#emc | Logs for 2007-07-13

[00:36:33] <toastydeath> why do people want to buy lathes without an idea of what they will be doing with it
[00:36:40] <toastydeath> i do not understand this phenomenon
[00:37:13] <\x90> dude
[00:37:16] <anonimasu> heh.
[00:37:21] <\x90> i wanted to build a mill before i had anything to make with out
[00:37:21] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I just got a nibbler today.. :p
[00:37:27] <anonimasu> if I want it ;)
[00:37:28] <\x90> i FOUND things to make :-p
[00:37:31] <anonimasu> and I have no idea what to do with it
[00:37:38] <toastydeath> well, this particular case
[00:37:46] <anonimasu> x/y table and a punch head.. I guess :p
[00:38:05] <toastydeath> the gentleman has a couple things he wants to build
[00:38:10] <toastydeath> and has a feeling it will require a lathe
[00:38:14] <toastydeath> but does not know which parts are going to be turned?
[00:38:24] <toastydeath> it's not a case of "tools are my hobby"
[00:39:50] <anonimasu> :/
[00:45:11] <ds2> if you need round parts, get a lathe...what more does one need to know? ;)
[00:45:43] <toastydeath> size, speeds, etc
[00:46:23] <ds2> as long as you don't care how long it takes to make it... those don't matter :P
[00:46:38] <\x90> lots of round parts can be made on a mill
[00:46:43] <toastydeath> well it kind of does if you try to spin a 20" part on a 6" swing lathe
[00:46:46] <\x90> depends on what type of round part you need
[00:47:22] <toastydeath> alternatively, if you are only making 1" parts, it makes no sense to buy a 20" swing lathe that only spins 500 rpm
[00:47:48] <ds2> just got to be creative in how you spin a 20" part in a 6" lathe ;)
[00:47:57] <ds2> chop it up and laminate!
[00:48:03] <\x90> heh
[00:48:27] <toastydeath> or you could buy the right tool in the first place instead of trying to macgyver everything!
[00:48:41] <ds2> what's the fun in that
[00:48:49] <toastydeath> i leave my macgyvering to problems that are actually interesting to work on
[00:48:49] <anonimasu> oviously you've not been #here long enough ;)
[00:48:58] <anonimasu> obviously
[00:49:06] <anonimasu> if so you would know that any tool is the right tool for the job as long as it's cheap.
[00:49:23] <toastydeath> and as long as you don't look at any other factors ever
[00:49:31] <anonimasu> yep
[00:49:33] <toastydeath> then yes!
[00:49:33] <anonimasu> that's right
[00:49:46] <anonimasu> * anonimasu dances around
[00:49:46] <anonimasu> the code works :D
[00:50:02] <toastydeath> IGNORE EVERYTHING
[00:50:05] <toastydeath> that is the policy!
[00:50:15] <ds2> wonder how many people would go for a "Beaver machining Lathe" where all your finishes look like they were done by a beaver ;)
[00:50:30] <toastydeath> Take the headstock off the lathe and turn the bed sideways!
[00:50:32] <toastydeath> now you have a 36" facing lathe!
[00:51:21] <toastydeath> Larger, i guess, if one mounts one end of the bed on the centerline of the spindle
[00:52:03] <ds2> bah just use a 20" riser block!
[00:52:14] <anonimasu> bearing murder.
[00:52:15] <anonimasu> :p
[00:52:16] <toastydeath> hang it from the ceiling!
[00:52:27] <toastydeath> machine upside down!
[00:52:44] <toastydeath> put aluminum oxide on a toothbrush and do your turning on a power drill!
[00:52:56] <toastydeath> space age technology
[00:53:02] <ds2> if micheal angelo did the sistine chapal upside down....
[00:53:09] <toastydeath> we'd have an awesome skatepark, is what
[00:53:24] <anonimasu> :p
[00:53:28] <anonimasu> *cries*
[00:53:47] <toastydeath> and probably an awful lot of injuries as a result of falling an unreasonable distance
[00:53:58] <anonimasu> night
[00:54:00] <toastydeath> night!
[01:00:27] <toastydeath> pew pew pew lasers
[01:47:00] <JymmmmEMC> Went out for chicken pizza, broke tooth on bone in the "boneless" chicken.
[01:47:46] <JymmmmEMC> Had to call owner, some of the first words out of his mouth were "I'm not paying for anything".
[01:48:26] <JymmmmEMC> Not even sympathetic, and didn't even apologize for the situation.
[01:48:33] <JymmmmEMC> PEOPLE SUCK
[01:48:52] <ds2> Your next words should be - "I would like you to meet my attorney" ;)
[01:49:24] <JymmmmEMC> I'm still considering that... I would have been happy with just paying for what the insurance doesn't cover.
[01:50:02] <JymmmmEMC> ds2: So, avoid Straw Hat Pizza on Meridian
[01:50:03] <toastydeath> except with an attourney
[01:50:05] <toastydeath> you get like
[01:50:05] <ds2> too bad it doesn't work like car insurance where the insurance company goes after them ;)
[01:50:08] <toastydeath> extra money!
[01:50:37] <JymmmmEMC> toastydeath: Actually it does, it's called "Pay and suffering" and/or "Mental Anguish"
[01:50:44] <ds2> Straw hat? so the chefs must be rea hicks/dummies?
[01:51:00] <JymmmmEMC> ds2: Heh, new owners, only 3 months.
[01:51:22] <ds2> where on meridian?
[01:51:35] <JymmmmEMC> Just north of Hamilton
[01:51:53] <JymmmmEMC> So folks, remember to keep your DDS phone number in your phone book!
[01:51:55] <ds2> this is where the wholefoods are?
[01:52:08] <JymmmmEMC> google it
[01:52:14] <ds2> <--- lazy
[01:52:20] <JymmmmEMC> ditto
[01:52:36] <ds2> Hmmm it is a chain
[01:53:06] <ds2> it is a chain that uses flash
[01:53:06] <ds2> GRRRRRR
[01:54:11] <ds2> Oh it is closer to the barnes and noble
[01:55:00] <ds2> no, n/m
[02:10:02] <David36_LA> Just to let you know. Problem I had yesterday with crashes when multiple start-stops seems to go away when I use live CD. So I switched my devel system to live CD based system
[02:10:18] <David36_LA> No probs since
[02:10:19] <cradek> excellent, I'm glad that helped
[02:10:46] <David36_LA> Now I juest need to figure out a way to strip down Ubuntu and make it lean
[02:11:02] <cradek> apt-get remove openoffice
[02:11:10] <David36_LA> thanks
[02:11:24] <cradek> how lean?
[02:11:46] <David36_LA> Embedded type of lean, say 200 MB or less
[02:11:51] <cradek> woo
[02:11:57] <David36_LA> I can start with Ubuntu server
[02:12:07] <David36_LA> and go from there
[02:12:15] <cradek> yeah, and use just the kernel and rtai packages
[02:12:53] <cradek> but I notice just the kernel modules are 50MB
[02:13:06] <David36_LA> yes but that is easy to strip down
[02:13:20] <David36_LA> just rebuild a kernel and remove unnecessary modles
[02:13:39] <David36_LA> the default includes modules for just about every card supported
[02:13:47] <cradek> yeah
[02:14:27] <David36_LA> I assume that if I stick to the same ubuntu kernel and use the .config on the live cd install I am not moving too far away from main stream EMC
[02:15:03] <David36_LA> I used to be quite far with a Puppy based distro and kernel 2.6.17 and rtai 3.5
[02:15:08] <David36_LA> nothing in common with live CD
[02:15:21] <cradek> people use lots of different systems
[02:15:27] <cradek> even I use a different (smp) kernel
[02:15:42] <cradek> but, it took a few tries to get a working one
[02:16:15] <cradek> you don't intend to use our distributed binary packages right?
[02:16:18] <David36_LA> I noticed that the live cd install also improved my latency, from around 20000 to 10000
[02:16:40] <cradek> interesting! must be a rtai version or kernel difference
[02:16:54] <David36_LA> no because I am writing a new hal driver for our board and a server to talk to a windows GUI frontend
[02:17:16] <cradek> ok then there's no need to use our kernel/rtai unless it's just easier
[02:17:30] <David36_LA> it works
[02:17:38] <David36_LA> my combo didn't work
[02:17:43] <David36_LA> ramdom memory corruption
[02:17:58] <cradek> was bigmem turned on?
[02:18:04] <David36_LA> I will stick with live CD versions from now on
[02:18:18] <David36_LA> just too many variables to deal with when developing hardware and hal driver
[02:18:23] <David36_LA> everything works now
[02:18:33] <cradek> # CONFIG_HIGHMEM4G is not set
[02:18:33] <cradek> # CONFIG_HIGHMEM64G is not set
[02:18:50] <David36_LA> not sure, I was so tired of it that I reinstalled lived CD on top
[02:18:51] <cradek> yep eliminating problems so you can concentrate on the real work is a great idea
[02:19:17] <cradek> what's your application if you don't mind?
[02:19:38] <David36_LA> When everything is done and tested I can maybe try using a more stripped down distro and watch for problems as I go along
[02:19:44] <David36_LA> too early for that
[02:20:28] <David36_LA> it is a CNC appliance based on a mini-itx board and a FPGA PCI card: atelierrobin.net
[02:21:03] <David36_LA> no hard disk, it boots linux from compac flash and runs EMC on the appliance
[02:21:41] <David36_LA> Of course the fpga PCI card can also be used in normal PCs with our hal driver
[02:21:56] <cradek> very interesting
[02:22:16] <cradek> the gcode to run is put on a card and inserted?
[02:22:32] <David36_LA> EMC is all vanilla except for a small server app that listens for PC GUI requests and talks to nml
[02:22:45] <David36_LA> yes or copied via ethernet
[02:22:52] <David36_LA> to the compac flash
[02:23:11] <cradek> that's pretty neat
[02:23:34] <David36_LA> the complete package will be quite small and no moving parts
[02:23:39] <David36_LA> no fans, no hard disk
[02:23:57] <cradek> that will save a lot of trouble for retrofits
[02:24:07] <David36_LA> the PC app is not finished byt there is a downloadable copy on our web site
[02:24:19] <David36_LA> with a gcode editor with syntax highlite
[02:24:31] <cradek> will it be gpl too?
[02:25:03] <David36_LA> not the PC GUI, the hal driver most likely so others can use it with emc
[02:25:15] <David36_LA> vanilla emc
[02:25:40] <cradek> you will sell just the board later?
[02:25:50] <David36_LA> Ithat will come first actualy
[02:26:09] <a-l-p-h-a2> a-l-p-h-a2 is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[02:26:10] <cradek> cool, can it beat the mesa prices?
[02:26:10] <David36_LA> because of delays in the mechanical parts for the complete package
[02:26:57] <cradek> oh it has real ADC too? nice.
[02:27:54] <David36_LA> not the price but the power yes since the FPGA is more than twice the size. The big difference between the mesa and our card I think will be in active development and support on our part. We intend to invest considerable time/effort in supporing this since we are targetting the windows/mac markets. Not the same as EMC/linux alone
[02:28:28] <David36_LA> in term of numbers
[02:28:44] <David36_LA> it will be running on all 3 platforms
[02:29:09] <David36_LA> the GUI is already running on Mac and PC and it is a straight compile on linux
[02:30:27] <David36_LA> I come from a unix world and prefer unix by far but I realize that most users are afraid to use EMC because of linux
[02:30:48] <David36_LA> that is the reason for the "appliance" concept
[02:30:56] <David36_LA> you don't know Linux is there
[02:31:50] <cradek> yes people really want to use windows somehow, so sticking a gui on it and hiding the real work in a black box is probably a good marketing decision
[02:32:48] <cradek> but I get nervous around linux "black boxes" because GPL requirements are tricky
[02:33:19] <David36_LA> well it is black for those who don't want to peak but it isn't black at all once you open the hood
[02:33:26] <David36_LA> same as a linksys hub
[02:33:48] <cradek> yeah if the whole OS is on a flash card in a socket, that's pretty darn open
[02:33:55] <cradek> you just have to be sure they can get all the sources
[02:34:07] <David36_LA> the linksys hub once you open the hood is a linux computer with a shell and all. same thing for ARCNC100
[02:35:01] <David36_LA> the shipped ARCNC100 is no different than what you get when you install a minimal EMC system with coolCNC
[02:35:49] <David36_LA> but for windows usersm they won't have to see this since they will use a Windows gui. They don't care what is in the box as long as it works
[02:35:53] <cradek> the price point makes this very interesting. it would be hard to put together a PC, fpga based driver card, etc for that price
[02:36:00] <David36_LA> exactly
[02:36:31] <David36_LA> we buy the mini-itx in quantity and we designed the fpga card ourself so cost is kept low
[02:36:52] <cradek> looks like a neat little pc
[02:37:26] <cradek> and sounds like you're lucky enough to have no latency problems on it, excellent
[02:37:37] <David36_LA> it is the best power/cost ratio in embedded board options
[02:38:42] <David36_LA> latency hasn;t been an issue. I tested with about 5 different mini-its boards based on VIA shipsets and latency is always quite good. also, our steps are hardware generated so the servo loop is the fastest one
[02:39:24] <cradek> I'm surprised really - I figured the small boards would have a lot of power saving stuff etc
[02:39:36] <David36_LA> the FPGA is soo big that we can actualy have a 32 bit processor on it if needed for tight realtime stuff
[02:39:39] <cradek> like laptops, which are notoriously unusable
[02:40:53] <David36_LA> no, those boards are sold alot in realtime types of systems such as audio/video streaming so they keep that in mind when designing them. All the power saving stuff is configurable in BIOS just like a normal size PC
[02:41:40] <cradek> cool, I kind of want one then (just the board)
[02:41:53] <David36_LA> mini-itx boards?
[02:41:59] <cradek> yeah
[02:42:01] <David36_LA> go to minibox.com
[02:42:05] <cradek> I'll be building a mill control soon
[02:42:24] <David36_LA> mini-box.com sorry
[02:43:14] <cradek> fanless! nice.
[02:43:28] <David36_LA> yes, I have one here
[02:43:58] <David36_LA> a 800mhz one and the latency is around 20000. I develop on a 1.2 GHZ one with latency <10000
[02:44:42] <cradek> with step generation on your fpga 800MHz is a luxuriously fast machine
[02:45:19] <David36_LA> yes
[02:45:21] <cradek> (assume you'll do hardware stepgen)
[02:45:32] <David36_LA> even the 500 mhz at $100 works
[02:45:51] <David36_LA> the mill in the video is driven with hardware step gen
[02:45:55] <David36_LA> on our web site
[02:46:17] <David36_LA> the taig mill video
[02:47:25] <cradek> if the HAL driver for your board is GPL, let's talk about getting you commit access to CVS so you can get it in there when you're ready
[02:47:55] <cradek> heck with that in EMC, you could sell the mb+fpga to the homebrew types who want to use native emc
[02:47:58] <David36_LA> sounds good
[02:48:48] <jmkasunich> hi guys
[02:48:52] <David36_LA> yes, we prefer those types since they are knowledgable
[02:48:53] <jmkasunich> interesting stuff
[02:48:55] <cradek> hi jmk
[02:48:59] <David36_LA> the guys I mean
[02:49:04] <David36_LA> phone ringing, one min
[02:53:15] <[1]a-l-p-h-a> [1]a-l-p-h-a is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[03:21:11] <David36_LA> leaving for today. good night
[03:25:29] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[03:25:47] <jepler> huh sounds interesting..
[03:26:43] <a-l-p-h-a2> a-l-p-h-a2 is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[05:26:56] <JymmmmEMC> jepler: what's that?
[06:04:43] <tomp> is this right? in tp, during a single time slice that is has goalPos.tran.x, y, z... the x y z amplifier voltages calculated for a servo system are just vectors ( signed magnitudes ) describing this immediate goal position. _During_ this very short time slice we have no checks, we 'point and shoot' ( checks occur after the time slice ends ).
[06:22:14] <[1]a-l-p-h-a> [1]a-l-p-h-a is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[07:08:02] <[1]a-l-p-h-a> [1]a-l-p-h-a is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[08:06:04] <anonimasu> morning
[08:08:19] <JymmmmEMC> yo
[08:22:14] <[1]a-l-p-h-a> [1]a-l-p-h-a is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[08:30:37] <anonimasu> what's up
[08:32:22] <sebjames> Hi anonimasu
[08:32:50] <sebjames> Building a python script to run my machine now; based on jdi.py.
[08:33:18] <sebjames> So far, it starts, and waits for the user to switch the machine on, then press a button on the machine twice to get it out of estop and into EMC ON state.
[08:33:27] <anonimasu> :)
[08:33:38] <anonimasu> I bought stuff for my machine yesterday
[08:34:28] <anonimasu> for the electronics :)
[08:34:42] <anonimasu> so I need to wire up a estop loop and stuff
[08:36:04] <sebjames> A useful feature...
[08:37:00] <sebjames> I had to use the "machine on" signal that comes back from my hardware to trigger emc's estop. Basicaly, if emc is ON and the machine is running, estop is triggered if the machine's ON signal goes off, as it does when the big red estop button is pressed.
[08:37:31] <sebjames> What machine are you setting up?
[08:38:10] <anonimasu> a mill
[08:38:20] <anonimasu> :)
[08:38:29] <anonimasu> I bought a 24V railmount supply for the plc
[08:38:33] <anonimasu> and stuff like that
[08:38:50] <sebjames> Home use or work?
[08:38:56] <anonimasu> home use
[08:39:23] <anonimasu> I need to write a realtime module to talk RS232 to it..
[08:39:30] <sebjames> Ah
[08:39:49] <anonimasu> I work with plc's and stuff :) so I have a few spares
[08:40:13] <sebjames> I did something like that a few years back - it was a rtai realtime module to talk CAN. You can find it on sourceforge - rtcan
[08:40:21] <anonimasu> ok
[08:40:31] <anonimasu> I need a can adapter for that :/
[08:40:41] <sebjames> well, yes.
[08:40:55] <anonimasu> they cost 1000$ over here..
[08:41:04] <anonimasu> unless you buy one from www.lawicel.com
[08:41:04] <sebjames> Really?
[08:41:07] <anonimasu> yeah
[08:41:14] <anonimasu> they have usb to can
[08:41:21] <anonimasu> or serial to can..
[08:41:23] <sebjames> You mean a CAN adaper esp. for the mill?
[08:41:24] <anonimasu> which are cheaper
[08:41:27] <anonimasu> yeah..
[08:41:34] <anonimasu> wel any can adapter..
[08:41:48] <sebjames> I bought a PCI dual CAN card for about 200 pounds a while back. In fact, I hardly used it. I should try to sell it.
[08:42:10] <anonimasu> wwnot bad
[08:42:23] <anonimasu> :)
[08:42:28] <sebjames> It's a Peak PCAN
[08:43:31] <anonimasu> well, the rs232->CAN I have would work too :)
[08:44:15] <anonimasu> but they are like $120
[08:45:11] <sebjames> More reasonably
[08:45:36] <anonimasu> yep
[08:45:48] <sebjames> I used CAN for that project because we needed the electrical robustness of the CAN interface
[08:45:52] <anonimasu> but as I have rs232 on the plc directly it's not a big deal..
[08:46:09] <anonimasu> yep
[08:46:13] <sebjames> It was for a 6 wheel electrically powered amoured fighting vehicle
[08:46:22] <anonimasu> :)
[08:46:35] <sebjames> Which has a Linux powered Vehicle Management Unit, incidently
[08:47:39] <anonimasu> what I work with ;)
[08:48:25] <sebjames> Ah ha
[08:48:46] <sebjames> A big employer down where you are I think?
[08:48:47] <anonimasu> or well related to..
[08:49:01] <anonimasu> we build equipment that mounts on them
[08:49:08] <sebjames> I see
[08:49:25] <anonimasu> I figured I
[08:49:52] <anonimasu> I'd build a real cabinet and run buttons through the plc..
[08:50:50] <anonimasu> I have teese CAN IO modules.. with 35 inputs
[08:50:52] <anonimasu> :)
[08:52:35] <anonimasu> heh
[08:52:42] <anonimasu> talk about being low on power..
[08:53:04] <anonimasu> the laptop power led stopped giving any indication
[08:53:07] <sebjames> A real cabinet for what?
[08:53:32] <sebjames> For your mill?
[08:53:34] <anonimasu> yeah
[08:53:44] <anonimasu> real setup I guess..
[08:53:48] <sebjames> I see. Yes. you can't beat a few real buttons
[08:54:33] <sebjames> So you plan to run the buttons into a pc i/o card then send data via serial to the PLC on the mill?
[08:54:36] <anonimasu> yeah
[08:55:31] <anonimasu> no, into a IO module..
[08:55:35] <anonimasu> can slave..
[08:55:47] <anonimasu> much cheaper then a pc io card..
[09:00:08] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: I *KNEW* you were a tree hugger! That pic just proves it now!
[09:01:05] <anonimasu> chop chop
[09:01:06] <anonimasu> lunch :p
[09:06:28] <a-l-p-h-a2> a-l-p-h-a2 is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[09:13:26] <sebjames> Now, what does the "optional stop" button do?
[09:56:36] <anonimasu> sebjames: stop the program?
[09:59:45] <sebjames> But how come it's called optional stop?
[09:59:59] <sebjames> What's in the name?
[10:00:10] <anonimasu> because it's optional
[10:00:16] <sebjames> :) Ok.
[10:00:25] <anonimasu> :p
[10:00:35] <anonimasu> optional stop stops the machine at the stop if you want to stop at optional stops..
[10:00:43] <anonimasu> hence optional ;)
[10:00:53] <sebjames> Ah - optonal stops coded into the program
[10:00:55] <sebjames> I get it
[10:02:37] <a-l-p-h-a2> a-l-p-h-a2 is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[10:04:44] <sebjames> Can I browse cvs online anywhere?
[10:04:50] <anonimasu> yes
[10:04:52] <anonimasu> www.linuxcnc.org
[10:04:57] <anonimasu> awallin wake up
[10:05:02] <anonimasu> !
[10:05:03] <anonimasu> :)
[10:05:52] <sebjames> ok - got it
[10:08:02] <anonimasu> GOOD
[10:19:40] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[11:01:15] <a-l-p-h-a2> a-l-p-h-a2 is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[11:08:45] <sebjames> Superb. I have a working python machine operation script... Now to make some plates
[11:14:02] <anonimasu> :)
[11:14:41] <anonimasu> w 12
[11:26:27] <[1]a-l-p-h-a> [1]a-l-p-h-a is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[12:24:25] <awallin> bios shows 2gb of memory (2x512 + 1x1gb), but windows xp shows only 1gb. anyone know what's going on?
[12:27:31] <skunkworks> can't say that I have run across that.. can you remove the one set - then the other and see if you get 1gb each time?
[12:28:06] <awallin> I was hoping I could avoid all that work :) It has worked fine for 2years with the 2x512mb
[12:28:15] <skunkworks> are they 2 differnt styles? pc133 vs ddr? some motherboards allow you to use both styles - just not at the same time.
[12:29:17] <awallin> they should be the same, ddr 400mhz pc3200
[12:29:20] <skunkworks> ok
[12:29:29] <skunkworks> odd
[12:29:32] <skunkworks> ;)
[12:30:24] <skunkworks> I know I have had some ddr memory just not work in some computers.. Does your motherboard accept 1gb memory in one package?
[12:31:44] <awallin> lets try that then...
[12:32:23] <skunkworks> if you never put the case back on - it is easier ;)
[12:32:48] <archivist> whats a case
[12:32:52] <skunkworks> ;)
[12:40:55] <cradek> did you ask google? I think some windowses have trouble with more than 1G
[12:42:14] <awallin> I tried a bit. It's win XP pro on a 2.4GHz celeron processor. intel D865 motherboard
[12:55:13] <skunkworks> cradek: that hasn't been a problem for a long time.
[12:55:28] <skunkworks> morning
[12:56:49] <awallin> well, it boots with the 1x1Gb
[12:57:19] <awallin> it also boots with 1x1gb + 1x512mb, but windows again only recognizes 1gb.(bios sees everything ok)
[13:13:05] <skunkworks> odd
[13:14:55] <awallin> maybe I should try to boot with a knoppix or ubuntu cd to see if this is a windows problem
[13:15:29] <skunkworks> good idea
[14:01:58] <awallin> well, with the ubuntu 6.06 disc my machine shows 2gb correctly. so this looks like a windows xp problem!?
[14:02:35] <anonimasu> agreed
[14:02:37] <anonimasu> got the latest sp?
[14:02:38] <cradek> http://www.belshe.com/2007/03/14/windows-xp-and-the-1gb-limit/
[14:04:55] <awallin> it should have the latest updates.
[14:05:05] <awallin> better check that there is lots of virtual memory
[14:09:28] <cradek> various websites report the xp ram limit is anywhere from 1G to 4G (many values in between)
[14:11:03] <skunkworks> I was just going to say that.. There is the 'limit' but we have a ton of xp machines here >1gb that show all of it. (using it is a harder question)
[14:11:58] <skunkworks> I had 1.5gb in my machine for a while..
[14:12:41] <jepler> I don't believe that blog entry
[14:12:54] <skunkworks> he sounds like a linux person.. ;)
[14:13:21] <skunkworks> did David36_LA post a link to his website?
[14:13:25] <cradek> yep pretty bogus
[14:13:32] <cradek> skunkworks: yes
[14:13:38] <skunkworks> there was some comments about a mill running.
[14:13:48] <cradek> videos or something
[14:14:26] <jepler> I think the reason awallin's machine won't see more than 1 GB of RAM is because the highest number in binary is '1'.
[14:14:43] <jepler> as you know, only binary can be stored on DRAM, due to a patent
[14:14:44] <skunkworks> mini-box.com
[14:14:50] <cradek> Microsoft tries to keep a significant amount of RAM free in case you try to run Microsoft Flight Simulator.
[14:15:04] <cradek> skunkworks: no, that's only where he gets his motherboards
[14:15:20] <skunkworks> that is what I thought - Do you have the link?
[14:15:34] <jepler> 21:20:26 <David36_LA> it is a CNC appliance based on a mini-itx board and a FPGA PCI card: atelierrobin.net
[14:15:55] <cradek> aha thanks (/lastlog http wasn't finding it)
[14:16:39] <skunkworks> ah - thank you/
[14:17:01] <skunkworks> I was searching .com, www and such not finding it ;)
[14:17:14] <jepler> /lastlog -r david36.*\.
[14:17:31] <jepler> ^^ what I used
[14:17:33] <a-l-p-h-a> hey guys
[14:17:37] <jepler> hey a-l-p-h-a
[14:17:45] <cradek> funny, that only works if he doesn't use punctuation
[14:17:47] <a-l-p-h-a> if I don't have root... can I make install to a target instead?
[14:17:58] <cradek> a-l-p-h-a: use run-in-place
[14:18:10] <cradek> (but, strictly, the answer to your question is yes)
[14:18:13] <a-l-p-h-a> cradek,? what's the syntax.
[14:18:22] <cradek> configure --enable-run-in-place
[14:18:39] <jepler> if you don't have root, you'll also be using --enable-simulator, yes?
[14:18:48] <cradek> yes
[14:19:09] <a-l-p-h-a> bash ./configure --enable-run-in-place
[14:19:09] <a-l-p-h-a> make
[14:19:16] <a-l-p-h-a> make install <-- fails.
[14:20:31] <jepler> ./configure --enable-run-in-place --enable-simulator; make
[14:20:37] <a-l-p-h-a> did that too.
[14:20:38] <jepler> then ". scripts/emc-environment"
[14:20:42] <jepler> there is no "make install" for this configuration
[14:20:55] <jepler> all the files remain in the top-level emc2 directory
[14:21:11] <a-l-p-h-a> uhmm... this is a generic compile question, not emc specific
[14:21:20] <a-l-p-h-a> I'm trying to compile nano. :)
[14:21:27] <cradek> oh for petes sake
[14:21:27] <jepler> oh -- then the answer is different
[14:21:41] <a-l-p-h-a> of all things... nano exists, just a really old version, and the sys admin is TOO busy. :(
[14:21:41] <jepler> "there is no generic answer to the question you asked, so I'll assume you are asking about emc instead"
[14:21:52] <a-l-p-h-a> jepler, my bad. :)
[14:22:12] <jepler> you can try --prefix=$HOME
[14:22:22] <jepler> ./configure --prefix=$HOME that is
[14:23:45] <a-l-p-h-a> jepler,! sweet!
[14:23:53] <skunkworks> hmm - I have actually been to his website before
[14:24:57] <jepler> (with emc specifically, --prefix=$HOME doesn't work because some stuff is placed in /etc no matter what --prefix is)
[14:49:51] <x3rox> Hello, I am searching for some documentation about how to work with emc, axis, ... I got a CNC mill which I must repair (electronics damage), then I want to start with EMC. But I would like to collect some information about how to operate it. Or can somebody answer my questions I have? Please?
[14:50:11] <alex_joni> x3rox: the best thing would be to start with the User Manual
[14:50:15] <cradek> hi, there's lots of information on linuxcnc.org and wiki.linuxcnc.org
[14:50:56] <alex_joni> and http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/
[14:51:38] <x3rox> alex_joni: Great! Is this user manual available as PDF? I prefer to print such things out and read them away from my computer, because I get a stiff neck when I read from screen...
[14:52:04] <x3rox> Oh, this was an overlap...
[14:52:21] <alex_joni> x3rox: just go to the link I pasted ;)
[14:52:44] <x3rox> Yes, I got it but I ansered too quick...
[14:53:00] <alex_joni> np
[14:53:21] <x3rox> Can you, though, anser me some questions in advance?
[14:53:34] <alex_joni> I can try
[14:54:05] <alex_joni> I'll probably stab you if they are also answered in the user manual :P
[14:54:31] <alex_joni> x3rox: just kidding..
[14:55:31] <x3rox> What I will get is an 3-axes mill. I currently have one here (borrowed) with WinPCNC as software. Works fine, but windows is not my favorite, nor paying a lot of money for it. Do you pherhaps know this software?
[14:56:02] <alex_joni> I heard of it.. never used it
[14:56:19] <x3rox> (No loss, believe me... :-/)
[14:56:25] <alex_joni> x3rox: you can download and burn a CD with emc2,
[14:56:29] <alex_joni> that one you can try even without installing
[14:56:49] <alex_joni> just plug the CD in, boot from it (wait a bit ;) and you can try it out
[14:57:21] <x3rox> I want to get the mill working first, then take a little VIA EPIA mainboard and run EMC2 there...
[14:58:05] <x3rox> ... is the VIA-CPU supported?
[14:58:18] <alex_joni> the CPU brand shouldn't matter
[14:58:30] <alex_joni> as long as it's x86
[14:58:51] <alex_joni> x3rox: there are some things that might get you into trouble though
[14:59:06] <a-l-p-h-a> anyone know of something like http://www.sftpdrive.com?
[14:59:12] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#RTAI_Latency_test
[14:59:17] <x3rox> Yes. But it's not a 100% Pentium, it lacks a few registers. Don't know how Ubuntu is compiled...
[14:59:46] <alex_joni> a-l-p-h-a: why not use samba?
[15:00:04] <alex_joni> x3rox: I know some people have been using EPIA mainboards
[15:00:19] <alex_joni> but I guess the political correct answer is that it might work :D
[15:00:40] <alex_joni> maybe you can take an emc2 Live-CD to the PC supplier, and test the Real Time there
[15:00:47] <alex_joni> then you can be sure it will work later
[15:01:13] <alex_joni> a-l-p-h-a: I use WinScp usually for transfer over ssh
[15:01:16] <alex_joni> and it's free
[15:03:53] <x3rox> alex_joni: Thank you for the links, I will read the users manual over the weekend. It will surely confuse me totally. ;-D
[15:05:48] <x3rox> I assume EMC can operate with different resolutions on all three axes? (My mill has only 1/2 resolution on Z-Axis, X+Y are equal.
[15:06:08] <x3rox> All axes have steppers)
[15:07:09] <skunkworks> yes
[15:08:54] <x3rox> Great.
[15:13:11] <x3rox> Most of the time i will use 2.5D for milling plastic enclisures, engravings, PCB's. Can I assign a tool/layer a final depth and a maximum cutting depth of one pass and pass then one vector (once) -- and then it automatically loops until the final depth is reached, or must all this be done by the GCODE generator?
[15:14:11] <x3rox> I am also unsure about how to setup milling fron a relative zero point, related to the workpiece.
[15:14:20] <ler_hydra> 'lo
[15:14:24] <ler_hydra> anybody here?
[15:14:30] <x3rox> yes.
[15:14:55] <skunkworks> x3rox: that is normally done with the gcode generator
[15:15:32] <x3rox> So I see a problem arising when I draw i.e. in AutoCAD?
[15:16:10] <x3rox> (I draw in 2D, then I want to assign each layer a final Z-depth and start milling.
[15:16:37] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek/autocad
[15:17:06] <cradek> x3rox: ^^
[15:17:18] <x3rox> cradek: I tried to understand how realize works -- I didn't understand.
[15:17:21] <ler_hydra> I seem to have a brain freeze, can't solve the simplest of problems right now, I'm trying to get the internal parport to work (it worked flawlessly before)., My situation is the following: First I had only the internal parport, with a jogbox, worked wonderfully, then I reconfigured to controll steppers using the integrated parport (no jog box), also worked fine. Now I've added a PCI parport card, PCI parport for steppers and internal for jogbox, the P
[15:17:21] <ler_hydra> CI can control the steppers just fine, but I can't seem to get the internal one to work at all
[15:17:46] <cradek> disabled in bios?
[15:17:50] <ler_hydra> halmeter shows TRUE on input pins that I've verified work in hardware
[15:18:08] <ler_hydra> I haven't touched bios since the internal one worked
[15:18:16] <cradek> x3rox: can you say where the explanation on that page needs to be improved?
[15:19:36] <skunkworks> x3rox: ace converter does multible passes.. free also.
[15:19:54] <ler_hydra> or is there some "if another parport found disbale internal" setting in some bioses?
[15:19:55] <x3rox> I drew a triangle in AutoCAD R14 (Win), then I tried to generate a gcode file from this drawing, using realize. I do not know what I did wrong, but it actually did not work.
[15:20:38] <x3rox> skunkworks: I tried ace, but this generates only an empty file, while it works fine when I run it with the testing dxf.
[15:20:52] <cradek> x3rox: did you read every word on the webpage?
[15:21:08] <x3rox> skunkworks: (at least, it wrote a lot of G-commands, if they are right, I don't know).
[15:23:17] <x3rox> cradek: I would recommend a sample-dwg and a step-by-step instruction about what to do. The description I found appears to be not sufficient for me, otherwise it would have worked. ;-D
[15:23:26] <ler_hydra> anyone have any ideas?
[15:23:27] <cradek> x3rox: virtually all the questions I get about realize come from people who did not read the instructions.
[15:23:41] <cradek> on that page, there is a step-by-step instruction.
[15:25:07] <skunkworks> x3rox: I have used the ace conveter off and on with no issues.
[15:25:45] <x3rox> skunkworks: Then I am possibly too stupid for it... :-/
[15:26:30] <skunkworks> ;)
[15:27:38] <x3rox> cradek: So I *must* draw in 3D in AutoCAD?
[15:28:09] <cradek> well you pretty much draw in 2.5d. you can draw normally and then move it down to the depth you want.
[15:29:22] <x3rox> Oh! Do I understand right that Z=0 is -- so to say -- the surface of the workpiece?
[15:29:32] <cradek> yes
[15:29:40] <cradek> that's customary in all cnc work
[15:30:02] <cradek> z -.1 is .1 inches down into the work
[15:30:21] <cradek> (inches or mm)
[15:30:22] <x3rox> Now I understand! Is it also possible to work in [mm]?
[15:31:07] <jepler> x3rox: I think you change (defun preamble) to write g21 instead of g20
[15:31:07] <cradek> yes, but realize assumes inches. You can change it by changing G20 to G21 in the realize.lsp file
[15:31:17] <x3rox> And what if I have to mill into a depth of 10mm but my tool only can cut 0.5mm in one pass? How is this done?
[15:31:30] <cradek> x3rox: that's also covered on the web page
[15:31:34] <jepler> "If you need to cut material in several Z passes, rotate AutoCAD's UCS so you can use ARRAY to copy your POLYLINE downward in Z."
[15:31:57] <cradek> "All cuts made with a particular tool are made in least-depth-first order."
[15:33:54] <x3rox> Wahhhh - that's awful! Can't realize do that by itself? If a speed can be set by placing a "vfeed: [real number]" text, why not a maximum Z-increment per pass?
[15:34:58] <cradek> it is meant to be a very straightforward way of exporting tool paths
[15:35:16] <cradek> since it is free software, you can build on it if you want to do something else
[15:35:50] <renesis> just turns acad lines/arcs into gcodes?
[15:36:29] <x3rox> The WinPCNC program allows to set a initial cutting depth, a number of repeats, and a Z-Increment of every repeat. Not very elegant, but helpful. So it mills every X/Y vector repeatedly until it has reached the final depth.
[15:36:30] <cradek> renesis: lines/polylines/circles/points
[15:36:40] <cradek> points are drill cycles
[15:36:44] <renesis> points are drills?
[15:36:46] <renesis> nice
[15:36:53] <cradek> I use mostly polylines
[15:37:26] <killar> x3rox: why is that not elegant? what is a better way (just curious)
[15:38:06] <cradek> There are many approaches - I like being able to draw the exact tool path I want
[15:38:17] <x3rox> cradek: What does »...not LWPOLYLINES...« mean?
[15:38:45] <skunkworks> x3rox: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/ace.JPG
[15:39:10] <cradek> x3rox: LWPOLYLINES are a new kind of polyline in newer autocads. You can convert between POLYLINE and LWPOLYLINE easily enough, so they are not directly supported
[15:40:23] <cradek> (my autocad is too old to have LWPOLYLINES)
[15:40:26] <x3rox> killar: think about having a lot of little elements I have to mill deep. So I have to copy each of them dozens of times? A lot of unnecessary work!
[15:40:42] <renesis> not really
[15:40:47] <renesis> ever coded cnc by hand?
[15:40:56] <x3rox> cradek: What's about R14? And are LWPOLYLINES the default, or must I force them?
[15:41:00] <renesis> or coded anything? (lots of pasting, usually)
[15:41:33] <renesis> x3rox: tried GCAM?
[15:41:35] <cradek> x3rox: I don't know what the default is, but you can see by drawing a polyline and then LISTing it
[15:41:58] <x3rox> Then I see "Polyline".
[15:42:10] <killar> oh, well the reason i asked is, when I have a single closed line that i tell the CAM software to cut, i can tell it number of repeats, and the final depth, with one single closed loop line (or non-closed i guess). I thought you meant that wasn't elegant, which I think that is fine. Drawing the same piece multiple times or tell the CAM to do it multiple times, at different depths, that would not be elegant
[15:42:43] <cradek> x3rox: ok I think that means you don't have to worry about CONVERTPOLY
[15:42:44] <renesis> its not elegant, is literal
[15:42:50] <renesis> which is nice =)
[15:43:05] <cradek> let's not argue about which approach is better - that's silly because it's a personal preference
[15:43:34] <killar> no no, i'm not trying to argue, i was just trying to understand, if there's a better way to do something, i want to know, i'm not an expert, or even an apprentice at this stuff hehe
[15:43:46] <killar> i do things one way, and was just seeing if there was a better way, that's all
[15:44:03] <renesis> text editors and calculators.
[15:44:10] <renesis> heh
[15:44:10] <killar> hehe
[15:44:31] <cradek> or teletype, depending on how old your cnc machine is
[15:44:46] <x3rox> killar: Exactly, this is my goal. I know that this polygon has to be <nnn> mm deep. It should be enough to draw it in the final wanted depth (once, = one polyline), and realize automatically repeats this polyline with increasing depth until it reaches this depth...
[15:44:49] <killar> are there punchcard driven cnc machines ehhe
[15:44:53] <renesis> we have pneumatic punch card readers at school
[15:45:17] <renesis> i guess like in the early 80s they had paper tape splicing classes
[15:45:18] <skunkworks> x3rox: ace does that..
[15:45:20] <cradek> x3rox: you could easily change REALIZE to do that if it's what you want.
[15:45:45] <cradek> (well, easily if you know any LISP)
[15:46:05] <skunkworks> you tell it final z depth and how - start hight and incruments.
[15:46:09] <renesis> ace converter and gcam will do that
[15:46:11] <killar> what cad sofeware does everyone use here?
[15:46:26] <cradek> I use autocad r12
[15:46:47] <renesis> yeah autocad is sexy, is like perfect cad app
[15:46:51] <x3rox> cradek: wouldn' that be a good enhancement for realize? Placing another text on the layer (i.e. depthpercut) and let realise do the rest? (-> Only a suggestion!)
[15:46:53] <killar> ehhe, yea
[15:47:02] <archivist> * archivist uses solidworks
[15:47:15] <x3rox> cradek: I don't know LISP.
[15:47:28] <cradek> x3rox: possibly - I would definitely consider incorporating that if someone submits a patch
[15:47:37] <skunkworks> acad 12 here mostly also.. quick and easy.
[15:47:39] <killar> cradek: you use gcam? Does that support dxf's yet? I thought it didn't, last time I tried I couldn't get it to do much of anything..
[15:48:00] <cradek> I have not tried gcam yet except for a tiny bit of playing
[15:48:31] <renesis> killar: it does gerber
[15:48:37] <killar> it supports gerber, which i've never used, and know nothing else that does
[15:48:55] <renesis> killar: im like #1 bug reporter/feature requester for GCAM =)
[15:49:01] <killar> eheh, really
[15:49:11] <killar> so you like it?
[15:49:24] <renesis> jes
[15:49:28] <killar> i thought it's main focus was circuit board stuff
[15:49:37] <x3rox> cradek: do you know LISP?
[15:49:39] <renesis> i can make tons of complaints, but its amazing how far its come
[15:49:41] <cradek> x3rox: yes
[15:50:04] <killar> well, i see the website shows parts being milled, but without DXF how are they doing it, i know you can lay things out by hand in it, but i want to use CAD software to do that, gcam is supposed to be CAM
[15:50:16] <x3rox> cradek: will it be complicated to add this looping in lisp?
[15:50:28] <renesis> killar: its CAM, just basic right now
[15:50:47] <cradek> x3rox: if you mean "would", no, it wouldn't be very complicated
[15:50:48] <renesis> killar: like, point entry is still text, no mouse picking
[15:51:15] <x3rox> cradek: you know why I ask? ;-)
[15:51:15] <killar> ya
[15:51:16] <renesis> killar: itll import RS274X gerbers into its native format, tho
[15:51:16] <anonimasu> hm
[15:51:17] <ler_hydra> cradek, sorry to be persistant, but did anything come to mind re the integrated parport issue?
[15:51:32] <renesis> killar: which is pretty sexy, there are no other free apps that will
[15:51:32] <anonimasu> mastercam/visualmill/random cam program with sane post works..
[15:51:46] <cradek> x3rox: because you're going to learn enough LISP to do it, and then contribute your changes?
[15:51:49] <renesis> eagle will go directly to gcode, but not from gerbers to gcode
[15:52:40] <renesis> killar: make a forum post, about the DXF
[15:52:43] <x3rox> cradek: Actually I would prefer if one who knows his code and already knows LISP, does the changes?
[15:52:56] <cradek> ler_hydra: only the bios check. what troubleshooting have you done?
[15:52:58] <renesis> killar: its just one dev, and hes busy at work alot
[15:53:16] <killar> yea i know, i have my own programs i use, so i'm not really waiting for it to do anything
[15:53:38] <renesis> like, it has an outside cutter diameter compensation bug
[15:53:48] <renesis> it currently eats corners
[15:53:56] <killar> hehe
[15:54:11] <ler_hydra> cradek, well, not any as I'm rather stumped
[15:54:13] <renesis> besides that, its hella useful, has a final part render mode
[15:54:16] <ler_hydra> what would the bios thing be?
[15:54:19] <cradek> x3rox: of course you'd rather I'd do it, but I'm not interested in doing it for you right now. but, since it's free software, you still have the power to do it yourself or get someone else to do it.
[15:54:20] <renesis> needs finish pass options for pocketing
[15:54:43] <killar> yea, i need to add finish pass in my code
[15:55:12] <cradek> ler_hydra: it would say "onboard parallel port" and probably have a mode you could set, one of them might be disabled
[15:55:31] <ler_hydra> oh, which mode is optimal for input?
[15:55:36] <x3rox> cradek: I am not talkong about "now". I must (first) get the mill repaired, then I must get EMC running, then I must get familiar with EMC,... so I am actually talking about 1-2 months?
[15:55:49] <cradek> bidirectional I think
[15:55:50] <ler_hydra> epp/ecp/bi-directional/other?
[15:55:53] <renesis> cradek: link to acad converter app? i missed it
[15:55:53] <ler_hydra> ah, ok
[15:55:59] <ler_hydra> I'll test that
[15:55:58] <ler_hydra> brb
[15:56:12] <cradek> renesis: http://timeguy.com/cradek/autocad
[15:56:22] <renesis> ty
[15:56:38] <x3rox> skunkworks: Any idea why ACE produced an empty G-Code file, while the test-dxf works fine?
[15:56:41] <cradek> x3rox: sorry for not being clear, I was being too polite, it's not a matter of time, I'm just not interested in doing it
[15:57:18] <killar> so what cool things have people made in here with their cnc machines?
[15:57:21] <x3rox> cradek: Ok, this is a clear answer. So Realize is actually of no further interest.
[15:57:38] <skunkworks> x3rox: not off the top of my head
[15:58:10] <renesis> haha @ hatch and explode for pockets
[15:58:14] <renesis> hax0rz
[15:58:32] <cradek> renesis: it works :-)
[15:58:42] <renesis> i know thats why its funny, heheh
[15:59:04] <skunkworks> have you actually opened the file it created? when it makes the file - it shows 0 in size until the directory gets refreshed.
[15:59:06] <cradek> OFFSET really does a good job at generating tool paths from polylines
[15:59:06] <x3rox> skunkworks: do you have a _working_ dwg (compatible with ACAD14) at hands which I can try?
[15:59:57] <x3rox> skunkworks: Only a few lines in a drawing and whatever has to be set.
[16:00:02] <cradek> I found autocad already had what I needed to draw tool paths - I just needed a very basic straightforward export to gcode
[16:01:07] <renesis> cradek: nice clocks
[16:01:14] <cradek> thank you
[16:01:36] <renesis> yeah offset or just sticking circles at mill points is quick, easy
[16:01:52] <renesis> is how i got all the points for my cnc classes
[16:02:13] <cradek> yeah autocad makes a lot of geometry work very easy
[16:02:25] <cradek> fillet, offset, extend, trim, wheeeee
[16:02:57] <renesis> solidworks is neat but everything is slower cuz you have to go back and like dimension everything after drawing
[16:03:15] <renesis> to much fluff for 2d based stuff
[16:03:16] <x3rox> skunkworks: Was this for me? "have you actually opened the..." You must know, I work under LINUX, ACAD is running in vmware and stores the DXF in my linux home dir. In Linux I can always read a file, even while it is being written.
[16:03:19] <cradek> I still haven't seen solidworks
[16:03:25] <renesis> omg its nice
[16:03:31] <archivist> renesis, I think 3d now
[16:03:36] <cradek> it's hugely expensive isn't it?
[16:03:41] <renesis> hell yes
[16:03:44] <archivist> cough yes
[16:03:46] <cradek> haha
[16:03:47] <ler_hydra> cradek, that didn't seem to do much, is there any chance that the internal one has changed name from 0x0378 to something else?
[16:03:51] <renesis> if i was running a business, id try and stay away
[16:03:51] <cradek> I probably won't see it then :-)
[16:03:56] <ler_hydra> solidworks is nice
[16:04:05] <cradek> ler_hydra: usually that's a bios setting too
[16:04:10] <ler_hydra> if you manage to get a hold of it
[16:04:16] <renesis> the ui takes maybe a day or two to really adjust too
[16:04:18] <renesis> and then its just fun
[16:04:24] <ler_hydra> hmm didn't see anything, only IRQ settings
[16:04:39] <ler_hydra> and ECP/EPP/bi-dir settings
[16:05:08] <cradek> ler_hydra: does hal_parport load, but not seem to be talking to it?
[16:05:32] <cradek> you may get some more information if you insmod parport_pc and check what it detects (in dmesg)
[16:05:42] <ler_hydra> well halmeter shows true for a certain input pin that I know works
[16:05:55] <archivist> lerneaen_hydra, you about? www.archivist.info/IS569/ circuit as promised
[16:05:57] <cradek> (hal_parport will not load until you unload parport_pc)
[16:06:56] <ler_hydra> archivist, sweet :)
[16:08:08] <ler_hydra> cradek, hmm, can't read 'parport_pc' no such file/dir
[16:08:08] <killar> killar is now known as klickrr
[16:08:55] <cradek> % modinfo parport_pc
[16:08:55] <cradek> filename: /lib/modules/2.6.15-28-686/kernel/drivers/parport/parport_pc.ko
[16:09:01] <x3rox> cradek: How can I mill a text with realize? (If I want to engrave some text)? Realize doesn't export text, if I read right?
[16:09:03] <cradek> (your path will be different)
[16:09:06] <cradek> insmod that file
[16:09:15] <cradek> x3rox: http://timeguy.com/cradek/truetype
[16:10:03] <x3rox> I'm taling about AutoCAD's simplex font, or something like that, inserted in the drawing.
[16:10:35] <cradek> x3rox: unfortunately I think you can't explode the simplex font into lines, and there's no other explicit support
[16:10:54] <cradek> it's possible you can "get to" the vectors somehow - if so, this would have to be added to realize
[16:11:35] <ler_hydra> http://pastebin.ca/617927
[16:11:40] <x3rox> Seems to be not trivial...
[16:12:11] <cradek> ler_hydra: [ 711.848650] parport0: PC-style at 0x378, irq 7 [PCSPP,TRISTATE,EPP]
[16:12:13] <ler_hydra> the irq10 parport appears to be the PCI oone and the IRQ7 one appears to be the internal one
[16:12:23] <cradek> looks like 0x378 is right
[16:12:34] <cradek> are you sure your hal file is right? are parport read/write added to a thread?
[16:12:41] <cradek> (for both ports)
[16:12:47] <ler_hydra> hmm afaik they are
[16:12:54] <ler_hydra> let me check...
[16:13:18] <x3rox> cradek: Now I understand why most software I saw until now takes the PLT file. There all you see is pen numbers and vectors...
[16:13:46] <cradek> yeah
[16:14:16] <cradek> but unfortunately, it's flattened so you have to do some terrible things like map colors/pens to depths
[16:14:45] <ler_hydra> http://pastebin.ca/617931 might that be part of the problem perhaps?
[16:14:44] <cradek> and you can't just look at the drawing in 3d in a natural way inside autocad
[16:14:48] <x3rox> Exactly. This is what I have to do with the borrowed mill I have here.
[16:15:17] <cradek> ler_hydra: bingo
[16:17:36] <ler_hydra> cradek, so just amke a copy fgor parport 0 too?
[16:18:03] <x3rox> cradek: But I see no real chance with realize, if it lacks "AutoCAD-Text" and does not allow multi-pass milling to a target depth. It would be such great to have all this done in ACAD ... :-(
[16:18:38] <x3rox> cradek: Does ACE support ACAD-Text?
[16:19:11] <cradek> ler_hydra: yes
[16:19:19] <cradek> x3rox: I have not used ACE as I don't have windows
[16:19:20] <ler_hydra> cradek, hmm, "insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/emc2/hal_parport.ko': -1 Device or resource busy"
[16:19:32] <cradek> yes you still have parport_pc loaded
[16:19:38] <cradek> rmmod it, or reboot
[16:19:52] <ler_hydra> ah so insmod keeps it loaded?
[16:19:56] <cradek> yes
[16:20:04] <x3rox> cradek: Autocad and no Windows... You use DOS?
[16:20:23] <cradek> I run my autocad inside qemu on FreeDOS
[16:20:30] <ler_hydra> hmm I'll reboot
[16:22:38] <x3rox> Oh! I use vmplayer+Win98 as base in my SuSE linux.
[16:25:40] <x3rox> cradek: is it possible at all to add Acad-text to realize? The lisp would have to vectorize every particular letter... Surely a horrible work?
[16:27:26] <cradek> I'm not sure - it's possible the vectors are available already (after all, they are drawn on the screen)
[16:27:42] <cradek> so I don't know offhand how hard it would be
[16:28:08] <x3rox> cradek: Actually, realize appears to be the best solution if it would get multipass milling and text-support added. It's really sad that you don't want to enhance it.
[16:28:53] <cradek> it's fortunate for you that it's free software then. you have all sorts of power to solve your problem
[16:29:21] <cradek> and, you can do it whether or not you and I agree on what features it should have
[16:30:42] <x3rox> Yes. But this has no sense. You know LISP and also your code, I would have to learn LISP and then try to understand your code. this is at least 100 times more work as you will have.
[16:31:55] <x3rox> That's what I mean.
[16:32:11] <cradek> my usual rate for technical consulting is $175/hr and I'd happily add depth increments and (at least check into) font vectorization at that rate if you like.
[16:32:56] <cradek> (the results would still need to be GPL)
[16:33:29] <cradek> or, you could find anyone else to do the work, maybe at a better price
[16:34:21] <x3rox> ... or I search for a different program which possibly would not work such elegant. :-/
[16:34:49] <cradek> sure, there might be a better suited program for your task
[16:35:17] <x3rox> :( ... wrong answer.
[16:35:28] <cradek> why is it wrong?
[16:36:24] <x3rox> Had the hope that you would like to enhance your soft on my suggestions, but I get the impression that this is not the case.
[16:37:44] <cradek> I appreciate your suggestions
[16:38:44] <cradek> back after lunch
[16:38:51] <x3rox> Just one moment...
[16:39:34] <x3rox> Is it allowed to use arrays in Z-axis (to take one element and repeat it multiple times?
[16:40:00] <cradek> yes, you have to rotate the UCS to get ARRAY to do that
[16:40:23] <cradek> (since ARRAY only knows "rows" and "columns")
[16:40:34] <x3rox> An array works, or must I explode it after drawing?
[16:40:54] <cradek> arrays aren't grouped, it's just like several COPYs, so you don't have to explode
[16:41:20] <x3rox> But blocks are not allowed. Ok. Good lunch...
[16:41:32] <x3rox> Must leave now, its evening here.
[16:41:34] <cradek> yes you'd have to explode blocks so you have polylines etc.
[16:41:41] <cradek> ok, goodnight
[16:42:10] <x3rox> And overthink my little pleases, please. ;)
[16:42:17] <x3rox> Bye!
[16:46:15] <archivist> * archivist looks at his quit message, doesnt he realise there are clock and watch people around here!
[17:14:10] <renesis> time is the worlds A axis
[17:14:30] <archivist> its my day job axis
[17:29:24] <skunkworks> he has got some odd ideas.. He want a supported standard at diy prices.
[17:29:25] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/ace.JPG
[17:29:36] <skunkworks> oops - wrong past
[17:29:37] <skunkworks> pasted
[17:29:55] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=319614&postcount=29
[17:35:03] <awallin> go preach emc for him! :)
[17:37:37] <skunkworks> he is not listening.. you need to read the whole post.
[17:47:21] <awallin> ok whatever. maybe someone should tell him to just go and buy a mori seiki if open-source is not good enough for you...
[17:47:48] <anonimasu> Yep..
[17:50:59] <renesis> im still amazed the thing moves around when i put gcode in
[17:58:05] <skunkworks> :)
[17:59:11] <skunkworks> renesis: any pictures?
[17:59:28] <renesis> of what?
[17:59:41] <skunkworks> your machine or whatever your running..
[17:59:53] <renesis> k sec i see whats already online
[18:00:43] <robin_sz> ick
[18:00:47] <robin_sz> what an idiot
[18:00:58] <renesis> http://darkertechnologies.com/image/taig_built.jpg
[18:01:03] <robin_sz> mind you, thats kinda typical for cnczone
[18:01:06] <renesis> thats when it was new and shiny
[18:01:22] <robin_sz> it seems to attract idiots by the bucketload. each one more stupid than the last
[18:02:18] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=319625&postcount=30
[18:02:39] <skunkworks> robin_sz: I am samco - if you need to call me an idiot ;)
[18:03:26] <robin_sz> ok, well, with soem exceptions :)
[18:04:06] <renesis> http://darkertechnologies.com//projects/darker_biamp/heatsink/biamp_heatsink-11.jpg
[18:04:11] <renesis> dirtier
[18:04:38] <skunkworks> renesis: nice. :)
[18:04:46] <renesis> thats stock cast from like half soda can (i didnt do it)
[18:05:01] <robin_sz> what is most amazing is that guy, NCCAM or whatever, claims to be a businessman!!!
[18:05:29] <anonimasu> oh he knows everything about lots of things..
[18:05:34] <anonimasu> and likes to point it out :)
[18:05:39] <archivist> its the thickos that make money in business
[18:05:53] <robin_sz> he wants a commercially supported, full servo system, pre-configured, no coding, full support, almost free
[18:06:04] <renesis> no gcoding?
[18:06:11] <robin_sz> config coding
[18:06:40] <renesis> he wants to spend $5k?
[18:06:46] <robin_sz> max
[18:06:58] <robin_sz> with full commercial support, 24x7
[18:07:04] <anonimasu> it's prety simple..
[18:07:05] <skunkworks> yep
[18:07:07] <anonimasu> pay someone $4k to set it up
[18:07:12] <anonimasu> spend $1k on machine
[18:07:13] <renesis> maybe a micromill
[18:07:23] <robin_sz> anonimasu, and the pro support 24x7?
[18:07:37] <anonimasu> robin_sz: I'll take he's soul as payment along the road.
[18:07:39] <bill2or3> also, they should wash my car.
[18:07:49] <anonimasu> ;)
[18:07:53] <robin_sz> I replied :)
[18:08:14] <anonimasu> heh
[18:08:35] <robin_sz> "yeah, and I want a car that must be free, do a million mile on an egg-cup of petrol, be fast, be there wheneve I need it, and a service guy mends it just _before_ it breaks down"
[18:09:20] <robin_sz> good, fast, cheap. pick any two
[18:10:02] <bill2or3> two if you're lucky.
[18:10:34] <skunkworks> robin_sz: you replied?
[18:13:11] <robin_sz> I also pointed out that EMC will do everyting in his technical spec, in his budget, but hes going to actually have to put some effort in.
[18:14:20] <anonimasu> wb
[18:14:22] <robin_sz> bah
[18:19:01] <robin_sz> how I hate CNC Zone ... flashing adverts, commercial bias etc etc
[18:19:46] <robin_sz> try saying negative things about one of their advertisers products and it just "disappears" .. or never gets through moderation
[18:19:50] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 orders some 8020 to make a coffee table.
[18:20:05] <klickrr> ahha, that would be a sweet coffee table
[18:20:48] <bill2or3> I kid.
[18:20:51] <bill2or3> but yeah, it would.
[18:21:01] <bill2or3> somehow I think my wife would disagree. hmm.
[18:21:28] <klickrr> hehe, yea, probably
[18:23:45] <renesis> make it out of CF
[18:23:48] <renesis> and strife
[18:29:10] <jepler> good lord -- 2GB is the base RAM for dell's 14" ubuntu laptop, and you can't choose less?
[18:29:46] <cradek> that does seem excessive
[18:30:19] <renesis> youd really trust dell to install your distro?
[18:30:47] <cradek> it's more about the compatible hardware and avoiding the microsoft tax I'm sure
[18:30:59] <cradek> (who cares who installs it)
[18:31:36] <jepler> I'd be likely to stick LTS on it instead of 7.04 anyway
[18:31:40] <bill2or3> 2G ran is a good base for ubuntu
[18:31:44] <jepler> but I understand I pay $50 less when I buy a system without vista
[18:31:56] <bill2or3> s/ran/ram. I started with 1g, and it wasn't enough.
[18:31:56] <renesis> neat
[18:32:16] <cradek> yay dell
[18:32:29] <jepler> huh. 512 seems like plenty for web+ooffice, 768 is what I have on the machine (laptop) where I do most of my software development
[18:32:44] <cradek> that matches my experience
[18:33:06] <anonimasu> with vista 1gb is crippling
[18:33:12] <anonimasu> on a core duo 2.
[18:33:13] <anonimasu> :p
[18:33:15] <skunkworks> my 5 year old 1.7ghz laptop runs just fine with 512mb (max it takes)
[18:33:16] <bill2or3> jepler, what distro?
[18:33:24] <jepler> bill2or3: ubuntu LTS
[18:33:38] <bill2or3> hrm, maybe you're more patient than I.
[18:33:39] <jepler> though I ditch gnome first thing
[18:33:57] <skunkworks> how hard is that to do?
[18:34:13] <skunkworks> aptget...
[18:34:15] <ds2> 1.7GHz!?!
[18:34:29] <jepler> skunkworks: yeah, I apt-get a few packages and then copy some .files
[18:34:36] <skunkworks> ah
[18:34:40] <jepler> then I get the same window manager / theme I've been using for about 8 years now
[18:34:44] <jepler> it makes me happy
[18:34:49] <skunkworks> :)
[18:35:01] <skunkworks> yep - the thing is a workhorse. no issues with it.
[19:04:04] <robin_sz> jepler, is that such a problem?
[19:04:07] <robin_sz> 2gb?
[19:04:12] <skunkworks> robin_sz: nice post
[19:04:21] <robin_sz> skunkworks, thnaks :)
[19:04:55] <robin_sz> jepler, I mean, ram is cheap these days, it probably adds $20 to the cost
[19:05:45] <jepler> robin_sz: if it's as little as $20 I wouldn't care, but I thought RAM was still around $100/GB (haven't checked lately)
[19:05:58] <martin_lundstrom> hello folks
[19:06:16] <martin_lundstrom> Dallur:Are you around?
[19:06:30] <jepler> apparently it's $850 to upgrade from 2GB to 4GB
[19:07:06] <jepler> ah, the 2GB-in-base-model is a promotion that they say is worth $150
[19:07:18] <jepler> (compared to 1GB maybe?)
[19:07:20] <jepler> * jepler shrugs
[19:07:27] <jepler> I'm not ordering a laptop today in any case
[19:07:45] <robin_sz> true laptop memeory is more than desktop memory
[19:07:57] <robin_sz> and the 4gb price is skewed
[19:08:04] <robin_sz> 2gb blocks are very expensive
[19:09:18] <robin_sz> if its a promotion, then the price will be the same as their 1gb variant, so the extra gb is free anyway
[19:09:40] <robin_sz> they often do double the memory promotions at no cost, its one of their sales things
[19:10:34] <jepler> yeah .. I hate that about companies like hp and dell -- there are different sales and promotions every day of the week
[19:13:15] <skunkworks> * skunkworks watches dell closely for deals once a week (work)
[19:14:36] <skunkworks> jeeze - this is scary http://www.edn.com/archives/1995/011995/02di4.htm#fig1
[19:15:54] <jepler> indeed
[19:16:29] <cradek> "STEPPER MOTER" (on the schematic)
[19:17:07] <cradek> many people are liking isolation
[19:17:53] <skunkworks> way overrated.. ;)
[19:17:55] <jepler> cradek: haha I hadn't noticed that
[19:18:30] <renesis> thats fucking scary
[19:18:36] <skunkworks> * skunkworks didn't write that up in 95'
[19:20:06] <JymmmmEMC> Carl Spearow
[19:20:06] <JymmmmEMC> Power Electronics
[19:20:06] <JymmmmEMC> Hardware Engineer
[19:20:06] <JymmmmEMC> Spectrum Astro Space Systems
[19:20:06] <JymmmmEMC> General Dynamics C4 Systems
[19:20:07] <JymmmmEMC> Gilbert, Ariz.
[19:20:15] <renesis> damn least draw a transformer into it and pretend its safe
[19:20:46] <renesis> jymmmmemc: its def electrically sound =)
[19:21:15] <skunkworks> no wonder why the rover crashed ;)
[19:21:48] <renesis> atmel has an app note for mains zero cross sensing with an avr
[19:22:07] <renesis> its just like megohm resistor, smaller resistor in parallel with mains
[19:22:11] <renesis> attached to an ADC
[19:23:00] <renesis> like, for big companies and crazy people cant afford a $.20 optoisolator
[19:23:30] <JymmmmEMC> quit yer bitchin... it's got a fuse =)
[19:23:54] <anonimasu> :p
[19:24:19] <JymmmmEMC> I can't see that... does that say 5 or 50 W ?
[19:24:46] <renesis> put it into a socket wired backwards, watch things pop
[19:25:19] <renesis> it doesnt matter so much without knowing the characteristics of the stepper coil
[19:25:53] <renesis> its prob 50W, its for dropping most of the voltage
[19:26:21] <renesis> it has a part number but its tiny i cant read
[19:28:03] <JymmmmEMC> 5k 5W, 1.8uF 200V, AIRPAX M82201-P2SB, 1/4A Fuse
[19:29:50] <renesis> 1.8uF is 1.47K at 60Hz
[19:30:07] <skunkworks> it is really not that important... ;)
[19:30:27] <renesis> just very unbalanced =)
[19:30:41] <skunkworks> I ment the whole deal ;)
[19:30:53] <JymmmmEMC> Ah, a pancake stepper
[19:34:28] <skunkworks> but hey - it is a phase drive.. Thats good - right? ;)
[19:34:59] <skunkworks> * skunkworks use a sycronouse motor to track the sun.
[19:35:09] <skunkworks> sycronouse?
[19:35:51] <skunkworks> synchronous
[19:36:16] <martin_lundstrom> Is there a irc channel about welding? I need to boost my HF arc starterr on my plasmacutter.
[19:36:40] <archivist> #mad-scientist ?
[19:36:45] <martin_lundstrom> lol
[19:37:11] <JymmmmEMC> #microwave-oven-welders
[19:37:26] <martin_lundstrom> :)
[19:39:19] <JymmmmEMC> Ok, the resistor is only on one half of the motor, hows is the motor not being fried by the 120v?
[19:39:54] <jepler> JymmmmEMC: the capacitor
[19:40:31] <jepler> JymmmmEMC: I can't give a proper explanation, but the capacitor both shifts the phase of the sine wave and limits the current through the winding
[19:41:00] <jepler> JymmmmEMC: that's what <renesis> was referring to when he said "1.8uF is 1.47k at 60Hz", i.e., the capacitor is kind of like a resistance of 1.47kOhms
[19:41:31] <JymmmmEMC> ah
[19:41:41] <cradek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance
[19:42:02] <cradek> err http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance#Capacitive_reactance
[19:42:32] <jepler> I've seen the same principle used to do a small LED nightlight off mains power: 120VAC, a capacitor and string of white LEDs
[19:42:52] <jepler> (that was in a nuts & volts and also sounds like a pretty bad idea to me -- they didn't even include a fuse)
[19:42:53] <JymmmmEMC> I understood the R and C were doing the phase lag, just wasn't sure why the motor wasn't getting fried.
[19:43:34] <cradek> jepler: LEDs make OK fuses
[19:43:40] <JymmmmEMC> jepler: Actually, I saw the same thing in a Coleman rechargable flashlight that plugs directly in the wall.
[19:44:08] <JymmmmEMC> uses 2 NiCad batteries
[19:45:03] <robin_sz> martin_lundstrom, whats wrong with the HF start on your plasma?
[19:45:24] <JymmmmEMC> It had a 1" sq EL light in it, so not sure if that played a part in it or not.
[19:46:18] <robin_sz> martin_lundstrom, remember the HF only has to arc between the electrode and the nozzle, nto the workpiece, so it *should* work as designed, assuming the design was correct in the firstplace
[19:47:50] <robin_sz> martin_lundstrom, if it won't arc up, check the electrode condition, maybe the hafnium core si worn out
[19:48:07] <robin_sz> martin_lundstrom, or maybe you have the air pressure turned up too high
[19:49:11] <ds2> cradek: only if you put a cover on it...the tops popping off hurts!
[19:50:18] <cradek> I'm ashamed to say I've used both 1/8W resistors and wire-wrap wire as fuses before
[19:52:57] <JymmmmEMC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(season_1) Episode 10, Frog Giggin
[19:53:08] <skunkworks> 100w light bulbs work good for testing audio amps
[19:53:47] <JymmmmEMC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(season_1)#Frog_Giggin.27
[19:53:57] <skunkworks> (in series with the power - not as speakers)
[19:54:57] <JymmmmEMC> cradek: Try that next time =)
[20:02:23] <renesis> skunkworks: neat idea
[20:03:05] <cradek> that's a good idea for anything that might have bad power supply caps
[20:03:08] <renesis> cuz right now i use a bunch of 10W 8R mexican sand resistors in series-parallel
[20:03:45] <cradek> also, watch the rectifier tube and if the plates start to get red, unplug :-)
[20:04:05] <renesis> haha
[20:04:13] <renesis> i DC tested audio tubes
[20:04:19] <archivist> hold on and watch the glass suck in
[20:04:36] <renesis> slightly red plates meant they were at testing range
[20:04:57] <renesis> in the dark they were brick red with weird purple glow
[20:05:11] <renesis> tubes are some wtf shit!
[20:05:26] <lerneaen_hydra> archivist: did you say something earlier?
[20:05:38] <lerneaen_hydra> I was a bit afk
[20:06:05] <archivist> link to www.archivist.info/IS569
[20:07:03] <lerneaen_hydra> ah sweet :)
[20:07:13] <lerneaen_hydra> saw that earlier on the other computer :)
[20:16:32] <skunkworks> is JonE the only current step generator for emc? (besides the mesa and pluto)
[20:17:54] <jepler> I don't know of any others
[20:18:20] <skunkworks> Thanks - I didn't know if there was one I had not heard of.
[20:18:34] <jepler> if you're writing a cnczone message
[20:18:39] <jepler> please don't mention pluto step
[20:18:41] <jepler> it's very far from ready
[20:19:07] <skunkworks> I did - I just said - 'in development' and I put it way down in the page ;)
[20:19:24] <jepler> OK
[20:20:06] <skunkworks> the guy wants 1mhz pulse rates..
[20:20:19] <jepler> 1MHz
[20:20:28] <jepler> right now it looks like pluto will top out at around 300kHz
[20:20:31] <jepler> for step generation
[20:20:42] <skunkworks> I saw that - same as the pico card
[20:20:54] <lerneaen_hydra> 1mhz, that's getting quite difficult
[20:20:55] <skunkworks> The mesa may do more?
[20:21:08] <lerneaen_hydra> inductances in wiring and stuff starting to get in the way, right?
[20:21:28] <cradek> if he thinks he wants 1MHz step/dir he should fix his design instead
[20:21:29] <lerneaen_hydra> why would you even need 1mhz?
[20:22:01] <jepler> I think the pico FPGA can generate faster than 300kHz at the FPGA outputs, and the 300kHz rating includes the rise and fall times added by the optoisolation
[20:22:02] <lerneaen_hydra> steppers aren't any good at high speed and servos don't need fast systems, you can get dedicated hardware for reading the encoders
[20:23:42] <skunkworks> No clue
[20:24:01] <cradek> probably some bad step-servo setup
[20:24:27] <cradek> do the step-servo geckos want one step per encoder edge or is it configurable?
[20:25:04] <jepler> there's also the step pulse length requirement from popular stepper drivers. gecko = 5uS / 200kHz; xylotex/allegro = 3uS / 333kHz
[20:25:14] <jepler> (gecko 202 that is)
[20:26:05] <cradek> someone I know is famous (?) for saying "Why do you think you want that?" in these kinds of cases
[20:26:14] <skunkworks> rigth
[20:26:18] <skunkworks> right
[20:26:39] <cradek> but, maybe this is why I don't post on cnczone
[20:27:06] <jepler> (that's "1" time plus "0" time)
[20:27:24] <lerneaen_hydra> <troll> cnczone seems to be all "use mach"</troll>
[20:28:33] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: fix your parport?
[20:28:44] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: yeah it works great now :)
[20:28:51] <lerneaen_hydra> got some videos coming up
[20:28:55] <cradek> yay
[20:43:11] <lerneaen_hydra> some images here: http://www.lerneaenhydra.net/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=32&catid=8
[20:43:20] <lerneaen_hydra> videos on their way
[20:44:48] <jepler> * jepler gets a thrill seeing axis next to a working mill
[20:44:57] <lerneaen_hydra> :)
[20:45:28] <cradek> very nice screen mount
[20:45:40] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah it's quite snazzy
[20:52:05] <cradek> what are the pendant controls?
[20:52:19] <lerneaen_hydra> jog XYZ, feedrate, spindle start/stop, program start
[20:52:34] <lerneaen_hydra> I'd like to change program start to start/feed hold
[20:52:56] <cradek> you should check out the ladder configuration Stuart and I did
[20:53:19] <lerneaen_hydra> oh you'd use ladder for that? not standard HAL?
[20:53:22] <cradek> oh wait, it's a little different from what you want
[20:53:41] <cradek> two buttons: cycle start, feed hold. cycle start runs the program, feed hold pauses, cycle start resumes
[20:54:21] <lerneaen_hydra> In my case I'd like to have one button for that functionality and have them toggle
[20:54:22] <cradek> used ladder because cycle start has to switch to auto mode, wait for auto mode to come around, then run
[20:54:34] <lerneaen_hydra> oh ok
[20:54:40] <cradek> the sequential stuff was easy in ladder, hard otherwise
[20:55:14] <cradek> I think you could do it with one button, same idea
[20:55:47] <cradek> that's a little on the minimal side for my tastes though
[20:56:09] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah I'd prefer two buttons myself
[20:56:32] <lerneaen_hydra> I might reallocate spindle start/stop to that function instead
[20:56:53] <cradek> how often do you manually start/stop the spindle?
[20:57:09] <lerneaen_hydra> right now EMC doesn't have any control over the spindle
[20:57:19] <lerneaen_hydra> it's manual ATM
[20:57:42] <cradek> I really like to have at least on/off
[20:57:57] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah that's true
[20:58:03] <cradek> then if nothing else you can walk away from a run and hear when it's done :-)
[20:58:15] <lerneaen_hydra> for the "oh crap" moments where you jackhammer stop
[20:58:15] <cradek> and, aborts like following errors stop the spindle
[20:58:19] <cradek> right, that too
[20:58:51] <cradek> oh steppers, no following errors then
[20:59:00] <robin_sz> errm
[20:59:06] <robin_sz> this is emc ...
[20:59:32] <lerneaen_hydra> I can get joint errors though, though thats when jogging manually
[20:59:48] <lerneaen_hydra> if I jog, change direction, and then change direction again while backlash comp is moving the motor
[20:59:51] <cradek> um, it's misconfigured then
[21:00:01] <cradek> yuck
[21:00:10] <lerneaen_hydra> it's hard to do, though possible
[21:00:21] <lerneaen_hydra> if you twist the jogwheel rapidly back and forth a small amount
[21:00:38] <lerneaen_hydra> not sure if that's known behavior
[21:00:47] <cradek> you should set your constraints to allow for backlash comp's worst case
[21:01:09] <cradek> (which is 1.5)
[21:01:13] <lerneaen_hydra> constraints, is that max Ferror?
[21:01:31] <cradek> no, stepgen maxvel/acc vs motion maxvel/acc
[21:01:38] <cradek> you have to allow stepgen to do 1.5x
[21:01:39] <lerneaen_hydra> oh
[21:01:49] <lerneaen_hydra> right
[21:02:07] <robin_sz> * robin_sz ponders that
[21:02:09] <cradek> if those are set right, ferror can be a few steps and it should never trigger
[21:02:43] <cradek> both motion and backlash comp are limited to certain numbers, you have to allow stepgen to do the sum of those limits
[21:03:16] <cradek> and, you have to set stepgen to what your motors can reliably do - so you have to work backwards
[21:03:31] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, exactly
[21:03:51] <lerneaen_hydra> one thing I've been thinking about, why hardcode backlash comp to 1.5X maxvel?
[21:04:05] <lerneaen_hydra> instead of it being an adjustable parameter
[21:04:33] <cradek> only parameter overload/simplicity
[21:04:50] <lerneaen_hydra> oh there's too many at the moment?
[21:04:55] <cradek> heh you don't think so?
[21:05:05] <lerneaen_hydra> not really
[21:05:07] <lerneaen_hydra> (IMO)
[21:05:34] <martin_lundstrom> Dallur: Are you awake?
[21:05:36] <robin_sz> so ... the servo motors I bought on eBay turned up :(
[21:05:40] <cradek> maybe make a feature request if you feel strongly - I have mixed feelings
[21:05:47] <cradek> robin_sz: uh-oh
[21:06:03] <robin_sz> a bit ... errm ...
[21:06:05] <lerneaen_hydra> you could do it like the ssh server, where the default values are there but commented out, to change it you need to uncomment and change the value
[21:06:08] <robin_sz> err ... big.
[21:06:26] <lerneaen_hydra> robin_sz: and since when isn't bigger better ;)
[21:06:37] <robin_sz> nice 10:1 helical gearboxes on them though
[21:06:39] <jepler> first complaint I've heard on #emc about a motor being too big
[21:06:43] <robin_sz> lerneaen_hydra, when they are too big?
[21:06:50] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: yes sensible defaults that you can override (or ignore) is a good strategy
[21:07:10] <robin_sz> jepler, 390V ac servos ...
[21:07:46] <lerneaen_hydra> I like the idea of giving the end user the ability to tinker with value that may be of practical use
[21:07:56] <robin_sz> at 15A i think ... about 500mm long, 200m square, and a fan on the back
[21:08:02] <lerneaen_hydra> not every single parameter/value, but things like this (IMO again)
[21:08:09] <robin_sz> 20hp if I remember right
[21:08:17] <lerneaen_hydra> that's rather large
[21:08:26] <lerneaen_hydra> would make a nice spindle :p
[21:08:28] <robin_sz> 2 of them fill a standard pallet
[21:08:29] <archivist> robin_sz, hehe nice and big
[21:08:35] <cradek> OTOH, you don't want to allow tinkering with things that only have one sensible value and everything else causes breakage
[21:08:47] <cradek> this may or may not be one of those things IMO
[21:08:53] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: very true
[21:08:53] <robin_sz> nicew and big yes, but a drive will cost $$$$$$$
[21:09:05] <archivist> true
[21:09:07] <cradek> bbl
[21:09:12] <lerneaen_hydra> it's a matter of judgement
[21:09:17] <lerneaen_hydra> * lerneaen_hydra shrugs
[21:09:48] <lerneaen_hydra> robin_sz: hmm, true
[21:09:53] <lerneaen_hydra> how much were the motors?
[21:12:12] <robin_sz> expensive .. £5
[21:12:59] <archivist> cheap enough to weigh in
[21:13:12] <lerneaen_hydra> robin_sz: and how much was shipping?
[21:13:24] <lerneaen_hydra> you'll probably get more by selling the copper by weight
[21:13:47] <archivist> sound to good to weigh in
[21:15:06] <robin_sz> heh
[21:15:20] <robin_sz> they have good gearboxes and encoders anyway
[21:15:37] <robin_sz> did I mention $mate bought a BeaverMill?
[21:15:44] <robin_sz> 20HP DC spindle .. yes DC
[21:15:47] <lerneaen_hydra> heh for £5... not bad at all
[21:15:54] <lerneaen_hydra> beaver mill?
[21:16:32] <robin_sz> http://www.quacky.co.uk/~robin/beaver.jpg
[21:16:39] <robin_sz> Fanuc 6M
[21:16:44] <robin_sz> and a 18 st ATC
[21:17:19] <robin_sz> very VERY solid machine ... makes a Haas look like pressed tin.
[21:17:20] <lerneaen_hydra> 18 tools not bad
[21:17:29] <robin_sz> INT40 taper
[21:17:30] <lerneaen_hydra> looks rather worn
[21:17:32] <robin_sz> or CAT40
[21:17:47] <lerneaen_hydra> how much for it?
[21:17:56] <robin_sz> £1500
[21:17:58] <lerneaen_hydra> heh
[21:18:03] <lerneaen_hydra> not bad at all
[21:18:04] <robin_sz> the spindle is the amazing thing
[21:18:04] <lerneaen_hydra> working?
[21:18:09] <robin_sz> 20HP DC
[21:18:13] <robin_sz> yes working
[21:18:20] <lerneaen_hydra> about the cost of a new manual mini mill
[21:18:24] <lerneaen_hydra> emc retrofit?
[21:18:28] <robin_sz> no
[21:18:31] <robin_sz> its fully working
[21:18:48] <lerneaen_hydra> oh so there's no point in retrofitting it?
[21:18:55] <robin_sz> the spindle does 5000 rpm
[21:19:18] <robin_sz> and has 70% of max power from 400 rpm up
[21:19:38] <robin_sz> so it will swing big face mills with ease
[21:19:52] <lerneaen_hydra> sweet! :)
[21:19:59] <robin_sz> ac spindles rarely have that much grunt at low rpm
[21:20:09] <lerneaen_hydra> brushed?
[21:20:13] <robin_sz> yeah
[21:20:27] <lerneaen_hydra> how long do they last?
[21:20:33] <lerneaen_hydra> the brushes
[21:20:34] <lerneaen_hydra> long enough?
[21:20:47] <robin_sz> no eye deer
[21:20:57] <robin_sz> presumably long enough
[21:21:27] <robin_sz> we did have one problem on the z axis
[21:21:48] <robin_sz> when fully retracted, it lifts the ceiling :)
[21:22:12] <lerneaen_hydra> heh
[21:22:23] <lerneaen_hydra> that's a bit... scary
[21:22:27] <lerneaen_hydra> at least it didn't break the floor
[21:22:38] <lerneaen_hydra> I hope you have it in a real workshop
[21:22:50] <robin_sz> indeed
[21:22:56] <lerneaen_hydra> and not say a kitchen
[21:23:07] <robin_sz> no, its in a small unit
[21:23:14] <robin_sz> 3 phase and all that
[21:23:30] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, isn't 3phase common in the UK?
[21:23:36] <robin_sz> not in homes no
[21:23:47] <lerneaen_hydra> oh
[21:23:53] <robin_sz> only in industrial premises
[21:23:54] <lerneaen_hydra> like the US I suppose
[21:24:04] <lerneaen_hydra> in sweden 3phase is delivered to every house
[21:24:10] <robin_sz> right
[21:24:13] <robin_sz> same as .fi
[21:24:24] <lerneaen_hydra> stoves/ovens/water heaters run on three phase
[21:24:36] <robin_sz> suanas ...
[21:25:02] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah :)
[21:25:19] <robin_sz> been to .fi a bit, not .se
[21:25:30] <lerneaen_hydra> oh ok
[21:25:42] <robin_sz> seen .se from aaland though
[21:25:52] <lerneaen_hydra> aaland?
[21:25:57] <robin_sz> aoland
[21:26:09] <robin_sz> depending on how you spell it?
[21:26:18] <lerneaen_hydra> oh öland?
[21:26:26] <awallin> Åland
[21:26:28] <robin_sz> yeah, htat letter
[21:26:32] <lerneaen_hydra> ah ok
[21:26:59] <robin_sz> sailed a bit up there
[21:28:11] <JymmmmEMC> Yah! WE HAVE GROUNDAGE!!!
[21:28:22] <lerneaen_hydra> haha
[21:28:44] <robin_sz> * robin_sz ownders what groundage is
[21:29:04] <JymmmmEMC> FSCK... They ran the ground wire, but never connected it to the outlets. WTF?!?!?!
[21:29:12] <ds2> hahahaahaha
[21:30:06] <JymmmmEMC> I was getting tired of zapping the shit out of myself all the time.
[21:30:10] <lerneaen_hydra> O___o okaay
[21:30:19] <robin_sz> hmmm
[21:30:59] <robin_sz> that explains things
[21:31:35] <JymmmmEMC> Why that happens w/o a ground I have no clue. I know I'm completeing the path being barefoot, but wth does the juice coming from?!
[21:31:50] <ds2> put in a GCFI?
[21:31:50] <robin_sz> I told you last week
[21:32:08] <robin_sz> many switchmodes have a resistor from half rail to ground
[21:32:15] <robin_sz> eg tvs
[21:32:19] <robin_sz> vcrs
[21:32:23] <robin_sz> computers
[21:32:37] <robin_sz> usually 500K to 5M
[21:32:40] <JymmmmEMC> what's the purpose?
[21:32:56] <robin_sz> * robin_sz shrugs
[21:33:11] <ds2> what is half rail?
[21:33:20] <robin_sz> ds2, half rectified mains
[21:33:42] <robin_sz> get a VCR, 2 core lead
[21:33:45] <robin_sz> plug it in
[21:33:57] <robin_sz> measure between aerial socket and ground
[21:34:04] <robin_sz> usually get 200+ volts
[21:34:12] <robin_sz> but via 1M or so
[21:34:24] <ds2> as in they put in a voltage divider on the output and use the dividier to feed a resistor to ground?
[21:34:31] <robin_sz> now ... touch it, no problem right?
[21:34:46] <ds2> 200V?! Hmmmm very confused
[21:34:50] <robin_sz> plug in an aerial with a grounded shield ....
[21:34:54] <JymmmmEMC> ds2: he's in UK
[21:34:59] <robin_sz> no problem right?
[21:35:02] <ds2> okay, how many wires does the UK use for the outlet?
[21:35:20] <ds2> JymmmmEMC: yes, I know but the things don't make sense
[21:35:20] <robin_sz> 3 in the outlet, but some devices dont use the earth ... doubel insulated devices
[21:35:33] <robin_sz> so ...
[21:35:45] <ds2> isn't it H-N-G?
[21:35:49] <robin_sz> say you run a VCR tape duplication facility ....
[21:36:01] <robin_sz> and you have 100 machines in a bank ...
[21:36:07] <robin_sz> and they all connect to the serial feed ...
[21:36:46] <robin_sz> and one day, someone unplugs the aerial feed from the socket ...
[21:37:05] <ds2> or you guys use H-H-G like our 240/220 circuits?
[21:37:07] <robin_sz> now, all those 1M resistors are in parallel :)
[21:37:11] <robin_sz> zap
[21:37:16] <robin_sz> no, HNG
[21:37:45] <ds2> not sure why you would 'naturally' have a half rail but *shrug*
[21:37:46] <robin_sz> N and G are mostly connected together at the incoming point
[21:37:59] <ds2> *nod* bonded at entry box
[21:38:30] <robin_sz> PME and all that
[21:38:41] <ds2> PME?
[21:38:51] <robin_sz> protective multile earth
[21:38:56] <robin_sz> multiple
[21:38:57] <ds2> ah
[21:39:14] <robin_sz> as opposed to real earth
[21:39:16] <JymmmmEMC> See, that's another thing I don't get... If NG is bonded at the box, wht do I need to provide a seperate ground to not get zapped?
[21:39:18] <robin_sz> where you bury copper rods etc
[21:39:28] <robin_sz> sigh
[21:39:47] <robin_sz> JymmmmEMC, you dont .. you COULD just bond the box to neutral and not get zapped
[21:39:52] <robin_sz> think about switching though ...
[21:40:01] <robin_sz> you yanks tend to double pole switc
[21:40:14] <ds2> thought switchers have a 1:1 in the front so it is not a shock hazard?
[21:40:25] <JymmmmEMC> robin_sz: Hey, a lil FAR EAST if ya could =)
[21:40:55] <robin_sz> and ... the earth pin in a plug disconnects last, right?
[21:40:56] <JymmmmEMC> (but I know what you're saying)
[21:41:24] <robin_sz> and you need a separate earth to do RCD with
[21:41:29] <JymmmmEMC> So, if I'm getting zapped, there is the possibilty that NG bocing aint happening at the box?
[21:41:35] <JymmmmEMC> bonding
[21:41:45] <robin_sz> you checked the earth, right?
[21:41:59] <robin_sz> as in measured the loop impedance?
[21:42:24] <ds2> another possibility is a bad N
[21:42:26] <JymmmmEMC> robin_sz: When I connected ground right now, the outlet tested good. Between N anf G measure 1ohm
[21:42:38] <robin_sz> thats good
[21:43:32] <JymmmmEMC> I have one of these I use to test outlets... http://hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/product/4440-0001
[21:45:20] <robin_sz> you should really have a proper tester for electrical work
[21:45:34] <robin_sz> there are 2 ground tests you shoudl do
[21:45:41] <robin_sz> 1) impedance
[21:46:10] <robin_sz> it needs to be low enough so that if the live wire contacts the equipment chassis, it blows the fues in the specified time
[21:46:18] <robin_sz> ie current will be high enough
[21:46:34] <robin_sz> 2) current test
[21:46:46] <robin_sz> pass 20 or 30 amps down the ground ...
[21:46:48] <JymmmmEMC> I really don't do that much elec work... other than testing/replacing outlets.
[21:47:04] <robin_sz> a good ground will easily pass 30 amps
[21:47:29] <robin_sz> a poor ground might have a good impedance, but only be connected by a hair of wire at some point ...
[21:47:39] <JymmmmEMC> I don't like that to code 14ga is "good enough" for 15A
[21:48:02] <robin_sz> ground wires are always thinner than live
[21:48:15] <JymmmmEMC> Yeah, that' s BS imo
[21:48:27] <robin_sz> rmember a live wire has to carry the rated current for hours
[21:48:50] <robin_sz> a ground has to carry more than that, but only for 20 milliseconds
[21:49:09] <JymmmmEMC> I've had to toss in a coupl 10' grounding rods before... it's a bitch when you hit rock
[21:49:24] <robin_sz> we dont have any
[21:49:31] <JymmmmEMC> no rocks?
[21:49:36] <robin_sz> grounding rods
[21:50:07] <JymmmmEMC> These were for antennas / towers
[21:50:25] <robin_sz> lightning protection?
[21:50:35] <JymmmmEMC> everything protection =)
[21:50:51] <JymmmmEMC> stray EMI/RFI, etc
[21:50:55] <robin_sz> ?
[21:51:07] <JymmmmEMC> moutain top repeater
[21:51:07] <robin_sz> wierd
[21:51:19] <JymmmmEMC> lots os TC on the mountain
[21:51:24] <JymmmmEMC> TX
[21:51:27] <robin_sz> never seen that
[21:51:50] <archivist> part of my OB truck kit is an earth rod
[21:51:52] <robin_sz> grounding rods are normally only for lightning protection
[21:51:52] <lerneaen_hydra> http://www.lerneaenhydra.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=2 <-- could someone test if the videos are acceptably fast?
[21:51:59] <lerneaen_hydra> ie. youtube or better?
[21:51:59] <JymmmmEMC> Though we never had to actuall connect power to the floresent lamps =)
[21:52:05] <robin_sz> archivist, yeahm i remmeber them
[21:52:22] <archivist> just park on it
[21:52:23] <robin_sz> archivist, we just used to park the wheel on it :)
[21:52:28] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[21:52:32] <JymmmmEMC> OB ?
[21:52:34] <robin_sz> acheived nothing of course
[21:53:04] <robin_sz> archivist, but, the regs said we had to do it, so we did
[21:53:19] <robin_sz> archivist, you do have a copy of the regs dont you. the 'red book'
[21:53:28] <archivist> no
[21:53:46] <robin_sz> ooh, you need one for your collection
[21:53:57] <lerneaen_hydra> someone?
[21:54:00] <archivist> hmm would be nice
[21:54:01] <robin_sz> BBC Engineering Safety Regs,
[21:54:03] <lerneaen_hydra> ...anyone?
[21:54:05] <robin_sz> red book,
[21:54:11] <robin_sz> you need the pre 1985 one
[21:54:19] <robin_sz> post 1985 it went a bit crap
[21:54:35] <archivist> I have some engineering docs
[21:54:42] <archivist> but not that one
[21:54:55] <JymmmmEMC> lerneaen_hydra: frame by frame
[21:55:03] <robin_sz> pre 85 ... "when working more than 8 feet above the ground, wear a harness type B or a chest hanress type C or D"
[21:55:04] <lerneaen_hydra> JymmmmEMC: oh, nasty then?
[21:55:24] <robin_sz> post 85: "when working at significant heights wear appropriate protection"
[21:55:26] <JymmmmEMC> lerneaen_hydra: playable (lets see once it's done buffering)
[21:55:34] <robin_sz> the lawyers got at it
[21:55:45] <archivist> ah
[21:56:00] <robin_sz> the pre 85 gave useful advice, the post 85 was a collection of get out clauses
[21:56:31] <archivist> got a few docs from the Greenwood theatre auction
[21:56:32] <JymmmmEMC> lerneaen_hydra: choppy
[21:56:46] <lerneaen_hydra> ok downloadable file it is then :)
[21:56:50] <lerneaen_hydra> thanks for the help
[21:56:55] <JymmmmEMC> lerneaen_hydra: np
[21:57:16] <robin_sz> archivist: email addy?
[21:57:50] <archivist> dave.thearchivist at gmail dot com
[22:00:25] <JymmmmEMC> lerneaen_hydra: Yeah, I just DL the file, definately bandwidth issue
[22:02:05] <archivist> robin_sz, http://www.archivist.info/collection/searchv8.php?searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=bbc some more to enter yet as I get around to it
[22:02:15] <JymmmmEMC> * JymmmmEMC autoConversionBot: dave.thearhcivist@gnnail.com
[22:07:23] <robin_sz> message sent
[22:08:26] <archivist> arived!!
[22:08:32] <archivist> ta
[22:08:55] <archivist> no link cameras and its MVT10
[22:09:08] <archivist> but crazy yes
[22:11:11] <robin_sz> hehe
[22:11:23] <robin_sz> just an LDK5?
[22:11:44] <robin_sz> or an LDK14 too?
[22:13:16] <archivist> two LDK5 a 4 tube EMI iirc and a Marcony mk erm something
[22:13:43] <archivist> and a few industrials
[22:15:09] <archivist> marconi and the 4 tube thing are non runners
[22:18:56] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: here's the video: http://www.lerneaenhydra.net/images/files_projects/opti_bf20/cnc2.avi (warning 20mb)
[22:25:25] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: you there?
[22:27:50] <JymmmmEMC> archivist wth is that, jsut a listing?
[22:28:20] <archivist> what?
[22:28:30] <JymmmmEMC> http://www.archivist.info/collection/searchv8.php?srcdata=title&searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=SF065
[22:28:55] <archivist> heh whats on shelf 65
[22:29:13] <JymmmmEMC> archivist wth is the DOWNLOAD link biotch! =)
[22:29:45] <JymmmmEMC> Hmmm 1936, you might want to scna something that old in
[22:30:16] <JymmmmEMC> archivist do you have a scanner?
[22:30:27] <archivist> theres 3K books to scan
[22:30:37] <JymmmmEMC> archivist well, get started!
[22:30:48] <JymmmmEMC> archivist do you have a scanner?
[22:30:50] <archivist> Ive done a few pages
[22:31:48] <archivist> 1936 is a young book
[22:32:24] <JymmmmEMC> archivist Nut sure if you're aware of this, but Acrobat has a VERY neat feature where you can scan directly to PDF. It will ask you if there are more pages, you click, it scans, and asks again. Once done you have a nice single PDF file.
[22:32:30] <JymmmmEMC> s/nut/not/
[22:32:59] <archivist> I hate pdf
[22:33:14] <JymmmmEMC> archivist Well, for books, deal with it.
[22:33:35] <archivist> no as I can seek direct to pages my way
[22:33:52] <JymmmmEMC> archivist each page as an image?
[22:33:59] <JymmmmEMC> jpg/tiff. etc ?
[22:33:59] <archivist> pdf is too dam slow
[22:34:08] <archivist> jpgs
[22:34:14] <JymmmmEMC> Ew
[22:34:38] <JymmmmEMC> at least a PDF is text searchable
[22:35:01] <JymmmmEMC> and can always outout to IMG from PDF
[22:35:53] <JymmmmEMC> at least TIFF is lossless (excluding FAX crap)
[22:36:32] <JymmmmEMC> archivist PDF is slow, but one of the better formats for ducuments
[22:36:37] <JymmmmEMC> or PS =)
[22:36:53] <archivist> have you not realised that I directly search and go to the page I want obviating the need to download pdf overbloat
[22:37:27] <JymmmmEMC> how can you search for something on a specific page?
[22:38:02] <archivist> if its ocr'd then the text will be in the db
[22:38:34] <JymmmmEMC> archivist and you backup the db regularrly?
[22:38:51] <JymmmmEMC> and you have OCR'ed all of them already?
[22:38:51] <archivist> what you see on the web is the backup
[22:39:06] <archivist> live is at home
[22:39:31] <Fritz> logger_emc, bookmark
[22:39:31] <Fritz> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-07-13.txt
[22:39:59] <JymmmmEMC> archivist so, how many have you scanned so far (percentage wise)?
[22:40:15] <archivist> .0 something
[22:40:20] <JymmmmEMC> heh
[22:40:41] <archivist> pictures to a higher %
[22:40:45] <lerneaen_hydra> 'night all
[22:41:08] <JymmmmEMC> After I had to move a few years, I said no more books (unless refernce). Digital all the way now.
[22:41:35] <JymmmmEMC> 600 lbs in books, eeeeeesh.
[22:41:41] <archivist> 99% of mine is reference
[22:42:19] <JymmmmEMC> archivist No, I mean like maps, machinery handbook, etc. That's that never change.
[22:42:26] <JymmmmEMC> maps being the exception