#emc | Logs for 2007-08-27

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[01:23:40] <jepler> bizarre -- when comp reports an error, it always displays the first line of the file in the message
[01:30:39] <jepler> no, that's not quite the pattern ..
[01:31:38] <jepler> if it's .. the last line before ;; ?
[01:35:12] <skinnypuppy1334> Is anyone familiar with this PMDX power prep module? Specifically is it 110 vac in or 80 vac in?
[01:35:22] <skinnypuppy1334> http://www.pmdx.com/PMDX-135/index.html
[01:36:12] <jepler> http://www.pmdx.com/PMDX-135/PMDX-135_Manual_12.pdf page 4 gives the "AC Input Power" for the 50V and 80V modes
[01:36:14] <jepler> models
[01:36:43] <jepler> for the 80V model it's 56VAC -- 56 * sqrt(2) ~ 80
[01:38:44] <skinnypuppy1334> jepler, thanks for the pdf link
[01:40:47] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/comp.g: fix reporting errors on the last likne before the ;;
[01:41:15] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/comp.g: merge rev 1.32: fix reporting errors on the last line before the ;;
[02:04:27] <skinnypuppy1334> I'm putting together a pricelist since gecko stuff is on sale, I'm also looking at a PMDX 131 MB and 135 power board, Looking to fit this to by enco BP style vertical mill. Question is about steppers, is 740 oz in enough for x&y?
[02:04:57] <skinnypuppy1334> 4:1 reduction
[02:06:07] <skinnypuppy1334> 740 oz/in Model # RHT34-740: $109.00 http://www.homeshopcnc.com/page5.html Good motors? Good buy?
[02:11:19] <jlmjvm> you dont need the reduction for the stepper motors,they will run at 1 to 1
[02:11:54] <SWPadnos> 740 os-in may need reduction on a BP sized mill
[02:11:57] <SWPadnos> oz-in
[02:12:19] <SWPadnos> I think the original BPs are 1100-1200 oz-in (or at least that's around what replacements/upgrades are)
[02:12:43] <jlmjvm> i was told they were 600 oz in
[02:12:52] <SWPadnos> could be
[02:13:01] <jlmjvm> mariss told me
[02:13:20] <SWPadnos> those will be great at low speed, but won't be able to push much at higher speeds
[02:13:43] <SWPadnos> so I guess you're right - reduction probably isn't needed
[02:14:15] <jlmjvm> earlier he was looking at some servo motors when we discussed reduction
[02:16:38] <skinnypuppy1334> OK so steppers are more appropriate for 1:1 then?
[02:17:35] <Jymmm> If you can afford it, go servo
[02:17:42] <jlmjvm> thats what my factory bp is
[02:18:14] <SWPadnos> before deciding on gearing, you should decide how fast you want the machine to go, both in rapid and when milling
[02:18:46] <skinnypuppy1334> So far the spreadsheet shows $871 for the total with three steppers, three G210s Pmdx 130 and 135, and a torroid
[02:19:04] <SWPadnos> you can estimate the cutting force you need when milling at "full speed", and from that you can get a torque load on the screw
[02:19:14] <SWPadnos> (at that speed / cutting force)
[02:19:30] <Jymmm> It's the nickle and dime crap that will kill ya... enclosure, connectors, wire, switches, etc
[02:19:35] <jepler> how do you estimate what fraction of holding torque you have at a particular speed (for steppers)
[02:19:39] <jepler> ?
[02:19:46] <SWPadnos> if that speed is below the knee of the stepper torque curve, then you want to gear it down so you're in the constant power region of the curve instead of the constant torque region
[02:19:56] <SWPadnos> you use the datasheet ;)
[02:20:08] <Jymmm> Use the force luke!
[02:20:09] <jepler> stepper motors have datasheets ??
[02:20:16] <skinnypuppy1334> Yeah, I've got a lot of PC's Enclosures etc
[02:20:19] <SWPadnos> there are ways to estimate, but I don't remember them at the moment (or I just don't know them - hard to remember)
[02:20:21] <jepler> I need to stop buying from "we bought a truckload of electronics crap.com"
[02:20:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:20:44] <SWPadnos> start buying from "we bought a truckload of new in box with manuals crap.com"
[02:21:01] <jepler> nowedonthaveapinout.com
[02:21:15] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:21:26] <SWPadnos> it's a 9705, you can see it right on the chip!
[02:22:22] <Jymmm> chip? what chip? you dind't ship me any chip!
[02:23:22] <skinnypuppy1334> The G210 and G340 being the same price narrows it , but the pmdx 131 looks to be only for steppers
[02:24:28] <jepler> 'night all
[02:24:48] <skinnypuppy1334> thanks again jepler
[02:25:04] <jepler> sure thing
[02:26:19] <skinnypuppy1334> The price difference b/t stepper servo seems pretty small like 10% total, whats the main advantage to the servo system?
[02:26:55] <SWPadnos> full torque at all speeds
[02:27:00] <SWPadnos> feedback
[02:27:51] <skinnypuppy1334> So it's the torque dropoff of switching the stepper at high freq?
[02:28:21] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I'll give ya feedback arlight! ;)
[02:31:14] <Jymmm> skinnypuppy1334: you'll need some type of encoder per motor if you go servo as well
[02:31:25] <SWPadnos> skinnypuppy1334, have you read the gecko stepper whitepaper?
[02:31:44] <SWPadnos> http://www.geckodrive.com/photos/Step_motor_basics.pdf
[02:32:29] <skinnypuppy1334> Been over six months, thank you for the link I'll read it now
[02:32:43] <SWPadnos> ok. it's very good at explaining stepper motor operation
[02:32:52] <Jymmm> skinnypuppy1334: You may have to read it 2 or 3 times to "get it".
[02:33:18] <Jymmm> it's really easy to skim past the good stuff
[02:34:05] <Jymmm> But it takes me 42 years to read the back of a milk carton
[02:34:46] <Jymmm> maddash: how's your alias doing for ya?
[02:35:03] <maddash> shitty. it fails everytime I `rm -r [blah]`
[02:35:12] <skinnypuppy1334> Yep I remember it now, I've got an electronics background but mostly in repairing solid state audio amps, car audio stuff
[02:35:16] <Jymmm> maddash: sriously?
[02:35:32] <Jymmm> maddash: seriously?
[02:35:33] <maddash> Jymmm: I have to remember to leave out the `-r` and other flags incompatible with mv
[02:35:45] <maddash> yes, but otherwise, it's fine.
[02:35:54] <Jymmm> maddash: well, I'm sure there's some tweek you can add to it
[02:36:10] <Jymmm> maybe a lil egex
[02:36:12] <Jymmm> regex
[02:37:03] <skinnypuppy1334> I wish I knew what cnc was 20 years ago when I was making circuit boards with black stick on type resist
[02:37:26] <Jymmm> I made three and gave up after that
[02:37:44] <SWPadnos> you can alias something like rm='rm -i'
[02:37:59] <SWPadnos> that way you'll get realy annoyed with the confirmation questions :)
[02:38:09] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: the problem is that he keeps adding the switches
[02:38:26] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: the alias is a "backup" soluton
[02:38:30] <SWPadnos> do an experiment - try rm -irf <something>
[02:38:32] <maddash> SWPadnos: actually rm-i isn't really a solution -- it can get quite annoying
[02:38:48] <SWPadnos> is it more annoying than deleting days worth of work?
[02:38:56] <maddash> SWPadnos: i was looking for a windows-style recycling bin counterpart to rm
[02:39:16] <toast> alias rm='move - /trash/'
[02:39:17] <SWPadnos> you need "Norton Protected Recycler for Linux"
[02:39:24] <SWPadnos> luckily, it doesn't exist
[02:40:36] <Jymmm> alias rm='mv --target-directory ~/.Trash'
[02:40:59] <toast> ty Jymmm
[02:41:12] <toast> i've been drinking
[02:41:15] <toast> (clearly)
[02:41:19] <Jymmm> what?
[02:41:21] <Jymmm> oh
[02:41:23] <toast> your way is better
[02:41:23] <toast> than mine
[02:41:30] <toast> i don't know if mine even works.
[02:41:33] <Jymmm> I justed googled linux recycle bin
[02:41:50] <Jymmm> http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/misc/58944-about-rm-command-recycle-bin.html
[02:42:06] <toast> one time my co-worker accidentally deleted "ls"
[02:42:15] <toast> it was awesome
[02:43:15] <Jymmm> heh, I bet
[02:45:13] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: wake up over there =)
[02:45:54] <SWPadnos> why?
[02:46:16] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Um, I have a purrty flower?
[02:46:49] <SWPadnos> err - maybe toast needs to send you some of his drinks
[02:46:57] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: probably =)
[02:47:16] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Ok, I stole a whole prime rib roast from you know where!
[02:47:43] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:47:45] <SWPadnos> I'll be right over
[02:47:47] <Jymmm> Oh, btw.... anyone need any SS in the shape of a zepplin by chance?
[02:48:10] <SWPadnos> that smells like beef
[02:48:21] <SWPadnos> speaking of which, I should eat a little something
[02:48:23] <Jymmm> juice, wonderful beef!
[02:48:38] <Jymmm> and creamed spinach too
[02:48:48] <SWPadnos> don't forget the mashed potatoes
[02:49:11] <Jymmm> never!
[02:51:10] <toast> you can all have some of my drinks
[02:53:13] <maddash> SWPadnos: you're an expert on emc's coordinate offset systems, right? How's g10 different from g92?
[02:53:27] <jlmjvm> swpadnos:you know of any reasonable servo drives for a brushed dc servo driven by a mesa 5120
[02:53:53] <maddash> toast: rofl
[02:54:08] <SWPadnos> maddash, I'm about the least expert on EMCs offset coordinate systems
[02:54:17] <SWPadnos> except that I do know what they are
[02:54:34] <SWPadnos> jlmjvm, depends on the servo power rating
[02:54:43] <maddash> SWPadnos: enlighten me, oh master of the offset
[02:54:47] <jlmjvm> 80 v or less prolly
[02:55:09] <SWPadnos> the Mesa 7i33 (?) has analog output, so you can use any servo drive that takes +/-10V input
[02:55:31] <SWPadnos> maddash, no, I'm saying that except for knowing the definition of an offset coordinate system, I know nothing about them
[02:55:50] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/RS274NGC_3/RS274NGC_33a.html#1019988
[02:56:02] <maddash> Jymmm: I suppose the optimal solution would be something like `alias rm="rm -r $@" ; alias canIt="mv -t ${TRASH} $@`
[02:56:07] <maddash> cradek: read it.
[02:56:16] <cradek> ?
[02:56:25] <maddash> cradek: they both do offsets, except g10 does "absolute coordinates" -- what's that mean?
[02:57:09] <cradek> I don't see that text
[02:57:33] <jlmjvm> wouldnt that be machine numbers
[02:57:36] <cradek> can you ask a more specific question
[02:57:49] <jlmjvm> same number as g53
[02:58:22] <cradek> if you fire up emc these are easy to play with
[02:59:02] <jlmjvm> swpadnos:know of any reasonable servo drives that use +-10v
[02:59:15] <maddash> cradek: isn't g92[blah] = g10 p1 [blah]?
[02:59:28] <cradek> not at all
[02:59:43] <maddash> and i'm particularly confused by the example in section 3.5.5
[02:59:52] <maddash> "Example: G10 L2 P1 x 3.5 y 17.2 sets the origin of the first coordinate system (the one selected by G54) to a point where X is 3.5 and Y is 17.2 (in absolute coordinates). The Z coordinate of the origin (and the coordinates for any rotational axes) are whatever those coordinates of the origin were before the line was executed."
[02:59:53] <SWPadnos> sure: copley, AMCC, and just about all the high end drives (Yaskawa, Parker, Mitsubishi, Fanuc, .....)
[03:00:00] <SWPadnos> I'm sure there are others as well
[03:00:05] <skinnypuppy1334> Anyone recomend an online supplier for steppers? I'm looking at some on http://www.homeshopcnc.com/page5.html
[03:00:10] <maddash> in the above example, why bother with g10? why not just g92 x3.5 y17.2?
[03:00:14] <jlmjvm> i cant afford high end im sure
[03:00:24] <SWPadnos> also, Mesa makes a motor drive board that's good for up to 100W motors, and there may be a 400W version as well (low voltage though)
[03:00:39] <cradek> maddash: those two things are not at all the same
[03:00:43] <jlmjvm> i saw that
[03:00:47] <cradek> g10 L2 p1 sets the g54 coordinate system
[03:00:54] <cradek> g92 moves all coordinate systems relative to the current tool tip
[03:01:25] <maddash> and what's with the 'l2'?
[03:01:32] <toast_> repeat
[03:01:39] <toast_> at least that's what l does in other controls
[03:01:41] <cradek> it's required, probably for historical reasons
[03:02:34] <maddash> geez. that's like having to talk about the weather everytime I meet a girl.
[03:02:34] <Jymmm> maddash: I am the WRONG person to be asking about shell script
[03:02:40] <cradek> maybe the docs are clear to me because I already know how the coordinate systems work, but I don't see a problem with that example
[03:02:57] <maddash> Jymmm: it was suggestion
[03:03:32] <maddash> cradek: hm, so the g10 command in the example wouldn't change the displayed coordinates?
[03:03:45] <Jymmm> maddash: No, No, you dont' get it.... I'm still trying to figure out what Login: means. I try man login, but I get nothing
[03:03:55] <maddash> cradek: ie, the huge numbers displayed on tkemc
[03:04:15] <cradek> maddash: it would if the system you change is active
[03:05:36] <jlmjvm> they have a 400 watt 80v 7a driver
[03:05:47] <maddash> cradek: ok. g10 makes sense to me. now for g92: What did you mean by "g92 moves all..."?
[03:06:11] <cradek> 'You can offset the current coordinate system using G92 or G92.3. This offset will then apply to all nine program coordinate systems.'
[03:06:26] <maddash> cradek: are you telling me that after a g92 is executed, the coordinates displayed on tkemc remain the same regardless of which coordinate system I switch to?
[03:06:40] <cradek> no
[03:07:43] <cradek> maddash: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/2600/
[03:08:20] <cradek> maddash: for a hands-on understanding, load up systems.ngc and do the exercise I describe in this message
[03:09:21] <cradek> especially see the last paragraph
[03:09:57] <maddash> cradek: "enter -2 in the dialog" -- touch off dialog, you mean?
[03:10:45] <cradek> yes
[03:11:17] <jlmjvm> swpadnos: how would the mesa 7140 dual 400w driver compare to a gecko g320,im seeing a diff in the amps
[03:12:11] <SWPadnos> I don't know the quality of the mesa motor drives. their other stuff looks good though
[03:12:19] <jlmjvm> g320 80v 20a mesa 80v 7a
[03:12:27] <maddash> cradek: how beautiful
[03:12:28] <SWPadnos> the gecko is certainly a higher power drive - 80V 20A
[03:12:59] <jlmjvm> wish i could make it be closed loop
[03:13:25] <jlmjvm> that would show up in motor acceleration,right?
[03:13:30] <SWPadnos> well, you can turn it into an analog drive, but you'll void the warrantee
[03:13:37] <SWPadnos> and you can't change the I gain
[03:13:45] <jlmjvm> oh really,tell me more
[03:14:10] <SWPadnos> actually, maybe you can. I think the modification actually turns it into a current-mode drive
[03:14:33] <SWPadnos> you lift a pin on one of the chips, and solder your 0-5V analog signal wire to it ;)
[03:14:43] <jlmjvm> how much would this mod cost?
[03:14:51] <SWPadnos> 2.5V = stay still, 0V = full reverse current, 5V = full forward current
[03:15:26] <SWPadnos> well, you'd need some scaling on the analog output from the mesa, so you'd probably have to build a small card to do that
[03:15:34] <SWPadnos> there are no parts added to the gecko
[03:15:36] <cradek> maddash: I'm not sure if my sarcasm detector is well-tuned. Do you see it now?
[03:16:23] <skinnypuppy1334> What are some other online suppliers of nema 34 steppers other than homecnc?
[03:16:37] <SWPadnos> skinnypuppy1334, the list would be too long to recount
[03:17:02] <jlmjvm> so with that mod a g320 would work with 0-5v analog
[03:17:06] <SWPadnos> and then we'd get into who has the best motors, the best prices, the best tech support, the best .....
[03:17:10] <SWPadnos> jlmjvm, yes
[03:17:21] <SWPadnos> +/-2.5V with +2.5V DC offset
[03:17:38] <Jymmm> skinnypuppy1334: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=nema+34&category0=
[03:17:40] <jlmjvm> then it could work closed loop with emc
[03:17:41] <SWPadnos> remember, it does void the warrantee
[03:17:44] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:18:10] <skinnypuppy1334> I just don't want to buy any junk, are the homecnc reputable motors?
[03:18:17] <jlmjvm> if it works is all i care
[03:18:30] <Jymmm> skinnypuppy1334: Do they have a torque graph/chart?
[03:19:04] <toast_> HORSEPOWAH
[03:19:08] <toast_> sorry.
[03:19:47] <skinnypuppy1334> Jymmm just various volt/amp/resistance
[03:20:00] <Jymmm> http://www.applied-motion.com/products/stepper/motors/sizeht23.php
[03:20:10] <Jymmm> http://www.orientalmotor.com/products/ac-dc-step-motors/index.htm
[03:20:31] <toast_> toast_ is now known as toastydeath
[03:20:32] <Jymmm> http://www.danahermotion.com/products/product_detail.php?parent_id=50
[03:20:37] <skinnypuppy1334> Thanks for the link , I'll check those out
[03:20:48] <Jymmm> skinnypuppy1334: those are $$$ but should be reputable in their specs
[03:22:49] <Jymmm> skinnypuppy1334: No idea, but have info and prices http://www.clickautomation.com/products/index.php?func=list&cid=159
[03:23:13] <jlmjvm> swpadnos:what is the scaling card your talking about
[03:23:19] <SWPadnos> one you build
[03:23:46] <jlmjvm> lol,what would it do
[03:23:59] <Jymmm> scale stuff
[03:24:03] <SWPadnos> the mesa card outputs +/- 10V, so you need to scale that down by a factor of 4, and add in 2.5V offset
[03:24:05] <Jymmm> fish, old paint...
[03:24:11] <jlmjvm> k,gotcha
[03:24:24] <skinnypuppy1334> That would be cool hardware scaler
[03:24:50] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Hey, how come you never became a chef?
[03:24:58] <SWPadnos> I am a chef
[03:25:03] <toast> cnc chef
[03:25:11] <SWPadnos> it's just that nobody pays me to cook
[03:25:16] <jlmjvm> lol
[03:25:33] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: do you have your own personal/private set of knives that you keep rolled up when not in use?
[03:25:42] <toast> you need to write a "make hamburger" canned cycle
[03:25:43] <toast> for emc
[03:26:09] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Start changing your wife =)
[03:26:10] <SWPadnos> rolled up? of course not. they're in a hardwood block
[03:26:19] <jlmjvm> would there be a lot involved in making 1 of those
[03:26:29] <toast> a hardwood block or "make hamburger"
[03:26:30] <toast> or a wife
[03:26:30] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: you can't take a block to another kitchen
[03:26:42] <SWPadnos> a couple of op-amps and a handful of resistors and caps per channel, I think
[03:27:05] <jlmjvm> would this be a good breadboard project
[03:27:14] <SWPadnos> or I can sell you a really high end 16-bit reolution analog I/O board that plugs into the Mesa
[03:27:37] <jlmjvm> now were talking
[03:27:40] <SWPadnos> for you, only $999 (on sale special)
[03:27:45] <SWPadnos> 6 inputs, 8 outputs
[03:27:48] <Jymmm> http://www.electrotap.com/articles/opamps2.shtml
[03:28:06] <SWPadnos> as soon as the design is done and I've got a few built, that is :)
[03:28:21] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: is that link what you were talking about?
[03:28:31] <SWPadnos> damn. I never ate that snack I was thinking about
[03:29:04] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: go eat....
[03:29:13] <SWPadnos> Jymmmno, that's a 1:1 buffer
[03:29:18] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[03:29:35] <SWPadnos> http://www.electrotap.com/articles/opamps1.shtml
[03:29:59] <Jymmm> I NEVER got into opamps
[03:30:10] <SWPadnos> but not quite, since the input scale is also 0-5V
[03:31:06] <Jymmm> I like the masthead
[05:53:48] <Skullworks-PGAB> skinnypuppy1334: I've had good luck with Kelinc motors.
[05:54:16] <Skullworks-PGAB> also take a peek at this R8 collet holder http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46004
[05:55:13] <Skullworks-PGAB> its a non standard size collet but complete sets or individual collets are avalable from other supplies
[05:56:19] <Skullworks-PGAB> its cheap - and if you mount most of your tools in R8 EM holders makes for simple repeatable toolchanges on an R8 platform
[05:57:24] <Skullworks-PGAB> or the other option is to use the Tormach style toolholders for even less Z axis height loss
[07:56:00] <anonimasu> hm
[07:57:02] <anonimasu> speaking of abput parts..
[07:57:49] <anonimasu> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=14;t=000023
[09:46:52] <The_Ball_> The_Ball_ is now known as The_Ball
[11:12:00] <fenn> nice fingernails :0
[11:12:21] <fenn> nice knife too
[11:57:56] <anonimasu> fenn: yeah really nice knife :)
[11:58:38] <anonimasu> though it looks kind of aggressive :)
[12:34:50] <fenn> i'm still (still!) reading this stupid forum thread
[12:35:01] <fenn> about the knife
[12:38:10] <anonimasu> hehe
[12:38:19] <anonimasu> I think I should copy it..
[12:38:45] <anonimasu> I have some 500hb steel at work
[12:39:26] <anonimasu> 51hrc..
[12:42:22] <fenn> she just uses the mill for getting the shape right, and then sends the steel off to a waterjet place
[12:43:04] <fenn> its not like its hard to make a knife though
[12:43:11] <anonimasu> yep
[12:43:17] <anonimasu> I dont have a waterjet..
[12:43:42] <anonimasu> and the shop nearby that has one charges a few $50 for single qty parts..
[12:44:28] <anonimasu> if they do want work from me at all :)
[12:44:57] <anonimasu> though milling one is easy..
[12:45:15] <anonimasu> and 3d contouring the edge..
[12:45:21] <anonimasu> :)
[12:45:34] <anonimasu> so you just have to grind the final little bit to get it sharp..
[12:46:28] <fenn> i think the idea is that you heat treat it before the bulk of the grinding so as not to lose carbon from the thin edge
[12:46:36] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:46:44] <fenn> but then again you could case harden it at the same time
[12:47:09] <anonimasu> you can just machine it out of some tough SS
[12:47:30] <anonimasu> fenn: what about work hardening ;)
[12:47:34] <fenn> heh
[12:47:41] <fenn> just hit it with a hammer :P
[12:47:50] <anonimasu> how'd that work for the edge ;)
[12:48:04] <fenn> i have this fancy schmancy japanese chef knife that is made like that
[12:48:13] <anonimasu> hammer? :p
[12:48:17] <fenn> yeah it's all dimpled
[12:48:20] <anonimasu> are you sure they it isnt how they grind them?
[12:48:27] <fenn> then they use a big stone to sharpen it
[12:48:31] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:48:32] <fenn> like 10x30cm
[12:48:37] <anonimasu> the grinding marks on swords are nice..
[12:48:44] <anonimasu> :D
[12:49:02] <anonimasu> though it takes a while befor the swordsmiths can grind them ;)
[12:49:11] <anonimasu> anyway it's a nice little knife..
[12:52:00] <anonimasu> like really nice .)
[12:53:03] <fenn> oh get on with your bad self
[12:54:28] <anonimasu> bad self?
[12:54:50] <fenn> uh, nevermind
[12:55:52] <anonimasu> _if_ I had to carry a knife for self protection I might aswell carry a gun around..
[12:55:56] <anonimasu> :D
[12:56:43] <fenn> guns are heavy and expensive and generally not as useful as a knife
[12:56:59] <anonimasu> I like to carry a knif while out in the forest working though
[12:57:09] <anonimasu> for cutting wires/stripping.. :)
[12:57:25] <fenn> you strip wires in .. the forest?
[12:57:32] <anonimasu> actually if I had to carry anything for self protection I'd move..
[12:57:42] <anonimasu> forest machines and stuff like that :)
[12:58:03] <fenn> http://www.goesping.org/archives/2005/12/21/emacs-weenie/#comment-7827
[12:58:28] <anonimasu> lol
[12:58:31] <anonimasu> never seen that before
[13:54:09] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/po/ (fr.po fr_axis.po fr_rs274_err.po): translation updates from Francis TISSERANT
[14:33:09] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man9/stepgen.9: fix step waveform diagrams
[14:58:00] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man9/stepgen.9: fix step timing diagrams in pdf version
[15:00:04] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man9/stepgen.9: doubled step rate for software step+direction on parport
[15:00:06] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/drivers.lyx: doubled step rate for software step+direction on parport
[15:00:06] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/stepgen.c: doubled step rate for software step+direction on parport
[15:00:06] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/hal_parport.c: doubled step rate for software step+direction on parport
[15:00:24] <SWPadnos> yay!
[15:19:49] <JymmmEMC> yay!
[15:20:19] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: what are we cheering about?
[15:22:37] <SWPadnos> I'm cheering about jepler's stepgen changes (I like to call it "double-step")
[15:23:01] <SWPadnos> EMC2 CVS, now able to generate a whole step per BASE_PERIOD
[15:23:15] <JymmmEMC> yay!
[15:23:20] <SWPadnos> see what I mean
[15:23:38] <JymmmEMC> jepler: go fo2 per BASE_PERIOD now!!!!!
[15:24:00] <SWPadnos> so even with crappy machines that only get down to 25000 BASE_PERIOD, you can still get 40000 steps/second
[15:24:17] <SWPadnos> (which would have required 12500 BASE_PERIOD before)
[15:24:36] <JymmmEMC> hawt damn!
[15:25:08] <SWPadnos> also, the step duration will be more consistent (not that it really matters)
[15:25:27] <SWPadnos> and also more precise - you could theoretically do 300 ns steps
[15:25:30] <skunkworks> 100K steps here I come.. ;)
[15:25:33] <SWPadnos> (or smaller)
[15:25:35] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:25:52] <JymmmEMC> 50,000 steps - we're almost there baby, just hang on
[15:26:09] <SWPadnos> the CPU load will be a bit higher since it busy-waits a little
[15:26:26] <JymmmEMC> eh, toss x elsewhere =)
[15:26:32] <SWPadnos> actually, 50k/second is really doable with a lot of machines - that
[15:26:42] <SWPadnos> that's a 20000 BASE_PERIOD, and even my celeron 500 can do that
[15:26:55] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I just want to try it once, why? because I can =)
[15:27:04] <SWPadnos> the EMC BrickFlinger :)
[15:27:12] <JymmmEMC> lol
[15:27:39] <JymmmEMC> cmos (0-5v) == rs-232 ???
[15:27:43] <SWPadnos> no
[15:27:44] <skunkworks> no
[15:27:53] <JymmmEMC> TTL ?
[15:27:55] <SWPadnos> RS-232 = +/- 12V in theory
[15:28:05] <JymmmEMC> TTL == 0-12v ?
[15:28:12] <SWPadnos> TTL=0-5V
[15:28:11] <skunkworks> 0-5
[15:28:29] <skunkworks> cmos 0-15 or is it 20 I don't remember
[15:28:48] <JymmmEMC> Hmmm, ok to use TTL in serial port, I'd need a max232?
[15:28:52] <SWPadnos> you can get TTL or CMOS higher than 5V, it's the noise margins that differ
[15:29:02] <SWPadnos> yes, something like a max232 is good
[15:29:19] <SWPadnos> TI has some that are much (much) less expensive
[15:29:29] <SWPadnos> like $0.75 instead of $4.50
[15:29:45] <JymmmEMC> oh, what do I search for @ TI ?
[15:30:13] <SWPadnos> I search @ digikey and follow the documentation links :)
[15:30:37] <JymmmEMC> 1st link? http://www.google.com/search?q=max232+site%3Ati.com&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial
[15:30:39] <SWPadnos> damn. they're $0.90 in singles now
[15:32:39] <JymmmEMC> I need 4 signal lines =(
[15:32:50] <JymmmEMC> wait, make that 3
[15:33:01] <SWPadnos> on which end?
[15:33:13] <JymmmEMC> 2 out, 1 in
[15:33:33] <JymmmEMC> high speed on one of the outs
[15:33:48] <SWPadnos> how high? this chip only does 120kbaud
[15:34:15] <JymmmEMC> the out is literally 1 pulse per second resolution
[15:34:35] <SWPadnos> that's not high speed
[15:34:46] <SWPadnos> I can do 1 pulse per second, give or take
[15:34:54] <JymmmEMC> I can't have too much lag
[15:35:00] <JymmmEMC> (verbiage)
[15:35:33] <SWPadnos> hmmm - the maxim chips aren't anywhere near as bad in quantity - they come down to $2 pretty fast
[15:35:37] <JymmmEMC> 500ms propagation delay
[15:35:51] <JymmmEMC> is what the datasheet says
[15:35:53] <SWPadnos> that's about an eternity to a microcontroller
[15:36:07] <JymmmEMC> that's too much
[15:36:19] <SWPadnos> that's nanoseconds, not milliseconds
[15:36:50] <JymmmEMC> oh, heh sorry, REALLY old crt with rainbow bars and fuzzy text here =)
[15:36:58] <SWPadnos> it would need an awfully big buffer to get 120 kbaud with a 500ms propagation delay
[15:37:06] <SWPadnos> zoom, baby!
[15:37:31] <JymmmEMC> 500ns I can live with.
[15:37:34] <SWPadnos> I think so
[15:37:58] <JymmmEMC> could I use TTL straight into serial port as a test?
[15:38:04] <SWPadnos> the maxim chips can do higher bit rates - 250k to 1M baud
[15:38:08] <SWPadnos> no
[15:38:18] <SWPadnos> you need a negative voltage to represent a 1
[15:38:24] <JymmmEMC> negative?
[15:38:27] <JymmmEMC> I thought 0
[15:38:35] <SWPadnos> yes, RS232 is +/- 12
[15:38:37] <JymmmEMC> oh
[15:38:50] <JymmmEMC> 0 == floating (so to speak)
[15:39:12] <SWPadnos> you might be able to
[15:39:18] <SWPadnos> argh - I meant to delete that, ignore it
[15:39:42] <JymmmEMC> ^h^h^h^h^h^h delete what?
[15:39:50] <JymmmEMC> ;)
[15:39:55] <SWPadnos> :)
[15:40:00] <Vq^> :o)
[15:40:08] <JymmmEMC> ok, so I need two if these chips for 3 signals?
[15:40:19] <JymmmEMC> s/if/of/
[15:40:27] <SWPadnos> if you need 3 signals in one direction, yes
[15:40:40] <JymmmEMC> 2 out, 1 in
[15:40:43] <SWPadnos> there are other chips that have more lines in each direction
[15:40:50] <JymmmEMC> DIP pkg?
[15:40:54] <SWPadnos> 2 out 1 in can be done with one chip - it has 2 in each direction
[15:41:03] <SWPadnos> DIP, SOIC, SSOP, SO-wide ...
[15:41:56] <JymmmEMC> Oh wait, I'm confusing different units, only need two signals 1 out, 1 in on this unit.
[15:42:12] <JymmmEMC> I'm hacking off the UART to USB converter
[15:42:52] <SWPadnos> ?
[15:44:00] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I'm literally Lo-jacking my gf (APRS) but the gps I'm getting is TTL out that goes into a UART-TO-USB converter
[15:44:40] <SWPadnos> gf? - that usually means girlfriend ...
[15:44:53] <JymmmEMC> hooking it up to her new bicycle, so if she gets a flat or something, I'll know where she's at
[15:44:57] <SWPadnos> ah
[15:45:18] <SWPadnos> what are you hooking it up to? surely here won't be a PC on the bicycle?
[15:45:22] <SWPadnos> s/here/there/
[15:45:35] <JymmmEMC> We both got our tickets at the same time, so I bought her a radio... hang on
[15:46:28] <JymmmEMC> http://www.kenwoodusa.com/products/ListProduct.aspx?k1=3&k2=9&k3=11&pr=2137
[15:47:01] <SWPadnos> no - I mean what are you connecting the GPS output to?
[15:47:07] <JymmmEMC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Position_Reporting_System
[15:47:14] <SWPadnos> oh - the radio has an input for GPS
[15:47:20] <JymmmEMC> Directly to the radio,
[15:47:35] <JymmmEMC> it has a built in TNC with APRS capabilities
[15:47:58] <JymmmEMC> then I cna track her at http://finu.com
[15:48:32] <JymmmEMC> 144.390 MHz is the US National APRS freq
[15:49:01] <JymmmEMC> sorry... http://findu.com
[15:49:27] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/track.cgi?call=k4hg-8&start=9999&geo=usa.geo
[15:50:23] <SWPadnos> it doesn't say what the serial port voltage levels are
[15:51:43] <skunkworks> you know that is a goverment site.. They want to be able to snub out all the ham radio operators when the revolution comes.
[15:52:14] <JymmmEMC> lol @ skunkworks
[15:52:47] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: Thus why I'd setup when close to home/work to make the position ambigous
[15:59:52] <skunkworks> :)
[16:03:55] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I think I foudn the voltage stuff, mentions 3.3v when 2ma flows, otherwise 3.5v thru a 100 ohm resistor
[16:04:11] <JymmmEMC> thr a internal 100 ohm resistor
[16:04:18] <SWPadnos> err - ok. I think I almost understand what you said :)
[16:04:32] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: That's ok, I almost understood what I wrote
[16:05:08] <JymmmEMC> damn kenwood fucked aroudn with their manuals download page agian - real shitty
[16:05:19] <JymmmEMC> http://www.kenwoodusa.com/support/simple.aspx?men=2&M2=71&M3=130
[16:05:37] <JymmmEMC> select MANUALS, select TH-D7A
[16:05:52] <JymmmEMC> page 96
[16:06:20] <SWPadnos> I looked through it a little. I'll have to drop this for the moment though - got lots of stuff to do today
[16:06:33] <JymmmEMC> dont sweat it.
[16:06:52] <JymmmEMC> I'll harass the KW techs =)
[16:06:59] <skinnypuppy1334> Any EMC guys in Georgia? Atlanta?
[16:07:39] <SWPadnos> Tiger Georgia - Les Watts
[16:07:44] <SWPadnos> maybe others as well
[16:08:09] <skinnypuppy1334> Does Les come on IRC?
[16:08:17] <SWPadnos> not too often these days
[16:08:35] <SWPadnos> he's busy as well, but smart enough to stay offline ;)
[16:08:40] <JymmmEMC> lol
[16:08:45] <fenn> les is busy with hi-tech research stuff these days
[16:09:14] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: are the max232 power hungry?
[16:09:37] <skinnypuppy1334> Sounds like what I'd rather be doing, things aren't too hot in the job market here
[16:09:59] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, no - most of those chips are a few mA, and there are low power ones that are in the uA range
[16:10:32] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I just rememebred that forget the converter, and that serial itself is power hungry
[16:10:56] <JymmmEMC> can suck a battery dry in 20-40 minutes
[16:11:24] <SWPadnos> sure - the radio probably draws 10W when transmitting
[16:11:32] <SWPadnos> a few extra mW won't matter
[16:12:47] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I was gonna place the converter and battery in one enclosure with a nice lil charger, but I guess I can toss in a 12V@2Ah slim battery instead
[16:13:09] <JymmmEMC> s/instead/as well/
[16:13:31] <JymmmEMC> was gonna go for the 7Ah =)
[16:19:03] <skunkworks> how often are the doc built here?
[16:19:10] <skunkworks> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/
[16:20:22] <fenn> varies depending on who you ask
[16:20:36] <fenn> seems to be one or more times daily
[16:20:37] <skunkworks> heh
[16:20:42] <cradek> surely the real answer is not a matter of opinion though
[16:21:19] <cradek> (jepler does that, he will know)
[16:22:03] <SWPadnos> I thought it was automated, similar to the compile farm
[16:22:03] <skunkworks> cradek: did you do any more with your bridgeport?
[16:23:13] <cradek> the control is getting worse - it shuts off or crashes at random times - yesterday it did it while cutting
[16:23:42] <fenn> is that why you got it in the first place?
[16:23:45] <cradek> also, I've found the knee-to-saddle ways are pretty worn in the middle, I haven't really measured it to see what's going on yet though.
[16:24:01] <cradek> fenn: not really, it was represented as being a reliable machine
[16:24:29] <cradek> fenn: if I intended to use it as-is, I'd be pretty pissed.
[16:25:04] <skunkworks> way scraping in your future? This is a gib style machine - correct?
[16:25:13] <cradek> to be honest though, I haven't done obvious things to fix the control, like move all the low-voltage transformers to the "good" power leg
[16:25:29] <cradek> skunkworks: yes it has tapered gibs adjusted with one screw
[16:25:35] <fenn> do you have three phase at your place?
[16:25:43] <cradek> fenn: no, it's on a converter
[16:25:45] <skunkworks> the one screw is 'keyed' into the gib?
[16:25:49] <cradek> skunkworks: yes
[16:26:01] <skunkworks> ok
[16:26:23] <cradek> skunkworks: when I adjust that in the center of travel, it binds at both ends
[16:26:46] <skunkworks> yeh - that is most likely wear
[16:27:11] <JymmmEMC> cradek: I hate when that happens.
[16:27:12] <skunkworks> Our big knee mill is pretty bad that way.
[16:27:31] <cradek> I'll probably just adjust it not to bind, and look the other way
[16:27:46] <cradek> if it's on the dovetails I have little hope of scraping it successfully
[16:27:53] <skunkworks> it is only a problem - if it is a problem ;)
[16:28:08] <JymmmEMC> cradek: I'd (want) to go back the the seller with baseball bat in hand and say "Hey fscker, you said this was in working condition"
[16:28:16] <cradek> to make it a little harder (haha), I think everything is chromed
[16:28:37] <skunkworks> really? the ways are chromed>
[16:28:38] <skunkworks> ?
[16:28:46] <cradek> yes
[16:28:49] <cradek> at least I think so
[16:29:04] <jepler> 16 * * * * report-if-fail emc2-doc-build
[16:29:06] <skunkworks> huh - like I say - I have no experience with bridgeports
[16:29:10] <jepler> sometimes I build it right after I make a doc change though
[16:29:40] <jepler> (if you can't read cron specifications, that means "every hour at 16 past")
[16:30:07] <JymmmEMC> I've never heard of something motion based being chromed or plated like that.
[16:30:15] <fenn> i've heard of bridgeport ways being chromed
[16:30:27] <JymmmEMC> fenn: really? I'll be damned.
[16:30:40] <skunkworks> I would think that would be very hard to fix then..
[16:30:43] <JymmmEMC> fenn: by bp themselves?
[16:30:46] <fenn> yeah
[16:31:21] <skunkworks> cradek: just to all your work on the edges for the next 10 years ;)
[16:31:25] <SWPadnos> my BP has chrome ways
[16:32:09] <fenn> just do a lot of really tall and short stuff
[16:32:25] <SWPadnos> this is what they looked like a few years ago: http://www.sover.net/~swp/mill/
[16:32:51] <cradek> yep that looks pretty familiar.
[16:33:01] <SWPadnos> except this is a manual machine
[16:33:17] <SWPadnos> can you still see the feathering (or whatever it's called)?
[16:33:21] <cradek> yes
[16:33:36] <cradek> I suspect it's the dovetail that is really worn
[16:33:52] <cradek> but I haven't tried to measure it.
[16:34:32] <cradek> with two ball bearings or short lengths of drill rod I think I can measure across them
[16:34:38] <SWPadnos> a worn dovetail shouldn't cause binding - the dovetail rides along the way
[16:35:06] <fenn> uh, the way is the dovetail
[16:35:15] <fenn> the saddle is the thing that rides on the ways
[16:35:17] <cradek> I don't follow
[16:35:34] <SWPadnos> nevermind :)
[16:35:35] <fenn> a worn saddle wouldn't cause binding, but a worn dovetail would
[16:35:52] <SWPadnos> that was what I was saying, but I misunderstood "dovetail" as "saddle"
[16:36:16] <fenn> that said, they both wear
[16:37:24] <fenn> cradek: how would you measure that distance? it must be like 10 inches
[16:37:51] <cradek> fenn: I haven't figured that out yet either
[16:38:07] <fenn> i guess you could weld a micrometer onto a long bar..
[16:38:15] <fenn> or something equally horrible
[16:38:21] <skunkworks> eww
[16:38:34] <fenn> you're only after the relative measurement
[16:38:45] <skunkworks> Dad got a cheap dial micrometer set from enco or such that goes to 12 inches.
[16:38:47] <cradek> haha, or I could put the indicator on the table, lean on the other end, and slide it
[16:38:56] <fenn> yep
[16:39:28] <fenn> i think you're measuring a different quantity when you do that
[16:39:33] <cradek> sure
[16:39:37] <fenn> it will tell you something though
[16:39:48] <cradek> it would be nice to measure flatness, but that's a whole other story
[16:40:17] <fenn> i think a precision level would be a better investment than a 12" micrometer
[16:40:18] <tomp> the tapered gib gets center pressure first, so it wears skinny in center, fat on ends. the ways wear first in center,making them opposite of gibb, ( loose center, tight ends) so system binds on ends. a little work on gib does a lot for whole slide.
[16:40:47] <cradek> tomp: oh interesting
[16:40:53] <fenn> why does a gib wear in the center?
[16:41:08] <fenn> er, did i understand that right?
[16:41:21] <tomp> when people assemble them and see that center screw alignis it, they snug it up too much
[16:41:36] <tomp> and crown it
[16:41:39] <cradek> tomp: there's only one screw, on the end
[16:42:06] <tomp> not many along the length, perp to slide direction?
[16:42:18] <cradek> nope
[16:42:19] <fenn> i think a tapered gib has one screw
[16:42:30] <fenn> any other interpretation is heresy
[16:42:31] <cradek> too bad SWPadnos has his wiper on in that photo
[16:43:00] <cradek> there's one screw, under the wiper, that moves the gib "in and out" parallel to motion
[16:43:01] <tomp> fehlman, hirshman, etc all many screws
[16:43:07] <SWPadnos> heh - want to look at hte gib adjustment?
[16:43:19] <cradek> yeah do you have another photo?
[16:43:24] <tomp> a single screw to determine 'depth' and therefore 'snug'?
[16:43:27] <SWPadnos> there's one screw, and the gib slot is tapered
[16:43:30] <cradek> yes
[16:43:33] <tomp> ok
[16:43:41] <SWPadnos> as you push it in, it increases pressure
[16:43:46] <tomp> right
[16:44:03] <cradek> it's very tapered - easy to see by eye
[16:44:04] <SWPadnos> I think the gibs aren't chromed
[16:44:11] <cradek> I agree
[16:44:15] <fenn> the saddle is tapered and the gib is tapered the other direction and together they're parallel
[16:44:18] <SWPadnos> so you should be able to grind or replace them
[16:44:25] <SWPadnos> and see what that does for you
[16:44:41] <cradek> now I have an excuse to buy a surface plate
[16:44:43] <fenn> the reason they do it that way is because it's more rigid than a puny little screw
[16:44:49] <skunkworks> there would still have to be wear on both surfaces for it to bind.
[16:45:09] <cradek> no I think it could be only the dovetail
[16:45:30] <skunkworks> I am not seeing it. :)
[16:45:44] <fenn> swp here's your bracket design, get to work: http://www.silencertests.com/miscphotos/nc/y_600.jpg
[16:46:18] <cradek> skunkworks: imagine the dovetail curves in, in the center
[16:46:25] <tomp> http://its.fvtc.edu/machshop3/BasicMill/millmaint.htm tapered gibs ( and the heretic kinds )
[16:46:36] <SWPadnos> that's a cheeeeeeesy bracket :)
[16:46:44] <SWPadnos> but it does work better than mine
[16:47:02] <fenn> tomp: i'm not saying flat gibs are heresy, just that calling flat gibs tapered is a misuse of "canonical" vocabulary, hence its heresy :)
[16:47:29] <tomp> i like the mount, cheap, simple, single pc of heavy 4" tube
[16:47:43] <SWPadnos> that's great, if you have a flat surface to connect it to
[16:47:53] <fenn> i like the way it's slanted for easy access
[16:48:07] <tomp> yeh, surface grinder, 2 spots, easy access right
[16:48:13] <cradek> tomp: http://its.fvtc.edu/machshop3/BasicMill/maint/saddlgib.jpg
[16:48:40] <tomp> cradek: got it, not what i was used to, sorry
[16:49:23] <SWPadnos> since my machine is a manual mill, I have to either bore my own bearing pockets (PITA for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it's nearly impossible to accurately measure where the screw is supposed to be relative to the bracket mounting screws) or (b) make a pocket on the back side (preferably with registration pins as well) so it can fit over the existing bearing bracket
[16:49:29] <cradek> I think that mount is actually very clever
[16:49:53] <tomp> the saddle and gib might be inspected as a unit. the dovetail should have been made harder than gib, and have some oil grooves in it.
[16:50:42] <fenn> if you cant measure it then you could make a two-part assembly that is adjustable
[16:51:00] <SWPadnos> the gib has oil grooves
[16:51:18] <tomp> hard to plumb, but ok
[16:51:21] <SWPadnos> or at leat, it should. if it doesn't, then it's badly worn :)
[16:51:26] <fenn> a bracket that bolts on to a bracket bracket
[16:51:33] <fenn> brackets on brackets ad infinitum
[16:51:56] <cradek> SWPadnos: it does :-)
[16:52:03] <SWPadnos> phew :)
[16:53:40] <tomp> great :) the shop fixed my car before the rental company could deliver the rental. i can cancell :) ( 2 hours and I'm < 12 blocks away... couldve walked but i'm supposed to wait ... arrrgh!)
[16:55:38] <tomp> new northern hydraulics catalog has 2 models of bio-diesel converters. i didnt know such were available, i thought it was just hacker stills in backyards. they convert 100 gallons of used veg oil into 100 gallons of fuel in 48 hrs.
[16:58:22] <skinnypuppy1334> There are a few biodiesel pitfalls, but interesting to know northern is even begining to carry something
[17:00:26] <SWPadnos> too funny. you can burn vegetable oil in a diesel engine anyway, with nearly no modification :)
[17:02:07] <fenn> unless you live in canada
[17:02:24] <fenn> funny i just had this conversation
[17:02:32] <skinnypuppy1334> you CAN, but it still has glycerine, gums, salt if used, and moisture... A lot of things bad for injection pumps and top compression rings... it will run on used motor oil but the metal shavings aren't too good either
[17:07:18] <skinnypuppy1334> I wasn't tryin to be a smart a#$ I just hear a lot of the straight/waste oil guys that don't know why their pump failed, or they lost compression on an engine that should have run half a million miles.
[17:08:53] <fenn> yep you should wash and filter it of course
[17:17:07] <JymmmEMC> WooHoo GPS arrived
[17:18:25] <JymmmEMC> Fsck y'all and your limit/home/encoders... we goin GPS positioning on your a55!
[17:19:01] <JymmmEMC> +- 7 ft =)
[17:19:49] <JymmmEMC> (Um, that's a joke folks!)
[17:20:06] <SWPadnos> my ass is not +/- 7 feet!
[17:24:23] <fenn> differential gps can be accurate to within a mm
[17:25:35] <fenn> "The high cutting temperatures inherent in dry machining usually soften the carbide slightly, which increases its toughness"
[17:25:42] <fenn> whoda thunk
[17:51:15] <JymmmEMC> fenn: This gos is capable of DGPS, but I need to dive into the gritty detailes of it first.
[17:51:21] <JymmmEMC> s/gos/gps/
[18:03:43] <anonimasu> haha
[18:03:46] <anonimasu> I ordered a gps today
[18:04:21] <JymmmEMC> anonimasu: anything nice?
[18:05:03] <anonimasu> GARMIN GPSMAP 76CX
[18:05:13] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: did you get that
[18:05:13] <anonimasu> ?
[18:05:13] <JymmmEMC> not the color?
[18:05:15] <anonimasu> GARMIN GPSMAP 76CX
[18:05:19] <anonimasu> yes
[18:05:30] <anonimasu> http://www.dustin.se/dacsaportal/system/pages/other/wf_image_viewer.aspx?NoCache=ffnu3h4553kxqtvungvngr45&ImageID=326720
[18:05:36] <Jymmm> I have the 76cs, wish I had the one you ordered
[18:05:47] <anonimasu> can you make maps for them?
[18:06:03] <anonimasu> I couldnt find anything about that
[18:06:07] <Jymmm> anonimasu: what do you mean MAKE maps for them?
[18:06:19] <anonimasu> make, like if I take my super map book and scan it..
[18:06:48] <Jymmm> there are some 3rd party utilities, can even DL google maps too.
[18:06:53] <anonimasu> ah
[18:06:57] <Jymmm> windows of course
[18:07:15] <anonimasu> yeah.. ofcourse
[18:07:21] <anonimasu> I have this millitary mapbook I'd like :)
[18:07:30] <anonimasu> that has all odd small roads marked..
[18:07:34] <anonimasu> and that
[18:07:42] <anonimasu> that's around where most of my customers are :)
[18:07:54] <Jymmm> anonimasu: I have some utils (somewhere) where you can grab the trackback log from the gps and parse it out too
[18:08:41] <anonimasu> nice
[18:08:48] <anonimasu> I need to go walk the dog a bit
[18:09:01] <anonimasu> I've tested this gps before :)
[18:09:11] <anonimasu> I borrowed one to find my way back to a customer :p
[18:09:26] <Jymmm> anonimasu: does it have USB AND serial?
[18:09:50] <anonimasu> I dont know :p
[18:09:56] <Jymmm> ?!
[18:10:22] <anonimasu> it has a memorycard
[18:10:32] <Jymmm> yeah miniSD
[18:10:38] <Jymmm> (FINALLY)
[18:10:58] <anonimasu> no rs232
[18:11:02] <anonimasu> only usb
[18:11:18] <Jymmm> oh, fsck that then
[18:11:27] <Jymmm> you sure?
[18:11:34] <anonimasu> yeah
[18:11:43] <anonimasu> err no..
[18:12:03] <anonimasu> https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=350
[18:12:06] <anonimasu> has both
[18:12:14] <Jymmm> ok, good
[18:12:28] <Jymmm> use serial whenever you can.
[18:12:40] <anonimasu> why?
[18:12:56] <anonimasu> well.. brb :)
[18:13:01] <anonimasu> I hope it'll arrive in 2 days
[18:13:02] <Jymmm> USB polls up to 256 device
[18:13:14] <anonimasu> zZZzzlow
[18:13:31] <Jymmm> not slow, but irratic data collection/position update
[18:15:52] <thervh> thervh is now known as alex_france
[18:16:36] <Jymmm> anonimasu: If you decide to use rechargable (Ni-MH) batteries in it, change the setting on the GPS to reflect that and use Energizer batteries. They are the only mfg I know the will repair/replace the device their used in if they ever leak.
[18:17:02] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Be sure to save the leaky batteries and ship them to Everready if you need to.
[18:28:56] <anonimasu> hm ok
[18:29:10] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I dont think I'll be running to a pc often
[18:29:18] <anonimasu> Jymmm: 99% of use will be in a car..
[18:29:20] <anonimasu> btw.. it floats :)
[18:32:36] <anonimasu> im not sure why they have the display/buttons upside down
[18:32:47] <JymmmEMC> when the cigar adapter comes loose, you'll be happy to have batteries in it
[18:33:12] <anonimasu> yep
[18:35:29] <anonimasu> im sure the one I tried had the buttons the other way
[18:35:59] <JymmmEMC> you bought a cheap fake! SUCKER!!!! LOL
[18:36:03] <anonimasu> :)
[18:36:09] <anonimasu> hehe
[18:36:13] <anonimasu> really?
[18:36:15] <anonimasu> :p
[18:36:34] <JymmmEMC> Seriously though, avoid the cheap rechargable batteries, use Energizer.
[18:36:46] <anonimasu> how are the stock ones?
[18:37:01] <JymmmEMC> they're good and have the lifetime leakage warranty on ALL they battereies they make
[18:37:15] <JymmmEMC> stock what?
[18:37:29] <anonimasu> ah dosent come with batteries :p
[18:37:45] <JymmmEMC> it would NEVER come with rechargables anyway
[18:38:22] <anonimasu> ok?
[18:38:32] <JymmmEMC> get the 2500mAh
[18:38:39] <anonimasu> dunno where :)
[18:38:46] <JymmmEMC> ebay of course
[18:38:57] <anonimasu> im in north sweden
[18:40:21] <JymmmEMC> got flash?
[18:41:30] <JymmmEMC> anonimasu:
[18:41:32] <JymmmEMC> NordicsKammakargatan 29
[18:41:32] <JymmmEMC> S-111 60 Stockholm
[18:41:32] <JymmmEMC> Sweden
[18:41:32] <JymmmEMC> Tel: (+46) 0 8 50 00 89 50
[18:41:32] <JymmmEMC> Fax: (+46) 0 8 21 78 22
[18:41:56] <JymmmEMC> http://www.energizer-eu.com/en/contact-us/our-offices
[18:43:50] <anonimasu> btw, does thoose receivers do route calculation?
[18:44:33] <anonimasu> I just realized that I tried a "garmin quest"
[18:44:59] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Eh.... sorta
[18:45:23] <anonimasu> sorta?
[18:45:36] <Jymmm> If you create a route on the PC, you can download it to the unit and it'll be perfect driveway-to-driveway directions.
[18:45:38] <Jymmm> but
[18:45:59] <jepler> so "no"
[18:46:06] <anonimasu> fuck.
[18:46:17] <Jymmm> If you say find address on the unit, the start/end point may be off from the EXACT position.
[18:46:18] <Jymmm> but
[18:47:10] <Jymmm> I did find a program that will let you take the PC maps, index them, then DL to the unit so it can do driveway-to-driveway directions from the unti directly, but I haven't tried it out yet.
[18:47:30] <anonimasu> hm.. need to call them up tomorrow and change my order.
[18:48:01] <Jymmm> Call gamin, it might be based on the Map software too, as it's just a lack of an index.
[18:48:23] <Jymmm> They have way too many fscking map products, it gets confusing what does what
[18:48:24] <anonimasu> 487eur ick.
[18:48:35] <anonimasu> I can call the place where I bought it..
[18:48:38] <Jymmm> anonimasu: fuck it, I'll call for you if you like.
[18:48:52] <Jymmm> do you plan on buying a gamin map product too?
[18:48:57] <anonimasu> no
[18:49:05] <anonimasu> need the navigation stuff..
[18:49:11] <Jymmm> then no gps will do what you want w/o maps
[18:49:22] <anonimasu> ah.. the "quest" one has great maps..
[18:49:32] <Jymmm> it's just that some GPS come with maps already
[18:49:37] <Jymmm> soem dont
[18:49:52] <anonimasu> MapSource City Select Europa
[18:49:55] <Jymmm> the Gamrin 76 can load street, topo, marine maps to it
[18:49:56] <anonimasu> is what they have
[18:49:59] <anonimasu> the routing stuff is good at it..
[18:50:37] <Jymmm> be leary, make sure it's what map set you want, sometimes it's just the minimal stuff, and not all the details like gas stations etc
[18:50:47] <anonimasu> I want thoose too..
[18:50:56] <Jymmm> just read the fine print
[18:51:03] <anonimasu> thoose things have 2gb.. of memory
[18:51:08] <anonimasu> and 500mb user..
[18:51:09] <Jymmm> url?
[18:51:54] <anonimasu> just a sec
[18:51:59] <Jymmm> np
[18:52:12] <Jymmm> fuck it, I need to call garmin anyway
[18:52:25] <anonimasu> https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=134&pID=338#
[18:52:41] <Jymmm> look at tomtom too
[18:52:58] <Jymmm> see, you have to add the maps to the unit
[18:53:21] <anonimasu> depends on where you buy it
[18:53:26] <Jymmm> ah, gotcha
[18:53:37] <Jymmm> they included it in the $800 price
[18:53:39] <anonimasu> MapSourceĀ® City Navigator North America NT DVD or City Navigator Europe NT DVD (full unlock)*
[18:53:44] <anonimasu> Preloaded City NavigatorĀ® NT for North America or Europe
[18:56:09] <anonimasu> crap.
[18:56:38] <anonimasu> :)
[18:58:52] <Jymmm> that's ok, the SW does let you DL to a PC
[18:58:56] <Jymmm> iirc
[18:59:48] <Jymmm> you can up/DL tracks, routes, maps, and waypoints
[19:00:00] <Jymmm> it's a lil kludgy, but it works
[19:00:35] <anonimasu> hm..
[19:00:35] <Jymmm> though, I havne't tried uploading a mapset after I've downloaded from the unit
[19:00:39] <anonimasu> not quite good enough..
[19:01:07] <Jymmm> then wth do you want =)
[19:01:24] <anonimasu> I want the garmin quest 2.
[19:01:25] <anonimasu> :p
[19:01:39] <Jymmm> then buy it damnit! =)
[19:01:57] <anonimasu> yeah.. but I need to try to get ahold of the company before they ship the other unit..
[19:02:09] <Jymmm> ah
[19:02:14] <anonimasu> that's the problem
[19:02:16] <Jymmm> refuse shipment maybe?
[19:02:39] <anonimasu> I'll call them tomorrow.
[19:03:04] <Jymmm> could call the CC company and void the transaction =)
[19:03:17] <anonimasu> havent paid yet..
[19:04:30] <Jymmm> if you still want he 76, just find out which mapset you need
[19:04:42] <Jymmm> I keep getting busy signal calling garmin
[19:05:11] <Jymmm> woo hoo got thru....at voice menu now
[19:05:17] <anonimasu> I want the routing functions and stuff.. I need a gps with autoroute because I cant find my way around..
[19:05:25] <Jymmm> np
[19:05:31] <anonimasu> and I want to be able to punch a route at the gps and have it find my way there..
[19:05:31] <anonimasu> :)
[19:05:34] <anonimasu> gas station.. ;)
[19:06:19] <Jymmm> i understand
[19:07:41] <anonimasu> though it looks like that 76 does it too
[19:07:44] <anonimasu> with the same mapset..
[19:07:46] <anonimasu> maybe..
[19:09:44] <anonimasu> did you get through?
[19:16:54] <Jymmm> Yeah, had to hold for 10 minutes....
[19:17:00] <Jymmm> Ok here's what he said
[19:17:18] <Jymmm> You need City Navigator to get driveway-todriveway direction on the unit itself.
[19:17:28] <Jymmm> I might have a different map product.
[19:17:44] <anonimasu> hm
[19:17:43] <anonimasu> ok
[19:18:22] <Jymmm> Yeah, I think I have metro guide,
[19:19:19] <anonimasu> can you do "find" and find as specific road?
[19:19:34] <Jymmm> you can FIND crossstreets
[19:19:39] <Jymmm> or an address
[19:19:48] <anonimasu> and make a route ther?
[19:19:52] <anonimasu> given the right map
[19:19:52] <Jymmm> sure
[19:19:54] <anonimasu> ?
[19:20:07] <anonimasu> that's what I need.. really
[19:20:42] <anonimasu> most of the time I need to find a intersection to turn at..
[19:20:46] <Jymmm> What I REALLY like is if I start entering an address, I type in the number, the begin entering int eh street, and when it's found a math it'll change views on you and you can jsut scroll down to the one you wnat
[19:20:49] <anonimasu> then drive 200m and turn left into the forest..
[19:21:02] <anonimasu> does that work for gas stations and stuff too?
[19:21:03] <Jymmm> a/math/match/
[19:21:24] <anonimasu> * anonimasu dosent really get what makes the quest better.. other the the voice functions..
[19:21:27] <Jymmm> oh theres a FIND CLOSEST feature, which will show you stuff that's near you
[19:21:36] <Jymmm> larger screen too
[19:21:41] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:21:54] <Jymmm> and I think USB only.
[19:21:56] <anonimasu> hm ok
[19:22:02] <anonimasu> I think that gps will do fine then
[19:22:03] <Jymmm> I wnated the serial port
[19:22:09] <anonimasu> given the same map as the other one..
[19:22:20] <anonimasu> it's the "find place XXXXX" that's critical
[19:22:33] <anonimasu> I get lost easily
[19:22:35] <Jymmm> dl the manual, it has scrn shots of everything
[19:22:56] <Jymmm> oh, there's a utility to DL the GPD scrn shot too as a JPG
[19:23:02] <Jymmm> GPS
[19:23:10] <Jymmm> GPS Screen Capture =)
[19:23:26] <Jymmm> I think that's what they used to write the manual
[19:23:56] <Jymmm> Be sure to signup to their email notification when updates are available
[19:24:13] <anonimasu> *looks*
[19:24:13] <Jymmm> they dont spam or sell your info
[19:25:16] <anonimasu> they look really similiar to the quest ones
[19:31:32] <Jymmm> anonimasu: I WISH they used faser cpu's in the units personally, sometimes the map updating, especaially wehn zooming in/out can be slow depending on the detail.
[19:32:06] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Maybe it's this model/brand or what I don't know cause I really havne't looked at others that closely
[19:32:25] <Jymmm> I bought mine years ago, so things have changed now.
[19:32:39] <Jymmm> not sure if Garmin has too or not.
[19:33:39] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:33:39] <anonimasu> :)
[19:33:54] <anonimasu> it looks like it'll do 99% of what the other one will
[19:33:58] <anonimasu> but it has some err 90
[19:34:18] <Jymmm> also has a jack for extenal patch antenna
[19:34:28] <Jymmm> ebay ~ $20
[19:34:35] <Jymmm> mag mount
[19:34:47] <anonimasu> the other one has a antenna foldable(bad thing)
[19:35:00] <Jymmm> 1.5GHz doesn't like water molecules (tree canopy leaves)
[19:35:56] <Jymmm> I have a gooseneck mount for my unit in the car
[19:37:33] <anonimasu> ok
[19:37:35] <anonimasu> ^_^
[19:38:41] <anonimasu> from what I can see it does what I need
[19:39:49] <Jymmm> It has it's pros/cons, but I like it other than the fact it only has 115MB storage, wanna trade?
[19:40:02] <anonimasu> :)
[19:41:04] <Jymmm> anonimasu: hey fucker, that was a question, no damn smily faces are permitted as a response!
[19:41:09] <Jymmm> anonimasu: ;)
[19:41:32] <anonimasu> no
[19:41:41] <Jymmm> anonimasu: bitch!
[19:41:47] <Jymmm> anonimasu: ROTF
[19:44:36] <anonimasu> ^_^
[19:44:48] <Jymmm> anonimasu: POWER, POWER, QUIT to turn the backlight on full power, and clear the annoying drag bar from the screen.
[19:45:22] <Jymmm> after the unit is already turned on that is
[19:46:24] <Jymmm> Press and hold the ENTER key to add the current position as a waypoint
[19:46:58] <anonimasu> ok
[19:47:11] <Jymmm> to lookup the recent FIND history, press the FIND key three times
[19:47:46] <Jymmm> find history == the things that YOU have looked for, be it an address, crossstreet, whatever
[19:48:06] <cradek> why are you typing a GPS manual into irc?
[19:48:26] <Jymmm> so if you looked up an address, but didn't save it, hitting FIND three times will display history.
[19:48:35] <Jymmm> cradek: Because these things are NOT in the manual =)
[19:49:29] <Jymmm> Or they weren't in my unit anyway
[19:49:41] <cradek> I see
[19:49:47] <cradek> just wondered.
[19:50:02] <Jymmm> I had to call and speak to the Manager of T/S just to find the light control thing.
[19:50:27] <Jymmm> the manual is pretty idiot friendly, not the whole detials of what the unit is capable of.
[19:51:21] <Jymmm> anonimasu: http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/secret.htm
[19:51:50] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: nice :)
[19:52:21] <Jymmm> anonimasu: if you go into DIAG MODE, you can read the temperature, as well as battery level.
[19:53:12] <Jymmm> anonimasu: you have a windows box?
[19:53:45] <anonimasu> yes
[19:53:54] <Jymmm> cradek: sorry, I just like/into gps'es like you're into clocks I'd suspect.
[19:54:15] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Ok, if I come across them, I'll get you soem other 3rd utilities/toys
[19:54:24] <Jymmm> 3rd party
[19:54:25] <anonimasu> nice!
[19:54:30] <anonimasu> thanks :)
[19:54:37] <Jymmm> anonimasu: np.
[19:54:55] <anonimasu> reading more and it'll do what I want..
[19:55:08] <anonimasu> if I buy the same maps as the other gps have..(though the basemap might be good enough)
[19:55:37] <anonimasu> how's the router comming along?
[19:55:54] <Jymmm> flash the unti with the latest firmware when you get it. Be sure to test connectivity at least once before flashing it though
[19:56:17] <Jymmm> anonimasu: I took a short break, getting overwhelmed by the shrotcomings.
[19:57:20] <anonimasu> :/
[19:57:22] <anonimasu> that's too bad
[19:58:10] <fenn> jymmm why dont you just get a gps module from sparkfun instead of putzing around with consumer junk
[19:58:35] <Jymmm> Well, I was hoping that the new drives (OEM750) would resolve all the stalling issues. Then to take apart the leadscrews and find some issues with the mounts + wear on the ballnut, then maybe the motors I have are underpower. I just had to take a break.
[19:58:48] <anonimasu> I know the feeling
[19:58:58] <anonimasu> im stalling on making new gearboxes..
[19:58:58] <anonimasu> :p
[19:59:12] <anonimasu> though im just lazy
[19:59:18] <Jymmm> fenn: If the gps I just received this morning won't do what I need, I'm going to buy the Gamrin 18 LVC
[19:59:53] <Jymmm> fenn: and it does have what I'm looking for.
[20:00:16] <anonimasu> fenn: I guess the hard thing is the actual maps and stuff for them
[20:00:36] <fenn> the hard thing is the stupid proprietary software for them
[20:01:02] <Jymmm> anonimasu: No, no, the unit I got today, and the garmin 18 are (basically) OEM modules, no LCD display on them
[20:01:12] <anonimasu> Jymmm: ah
[20:01:35] <Jymmm> https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=223
[20:02:00] <fenn> jymmm now that emc has double-step or whatever it's called, you have no excuse to not use emc
[20:02:21] <anonimasu> lol
[20:02:49] <anonimasu> Jymmm: why lvc?
[20:03:11] <Jymmm> anonimasu: it brings out the 1 PPS signal from the unit.
[20:03:36] <anonimasu> yeah, why do you need that?
[20:03:57] <Jymmm> timing
[20:06:08] <Jymmm> anonimasu: this is what I got today http://www.deanandara.com/Argonaut/Sensors/Gps/EverMore_1.jpg
[20:06:22] <Jymmm> the unit is 2" x 2" x 0.75"
[20:06:46] <anonimasu> ok
[20:09:37] <fenn> why is it in two boxes?
[20:10:36] <Jymmm> The big box is the gps, the little box is a UART-to-USB conveerter (which will get disassembled shortly =)
[20:10:57] <Jymmm> http://www.deanandara.com/Argonaut/Sensors/Gps/HackingEverMore.html
[20:11:01] <skinnypuppy1334> Linux question, my 6.06 machine is in the garrage, and I'm using fiesty in the house, Is there something I can do with X or terminal to see the 6.06 desktop in a window or such on the 7.04 machine?
[20:11:38] <fenn> ssh -X <your machine>
[20:11:47] <fenn> well, it wont get you a desktop
[20:12:01] <fenn> um, install vnc i guess
[20:12:25] <skinnypuppy1334> Not familiar with vnc, is it in the repository?
[20:12:38] <Jymmm> emc has remote display
[20:12:54] <fenn> yes, emc has remote display but it's rather difficult to set up (maybe?)
[20:12:59] <cradek> with unix, you don't really want a remote desktop. just run the app you want over ssh -X
[20:13:18] <cradek> if you want to run emc, just ssh -X garage, then at the prompt, emc
[20:13:37] <skinnypuppy1334> cradek, so ssh -X into it and launch EMC with the display will be on desktop?
[20:13:48] <cradek> at the prompt, type emc
[20:13:51] <cradek> you'll get the emc window
[20:14:14] <cradek> make sure the mill is turned off!
[20:14:22] <fenn> why?
[20:14:45] <cradek> because it's bad to run a mill when you're in another part of the house?
[20:14:57] <fenn> coulda fooled me :P
[20:15:03] <skinnypuppy1334> I just want to run emc sim mode from inside... no A/C in garrage
[20:15:11] <cradek> yep
[20:15:19] <fenn> oh in that case just install emc on the other computer with sim mode
[20:15:22] <cradek> or, just build emc-sim on your fiesty
[20:15:29] <fenn> er, built it i mean
[20:15:32] <skinnypuppy1334> without installing on 7.04 and having two sets of files
[20:15:40] <fenn> there should be emc-sim packages
[20:15:56] <cradek> fenn: no, he has to build from source
[20:16:02] <fenn> why?
[20:16:38] <skinnypuppy1334> mean build from source onto 704 right?
[20:16:42] <cradek> dependencies probably don't match
[20:16:43] <cradek> skinnypuppy1334: yes
[20:17:14] <fenn> skinnypuppy1334: maybe this is too much, but you can mount a remote filesystem on your computer with "nfs" so the remote directory appears locally
[20:17:31] <fenn> that's one place linux hasnt become user friendly enough
[20:17:43] <skinnypuppy1334> fenn thanks also, pretty familiar with drive mapping
[20:18:04] <fenn> although a better solution would be to use a version control system like svn
[20:19:24] <fenn> anyone know if there is a vcs that "knows" when a file has changed and automatically gets the new version?
[20:19:47] <fenn> unison does something like that but it's more of a backup/sync utility
[20:19:51] <jepler> mumble .. cvs .. cron ?
[20:20:59] <fenn> skinnypuppy1334: btw sshfs is like nfs but less sucky
[20:21:25] <skinnypuppy1334> thanks for the help again cradek, I worked out a price list with steppers and hardware at ~900 dollars yesterday geckos,pmdx motherboard.. Servos aren't very much more, but who's making servo breakout boards? Don't see any on pmdx.com
[20:21:37] <skinnypuppy1334> fenn I'll look into both
[20:22:09] <fenn> what is a servo breakout board?
[20:23:07] <SWPadnos> skinnypuppy1334, it's uncommon to run servos with step and direction signals, so there isn't much of a market for servo drive breakout boards
[20:23:45] <fenn> why wouldnt you just use the stepper breakout board
[20:23:55] <SWPadnos> the more common approach is to use a servo interface card of some sort, which will output analog control signals and read back encoders
[20:24:04] <skinnypuppy1334> I haven't built my own implementation yet, I see gecko 340 servo drivers are the same price as g210 stepper drivers, how does the servo implementation work?
[20:24:27] <fenn> it takes step/dir from the pc and has a PID loop in the controller
[20:24:29] <SWPadnos> fenn, the breakout boards are usable, but PMDX (and otehrs) have carrier boards that include other connections - you mount the geckos to them
[20:25:38] <SWPadnos> also, servos can be major power hogs (the G320 can drive 20A), whereas steppers are lower power in general
[20:25:51] <skinnypuppy1334> I was looking at the pmdx 131 motherboard as it looks like a clean combination with geckos
[20:26:22] <SWPadnos> yep = it's very clean
[20:26:24] <skinnypuppy1334> But was doing a price comparison on the servo vs stepper.
[20:26:26] <fenn> oh i see.. the gecko screw terminal pins plug into the pmdx
[20:26:36] <SWPadnos> right - those terminals are removable
[20:26:53] <fenn> swp you just need to contact a bunch of people who got pmdx motherboards and see if they will send you their screw terminal connectors :)
[20:26:58] <SWPadnos> bastid
[20:27:08] <SWPadnos> they're not compatible :(
[20:28:11] <skinnypuppy1334> So what would replace the pmdx 131 in a servo setup ? Servo interface card. Have some links?
[20:28:32] <SWPadnos> http://www.linuxcnc.org/ - look under hardware compatibility (or some such)
[20:29:35] <fenn> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
[20:29:40] <SWPadnos> err - click links, then hardware
[20:29:44] <SWPadnos> or go to the wiki ;)
[20:30:10] <skinnypuppy1334> Thanks, checking that
[20:33:05] <skinnypuppy1334> looks pricey, is there any other real advantage of servos other than the stepper torque fall off with high feed?
[20:33:42] <fenn> you cant lose steps, resolution is way better
[20:34:08] <fenn> less noisy
[20:34:28] <fenn> that stepper (mis) harmony can get on your nerves
[20:35:34] <fenn> btw you probably wont be stepping fast enough to notice torque falloff
[20:35:52] <jepler> servo amplifiers can also have audible noise due to the PWM switching frequency
[20:36:07] <skinnypuppy1334> Can a stepper system emulate a servo using lightwheel or other optoelectric feedback?
[20:36:09] <fenn> bah
[20:36:20] <SWPadnos> and it's dependent on gain as well. servos driven with geckos "sing" as they dither between adjacent encoder edges
[20:36:47] <fenn> a constant 20khz is way less annoying than bweeeeee brtt brt brt bweee bwee mmmmm zooooooooooooo nt
[20:36:53] <SWPadnos> they tend to be quiet in operation though
[20:37:09] <jepler> skinnypuppy1334: possibly maybe in theory, but nobody who comes up with the idea seems to follow it with a working system
[20:37:18] <skinnypuppy1334> funny fenn, I have heard some horrendous ones on youtube though
[20:37:19] <jepler> but don't let me tell you "no" because fenn doesn't like when I do that
[20:37:27] <SWPadnos> I like the whoosh of the mazak servos, though it's hard to tell if they're loud due to the cooling fans
[20:37:38] <skinnypuppy1334> Jepler just came to mind as a quick closed loop feedback
[20:38:13] <SWPadnos> it's not an easy problem with steppers, and there needs to be support in the drive to get feedback about impending stalls *before* they happen
[20:38:27] <fenn> skinnypuppy1334: what you have then is a crappy improperly designed AC servo, but yes in theory it should work with some software fiddling
[20:38:46] <SWPadnos> Mariss at geckodrive is working on just such a stepper drive, but he doesn't expect it to be available until roughly the end of this year
[20:39:11] <fenn> skinnypuppy1334: but keep in mind it would _only_ work in emc
[20:39:36] <skinnypuppy1334> Ok it's already loud as hell, I converted my 2 car garrage with a 13x40 lathe, a 17x10ft lathe, mill, and surface grinder
[20:40:00] <SWPadnos> crank all those up and you won't hear the steppers ;)
[20:40:00] <fenn> SWPadnos: you dont need to know about it before it happens with an encoder
[20:40:16] <SWPadnos> yes you do if you want to get proper motion
[20:40:21] <skinnypuppy1334> Pretty much, it's so small anything is loud as hell
[20:40:26] <SWPadnos> once a stall occurs, it's already too late to recover
[20:40:34] <SWPadnos> (in many/most cases, theoretically)
[20:40:35] <fenn> no it's not, that's what i've been saying the last week or so
[20:40:41] <fenn> emc has adaptive feed right?
[20:40:48] <SWPadnos> yes
[20:40:53] <fenn> feed back following error to adaptive feed to slow the planner down
[20:41:16] <SWPadnos> that will be a pretty unstable system
[20:41:22] <fenn> then you can use PID on the stepper to get back to where you want
[20:41:32] <fenn> yeah it would be a bitch to tune since you now have an extra tuning parameter
[20:41:53] <anonimasu> hm
[20:41:54] <skinnypuppy1334> Thank all you guys for the help and experience, just wanting to be certain not to end up with something I want to replace any time soon.
[20:42:02] <anonimasu> mariss posted that this dosent work well with step&dir drives
[20:42:14] <anonimasu> and that he's working on other drives that will do current/vel mode or something like that
[20:42:23] <SWPadnos> steppers need negatve feedback until things "clear up", at which time you want to switch to positive feedback. I don't want to tune the first setup of that nature
[20:42:59] <cradek> fenn: if you're moving diagonally and one axis stalls, you ARE too late, you're already off the path.
[20:43:04] <SWPadnos> (or the other way around - I could have those signs reversed)
[20:43:10] <SWPadnos> ding!
[20:43:13] <fenn> cradek: yes and that happens constantly in a servo system
[20:43:28] <SWPadnos> also, as someone on the gecko list pointed out, if you're threading, say good night
[20:43:55] <fenn> yeah no threading at max speed here
[20:43:56] <cradek> uh, no it doesn't. servos don't stop at full speed.
[20:44:19] <ds2> sounds like you need a materials deposition tool in your tool changer setup ;)
[20:44:27] <SWPadnos> fenn, a servo has reasonable control resolution - you generally get 10-12 bits or more of output resolution. if you're behind a little bit, you can increase the command a little bit
[20:44:58] <SWPadnos> steppers only have steps, and even though those steps are a small fraction of an inch, they're a coarse control
[20:45:06] <SWPadnos> on a fast time scale, that is
[20:45:29] <fenn> 2000 microsteps/rev is not all that coarse
[20:45:30] <cradek> it's true pid runs with an error that varies a bit. it's not comparable to a stepper stall.
[20:45:53] <fenn> (its about the resolution of my servos)
[20:46:04] <SWPadnos> that's why I tried to differentiate between control resolution and spatial resolution
[20:46:18] <fenn> ok
[20:46:35] <SWPadnos> I can output any of 1024 (minimum) velocity commands to a servo (using the Mesa PWM servo card)
[20:46:58] <SWPadnos> if the servo lags a little behind, I can tell it to go at speed 239 instead of speed 238
[20:47:17] <SWPadnos> with a stepper, the only resolution is "go another step", please
[20:47:20] <fenn> the servo has to lag behind to make PID work
[20:47:28] <anonimasu> fenn: feedforward..
[20:47:33] <fenn> otherwise you have P*0+I*0
[20:47:35] <skinnypuppy1334> SWPadnos, are you refering to the way even one step is 360/200 +- tolerance
[20:47:36] <SWPadnos> yes, it does lag a little, within the error band
[20:47:56] <SWPadnos> skinnypuppy1334, no - I'm not talking about position at all, just how coarse the control is
[20:48:46] <SWPadnos> if I'm telling you to go to a certain address, and I can only tell when you cross an intersection, and I can also only tell you to go another block, it'll be hard to get to the right house, no?
[20:49:08] <SWPadnos> but if I can tell you"slow down a bit, you're close", it would be easier
[20:49:15] <jepler> there has got to be a good, inappropriate use for a 5# roll of steel wool http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=95734
[20:49:21] <fenn> ok i see what you're saying.. if i lag behind 4 microsteps i have about 2 bits of control
[20:49:34] <SWPadnos> right - there's not much gray area in there
[20:49:37] <fenn> jepler: make magnetorhelogical fluid
[20:49:46] <SWPadnos> ewwww
[20:49:47] <cradek> jepler: it burns...
[20:50:05] <SWPadnos> oh - I love that: cleaning whitewall tires
[20:50:06] <fenn> the oxide is magnetic and makes pretty shapes when immersed in mineral oil
[20:50:38] <cradek> SWPadnos: we used SOS pads (steel wool with soap? in them)
[20:50:48] <SWPadnos> I remember SOS pads :)
[20:50:58] <SWPadnos> I wonder if those are RoHS compoliant
[20:51:03] <SWPadnos> compliant
[20:52:02] <fenn> what we need is a nanostep driver
[20:52:08] <skinnypuppy1334> I haven't had time to look into this, but how many mw and type of laser is used to print on metal?
[20:52:12] <SWPadnos> picostep
[20:52:15] <SWPadnos> hey - we almost have that
[20:52:21] <fenn> ya
[20:52:26] <jepler> what do you mean by nanostep?
[20:52:39] <SWPadnos> smaller than microsteps ;)
[20:52:48] <fenn> there was some DIY stepper drive that was "analog" i.e. no microsteps - it output a sinewave
[20:52:57] <SWPadnos> linistepper
[20:52:59] <SWPadnos> I think
[20:52:58] <fenn> yeah
[20:53:13] <jepler> http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/index.htm
[20:53:27] <jepler> it can't be a good idea
[20:53:43] <SWPadnos> I think it's unipolar
[20:53:44] <jepler> lots of heat dissipation + unipolar
[20:54:12] <jepler> and finer steps doesn't solve the "s-curve" nonlinear response of motors to sinusoidal microstepping
[20:54:30] <fenn> it does give you more control in a fake-servo setup
[21:10:38] <fenn> i wonder why rotary tables never have a deep recess in the middle for a chuck
[21:10:51] <fenn> all you really need is the ring around the outisde for the worm gear
[21:11:16] <fenn> i would hate to end up with something like this http://www.piclist.com/images/member/KPD-DCNC-/johanbudgen1.JPG
[21:11:26] <SWPadnos> I have one with a morse taper in the center
[21:11:35] <SWPadnos> or a jacobs, not sure
[21:11:51] <fenn> thats even worse
[21:12:09] <anonimasu> fenn: buy a low building chuck..
[21:12:20] <anonimasu> and a proper chuck adaptor for the rotary table..
[21:12:20] <fenn> a low building chuck?
[21:12:54] <anonimasu> a rotary table chuck(real one) has recessed screws.. to fasten it..
[21:12:56] <anonimasu> through bolts..
[21:13:41] <SWPadnos> oh - that kind of chuck
[21:14:08] <anonimasu> ofcourse it depends on what you need to clamp
[21:15:17] <fenn> anonimasu: preferably something that also fits on a lathe you own
[21:15:48] <fenn> and can be centered more or less automatically on the rotary table
[21:16:12] <anonimasu> fenn: well, why are we even discussing?
[21:16:19] <anonimasu> fenn: you can just buy that kind of stuff..
[21:16:19] <fenn> no particular reason
[21:16:24] <anonimasu> :)
[21:16:32] <fenn> i dont think you can buy what i'm describing
[21:17:31] <anonimasu> there are torque motor rotary tables..
[21:18:28] <fenn> http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/irc/rotary-table.png
[21:18:39] <anonimasu> fenn: did you think about hor much torque that worm gear needs to transmit?
[21:18:50] <fenn> no
[21:19:02] <SWPadnos> a lot
[21:19:08] <fenn> O RLY
[21:19:17] <anonimasu> fenn: I think the size of the worm gear comes from that
[21:19:26] <anonimasu> probably the bearing arrangement too
[21:19:39] <anonimasu> http://www.rarodriguez.co.uk/rod44.JPG
[21:19:43] <anonimasu> there's a rotary table
[21:19:51] <fenn> i think it is because they are designed to be "tables" not "chuck holders"
[21:20:01] <fenn> even if most people use them for chuck holders
[21:20:08] <SWPadnos> anonimasu, that is a beautiful piece of equipment
[21:20:13] <fenn> yeah that looks very nice
[21:20:21] <anonimasu> I want it
[21:20:25] <SWPadnos> indeed
[21:20:25] <anonimasu> torque motor I think
[21:20:36] <fenn> is it pneumatic?
[21:20:40] <SWPadnos> that looks like it's just the bearings and switches
[21:20:46] <anonimasu> no, it's not it's a motor
[21:20:48] <fenn> torque motors dont have bearings usually
[21:21:02] <SWPadnos> there are some big-ass torque motors coming out very soon
[21:21:10] <anonimasu> wait
[21:21:13] <SWPadnos> just about everyone who does motion will have those soon
[21:21:21] <SWPadnos> (THK, NSK, HiWin ...)
[21:23:05] <anonimasu> ah machine tool bearing sorrt
[21:23:07] <anonimasu> sorry..
[21:23:18] <Guest666> Guest666 is now known as skunkworks
[21:23:31] <fenn> "for use with torque motor" :)
[21:23:36] <fenn> just guessing
[21:23:38] <SWPadnos> I thought it was missing some wires there :)
[21:23:49] <SWPadnos> plus those would be awfully thin coils
[21:23:51] <anonimasu> http://images.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ruchservomotor.com/html/picture/rotary_direct_drive.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ruchservomotor.com/html/torque_table_T36.htm&h=645&w=880&sz=66&hl=sv&start=3&um=1&tbnid=9ViOZPtMMimxWM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=146&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtorque%2Bmotor%2Brotary%2Btable%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dsv%26sa%3DG
[21:24:24] <fenn> ya they're hollow but there's no chuck mount
[21:25:46] <fenn> but if you look at their cross-section diagram of a traditional rotary table it looks like it would be easy to flip upside down
[21:26:09] <fenn> well.. sorta
[21:26:13] <SWPadnos> http://www.us.nsk.com/public/enu/1001_1980.asp
[21:26:50] <anonimasu> $$$
[21:26:58] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: yeah
[21:27:37] <fenn> omg how do you count at 20MHz
[21:28:06] <fenn> i guess that's not so fast really
[21:30:17] <anonimasu> http://www.bmumford.com/rotary/rt2.jpg
[21:30:22] <anonimasu> that's a low building chuck..
[21:32:47] <fenn> silly t-slots
[21:34:33] <anonimasu> I like them usually
[21:36:43] <anonimasu> ^_^
[21:37:23] <SWPadnos> there were other motors that could go 800 RPM and had 20-bit resolution encoders
[21:37:32] <anonimasu> ^_^
[21:37:35] <anonimasu> NICE
[21:37:37] <SWPadnos> yeah
[21:37:42] <SWPadnos> and high torque too
[21:38:09] <SWPadnos> I ws looking at them for a robot application, and they didn't have any small enough for us O_O
[21:38:24] <fenn> what counts as high torque?
[21:38:42] <SWPadnos> in this case, 10 Nm or so, I think
[21:38:49] <SWPadnos> those were the smallest ones
[21:38:57] <fenn> * fenn searches for datasheet and fails
[21:38:59] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:39:34] <fenn> it's not too much to ask is it?
[21:40:46] <SWPadnos> http://www.us.nsk.com/library/catalogs/Motors/E3510C-PS%20MEGATORQUE%20MOTORS.PDF
[21:41:00] <SWPadnos> it's the "product line PDF" link from the page I linked to
[21:41:45] <fenn> No matches found for 'product line'.
[21:42:09] <SWPadnos> oops - "Download PS Motor Catalog", top right
[21:42:19] <SWPadnos> under "related Literature"
[21:42:35] <Jymmm> the direct link works for me
[21:43:21] <SWPadnos> ok - looks like 2 Nm minimum
[21:43:41] <SWPadnos> and 2.4kg motor mass
[21:49:25] <Jymmm> Hey this GPS has an XYZ position element!!!
[21:49:36] <Jymmm> in meters!
[21:49:50] <Jymmm> velocity too!
[21:50:00] <fenn> does it have step/dir output?
[21:50:11] <fenn> you could play CNC tag
[21:50:17] <Jymmm> I'm only on pg 14 of the manual, it could =)
[21:51:01] <Jymmm> Well, ok, I lied.... I'm using the chipset mfg demo software, not the sw from the gps mfg
[21:51:11] <Jymmm> which there is none =)
[21:52:19] <Jymmm> I never knew there was THIS much to GPS that you could get your hands on.
[21:53:51] <fenn> gps that uses the raw phase information of the signal is pretty cool
[21:53:57] <fenn> i dont know if anyone's accomplished it yet
[21:55:01] <JymmmEMC> I'm seeing everything atm.
[22:05:02] <Jymmm> fenn: I dont' say I KNWO what I'm seeing, but I'm seeing it =)
[22:05:54] <fenn> are you at one with the universe?
[22:06:54] <anonimasu> lol
[22:08:13] <ds2> and is the universe real?
[22:10:09] <Jymmm> fenn: I just now know my places in the universe.
[22:10:33] <Jymmm> Yes Dorthy, the Meaning of Life really is 42
[22:11:07] <Jymmm> LOL.... the current week is: 1442
[22:11:20] <Jymmm> I didn't even see that till after I said that!
[22:13:54] <anonimasu> Jymmm: overwehelmed?
[22:14:18] <Jymmm> anonimasu: By the sheer about of data, oh yeah
[22:14:30] <anonimasu> ^_^
[22:14:32] <anonimasu> inght
[22:14:35] <fenn> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 20th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3173
[22:14:36] <anonimasu> err night..
[22:14:40] <Jymmm> G'night fenn
[22:14:46] <fenn> nite jymmm
[22:14:55] <Jymmm> err I mena anonimasu
[22:15:03] <Jymmm> fenn: I'm still here
[22:15:13] <fenn> (damn)
[22:15:21] <Jymmm> fenn: (sowwwwy)
[22:15:34] <Jymmm> Like hell I am =)
[22:17:34] <Jymmm> fenn: Eh, you know you love me
[22:26:08] <fenn> those motors have 6Nm peak torque minimum.. up to 90Nm for the big one (150mm x 170mm)
[22:27:22] <fenn> anyway its overkill for a cnc mill
[22:29:09] <fenn> i keep getting spam accusing me of having an affair with someone's wife, its kinda disturbing
[22:29:21] <fenn> "if her husband sees this video you are both dead"
[22:29:54] <ds2> are you? ;)
[22:30:09] <ds2> and when did it end?
[22:30:49] <fenn> it's part of a set, they have a youtube url that goes to some ip address when you click on it; i havent clicked on it
[22:32:14] <jlmjvm> swpadnos:r u in here
[23:44:15] <dmessier> hi all
[23:50:06] <Jymmm> fenn: You were suppose to send that to someone ELSE, not yourself
[23:57:19] <dmess> who can help me compile libf2c???
[23:59:43] <jepler> dmess: if on ubuntu, why not try installing libf2c and libf2c-dev instead of compiling from scracth