this place is full of antique machines
sound like the shop I play at
some of them are specialised so dont fall out of use like the clock gear cutting machines
the bosses fav pinion machine is 1930's, I use the mid 50's one
* Jymmm just got back from Thomson mfg facility
as in Thomson Ball screws
they are local?
did they solve your problem?
They at least gave me an idea as to what the problem might be. They also took a look at the ballscrew and nut.
which is what I really wanted
Can't do much better than the mfg plant and defects/malfunctions
did they find anything wrong with your nut/ballscrew?
Nothing with the screw; the nut showing wear and migth be an issue with the tube clamp
The original balls were .1245, they loaded it up with .1248, still some play, and said it might go up to .1250
I'll load up the .1250 in a little bit.
where did you find an assortment of balls?
I got the balls from them, but I know a place in LA that has sample kits.
Now, I just need to find some ziplock bags!!!
they close in a little bit... I have some around here somewhere... My gf probably has some I coudl steal
I'm gonna double bag em too =)
too hard to come by
has anyone ever hand-loaded ballnuts before?
toast is now known as toastydeath
What, everyone hiding?
wheeeeeeeeee lathe moved
quick...catch it before it gets away...
lol @ LawrenceG
LawrenceG: how ya doin (watching a movie, takinf a smoke break atm)
talking to another ham on skype.... atm
now that's irony, that righ there
Hams on skype?
layers of subtle humor.
the skype is running over packet radio, right? =)
pretty bad packet loss over the 60km I am using
seems much better when I stop searching ebay!!!
LawrenceG: Now, that's pretty lame
LawrenceG: tell who you're talking to I said that as well!
* LawrenceG hiding in shame...
LawrenceG: their QTH?
anyway... headed to bed... other ham is in Port Alberni on Vancouver Island
LawrenceG: Shit, you two can talk in the local repeater if nothign else
* LawrenceG wimp... I know
LawrenceG: Hell, almost simplex
hey.. due to house reno... all vhf antennas are on the ground... could use 80mtrs though
loop is still up
LawrenceG: roll up J pole!
I am too far out of town for the rubber ducky...
LawrenceG: roll up J pole!
gawd that's lame! LOL
no wonder they keep trying to take bandplans away from us
LawrenceG: ok, enjoy... aback ot my movie...
<LawrenceG> cheers... goodnight
pew pew pew
Emco machine designs sure get copied a lot...
emco is one of the machine builders that buys the parts from chineese foundaries
and assembles them
like grizzly, msc, hf, etc
some people apply extra finishing processes, most don't
i'm not sure if emco does their own finishing or has the foundry do it
so if you see two lathes that look identical, it's because they are
oh is that why
I was just reading the stuff on www.lathes.co.uk and it seems a ton of the import lathes look just like them
most of the import lathes DO copy a pre-existing lathe
so i guess if emco has the oldest one, that's probably the original
just seem odd that they are mostly emcos
the 9x20, the Unimat stuff
like a lot of the bigger imports, the ones from the Taiwan foundaries (much better)
copy the Clausing and Leblond lathes
ah must be the desktop stuff that i look at
desktop and engine lathes
same deal, all brands come from the same two or three massive foundaries overseas
but i'm not familiar with the older stuff of some brands, when they may have been original to that brand
i.e. the particular emco lathe you are talking about
so it may not apply.
can emc handle grinders and similar equipment?
this sleep medicine is some strong stuff
more importantly, can it handle tomato milling machines? http://www.ekitchengadgets.com/lapaeltomima.html?CS_003=740477&CS_010=lapaeltomima
jepler: 450 watts just to mill tomotos?
sounds quite excessive
it's not like they're particularly hard to machine
its all about speed. Milling a tomato at 10000ipm take power.
yeh, when the users push the stuff thru the mill, rather than wait for it to work
when the feedback is based on how long the user waits, the control loop usually suffers ;)
anyone here know what the EMC plugin for eagle was called?
do you mean the pcb routing gcode generator script jepler and I wrote? http://unpy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/eagle/ulp/
yes I think so
also you may want the `traveling salesman' path optimizer: http://unpy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tsp/
I don't quite remember, was there a general solution to the traveling salesman problem that wasn't extremely math intensive?
the eagle script generates gcode that can be optimized with that, it helps a lot
this program gives a quite good solution in 10 seconds of cpu time for a reasonable size of gcode
I think the algorithm we used is guaranteed to be no worse than 2x the best possible solution
judging by eyeball, it gives quite good results
in general though, is the traveling salesman NP complete?
the problem is tsp is about visiting points, so it's not a solution for general gcode which is vectors. but pcb routing is done with all closed paths, so you can optimize the rapids by considering the cutting paths as points
hmm - vaccuming off my portables keyboard seems to have fixed it.. Time will tell. Tons of cat hair.
(unhooked of cource)
I had a cat/keyboard prolbem too recently - but it was the "cat and various keyboard parts go flying" type
she was just stepping on the keyboard, which was near the edge of the counter, when she started falling off the couter...
I can see that :)
my cats seem to have an aversion to stepping on keyboards, or rather anything lying on a desk
last time I vacummed off this keyboard - I was using the shop vac which has a bit too much vacumm.. I ended up sucking a key off the board.
quite practical actually
lerneaen_hydra: yeah that sounds very useful
cats are not as smooth as they would like you to believe.
I suppose they say the same about people not being as smart as they want you to think.
someone in here?
mcfloppy1: pretty quiet right now
anyone here remember the page that had various parts for holding onto a circuit board when milling/drilling it?
some rather nice holders
sorry..... very bad wlan
i hope it is stable now
i have a problem with emc
i want to control a servopneumatic axis
when i clic "+" the axis hop a litle bit and then emc says joint error on axis 0...
what can this be?
a "following error on joint N" means that the distance between the desired position and the feedback position is too great
hmmmm okay... can i set this distance higher?
this can either mean that the setup is completely wrong (for instance, when emc tries to command a move in one direction, the motor actually moves the other way)
or that the "PID tuning" is poor
yes, the way to increase the distance is documented in the manual. Just this once, I'll find it for you
the manual is always available from the menu at the top of the screen, assuming you're running ubuntu
i drive with pwm on parport, at the moment is one pwm signal for each axis and two direction signals. is there a way to pwm modulate each of the direction signals?
in the User Manual PDF, see section number 5.3.7 and read down to the descrition of MIN_FERROR and FERROR.
jepler yes i've the manuals
OK, the point is that you change the value of MIN_FERROR and FERROR to make emc wait longer before signalling a joint following error
"longer" in distance between desired and actual position, not "longer" in time
how can i optimize the PID?
the manual page for pwmgen (at a terminal, type "man pwmgen") describes 3 distinct modes. One of the modes is called "up/down", and may be the mode you desire.
[16:10:09] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Tuning_EMC2/HAL_PID_Loops
"Tuning is a difficult topic. Everybody has their own preferred way to do it, and each way has its good and bad points. There is usually a lot of trial and error involved. Experience and intuition both help, but both are very hard to explain to others.
I don't personally have much experience with servo systems, so I have to defer to what others have written on the subject..
can you tell me values to start?
hm I thought there was at least one other page of advice on PID tuning
the values are different for every motor / machine combination, so there is no one starting point
they depend on the power of the motor, the characteristics of the motor driver, the amount of mass moved, the amount of friction, etc. -- very individualized
so i must try
[16:14:48] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers
there's a little tuning information here
but the author has confused together what's generic pid tuning information and what's specific to ppmc driver boards
there's also this document, but some of the formulas (which were copied from wikipedia) are for a slightly different PID algorithm than emc2's: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/motion/pid_theory/index.html
so basically ignore the section "Ziegler-Nichols method"
the starting point for every machine is probably some P gain only
the table "Effects of increasing parameters" is useful when manually tuning PID, however
"[O]ne tuning method is to first set the I and D values to zero. Increase the P until the output of the loop oscillates. Then increase I until oscillation stops. Finally, increase D until the loop is acceptably quick to reach its reference. "
-- from pid theory document
jepler so, i tryed these values: "1 10 100 1000"
with 1 it dont drive... the valve gone up and down
with 10 it hops a little bit
and with 100 and more it hops exteme
with your air driven system, try to simplify things and just get smooth air output, going from a quiet hiss to a roar without any 'hops'.
No linear motion yet, just try to control the valve.
until you have smooth control over the valve, you will not get smooth control over the motion.
with your air driven system, try to simplify things and just get smooth air output, going from a quiet hiss to a roar without any 'hops'.
he keeps falling off the log ;)
with your air driven system, try to simplify things and just get smooth air output, going from a quiet hiss to a roar without any 'hops'.No linear motion yet, just try to control the valve.until you have smooth control over the valve, you will not get smooth control over the motion.
oh, both of him fell off
Hey guys. I have a bit o problem here with the gcode generated by pcb-gcode for EMC2.The errormess says: -"Error near line 16 ... bad character". Here is the gcode if someone wants to take a peek at it: http://pastebin.ca/637146
Very annoying. I would appreciate any help with this so i can do some drilling with our CNC. Doing an huge array of UV leds for a UV box and there are like 800 holes to do :-)
Very annoying. I would appreciate any help with this so i can do some drilling with our CNC.
*cough cradek jepler cough*
P might have too many trailing zeros
M06 T01 ; 0.8128
the error is on this line
";" is not a valid character in emc gcode; in some dialects it indicates a comment
I don't have any idea why the line reported is 16, since that's line 12 :(
P10 is likely to be longer than you want for a dwell: in emc the P-number is in seconds. Maybe you want P.01 for 10ms instead
ok i'll do some changes and give it a try. thanks guys!
M06 T01 ( 0.8128 ) should pass
tomp: yeah that's probably what I'd do, if I didn't get rid of the comment entirely
or, was that a misstyped L (next to ; on keyboard) ?
an attemp to do tool length offset?
no, I'm betting that's the diameter of the tool to load
not sure though
big ass drill, oh maybe mm, even then
yes, it's a mm file
yeh , led dia could be
will a new cvs up contain stgII ?
tomp: yes but I don't know what state the driver is in -- one check-in note indicates that at least index pulse is untested and may be wrong for stgII
thanks, i will try to home ;)
i am back
floppy1234: with your air driven system, try to simplify things and just get smooth air output, going from a quiet hiss to a roar without any 'hops'.No linear motion yet, just try to control the valve.until you have smooth control over the valve, you will not get smooth control over the motion.
isnt a major problem with air servos when the air expands inside the servo after you close the valve?
yep, thats why incompressable liquids are used
instead of air
i thought a good idea might be to use air for the bulk of the power but also a small intermittent duty electrical servo to correct for that kind of error
haha bump into stuff then say 'excuse me' and back off
this is just cylinders tho right?
heh not that bad hopefully
pid with a large D term maybe
i dont know where he'll get the equivalent of a moog or pegasus valve for air ( bidirectional and proportionate )
thought he had the valves already
can you use a regulator as a proportional valve?
yes, a motorized requlator, but it isnt bi-directional and would be crazy slow response ( beer would go flat if it poured one )
i think you can get/make high flow regulators
all is possible, he's a bit low budget iirc
like on a paintball gun; they seem simple
could be, he needs that smooth transition from light to strong still, and he needs it bidirectional somehow
btw how hard would it be to convert a pneumatic slide to hydraulics?
i think just seals
what if you use water
there's tons of water in air lines already
or, hydraulic cylinders might be cheaper than air, and readily found used/free
and hydraulic cnc is really used in industry ( and pneumatic cnc is not )
not with cylinders tho
thans again guys. it seemd to work fine after the adjustments.
tomp sorry, i dont understand.. you must know i cant speak english very well
no worries. i suggest you make simple tests first
tomp you mean i should control the valve?
and not the speed?
you might try to make the valve move by itself, and try to make it move smoothly
so first try a open loop`?
no motion, no speed
yes open loop
and judge it by the sound
if you can make it hiss and slowly change to a roar, then you have smooth changes.
if you can make it change smoothly, then you can make smooth motion afterwards
that's not even english :)
does that make sense?
* fenn pats his google
tomp well okay
ive build a voltage controlled current source and can control the valve with a voltage source
can i control the parallelport pwm directly?
so that i can control exactly from 0 to 100% duty cycle?
using halcmd you can set various hal signals/parameters
ah! the flow is proportional to a voltage? for direct control, with pwm, you may need a circuit to convert the D% to Voltage
setp is the command i think..
must i start from console or from axis?
tomp yes... ive done this in hardware
type halcmd -fk
tomp ive build a lowpass ;)
this convert dutycycle to voltage
ah i was wrong, you want to use 'sets' to set a signal's value
fenn must emc run?
i try tomorrow
sometimes i have trouble running just hal by itself
you might begin with a voltmeter/halmeter and see that you can vary the control signal smoothly. this is before connecting the valve to air. (lowpass ok )
my multimeter can mensure also a dutycycle
is there a way to invert a pwm signal?
there should be a parameter
i want to drive with exhaust air and not with incoming air
on the parport component
-NOT or something like that
i go to read ;)
thank you all ;)
(BIT) parport.<portnum>.pin-<pinnum>-out-invert - Inverts an output pin.
fenn and this also works for pwm?
if you are using a parport to output the pwm
you could always make the PWM scale value negative
that may not work for you though - it's not exactly the same as inverting the output bit
floppy1234: I'd be interested in your proportionate valve if you make it public. I'd like a proportionate flow valve for EDM ( oil or water ), and would make it's loop controlled by the process.
the parport.<portnum>.pin-<pinnum>-out-invert pin acts like 100-D%
i am eating ;)
i can give you all data
in 10 min
has any one managed to get APT360 up and making good g-code??
i think tom has
cool ... and the visual APT stuff>>
dunno, i stopped following the development several months ago, it was coming along nicely
oops i forgot i had the documentation on my webserver
dmessier: I have it working for me (apt360)
i havent managed to find time to install it anywhere.. still have a 486 sx with the original apt360 and post processor development package
so how is your apt coming along??
it was real easy to install/run
well, vapt works pretty well. there's an apt editor page, g-code editor, and an opengl view window
the postprocessor can be modified pretty well
I haven't tried that, since I just have a 4th axis on my bridgeport
I know that one of the developers (crotchetguy) has been using the 4th axis stuff at work
so, maybe on the 5 axes
come on over to #cam and chat with us a bit
the apt will do it im sure.. its whether the post can handle the inverse time and stuff
here are the circuit
[18:08:12] <floppy1234> http://www.rsp-design.de/plotter/PCB_vccs3geht.pdf
why do you need it to be voltage-controlled?
i would just feed pwm from the parport to the mosfet
through a suitable transistor, opto's, etc
fenn then the valve vibrate
with 20khz pwm?
floppy1234: maybe this is of interest i did something similar to a proportionate control , just in hal a picture http://imagebin.org/9576
the gui http://pastebin.ca/637227
the hal 'wiring' http://pastebin.ca/637225
i think i must learn hal :p
floppy1234: i got the circuit. nice pdf, thank you.
you may need to be able to give a bit negative value to the loop for controlling position. this may involve using a bi-directional valve that is proportional, or feeding a proportional air pressure to a bidirectional valve.
* fenn shudders
good luck controlling anything with proportional air pressure
you need to contronn the exhaust too..
we will do so
tell us about how you picture using the exhaust to drive it.
i will opeb both proportional vavles and then close one of them a little bit
what is the position feedback?
ah, do 2 valves remove the need for a single bidirectional valve ? ( the difference is what drives position ) or are you speaking of dampening when you say 'close one a little bit' ?
i have 2 valve, one for each direction
and is the motion element a pneumatic cyclinder?
and the application? is it rough or coarse positioning? quick or slow?
[18:29:53] <floppy1234> http://www.gas-automation.de/alt/deutsch/pdf/deutsch/LAD.pdf
here... this is the specification
on the last page is the functional image
ah, i've seen similar Festo , nice
bosch rexroth ;)
yes, you are doing very interesting work. this unit is well suited for nc work
so these are rotary pneumatic motors?
oops you just answered that
fenn no... linear zylinders
i built a component to change the voltage output from linear to a curve, so the accelleration changed along an 'S" .It is untested, but it's purpose was to get better slow speed control, and coarser but faster high end speed. http://pastebin.ca/637266
i was confused because they have a toothed belt inside
the belt moves a rotary encoder,i guess
the belt moves a slider outside ;)
yes, i see the diagram
floppy1234: in that diagram, a single bi-directional valve would use a single output from the control... might be simpler for you.
the valves are integrated
oh, nevermind ;)
hmm, change your electronics to output 2 complimentary signals, ( to the 2 valves) and just use a single control signal ( from emc )
best if luck, keep us posted
yes i do
Pluto_step - is that able to read encoders - or did the step gen code fill up the FPGA?
Yo ho ho...
you lost your other half... 34
Is there a more common name for frame buffer (vga=791) graphics? All I seem to find is lilo/grub config stuff, I wanted to see what/if any applicatoins are using it.
[19:55:20] <Skullworks-PGAB> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19996036/?GT1=10150
- ok this is just...
Skullworks-PGAB: gone on, say it...
Somehow, I think the numbers of patients he'll have will lower slightly
he won against an insurance company - the guy should buy lotto tickets - he's lucky
pff no pics? what is this internets coming to
It's the did something while she was under a general, that really bugs me
What would have been really fair, is if she was permitted to do whatever she wanted while the DDS was put under.
pay back is a bitch!
ya they should have ordered him to get boar tusks implanted
oh no, not the same thing as he did.... ANYTHING she wanted to do.
She had ZERO control of what was done to her, he should be put into the same position.
woah.. pneumatic ribbon cable http://www.pneumaticsonline.com/images/clippardnp5.jpg
doesn't even follow the color code
totally useless with no violet fenn
will you ever forgive me?
fenn: Have I ever forgiven you so far?
dunno have you?
fenn: Well, um, no. And I aint changing now! =)
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
Though, the terminators do seem kinda cool, I wonder if they work well.
May 25 23:08:06 fenn my main two sins being, well, not being forgiven for original sin, and not wanting to be forgiven
those little square things are solenoid valves
fenn: (If you actually wanted to be forgiven) If you wanted *MY* forgiveness, you have some serious issues =)
ah, I was talning mostly about terminating the ribbon cable itself, nice good seal, easy to terminate/replace, etc.
i think the idea is that the tubes go to something
otherwise you can just stick something round in them i guess
i mean you arent going to string devices on it like a bus
I've never touched Hydrolic/phumatic logic controls
I have an al block I need to shave off maybe 0.005 - 0.015" and square up a bit, but don't have a mill. Any suggestions?
Flat armature valves have a very low- mass armature, enabling switching times in the microsecond (ms) range.
that's gotta be a typo
yeah, since microsecond is abbr uS
Skullworks-PGAB: no encoders on pluto-step, just 4 step generators and genearal-purpose I/O
Skullworks-PGAB: if I had extra chip resources, I'd use them to increase the # of bits in step velocity, it's still too coarse
is ther another common name for 123 blocks?
jepler: would a 3 step gen version allow for greater bit resolution?
Skullworks-PGAB: yes quite probably
25-50-75 - if your wanting a metric version
Skullworks-PGAB: a number of people have suggested 3 stepgen + 1 pwm + 1 encoder and I will get around to putting that combination together someday soon
would it be a nighmare to parallel dual Plutos - say at 378 and 278 ?
more tedious than a nightmare, you'd have to change the driver to pass the port number around everywhere instead of having it be a global
1 pluto-step + 1 pluto-servo should work today, though
that 3 stepgen / 1 pwm & encoder would be good - 3 steper axis and a servo spindle
I was thinking about the 9 axis and its use for a dual turret lathe
then I found the big problem
no way to use 2 tool offsets at the same time
no tool offsets on UVW at all
no idea of a distinct tool for the second cartesian axis group
but - seeing how popular dual turret lathes are, I don't think anyone will miss out.
but before buying 2 or more pluto-p boards, consider a mesa -- more flexibility once jmk finishes the new driver, faster I/O time, and not much more cost than 2 pluto-p boards.
true - pluse the cost of the second para port ard
//me is juggling the kyb
someone allright in here?
its raining. :)
SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
toast is now known as toastydeath
i understand that i can start a pwm channel and link a value and then link the chan to a pin
but where is the direction controlled?
are you using the full EMC or just Hal
its the Etch-Servo config
direction would be done in the Trajectory part of interp
Or so it would seem to me
i understand nothing
Skullworks-PGAB is there a way to do this:
yeah, well I haven't been under the hood (reading source code either)
a way to do... what
when axis 0 should go to right, pin A should be 5V and pin B is PWM modulated (5V -> 0%)
when axis 0 should go to left, pin B should be 5V and pin A is PWM modulated
hmm that don't sound right
now on left run pin A is high and B is low, on right run pin B is high and A is low and pin C is PWM modulated
pin A be high for right - low for left - pwm = 0 for stationary
hmmm ok... so i must do this extern
one pin for direction - 1 for velocity
if you negate pwmgen scale, it will swap the direction
but my machine needs 1 pwm for rightrun and 1 pwm for left run
if you set the parport pin's "invert" parameter, it will swap 0V and 5V
pin 1 = left and is pwm pin 2 right pwm
serval logical ways
if you swap the way you hook the pins from pwmgen to the parport, you also effectively swap the direction of motion
hardware will decide what is easiest
i think i realize it in hardware ;)
someone in here who know something in electronic?
[23:41:56] <Skullworks-PGAB> http://www.usdigital.com/products/e7p/
- new goody - but no index :(
can i switch the pwm with a 4066?
[23:55:22] <floppy12> http://www.rsp-design.de/plotter/EMCout.png
thats my idee