what var in the ini changes the direction the stepper...
to fix the fact that I have it wired backwards
Ziegler: negate "scale"
INPUT_SCALE to be more precise
I've got working gerber to gcode now
gerber to gcode?
isnt gerber gcode?
jepler: ever get an answer on your square wave question?
jepler: a universal counter/timer is (was) the usual test gear for measuring the period of a pulse - don't remember if they can easily be set to watch a pulse train for a long pulse.
You have microcontrollers, yes?
yes -- I can imagine constructing a microcontroller program to do this
but I was more wondering if there is a special kind of device to do this that would be in a well stocked lab
I haven't been in a well stocked lab in a long time - the tools around today have advanced considerably since then.
while in my case, I've never been in a proper electronics lab
couldn't a basic 555 setup as a missing pulse detector do it?
ds2: that would be one way of doing it, but it may be faster to program a micro devel system than to build a circuit.
probably depends on the time spans you want to measure
I imagined a microcontroller that would measure with 1us granularity and maintain a readout of 4 numbers: longest/shortest and high/low
whats the difference?
Ziegler, gerber is a union of traces, g-code is an outline of the traces, very different things
I worked in a factory maintaining automatic test equipment up until '88, in the next job I built one to test a product I designed. The test eqip was off the shelf stuff
interesting... ill have to read a bit more into it
gerber is very easy cause things can overlap (hence unions)
where as g-code has to have the outline of all these unions, which requires multiple passes on the gerber data
I've been working on this for the past 2 months in my spare time
~1k lines of code
* jepler wanders off
I feel dumb... I always thought that the g in g-code stood for gerber
if you made circuit boards you'd know about all of this
its been longer than 2 months :P
shit it seems like forever ago
well, last gcam release was 04.09
so not quite 2 months
I will probably make the next release on the 10th
releasing gerber->g-code as beta for the first iteration
me slams a CANADIAN for celebration
I'd like to see gcam in the next EMC Ubuntu LiveCD distro
or have a debian package made
Hello, is anyone aware of the jogging problem with the latest trunk?
martin_lundstrom: no -- perhaps you should describe it
Ide never give ubuntu a second chance
or most other distros for that matter
I can only jog once, then I get a lock situation
ahh.. I see gerber files are specifically for doing printed circuit boards
martin_lundstrom: which GUI? How are you jogging (e.g., keys, mouse click, etc)?
martin_lundstrom, try adjusting your max velocity and accelerations
does the program freeze?
suse works great for me and if I were going to switch Ide do it next release of opensolaris
only the jogging
open solaris 11
Twingy: isnt gerber and g-code the exact same code?
minus tooling details?
only thing they have in common is they are ASCII
however a drill file is g-code or very close to it usually
so no G1 codes or G0 codes?
martin_lundstrom: how are you jogging? by pressing a key (which key?) or by clicking?
jepler: by cllicking
jepler: key jogging works fine
ahh difference being gerber is RS274x
g-code is RS274d
martin_lundstrom: OK -- thanks for your report. that one must have slipped through my testing the last time I changed that stuff
and I never click those buttons except when I am testing changes..
jepler, who worked on the calibration interface in axis last?
Twingy: I'm not sure -- probably petev
I have a problem with...
[19482.423888] 116779: ERROR: Unexpected realtime delay: check dmesg for details.
[19482.423907] In recent history there were
[19482.423908] 198946, 232978, 163862, 199156, and 197255
[19482.423909] elapsed clocks between calls to the motion controller.
[19482.423913] This time, there were 206880 which is so anomalously
[19482.423914] large that it probably signifies a problem with your
[19482.423915] realtime configuration. For the rest of this run of
[19482.423917] EMC, this message will be suppressed.
jepler, ever used turbocnc axis configuration interface?
what can I do?
it's alot easier to use than axis right now, i.e. all of the fields have units, and it says things like, at 18000Hz max velocity and 24000Hz acceleration your max velocity is 18.75ipm achieved in 3.79 seconds
and my base period is not very fast
Hz of acceleration?
ill have a look
cradek, I forget the units for acceleration in TurboCNC, but the big thing is they all have units and each field makes sense
in EMC they make sense if you read through the manual, in turbocnc you know immediately what they are without the manual
like when I first ran it there is a little calculator built into the configuration menu that factors in threads per inch, steps per revolution, and microstepping
and figures out the linear movement equal to one step etc
just lots of little things like that which make it a pleasure to use
other than that I prefer EMC in just about every other aspect
Twingy: we'd happily consider anything you'd like to contribute to fix up those loose ends
not everyone may agree with me, but friends I have talked to that switched from TurboCNC to EMC preferred the turbocnc interface for configuring axis a little more
cradek, yea, it's gtk right?
some of the programs are gtk
cause like I'm knee deep in writing code for GCAM right now
but when I'm done this gerber stuff I wouldn't mind improving the calibration interface
well, no calibration really
should really be called setup
since you are configuring every aspect of your axis (currently done with a text editor and EMC manual)
that traditional unix way
but since you're running under ubuntu and ubuntu's moto is linux for humans, it deserves and interface
anyways, I'll poke around at it
we'd love to have you work on pulling the configuration together into a gui
ok, that should be easy
the hard part is learning what the heck MAX_STEPGEN and MAX_VELOCITY etc "mean"
I just need to go through the manual
no, the hard part is making a gui that is as flexible as emc is
that shouldn't be all that hard, can be done with a tabbed notebook for each axis
a program that only knows step/dir and a parport is pretty simple to configure
however, emc is nothing like that program
I put up my BASE_PERIOD to 60000 and seemed to do the tric for me
cradek, have you never used turbocnc?
dont taint him LOL
well, tainting one to get a better interface out of it is not such a bad idea
to be blunt, I'm not interested in writing a configuration gui - that will have to come from someone else, probably a new volunteer
that's fine, that's the essence of open source etc...
I'm interested in working on the capabilities of the machine controller itself
everyone brings something, everyone adds the part they want added
as long as it doesn't suck ass
cradek: Brewery automation module?????
i.e. I don't let shit code get into gcam
cradek: New module for emc
Twingy: it's a little harder to keep a larger team in line, but we seem to do ok
Twingy: If you pay for TCNC, you do get the source code for it. Then you coudl always write your own interface.
I don't want to change the turbocnc interface...
I want to improve the one in EMC :)
for axis setup etc
very minor thing
Twingy: Use the source luke
yep yep, I'll talk more about in on weeks to come
talk i scheap
Nike.... JUST DO IT!
exactly, I should stop talking and work on gcam
Does everyone know what I mean id I said "pot metal"?
Does everyone know what I mean when I say "pot metal"?
pot metal means zinc
the yellowish stuff?
you might find it on old telco stuff
it has a certain look, not sure if it's yellow
is a zinc aluminum alloy
its grey / silver in color
zamak and za-12 are common examples
No, this is mroe yellowish and slight other colors in it
pot metal has slight quantities of zinc in it... but not that you would notice it
yellowish.. brass copper alloy? whats it used in again?
this sounds right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_metal
I've only seen it in cheap mass production stuff
hehe... if seen it in high end stuff too
I just never knew what it's REALLY called, always knwon it as "pot metal"
za-27 is used quite a bit for die-casting
has tensile stength of cast iron
kinda like this... http://dieselgiant.com/mbodo30.JPG
I have an old 9x20 craftman lathe... the gears are made from potmetal
that gear looks like brass
it's not, just the light hitting it funny
blow toarch will turn potmetal into a puddle
'The primary component of pot metal is zinc'
za-12 12% aluminum 2% cu, about smidge of mag, and all the rest zinc
pot metal can take plating too
[02:40:54] <Ziegler> http://www.enigma-replica.com/StatusPhotos/Zamak%20Cast.JPG
[02:41:56] <Ziegler> http://www.eazall.com/images/ingots-on-feet.jpg
<< pot metal ingots
* Ziegler drools
Ok this is the CLOSEST I could find... see the base http://www.techeblog.com/files/portable_rotary_phone.jpg
trying to think what else it might be.
if not potmetal
seems to be a likley piece for it
Well shit... I was trying to find out how this stuff machines =(
I have a case I need to modify
and it's made of that stuff.
well potmetal is a bit gummy
better than aluminum tho
That put it in the ball park?
hehe... instead of machining it... melt it down and cast a new case >:)
* Twingy casts aluminum in his back yard
* Ziegler cast iron in his back yard :P
I think I'm screwed either way... The case is U shaped, will be hard to even drill a hole on the drillrpress
tap it with an awl before you start drilling
start with a 1/16" and work up
when casting alu, is the process sensitive to the type of alloy mix being used?
sensitive? not really
clear as mud
I usually add a little zinc
No, I mean U shaped... 6" tall |_______14" wide___________|
but not really, you heat it up, limit exposure to air, and pour it
casting with an a356 alloy compared to an 60xx serries is much easier to cast
has less solidification shrinkage... etc
that said... I pour 6061 quite a bit
I haven't noticed much difference between 2xxx and 6xxx castings
I try to make my stuff as close to 7xxx as possible though
get your hands on a casting alloy
Silicon in the alloy supposely helps a lot
i tried to machine some "grating" plate alu in my lathe, bloody impossible, don't know what alloy it was though
is 7 serries and 6 serries forged alloys?
7 is tempered
as gummy as it gets before you get to pure aluminum
Ziegler, probably yes. the kind they use for toolboxes and the like.
yeah... I spent my first 6 months casting using extrusions for my scrap
then I start purchaing ingots of a356
a356... think cast aluminum pieces "mag" wheels, engine heads and pistons... etc
I make my own ingots from soda cans
hehe been there
very tricky though
soda cans generate alot of slag
yeah.. lots of loss
i have a ninja motorcycle front wheel i can melt, but don't know if the ally is good for it
cause you don't have the proper CO2/Argon atmosphere
03petev 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/ini/emcIniFile.hh: -Added default value for num parameter to several FindXXX() methods.
03petev 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/libnml/inifile/inifile.hh: -Added default value for num parameter to several FindXXX() methods.
Twingy: for the price of a proper argon setup... you might as well purchase certified ingots
that's why I tend not to melt the cans
only once in a blue moon I'll melt down 100 cans and pour brick
wow.. hard core man
then I'll cut the brick up on my band saw
and alloy it with 6061
what sort of cast do you do
for what purpose though?
you know that pink fomular[tm] stuff from home depot? I use that too
I'm working on an aluminum rocket motor
lost foam then to ya?
I cast prototype gun parts for a gun smith
which is why I bought my cnc mill and wrote gcam
a bit of art now and then
oh... and when I am done with my router machine
everyone and their uncle wants $50 or $100 for their crappy CAM software
I will be making patterns to cast a new machine :)
hehe BobCAD wanted even more
yea so I was like forget it, I'll just write something basic
for my needs
ive only written a image-gcode progam
and I stopped working on it
when I saw one was included with EMC2
I think that one is almost usable by now
I think gcam should get rolled into the EMC distribution
the only thing unique about it was that web bassed
yes Twingy you have mentioned that. ;-P
any of you ever stop by backyardmetalcasting.com?
decent forum there for metalcasting
Twingy, good work with gcam!
I really need to get my hands on that find silicate powder sand
Where are you at Twingy?
what mesh sand do you have now?
Ziegler, my basement
Ziegler, I am just using generic beach sand
Twingy: I think he went WHERE on the planet
I guess I know of a few location through the us that US Silica supplies to
i received a pittman dc servo motor today... didn't do my research properly, it's dc alright, but still brushless
Jymmm, he could always just whois me... maryland
they have a nice foundry gradation that works well
for aluminum to iron
Twingy: you think so, huh? try whois'ing me =)
google US Silica
the other option... is to look into petrobond
or call a local foundry in maryland and ask them for some
fellow metal casters can be very generous
should be a number of foundries in your area
alright... off to bed
let me know how the sand hunt goes Twingy
Twingy: powder sandblasting ?
whats it fer
green sand ?
or better ?
they use ceramic for engine parts
you can get a very detailed sand cast with green sand
beachsand sounds fine enough too
that white stuff
how close can you get with green sand compared to investment casting?
investment casting can support thinner parts, higher dimensional accuracy, and better surface finish
it can get in the ballpark now with a very fine sand that is activated instead of green
activated by pumping co2 through it/chemically bonded
wonder what process they use to make those "alloy wheels" that seems so common thesedays... even unmachined surfaces look very clean
they're pressure forged
it's a type of casting
thought they were investment casted
it would be unfair to say wheels are made by xyz process
but that is a LOT of wax given how many they must make
since there's a bunch of acceptable ways to make a wheel
well, you can re-use the wax
in large scale investment casting
foam sounds better than wax
so it's actually competative with die casting
the wax is baked out of the mold in an oven
and you're left with the ceramic
instead of just vaporizing the wax out during the shot
that's only for the high production stuff though
because they have injection molds to make the wax positives
the melt goes right back into the machines for the next batch
very different from what a jeweler does making rings
do they still do that sort of stuff in the US?
we still do moldmaking
no, the casting part
what part of the US?
it's less common, but we still do it
would love to get a tour seeing it done
wonder what kind of certification rims need to go through
for road wortheyness
but california does it, and the northeast has always had manufacturing
california...must be down in LA then
you can make rims at home and use them, and they would be okay in most states
I can get scrap alu by the truckload
its 3x more money than steel to buy
you could most certainly cast your own wheel
but aluminum wheels need more expensive casting/forging
to be very lightweight
just make sure you've got enough bulk to take impacts
not using low profile tires helps, but that's another topic
small-scale stuff is pretty much a global market
and the united states is still known for very high quality dies and part runs
so mass-produced parts that need to meet high standards in manufacturing accuracy
are still done here
bah cast... machine it out of billet ;)
[04:03:46] <Unit41> http://www.lowpressurecasting.com/BP3.html
think they did that on american chopper
yeah, it works out of billet too
but billet wheels have to be thicker and heavier
than forged wheels
but billet wheels are like telling people you light cigars with $100 bills ;)
you could cast then machine it?
that is what i would do, personally
depends on your facilities
03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/html/gcode.html: one typo, one obsolete thing
03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/html/gcode.html: typo
indeed it does!
but i imagine for the price of a wheel-sized billet
i could easily afford the stuff to do small-time casting
i think i will buy my wheels =)
probably much cheaper
finally have an up to date flash install for linux
I'm probably months behind
hey so i got a new mobo to test for realtime when the ram gets here
google street view is very cool, hopefully it never goes realtime
it's an amd64 sempron... MSI - K9MM-V
you guys talking about ggole earth?
or have you seen it?
if you go to http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=436+Judah+St,+San+Francisco,+CA+94109,+USA&sll=37.796133,-122.427376&sspn=0.071486,0.16016&ie=UTF8&ll=37.766678,-122.465694&spn=0.008939,0.027058&z=16&om=0&layer=c&cbll=37.762171,-122.46665&cbp=2,201.779239864865,0.535192208928214,0
select street view
i can see my house and my old truck in google earth
my old badass truck i shoulda never sold it :(
that's cool, google never bought decent views of State College
the city i live.. dayton is all fuzzy
you can tell there is a city there, that's it
then ten minutes down the road you can see people in thier backyard pools and bushes in the yard
someimes almost even blades of grass.. but dayto, ohio is fuzzy
Penn State has a nice site, you can tell I didn't fertilize my yard very well, there are stripes of green/brown/green/brown
that link I gave shows a billboard advertising microsoft's version of google earth
it's been around for years
i don't remember how i found it
the terraserver url is still up
*just checked it
blah my flash player isn't up to ddate, it won't lemme see
microsoft has better pics of state college anyway
they have better pics of dayton also
no street view though
except WPAFB is blacked out last time i checked
that's pretty silly
but it makes sense in a paranoid world
I noticed that they no longer black out the roofs in D.C.
I thought that was really silly
some of those places you can't fly over.. so the google earth's and clones would be the only way to see them
except they would only be useful to someone with an air force or ICBM fleet, and those people have damn good pictures of WPAFB
if it was on google maps, maybe you could find your way around
there are three of every number on base, I've been very lost more than once
actually, there can be up to 4 of any given building number, areas a, b, c and kittyhawk
two of those areas run together, don't remember which twol
amd64 sempron, msi-k9mm-v, 1 gig of ram... and a 2 gigabyte hd from 1995. sounds like a winnner!
ok.. i'm putting a 40 gig ide in it...
why did you get amd?
well, it was cheap!
i have bought amd for the last 4 boxes i built
I thought about going back to intel this time
they are also quite cheap
i wanted this mobo, and it came with the cpu in a bundle
i had a case and a power supply already.. and ram is in the mail
how cheap was it?
i was there sunday helping a friend pick out a mobo to replace his.. the sata controller went bad in his game box
not cheap enough..
3000+ which i just read was 1.8 ghz?
good enough for me, i'm not tracking space shuttles or anything
I need ram
this box is getting candy paint (buy a pro car painter here in town i know) and it's going on ebay ;)
I'm trying to solve some very large problems, keep running out of ram
so i'm not even going to use it except i was gonna do the realtime test on it before it goes out
how much you got?
learning about sparse matrices, not fun for some reason
I have 2 gig
i saw 1 gig ddr2 chips for 32 bux
we just got a computer at work that has 16gig
when i bought mine last night
that's not bad
yeah at compusa i saw the mobo.. it could hold 16 gig
how many slots can you have?
i was like oh shit
and my buddy was like .. what's the big deal
the mobo i jsut got has 2 slots
need 64 bit os to use it
haven't used a 64 bit os since I left wpafb in '89
before that actually
Well, I replaced the fuse holder with a 15A resetable circuit breaker, now to try and fit EVERYTHING else in the case! LOL
:D has anyone found my http://nofingclue.com
website yet? lol!
and nofingclue related stories to add to it, anyone?
yeah a tad
i need to turn of statistics
any O-word experts here?
i can do the O-face ;)
only one way to find out... WOOT OFF
Only the obvious... Oh Fsck!
you guys are very helpfull
jmkasunich: Come on... i'm still learning what G0 and G1 do
its 1:30 in the morning, and the g-code reference cards go to the printer at sunrise
G0 is easy it even spells what it does
I'd like to have some info about O words (subroutines, branching, etc) on them
one thing i have never attempted was subroutines
jmkasunich: I foudn this... http://www.imsrv.com/deskcnc/DeskCNC%20G-code.pdf
I think I'm gonna have this for operators: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/operators.txt
brb gotta release the Eanis
so far got this for owords: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/owords.txt
I could add about 8-10 more lines
it only takes 500 grams of fantastic plastic to make a complete mill
minus the bed frame
jmkasunich: do you have an ieee account?
and other parts
unit41: what about welding and drill/tap/screws?
jmkasunich: Damn... http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel5/9397/29813/01359546.pdf
Unit41: even less - about 10 grams of plastic will do
deffinatly need it though
i built my mill without, lol
as long as its 2-1/8 x 3-3/8 inches
not even any jb weld
I never welded one spot yet
and about 0.040 thick, with embossed numbers on top
just got it back
if you use good l brackets you can get away with no welds
im going to post diagrams on cnczone soon
jmkasunich: Ironically, guess where all the refernces are pointed to... http://www.google.com/search?q=o+word+gcode
I never realized that '#n' was a variable.
you up early robin_
03jmelson 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc.ini: update ini file
03jmelson 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ppmc_io.hal: update config files
03jmelson 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/configs/ppmc/ (ppmc_load.hal ppmc_motion.hal ppmc_servo.hal): update config files
[06:50:25] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/gcode-ref-back-single.pdf
jmkasunich: Maybe many know already, but I like to see examples personally. It helps to make sure one understands the syntax. Like passing/receiving variables as example.
I put a few examples in there
this isn't to replace the manual, you can only do so much with one sheet of paper
more like a quick reference / memory jogger
[07:20:10] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/gcode-ref-front-single.pdf
at this point, what you see is what you're gonna get, it goes to the printer in the morning
jmkasunich: I suspect this is for fest?
we're gonna have a bunch of them printed up and laminated, as handouts
jmkasunich: I guess I would have handed out CD's instead. Adding the Refernce charts as files on it - Especially since everyone will have a computer.
we'll have CDs too, burn on site, or maybe some pre-burnt
jmkasunich: you guys have a project for this year?
no single thing
lots of stuff
regarding the cards - everybody might have a computer, not everybody has a nice printer, and fewer yet have a laminator to keep greasy fingerprints off of it
I think people will like them
Yeah, I like my laminated size chart
half of an 8x11 sheet
[07:27:03] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/gcode-ref-front-double.pdf
thats what we'll print for the back
[07:27:32] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/gcode-ref-back-double.pdf
I don't have a two up pdf for the front
so comp is a big thing for most folks?
no bigger than lots of other things
jmkasunich, handy, thanks
but its one where a pic is worth 1000 words
The_Ball_: you're welcome
Yeah, the illustration is good.
* The_Ball_ is just starting with emc/cnc
it took me a bit to see where it was on/off
emc needs a logo =)
I need sleep
Do geckos need airflow?
they need heatsinking, above a certain current
mine got really hot, but when i mounted them on a heat sink they are cool
I'm intending to use a1/8" al plate to mount them on
read the fine manual
a EAL heatsink, or a metal plate to disapate heat
its on the gecko site, you don't have to buy the drive first
jmkasunich: what page? 1, 2, or 3?
I used a sink, but I over-do everything
read it all
i also over did it, two drives on a 10x4" long and 2" deep fins
btw I have read it a few times. But I wasn't sure of a metal plate was enough, or the heatsink needed fins as well.
The_Ball where did you get the heatsink from?
depends on how much load you'll be putting on the drive, how much air movement you have, what your supply voltage is, and how big the plate/sink is
it's a .au chain
my "to inches" doesn't work properly (i have the flu) but that's the one http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HH8546&CATID=&keywords=heatsink&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=
I just found this too... http://www.timgoldstein.com/cnc/heatsink.asp
why free frograms can i use for generating g code?
what free frograms can i use for generating g code?
[11:30:42] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Cam
but archivist is also right - a lot of parts are practical to program by hand
what would be the best free tool for g code generating for 4 axis hot wire machine for styrofoam cutting (similar to EDM machine)? Maybe edm360?
I Know this was recently descussed on the emc user email list.
I think the main problem is normally machines with parallel axiss program the second set in relative coordinates to the first.
emc does not do this yet.
it does not seem terribly difficult to write a kinematics module to do this
(this is not an offer to write it, though)
:O what happens when I attempt to access a hal_bit_t from component A that was created in component B?
answer: the call in comp A doesn't return!
jepler: I would think that would be great for a wire edm.
maddash: in the HAL model, each component only reads or writes its own pins. Connections between pins are established through signals which are generally created and connected by halcmd.
jepler: yeah, it took me a while to realize the "only its own pins" part
jepler: but if the hal_bit_t is part of a shmem segment, shouldn't it be shared as well?
maddash: even if it worked, it would still be incorrect use of HAL. Given that fact, I'm not too interested in exactly why it turns out to make your program segfaul or whatever
jepler: so hal_bit_t should never reside in shmem?
odd, i'm getting "HAL: ERROR: data_ptr_addr not in shared memory," almost as if HAL wanted the hal_bit_t to reside in shmem
aha,, got it.
is there some kind of log system that records all the posts in this irc channel?
welcome lojz, Robbo
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-06-05.txt
lojz: yes, most of the time, logger_emc does that
i have one question about skunkworks's post about wire edm machine: "I think the main problem is normally machines with parallel axiss program the second set in relative coordinates to the first". How should i write the kinematics module to do this? Wouldn't be easier to make a script which would edit/change g code for parallel axes coordinates?
that's certainly another way to do it
is there a free software capable of g code generating for 4 axis wire machine? I checked the wiki's list, but havent found one...except the APT seems to be universal. Has anyone try to use it for this?
I don't know of any, but I have never used such a machine either
* lojz slaps logger_emc around a bit with a large trout
did anyone see Dallur lately?
I have some ffedback for his THC config
martin_lundstrom: on july 1, he said "<Dallur> l8r, see you guys in 2 weeks" -- http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-06-01.txt
July is in 4 weeks
oh june 1, he said ...
man you'd think I'd know one month from another
I can usually tell them apart in real life, but the numbers always get screwed up
could have been last july
Hi archivist. What do you think of these goof balls?
Well - you don't have to answer that.
heh /me reserves judgement
mostly normal when that jymmmmmm is not here
he is not here - we can talk about him ;)
i did check first
a little birdy told me there is another clockwork person in here
do yo umean the time guy? :)
cradek is the timeguy
clock is maaa day job
I don't do it much anymore, but I did clean an Accutron last night
I saw your website - some very neat clock stuff there
Im playing with a crap german clock self correcting mech atm
what is self correcting?
it gets the striking in time with the hour hand
* skunkworks is a little too shakey to work on anything smaller than a grandfather clock.
I have not done much clock stuff - my tools are all watch size
skunkworks, you should try hand turning under a stereo zoom microscope
we dont do much watch size but do go up to tower clock size
they where playing a HD video of a clock maker/repairer at the local best buy. It was pretty cool.
did you see the E Howard tower clock in this month's Bulletin? It's really amazing
Howard's first tower clock (1847 iirc) in perfect condition
nah I dont get it
well this month it's "clock porn" haha
were you the one who had a source for very fine wire?
I'm looking for some #54 or #55 and it's VERY hard to get, do you do anything near that?
the size that solder can disolve
the size that a sharp look can dissolve
will have to measure/check what we have lying around
are you in the US?
cool, maybe you have some different sources there
he has a bbc remote camera truck - I think that is cool :)
I'd really like to get some of that, if you have some, please let me know
I think it's way too fine to respool, and that makes it hard to buy less than a full spool (significant part of a pound)
cradek: what is that used for?
in a clock
I want it to try to rewind coils in Accutrons
a lot of them are failing - they'll all be gone in 50 years at this rate
The coil opens up?
THE coil person is no longer here but I see no real problem re spooling a bit
archivist: that's great
hmm just getting a req for a 2mm od pinion
I get the small jobs
that's not clock size...
most time is machine setup for that sort , its for a musical box
other clockmakers use us for the hard stuff
I need a cnc gear miller with auto centering to make it easy
how do you polish a pinion that size? I've seen a pear (?) wood wheel setup but for bigger stuff
I tend to cheat a bit, dremel
and let the miller cycle a few extra times
well I guess it's the results that count
I would have never thought to try that :-)
we have got a wood polishing machine
but a pain to set up for one offs
any photos of these kinds of jobs on your site?
I must put some links up but www.archivist.info/clock/ for a start
www.archivist.info/cnc/ for machinery
top right hand for small pinions
circa 1956 machine
ah - brand new!
bottom right 30's
Now we have to ask why your not running emc for your little mill....
wow, 3 fusees on that crazy clock
is it english or did others use fusees in clocks too?
I guess english stuff isn't so uncommon for you :-)
skunkworks, it needs doing the software in that cnc is crap
easy retrofit I bet
it's just one axis of motion plus indexing right?
x y and z
indexing was extra
thats do it yourself
and it has no idea of a zero position
ie some random place in space after switch on
and the comms locks up if the pc is too fast
heh many people are liking to have home switches
they come in handy
archivist: what kind of interface is it to the computer? do you know?
crap in large doses
that just means you have to replace a few more parts!
is it steppers?
are they steppers?
hehe from the stepper drivers (ST Bricks) back
but I dont own it yet!
only me used it for the last few years
The owner is 80 odd just got to wait a bit!!
but his dad lasted well into his 90's
what was SGS Thomson semiconductors
you would think you would be able to get into there and maybe be able to use step and direction.. or maybe phase drive.
step abd dir
hi. I am having trouble downloading the LiveCD of EMC2. Any idea why a download to a Windows machine would be 300 bytes bigger (and have a different md5) than what other people report?
ytf, download with what?
I've tried Firefox and Opera just in case it was due to a browser bug.
same result each time.
also tried EU mirror
virus on your machine
do you have proxy configured?
I just responded on the users list
OK, not inconceivable, SWP.
I have Windows 2000 here, and the file size and md5sum are correct
Ball: hmm. not that I am aware of. I'm running CA antivirus
thanks for the thoughts
did you say you have a working ubuntu 7.04 CD?
two flavors: the LiveCD and the special install (Xubuntu)
boot from that, download the file to a USB stick, then reboot into Windows to burn it
SWP: interesting approach.
(unless you have 2 CD drives, and can burn with the liveCD still in a drive)
OK, I'll give that a try.
also, while you're at it, download one of those linux virus scanner/system repair CDs (like Ultimate Boot CD) :)
hmm. Well, I'm running Windows on this machine I'm doing the downloads on. i thought you were mentioning Windows-as-virus at first, thus the "heh".
yep - figured ;)
correction. I'm running CA _firewall_, not AV. I wonder if the firewall is goosing up the download somehow.
it shouldn't be, if that were the case, you'd probably get extra crap on web pages and stuff
my AV stuff is Grisoft AVGfree. I'll do a scan, maybe I'll be lucky enough to see something if I haven't been rootkitted :\ :)
OK, I'll storm the castle now. Thanks, folks!
it's always best to boot from a CD for virus scanning - it prevents some attacks (some viruses know what the AV programs are)
have fun storming the castle
jepler: thanks for the hint with Dallur
what's the difference betwen "AXIS_* -> MAX_VELOCITY" and "TRAJ -> MAX_VELOCITY"? the user manual states that the former is the max vel. "while coordinated motion is in effect." what does this mean?
"coordinated motion" == auto mode?
coordinated motion means that emc is moving more than one axis at a time fora single move
like G0 x1 y1 z1 is coordinated, whether it's issued from MDI or auto mode
ok, so the entry under [traj] only holds true if it is < the entry under [axis] and/or emc is in manual mode?
the [TRAJ] limit is the max the trajectory planner will attempt, and that operates on the vector sum of axis motions
if any [AXIS] limit is lower than [TRAJ] fora particular move, the entire move (all axes) will be slowed down to accomodate the lower limit
as an example, if you have X/Y/Z axis limits at 1, then the machine can actually move at sqrt(3) velocity, for a diagoonal move
sqrt (x^2 + y^2 + z^2) (velocity limits)
in free mode (when homing or jogging, I think) the TRAJ limit isn't used, since each axis basically has an independent planner in that mode
what if the axis limit == traj limit? then the maximum velocity (diagonal move or not) is the traj limit itself?
also, what if the seek_velocity > traj limit?
actually, it doesn't matter what it is. here's how it works (in coordinated mode):
sorry, I meant HOME-SEARCH-VEL
ok, that's free mode, afaik
basically, wither of the motion planners will never exceed the limit for that axis
the coordinated planner will additionally not exceed the TRAJ limits
(even if it would be possible from the AXIS* limits alone)
gotta run. hopefully that clears it up a little
hmm cradek finest wire ive found is on the fat side at .073 mm including insulation/laquer
thanks for looking, this would be more like .015mm
dunno if we have smaller yet
wow! 330km per pound!
this is why I don't want to buy a 1/3 to 1/2 pound spool :-)
I wonder how many miles I have on the bench atm 44 swg and about 4-5 lbs
bah more than 6 the scales error out
are you making motors nows? =)
err sorry im lagged
cradek: no solenoids or such with that small of wire?
skunkworks: see the coils? http://members.iinet.com.au/~fotoplot/acctech214.htm
cradek: oh. that is a wrist watch?
if I can find the wire, *maybe* I can wind them under control of HAL
the wire has to be wound with about 1 gram of tension
wow. (I don't think we have anything that small :))
nobody does, it's extremely hard to find
#52 is not too hard to find, but it would be too big
reduce the turns so it still fits
may effect battery life a bit
archivist: I think that would affect the circuit's operation and the tuning fork amplitude too
the amplitude is very critical
Im assuming the resonance of the fork should control that to an extent
you mean control the amplitude? I don't think so
you can easily see the difference between mercury (1.35) and silver oxide (1.55) batteries
1.55 being better?
actually no, the higher amplitude causes problems in some watches
they were of course designed for the mercury batteries
ok so thicker wire if it detunes it may be cured by a resistor change or battery change
amplitude, not frequency
so try it if you have a dead one
right, the frequency is the fork resonance - the amplitude, current draw, battery life etc are the things it would mess up
I'm sure they didn't use #55 wire "for fun" considering the HUGE price increases once you get below about #51
I am trying to think what I have fixed that had such small wire that I just stuck it into the pool of solder.
probably to increase battery life mainly, I wonder if the modern batteries have more capacity than the ones they were designing for
not really, they guaranteed a year when new and we get no more than 14 months with modern batteries
so, they're probably about the same
clearly you're going to have to manufacture the wire yourself
how hard can it be?
easy - first, drill a .001 inch hole, then, pull a mile of wire through it
then, simply insulate it
oh that's easy -- just use hair spray
[18:46:28] <cradek> http://members.iinet.com.au/~fotoplot/acctech221.htm
this model (mostly used in ladies watches) has smaller coils
the whole gear train is in the lower right corner there - it's worm gears - one is in sideways
they're *very* challenging to reassemble
drilling 0.001 holes is easy ;)
* ds2 ducks
cradek: can't you just turn thicker wire down to .001 on your sherline? none of this pushing wire through holes, that's asinine.
sure, with a follower rest, why didn't I think of it?
and a barstock feeder.
skunkworks is on to somethin
I see a project for the cnc workshop
will this use a 3J chuck ?
making the coil winder (controlled servos) would be fun - but without the wire available, why bother
sorry to bore you all with my pipe dream project :-)
cradek: is there anyone out there that rebuilds these watches now?
there are about four people that I know of, I'm one
have you rewound the coils by hand?
the guy who belongs to that website is in australia and is good
no, nobody fixes the coils as far as I know.
ah - ok
it would be totally impossible to do by hand
aww - where is your sense of adventure?
we all mix and match coil sets to sacrifice some watches for others - eventually they will all be dead
... which is why it would be nice to be able to rewind them!
hmm just been for a nother wire dig and found 46 swg
(but it's probably not practical to think I can do it in my basement with simple homemade equipment)
archivist: this wire is probably $6000/lb, I'd be awfully surprised if you had any so small without knowing for sure where it is :-)
it came as a job lot from a company that shut down
then forget that I told you the price!
* archivist searches harder
* archivist starts lifting floor boards
$6000/lb? That's nothing compared to the street price of drugs in drug busts.
This is a bunch of bull -> <cradek> (but it's probably not practical to think I can do it in my basement with simple homemade equipment)
when I see our ex worker next I shall ask him
skunkworks: you can be sure I'll try if I can find the wire
(for a price I'm willing to pay)
archivist: thanks a lot for trying
Hell - I refine my own plutonium in my basement.
yeah cradek -- after you re-wind accutrons, you need to work on a nyoo-kyoo-lurr wristwatch
isn't mercury bad enough?
I ment I refine my own radon in my basement.
that I can believe...
we have the odd amount of meercury around
yeah I think we all do
err, I mean skunkworks does
* cradek glances around
we made a mercury pendulum last year
I always thought that was a clever hack
also the steel/brass schemes
but "pour some more in the jar" and "dump some out of the jar" to adjust the compensation is hard to beat
fun was proving it in solidworks
what's the material here?
by the way that shiny metal is cast iron
it's a nice finish
is there a glass jar inside? (isn't the mercury in glass?)
<- not a clock guy
I just hope it doesnt leak through the irom pores
couldn't you use anything (oil or such) why mercury?
just the weight?
the mercury is used for temperature compensation
as the pendulum gets longer (warmer), the mercury expands "up" to compensate
my grandpa make wood clocks. Nothing that accurite.
the user wanted a steel rod but that did not calculate out for me so invar it has to be
other schemes use metals that expand differently (brass and steel I think) in mechanical configurations that balance out
isn't easier thesedays to build a temp control chamber? ;)
they tend to have stiction problems with the rods
now we'd just use metal that doesn't change size
archivist: invar rod with mercury pendulum is a bit of a clash of technologies isn't it?
the clock just needs to be in a temp controlled chamber :)
yes, ideally in a vacuum too
... on granite buried deep into the earth
at that point - an atomic clock might be the answer.
but that's science - this is art!
we have an artcle from a bloke who used a concrete block
actually timekeeping is a neat clash of science and art - I think it's why I like it
doesn't the value of G change ever so slightly when you go deep enough?
ds2: or up
and with the moon
so buried deep in the earth would make it in accurate ;)
ds2: not too deep, or you'll end up on the other side with -g
they become G meters
well - you would calibrate it at that depth - of cource
G is constant - m & r change I think
but if you go deep enough, G should be zero ;)
G, the gravitational constant, is ... constant
the figure that is about 9.8m/s =)
G is an approximate constant
[19:15:07] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=305468#post305468
that may reqire a "patches are welcome" post
I am following this instructions: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?AptProgrammingForEMC
and i can't install libf2c, dxflib and pyopengl. I get "couldn't find package" error. Any idea hat could be wrong?
maybe we should send him the source ... oh, wait
kwajpol: my only guess is that those names are not debian package names, and that you can use "apt-cache search", google, and a little bit of guessing to find the actual package names.
skunkworks: he could use 'run from line', or put each tool's gcode in its own file
skunkworks: but if he just wants to whine, I suggest you don't bother trying to help
(if there are debian packages of all those things in the first place)
kwajpol: for instance, I happen to know that the ubuntu 6.06 package name for "pyopengl" is "python2.4-opengl"
kwajpol: if you're able to determine the proper package names, please improve the wiki by adding them.
cradek: you should have seen he's using advanced psychology leverages to try to convince us change the software to suit him
alex_joni: all cradek can see is that if that's what he had in mind, it didn'twork
I'd invite him to go to austria
specifically to this village: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucking
:) The frequently stolen traffic sign
eh I don't want to be that way
he should use whatever software he wants
if he picks free software, he can improve it to suit his tastes if he wants, he holds all the cards
[19:26:15] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=305473#post305473
yeah, but it seems he chose to pay for nonfree sw .. so it's his choice
when you do that, complaining is your only choice
skunkworks: you failed to say I mentioned austria
:) I could not bring myself to do that.
I was relying on that
I sympathize with his need, and machines like that are why I did the probing/tool length stuff
kill them with kindness
(that's a MUCH better solution than jogging)
moving the machine while the program is paused is dangerous at best
it's a bad solution
hmm any cnc lathe subs in the east midlands
somebody has just walked in with a job
maybe I'll work on a digital I/O only firmware for pluto during fest .. shouldn't be too much work
hopefully fast enough for "fast thread" use: it would be about 4 I/O instructions (10 epp bus cycles) to read and write everything
what kind of app do you have in mind?
cradek: nothing more specific than "more digital I/Os from a regular parport"
I wonder if any of jmk's stepgen code could be reused to make a (even rudimentary) step generator
we've talked about stepgen for pluto
I think you are unlikely to end up using code from jmk's stepgen effort on pluto, since from the very beginning you're carefully counting bits
(flipflops in this case)
jmkasunich: It looks like I wasn't the only one to think of using a pulse signal through the ESTOP circuit (I found this after I had thought of the idea) http://www.pilz.com.au/pulse.htm
I'm impressed with what the current firmware does - it has everything I needed
except maybe watchdog - we should test that
oh yeah that's a much better thing to work on -- watchdog is important
is all that stuff on your laptop?
it looks like there's room for the watchdog counter and "tristate all outputs", but getting the watchdog counter operations right is tricky
I thought you guys were playing with mesa board, Now pluto too?
(assuming you don't intend to take another machine)
cradek: I thought about bringing my amd64 but swp will have one of those he said
good, more room for my ridiculous machine
JymmmmEMC: server-sized tower case
weighs about 250 lbs or so
250LBS ?! WTH
it's more like 450lbs
what's in it?
700 with the monitor
JymmmmEMC: "Pluto_servo is an emc2 software driver and associated firmware that allow the Pluto-P board to be used to control a servo-based CNC machine." http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/hal/pluto_servo.html
cradek: oh, heh.... you mean it's just dman heavy being so old?
I got a pluto before I got a mesa
jepler: it's just for servo though?
JymmmmEMC: yes, it is PWM out and Quadrature in
Hmmm I see Pluto, Pluto 2, and pluto 3, is this thing break pass the 2us delat of pport?
JymmmmEMC: it is based on offloading work from the PC to the external board---the FPGA is in charge of counting at 40MHz and turning the PWM on and off. The PC just sends the desired duty cycle about every 1ms (the "servo-thread" speed)
JymmmmEMC: just like with mesa and jon elson's board there is no "fast thread" at all
so no worrying about what BASE_PERIOD you need to properly receive the quadrature feedback from the stepper motors
jepler: Ah, thought it be nice for steppers, with the extra IO and such
the PC just retrieves the number of quadrature counts seen every 1ms
JymmmmEMC: it would probably be nice for high-speed stepper waveforms too, but somebody has to write the firmware to do it first
jepler: Heh, I barely understand the FPGA acronym, much less coding for it! LOL
JymmmmEMC: it's a bit different than programming for computers or microcontrollers
Yeah, I understand you are actually "writing" your own soft IC (so to speak).
Boing 737, 30000 feet and climbing =)
JymmmmEMC: I have no doubt that anyone who can learn the fundamentals of microcontroller programming can learn the fundamentals of FPGA programming
jepler: I haven't written C (much less ASM) since 1984
$60 isn't too shabby either.
jepler shoehorned enough into it to make a nice little $60 servo controller
if you decided to buy one of those knjn.com boards to learn about FPGAs, you would probably be better off with a USB one than the parallel port one
It be nice to be able to use ANY computer and have smooth waveform for stepper control.
jepler: Sadly enough, I only have ONE computer (laptop) that has USB2, the rest are 1.1
Hell, my laptop is unique in that it has USB2, Firewire, DVDRW, built in FDD, SD slot, serial port and parallel port all built in.
that's just like my laptop
except for the USB2 and P4 3GHz
and SD slot(s)
ok, so it has a floppy and serial/parallel ports :)
Yeah, there are only two mfg's that still have paraport's... Fujitsu and Panasonic Toughbooks.
and before anyone says anything... No, I can't use USB2SERIAL adapters. The polling mucks up RT data collection from GPS/Radio.
SWPadnos: floppy and FW huh? I'm surprised at that combination. What brand?
it's 5 years old
Ah, never heard of it
[20:50:13] <SWPadnos> http://www.mtechlaptops.com
I think they're just about next door to you, come to think of it
it's a Clevo / Kapok computer, like most of the clones and many of the name brands
here you go: http://www.mtechlaptops.com/specifications/mtechd900k.htm
no floppy though (except USB)
SWPadnos: seems like a awfully expensive laptop
Is it common to have writeback cache on a floppy?
err actually no it's not expensive
it's a big fast powerful laptop, so expensive just goes along with the territory ;)
it's cheap for those specs, but still expensive relative to the entry level
try this one: http://www.mtechlaptops.com/specifications/mtechm550n.htm
my little laptop costs like 2300$
the work one..
so I guess I shouldnt whine :D
I'm not impressed with Dual CPU/Core systems
Lack of real support for them
well, it's not spectacular on any OS.. :)
except maybe solaris or something
Yeah, but SMP is something *I* feel that should be handled by the OS in it's entirety, not the application(s).
smp IS handled by the OS
JymmmmEMC, I thought I told you that was impossible
do I need to up your meds?
ok I won't try to help here
SWPadnos: READ MY LIPS.... I said I FEEL that is the way it should be damnit!
he's talking about having the OS auto-SMP-ify non-threaded apps ...
SWPadnos: Apps can only go as fast as the CPU/OS they're running on. Why couldn't (in theory) the OS just simpely tell the app "I have super powers, so bring it on!" and let the OS distribute the load
a single app can't be "distributed" by the OS
multiple apps can be (and are) balanced on multiple cores
JymmmmEMC, not bullshit
you said you did assembler in '84
cradek: no, just C
remember how you'd do an operation, and in a later instruction check the flags that resulted?
if (i<10) blah
what if the core that gets the if statement executes it before the core that gets the i++ statement?
things have to happen sequentially, programs are written that way
if things can be separate and concurrent, programmers use threads
bring back the transputer
This is just a pet peeve of mine is all.... You have to have an OS that supports multiple cpu's, why couldn't it take whatever is thrown at it, and let the OS split the load across CPUs. Kinda like a conductor of sorts.
it does, for various chiunk sizes of code
one chunk is a program
another is a thread
JymmmmEMC: it does, but you need to give it more than one process
if you want to make a PBJ and 2 slices of bread and one jar of peanut butter, adding people won't make it get done faster
but, if you have an entire loaf of bread and case of PB, it *will*
does the lath work in diamiter programming, or are you stuck with radius programming?
what the OS can't do is take something that was written to be sequential (an individual app or individual thread), and make it work in parallel
Guest829: radius programming only
Guest829: diameter is shown on the screen now (not released yet)
Take for example some fancy video cards that you can use multiple cards and "bind" them together to get better performance.
SWPadnos: actually the processor does that
for some limited parts of it
JymmmmEMC, in that case, the software (driver) is written to support multiple CPUs (the individual processing units)
does constent surface speed work yet? or is it to be done
JymmmmEMC: try running deltaforce (cpu graphics only) on those cards
would it be better?
Guest829: to be done
alex_joni, yes, the CPUs have some support for out-of-order execution, but only on a small sequential set of instructions, and the amount of work (chip area) needed to synchronize that is almost as much as the processing units themselves
how do you use tool comp?
SWPadnos: I know, I did study this for about a year
Guest829: in the wiki there's a nice picture
Guest829: you have to set up a lathe format tool table, then use G40/41/42 as usual
[21:21:31] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Lathe_Advanced_Features
but be in G18 plane first
but that is tool nose radius comp
SWPadnos: I used to be familiar with henessy & patterson, tannenbaum, etc
the books, not the people
I probably am, but not by name ;)
tool length comp is what need
i have tool tbl setup
SWPadnos: I honestly wouldn't mind having a 3rd CPU doing all the logistics if I'd get that kind of performance on dual cpu. *ie twice as fast processing)
SWPadnos: (crypto stuff specifically)
JymmmmEMC, I'm not sure it's possible for arbitrary programs
a CPU can do this because it knows exactly which instructions depend on what data and more importantly, what results from other instructions
alex_joni, my client isn't opera - now what? ;)
get a proper client :P
SWPadnos: Yeah, I understnad, just bugs me. I even looked into distributed clusters too. no luck.
Guest829: then just issue G43
Guest829: after loading the tool, like T1 M6, G43 H1
JymmmmEMC, no luck because it may not be a solvable problem for the general case (some specific cases, sure)
Guest829: then the next move will be compensated
though it is still annoying
SWPadnos: Yeah, the app HAS to be written to support SMP
so mill G43 H1 is same for lathe then?
except it gives X and Z offsets, not just Z
Well, this is my last hope... reflashed the BIOS to see if this resolves the issue of loosing CMOS settings, but retains RTC setting.
Tyan thought the mobo might be shorting to the case, but I benched it and that's not it.
does G49 cancel X and Z as in milling from G43
No FPGA's are static are they? Menaing they HAVE to be reloaded each time (from PC or flash chip)?
SWPadnos: that guy tanenbaum .. is the guy that wrote minix
and he has a quite famous thread of emails with another guy called linus
JymmmmEMC, there are lots of flash FPGAs
there are also some that have the cells directly changed when they're programmed, so they're live at power-up