sunday again - didn't I say that last weekend?
...and still havne't sodl the engraver.
"yeah yeah, I'm working on it" heard it before.
what are you trying to say?
skunkworks: GET OFF THE FENCE!
would you bid on it?
skunkworks: I think it be dumb for sell something like that that you got for $150, especialyl when you could get some good use out of it, even if just to mill PCB's.
skunkworks: I doubt it at the price you want for it.
skunkworks: Hell, you could just mill PCB's for ppl if nothing else and pay for your garage
skunkworks: there are zillions of electronic projects in the magazines, you could get the artwork, and make the PCB's as ppl ordered them.
even really old ones where the one company that did make the PCB's no long has any stock left.
can't legally do that
setup a big sheet and walk away :)
and not worth running another patch for such small quantity.
black market pcb :)
eric_u: sure you can, just get the authors permission - they like to see their hard work/project thrive.
others only did the "hard work" because they wanted to make money off of it
people are funny about that
I'm guessing most would not like to see someone else making money off their project
Well, you just have a release form that ppl ordering have to sign.
it's doen all the time.
or give the person a percentage of the sale..
skunkworks: there are enogugh projects out there that I don't think you have to worry about it.
Look at every copy of Nuts and Volts as example
Hell look at a simple db25 to terminal strip breakout board
or even a simpel board to make a regulated PS for some funky voltage
resolver to quadture converters.s.
or even the board that jmkasunich made to sit on top of a cap
assuming jmkasunich didn't make his own board, just designed it.
skunkworks: Hell, man you could even place an add on Eagle's website.
JymmmEMC: how much do you think skunkworks could charge for a board?
* skunkworks would probably be sued....
jmkasunich: depends on cost of consumables... but rate * sq mm * run_time
after someone blowes up a few thousand dollar servo
well, an ad on Eagle's site would mean you are willing to manufacture someone elses's board designs
selling machine time basically, not designs
jmkasunich: right, and?
have you looked at prototype board houses?
Yeah, $40 minimum
you can get real boards (chem etched, plated thru holes, silkscreen, etc) for well under $100
and that being the cheap side
jmkasunich: per board or two
if I was skunk, I wouldn't turn on a machine for $40
too much hassle, shipping, processing orders, etc
you do them in bulk, not one job at a time
you mean one customer who wants 10 boards, or 10 customers?
but how hard is it to shove a PCB on a machien, load a file and hit go
no finishing work. padded envlopes are cheap
even the USPS gives boxes awat for free for using Pririty mail with delivery confirmation.
flat rate boxes for up to 70 lbs
for under $10
milled PC boards are the bottom of the barrel in terms of attracting cheapskate customers
they're fine for your own projects, where they mean no shipping, and no waiting
it's a market
its a market that is really hard to make money in
not a huge one, but maybe beer money
(at least if you want to do better than minimum wage)
then you really can't compete with the board shops for quantities. I am def not up to doing something similar to what SWPadnos does.
jmkasunich: did you make your driver board that you designed?
jmkasunich: why did?
skunk started the design, I helped a bit
he made it (because it was for his machine)
ok, but you may not want to spend $100 for testing a design like that.
because I am a cheap skate
might be willing to spend $30-$50 though
I'm a cheap skate
when it's good to go, then hit the houses
most of my projects, I only need 1 or 2 boards
well, could figure out some price that works out for both sides.... maybe $50 for up to 36 sq inches or something
I have a philosophy regarding money-making side jobs
never sell to people like me
because I'm too cheap to have as a customer
jmkasunich: That's ok, the dumpster love you !
I know one guy that has a laser engraver, changes $1/minute and makes on avg $120 per job to students projects and the like
and is still cheaper than a commercial shop
$120 per job means you have a chance to make money
when people sell "real" boards for $50-100, you can't sell machined ones for $120
frm the videos of skunkworks machine, he could easily make $40/hr
if you are forced to compete for the $40 jobs, you don't do so well
so you have a minimum order
if people can meet minumums, they have even more reason to go to a real board shop
jmkasunich: you do know we're tlaking about folks other than yourself, right? ;)
Hell, skunkworks could sell to the ppl on cnczone that are being really cheap and making their own drivers
I don't understand those people at all
they end up spending more money than they would on geckos
who was the uk hookup for that flexible track ?
I need 2m 2 mod
or maybe 1.5
you were just a thought in your daddy's napsack when.....
some discussion was had about wrenches. this is not a wrench, but its a damn good tool and is very well made. ive used it to squash really big cable connections, but the guy who turned me onto it used it like a channel-lock http://www.knipex.com/index.php?id=783&L=1&grpID=61&ukat=iso55&ukat_code=
emc on qnx!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111
cuz qnx is cooler than rtai!!
why are we yelling?
QNX just opened its source up
bcuz we r haxxorz11!!!11!1!!
oh, that's cool
I should look at that
real open or gimmick open?
[01:50:10] <maddash> http://www.qnx.com/legal/licensing/other/source/index.html
I'm grinnin :o), finally got a little shop time and mounted the g203v's onto a heatsink from a Rockford Fosgate Power300 Old School
gimmick open. :(
skinnypuppy1334:did you get any motors yet?
am I obsessive if I issue `aptitude update ; aptitude upgrade` manually at least three times a day?
I was going to get some motors this week , been looking at torque graphs comparing
[02:02:44] <jlmjvm_> http://cgi.ebay.com/CNC-STEPPER-MOTOR_W0QQitemZ200151993074QQihZ010QQcategoryZ57122QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
thats what i have,except single stack
woah are you running 1500 Oz in on x&y?
no,mine are 840 oz in
I can't remember is your mill a 2j manual retrofit or a boss type with emc?
it was a boss with the 2jhead
Are you 1:1 motor to screw ratio or other?
1 to 1
I almost got these but wondered if 800 oz in would be enough.
[02:09:12] <skinnypuppy1334> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130151880631&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003
wow,says they can be used with "open loop confidence"
I keep reading about these "missed" steps, does this affect every single move, or is it cumulative like over thousands of lines ?
it's cumulative, whenever it happens
those wont have the oz in like the square powerpac motors from pacsci
it probably wouldn't happen on every move unless you woefully misconfigure EMC
ive never had a problem with missed steps per say,only problem i ever had was a motor stall from the accel set too high
that sounds like missed steps to me
(also misconfigured :) )
I hope I could configure it with a dro on it....
03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/Master_User.lyx: doc improvements and screenshot updates
03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/config/ (3 files): doc improvements and screenshot updates
jlmjvm, how many amps total is your powersupply?
there are two main kinds of misconfiguration of stepper motors: first, incorrect step waveform timings .. e.g., direction signal not stable when it is required to be by the stepper driver. this leads to a single step being lost now and then.
second, acceleration and velocity settings that are too optimistic. this generally leads to stalls where an axis stops moving for potentially a long period of time (until emc stops or reverses it)
Jep, thank you for the clarification
i ahve been overly optimistic before
my ps is supposed to be 20 amps
jepler: what is "too optimistic"?
the second problem is harder to fix than the first -- in the case of step waveform, you just have to look at datasheets and enter the correct numbers -- sometimes there's a bit of math involved but that's about it. (assuming your computer doesn't have an undiagnosed Unexpected Realtime Delay problem, anyway)
but for acceleration and velocity tuning, it's very much about the worst case -- all three axes accelerating, AND high cutting forces AND you hit that rough spot on the leadscrew AND another big load turns on at just the same moment, and then (that one time in a blue moon) the machine stalls
maddash: put simply, any acceleration or velocity setting that causes your stepper-based machine to stall and lose position
jlmjvm_: well yes but few folks with steppers have the luxury of position feedback
i just got lucky,they were mounted on my 35 dollar ebay motors
they almost went in the garbage can
now find me some nema 17 servos w/encoders for my itty bitty router
you must have the golden touch
just got lucky,that same guy had more of them a few weeks ago
motors almost got throwed away,was having problems getting them going
finally looked at the schematic and figured it out
jepler: you didn't answer my question. does "optimistic" too high or too low of a value?
the 1 im running is so much smoother,faster,and quiter than the factory motor
Pic of the evenings work
jepler: because if the answer includes, "too low," then it could solve my stalling bridgeport problem
[02:29:20] <skinnypuppy1334> http://imagebin.org/10455
wow, it's like watching a geico commercial
maddash:you got a stalling bp?
jlmjvm_: I even posted the grinding sounds it makes
where did you post?
was it z axis?
maddash: "too high", though for full-step drives in particular there is a loss of torque at medium speeds
jlmjvm_: hold on.
as suggested in figure 10 on page 5 of http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/1679.pdf
hm, where can I upload a 11M tgz archive?
for milling machines it's unacceptable to have any parcular velocity below the velocity limit be unusable, because you'll eventually encounter that speed given lines of different angles and feed-rates
maddash:what kinda drives you got?
[02:40:07] <maddash> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZHHYJ3L9
jlmjvm_: the original drives that came with the series I cnc? otherwise, I have no clue
ahh,thought you had geckos maybe
i know a guy not far from here that actually repairs those drives,he has 4 bp mills
my bp had been gutted when i bought it
vpython doesnt let you pick lines circles points, but, i found an old gCADvas.py, it does :) eg: it lets you create a bisector by selecting the 1st and 2nd construction lines http://members.localnet.com/~blanding/cadvas/
document the authors trips thru gcadvas, tkinter, et al ending up with a simpler more native, less library dependant application
notranc is now known as kc6lbj
LawrenceG: Yes sir?
maddash:my z axis motor used to sound like that
he's so annoying
Hi all, I have a noob question but a quick one if any 1 has a minute...
I am trying to program a Pluto-P with Pluto_Servo.rbf, seems to have worked, just wondering if the LED changes at all or just stays dim ?
just wanted to check b4 I go plugging into my machine...
you bet -- and you.
03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/index.tmpl: probably meant stepconf, not stepgen
03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/index.tmpl: remove outdated item
JymmmEMC: you up yet?
Vq^_ is now known as Vq^
what is the lingo for the taps with relieved leading corners that push the chip forward?
jlmjvm: how goes the new territory?
I didn't catch all of it - how is the adaptive feed going? or did you give up on that?
it was trying to work,would error when you moved z+
whenever alex or anyone has any ideas,im ready to test
will be cool when it does
did you hear the wav files that maddash uploaded of his motors?
no - do you have a link?
actually i closed it out last night
is it a lot of trouble to put a video on youtube?
jlmjvm: no - it is really easy
jlmjvm: here are some small steppers making noise http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hdhn_j6PrCw
Question: Can I setup my m5i20 config to switch an output when the machine power is toggled from axis.ngc I cant find anything.
Adam_, use halscope or halshow and look for pins named *machine*
hmmm - no, maybe not
yeah nothing there
the pins are probably labeled estop-something
(bad IMO, but oh well)
so my estop write will output to my relay and trigger my drives
I believe there are separate axis drive-enable outputs for that
but if you're talking about a main contactor, then yes, you could use something from the estop chain (though it needs to be disabled in hardware if a big red button gets hit)
# use this if you have an external estop switch
linksp EstopSense <= m5i20.0.estop-in-not
linksp EstopSense <= m5i20.0.in-15
linksp EstopSense => iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in
linksp EstopWrite => m5i20.0.out-07
linksp EstopWrite <= iocontrol.0.user-enable-out
thats in my hal
estopwrite is switching my relay right now.
estopsense to my big red button?
the big red button needs to disable the relay regardless of what EMC thinks it's doing
it can optionally tell EMC that the machine has been shut off :)
(ie, a separate set of contacts for the input to EMC)
what about spindle power?
tie that to brake on my vfd
that should probably be disabled by the same estop button
I'm not sure which will be better for you - leaving the VFD active and braking, or cutting power to it
that's a decision you'll have to make
usually there's a relay that cuts power, _and_ connects a braking resistor
I had a discussion about electric brakes.... add a timer relay to the REAL ESTOP circuit to engage the brake for n second sthen kill power to that too.
was it to yourself?
[19:27:21] <JymmmEMC> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2A561
[19:32:43] <JymmmEMC> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6C759
most brakes need power to release - they're on when there's no power so that a loss of power prevents things from moving
then just shunt the breaker then =)
[19:43:06] <alex_joni> http://www.planetamoldova.net/anim/invidia.html
[19:48:10] <tomp> http://www.planetamoldova.net/snd/hituri1/Teaser.mp3
* alex_joni wonders how tomp knew that features their greatest hit :)
[19:56:30] <SWPadnos> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=750SxyO2c64
I am still having problems powering my drives up from emc with the relay
what kind of problems?
well I would love to switch a relay when I toggle the machine power on in Axis, this relay would turn on my drives.
I think that's axis.N.amp-enable-out
right, even one is enough I bet (axis.0.amp-enable-out)
yes they all come on together
I am searching would you know where it is
Adam_: you need the following in your hal file:
net machine-enable axis.0.amp-enable-out parport.0.pin-12-out
(adjust the pin number as needed)
Adam_: any hal you want
you can also link it to a m5i20 output
my line was just an example
yeah I am going to go off of the 7i37 output
Adam_, if you have a 7i33 already, then there are enable outputs from that
you don't have to use another I/O pin
pins 13, 25, 37, and 49 are enables 0-3
not enough voltage off that
thats why the 7i37
I am pulling 24V down
ok - that makes sense
a small reed relay could also do the trick
(to switch a larger contactor coil)
But I can do it by adding a line to my io hal file
ok something like this: net machine-enable axis.0.amp-enable-out m5i20.0.out-05
would that work?
assuming the pin names are correct, yes :)
is the => there for reference or is it required?
visual only, not required
what about the "linkpp"
deprecated, net replaces it
linkpp is a old, discouraged command
the "=>" is for reference
linkpp is baad
one sec for test
it creates confusing signals with the same name as a pin
I love you guys
^ that meant it wored
err - thanks
Adam_: glad it does
good night all
see ya Alex
anybody have exp. with anilam D-10 glass scales?
SWPadnos;I have a power supply question,im looking at a 800va54v15a or a 800va63v12a power supply
gonna use it on a servo setup,im thinking the 54v15a is what i need
is this for the steppers or servos?
what are the servo ratings?
(I'm assuming you're using Jon's drives, so they can handle either voltage)
believe they are 160v 3000 rpm electo craft
oh, for the G320 you need the 54V if that's an AC rating
what's the current rating of the servos
the 54v has more amps than the 63v
thats what i was thinking i needed
better for accel, worse for top speed
both are 120 dollars
what current are the servos rated for (continuous)?
im only gonna set this 1 up for 100 ipm
or 500 rpm motor speed
54v should give me close to 1000 motor rpm
dont know the continous rating off hand
do you have the Ke and Kt and continuous current rating for the servos?
those are what you need to choose a supply
lemmee look right quick
can i email ya a pdf that ec sent me
err - I'd rather not get that involved :)
when you xfwd, there's no way to keep the app running, like you can with screen and connect from somewhere else and continue working is there?
or something like that - don't remember the exact name
I got window coverings, and scrn capture so far =)
heh - me too. I'm pretty sure there was something called xscreen (+/- a hyphen or two) years ago
it may be a dead project now though
vnc is probably the closest thing to screen for x
[21:36:50] <jepler> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~zandy/guievict/
Hmmm, that kinda sucks when you think about it
I've never used it though
someone just said xmove
lemme write the specs down,the pdf is sideways,looks like this is a special motor
* SWPadnos suggests rotating the pdf
just found that
tried 'System > Preferences > Remote Desktop'?
the original question made me think the problem isn't seeing what's on the screen, it's leaving processes running when you disconnect from the viewer
I'm not sure you can do that with remote desktop or vnc
(I think remote desktop is vnc, actually)
[21:41:23] <JymmmEMC> http://freshmeat.net/projects/ratpoison/
no, ratpoison is screen-like in that navigation among windows is done with keystrokes that share a common prefix
it's like a single-tasking UI fora multi-tasking OS
well, this kinda sucks... I surely thought something like this existed long ago
rated voltage 45vdc,no load speed at rated voltage 1120-1360 rpm,Ke 33-39.6 vdc,no load current .7a max
didnt see a Kt
thought this was a 160v 3000 rpm servo
glad electro craft sent me this pdf
Hey, im just hooking up my encoders and im looking at the pin diagram for the 7i33, can someone tell me what the slashes in front of the functions indicate? (ie /ENCA0 and /ENCB0)
my encoders have A and B channels, power and ground... do i ignore the /A and /B pins?
Adam_: some encoders have "differential outputs", others have "single ended". If your encoder has A and B but no A/ or B/ then you leave A/ and B/ disconnected on the 7i33 and I think you also set a jumper on the board to indicate "single-ended"
oh ok, thanks
for encoders that have it, A/ is an inverted version of A, and this can improve the noise resistance of the system
the docs call this jumper the "TTL/RS-422 encoder selection" (page 2)
ok we have counts they are just off the mark
jlmjvm, I'd get a 45V supply then :)
they have a 600w44v 13a model
Kt may be labeled "torque constant", or there may be some rating that's torque per amp (or some torque output at a given current)
SWPadnos,thanks for the input
you need to know the max continuous current - that's what will determine the supply you need
quiet in here today...
does anyone know exactly what the 'emc_module_helper' (I think thats what its called) does?
yes. It checks that its arguments are appropriate, then invokes insmod or rmmod
it is "setuid root" which means that it can perform privileged actions like inserting and removing kernel modules
before emc_module_helper, you had to run emc as root or use sudo, and we considered this undesirable.
well, for some reason its giving me a hard time...(non-standard installation directory)
the module directory is set at compile time. you can't compile in one place and copy the emc2 dir somewhere else and have it work
but telling the /etc/init.d/realtime script to use insmod and and rmmod seemed to fix the problem...
skyfox00: try changing the path_whitelist in src/module_helper/module_helper.c
on the other hand if using sudo or running as root all the time doesn't turn your stomach, do that instead
I configured emc and rtai to install to /EMC2/ to make it portable so I could compile everything (kernel+realtime+emc) all on a fast computer(1.8 Ghz) and then moved it all on my thumb drive to the slow computer (350 Mhz)
yeah, I do every thing as root and hardly ever use any other login...
* skyfox00 must be power hungry...
I havn't hooked up the pluto board yet, but running in simulator mode it all seems to run fine.(cpu pegs and axis display is jerkey, but no realtime errors)
anyway, for anyone who cares, emc2(cvs version)+rtai-3.5+linux-2.6.17(configured with the .config file from the slackware 220.127.116.11 kernel) can run to some degree on slackware(11.0)
fwiw, I think there were some problems with 2.6.17+RTAI - maybe that was the kernel where sometimes you get ~1000 key repeats/second sometimes
that would be funny(almost)
Well, thanks to all the people who put up with all my questions concering compiling emc2+rtai+linux kernel, etc!
ok, time to try the pluto...*groans*
or reset, which is what i did.