toastyde1th is now known as toastydeath
cradek:u got your ears on
emc and axis work correctly with the g18 arc
peter wallace has his numbers wrong
however he might have seen a bug where the preview in AXIS is wrong
would never work
did he post his gcode somewhere?
you man Kirk Wallace?
all i saw was what yall had in the user group email
I think that's Kirk, not Peter (no relation I know of)
yes,more wallaces than i realized
my preview shows correct
good to know, thanks
anyone here ever heard of PICpro
the really old PIC programmer that big-bangs on a parallel port?
i don't know
or this: http://www.glcontrols.com/Products/picpro.htm
nope. never heard of it until now
my co-worker bought it to drive a lathe
as the "control"
that wasn't too bright, was it?
i'm trying to figure out how to tell him
because he's got the damn lathe running
it moves, and all sorts of lathey-things
or so he thinks
how do you do a screen shot?
he's never touched a machine tool before
can he program it with G-code or something else that's at least as useful?
it's all ladder logic and structured text
jlmjvm, hit the print-screen key, or alt-printscreen for just the active window
he's like, "G-CODE IS THE OLD WAY"
and i'm like, yet you've never touched a machine tool
strong opinion for someone who has never made a part in his life
well, you could be tactless like me and say something like "that wasn't too bright, was it?"
it's going to be funny when they hand it to me and i tell them it's unusuable for what we need
or, "wait a while, then we'll seee who's laughing
it's not entirely his fault
he asked a ton of people and got blown off
wait, don't tell me
[00:31:08] <jlmjvm> http://imagebin.org/11701
it kind of is
the people doing "R&D"
have ZERO machine tool experience
cradek:check it out,did that in mdi
well, I could see that software being useful if you wanted a single-purpose lathe that just barfeeds, turns, feeds, turns, signals that it's out of stock ...
and they're trying to build the damn things
swpadnos: this is for prototyping parts
so it's the opposite of what I just described then
so it's useless then
at the moment, yes
they don't know that yet though
well, I'm sticking to my first statement
you can decide when to tell them ;)
they've just got a 11,000 lb chunk of cast iron
whatever, i'm not going to say anything until they ask me to program it
i'm sort of a bystander
ok - time for me to get back to work. have fun folks
I'm planning on upgrading a non-networked box that has 2.1.7 currently installed to 2.2.1. I'll manually copy across the deb package. Does anyone know if this new version has any new dependencies beyond what 2.1.7 required. I.e are there likely to be other debs that I'll need to fetch and copy across?
dunno, but I bet dpkg / synaptic could tell you
looking at this diff, it doesn't seem like there are any additional requirements: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/debian/control.in.diff?r1=1.22;r2=220.127.116.11
i guess i was hoping to avoid two trips to the shop, without internet access there it's a bit of a pain. I guess the worst that can happen is that it wont install
right, and it'll tell you what it needs
or, you could use the command line on the net-connected machine, and have it tell you what it's going to install
Unfortunately I've just upgraded that and neglected to watch what it was doing - I was in a hurry to get it running to fix some ladder issues, - which it has done thankfully
well, you can loko at the depends in synaptic
see if there are any differences.
that diff told me that it's not longer picky about the specific version of python, but is otherwise the same (but I could have misinterpreted that)
I'm running kubuntu which uses adept - I don't think synaptic is installed - I might be wrong. I wonder if I can find out from dpkg instead
does adept have a "package properties" menu item/icon?
no - it shows the packages required by the current version 2.2.1 but i can't see any way to find out the packages required by my previously installed version
do you still have the live cd? you could just boot it and try the upgrade
that diff is between the debian control file used for 2.1.x and that used for 2.2.x
so it should show exactly what you want, if you can read diffs in a debian control file :)
the live cd is an option - thanks
did you mean the package file at http://www.linuxcnc.org/emc2/dists/dapper/emc2.2/binary-i386/Packages
for a careful finishing cut on cast iron with carbide, what sfm?
I suppose i can just compare it's 2.2.1 entry with the entry for 2.1.7
I know it should be cut dry
dunno about carbide
the key IMO is a _sharp_ cutter
otherwise you'll get rubbing
and a non-uniform finish
I have a choice of new carbide inserts (face mill) or a handmade fly HSS flycutter
is the cut going to be very light (depth of cut)?
yes maybe .002 at a time
it should only take .004 altogether
buckie555, I meant this diff: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/debian/control.in.diff?r1=1.22;r2=18.104.22.168
is this that vise cleanup?
turns out the base is flat(ish) but the top surface is twisty
and you know it is unhardened cast iron?
all I know is it's cast, and it cuts easily with a file
how do I tell for sure?
to be honest, I dunno
it might be cast steel, etc
still, cuts easily with a file...
ack, sorry to distract from emc talk
heh, thats ok
swpadnos - thanks for that - will take a look
the good part is it indicates about the same after clamping to the mill as it did on the surface plate
so its not deflecting when you clamp it down
seems within .0005 everywhere
the bottom seems quite flat (and the mill table must be too)
buckie555, you're welcome
the top is terrible, it would rock on the plate as the indicator swung back and forth .004
are you trying to determine flatness of a surface
independant of parallism
no, I want the top of the vise parallel to the bottom
i was watching this old lathe howto film, they were using cutters with like 1/4" nose radius for roughing cuts
leaves a better surface finish when you use high feeds
and the chips just peel off smooth
big old lathes?
.050"/rev and up
no, not particularly. i think one of them was actually the same as mine (atlas 10")
interesting, I wouldn't have expected that on a smallish lathe
what was the depth
per rev, no idea
well i meant depth of cut
which you answered!
hot rolled steel bar
that is pretty neat
do you have the link?
will look, sec
there are a pretty good swath of smaller lathes that are fairly rigid
all used, though
gosh i hope i didnt dream this
i don't think you did
it was a link cradek posted, "how to run a lathe" films
that was done on a south bend 10"
"how to run a lathe"
yes but the other films have other lathes
i bet the logger just missed it
must be cast iron. it's making dust.
cant find the original link
that's definitely an atlas 10"
how big is that file, and is it on your DSL line?
70MB and yes, but i dont mind
the clear winner is HSS...
how many cuts did you have to take to find that out?
I was gonna suggest trials, but assumed you couldn't afford that
that's a pretty light cut
400rpm, one tooth = be very patient
i'm looking at the cut halfway through the vid
is there one more?
I hope it stays sharp through it all
toastydeath: I think cradek is talking about his vise reconditioning
nevermind my good sir
the ultra-slomo in that video is neat
well that was wildly successful
Your vice? How did it turn out?
within .0005 in every direction I can think to measure
after rotating it into place and mounting it
so about 1/10th the error I started with - not bad
Cutting bottom or the jaw ways?
the bottom started flat
I measured very very carefully to figure out what to cut
every mill should have internet access
I'm back inside now
but yeah, I chat while it's cutting
I've got to turn my mill around the computer is in the corner
claustrophobic back there between the mill table and the lathe
especially since I can't figure out how to do estop
.0005 not bad bet it will work better now...
probably need a grinder or a non-homemade flycutter to get any better :)
yes but what will I do with all that shim stock now?
melt it and start casting
SWPadnos: my flycutter tool was excellent - I spent a lot of time on it
it kind of doesn't matter unless you're taking heavy cuts and it's a spindly thing - a spinning dingus can't help but spin in a plane
unless it's flexy
death-o-phobic is what I'm trying to avoid
but you can't get a good finish with a dull or misshapen tool
eric hope you have some limits set
falling and crushing are the two most common fatal industrial accidents
or being crushed under some falling thing - the best of both worlds!
and then they pour concrete over you!
as a bonus
if the wrench doesn't work, try a shotgun http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7091904.stm
wow, that's sure bright
hard to believe he wasn't drunk
that's what I was thinking
(penetrating oil + time are your friends)
after 2 weeks, you're stuck
a torch will work though
yeah a torch is next
but the studs are easily replaceable,
torch before shotgun
when I find myself reaching for the shotgun, I know it's time for a break
Thats the dumbest thing I have seen ... in a long while. I needed that
torch aka gas wrench
i'd go rent a 1000 ft/lb impact wrench
before i tried a firearm
or a torch
Bet he would have been fine had he retorqued the others and tried again
yeah, I was thinking power tools could have been useful
my dad had a stuck lugnut and I broke it off
that was a surprise
been there too ones I hate are spun spline in the hub
that would be bad, sounds hard to fix
Just more work as usual ...
Any of you use any rexaloy ?
sounds like steel?
A tool steel someone recomended if I ever saw any
never even heard of it
is like some t16 analouge
T16? is that ASME ANSI or ?
i wasn't aware of more than one t16, so i don't know
maybe it's rexalloy?
[04:46:27] <SWPadnos> http://www.alloycastproducts.com/docs/rexalloy33.htm
trying to figure out what are you refering to
a tool steel
like D1 or whatever
ie, completely unintelligible to anyone who doesn't already know ;)
<--- dealt with telcom and ANSI T16 is telcom related
i thought we were talking about tool steels!
and that people were hip to tool steels!
I APOLOGIZE FOR BEING OBTUSE
no way man, we're more computer geeky than machining geeky here
Thats likely it SWPadnos
I figured it might me mistyped or something - that was the first web hit
I wish everything would have their name space...
"unaffected by repeated heating"
to what temperature?
just before melting? ;)
[04:49:58] <SWPadnos> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBTKeRd6wec
tool steel related q... are those spring fingers use to retain electrical connectors formed before or after heating?
they're generally stamped from flat sheets I think
so they get heated by the stamp, but I don't know that they're specifically heated for forming
in fact, I think phosphor bronze (commonly used for battery terminals) gets soft and loses its springiness if you heat it
toastydeath: basically a thin sheet metal spring
swpadnos is correct then
the heat is negligible
SWPadnos: oh... thought those things are done with spring steel like 1095
I think springy metals are generally cold-formed
oh, they may be
spring steels are annealed
otherwise they AREN'T springy
so it is work hardening that makes then springie?
at my old company, we used phosphor bronzxe for our battery terminals because it conducts better
no, the "spring" in spring steel just refers to the high fatiuge resistance
no, I think it's made as spring steel, then gets formed without heating, or you lose the springyness
SWPadnos: heh, that seems to be the low end stuff... the catalog calls out BeCu as the "better stuff"
yeah, we used that too ;)
springs are annealed, man
the phosphor bronze may have been for some early prototypes we did, wher ewe had problems with - you guessed it - the contacts flattening out ;)
BeCu is scary :/
toastydeath: oh? thought it was specific temper...Hmmm
why would you want a hard spring?
that would decrease fatiuge life
if you need a higher spring constant, use thicker wire or less winds per inch
without annealing the spring tries to return to the original state
after some use
it gets rid of all the internal forming stresses.
toastydeath: I just want a spring finger to retain something
use shim stock
that's what started all this, was thinking of ripping up a feeler gage
but donno how to form fingers on there. guessing maybe a vise and a "die"?
you might be able to find a small die block
for doing notching
and of course, how does one cut it... is it like music wire where it'll chip the cutter
if you're using thin feeler stock
I just want a 90deg bend actually, so I suppose any hardened steel block should work as a die
the die block is just a block of steel attached to some plastic
could clamp b/t two pieces of aluminum bar and cut with endmill
the feeler goes between the plastic and steel, the punch goes in a hole
and you whack it with a hammer
so that stuff isn't fully hardened?
some feeler gages might be
shim stock, man
could you just use little tent-shaped things
instead of all fingered up and stuff
bend the thing down the middle
it is the shipping for a single shim stock that's the killer... $0.55 each but 3-4x of that for shipping
they sell something called shim in a can?
it is pretty cool stuff
i think we get ours via msc
super handy to have around i guess
if you are into that scene
decent sources of materials are evaporating faster and faster
you don't have msc?
well like, it's mail order?
why would it need to be local
unless this is like a HOT JOB
easier to get feeler gages.. I just need a cable with odd connectors
order from mcmaster before 8pm, it gets here the next day
MSC is trying to catch up
[05:09:44] <SWPadnos> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1647840&PMT4NO=32725195
enco has them
enco is msc
also available in brass
brass don't spring, right?
every metal springs?
spring or compress ?
rubber doesn't compress
no, pretty funny when people assume it does
what does it do
constrain it from flowing, and the constraints will be broken
that's true of just about anything
non gas anyway
but people don't assume that steel will compress
because there's only one critical axis
and if you want to be super technical everything does compress
just not very far
rubber also almost doesn't burn
that's how they used to case the balls at the end of the telephone earpiece
err - form is probably a better word there
they'd take a straight tube and drop a rubber ball in the end, then heat it up
thermite almost doesn't burn, either!
the rubber would expand and form the ball shape at the end of the tube
thermite woo hoo
then when you cool it, the rubber shrinks down again, and you dump the ball out
solid rocket boosters are made of rubber and thermite woohooo!
pew pew pew rockets
saw a bad rocket explosion on break.com the other day
I can't find it ... rained lit solid propellant ....
Oh no wait I did bookmark it on the other machine ... ya gotta see this http://www.break.com/index/satblow.html
is that kersplosion from vandenberg?
I think they said Cape canaveral
Said cape canaveral but I don't remember seeing that on the news ever
the Air Force spent mucho money on vandenberg, and ruined it
but I'm pretty sure that was a saturn
basically dumped a batch of solid rocket propellant on the launch facility
they said Delta 2
or some such
my memory is pretty worthless
that or your hearing ;)
It's not where I would have wanted to have been ;o) yea it did a hell of a jod doing that.. lucky no injury
too many F-16's with no earplugs
hearing down 10 db in right ear
yep, Delta 2 at Cape Canaveral
Wonder how they would overlook a 12' crack?
on your toes as usual ;o)
wonder how they'd find it after the rocket exploded
you know, from among all the other 17-foot cracks
you can tell from the crack surface
if you can find the crack surface ...
It's amazing what they can do
the 747 that blew up leaving new york was put back together
most of the pieces were in the water
there was a PBS show about some SwissAir flight that went down near Nova Scotia maybe, and they recovered something like 98 or 99% of the plane from the ocean floor
they determined that swissair flight went down due to the in-flight movie
that woulda pissed me off, never watched one
what, Muppet Movie 2 or something?
how did the damn in-flight movie cause a plane to go down
oh, right. it may have been caused by the entertainment system
I thought it was a ventilation fan though
like "gee it's getting hot in here, can you turn on the fan", and it's actually the fan that's on fire
heat isn't the problem at altitude
sure, but burning parts of the plane, melting hydraulic hoses, and suffocating people/things is a problem
that's generally the way people look at it
I personally see it as an opportunity
do you work for Airbus or Boeing? :)
my boss tried to get me to work on the wiring problem
damn. this new laptop does have some bitchin speakers
the "ubuntu sound" just about knocked me out of the chair
Yeah my intro sound is WAY louder than sound ajusted in gnome
it's probably at BIOS default level
especially if you have a laptop with function keys for turning it up/down
It's better than hearing windows boot
a friend of mine used to have a Darth Vader quote as his startup sound: "Now I am the master"
had a buddy with <gama omega delta> as a front tag in the 80's still has a god complex
Hmmm. how about alpha omega delta - which would just be infinity
since I've recently upgraded from 2.1.7 to 2.2.1 I no longer get any helpful debug messges warning about incorrect hal configuration, any ideas how I can re-enable the line that tells me where the problem might be?
halcmd should report all the errors it did in version 2.1.x. However, the format for error messages has changed.
emc2.1: HAL:3: ERROR: pin 'q' not found
emc2.2: bad.hal:2: pin 'q' not found
hm, and I see that the error report is one line off :(
I don't see any error messages at all, I used to but now none are displayed
anyway, the format of the error is filename:linenumber: message
I dont see any lines with the literal HAL in it
right, in 2.1 the error messages started "HAL:". Now they start with the filename where the error occured -- 'bad.hal' in my example.
I see pyVCP creating widgets from ... done followed by shutting down and cleaning up EMC2...
no I don't see that either
buckie555: do you run emc from a terminal?
I get the starting... entries, then the pyVCP entry then shutting down and killing task but nothing that points to where the error is
it looks like they are also printed on stderr (emc 2.2) instead of stdout (emc 2.1) .. so if you are looking at the "EMC2 Errors" window after starting emc from icon or menu, I think that means the error is moved from the "Print file information" section to the "Debug file information" section.
no I'm running axis
ah got it
thanks for that - you're right it was at the bottom of the window under Debug file information
thank goodness for that, I've been fearful of making too many changes at once at the risk of not being able to track down where the problem lies
buckie555: congrats on a very good debugging skill :)
most people start by changing a lot of things, and then nothing works anymore :D
yes there's nothing worse than gradually backing out change after change before finally realising the 'innocuous' culprit!
well since upgrading to 2.2.1 ladder seems to be working as expected.
I can't believe I spent days trying to implement something in hal that has taken me 2 hours in ladder!
not to mention the fact that it's pretty too!
so you got along to like ladder :)
maybe you can spare another 1-2 hours to document it
Once the VMC's making chips again I'd be very happy to. I was thinking of sharing the config files with a walkthrough as well if anyone's interested
the feature in ladder where it indicates whether a hal pin has been bound to an input/output is excellent - makes debugging much easier
SWPadnos:u up yet,i have a capacitor question
ealtime system did not load
Shutting down and cleaning up EMC2...
ERROR: Module probe_parport is in use
<commandline>:0: exit value: 1
<commandline>:0: rmmod failed, returned -1
<commandline>:0: unloadrt failed
ERROR: Module hal_lib is in use by probe_parport
ERROR: Module rtapi is in use by probe_parport,hal_lib
ERROR: Module rtai_math does not exist in /proc/modules
ERROR: Module rtai_sem is in use by rtapi
ERROR: Module rtai_shm is in use by rtapi
ERROR: Module rtai_fifos is in use by rtapi
ERROR: Module rtai_sched is in use by rtapi,rtai_sem,rtai_shm,rtai_fifos
ERROR: Module rtai_hal is in use by rtapi,rtai_sem,rtai_shm,rtai_fifos,rtai_sched
should I just reboot?
i have no idea
tried unloadrt probe_parport
i've never used emc, i have no idea what you are talking about
alSMT: sure, reboot, and let us know if there's a consistent problem
There's a feature I'd like to see on Axis, and I think I might be able to hack it myself. Where do I go from here?
Is there a feature/roadmap list somewhere?
first, get to the point where you can recompile emc2 and axis from source. Then, modify the source to do what you want. Third, optionally submit your work in "patch" format for possible inclusion in a future version.
[18:01:16] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#On_Ubuntu_5_10_and_6_06_from_source
there's not really a roadmap -- we recently released version 2.2 and started working on new features for version 2.3 which will be out somewhere from 6 months to a year from now.
lunchtime here, bbl
not sure how got to that point but reboot and retried I was playing with a config to get rigid taping and g33.1 without a physical encoder connected I got spindle not turning this time I got out by estop and abort
g33.1 rigid taping ?g code like this/ m3 s200/ g33.1 x0y0z-.1 k.05 / m5 p2 /m4 s200 /g33.1 x0y0z0 k.05/would this be usable code?
my machine needs to dwell before reversal of the spindle.
alSMT: g33.1 reverses the spindle during its operation
so that code won't do what you want
the doc mentions the spindle must be turning before g33.1 is inisheated
I haven't got an encoder yet just wondering if I can make it come together
g33.1 isn't a canned cycle correct
internally, g33.1 z-1 k.05 is a bit like this: g33 z-1 k.05 / m4 / g33 z0 k.05
except that it keeps tracking the spindle past z-1 as the spindle slows, stops, and then begins turning in the other direction
(so if your spindle stops quickly it might go down to z-1.05; if it stops slowly, it may go deeper)
you may have to add some logic (e.g., classicladder) to enforce this pause between turning forward and reverse
that were I have a problem if I rev spindle without m5 p2 my interlock on my magnetic starter wont let it happen it has a magnet brake though and stops rapily
g33.1 won't care if the spindle spends .1 second, 1 second, or 100 seconds at a dead stop
I'm certain that with classicladder you can express
"don't start turning clockwise until at least N seconds after the spindle was turning counterclockwise" in ladder logic
but I'm not experienced enough with it to do that myself
what happens is the magnetic brake is energized by the motor legs when the starter drops the magnetic brake colapes
how about g33 same behaiver
g33 doesn't start or stop the spindle
so maybe I could use this but would the feed keep up coming out of the hole?
for rigid tapping to work, your machine must handle s300 m3 / m4
if you try to do a rigid tapping cycle with m3 / g33 / m5 p2 / m4 / g33 you will only ruin your tap
I could use a floating tap holder
it's critical for g33.1 that it continue tracking the spindle after the reverse has been commanded
g33 can't do that
g33.1 should work fine with a spindle that must pause before reversing, but you'll have to use something like classicladder to actually make the pause happen
how about using the encoder for accurate spindle speed verify using pyvcp for a tach
(which you'll want to do anyway, because you don't want gcode that says m3 / m5 / g1z-1 to crash the non-turning tool into the work because the spindle didn't start moving again at the m5..)
yes that's been done
the sim/lathe configuration shows the speed of the simulated spindle, you can look at that for hints
[20:54:21] <jepler> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal_vcp.html
i'm looking at nist lathe right now but the dwell is a stumbleling block
When you drive motion.feed-hold TRUE, movement will stop. You can use this input to make emc wait while the logic for the spindle reverse is running
i also use feed hold hardware switch
in that case, you would use an 'or2' block or a ladder logic rung to let either one of them set motion.feed-hold TRUE
is block going to removed?
you should use 'loadrt or2 count=(number)' instead of 'loadrt blocks or2=(number)"
but if you use ladder logic for the timing you'll want to use it to create the final signal for motion.feed-hold
i dont see how feed hold will help though the spindle would still run and seems like the g33 has to overide this funtion
you'll take emc's motion.spindle-forward and hook that as an input to classicladder.
classicladder will produce an output, and you'll hook that to the physical output that makes the spindle turn forward
likewise for spindle-reverse
inside classicladder, it will track whether the spindle was turning forward in the recent past. If so, it will inhibit the spindle-reverse output from turning on until enough time has passed
through a timer?
back to school than
classic ladder lessons
well I'm not an expert at that .. I know something about what is possible, but not much about how to do it
is it cold in Nebraska? thanks again
no, the weather's nice today
not to bad here in Syracuse either
ULAPI: WARNING: module 'HAL_classicladder' failed to delete shmem 03
Shutting down and cleaning up EMC2...
ULAPI: WARNING: module 'HAL_classicladder' failed to delete shmem 03
is this a problem?
no, I think that's just a warning some programmer should clean up
I'm implementing an ATC with a carousel style toolchanger. It requires me to move to two known positions in the z axis during the toolchange operation. I've currently muxed in these positions after axis.2.motor-pos-cmd and before pid.2.command. This appears to work but it has the result that I get a joint following error unless I back off my following error param. Am I on the right track with this or is there a cleaner way to move the a
buckie555: no, you should use the tool change position in the ini file
you can't really move the axes in HAL/ladder.
no can do as during the tool chanhe operation I need to move to one position and then retract higher to another z position
hmm, that's problematic.
the first position lines me up with the carousel, the higher position allows me to retract so the acrousel can rotate to present another tool
in theory, you can use the 'offset' component to add something to the commanded position, and then subtract it out of the feedback position
what I've currently got sets the correct pid position after I'm done with the toolchange. Other than the obvious following error can you foresee any other pitfalls?
if you're commanding a "step" in position (instant change from say z=-1 to z=0) a PID that is tuned for trapezoidal velocity profiles will overshoot and ring much more. You can use limit3 to get a trajectory that has a trapezoidal velocity profile
I haven't done this myself, though, so YMMV
I guess that's an option. I think my PID loop is quite well tuned. My encoder on that axis is 1 micron resolution so even with a 30 count overshoot it would only be 30 microns
well within the mechanical compliance of the geneva wheel
Although I'm testing all this on a simulated setup as best I can it's rapidly dawning on me that there are some issues which are going to be very much suck and see on the machine setup
you can fix the feedback / folllowing error problem by simply holding the feedback position to emc while you're moving off of the tool change position
I'm becoming paranoid about crashing into my tool carousel during testing
yeah I don't blame you for that!
Yes that would fix it but have the unfortunate side effect of not displaying the correct z position on the gui. I'm not sure which is worse
it's almost like i want to be able to tell it to temporarily ignore the f error check
you think it's important to see the value once the machine is running properly, or are you simply concerned about it while testing? In that case, you could just use a virtual control panel to display the actual number ..
i just got some fairly bad chatter on a 1" endmill at 4000 rpm
boy was that loud
hm, why cant we implement a sane way to do toolchangin without hacking around it=
Primarily for testing yes - but you're right about outputting to the panel.I think when live I would want the following error check although I suppose I could lose it and just monitor the max error from time to time
another thought - is there a way from HAL to trigger a message to be displayed to the operator on the axis gui
is it possible to programatically write to a label or text element?
not at present; you could write a userspace component that waits for its input to be asserted TRUE and then displays a predefined message
If I were to do that would it just be displayed as a modal dialog?
a vcp element which consults its input pin value and then displays a message from a table is also possible but hasn't been done
ah that sounds quite doable
cradek: actually I wish the plc could output motion..
anonimasu - I guess it's one of those things that you don't anticipate until you try a toolchanger retrofit
Plus there are different configurations out there. My sabres requirements for example are very different to that of the mazak example
buckie555: it's got to do with the command path(where motion comes from)
buckie555: and that's why you have to disconnect the pid loop..
as far as I understand it..
or well, fake it..
yes - ideally I would be able to apply a temporary offset to the motion module so that at least it's aware of what's happening
I think the easiest way is a macro..
so that after it's already determined what the position should be it applies any configured offset
What I've got at the moment works, I just wanted to check that there wasn't a more elegant approach but in this case it seems not
like "MXXX(disable soft limits) / g0 z500 / g0 x500y500 / MXXX(change tool) / g0 x-50y20 / g0 z-124
I wonder how that would work.
to implement as a userspace macro..(Given that you can set the current position as a parameter
I've taken the approach to do all my toolchange logic outside of the gcode so that in my programs I just need the M6Tx and thats it
means I'm lesss likely to forget something which would invariably end in a crash
Yes, but I were figuring if M6Tx would be a program..
not user modifiable..
Oh I see - sorry
well call a macro for the motion
as that makes motion come from interp..(controlled motion and not hack-ish)
that seems more sane imo
that's true but during the toolchange you've gor motin requirements combined with lots of HAL/ladder level logic. From my perspective I would prefer if it were all in one place
but I perfer controlled motion over not controlled motion..
alex_joni: How hard was it to customize ubuntu for emc's distro?
oh of course
I mean the plc dosent need to know that much it gets a tool change trigger..
and a tool number..
and it steps to the tool loads it resumes the program(do motion)
then fires off another trigger to the plc once that is done..
I think what I've done should be safe. Before I set iocontrol.0.tool-changed to true I ensure that my position offset has been reset
I'm not doing toolchanging yet..
I've got <----------------> that many things to do first
yes sounds simple doesn't it!
I wish I had a changer so I could just do the plc logic.
I need to dream one up...
fire toolchange torpedoes
pew pew pew
toastydeath: I have a bearing question for you
I'm really glad I tackled this project though - it's forced me to pick up a lot re the HAL and has also forced me to learn ladder which I love it's beautiful simplicity
that's what I hate about it :p
what about bearins
whatever the slang form of "bearings" would be
as on a seachart
I know where you're coming from - sometimes I think why can't it just work but then I'd rather have a system like it is that is infinitely configurable, even if it does require a little lateral thinking at times
this sounds like something i won't know
I program plc's for a living :P that's why I dont like ladder
most of the things I need to do is hard/impossible to do sanely with ladder..
toastydeath: Im pondering my bearing design for my mill
oh I see. I write C++ for a living - that's why I was impressed with it's simplicity
here's the configuration Im thinking of
i thought you were about to ask me something about sailinga and bearing
---- is screw
I started off trying to implement a state machine in HAL - big no, no - invalid pin linking hell
A is a axial bearing..
R is a radial bearing..
| is a edge that the screw will preload against..
how does that bearing configuration sound?
and all this accomplishes is what
taking up thrust.. of the leadscrew.
moving the table..
perferably backslash free..
i don't see why you've got axial and radial bearings
for a pair of ballnuts
this is at the end of the screw..
I would have thought all you need is back to back angular at one end of the screw and a floating radial at the other end
or even back to back radial if the machine is light duty
I want a thrust bearing because they handle a pretty high preload..
why are you preloading the screw itself
and not the ballnut
i'm missing something here
this is the screw to table mounting..
does that click?
what structure is the machine frame? aluminium? steel? mdf? what are you planning on machining with it?
i mean from a technical accruacy standpoint it doesn't matter so much
toastydeath: I'm mosly pondering if anything is wrong with it..
no, not at all
that's perfectly valid.
I think a better idea is to do it like
as long as you do it at both ends.
and preloadthe axial bearing..
and let the radial one take up the motor torque..
though ARR is much easier to manufacture..
and the load is negligable pretty much.
(should BE) we are talking about a short distance..
I think I'm going to have a floating radial at the other end
it's not a very important thing until you've got ridiculously accurate screws
I'll be ordering thoose someday :p
actually backslash free..
i'm talking like, 12,000 dollar screws
12k to 50k screws
I wonder how much the ones used on normal cnc's cost..
for like a four foot screw
ah.. not bad..
they're not that accurate
relatively speaking, that is
I dont get how they handle backslash..
or in reference grade leadscrews
or are we talking about different stuff..
in ballscrews the most "accurate" way to do it is two ballnuts
preloaded with a hard spacer
against one another
not a spring
like, a stack of washers.
ballscrews are inherently limited in accuracy
* anonimasu hides from toast
one step up is a leadscrew, but that has a whole seperate thing of problem
and is generally useless for most machine tools
im talking about 0.01mm at most..
yeah, you shouldn't worry too much about how your bearings are configured
or mount the flanges of the two nuts onto opposing brackets and preload them against each other with a variable spacer - i.e studding and nuts. For a simply solution it works surpisingly well
how those bearing blocks mount to the frame however
that can seriously affect accuracy of the machine
I use the old machine's leadscrew mounts..
then you're set
I turn a round bar..
and stuff bearings into it ;)
turn(I'll grind the new one)
with my new grinder..
if I can get the tools to mount to it :)
i recall moore
they always put the radial bearing closest as they could
to the ballnut
so they would do it
but that's if they spin the nut right?
yep that sounds sane
those two horizontal lines represent where the pillow blocks start and stop
that was the other configuration I were pondering
but they had 12k screws
and all sorts of insane other nonsense
makes sense to take up the torque from the motor..
but that's like if you use a pulley..
if you have direct drive it shouldnt matter..
nah, these are direct drive
the axial bearing was also like 4-5" long
the axial wasn't anything special
the radial bearings were huge
but if you grind your stuff and keep it sane, you'll do great
oh.. im messing axial/radial up..
I mean radial axial axial
never seen two axial bearings
in a high precision machine, anyway
one probably will do.. and a axial one..
though I still thing ARA is a sane configuration
you start to get into issues with two axial bearings
they fight one another
as the loads change
I used tapered roller oned in a preload configuration before
but but that's not a very noce solution as it requires lots of preload..
well preload isn't a bad thing
if your screws see more force than they're preloaded to, you are probably damaging them
well, it makes the screw harder to turn..
yeah, but it keeps them safe and accurate
that's why I want a radial one.. on the end..
really you can pretty much do as you please
and ofcourse because it's easier to make..
to mount the screw
in terms of bearings
* anonimasu nods
the alignment of the blocks is the primary factor
and also decoupling the ballnut from the table
has another big accuracy advantage
like having it floating?
hm.. I cant do taht :9
either in a flexture or some other mechanism
small machine :)
they make specific flextures to do it
not a lot of movement but you're talking about like, .05mm tops
and that can introduce huge stresses into the machine
if it's rigidly mounted
(even in a tiny machine)
it's perfectly centered to the screw mounts..
very small errors in alignment cause large stresses
but like you said, limited space
I'm going to keep it in mind..
and look at it..
preload(with two nuts is insanely hard btw)
never said it wasn't hard!
we've got a lathe at work with 3" diameter ballscrews
heh still I have a nice machine once I get it finished..
the whole screw floats
at both ends
i'm not quite sure how it works
how do you drive them?
if the whole thing flexes..
they're rotationally stiff
all other directions have give
and there's like one or two more constraints on the other end
to keep it in place
but you can push it and it moves around
* anonimasu nods
*makes a mental note*
that lathe also has the weirdest spindle we've ever seen
oh yeah, im hoping to grind myself a better spindle...
with the grinder..
good luck =)
oh, ball bearing spindle
i thought you were going to make a fluid film bearing or a plain bearing
because that's who i'm used to talking to
JymmmEMC: not that hard
bigger spaceheads than i am
JymmmEMC: we tried to keep changed to a minimum
well, _if_ I could get material in limited qty's for a sane cost..
you can make either out of like, aluminum
yeah, but I'd rather not bother.. :P
it's not like I have one of thoose lathes you are talking about to make them at
most folks like, lap them
or grind them
if you have an ID/OD grinder and a CNC mill
you can make bearings
(with enough knowhow)
you need a accurate cnc mill ;)
the mill is just to put the pockets in
oh.. you thought about that..
and just grind the races..
I guess stealing the design off the mit stuff is pretty easy..
and doing some testing :)
if you can grind them..
yeah, that's the key
they dont look hard to do..
and they've got several different looks
doing something small enough so that the rotor and both halves of the stator can fit on your equipment
I have a big mill(fairly)
like 500mm x and y :)
that's bigger than our haas
it's a old abene
with a heidenhain control..
but it runs nicely..
the old screws has less backslash then my new ones at my own machine..
but I guess they do some trickery..
good ballscrews don't develop backlash
I thought with enough wear they do
a well lubricated and kept screw will last and last
the overall machine can wear down and develop other modes of hysteresis
but it's usually not the screw
but it looks like it, because after all, it's reversal error
it's just not a reversal error in the screw.
isn't it the nut that causes the backlash?
by definition yes
that's what I thought too
but backlash refers to JUST that
hysterisis in the screw due to a gap between the nut and screw
though(screw) is what I mention because screw + nut
there are a bunch of other systems that can lag and cause apparent backlash
wearing bearings, ways, etc
mounts coming loose
a good example of that is a tenths dial test indicator
if you set it up on a gage block, and gently push down
then gently push up and release
it will hold a different zero
but if you push back down, it goes right back to where you zeroed it
and the thing is spring loaded
same thing happens on a larger scale on a machine tool
* anonimasu nods
toastydeath: let's continue this but about spindle designs some day ;)
toastydeath: (leeching off your knowledge)
thanks for the help
glad to help anytime
I should try to get the grinder running tomorrow
I made a mount for the shield yesterday..
now I need to make one :)
cart to horse: get thee behind me!
it is a real grinder though..
but, I dont see how anyone could ever have used it without a shatterguard..
it scared the hell out of me..
a ~4-6" disc spinning at 8krpm
A BLATANT DISREGARD FOR LIFE
that's exactly it
a little bit too much and "wham!"
"YOU ARE DEAD"
i must find jackscrews
at the school shop
i know they exist
i just have to figure out... where
like machinist jacks?
like, machinist's jacks?
oh I need to make them
i've got my chatter problem
and i think they will solve it
* anonimasu nods
but i am not sure
i may just have to slow dowwwnnn
we made those as a class project
i'm inching my way up to 7500 rpm on a 1" endmill
turned out to be quite useful in moving a lathe around ;)
but I need some way to make a square thread..(I dont feel like ordering taps and stuff..
hope that EM is not HSS ;)
ds2: it is
eh? doesn't tend to uh.. .like glow?
flood coolant helps
What are you going to do with jacks to resolve chatter? Or are you on a piece with overhang?
that's almost 2000 SFPM
works great for that
toastydeath: why are you in school?
toastydeath: I thought you were already a machinist
because i'd like to eventually get a master's degree or doctorate in precision engineering
i'm an apprentice.
user__ is now known as skinnypuppy1334
they have a degree for precision engineering?
not a batchelor's degree
but a few schools have high precsision facilities and courses
either precision design or precision process
i would like to go to the process side
didnt know u could get a degree like that
they're apparently out there
the neat thing is there's a demand for diamond turning operators and programmers
so i can always find a job if i have to move around
where is this school?
toastydeath: I imagine it's hard to turn that kind of stuff..
jlmjvm: there's several schools with precision programs
is precision eng part of ME?
ds2: it is
toastydeath: breathe too hard and you fuck up your part..
anonimasu: unfortunately, yes =(
toastydeath: did they make you do the usual GRE + recommendations to get in there?
i'm still working on my normal degree, dude
"whew finally done... DAMN off bu 0.00001mm"
anonimasu: so you knead the part slightly ;)
anonimasu: the good thing about the diamond turning
is .01mm is a mile
so you turn it a little
and if it's wrong, so what, put it back up and cut it again
it's not uncommon to require 3+ passes to get an optic right
I wouldn't know where to start to resolve that kind of error. Knew a guy that worked for parker aerospace complained about parts being off by the millionths ...
I wonder if magnetic field orientation becomes critical at those tolerances
it's a lot of fun to resolve the error
once you know the factors that go into it
I'm certain its a whole other level
aerospace is a huge consumer of diamond turned optics
= 1 millionth
brb.. driving my friend home
he's getting bored at me talking about bearings and stuff he dosent understand ;)
oh he's been gaming something and singing something about drugs meanwhile..
down in the millionths, the surface damage done to the part by improper tool rake selection
in prior operations
can screw your part up
gotta machine out all the damage before you can start to actually figure the optic
i wish i was turning optics =(
i'll trade ya jobs for a few month's...
we only work to .002" true position.. but parts can be 6-9 ft long and have lugs at 5-7 different angles and positions...
Many operations to screw up a good part.... and NDT and plating.... many sizes are to be met AFTER cad plating....
what bo you mean??
i meant is that what you run
a beam line
no we mfg the whole landing gear for various commercial and military aircraft..
new assembly project in house is the dreamliner main gear - 787
we do the superjet 100, global express, cl604,rj,v22,f18
hawker 800 & 850 xp, h4000,bd100
sounds like a lot of variety to the jobs that come through
all different parts that look a little alike .. all with different requirements and specs
most are 300m or super high-tuf... some are hi-strength forged aluminum ( v22 mains)
we finish post h/t.. Rc 52-54
tiem 4 schools!