#emc | Logs for 2007-07-28

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[00:04:26] <anonimasu> nice machine
[00:05:53] <archivist> this place is full of antique machines
[00:12:01] <Ziegler> sound like the shop I play at
[00:15:23] <archivist> some of them are specialised so dont fall out of use like the clock gear cutting machines
[00:15:34] <Ziegler> neat
[00:16:23] <archivist> the bosses fav pinion machine is 1930's, I use the mid 50's one
[00:31:47] <Jymmm> * Jymmm just got back from Thomson mfg facility
[00:32:51] <Jymmm> as in Thomson Ball screws
[00:33:39] <ds2> they are local?
[00:33:50] <Jymmm> yep
[00:34:14] <ds2> did they solve your problem?
[00:35:18] <Jymmm> They at least gave me an idea as to what the problem might be. They also took a look at the ballscrew and nut.
[00:35:29] <Jymmm> which is what I really wanted
[00:35:50] <Jymmm> Can't do much better than the mfg plant and defects/malfunctions
[00:36:08] <ds2> did they find anything wrong with your nut/ballscrew?
[00:36:51] <Jymmm> Nothing with the screw; the nut showing wear and migth be an issue with the tube clamp
[00:38:05] <Jymmm> The original balls were .1245, they loaded it up with .1248, still some play, and said it might go up to .1250
[00:38:41] <Jymmm> I'll load up the .1250 in a little bit.
[00:39:42] <ds2> where did you find an assortment of balls?
[00:40:09] <Jymmm> I got the balls from them, but I know a place in LA that has sample kits.
[00:41:15] <Jymmm> Now, I just need to find some ziplock bags!!!
[00:41:52] <ds2> Tap!
[00:42:26] <Jymmm> they close in a little bit... I have some around here somewhere... My gf probably has some I coudl steal
[00:43:28] <Jymmm> I'm gonna double bag em too =)
[00:43:36] <Jymmm> too hard to come by
[01:35:49] <Jymmm> has anyone ever hand-loaded ballnuts before?
[02:19:43] <toast> nein.
[02:40:07] <toast> toast is now known as toastydeath
[03:11:17] <Jymmm> What, everyone hiding?
[03:15:07] <toastydeath> ?
[04:24:37] <ds2> wheeeeeeeeee lathe moved
[04:30:01] <LawrenceG> quick...catch it before it gets away...
[04:31:24] <ds2> Hot potatoe!
[04:57:37] <Jymmm> lol @ LawrenceG
[04:58:30] <LawrenceG> hey Jymmm
[04:58:55] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: how ya doin (watching a movie, takinf a smoke break atm)
[05:00:44] <LawrenceG> talking to another ham on skype.... atm
[05:13:49] <toastydeath> now that's irony, that righ there
[05:15:16] <ds2> Hams on skype?
[05:15:39] <toastydeath> yes
[05:15:49] <toastydeath> layers of subtle humor.
[05:16:06] <ds2> the skype is running over packet radio, right? =)
[05:17:27] <toastydeath> hahahaha
[05:27:22] <LawrenceG> pretty bad packet loss over the 60km I am using
[05:28:04] <LawrenceG> seems much better when I stop searching ebay!!!
[05:29:30] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Now, that's pretty lame
[05:29:49] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: tell who you're talking to I said that as well!
[05:29:52] <LawrenceG> * LawrenceG hiding in shame...
[05:30:23] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: their QTH?
[05:30:46] <ds2> Antarica!
[05:30:48] <LawrenceG> anyway... headed to bed... other ham is in Port Alberni on Vancouver Island
[05:31:05] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: WTF?!
[05:31:26] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Shit, you two can talk in the local repeater if nothign else
[05:31:25] <LawrenceG> * LawrenceG wimp... I know
[05:32:01] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Hell, almost simplex
[05:32:08] <LawrenceG> hey.. due to house reno... all vhf antennas are on the ground... could use 80mtrs though
[05:32:21] <LawrenceG> loop is still up
[05:32:22] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: HT
[05:32:43] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: roll up J pole!
[05:32:54] <LawrenceG> I am too far out of town for the rubber ducky...
[05:33:02] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: roll up J pole!
[05:33:12] <LawrenceG> could work
[05:33:16] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: LOL
[05:33:24] <Jymmm> gawd that's lame! LOL
[05:33:41] <Jymmm> no wonder they keep trying to take bandplans away from us
[05:33:47] <Jymmm> law ;)
[05:33:53] <Jymmm> lol
[05:34:11] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: ok, enjoy... aback ot my movie...
[05:34:21] <LawrenceG> cheers... goodnight
[05:35:35] <LawrenceG> <LawrenceG> cheers... goodnight
[06:38:52] <toastydeath> pew pew pew
[07:11:14] <ds2> Hmmmmm
[07:11:33] <ds2> Emco machine designs sure get copied a lot...
[07:34:16] <Jymmm> ?
[07:34:31] <Jymmm> url?
[07:46:14] <toastydeath> ?
[07:47:00] <toastydeath> emco is one of the machine builders that buys the parts from chineese foundaries
[07:47:11] <toastydeath> and assembles them
[07:47:17] <toastydeath> like grizzly, msc, hf, etc
[07:47:23] <Jymmm> ah
[07:47:45] <toastydeath> some people apply extra finishing processes, most don't
[07:47:53] <toastydeath> i'm not sure if emco does their own finishing or has the foundry do it
[07:48:40] <toastydeath> so if you see two lathes that look identical, it's because they are
[07:50:24] <ds2> oh is that why
[07:50:49] <ds2> I was just reading the stuff on www.lathes.co.uk and it seems a ton of the import lathes look just like them
[07:51:23] <toastydeath> most of the import lathes DO copy a pre-existing lathe
[07:51:41] <toastydeath> so i guess if emco has the oldest one, that's probably the original
[07:51:41] <ds2> just seem odd that they are mostly emcos
[07:51:54] <ds2> the 9x20, the Unimat stuff
[07:52:10] <toastydeath> like a lot of the bigger imports, the ones from the Taiwan foundaries (much better)
[07:52:17] <toastydeath> copy the Clausing and Leblond lathes
[07:52:39] <toastydeath> Birmingham/Sharp/etc
[07:53:07] <ds2> ah must be the desktop stuff that i look at
[07:54:15] <toastydeath> both
[07:54:22] <toastydeath> desktop and engine lathes
[07:54:40] <toastydeath> same deal, all brands come from the same two or three massive foundaries overseas
[07:55:29] <toastydeath> but i'm not familiar with the older stuff of some brands, when they may have been original to that brand
[07:56:33] <toastydeath> i.e. the particular emco lathe you are talking about
[07:56:37] <toastydeath> so it may not apply.
[08:02:00] <toastydeath> can emc handle grinders and similar equipment?
[09:18:09] <toastydeath> this sleep medicine is some strong stuff
[12:25:39] <jepler> more importantly, can it handle tomato milling machines? http://www.ekitchengadgets.com/lapaeltomima.html?CS_003=740477&CS_010=lapaeltomima
[12:31:31] <toastydeath> hoggin!
[13:21:03] <lerneaen_hydra> jepler: 450 watts just to mill tomotos?
[13:21:12] <lerneaen_hydra> sounds quite excessive
[13:21:37] <lerneaen_hydra> it's not like they're particularly hard to machine
[13:24:04] <skunkworks> its all about speed. Milling a tomato at 10000ipm take power.
[13:25:01] <tomp> yeh, when the users push the stuff thru the mill, rather than wait for it to work
[13:26:38] <tomp> when the feedback is based on how long the user waits, the control loop usually suffers ;)
[14:15:19] <lerneaen_hydra> anyone here know what the EMC plugin for eagle was called?
[14:29:28] <cradek> do you mean the pcb routing gcode generator script jepler and I wrote? http://unpy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/eagle/ulp/
[14:31:00] <lerneaen_hydra> yes I think so
[14:31:33] <cradek> also you may want the `traveling salesman' path optimizer: http://unpy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tsp/
[14:31:57] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, nice
[14:32:28] <lerneaen_hydra> I don't quite remember, was there a general solution to the traveling salesman problem that wasn't extremely math intensive?
[14:32:30] <cradek> the eagle script generates gcode that can be optimized with that, it helps a lot
[14:33:13] <cradek> this program gives a quite good solution in 10 seconds of cpu time for a reasonable size of gcode
[14:33:54] <cradek> I think the algorithm we used is guaranteed to be no worse than 2x the best possible solution
[14:34:05] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, nice
[14:34:19] <cradek> judging by eyeball, it gives quite good results
[14:34:46] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, nice
[14:35:15] <lerneaen_hydra> in general though, is the traveling salesman NP complete?
[14:35:37] <cradek> the problem is tsp is about visiting points, so it's not a solution for general gcode which is vectors. but pcb routing is done with all closed paths, so you can optimize the rapids by considering the cutting paths as points
[14:36:36] <lerneaen_hydra> ah, neat
[14:37:55] <skunkworks> hmm - vaccuming off my portables keyboard seems to have fixed it.. Time will tell. Tons of cat hair.
[14:38:08] <skunkworks> (unhooked of cource)
[14:38:32] <cradek> I had a cat/keyboard prolbem too recently - but it was the "cat and various keyboard parts go flying" type
[14:39:01] <lerneaen_hydra> haha
[14:39:49] <cradek> she was just stepping on the keyboard, which was near the edge of the counter, when she started falling off the couter...
[14:40:02] <skunkworks> I can see that :)
[14:40:57] <lerneaen_hydra> my cats seem to have an aversion to stepping on keyboards, or rather anything lying on a desk
[14:41:03] <skunkworks> last time I vacummed off this keyboard - I was using the shop vac which has a bit too much vacumm.. I ended up sucking a key off the board.
[14:41:05] <lerneaen_hydra> quite practical actually
[14:41:12] <lerneaen_hydra> heh
[14:41:46] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: yeah that sounds very useful
[14:46:24] <skunkworks> cats are not as smooth as they would like you to believe.
[14:53:54] <cradek> I suppose they say the same about people not being as smart as they want you to think.
[14:55:27] <skunkworks> ;)
[15:55:01] <floppy1234> hello fans
[15:55:06] <floppy1234> someone in here?
[15:56:12] <mcfloppy1> reh
[15:56:32] <jepler> mcfloppy1: pretty quiet right now
[15:56:38] <jepler> but welcome
[16:00:42] <lerneaen_hydra> anyone here remember the page that had various parts for holding onto a circuit board when milling/drilling it?
[16:00:54] <lerneaen_hydra> some rather nice holders
[16:01:09] <floppy1234> re
[16:01:16] <floppy1234> sorry..... very bad wlan
[16:01:41] <jepler> floppy1234: yuck
[16:02:16] <floppy1234> i hope it is stable now
[16:02:48] <floppy1234> i have a problem with emc
[16:03:03] <floppy1234> i want to control a servopneumatic axis
[16:03:59] <floppy1234> when i clic "+" the axis hop a litle bit and then emc says joint error on axis 0...
[16:04:01] <floppy1234> what can this be?
[16:04:47] <jepler> a "following error on joint N" means that the distance between the desired position and the feedback position is too great
[16:05:23] <floppy1234> hmmmm okay... can i set this distance higher?
[16:05:41] <floppy1234> for testing
[16:05:40] <jepler> this can either mean that the setup is completely wrong (for instance, when emc tries to command a move in one direction, the motor actually moves the other way)
[16:05:46] <jepler> or that the "PID tuning" is poor
[16:06:01] <floppy1234> hmm okay....
[16:06:09] <jepler> yes, the way to increase the distance is documented in the manual. Just this once, I'll find it for you
[16:06:20] <jepler> the manual is always available from the menu at the top of the screen, assuming you're running ubuntu
[16:07:26] <floppy1234> i drive with pwm on parport, at the moment is one pwm signal for each axis and two direction signals. is there a way to pwm modulate each of the direction signals?
[16:07:48] <jepler> in the User Manual PDF, see section number 5.3.7 and read down to the descrition of MIN_FERROR and FERROR.
[16:07:50] <floppy1234> jepler yes i've the manuals
[16:08:10] <jepler> OK, the point is that you change the value of MIN_FERROR and FERROR to make emc wait longer before signalling a joint following error
[16:08:38] <jepler> "longer" in distance between desired and actual position, not "longer" in time
[16:08:56] <floppy1234> yes okay
[16:09:11] <floppy1234> how can i optimize the PID?
[16:09:24] <jepler> the manual page for pwmgen (at a terminal, type "man pwmgen") describes 3 distinct modes. One of the modes is called "up/down", and may be the mode you desire.
[16:10:09] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Tuning_EMC2/HAL_PID_Loops
[16:10:19] <jepler> "Tuning is a difficult topic. Everybody has their own preferred way to do it, and each way has its good and bad points. There is usually a lot of trial and error involved. Experience and intuition both help, but both are very hard to explain to others.
[16:10:22] <floppy1234> okay
[16:10:23] <jepler> "
[16:10:31] <jepler> I don't personally have much experience with servo systems, so I have to defer to what others have written on the subject..
[16:10:47] <floppy1234> can you tell me values to start?
[16:11:25] <jepler> hm I thought there was at least one other page of advice on PID tuning
[16:12:30] <jepler> the values are different for every motor / machine combination, so there is no one starting point
[16:12:58] <jepler> they depend on the power of the motor, the characteristics of the motor driver, the amount of mass moved, the amount of friction, etc. -- very individualized
[16:14:07] <floppy1234> hm okay
[16:14:12] <floppy1234> so i must try
[16:14:48] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers
[16:14:54] <cradek> there's a little tuning information here
[16:15:28] <cradek> but the author has confused together what's generic pid tuning information and what's specific to ppmc driver boards
[16:16:03] <jepler> there's also this document, but some of the formulas (which were copied from wikipedia) are for a slightly different PID algorithm than emc2's: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/motion/pid_theory/index.html
[16:16:14] <jepler> so basically ignore the section "Ziegler-Nichols method"
[16:16:34] <cradek> the starting point for every machine is probably some P gain only
[16:16:35] <jepler> the table "Effects of increasing parameters" is useful when manually tuning PID, however
[16:17:10] <jepler> "[O]ne tuning method is to first set the I and D values to zero. Increase the P until the output of the loop oscillates. Then increase I until oscillation stops. Finally, increase D until the loop is acceptably quick to reach its reference. "
[16:17:17] <jepler> -- from pid theory document
[16:17:29] <floppy1234> hmmmm
[16:17:30] <floppy1234> okay
[16:17:36] <floppy1234> i try...
[16:35:23] <mcfloppy1> jepler so, i tryed these values: "1 10 100 1000"
[16:35:40] <mcfloppy1> with 1 it dont drive... the valve gone up and down
[16:35:51] <mcfloppy1> with 10 it hops a little bit
[16:36:19] <mcfloppy1> and with 100 and more it hops exteme
[16:36:21] <mcfloppy1> extreme
[16:38:23] <mcfloppy1> moment
[16:40:06] <tomp> with your air driven system, try to simplify things and just get smooth air output, going from a quiet hiss to a roar without any 'hops'.
[16:40:16] <tomp> No linear motion yet, just try to control the valve.
[16:40:18] <tomp> until you have smooth control over the valve, you will not get smooth control over the motion.
[16:40:54] <floppy12> re
[16:41:32] <tomp> with your air driven system, try to simplify things and just get smooth air output, going from a quiet hiss to a roar without any 'hops'.
[16:41:43] <tomp> he keeps falling off the log ;)
[16:42:32] <tomp> with your air driven system, try to simplify things and just get smooth air output, going from a quiet hiss to a roar without any 'hops'.No linear motion yet, just try to control the valve.until you have smooth control over the valve, you will not get smooth control over the motion.
[16:42:59] <tomp> oh, both of him fell off
[16:48:12] <iman> Hey guys. I have a bit o problem here with the gcode generated by pcb-gcode for EMC2.The errormess says: -"Error near line 16 ... bad character". Here is the gcode if someone wants to take a peek at it: http://pastebin.ca/637146
[16:50:16] <iman> Very annoying. I would appreciate any help with this so i can do some drilling with our CNC. Doing an huge array of UV leds for a UV box and there are like 800 holes to do :-)
[16:50:52] <iman> Very annoying. I would appreciate any help with this so i can do some drilling with our CNC.
[16:51:44] <lerneaen_hydra> *cough cradek jepler cough*
[16:56:52] <dmessier> P might have too many trailing zeros
[16:56:57] <jepler> M06 T01 ; 0.8128
[16:57:02] <jepler> the error is on this line
[16:57:10] <jepler> ";" is not a valid character in emc gcode; in some dialects it indicates a comment
[16:57:33] <jepler> I don't have any idea why the line reported is 16, since that's line 12 :(
[16:57:37] <dmessier> true
[16:58:28] <jepler> iman: ^^^
[16:59:15] <jepler> P10 is likely to be longer than you want for a dwell: in emc the P-number is in seconds. Maybe you want P.01 for 10ms instead
[17:00:50] <iman> ok i'll do some changes and give it a try. thanks guys!
[17:00:58] <tomp> M06 T01 ( 0.8128 ) should pass
[17:01:19] <jepler> tomp: yeah that's probably what I'd do, if I didn't get rid of the comment entirely
[17:01:39] <tomp> or, was that a misstyped L (next to ; on keyboard) ?
[17:01:56] <tomp> an attemp to do tool length offset?
[17:02:04] <jepler> no, I'm betting that's the diameter of the tool to load
[17:02:15] <jepler> not sure though
[17:02:23] <tomp> big ass drill, oh maybe mm, even then
[17:02:36] <jepler> yes, it's a mm file
[17:03:00] <tomp> yeh , led dia could be
[17:03:17] <dmessier> only .034"
[17:04:26] <tomp> will a new cvs up contain stgII ?
[17:07:59] <jepler> tomp: yes but I don't know what state the driver is in -- one check-in note indicates that at least index pulse is untested and may be wrong for stgII
[17:08:50] <tomp> thanks, i will try to home ;)
[17:15:19] <floppy1234> o
[17:15:21] <floppy1234> so
[17:15:23] <floppy1234> i am back
[17:16:42] <tomp> floppy1234: with your air driven system, try to simplify things and just get smooth air output, going from a quiet hiss to a roar without any 'hops'.No linear motion yet, just try to control the valve.until you have smooth control over the valve, you will not get smooth control over the motion.
[17:19:38] <fenn> isnt a major problem with air servos when the air expands inside the servo after you close the valve?
[17:20:01] <tomp> yep, thats why incompressable liquids are used
[17:20:15] <tomp> instead of air
[17:20:50] <fenn> i thought a good idea might be to use air for the bulk of the power but also a small intermittent duty electrical servo to correct for that kind of error
[17:21:54] <tomp> haha bump into stuff then say 'excuse me' and back off
[17:21:53] <fenn> this is just cylinders tho right?
[17:22:05] <fenn> heh not that bad hopefully
[17:22:21] <fenn> pid with a large D term maybe
[17:22:43] <fenn> or.. something
[17:23:01] <tomp> i dont know where he'll get the equivalent of a moog or pegasus valve for air ( bidirectional and proportionate )
[17:23:11] <fenn> thought he had the valves already
[17:23:17] <tomp> didnt describe
[17:23:52] <fenn> can you use a regulator as a proportional valve?
[17:24:50] <tomp> yes, a motorized requlator, but it isnt bi-directional and would be crazy slow response ( beer would go flat if it poured one )
[17:25:09] <fenn> i think you can get/make high flow regulators
[17:25:35] <tomp> all is possible, he's a bit low budget iirc
[17:25:40] <fenn> like on a paintball gun; they seem simple
[17:27:22] <tomp> could be, he needs that smooth transition from light to strong still, and he needs it bidirectional somehow
[17:27:33] <fenn> btw how hard would it be to convert a pneumatic slide to hydraulics?
[17:27:48] <tomp> i think just seals
[17:27:59] <fenn> what if you use water
[17:28:09] <fenn> there's tons of water in air lines already
[17:28:30] <tomp> or, hydraulic cylinders might be cheaper than air, and readily found used/free
[17:30:32] <tomp> and hydraulic cnc is really used in industry ( and pneumatic cnc is not )
[17:30:41] <fenn> of course
[17:30:57] <fenn> not with cylinders tho
[17:32:14] <iman> thans again guys. it seemd to work fine after the adjustments.
[17:32:52] <floppy1234> tomp sorry, i dont understand.. you must know i cant speak english very well
[17:33:21] <tomp> no worries. i suggest you make simple tests first
[17:33:29] <floppy1234> tomp you mean i should control the valve?
[17:33:36] <floppy1234> and not the speed?
[17:33:47] <tomp> you might try to make the valve move by itself, and try to make it move smoothly
[17:33:57] <floppy1234> so first try a open loop`?
[17:34:03] <tomp> no motion, no speed
[17:34:03] <fenn> yes
[17:34:07] <tomp> yes open loop
[17:34:15] <tomp> and judge it by the sound
[17:34:42] <tomp> if you can make it hiss and slowly change to a roar, then you have smooth changes.
[17:35:05] <tomp> if you can make it change smoothly, then you can make smooth motion afterwards
[17:35:10] <tomp> capice?
[17:35:20] <fenn> that's not even english :)
[17:35:38] <tomp> does that make sense?
[17:35:55] <floppy1234> tomp moment
[17:36:20] <fenn> verstehen
[17:36:31] <fenn> * fenn pats his google
[17:36:41] <floppy1234> lol
[17:37:09] <floppy1234> tomp well okay
[17:37:36] <floppy1234> ive build a voltage controlled current source and can control the valve with a voltage source
[17:38:03] <floppy1234> can i control the parallelport pwm directly?
[17:38:21] <floppy1234> so that i can control exactly from 0 to 100% duty cycle?
[17:38:30] <fenn> using halcmd you can set various hal signals/parameters
[17:38:42] <floppy1234> well... ok
[17:38:49] <tomp> ah! the flow is proportional to a voltage? for direct control, with pwm, you may need a circuit to convert the D% to Voltage
[17:38:49] <fenn> setp is the command i think..
[17:39:02] <floppy1234> must i start from console or from axis?
[17:39:04] <fenn> console
[17:39:11] <floppy1234> tomp yes... ive done this in hardware
[17:39:12] <fenn> type halcmd -fk
[17:39:34] <floppy1234> tomp ive build a lowpass ;)
[17:39:52] <floppy1234> this convert dutycycle to voltage
[17:40:30] <fenn> ah i was wrong, you want to use 'sets' to set a signal's value
[17:40:46] <floppy1234> kk
[17:41:01] <floppy1234> fenn must emc run?
[17:41:11] <fenn> uh, ..
[17:41:14] <floppy1234> ok ok
[17:41:18] <floppy1234> i try tomorrow
[17:41:18] <floppy1234> ;)
[17:41:20] <fenn> sometimes i have trouble running just hal by itself
[17:41:25] <tomp> you might begin with a voltmeter/halmeter and see that you can vary the control signal smoothly. this is before connecting the valve to air. (lowpass ok )
[17:41:46] <floppy1234> ok
[17:42:04] <floppy1234> my multimeter can mensure also a dutycycle
[17:43:01] <floppy1234> is there a way to invert a pwm signal?
[17:43:13] <fenn> there should be a parameter
[17:43:17] <floppy1234> i want to drive with exhaust air and not with incoming air
[17:43:17] <floppy1234> ;)
[17:43:25] <fenn> on the parport component
[17:43:34] <fenn> -NOT or something like that
[17:43:43] <floppy1234> oka
[17:43:44] <floppy1234> y
[17:43:46] <floppy1234> i go to read ;)
[17:43:53] <floppy1234> thank you all ;)
[17:44:36] <fenn> (BIT) parport.<portnum>.pin-<pinnum>-out-invert - Inverts an output pin.
[17:44:54] <floppy1234> thank you
[17:45:12] <floppy1234> fenn and this also works for pwm?
[17:45:22] <fenn> if you are using a parport to output the pwm
[17:46:36] <SWPadnos> you could always make the PWM scale value negative
[17:49:44] <floppy1234> okay
[17:49:54] <floppy1234> hmmm
[17:50:55] <SWPadnos> that may not work for you though - it's not exactly the same as inverting the output bit
[17:51:39] <tomp> floppy1234: I'd be interested in your proportionate valve if you make it public. I'd like a proportionate flow valve for EDM ( oil or water ), and would make it's loop controlled by the process.
[17:52:33] <floppy1234> please wait
[17:52:39] <tomp> the parport.<portnum>.pin-<pinnum>-out-invert pin acts like 100-D%
[17:52:42] <tomp> ok
[17:52:46] <floppy1234> i am eating ;)
[17:52:56] <floppy1234> i can give you all data
[17:52:58] <floppy1234> in 10 min
[17:58:02] <dmessier> has any one managed to get APT360 up and making good g-code??
[17:59:11] <fenn> i think tom has
[18:00:19] <dmessier> cool ... and the visual APT stuff>>
[18:01:03] <fenn> dunno, i stopped following the development several months ago, it was coming along nicely
[18:02:00] <fenn> oops i forgot i had the documentation on my webserver
[18:02:33] <DanielFalck> dmessier: I have it working for me (apt360)
[18:02:44] <dmessier> i havent managed to find time to install it anywhere.. still have a 486 sx with the original apt360 and post processor development package
[18:03:13] <dmessier> so how is your apt coming along??
[18:03:38] <fenn> it was real easy to install/run
[18:03:53] <DanielFalck> well, vapt works pretty well. there's an apt editor page, g-code editor, and an opengl view window
[18:04:17] <DanielFalck> the postprocessor can be modified pretty well
[18:04:28] <dmessier> 5 axes??
[18:04:55] <DanielFalck> I haven't tried that, since I just have a 4th axis on my bridgeport
[18:05:26] <DanielFalck> I know that one of the developers (crotchetguy) has been using the 4th axis stuff at work
[18:05:36] <DanielFalck> so, maybe on the 5 axes
[18:05:55] <DanielFalck> come on over to #cam and chat with us a bit
[18:06:24] <dmessier> the apt will do it im sure.. its whether the post can handle the inverse time and stuff
[18:06:31] <DanielFalck> true
[18:07:26] <floppy1234> tomp
[18:07:35] <tomp> hello
[18:07:45] <floppy1234> here are the circuit
[18:08:12] <floppy1234> http://www.rsp-design.de/plotter/PCB_vccs3geht.pdf
[18:09:42] <fenn> why do you need it to be voltage-controlled?
[18:10:14] <fenn> i would just feed pwm from the parport to the mosfet
[18:10:28] <fenn> through a suitable transistor, opto's, etc
[18:10:46] <floppy1234> fenn then the valve vibrate
[18:10:59] <fenn> with 20khz pwm?
[18:11:01] <floppy1234> yes
[18:12:55] <tomp> floppy1234: maybe this is of interest i did something similar to a proportionate control , just in hal a picture http://imagebin.org/9576 the gui http://pastebin.ca/637227 the hal 'wiring' http://pastebin.ca/637225
[18:14:21] <floppy1234> mkay...
[18:14:28] <floppy1234> i think i must learn hal :p
[18:15:52] <tomp> floppy1234: i got the circuit. nice pdf, thank you.
[18:15:54] <tomp> you may need to be able to give a bit negative value to the loop for controlling position. this may involve using a bi-directional valve that is proportional, or feeding a proportional air pressure to a bidirectional valve.
[18:16:15] <fenn> * fenn shudders
[18:17:23] <tomp> shudder?
[18:17:57] <floppy1234> ok
[18:17:59] <fenn> good luck controlling anything with proportional air pressure
[18:18:06] <floppy1234> thanks
[18:19:29] <dmessier> you need to contronn the exhaust too..
[18:19:43] <floppy1234> yes
[18:19:48] <floppy1234> we will do so
[18:20:17] <tomp> tell us about how you picture using the exhaust to drive it.
[18:22:37] <floppy1234> i will opeb both proportional vavles and then close one of them a little bit
[18:23:10] <tomp> what is the position feedback?
[18:24:28] <floppy1234> an encoder
[18:24:32] <floppy1234> 5┬Ám
[18:24:32] <floppy1234> ;)
[18:25:22] <tomp> ah, do 2 valves remove the need for a single bidirectional valve ? ( the difference is what drives position ) or are you speaking of dampening when you say 'close one a little bit' ?
[18:27:37] <floppy1234> i have 2 valve, one for each direction
[18:27:42] <tomp> ok
[18:28:03] <tomp> and is the motion element a pneumatic cyclinder?
[18:29:02] <floppy1234> yes
[18:29:53] <tomp> and the application? is it rough or coarse positioning? quick or slow?
[18:29:53] <floppy1234> http://www.gas-automation.de/alt/deutsch/pdf/deutsch/LAD.pdf
[18:30:03] <floppy1234> here... this is the specification
[18:30:11] <floppy1234> on the last page is the functional image
[18:30:45] <tomp> ah, i've seen similar Festo , nice
[18:30:50] <floppy1234> yes
[18:30:55] <floppy1234> bosch rexroth ;)
[18:31:30] <tomp> yes, you are doing very interesting work. this unit is well suited for nc work
[18:32:13] <floppy1234> yes
[18:33:26] <fenn> so these are rotary pneumatic motors?
[18:33:49] <fenn> oops you just answered that
[18:34:29] <floppy1234> fenn no... linear zylinders
[18:35:17] <tomp> i built a component to change the voltage output from linear to a curve, so the accelleration changed along an 'S" .It is untested, but it's purpose was to get better slow speed control, and coarser but faster high end speed. http://pastebin.ca/637266
[18:35:30] <fenn> i was confused because they have a toothed belt inside
[18:35:59] <tomp> the belt moves a rotary encoder,i guess
[18:36:15] <floppy1234> no
[18:36:25] <floppy1234> the belt moves a slider outside ;)
[18:36:59] <tomp> yes, i see the diagram
[18:39:07] <floppy1234> okay
[18:45:18] <tomp> floppy1234: in that diagram, a single bi-directional valve would use a single output from the control... might be simpler for you.
[18:45:32] <floppy1234> uh
[18:45:44] <floppy1234> the valves are integrated
[18:47:40] <tomp> oh, nevermind ;)
[18:48:51] <tomp> hmm, change your electronics to output 2 complimentary signals, ( to the 2 valves) and just use a single control signal ( from emc )
[18:49:05] <floppy1234> ok
[18:49:06] <floppy1234> ;)
[18:49:41] <tomp> best if luck, keep us posted
[18:49:49] <floppy1234> yes i do
[19:40:38] <Skullworks-PGAB> Pluto_step - is that able to read encoders - or did the step gen code fill up the FPGA?
[19:44:11] <Jymmm> Yo ho ho...
[19:50:10] <floppy12> re
[19:51:20] <Jymmm> you lost your other half... 34
[19:54:01] <Jymmm> Is there a more common name for frame buffer (vga=791) graphics? All I seem to find is lilo/grub config stuff, I wanted to see what/if any applicatoins are using it.
[19:55:06] <floppy12> lo jepler
[19:55:09] <floppy12> Jymmm
[19:55:10] <floppy12> ;)
[19:55:20] <Skullworks-PGAB> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19996036/?GT1=10150 - ok this is just...
[20:03:07] <Jymmm> Skullworks-PGAB: gone on, say it...
[20:03:18] <Jymmm> s/gone/go/
[20:05:03] <Jymmm> Somehow, I think the numbers of patients he'll have will lower slightly
[20:06:24] <Skullworks-PGAB> he won against an insurance company - the guy should buy lotto tickets - he's lucky
[20:10:54] <fenn> pff no pics? what is this internets coming to
[20:11:30] <Jymmm> It's the did something while she was under a general, that really bugs me
[20:13:30] <Jymmm> What would have been really fair, is if she was permitted to do whatever she wanted while the DDS was put under.
[20:13:43] <Jymmm> pay back is a bitch!
[20:14:44] <fenn> ya they should have ordered him to get boar tusks implanted
[20:15:05] <Jymmm> oh no, not the same thing as he did.... ANYTHING she wanted to do.
[20:15:37] <Jymmm> She had ZERO control of what was done to her, he should be put into the same position.
[20:19:15] <fenn> woah.. pneumatic ribbon cable http://www.pneumaticsonline.com/images/clippardnp5.jpg
[20:20:20] <Jymmm> doesn't even follow the color code
[20:20:36] <Jymmm> no violet
[20:21:16] <Jymmm> totally useless with no violet fenn
[20:21:37] <fenn> will you ever forgive me?
[20:22:07] <Jymmm> fenn: Have I ever forgiven you so far?
[20:22:34] <fenn> dunno have you?
[20:22:55] <Jymmm> fenn: Well, um, no. And I aint changing now! =)
[20:23:22] <Jymmm> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
[20:24:30] <Jymmm> Though, the terminators do seem kinda cool, I wonder if they work well.
[20:24:33] <fenn> May 25 23:08:06 fenn my main two sins being, well, not being forgiven for original sin, and not wanting to be forgiven
[20:25:44] <fenn> those little square things are solenoid valves
[20:25:47] <Jymmm> fenn: (If you actually wanted to be forgiven) If you wanted *MY* forgiveness, you have some serious issues =)
[20:26:58] <Jymmm> ah, I was talning mostly about terminating the ribbon cable itself, nice good seal, easy to terminate/replace, etc.
[20:27:34] <fenn> i think the idea is that the tubes go to something
[20:27:43] <fenn> otherwise you can just stick something round in them i guess
[20:28:18] <fenn> i mean you arent going to string devices on it like a bus
[20:28:34] <Jymmm> I've never touched Hydrolic/phumatic logic controls
[20:32:06] <Jymmm> I have an al block I need to shave off maybe 0.005 - 0.015" and square up a bit, but don't have a mill. Any suggestions?
[20:33:51] <fenn> wow
[20:33:54] <fenn> Flat armature valves have a very low- mass armature, enabling switching times in the microsecond (ms) range.
[20:34:04] <fenn> that's gotta be a typo
[20:35:54] <Jymmm> yeah, since microsecond is abbr uS
[21:19:40] <jepler> Skullworks-PGAB: no encoders on pluto-step, just 4 step generators and genearal-purpose I/O
[21:25:07] <jepler> Skullworks-PGAB: if I had extra chip resources, I'd use them to increase the # of bits in step velocity, it's still too coarse
[21:41:22] <Jymmm> is ther another common name for 123 blocks?
[21:41:42] <Skullworks-PGAB> jepler: would a 3 step gen version allow for greater bit resolution?
[21:42:18] <jepler> Skullworks-PGAB: yes quite probably
[21:42:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> 25-50-75 - if your wanting a metric version
[21:43:12] <jepler> Skullworks-PGAB: a number of people have suggested 3 stepgen + 1 pwm + 1 encoder and I will get around to putting that combination together someday soon
[21:43:37] <Skullworks-PGAB> would it be a nighmare to parallel dual Plutos - say at 378 and 278 ?
[21:44:40] <jepler> more tedious than a nightmare, you'd have to change the driver to pass the port number around everywhere instead of having it be a global
[21:44:53] <jepler> 1 pluto-step + 1 pluto-servo should work today, though
[21:45:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> hmm
[21:46:48] <Skullworks-PGAB> that 3 stepgen / 1 pwm & encoder would be good - 3 steper axis and a servo spindle
[21:47:53] <jepler> exactly
[21:51:00] <Skullworks-PGAB> I was thinking about the 9 axis and its use for a dual turret lathe
[21:51:20] <Skullworks-PGAB> then I found the big problem
[21:51:46] <Skullworks-PGAB> no way to use 2 tool offsets at the same time
[21:51:53] <jepler> no tool offsets on UVW at all
[21:52:24] <jepler> no idea of a distinct tool for the second cartesian axis group
[21:52:54] <Skullworks-PGAB> but - seeing how popular dual turret lathes are, I don't think anyone will miss out.
[21:57:44] <jepler> but before buying 2 or more pluto-p boards, consider a mesa -- more flexibility once jmk finishes the new driver, faster I/O time, and not much more cost than 2 pluto-p boards.
[21:58:24] <Skullworks-PGAB> true - pluse the cost of the second para port ard
[21:58:58] <Skullworks-PGAB> //me is juggling the kyb
[23:05:25] <floppy12> hmmm
[23:05:36] <floppy12> someone allright in here?
[23:13:29] <fenn> vaguely
[23:24:25] <Jymmm> blah
[23:28:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> its raining. :)
[23:30:09] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[23:30:35] <floppy12> reh
[23:30:46] <floppy12> so....
[23:30:50] <toast> toast is now known as toastydeath
[23:31:17] <floppy12> i understand that i can start a pwm channel and link a value and then link the chan to a pin
[23:31:28] <floppy12> but where is the direction controlled?
[23:31:31] <floppy12> in HAL
[23:32:49] <Skullworks-PGAB> are you using the full EMC or just Hal
[23:33:09] <floppy12> full EMC
[23:33:22] <floppy12> its the Etch-Servo config
[23:33:43] <Skullworks-PGAB> direction would be done in the Trajectory part of interp
[23:33:55] <floppy12> oh...
[23:33:58] <Skullworks-PGAB> Or so it would seem to me
[23:34:00] <floppy12> i understand nothing
[23:34:04] <floppy12> :p
[23:34:22] <floppy12> Skullworks-PGAB is there a way to do this:
[23:34:41] <Skullworks-PGAB> yeah, well I haven't been under the hood (reading source code either)
[23:35:16] <Skullworks-PGAB> a way to do... what
[23:35:18] <floppy12> when axis 0 should go to right, pin A should be 5V and pin B is PWM modulated (5V -> 0%)
[23:35:42] <floppy12> when axis 0 should go to left, pin B should be 5V and pin A is PWM modulated
[23:36:09] <Skullworks-PGAB> hmm that don't sound right
[23:36:39] <floppy12> now on left run pin A is high and B is low, on right run pin B is high and A is low and pin C is PWM modulated
[23:36:42] <Skullworks-PGAB> pin A be high for right - low for left - pwm = 0 for stationary
[23:37:33] <floppy12> hmmm ok... so i must do this extern
[23:37:54] <Skullworks-PGAB> one pin for direction - 1 for velocity
[23:38:02] <Skullworks-PGAB> or
[23:38:26] <jepler> if you negate pwmgen scale, it will swap the direction
[23:38:31] <floppy12> but my machine needs 1 pwm for rightrun and 1 pwm for left run
[23:38:38] <floppy12> jepler okay...
[23:38:44] <jepler> if you set the parport pin's "invert" parameter, it will swap 0V and 5V
[23:38:44] <Skullworks-PGAB> pin 1 = left and is pwm pin 2 right pwm
[23:39:05] <Skullworks-PGAB> serval logical ways
[23:39:06] <jepler> if you swap the way you hook the pins from pwmgen to the parport, you also effectively swap the direction of motion
[23:39:21] <Skullworks-PGAB> hardware will decide what is easiest
[23:39:34] <floppy12> hmmm
[23:39:36] <floppy12> i
[23:39:44] <floppy12> i think i realize it in hardware ;)
[23:40:54] <floppy12> someone in here who know something in electronic?
[23:41:56] <Skullworks-PGAB> http://www.usdigital.com/products/e7p/ - new goody - but no index :(
[23:42:25] <floppy12> can i switch the pwm with a 4066?
[23:55:22] <floppy12> http://www.rsp-design.de/plotter/EMCout.png
[23:55:25] <floppy12> thats my idee