoder" means?
what about them?
you get 2000 pulses per reveloution
it's a encoder with 2000 pulses per rev..
better accuracy i guess?
Gamma-X: better then what?
i dont know what encoders come on my sem servos
ordered new ones?
no just thinkin about small upgrades here and there.... what i can do.
a "2000-line" encouder should give 2000 counts per revolution, but it could be 8000 - there are a couple of ways of describing encoder resolutions
2000-line should be 500 cycles (CPR) * 4, but there's no real guarantee without more info
2000-line is 2000 lines * 4 = 8000 pulses/rev
not necessarily :)
i dont know how you can misconstrue line to mean quarter cycle
it could be 500CPR * 4 = 2000 lines
because that's the number of edges
an edge being a line
its really cool to hear your friend's song on the radio
yeah - that is cool
Gamma-X: why don't you call the service techs at Anilam they can tell you what you have...
BigJohnT everyone tells me that but when i called they were pretty rude and rushed me off the phone...
Darn, I hate to hear that
do you have your questions written down and worked out before you call?
i asked if he knew anything of the controller i had he said no its outdated and we dont offer support for it.
You should ask if they have any documentation for it..
Ok, you have to ask specific questions not general one
BigJohnT: yeah that's the key
Like "I have an Anilam xxy and I need the operations manual do you have it?"
well i did before that i asked about dnc on the machine and he said what control
the people that built my machine, didnt have much documentation on the drives but they still faxed me all they had on it..
can I buy one/download
I'm almost finished building a mill with stepper motors that are driven with a l297&l298. Right now i'm moving them with a arduino. would EMC be a good choice for my hardware setup? I mostly will be working with gerber files
Gamma-X: did you ask a specific question about dnc?
Gamma-X, have you googled for the manual
what's a gerber file?
a plot file for a laser plotter
often for a pcb
cool, it it vector or raster?
right, I'ld like to make my own PCBs
archivist i have the manual and ive googled that thing so many times
what thing is it you are looking for?
mellery_ u ever cut sumthing with gerbers?
gerbers arent negatives..
you still need to make toolpaths off them
but also raster like in places
as you cant add material with a mill.
I did once when I forgot to do a tool offset
my layout program can make the toolpaths, i've only sent the files to companies before who have made boards for me
I added mill holder to work piece
mellery_: a gerber file is not a toolpath..
mellery_: just so you know, they probably used a program that made a toolpath onit..
gerber is positive, milling is negative
looks like from googling that it is for pcb board
Eagle PCB (software i use) can generate g-code
I have used eagle to make gcode.. Using both pcb-gcode and a script that one of the emc developers created.
or 2 of them
g-code isnt short for gerber-code?
ahh, sorry that got me confused
[23:50:13] <anonimasu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-code
g-code comes in many flavours..
[23:50:33] <BigJohnT> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerber_File
like a shitload of them
more like a brazillion
Gamma-X: you get your VFD yet?
should be here monday
cool, what did you get?
[23:59:15] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/house/prefloor.JPG
[23:59:32] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/house/postfloor.JPG