machine on should send a signal that turns the power on
even after you come out of estop?
yes because its jsut a hardware estop
what's the difference between 'just a hardware estop' and 'combined hardware and software estop'?
Hey what's that paste image url?
that emc knows there was a hardware estop
or a softlimit
ok what about that mesa output... it latches on the F2 from the gui, and if the hardware isnt estopped that machine powers.
could it also know that there is a voltage going through it?
not an output
so if i put an input in parralel with the output
if voltage goes to the input machine on, if voltage doesnt machine off
my head hurts
did you draw a diagram?
right now its in my head
well draw stuff
and on the machine
put emc on the left and the estop chain on the right
m5i20 in between
[00:08:03] <Skullworks-PGAB> http://www.ucsc.edu/news_events/press_releases/text.asp?pid=1534
[00:09:07] <rayh> http://imagebin.org/10514
Is this a bit like you are thinking only without the limits in the circuit.
note that the 24V supply is switched only by the physical power switch, not the estop chain
that's pretty necessary IMO :)
unless you want to require several people to hold buttons down to start the machine ;)
yeah thats how we have it
Looks like I missed a line between +24 and the mesa in1
yeah, thats the thing
Must have been to thin to show up.
ours stops recieving 24V when the estop chain is broken
Let me finish that missing line cause there's a relay contact in there.
we need to get that to disable the machine in the software, and stop looking so we can start the machine up again from F2
im thinking that if our input is linked to a machine disable, then it wont let us power back up cause its voltage is missing.... is there a way to turn off that input after its been tripped... and turn it back on when we press F2?
[00:17:26] <rayh> http://imagebin.org/10519
That should show the estop return signal to the mesa.
is that a capacitor? whats its story?
CR1 is the coil, the lower line is the contacts
That is a dry contact on control relay one
oh, is that what CR stands fro?
You got it.
cool. learn something new (or old) every day :)
what does "dry contact" mean?
no power flow
at least, none expected
So the trick is to energize the coil of control relay 1 using the mesa out5
and it signals the emc through mesa in1 that estop is up.
why dont you just hook mesa-in1 to the estop chain?
Now you have an impossibility
fenn, it's hooked through the relay
fenn you could by wiring down to mesa in1 from the chain.
But that doesn't tell you the relay has been pulled
well - where would you connect the two contacts?
i'd hook mesa-in1 to where CR1 is now
you need to put some current through the input opto
hmmm. that could work
and get rid of CR1 CR1-2
what does CR1 do?
CR1 is likely to have other contacts that do other things
cause that's a short circuit through the mesa card.
like contact 3-phase power to the motor
true - that should be a low current chain, but not that low
(something like 50-100 mA, instead of the 10 mA you want through the mesa)
You could put all of the estop chain into mesa in1
and not have an out
yeah, connect mesa-in1 to the left end of the estop chain
but that's always getting +24V arg
you still want an out, so hitting F1 will stop the machine
But I prefer, and most USA standards require an estop chain without silicon.
right. so this relay is a current sensor basically
Each input has a + and a - terminal... how does that work? is the internal resistor between them? i was expecting to just have a voltage input to one terminal
In the case I drew, you can kill power to the system, CR1 without the mesa doing anything.
does CR cut off power in other parts of the system?
other contacts from CR1 would probably turn off mains contactors for the spindle and servo power supply
ok that makes sense
or they'd turn off relays that then turn off those large contactors
(ive never hooked an input up to the 7i37... so bear with me on that input terminal question)
Adam_, it's an optoisolator. an LED (possibly with a resistor)
* fenn hates the disconnected coil/contact stuff
you need to run a little bit of current through it to turn it on
so does it sense current, or voltage between the terminals?
it doesn't sense anything. the LED turns on when some current is run through it
but the input has to tell emc that the stop has been pressed... what exactly is it measuring to get that signal?
current i take it?
(i did, but its a lot of EE jargon... ill have to do some research to understand, for instance what an optoisolator is)
The opto-isolated inputs have 4.4K Ohm series resistors and reverse input
protection diodes across the opto-isolator LEDS. Input current an the maximum 24V input
is approximately 5mA. The isolated inputs will work with input voltages from 4 to 24V.
"an" should be "at"
right, so i cant just supply the + terminal a voltage and assume the resistor is grounded... i have to complete the circuit with the -ve terminal
so if you give it 24V, I = 24/4400 == .005
nm, i got it i think
this way you have separate grounds for each opto
ive programmed a plc before, but its inputs didnt work the same
an opto is just an led and a light sensor
and usually an amplifier to boost the output from the light sensor
so how do i do this in the config?
keroppi keropp meet ribbito
fenn: tomp testing a laptop wit DSL ( damn small linux )
i guessed from your ip
enuf 4 me... byebye (tomp)
Adam_: by "this" you mean ray's diagram?
i mean, im wiring it to my input1 on the 7i37.... what do i have to do in the config to use this signal?
hook it to iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in i suppose
hi all. hey, i'm trying to create some sort of bootable USB version of linux that includes emc that will run on a 2Gb usb stick. i'm thinking about putting a stripped down version of debian on it and taking it from there, any ideas?
Adam_: " Should be driven FALSE when an external estop condition exists"
ok thanks, ill fumble my way through that :)
dougztr: use the emc livecd as an image. you might have to do some grub-install stuff on the usb key to get it to boot
then you can mount /home as unionfs or jffs from somewhere else on the usb key
fenn: the livecd says it needs 2+ Gb though, I only have 2 total
how are you going to fit 2GB on a CD? that's silly
so, keep it compressed
skunkworks did thi - he has a bootable USB stick that's like the CD
I don't remember if he ever put up a wiki page, but there will be links to the web pages he used in the IRC logs
that's whats neat about 'overlay' filesystems like unionfs, you dont have to uncompress everything else
fenn: i really don't need all that fluff from the livecd, yeah its just a pet project.
fenn: i'll have to research unionfs, i first experienced it just the other day toying with DSL
dougztr: the reason i suggested the livecd is that it already boots from a realtime kernel
[01:08:53] <SWPadnos> http://pendrivelinux.com/2007/01/25/usb-x-ubuntu-610
fenn: i know how to copy a kernel, :-)
i have this so far (emc-enable-in is TRUE, and isnt driving FALSE when i cease input to 01)
-newsig EstopSense bit
linksp EstopSense <= m5i20.0.in-01
linksp EstopSense => iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in
dougztr: you could just install debian on a usb-key and download the emc .deb's then
SWPadnos, fenn: great! I'm working on preparing a R&D project at work to deploy emc2 on some big stuff
i never had much luck booting computers from usb keys
fenn: my new system doesn't have a floppy, and its panic time when i wipe my bootsector out
use netboot (pxe)
even old stuff that wont boot from usb seems to have pxe
fenn, if i had half a brain i'd get that set up on my toy server
its not that hard really
anyways, guys, suppose i wanted to convert a old manual table mill to cnc, and use emc2. what HP steppers do you think i'd need?
steppers are usually rated in oz*in
also there's the frame size (nema 23 34 etc)
fenn: duly noted. i've seen some kits for bridgeports. i presume something like that would probably do the job
is it a BP sized mill?
thats the smallest one we have
ok. I have a BP 9x42, and the servos I have are 27 in-lb
I think newer ones are ~31 in-lb, due to nicer magnets and stuff
ty for the tip.
they're 2500 RPM, 9.7A continuous, 39A peak (meaning ~108 in-lb peak), max 150V
at full speed/full torque, they'd be 6KW, wihch is a lot
for steppers, you'd need higher initial torque, since the torque falls off the faster the motor goes
around 500 oz*in is good for bridgeport steppers isnt it?
that's undersized for a pro machine
==450 watts or so
for a hobby or home shop, it's probably OK
my servos are 27 in-lb, which is 432 oz-in
but they're that torque continuously, and at 2500 RPM
what's peak torque?
but again, they can do that when they're spinning at 1000 RPM or higher, which a stepper can hardly even reach let alone deliver any torque
i don't think i'd need 1000 rpm
right, so more like 2-3 times that value
unless your name is mariss :P
1000 RPM at the motor, through a 2:1 drive, with a 5 TPI screw, means 100 IPM rapids
this motor is intended to be used at 2:1
how would the stepper compare to the servo at 10 ipm cutting steel?
using the same drive rations (2:1, 5TPI), that means 100 RPM, so the stepper will probably be at full torque
a very latrge stepper might not be though
um.. wtf is this doing on the ubuntu website "Restart your computer, remove the CD and boot back into Windows"
hey, i have 24V applied to input 1, but when i take it away EstopSense doesnt revert back to false... any idea why?
gotta get back to work,wiring up the usc tonite
Adam_, you'll need to check the manual. I think estop was turned into a read/write pin at some point - there's some handshaking that has to go on (I think)
yeah there is an EstopWrite
but i dont use it
im just sensing
what I'm saying is that it may need something more than just being hooked to an input pin
but I don't know what that something is :)
no it's not an i/o pin
im new to these configs... its still a little mysterious to me... but i can see that EstopSense is a 'bit' signal
thus it has an ON/OFF state
and its linked to input 1
and to emc-enable-in
and emc-enable-in is an IN pin
if i throw not at the end of the input1 link, then emc thinks the estop is on and wont let me do anything
but i cant get the voltage at input 1 to switch this for me
linksp EstopSense m5i20.0.in-1-not right?
* fenn doesnt have an m5i20 to play aorund with
yeah. this is a simple way that i checked that emc-enable-in was going to false and disabling things for me
or is m5i20.0.in-1-not a parameter?
i dont think so
i know im missing something simple
but im not fluent in this yet
ok google tells me in-01-not is a pin
newsig EstopSense bit
linksp EstopSense <= m5i20.0.in-01
linksp EstopSense => iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in
for HAL digital inputs, generally a regular and an inverted form is available: in-NN and in-NN-not
i want the non inverted, i just inverted it to test that the estop was in fact tripping
my problem is that the 24V at input 1 can be removed and EstopSwitch doesnt see it
it doesnt change to false
you might need a pull-down resistor
check the voltage on the actual pin
with a multimeter
its definitely going from 24 to 0
i thought maybe i was missing some code
would those 3 lines above be enough? is that properly linking the input?
you have to add the m5i20 functions to a thread of course
besides that i think it should work
addf m5i20.0.digital-in-read servo-thread 1
this wouldl be the line you want
ok, its there
did you attach a ground to the opto input?
if you short the two input contacts together, does the input change state?
(don't do this with the 24V signal still connected)
u mean, attach pin1 to pin 2?
if you do that, and the input doesn't change, then the problem is somewhere between the terminals and EMC
what would that do.... doesnt it need power to activate the input?
if it does turn off, then the problem is in the circuit it's connected to
you said if you power it then un-power it, the input bit changes frmo 0 to 1, but never goes back to 0
not exactly... the bit doesnt change either way
it doesnt seem to be seeing the input
oh. I thought you saw one transition and not the other
and shorting the terminals doesnt do anything.... (i dont know why it would)
are you looking at the bit itself, or a signal connected to it?
err - so you have two halmeters open?
the signal is definitely switching (via voltmeter)
Adam_: and there's current going through the opto right?
disconnect the bit from the signal
yeah there is
hold up i dont know if i checked the actual pin in the halmeter, ill do that
and you're probing the two input terminals, not one terminal plus a known ground?
(with the physical voltmeter)
ok, the pin switches to false when i connect the 24V
but estopsense doesnt
do 'halcmd show all *estop*'
no i have to probe both... the powersupply doesnt work as a node relative to the ground... it seems to be two out of phase ac signals that average to dc
oh damn its case sensitive
show sig EstopSense
when i did that it stated 03 and 07 as the input and output pins... is that my problem?
you want something like
bit TRUE EstopSense
hahha it works!!
i didnt realize it wanted pin 3
i was trying to use input1.. i switched it all to 3 and it toggles
thanks very much
03fenn 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man1/halui.1: added teleop/joint pins
fenn: thanks for your halui improvements and for improving the docs with it
i'm thinking about adding a man page for emcsh and friends
man pages are great - you just type 'man whatever' and it pops up with what you need
hehe i found a bug that causes the robot visualization to go berserk
03fenn 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: limit teleop jogging to XYZABC because UVW doesn't make sense
03fenn 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/scara/scara.ini: missing halfile causes emc not to load
does the wiki support tables?
the wiki - wiki says it can if certain plug-ins are installed, just wondering if they are.
I'm pretty sure that tables work
using the | | notation in the instructions
ok - I'll give it a shot once I have all the info condensed
grarr i know there's some stupid c library function that gives me the length of an int
but google is being coy
not just for ints :)
sizeof is not a function nor is it part of a library :P
it's a compiler function
or at least it really looks like one, because of the parentheses :)
technically it's an operator
i'm going to flaunt my apathy and call it a function though
03fenn 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/task/taskintf.cc: new code doesnt break when you have axes out of order, for example XYZC which has a mask of 39 and 4 axes. this change tightens the error checking a bit too since axes cant be 0
03fenn 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/scara/scara.ini: it wasn't the R axis anyway; now works in teleop mode (again?)
Has anyone here ever installed emc2 on Feisty Fawn?
Can anyone hear me? Am I logged in OK?
highoctanejg: yes we can hear you
highoctanejg: you will have to compile it yourself, the official packages are for Ubuntu 6.06 LTS only
[12:47:39] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Why_aren_t_there_packages_for_Ubuntu_7_04_Feisty_Fawn http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Simulator_on_Ubuntu_Feisty_Fawn_7_04
if you want to control hardware and you are not a pro at patching and compiling kernels, I recommend you use Ubuntu LTS and the official packages
if you want to run the simulator only, the compile is much easier, so if you have some experience building from source code you should give it a try
if you don't have any experience building things from source, then you should use LTS
What is LTS?
Ubuntu 6.06 LTS, also called Dapper Drake.
It's the version that is supported for security bugfixes for 5 years -- LTS means "Long Term Support"
Oh. Yeah. I started with that. But it did not have proper support for my video drivers, intel 845g. So i had to update to Feisty Fawn.
I realize I need to compile it myself. I have been attempting to compile it, but am getting hung up at a certain point in the process. I am wondering if anyone here has ever done that.
I have built the simulator version on feisty, but not the real version suitable for controlling hardware
was it pretty straight forward?
unfortunately I really need to drive in to the office .. I'm already late...
OK. Thanks for your help.
highoctanejg: I think there were some important problems keeping version 2.1.7 from working on feisty; the wiki instructions say to use CVS TRUNK.
besides whatever fixes I made in CVS TRUNK I don't remember any gotchas
I'll be around later, and a fair number of the other people here also have experience compiling emc, so if you show the error you're getting using http://pastebin.ca/
somebody may be able to help
highoctanejg: do you want to drive a machine with emc2 on feisty?
alex_joni: yes, I want to drive a machine with emc2 on feisty
highoctanejg: is your video card 'on the motherboard'?
yes, it is.
Normally - on-board vidoe that uses shared memory do not work with realtime. You would be better off sticking a old video card into the computer which would allow you to run dapper
older video card
Oh, really. So, even if I got emc2 running on Feisty, I would still have video card issues because it would not work with real-time linux?
you would have issues because of the video chipset, not because of Feisty
I guess what I meant was... I have spent two days trying to get this video driver to display at 1024x768... finally got that right by updating to Feisty, and now emc2 doesn't work. So, I was going to try compiling it. Have I been wasting my time completely here?
it's possible :(
have you run any latency tests on that PC?
if you can boot from the LiveCD (even at the wrong resolution), you should run the latency tests as described here:
[14:46:58] <SWPadnos> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting
SWPadnos, by the way. Does Feisty come with the real-time kernel installed, or do you have to compile it? If so, how difficult is that?
it does not come installed - you'll have to compile it
it isn't so hard to patch and compile, it's configuring the kernel "just so" that's time consuming
I don't think I've figured out a good formula for Feisty (and gutsy is coming in a few weeks anyway)
Even though I want to get 6.06 installed from CD so I can use emc2, I am interested in developing possibly.
welcome aboard! :)
if you want to get started with 6.06, then it may be best to install an old cheap video card - something from Matrox or a low end nvidia (using the open source driver - their proprietary one is fast but not compatible with RT)
O.K. - I'll see what I can dig up. By the way, what is emc2 like without realtime?
err - what do you mean?
will emc2 run without realtime linux kernel?
you can build it as a simulator, and it will do everything except I/O
Oh, I see.
yes, but you can't control a machine that waty
Does emc2 control industrial I/O cards other than just parallel ports?
from at least 5 or 6 companies
highoctanejg: what are you planning on using emc2 for?
Controlling my CNC machine.
[15:01:05] <SWPadnos> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
highoctanejg: what kind of machine?
and more or less the same info, I think: http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_weblinks/catid,11/Itemid,7/lang,en/
err - hi Adam_ :)
haha you know two people use this not just me
I am the real adam
"if the real Adam should not be able to perform his duties, the runner-up will have to take his place"
true, I am leaving my post next week so that will be the case
Moving to Bermuda for a cnc managment position
CNC stone work its pretty cool
CMS brembana machine
using osai's xp based control
on the machines
but if you need consulting services in the winter, let me know ;)
I will switch it to linuxcnc
skunkworks: cnc routers
jlmjvm: did you see someone is looking for a wiki on 'closed loop' steppers.
jlmjvm, Have you done anything with that pico card?
yes,gotta try to get that done this weekend
highoctanejg: what controlls are used now?
wiring it up right now,have the whole plate from the control box here
should have a motor spinning today,hopefully
skunkworks: I have used different controls. Mainly wincnc, but also indexer lpt, mach3, and others.
I am not sure if anybody here is in western canada, But i am looking for a reliable supplier that ships quickly. Mostly purchasing 3 flute high helix EM's for AL, also some 5-6 flute ultra high helix EM's for SS.
I have tried KBC and the niagra EM's but they dont even stock them
[15:11:24] <SWPadnos> http://www.mscdirect.com
highoctanejg: don't give up on emc2 - once you get your hardware straitened out - I think you will love it. very powerful.
yes,its worth the effort
i already love it.
I am also having a bastard of a time finding a NST30 facemill, or even just a shell and holder.
I first tried emc about 2 years ago. I had a BDI CD, and could never install it. SO, i gave up. I love ubuntu, though. It looks and feels more natural than XP or Mac OS.
highoctanejg: same here.
Ubuntu was an excellent choice
it's excellent for getting new users, but I'm convinced we need a headless / low graphics distribution also
I'll occasionally build a virtual machine of other distros but ubuntu always wins out
Low graphics distribution? For what? Do the graphics cause performance issues?
highoctanejg, well, what have we been saying about realtime and onboard graphics? :)
also nvidia drivers
and other things
Point taken. So emc2 can run on older machines without problems, right?
EMC has the ability to run the machine on one PC, and have the UI remote, so why bother having a full office suite and web browser/email and all that stuff on the PC that directly controls the machine
for the most part. it seems that a P3-800 or so is a sweet spot for RT performance
* cradek hugs his collection of P3 machines
and matrox cards
CPU speed isn't really related to latency, and latency is the killer when you're trying to generate steps on a parport
and the other killer is I/O speed, but that's another issue entirely :)
You mean to tell me you can control emc from a remote computer, in the same facility, or even from the internet?
closed loop servo machines using encoder counting cards are actually less of a load on emc than steppers are. (unless your using hardware step generation)
highoctanejg: you can control/monitor it from several places if you want
I used to develop with my Windows PC using Cygwin/X to connect to the little kiosk PC for the mill
* skunkworks goes in for the kill
I couldn't stand using the 800x600 screen when I had 3 1280x1024 monitors on the other conputer
free is a nice price, but freedom is better (it has that too of course)
While on the subject, is there anything in ubuntu settings that increases the font sixe in all programs?
hey did you see our photos in digital machinist? it showed our rigid tapping demo part too
skinnypuppy1334: yes, increase dpi in font preferences/advanced
SWPadnos/All: OK, I have done a latency test.
how bad is it? ;)
cradek: is it on line somewhere?
skunkworks: no it's on glossy dead tree
SWP: I don't know how to read the figures yet... Does the test just keep running indefinitely?
i did a latency test,didnt look good
highoctanejg, yes it does, until you press ctrl-c
what are the numbers in the "max lat" column?
highoctanejg: yes. As it is running - you don't want any overruns. also you want to take note of the max lat.
(when you launch programs, drag them around, run glxgears, etc)
surf the internet - open and close applications..
and listen to SWPadnos
I got mine WAY down going from an onboard agp to an older pci vid. Whole system was faster after that
SWPadnos: lat max as low as 7500 and as high as 13000.
im showing overruns
Mine went from somewhere near 7000000 to only 26000
how about "ovl max" and "overruns"?
SWPadnos: no overruns, ovl max is 14500
oh right - it's ovl_max I was thinking of
that's not too bad actually
highoctanejg: you win
make sure you mess with it for a couple of minutes
skinnypuppy1334: you lose
jlmjvm: you lose too...
Yeah cradek, I tested the amd machine and it is down in the 16000 range after letting run a long time
What is the best latency you can hope for? What configuration will accomplish it?
skinnypuppy1334: only thing you changed was the video card to pci?
Think the no cache on the celeron was the prob
heh - well, I've gotten ~200 ns on one computer :)
but that was with no X, and almost every service disabled
Yep that was all I did on the celeron comp to get that low, I trimmed an extra 2000 off slimlining the bios
the best you can get will be with smp, but that's a very advanced setup, and certainly not necessary for using emc
that's what I got the 200 lat on - a Core 2 duo in text mode
now if only I could reproduce that config ...
for emc and especially a servo machine, if you get overruns=0 you'll be fine
Is the latency especially important for the accuracy of the timing of the steps, or what?
Cradek my overruns also went to 0 with the swap to pci on that machine
it's not necessarily accuracy, it's more the dastest you can generate steps without locking up the PC
| lat min| ovl min| lat avg| lat max| ovl max| overruns
RTD| -2027| -2069| 3348| 7955| 141268| 419
419 > 0
419 >> 0
any positive number is greater than zero
You guys are using that rtai iso?
no, the EMC2 liveCD
Adam_: the test suite is included with emc
cant believe my numbers are that bad
I tried that test suite on its own it kernel panicked on me
jlmjvm time to start turning stuff off in the bios
k,all unused ports
something must be wrong,emc wont even start
if you don't ctrl-c out of the latency test - and just close the termial - emc will not start because the latency test is actually still running.
but now that he isn't here - he didn't see that.
how do you stop it?
i think /etc/init.d/realtime stop should work, but there's probably a better way
ctrl + c to stop
I think that is just standard to things running terminal
I think I have reopend terminal and re-ran the latency test - which takes off where it was. then you can ctrl-c it.
but don't qoute me on that.
is Q a g-code word? because RPQ would work for roll/pitch/yaw and wouldnt conflict with UVW
R P Q are all already used
before you bother to look, just let me tell you that there are no free letters :-)
E was the last one
gcode is obsolete
the boss has an interesting scheme to not run out of words
you can use the same word over
like there's a facing canned cycle that takes center, size, some clearances, feed
G173 X_ Y_ Z_ X_ Y_ Z_ P_ P_ F_
first xyz are start/center, next xyz are size/depth
some cycles have a different plunge feed, so you specify F_ F_
I'm not sure I like it, but it's an interesting solution
for that kind of case, if you don't need a separate plunge feed, you can leave the last F_ off
before i fell through this time portal, i could swear that the .ini files said AXES = X Y Z A
03fenn 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/task/taskintf.cc: previous change breaks sim-lathe and other configs that rely on AXES= number for assignment of joint numbers; revert until we can figure out a solution that works for everyone
fenn: irc is just rotting your brain
like a fine cheese
fenn: I'm just glad that irc aint got smell-o-vision
fenn: More like Balut than cheese
fenn: or Durian Fruit
I have a question for you guys, why is it when I home my Y-axis it sets co-ordinates to 0.000 but when I home my x-axis its sets my co-ordinates to 5.000 :|
either HOME in your ini file is 5.000, or you have some offsets
home is 0 in my ini
[16:25:54] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?CoordinateSystems
this is a great new page that explains all about offsets and coordinate systems
has 802.11n been finalized yet?
acording to everthing you can buy at bestbuy it is..
WE've boycotted BestBuy about 4-5 years ago
it's not afaik
[16:40:38] <skunkworks> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/geckodrive/message/13108
I for some reason is humming a tune from the wizard of oz
You know what that means.... skunkworks you'll have an LOT of tech support calls to answer now
* fenn hears the sound of computers crashing in the distance
computers, cnc machines, etc
hey, we dont have our z servo yet, and we want to use the machine
I got a laptop that has everything on it... DVD burner, build in fdd, usb2, firewire, parallel and serial port, card-reader, 1440x1080 internal resolution, 768MB, 60GB, P4 3GHz, 802.11b/g, but the battery life is like 1Hr, so I dont use it as much as a laptop than I do as a portable desktop...
but we get a joint2 error
we use: linksp Zpos-fb <= m5i20.0.enc-02-position
I have the ability to get a different laptop, what ya think/suggest?
then: linksp Zpos-fb => axis.2.motor-pos-fb
that gives us readouts, but as soon as we move the z with the machine on it gives us an error due to the feedback
how can we get around this? can we link zpos-fb straight to the display without the feedback?
you can increase the ferror limit
heh - that is a really good idea.
our z gives us about 5.5 in so just go to 6
that would be smart
I like that way alot
easier than playing with hal
is machining that penguin from the sample files the final test?
you guys have already tuned the pid loops?
I need to test a bit
the machine does what i tell it
I want to make some part and check my dimensions etc.
that was a quick conversion in my book.
seems you had just started.
about 2 weeks
well I had you guys
nice bunch - aren't they
better support than any manufacturer pretty much
one thing I would liek to work on is incremental spindle speed with the joypad
Here's an interesting story for you... Yesterday, I installed EMC2 from the live CD(ubuntu 6.06) onto my hard drive. It would not display in 1024x768 video mode, no matter what I did (only 800x600). I upgraded to Feisty Fawn. I now had video support, but no emc2. I thought about compiling it, but too much work setting up the realtime stuff. So, i reinstalled 6.06 from the Live CD.
A vibration sensore on the table that feedsback to the joypad
Lo and behold! I now had support for my intel driver in 1024x768 video mode when I rebooted, and EMC2 works properly. Go figure!
why isnt someone working on emc in xubunu?
if the monitor isn't on while dapper is booting - it defaults to only to low res.
Yes, on dapper now.
highoctanejg: re-run the latency test.
just to be sure
bbl running latency's
skunkworks, do you know.. If the network cable is not hooked up when you boot, do you have to reboot after connecting in Ubuntu?
hioctanejg did you install all the 6.06 updates. My res is low until after
Aargghhh.... I just rebooted to get the network up and my resolution is back to 640x480 with no other choice in the screen resolution.
What's that skinnypuppy? Your res is low until after what??/
Run the live updates
Here's another trick, boot into the live cd. Find xorg.conf , mount your hardrive with root partition, then sudo cp xorg.conf /media/YOUR HDD MOUNT/etc/X11
You may also want to look at what the differences are b/t that 7.04 live cd xorg.conf and the one on 6.06
i can't... i didn't have a 7.04 live cd
it was an update
highoctanejg: I have had these issues when I didn't have the monitor plugged in/on when i booted dapper.
or switched to the wrong computer on the kvm
I'll second that it doesn't like not finding a monitor on the boot up
Latency test: Lat Min -1793, Ovl Min -1800, Lat Avg 2190, Lat Max 10140, Ovl Max 10479
What do you think about that?
Abit NF7 S2.0 400Mhz FSB, AMD 3200+, 1 gig PC4000 OCZ, Geforce FX5500
is this something that I can improve very much in you opinion?
that is great for a stepper machine. servos are not as taxing
I am a servo machine with: SEM 140V 30A servos, Servo Dynamic drives, MeSA 5i20, 7i33 7i37
Anilam d10 series glass scales
with that hardware, you'd be OK with 1/10 the CPU speed :)
I would have bet your are a human
I am machine
I eat AL
but you doesn't have to call me Johnson
I run VMware on this machine also
Xp pro install for mastercam
Thats why we have a decent pc
so - I think you are the first person to use external scales. How is it working out?
must not be any backlash.
weird scale though 2525 per inch
Adam_: what video are you using?
are you sure that's not 2540 per inch?
* skunkworks would think so also
SWPandos, I need to get a real answer from anilam
I'd bet it's 0.01mm, or 2540/inch
2525 was what I came up with
how did you measure?
or calculate or whatever :)
I used a mic
over what range of motion?
very half assed
a few inches, prob not enough
yes 2540 would make more sense
I think RogerN used scales aswell
not sure though
So I called the anilam Fax line, they just fed me a bunch of jibberish couldnt understand a thing. I better call there 1-800
or use the google to look up the part number
So I have 10micron resolution on the scales
so 4/10 of an inch
Guys, what can I do to increase the font size in emc ?
I'd followed cradeks advice earlier about preferences,font, increase size... restarted X and Xchat is better, as well as firefox. But I'm straining in emc
AXIS will react to the gnome "DPI" preference in emc 2.2, but it doesn't in 2.1.7.
Thanks jepler, sounds like it's just around the corner then
in 2.1.7 you can use the X Resource Database to set the font that axis uses for most things -- see section The X Resource Database of http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/axis/
Thank you again Jepler!
"*Axis*optionLevel: widgetDefault" combined with "*font: Helvetica -24" would make most things in AXIS have a 24-pixel Hevetica (sans serif) font, I think
hm that doesn't work...
Axis*Label*font: Helvetica -24
this pair of lines changes the font on Labels but not on Buttons and other types of widgets
Axis*font: Helvetica -24
this gets almost everything...
put those lines in the file ~/.Xresources, and arrange for this command to be run when you log in, or at any rate before you run emc: xrdb -load ~/.Xresources
Where is this going, X Resources?
many "old" X applications are quite configurable in this way but the art is mostly lost
Axis*font is the font used for "almost everything besides the DRO", and Axis*Togl*font is the one used for the dro; for unfortunate technical reasons they have to be specified in different formats
well that's not quite true -- Axis*font can be specified in the way I show Axis*Togl*font being specified
you can find the -*-*-*- format string for any font available on your system with the program 'xfontsel', if you can figure out how to use it.
now a basic question how do I get that into Xresources, I dont know where it is
~/.Xresources is the name of a file ".Xresources" in your home directory (~)
you would create this file with a text editor and add the lines above
Jepler, thanks. I'll try this out when I get a few minutes.
wow thats really nice having the DRO fonts big in relation to everything else
on the one hand unix and X have all these great configurable things .. on the other hand you need a manual published in 1996 or someone who's been using linux for a decade and a half or you'll never know about them
What about Bold?
Adam_: change "medium" to "bold", xrdb -load ~/.Xresources, and restart emc
That's unfortunately so jepler
* skunkworks still knows how to sort with the DIR command in dos.
jepler that is pretty thanks for that
this line gives an even bigger font .. starting to get silly-big: Axis*Togl*font: -*-bitstream vera sans mono-bold-r-*--50-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
That working out for you good Adam? I'm diggin on fleebay or I'd be on it too
whats that paste img site?
imagebin.org is one
ahh i was trying pasteimg.org for some reason
[18:31:19] <Adam_> http://imagebin.org/10536
[18:31:21] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/my-fonts.png
I will try silly big
yikes - now jepler - can you make them transparent.. :)
Adam that looks great
Adam_: can you please post your xresources file on pastebin.ca ?
jepler: In the top right corner, three cyan buttons X X X ???
JymmmEMC: he could tell you but...
LawrenceG what was the line that jepler pasted earlier in the convo with courier as the font I lost that...
yeah it's supa-sekrit
then I can give it to you
13:14:11 <jepler> Axis*Togl*font: -*-courier-medium-r-*-*-34-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
I f'ed it up
[18:40:10] <Adam_> http://pastebin.com/m2a70b56d
thats all it is
so what do all the -* do dads mean jepler?
different things to set on the font
Adam , what is the cone icon with the two arrows b/t perspective and clear live plot icons?
I noticed if i just change the font size for example i get errors
skinnypuppy1334 not sure what you are talking about here, you mean the tool point on the live plot?
Icon just to the left of the chip brush icon, I do not have when that same file is open, not the tool tip indicator
oh the perspective view
that puts you in rotate mode
when it's down, the left mouse button rotates the view instead of panning
it's probably useful just for touchscreens
cradek I just get pan
Take a l ook at mine.
[18:47:35] <skinnypuppy1334> http://imagebin.org/10538
Rotate is on center mouse button
middle mouse button rotates, left pans, right zooms
the rotate icon is new
newer than .1.7 ?
it's in 2.2
Guys... I got a question. What is the best irc client for Ubuntu. I am using mIRC for windows right now.
skinnypuppy1334 yours looks just like mine...
you have to click the button to use...
I am not sure whats going on
Adam, what version of emc are you using? You have an icon I don't.
Unless I am blind I see the same icons
highoctanejg: I'm used xchat, gaim and irssi
I feel like a D.A. ... it's JEPLERS http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/my-fonts.png
highoctanejg: but most of the time irssi (text-mode client), it needs a bit to get used to when switching from mIRC
* skunkworks uses whatever is installed by default
skinnypuppy1334 you had me going back and forth for a few minutes
I had me doing the same. Ha ! sorry
That's how it is when the damn dogs bark all night and ya don't get a wink a sleep.. my bad
Adam_: thanks... lost my scrollback... what wad the filename for those two lines... tried .Xdefaults, .Xresources
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-09-21.txt
I am now here from my ubunto 6.06 linux box at 1024x768 with EMC2 installed.
Now Im on my laptop with WinXP
so - what was the issue with the video?
I don't know. After my video reverted to 640x480, i fiddled with xorg.conf (changed i810 video driver to intel) that stopped X windows from working
Then i changed xorg.conf back, and shut the pc down. Then powered up again, it came up at my monitor's full resolution, 1280x1024.
it sounds like there's a problem with monitor detection/identification (DDC)
Two days work, it's finally fixed and i don't know why.
you may want to fiddle with the DDC settings for X, and possibly use specific timings
DDC settings? I wouldn't know where to start.
one note: the Ubuntu login screen will be at the first resolution in the list, so if you want the login screen to be 1280x1024, you can just remove all the other modes (or put a couple after 1280x1024, in case 1280 doesn't work for some reason)
the DDC settings are sometimes different for each driver
it'll be something like Option "UseEDID" "false"
highoctanejg: on the other hand, you should follow IBM's advice
never touch a running system
if you got it to work, and you don't know how, it's most likely you won't repeat the performance :D
just look up your monitor specs and put HorizSync and VertRefresh in the file
or, try replacing your video cable
or google for a modeline
no, it's NOT a modeline problem
or leave it alone and hope it boots the same way every time :)
Yeah. No kidding. --- actually I know how, it just doesnt make sense. Install to HD from 6.06 emc2 livecd. Update to Feisty Fawn. Reinstall to HD from original CD. Voila! It works. Sometime I'll try it again to confirm... NOT!
are you using a kvm type video switchbox?
no kvm here. I have rebooted a few times since. Seems to be reliable now.
it's possible that will change if the cables are moved, but here's hoping it doesn't
Now... It's time for me to learn EMC.
err - good luck :)
Thanks for the goodwill.
have fun - come back soon
Is there a name for the braided jacket wire that dro scales use? I'm looking for some 4wire 16 gage to hook the geckos up to the steppers
highoctane is now known as highoctanexp
highoctanexp is now known as highoctane
skinnypuppy not sure what its called but i think you can get it at digikey
lots of $$$ per foot
skinnypuppy1334: UNITRONIC BUS CABLE..
skinnypuppy1334: they carry it in lots of configurations with twisted pair non twisted/twisted pair with power in the center..
but it's not in particularly cheap
how about shielded cat5?
the unitronic cabling is good(really really good)
we run the fieldbus in the machines we build at work using them
I have that type is that what you mean
that's just the cover though..
I am sure you can get it with cable in it htough
the |||||| isnt the wire itself..
the cable / wiring goes inside..
Yeah, I was looking for the braided jacket, something to keep the hot chips from carbide tool flycutting off the stepper cables
hmmm. anyone know of any flexible stainless liquid-tight cable armor?
so far, all I've seen is "pick any two"
why would you need liquid tight armor if you are running a cable inside of it?
so you don't get liquids inside the endpoints
yeah, but obviously the endpoints would have a seal to prevent that
normally, you can seal to a liquid-tight conduit ...
I can probably do without the stainless part, I can get metal liquid-tight
Here's the wire I was looking at. looks watertight enought just not hot chip proof
[19:30:47] <skinnypuppy1334> http://cgi.ebay.com/18-4-shielded-stranded-CNC-Stepper-motor-hook-up-wire_W0QQitemZ330148014129QQihZ014QQcategoryZ71394QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
just curious is all
what did they say about curiosity and the cat?
"but the cat died knowing" :)
SWPadnos: i've got some lying on my bench, but i found it in the scrapyard. so, it does exist :)
I'm pretty sure I saw some on my friend's prototrak as well, but I'm not sure it was sealed
that's where I got the idea actually
SWPadnos: on the subject of wiring, what are you using for encoder wire/cable?
I have some low-capacitance 4-pair shielded wire
(each pair shielded, plus overall shield)
4 or 5 twisted par? brand? number?
4 pair, 3 for A/B/Z differential plus power
high flex or standard pvc?
Belden, Alpha, or ?????
good night all
see you Alex
is it pricey?
not off eBay ;)
goto quabbin.com, and enter 8608
it's PVC, I don't think it's "high-flex"
Apparently the stuff is called overbraiding and is hot in the tuner crowds.
[19:39:24] <skinnypuppy1334> http://www.bsr-aerotek.com/store/index.php?cPath=2_396&osCsid=70nuevp3fn0dbmr67f8qlqf785
that's stainless, you want copper
or go to an auto parts store and get hydraulic hoses
stainless is good for toughness
eh, what are you going for? noise resistance or abrasion?
Errr just to keep hot chips from melting
sounded like abrasion/hot chips to me
[19:40:54] <skinnypuppy1334> http://cgi.ebay.com/18-4-shielded-stranded-CNC-Stepper-motor-hook-up-wire_W0QQitemZ330148014129QQihZ014QQcategoryZ71394QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
they also make stuff specifically for wire bundles, called 'cable sleeving'
overbraiding, hmm not for stuff that moves alot..
you'll have a hard time getting wires through the hose stuff because it doesn't open up the way sleeving does
I'll look at the sleevind. Just didn't know the name it goes by
skinnypuppy1334: shielded just means electrical shielding
another name is 'expandable sleeving'
you probably want nomex
that stainless sleeving eats away everything it touches..
Really? Why do they use it on DRO's then?
THE STUFF ON EBAY
that's not the same thing
[19:44:26] <anonimasu> http://www.bsr-aerotek.com/store/index.php?cPath=2_396&osCsid=70nuevp3fn0dbmr67f8qlqf785
yeah I was struggling to get there
Ihave offically machined succesfully now
i machined something once
it was okay.
just got the joystick working in world-coordinates on the tripod prototype
had to d/l source. 2.1.7 binaries don't support the new joystick functions
I very much appreciate the help on this
This thing is a hacked-together prototype intended to let me work out the kinematics. You realy want video of that?
as long as you've got clothes on, sure :)
jogging a tripod with a joystick sounds pretty cool to me
It's easier to do with a cartesian machine. joints = axes in that mode.
that's what makes this cool
I take little credit for getting this working. I'm just implementing at this point.
One of the lines just basklashed on me, so I've got a big knot on the B motor.
Oh, and I haven't resolved the calibraiton issues yet. Uncalibrated operation makes all the linear moves look like smiles/frowns.
what are you going to do with the full size model?
sidewalk graffiti, of course
sand art :)
i think this type of machine is suited for "contour crafting" (squirting a concrete building out in layers)
although a hexapod would be stiffer
The full-sized unit is supposed to fly a ghost around my front yard for Halloween
That is cool - what are you going to use for servos?
with the wireless joystick - it should be fun chasing poor little kids around your yard.
I'm using steppers for now. I do look forward to antagonizing the little monsters.
jeeper - it is raining cats and dogs here. got really really dark
Question about the HAL command "loadusr" - there's a "-W" option in the file I'm using, but I can't find a reference to that in the doc. It appears to make HAL wait until the module has loaded.
If I omit it, the next line can't find the parameter that should be loaded.
If I manually execute the commands using the command line, it works fine without the -W. The only difference I see is relative timing of execution.
there are two options, and I don't recall which is which
one makes halcmd wait until the program has finished executing, the other makes halcmd wait for the component to signal that it's ready
-w and -W are the spellings of the two options :)
[21:45:07] <jepler> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/halcmd.1.html
explains -w, -W, and -Wn
I think halcmd help loadusr also does, but maybe omits -n
does anyone have a good example of pid tuning for servos?
VAPT is way cool
Hi there.. I've just setup EMC2 with my gantry style-belt driven mill, and i'm really having problems configuring ini file to get some correct movement
How can I know the input/output scale?
ok, output scale is not relevant in your case
input_scale needs to define the number of steps / unit
say your motor has 400 steps/ rev
do you microstep?
ok, so 800 steps/rev effectively?
not micro, but half
or was the stepper 200
ok, 800 steps to turn the motor shaft 1 rev.
now we need to find out how far the machine moves when it turns one rev
you said belt driven..
can you be a bit more precise about it?
is the belt fixed, and does the motor travel along with the axis?
yes, that's it
or is the motor fixed, and the belt is looped around the motor?
Hi, I have a problem with the live CD: my nvidia network card is not recognized (but it works on ubuntu 7.04)
vdKroon: ok, so belt fixed, and motor travels with the axis
ales_joni: the belt has a pitch of 3 mm
vdKroon: I'd say that for one revolution of the motor shaft you travel forward 2 * Pi * diameter of pulley on the motor
Is it possible to install EMC on Ubuntu 7.04? Any help is appreciated, thanks
I would think it would be directly related to the number of teeth on the pinion gear..
skunkworks: you would, wouldn't you :P
alez_joni: pulley: 15 teeth, 3mm pitch
vdKroon: how large is it?
err, that answers my question :D
15 * 3 mm = 45 mm circumference
so one revolution of the motor equals 45 mm travel
alex_joni: thanks, but it looks like I am out of luck.
hugomatic: indeed :)
hugomatic: that doesn't mean that you can't do it on your own, but it's not a 5 minute job
hugomatic: might be better to try to address the problem with dapper
vdKroon: following so far?
yes, for now
vdKroon: ok, so 800 steps move 45 mm
alex_joni: What I really care about is getting the nic to work.
so, we have 800 steps/ rev and 45mm travel/rev
vdKroon: how many steps/mm is the question :)
hugomatic: what kind of nic?
How can I install packages without access to the repository?
hugomatic: worst case: copy them to an usb stick, carry over
My nic is an nvidia integrated with the mobo
hugomatic: the simplest solution I see is get a 5$ network card, plug it in
vdKroon: you got it :)
ok, that's input_scale
vdKroon: for now, lateron it will be named SCALE
alex_joni: OK... thanks. It sucks because I bought the damn machine today just for EMC...
that's why I always take the livecd with me when buying a machine for emc2
vdKroon: lateron meaning in future versions of emc2
ok, got it
alex_joni: this is a great idea, I'll remember it for next time
hugomatic: be sure to run a latency test from the live cd too
that's actually the most important factor when buying a machine for emc2
alex_joni: do you know how to figure out which nic driver I am using now?
hugomatic: I would start by looking at 'dmesg'
and see if the nic gets detected at startup
and what driver gets loaded
do you happen to know the brand of the mobo?
lspci | grep -i "net"
I think that'll do it
alex_joni: another thing that gets out of my reach is the accel settings
and velocity settings
vdKroon: those depends on the gantry weight, motor power, etc
alex_joni: thanks, I seem to be using 'forcedeth'. I will google for a Dapper package
vdKroon: start with some lower accel (maybe 20mm/s*s)
this is max accel?
yeah, a kinda conservative value
that means it takes a second to accelerate to a speed of 20mm/sec
put that in the AXIS_* section
and how about default_accel?
vdKroon: next you start messing with max_vel
vdKroon: leave that be for now
default_accel isn't used i think
vdKroon: you start increasing max_vel until it reaches a speed where it's comfortable
not too fast as to be scary/dangerous for the machine (or where it stalls)
ok, with this machine I was working at 2400 mm/min in the past
not too slow either
ok, so you want 40 in there
40 mm / sec
once vel starts working ok, you can go on and mess with accel
what's the difference between stating this data is AXIS section or in TRAJ?
one overrides other?
traj is overall
axis refers just to that motor
traj might limit the head while travelling in XYZ at once
but the idea is to have traj about sqrt(3) larger than xyz
assuming they are equal :)
* alex_joni goes back to sleep
good night all
thank you so much alex
vdKroon: no sweat, lots others around who can help you further
anyone ever try aluminum-specific inserts
how about stepgen_vel & accel settings?
it's a product of some other values?
the recommendation for stepgen limits is that they be "a few percent" higher than the axis limits
ok, so, with a MAX_VEL of 40, should I start with, say, 50?
what is the actual limit the steppers can move?
ok, then that's as high as the stepgen limit should be
you should set the AXIS_n velocity limit a little lower, maybe 36 or so
could someone help me or give me a few starting points/ pointers for tuning a servo system properly.
I am willing to pay gratitude
someone had a good explanation of how to do the ziegler-nichols method, i forget where it went though
I believe there's a wiki page, and possibly a link on the linuxcnc.org website
ok I think I have that started properly, I have increased P untill my servo oscilates (p=26.594 <- got anal with it) before this oscillation was induced the servo would just rotate in 1 direction constantly
the frequency of the oscilation is also very low which had me worried
for some reason it had me worried
:} got my er25 collets in the mail today.... they sure are pretty... great way to end a week
wow those articles on the wiki are really not helpful
"article" may be too strong a word
the links at the bottom
[23:48:22] <LawrenceG> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110168676356&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=001
only 9 days to swim from HK
apperntly my frequency is 0.4Hz
that does sound low
thats what they are doing
and I is 0?
do yo have the current limit on the servo drives set very low?
LawrenceG, I think you've bid against me before. I recognize your ID :)
this mt3 shank has a 10mm drawbar.... mine are 3/8x16... need to get threading going so I can make a new drawbar
or weld some rod the in middle of a 10mm bolt!
now where was that toyota parked....
just pour some molten steel inside it and re-tap
SWPadnos I have not touched the drives, they came out of an old control.
is the table lock on?
when you said the servo would "rotate in one direction constantly", what did you mean?
it just rotated slowly
and never stopped?
yeah I will double check that though
ok, because that's awfully weird, unless P=0
maybe need to adjust the offset on the dac
or feedback isn't working, or there's noise, or ...
ok no the servos move a tiny bit then stop
noise in one direction?
fenn, that would be the case if EMC weren't running, but PID should settle on the correct offset value