Ziegler: accel is accel, whether it's negative or positive - at the beginning of the move, you accel in the direction of the move; at the end, you accel in the opposite direction
skunkworksemc: if you can only mill a pcb at 5ipm, you sure need a better spindle
I found the CD for my first linux installation, and installed it on a compatible 486: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/yggdrasil-beta.jpg
the machine actually has 48MB of ram in it, but I guess linux only knew how to use 16 at the time
cradek: it isn't the spindle. at 15ipm the whole machine shakes.
so the traces look like sine waves ;) remember this machine only has the lead screw on one edge
hmm, maybe that's not a great machine for doing boards...
No - but it is what I have atm
kinda like using a hammer to fix a pocket watch. :)
I've done that - but a small hammer, skillfully applied
pls tell me your first name isnt Franz ;)
i just sent a mail to a franz z. :)
maybe a realative
have you guys considered making a GTK window that mimics the axis configuration menu in TurboCNC
because those fields for Tune0 Tune1 Tune2 don't even have units
that's the only aspect of TurboCNC that I like better than EMC atm
Well - only one mistake so far. almost have one good one ;)
skunkworks: what boards are you milling?
version .2 of the h-bridge
re-aranged some pads so I can use screw connectors. and fixed a minor mistake with the optos
your eagle to gcode is working flawlessly
I'm glad to hear it
I am still using th coordinate offset for tool length. which is working great also.
(that was what killed the first board I cut today.. I use 2 coordinate systems - one for the top and one for the bottom. when I switch to the bottom after milling the top - I made a mistake which cut thru the board. But I fixed that so I should be able to make a few with no issues.
I think I still haven't done a 2-sided board for myself on a milling machine
so I've been able to skip the "flip and try not to screw up" step
I tried to do it as easy as posible. I have pins setup for registering the board on the vacumm table.
When I made a mistake and cut all the way thru the board - it was a nice check to see that it was registered correctly ;)
I try really hard to make single-sided boards, even if it means a lot of jumpers -- I think soldering a jumper is easier than a via, and it's sure easier than two vias
and soldering top pads is often hard too, depending on the part
cradek: I'm sure you saw, but I figured out and fixed the bug on my x86-64 machine
there's also better^Wmore overrun checking now---we'll see if it leads to more reports of overruns
(emc now reports when rtai says there's been an overrun, even on the base thread)
my machine seems not to get them for 15000ns but does for 10000ns
that's excellent, I always wondered if that might be possible
maybe we could take out my hack of a test then
* jepler wanders off again
03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/mesa_5i2x/.cvsignore: ignore
Gawd I'm tired...
This place hasn't been maintianed in 3+ years... just cleared (most of) the back yard of 8" of packed weeds
theres actually concrete under there
Sherline controller... That looks bad imo http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Workshop/pmb_sherline_cnc_sys3_controller_inside_bottom.jpg
[05:43:53] <Unit41> http://rapidshare.com/files/34750684/Plasma.tar.gz.html
even Twingy likes plasma stuff
Maybe I should try doing something like this, much a lil clenaer on the wiring http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/CNC/CNC-Controller/02-Overall.jpg
YUCK, both as bad as each other
I can forgive the second one ... as its just some hoebrew noob
but the sherline one? thats no way to build a commercial product ... you cant have that much hand wiring in anything and hope to build it at a profit
what they should have is a PCB backplane they just plug the drive and controller onto
maybe some sort of bussbar to distribute to power .. or do it all on the backplane PCB
all those fueholders etc should be PCB mount and just on the edg of the backplane board ...
they might be machine desingers, but they are clearly not product designers
At the VERY least cable ties and/or wax string
Old skool =)
robin_sz: You know when MY wiring looks like that?
robin_sz: 2 minute prototyping/testing,
Hi guys, how hot do your servos get? Mine are getting almost to hot to touch without any mentinable load
i have one problem with axis z. I set it like all other 3 axes (x, y and a). I set the home position to 0, but when i click the home button it gets set to 39.850 instead to 0. Why i that? Now i cant execute my g code, since i get "linear move in MDI would exceed limits" error every time i try to move the z axis to 0.
what is your HOME_OFFSET in AXIS_Z in .ini file?
HOME in [TRAJ]?
0 0 0 0
HOME_OFFSETs are 0 for all 4 axis?
there must be some kind of bug, because i did copy-paste for all 4 axes and just z axis is making truble
could you paste your .ini file to http://www.pastebin.ca/
just a moment...
kwajstabo: it could also be an offset applied through g-code. You can clear an offset with a command like: G10 L2 P1 X0Y0Z0
[11:46:14] <kwajstabo> http://pastebin.ca/531148
the g code is very simple...just few go and g1 commands
i did not change ofset with g code
the "g54 offset" remains applied even after you exit -- you could have done it on a previous run
in the AXIS GUI, when an offset is in effect, and you are displaying "relative" coordinates, a cyan marker is shown at the machine origin: http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi-files/sandbox/axis-offset-in-effect.png
.ini file seems OK, but SERVO_PERIOD is missing. see lines 101-103
thank you yapler!...you were right...this solved the problem :)
kwajstabo: you're welcome
acemi...i checked it...i did a mistake while pasting to pastebin...i have the servo_period in my ini file
i have one question about G code...is there an option for a delay...i have a hot wire cnc machine which hast to wait a little so that wire reaches its temerture
I need a litele delay after M3
right now you have to program the delay yourself
G4 PN.NNN where N.NNN is the pause time in seconds
are quadrature outputs with >2 channels designed to be used with 3-5-phase steppers, with the power-part connected directly to emc/parport?
just saw it
PasstScho: yes -- for instance, one of the 4-phase outputs is suitable for controlling a traditional unipolar stepper motor in half-step mode.
here's a board which can control 2 axes of unipolar stepper motor (the chips are ULN2803): http://axis.unpy.net/files/etchcnc/etch-schematic.png
yeah, i know how those work
i just wanted to know if i am right, but i read it on the next page ;)
i often read 10-50khz as a maximum for step generators and stuff
isn't it possible to go faster than 50khz with a good computer?
PasstScho: not really
the parport is connected to the ISA bus (even if your PC doesn't have ISA slots), and an outb (to change the state of the port) takes about 1 microsecond
just go home at 3am this morning
moving motors faster would only be possible via +-10V interface or similar, ok :-/
PasstScho: there are hardware pulse generators
there is one from Jon Elson called PPMC iirc
a step-multiplier pin that is set by stepgen/freqgen when steps should be interpreted as x2 x4 or x8 steps would be nice
[12:50:43] <alex_joni> http://jelinux.pico-systems.com/motion.html
Universal Stepper Controller might be what you need
there are also other alternatives out there..
ok, i'll have a look
jepler: seen you've been busy with the 64bit stuff
alex_joni: yeah a bit
for my own machine everything's working now
what kernel did you use?
oh, and no issues?
it seems to work pretty well
could someone tell me where axis.<...>.jog-<...> is documented?
PasstScho: what do you want to do?
i'd like to connect a jog wheel, using stepsize, shown in axis
[12:56:14] <jepler> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/config/emc2hal/index.html
axis.N.jog-counts IN s32
Connect to the ``counts'' pin of an external encoder to use a physical jog wheel.
this file has an example of a jog wheel connected to the parallel port: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/configs/max/jogwheel.hal?rev=188.8.131.52
"net" is like linkps/linksp?
PasstScho: yes, it's a combination of "newsig" and "linkXX"
net jogA parport.0.pin-10-in => encoder.1.phase-A
so this creates a new signal "jogA", and links both named pins to it
(you can also use "net" on a signal that already exists; this adds additional pins to the net)
how do i find out which signal is connected in the axis gui with the X,Y,Z Checkboxes and the Value in the combobox?
net jogX axisui.jog.x => axis.0.jog-enable
the pin axisui.jog.x is true when the x axis is selected in the AXIS GUI
ah axisgui ... :) cool
the jog increment and speed are not exported as HAL pins
in that hal file I showed above, the increment per jogwheel pulse is set to a hardcoded value
i found a jog.hal where everything works with buttons and stuff
seems to be quite useful
[13:07:17] <PasstScho> http://www.anderswallin.net/2006/11/jogging-emc2/
awallin is around on irc sometimes, too
[13:19:01] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwZD59Ic9T8&feature=dir
Maximum number of CPUs (2-256) Please enter a decimal value. Fractions will not be accepted.
gee, why aren't fractions accepted?
does axisui get loaded before or after the halfiles in stepper_mm are executed?
hrhr ok... then my jog can't work :D
POSTGUI_HALFILE = jogwheel.hal
put this in your [HAL] section, instead of HALFILE = jogwheel.hal
ah ok, thanks
this is mentioned in http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/gui/axis/
section "Physical Jog Wheels" (near the bottom)
jepler: I wondet that too.. if you have some celeron processors, those surely count as fractionals :D
JymmmEMC, actually, cable ties and or wax string wold have made it worse .. it would look neater, but the crosstalk between all those unshielded cables woudl have been crap
ooh, $friend just bought a "Beaver mill" ... 12 station ATC, fanuc control ... 20hp DC spindle ...
now emc is set up right :)
and if the electronics of my wheel would work, i could move the steppers with my jog ;)
I have a 1phase motor on my mill which is reversible, there is a large capacitor on it. Is this really a 3phase motor that I can rewire so it can be controlled by a vfd?
The_Ball_ probably not
a three phase motor has 3 sets of windings phased 120 degrees apart
most single phase motors have one main winding, and a start winding phased 90 degrees from it, and fed thru the cap
jmkasunich, ah, is that how it works
jmkasunich, is there 1phase vfd's?
not that I've seen
the problem is that there are lots of different single phase motor arrangements
some leave the start winding connected all the time, some switch it out with a centrifigual switch
some have a cap in series with it, some just wind it such that it has high inductance to get the needed phase shift
some have two caps, one for starting, that gets disconnect by a centrifugal switch, and another for running that stays in the circuit
in theory you could hook a single phase motor to two terminals of a three phase drive
in practice, that doesn't work all that well (we did it at work for a drill press in our model shop)
the centrifugal switch caused enough of a transient when it switched to make the drive trip out
and the motor had really crappy torque at low speed
i guess if the vfd is for a 3phase 2hp motor you would load one phase a lot more than it was designed for
Plus 3 phase motors are really cheap.
if i can find one
I don't think we have ever paid for one :)
you have good friends, hehe
the company I work for throws out 3 phase motors all the time.
btw, are all 1-17 pins on the parallel port bi-directional and usable?
not all are bi directional
seems only pin 2-9 are bi-directional
emc supports 3 parport modes: "out", "in" and "x". the manual shows which pins are inputs and which are outputs for each of those.
of those modes, "out" seems to be the only one that works on all parports
"in" works on the vast majority of parport
"x" is trickier
"out" gives you 12 outputs and 5 inputs IIRC
yep, "x" certainly works on the fewest ports
"in" gives you 13 in and 4 out I think
and "x" gives you 9 and 8 (or 8 and 9), or ?
in theory there may also be a mode "y" with all pins as inputs
('x' is a modified version of 'out'; 'y' would be a modified version of 'in')
(but nobody's written "y mode" yet)
jepler, in http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Realtime_on_64_bit_systems
, is the kernel version 184.108.40.206 or 2.6.20.xx ?
acemi: oops I'll go and make sure I wrote the right number
thank you for catching my mistake
[15:59:56] <Unit41> http://rapidshare.com/files/34838362/PlasmaHead.tar.gz.html
PasstScho: Are you at the kbd?
Hi! I read meanwhile three times the integrator's Handbook. This is a detailled view into the HAL and all basic stuff, but not really some kind of milling software description. Did I understand something wrong?
I thought that EMC is a full milling software?
you feed emc with your G-Code and it will drive your machine
so i'd call it a full milling software
maybe you still want some 3d-file -> g-code converter?
Aha - So this is no "all-in
what is "all" for you?
Oh - let me explain. I would like to take some output file of usual programs (i.e. AutoCAD PLT file), load it into a GUI which allows me to control the mill (i.e. set origin), and finally run the milling job.
i don't know the PLT format, is it already a G-Code like file?
I have not very much experience. I borrowed a CNC mill from a friend who runs it on WinXP with WinPCNC. Not very funny, but it works.
No. PLT is a plotter file output (2D).
ok, i guess it is almost like G-Code
so emc is exactly what you are looking for
Pen-Up, Pen-down, moveto, drawto...
are you trying to use emc to run a plotter?
maybe you need a plt -> g-code converter, i am not sure
but emc should be what you are looking for
cradek: No. I want to run a CNC mill with data created from AutoCAD (and AutoCAD doesn't know about CNC. So I manually have to set the depth (Z-Axis).
PasstScho: Where do I find such converter?
hm, better ask someone else, i never needed one
[16:41:41] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Cam
maybe emc even has a plt support
as xanpipe says, output meant for a plotter is not enough information to machine a part
you need to translate it to gcode, either by hand, or with another software. this class of software is called "cam"
what cam software is appropriate depends on your task
sometimes, none are appropriate (or, they are proprietary and expensive)
Well, on my friend's mill it is really complicated (running WinXP). First I load the PLT file with a BOcnc program. This allows me to define tools (diameters) and to say if the tool shall move left or right of the "plotter-line". This is then saved into another PLT file and loaded into WinPCNC. There I can say how deep the tool shall dive in and how often it shall repeat every "stroke" by ...
...adding a little more in Z-Axis. That's it.
so you were cutting 2.5D parts
Yes. This is what I primarily will do.
if you have Autocad, check out REALIZE then
you can draw tool paths in Autocad and directly export them as gcode
did you see the link I pasted above?
REALIZE works by using Autocad's 3D capability which is lost as soon as you use plot output, since plots are flat
Yes. But it's no fun to draw in 3D with AutoCAD.
As I said, mostly I will use the mill for graving front sides of boxes, cutting out PCB boards, and so. So I draw flat on different layers and assign currently each layer a tool and hereby a milling depth.
Well, I am willing to make it possibly better. REALIZE is a free soft, or payware?
why don't you follow the link and look?
[16:51:18] <jmkasunich> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Cam
I just opened it.
REALIZE works great for 2.5D work like you describe. If it doesn't work exactly how you want, you can change it
I'll read it. Does it automatically offset the radius of the tool?
no, but autocad's offset command works well for that
or, you could use cutter radius compensation in emc2, but that would require substantial hand editing of the gcode
Oops - I just saw that R14 and newer has a quirks with polylines? I use R14... What is meant with "Heavy" representation?
"... using the autocad CONVERTPOLY function."
"heavy" vs "light" is just an autocad quirk, and they let you convert between them
It's extremely long ago that I configured AutoCAD. Actually it ended with v2.6. How do I install REALIZE into it?
Where must I copy the .lsp file to?
I'm not sure - I think that depends on the version
on mine, I think it can be anywhere, and then you can load it using the menu somewhere
there's also a startup lisp file (somewhere) and in there you can put something like (load "C:\\whatever\\realize.lsp")
at least that's how mine (R12/dos) works I think
Ok, this will be a solvable problem, I guess. ;)
yeah, just check your autocad manual
Do you really use this stepper driver board?
[17:05:38] <xantipe> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc/stepper-drivers
cradek: Your clocks look great!
sure I use it
without burning your steppers if they don't move?
that's a breakout board
Ah... Yes. Now it is clear. I made a board with 3 ICs, each one has two full-bridges, clamp diodes, chopper,... inside, so all I need to attach is a 2-Bit signal (1-Bit for every stepper coil). Kepps constant 0.7A. Is this usable?
Connects to parallel port.
emc2 can generate a whole bunch of step outputs, one is surely suitable
there are plots/diagrams of all the choices in the users guide
not sure but it sounds like maybe you want quadrature
If I understood right, I'll have to use steptype=2?
xantipe: - Have you looked at ACE converter?
xantipe: there are 14 or 15 different possibilities for step outputs from EMC
is freeware from the makers of TCNC
every one is documented in the HAL and EMC manuals
look at the waveforms listed in the manual and pick the right one for your drives
will allow g-code from autocad DXF
[17:16:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> http://www.dakeng.com/ace.html
Skullworks-PGAB: This is a separate program? (Oh, I'll look at the link.)
manual page http://www.dakeng.com/man/ace.html
Skullworks-PGAB: Interesting thing! If I understand right, I tell it the wanted (total) cutting depth and how much it shall change Z/pass, and it automatically repeats until the depth is reached?
I have full cad/cam so I don't use it - but many people with cnc routers like it
also its great for doing engraving.
What are you using?
SolidWorks and Bobcad/cam
Windows or Linux?
the old DOS version of Bobcad gets more use than the new Winbloz version.
Solidworks is Win based
Is this freeware or not? (DOS seems to be usable in Linux, too?)
and for much of the CAD I use the straight DOS version12 of Bobcad (circa 1993)
SolidWorks and Bobcad are commercial
ACE is freeware
there is also Gcam - freeware under linux
Would like to find a 100% AutoCAD replacement on Linux.
REALIZE is free (as in freedom) software. I don't think any of these others are
xantipe: the only thing close is qcad, and it's not too great
I know. It is a nightmare. And LinuxCAD... Wahh...
I bought a license for LinuxCAD... I could bite into my ass...
easycad is a very nice non-Free alternative to Autocad, currently windows only, but the next version will support linux
the next version has been coming out "any time now" for a couple years though
Totally different to AutoCAD?
Until enough people get behind a major open source CAD effort there won't likely be a free version - let alone one with CAM output
xantipe: if you're experienced with cad, maybe the qcad folks could use your help improving it
easycad is similar to autocad - I haven't used autocad in many years
I've been tempted to work on it, but I'm usually pretty busy with emc
the author of easycad is Mike Riddle, one of the original Autocad authors
That sounds promising.
AutoCAD is the only one I know which _really_ works...
I really like it - its the only windows app I use
you can try it for free, costs a few hundred $ to buy
Do you have a link to it?
cadcam is the only eason I keep windows boxes up and running
I also have only Linux in my office.
most the apps are ported from linux that I use
... and vmplayer.
fastcad looks really good! :D What is your extimation for the first Linux version.
* Skullworks-PGAB is not holding his breath.
Will ask them... ;D
maybe you can offer to help beta or alpha test it.
I think they have a long list of willing and eager beta testers already
mriddle: The start of the public beta is currently scheduled for 1 June 07, and will be open to all licensed FastCAD/EasyCAD users.
of course, last year it was targeted for april of this year, so...
jmkasunich: Do you think that this fastcad will work in WINE, too?
smarter to work on Free software than volunteer your time to some company
the last time I messed with wine was when I was first getting into linux (redhat days) and it gave me fits
I use easycad on a vmware virtual machine running windows 95 ;-)
Well, my overall experience is to normally stay far, far away from WINE. It works not very well.
cradek: I have no intention of volunteering my time, I just want to be able to use the program
Oh, yes, vmplayer is an idea, but then I can also stay at AutoCad?
if you already have autocad and are happy with it
jmkasunich: in response to "offer to help beta or alpha test it"
easycad is $295, add another zero for autocad I think, so if you don't already have autocad.....
Well, I don't know something different...
mriddle referring to M$'s breaking of old style help files: The thing that gets me is that this whole change was really unnecessary (WinHlp32 works fine under Vistacky, but MS says that it's illegal to use it
"Vistacky", I like it
autocad 2008: $4k
I have an option to buy a damaged 3-axes mill. Electronics totally dead. An IS600, if I heared right. Is this a good hardware? Would replace the electronics by self built one and want to run it with EMC. Good idea? Is this worth ~1000 Euro?
Euro is roughly USD.
no idea what an IS600 is
Looks similar to this ones: http://www.gravograph.com/Deutsch/Graviermaschinen/--220bersicht.php
which one - there are about 8 machines on that page
[17:54:39] <cradek> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300116914849
:D -- Cheap!
wonder if it has a dongle though - that would be a pain if using a VM
There are ways to get it working without dongles? ;D
sure could be
jmkasunich: iirc CHT help files CAN be converted to good old fashion html
jmkasunich: I haven't seen the mill until now. must look like a IS6000 because it cas 60mm movement in Z-Axis and ~300x250mm working area.
Or does somebody know where I can get very cheap a good milling mechanics?
we all had a cheap and good mill if we knew ;)
Well, BZT in Germany offers a mill with controller for ~2300 Euro.
cheap and good? hmm, 2300 is not cheap ... and good? erm hehe
Too much for me. I plan to build it by myself (costs ~800...1000 Euro) or to buy the damaged one which has 0.015mm resolution.
you have the machines to build one yourself?
xantipe: you mean thebroken mill for ~$1000 Euro + new electronics for another ~$1000 Euro?
No. I mean the broken mill for 1000 Euro plus the free EMC plus the already built Stepper board (3 axes) for ~50 Euro.
xantipe: what stepper board?
geez -- parport.0.pin-01-in stops working (along with the other three mode x control input pins) when my standard_pinout.hal includes the line "addf parport.0.write base-thread -1" -- how do I fix this?
Self built. 1 IC which has everything inside, except the current sensing resistors. Some TCAxxxx, I don't have it at hands at the moment. Allows 0.75A.
since they are OC you have to turn those bits "on" (set -01-out on) - you probably aren't doing that
but 0.75A steppers aren't much...
xantipe: Does it have mid-band compensation?
i mean they can't really drive a mill
do you already have stepper motors?
At the moment I play with FDD steppers (from 5,25" floppies).
how many Nm?
<= 0.5 i guess...?
Not very much. But I can use a gear before the leading-screw?
you could, but the cnc gets slower and slower...
Well L297/298 is really expensive!
those motors can't turn fast
cradek: does the order that I issue the setp inside the .hal file matter?
and when you put a gear before the screw... you'll really need time
xantipe: In that gravigraph page, which one were you referring to?
xantipe: L297 + L298 cost around 6
Oh, I got up to 1500 Steps/second with immediate stop (under critical speed).
1500 Steps/second with load?
PasstScho: Yes. What's the price? 6 Euro?
xantipe: On that gravograph page, which one were you referring to?
L298 costs 3 and L297 costs 3 where i buy my parts
cradek: heh, nvm, thanks. works fine now.
PasstScho: Where do you buy?
Hmm. RS-Components ist teurer.
L 298 - 2,75
L297 - 3,10
L297/298 are for direction+step?
emc would even support just a L298, but then you wouldn't have a current-limiting
I'll take this if the TCAxxxx is too weak.
xantipe: On that gravograph page, which one were you referring to?
if you want to build a very tiny machine, it would work with your motors and electronic...
Some IS600. It is not there (old model). Should look like an IS6000? Didn't see it yet.
but when it gets a bit bigger, you'll see the limit...
I know. But mostly I will do filigrane work on bigger parts. And because the spindle is a little Proxxon hand drill, I will not be able to use much more than ø2mm...
And working on plastic and GFK should not need too much force...
feedrate will be a big problem
i build my first cnc as cheap as possible too... and i tell you
slow feedrate is annoying as hell
Let's see. I broke two "Fräser" ø0.7mm because I was too fast...
What's "Fräser" in english?
xantipe: If I'm reading this right the accurancy is 0.2mm, I think you would want mid0band compensation and something like at least 3A per phase for your motors.
or your main-spindle didn't turn fast enought? :P
xantipe: tool maybe
i bought some cheap motors with 0,8Nm
motors where really cheap - bad thing is: they needed 4A ;)
it worked with L297/L6203 combination, but it was horrible ;)
Ok, it was nice to talk to you. You gave me a lot of very useful information until now, now I will wait if I will get the mill (if it is available at all). If not, everything changes. If yes, I will see if the steppers on it work and what they need.
PasstScho: What is your profession? You appear to be very well with electronics?
xantipe: Do you know what mid-band comensation is?
anonimas1 is now known as anonimas
anonimas is now known as anonimasu
xantipe: hang on I 'll get a link
i waiting to end of summer to be able to start studiing....
JymmmEMC: did you get geckos yet?
i just finished civil service
xantipe: Read this http://www.geckodrive.com/photos/Step_motor_basics.pdf
anonimasu: No, still working on getting all the other parts I need (relays, switches, case, breakout, etc)
JymmmEMC: Thanks, I'll read it carefully.
anonimasu: The case I want to use is just a lil too small =(
anonimasu: I'm thinking about getting/using the PDMX brakout board, it has a charge pump built in.
JymmmEMC: just a bit curious why you start with a breakout borad..
anonimasu: I need to mount everything in a case eventually, so I'm trying to find a case and make sure everything I need will fit/mount in it. What I havne't had all this time is spindle control, and I want to have that this time around as well as REAL ESTOP.
Gecko 203V "Vampire" drive - sucks the green right out of your wallet.
but I guess its worth it.
Skullworks-PGAB: Yeah an extra $120
built in fuses, built in cap
Skullworks-PGAB: No, an extra $120 as oppose to 3 201
$40 * 3 = $120
your talking price diff - I'm talking total price
inc tax and shipping
btw: estop should turn off logic power (if not using emc) right?
turn off motor power
but if encoders are on a seperate circuit you don't hae to loose position due to an /e-stop
anonimasu: I just wanted to have everything ready to wire in the geckos is all. The breakout board could wait, but if I know I'm going to use it eventually, might as well add it to the wiring harness.
and does someone know how big the caps in a (1-phase input) vfd are for 1kW?
do they follow the rule 1000µ for 1A?
Skullworks-PGAB: Note I said REAL ESTOP, Not just booboo ESTOP
the old Hurco I ran had like 6 powersupplies
mine will have too maybe ;)
JymmmEMC: Ok, I browsed now through the file. Most of that I knew. And what do you mean now with "mid-band compensation"?
xantipe: pg 4 of that PDF
E-stop killed the spindle, servos, coolant pumps, and tripped a spindle break. - But the encoders were still powered so machine knew where it was once E-stop was released.
killed spidle & servos means just power off or breaks on?
Skullworks-PGAB: I guess that's ok.
(and power off)
When you dump the servo power (crowbar) you get some drift movement as the holding force is removed.
PasstScho: I'd suspect a timer relay to engage the brakes momentarily, then remove power
PasstScho: from what I gather the brakes get engaged when they lose power
so even if everything fails your servos/axes wont move.. without power
spindle brake in this case was a pnumatic cylinder which worked a drum brake - a dual action solenoide valve controlled it.
JymmmEMC: Did I understand right that - in case that I accerate above a specific speed I cannot stop from one step to the other? That I knew.
xantipe: Basically.... *ALL* stepper motors can stall. If the driver you use has mid-band comensation, you can resolve that issue.
when estop removes the power from the servo-drives, the caps are still loaded which might give enought energy for 0.2 - 1 second :-/
xantipe: My machne has a travel of 24" and I'm using a Xylotex board. For 24+ months I've had issues with random, unrepeatable stalling. We HIHGLY suspect it's do to mid-band stalling.
PasstScho: the drives are disconnected.. from the power supply(where the caps should be)
JymmmEMC: Does L287/298 have this compensation?
anonimasu: then i would have to disconect a DC 325V & 2-8A wire... afaik a relais couldn't do that
xantipe: No, not at all.
PasstScho: afaik they can..
xantipe: The only drives I've seen so far that does is the geckos and the Parker compumotor OEM750's.
PasstScho: that's some tiny voltages and stuff..
So I must keep below this critical speed to have no step-skipping?
afaik 325V and some A do strike huge sparks
PasstScho: I contactor could.
Passt: thats why you need a dump circuit - remove power and switch in a hi load
ah 325.. I read that as 35..
xantipe: It's not speed, it's phase
a halogen lamp bulb works well as a load resistor.
And _how_ do I compensate that now?
heh, or a real power dump circuit..
contactor <== DC?
E-stop - FLASH!
what does NM^3/hr mean in gas flow terms?
that's a scary thing..
that cu m per hour at "normal" pressure
hm, a 1kW Halogen lamp hmmm ;)
JymmmEMC: as far as I can see, the stepper driver of the BZT mill also only uses L297/298 and it works fine?
xantipe: L297/L298 works fine, if you don't use crappy motors
stay in the safe speed/load range and it works fine
but a lot people want to get every mm/sec out of their steppers...
That was what I planned to do. ;)
heh, forget about not having midband compensation :D
it does help very very much
xantipe: I'm only telling you what I've been going through for the last 24+ months because I wanted to go the cheap route. You will have to decide whats best for you.
PasstScho, you mean don't run the stepper too fast. stay well below the poitn where the torque drops off right?
and at the same time dont spin them too slow
PasstScho, with respect, you are so entirely wrong, I can't even begin to explain
gear adequately for the top speed and the torque you want :)
Now you are confusing me totally... :D
i'd like to hear that explaintation
PasstScho, well, steppers need to spin ... OK PasstScho some simple questions and hopefully the answers will help you ;)
that question was simple :)
so .. power output from a motor, any motor is rpm x torque right?
REAL E-STOP Circuit http://www.zshare.net/download/2116897cfc4684/
OK, well ... either accept that or start a new branch of physics, your call
robin - steppers have MAX torque while stationary
Skullworks-PGAB, yes, wait one moment
as the speed goes up torque drops off
[18:52:54] <JymmmEMC> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=167950&postcount=30
OK, no shit
Skullworks-PGAB, wait one
servos are opsit
JymmmEMC: nice, ty
PasstScho, so, at zero rpm, the stpper has most torque OK?
and due to current limiting in the drive that torque is constant until a particualr RPM
xantipe: If you want to try and incorporate your own mid-band compensation this is what I've foudn so far.... http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24699
yeah, we already know that
PasstScho, so .. at zero RPM, the power output of the motor is?
(20:57:43) (robin_sz) so .. power output from a motor, any motor is rpm x torque right?
(20:58:02) (PasstScho) nope
robin_sz: please continue..
didn't you want to show me why noone shouldn't need to stop turning faster when the torque drops?
so we begin to increase the rpm ...
the power output goes up ...
infact it reaches a maximum ...
anonimasu: I'm thinking of doing something like this, but purrrty wiring... http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/CNC/CNC-Controller/02-Overall.jpg
that maximum power output is at the RPM where the torque begins to drop off
say, 1000 rpm
ok it looks kind of scary
anonimasu: Not any worse than what sherline does... http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Workshop/pmb_sherline_cnc_sys3_controller_inside_bottom.jpg
I bought this big metal box for all my stuff :)
anonimasu: I did too, but it aint big enough =(
if you look on the torque curve for your motor ... you'll notice it produces half the torque at 2000 rpm that it does at 1000 rpm OK?
Never would connect steppers directly to a card plugged into a PC...
PasstScho, so the power output at 2000 rpm compared to 1000 rpm will be?
xantipe: geckos are optoisolated.
anonimasu: NICE box too, built in fan, carry handle, even has four 8ohm 100W WW resistors built in
teflon wiring, an 120VAC outlet in from with pilot light,
PasstScho, hint: the torque has gone down to half, the rpm has doubled ... so torque x rpm will S--Y -H- S-ME
anonimasu: 1.8M WTF?!
fill in the letters :)
PasstScho, got that?
anonimasu: I don't want to have to have a forklift to move this SOB =)
robin_sz: could you do that in german pls ;)
JymmmEMC: it's not over 20 kg..
OK, the power out put will stay the same
yeah, that is what i already said
robin_sz: i am still waiting for hearing something new that i never heard before... i just said he shouldn't overdo with speeds of steppers
some try to get faster and faster...
indeed, thats the correct thing to do
and when they use a tool that is a bit bigger or come to a crew-position where they need more force, they loose steps...
unless you spin to at least the point where the torque drops you will not have maximum power availabel from the motor
no no no
you have a machine with a ballscrew
bad example :-/
its driven by a stepper
who uses ballscrews and cheap steppers? ;)
PasstScho: several people do
robin: So you say what I expected to do: As long as I stay below that rpms where the torque goes down, I named this under-critical speed, I can stop from one step to the next, otherwise I will loose steps or must slowly speed down first below this critical speed. right?
xantipe, no, the opposite
robin_sz: opposite would be - let the torque fall....
PasstScho: who uses ballscrews and cheap steppers? <<< Too many people do!
PasstScho, so ... the machine does say, 3m/min on its maximum move
PasstScho, and you put a bigger tool in and it stalls ok?
PasstScho, so, I come along and gear the motor down 4:1
[19:07:16] <anonimasu> http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Workshop/pmb_sherline_cnc_sys3_controller_inside_bottom.jpg
at low speeds the force availbe will now be ?
4 times what it was before
then it will stall at 0,75 m/min
the same at the same speed at the motor output shaft ;)
because ... the load presented to the motor is now 1/4 of what it was before
and 4 times the torque after gearing.
so .. it will spin to 4 times the speed before it hits that stall point
so what happens at 3m/min?
so the stall point remains the same
but you have 4 times the force available in your machining range
that really is something i didn't think about before
this is the basic mistake newbie machine builders with steppers make, not getting the motors to spin
Ahh - I see a slight shine at the horizont...
and 1/4 the max speed.. unless ofcourse the gain of the gearing gives you enough power to reach the speed you want..
to sooner you hit the torque drop off point, the sooner you are into the constant power region
obviously, there are compromises
but ... if yu can arrange to be at roughly that point at your most useful cutting speed, its not a bad plan
go and ask Mariss about it on the gecko forum :)
robin: hitting the torque drop point means exceeding it?
xantipe, sure ...
So you actually always run the stepper in a range where it already looses torque?
i just wanted to say, don't let torque fall too low... or you'll loose steps - and THAT CAN'T be wrong!
xantipe, but remember, by sticking a 4:1 gear box on, you'll do more revs, but have the same effective torque at max speed
(L297/L298 of course...)
That's exactly what I think
PasstScho, it is wrong, these people need to gear to let the motor spin
robin_sz: but like in the example it stalls at 3m/min again...
PasstScho, if they are losing steps, they are loading the motor too high, they need to make it spin more and get into the constant power region
PasstScho, sure thats always going to stayt the smae, direct drive, , 2:1, 3:1: 10:1 gearing
and that is what i want to say: a lot of people load the motor too high!!!!!!!!!!
robin: So you run the steppers in constant current mode?
PasstScho, thats the point on a machine where the power output of the motor eqauls the frictiaonl losses af the bed at speed
they don't know the limit and how many Nm their steppers do at which rpm
xantipe, to get maximum performance out of them yes
PasstScho, say your motor can produce 400W ... at 1000rpm ...
so they just try and try... and suddenly if they change a small bit they start loosing steps and crying begins ;)
This is automatically done if you use a high voltage (~50V) and a chopper for current-limitation?
xantipe, liek geckos ;)
Ok, so I already do it the right way...
PasstScho, if you find it stalls at say 500 rpm ...
My TCAxxxx IC has a built in chopper for that...
PasstScho, and you gear the wrong way .. ie gear so the motr spins more slowly ...
robin_sz: people will then do 495 rpm...
make 100 peaces of whatever
Sapote_reloaded is now known as Sapote
you are then putting more load .. it will probably stall at 250 rpm
you need to let steppers spin. thats the basic thing
yep, but who know when they loose steps? cheap steppers don't tell you
neither does expensive ones...
thats the troupble with steppers .. you dont know when you lose steps
PasstScho: What robin wants to say is: The gear must ensure to not have a higher torque at the stepper as it can give...
so people wonder why they suddenly loose steps
so let em spin fast, more torqu at the workpiece
OK, lecture over :)
robin_sz: xantipe wants to use 5" floppy steppers for his mill...
PasstScho, ahh. mistake :)
that is why i said he shouldn't expect too much
xantipe, they will be crap
and he should stay in a safe rpm range!
Hey! I don't use them for the mill, I play around with them at the moment!
xantipe, stepper technology has come a LONG way ...
PasstScho, no he should still spin them
robin_sz: you think he will have a gear?
depends on the ballscrew etc
ballscrew? hmmm :>
Yes, if the steppers turn high and I gear them down, this will be helpful. ;)
needs to hit the "corner frequency" at his useful milling speed
xantipe: pls tell us a bit about your machine
But this is valid for _all_ motors...
exactly that all steppers
i have 6Nm steppers... i wouldn't have to gear em down ;)
but that is another story
your parts will be jagged..
you need to gear down..
1.8 deg per step.. ;) that makes nice blocky circles..
or whatever your deg's are..
µsteps ;) - but anyway i won't use those steppers
I don't have one built , I plan to build one. I plan to use normal leading-screws. As steppers I plan to use the named floppy steppers with a 1:7...1:9 gear for first tests. If this is too slow, I will buy stronger steppers and turn the spindles directly.
i prefer servos
Besides: Can EMC use spinup/spindown ramps?
Is my plan so bad?
it can limit acceleration
Well, so I can also use this feature for turning faster that the critical speed (where I cannot stop immediately without loosing steps), i.e. for fast moves without using the tool.
yep, you can
During milling, I can only work slowly, because the tool will get damages otherwise, and then I have full torque...
Do have trapezoid spindles have very high friction?
i would say high friction
normal Mxx spindles have very high ;)
tr spindles are ok for low cost mills
problem you might have to fight with is backlash
My first idea was to use Mxx spindles, but they also have too much dead way. ball spindles are really expensive. So I got finally to TR ones?
Ah, backlash is the right word...
i don't like TRs, but you'll have to use em when you want it cheap
you could use toothed belt
I thought about a thin steel rope + hoist + wheel
what kind of wheel?
... but I was afraid about resonant oscillations.
A simple silver steel ø16mm.
i would prefer tooth belts ;)
Used as a drum.
Dont they also tend to oscillations?
does anyone have photos of geckos, specifically the back side of them?
there's a drawing on the gecko site somewhere
xantipe: i don't know much about the use of long tooth-belts, but when preload force is hi enought, it shouldn't be such a problem
anonimasu: good luck actually finding anything up there =)
like in the manual...
anonimasu: Ok, found one in the 201. Manual might be a smart guy, but his documentation really sucks =)
If the damaged IS600 will not become available or not look as I expect, I will return to self building. Let's see...
anonimasu: Why did you think/feel getting a breakout board (at this stage) was in question?
JymmmEMC: because I thought you were interested in making parts..
anonimasu: I am, of course. Are you thinking a DB25 to terminal strip breakout board? Casue I'm considering one of these http://www.pmdx.com/PMDX-122/index.html
as it has the charge pump ciruit on it
I werent thinking..
anonimasu: Heh, what WERE you think of?
JymmmEMC: just that you seem to be putting effort everywhere except actually getting your machine to make parts..
anonimasu: When I built the controller I have now, I did Q&D. Leaving out a lot of things I should of added. Since I'm basically starting from scratch again, I want to do it right. If it's not done now, it will never get done (such is life).
anonimasu: If I start a job and walk away, the job can complete and the spindle keeps going as there is no spindle control. I'd rather spend my time better than looking around the corner to see if it's done every five minutes.
JymmmEMC: or maybe you should run the first run attended..
anonimasu: I do, I like watching it run =) But If a job takes 70 minutes, I don't need to stand there watching it either.
JymmmEMC: 70 minutes?
thats like nothing
anonimasu: and your point is?
whine when you have 70 hour jobs..
anonimasu: Well, I still don't have spindle control either way as it stands now.
and no REAL ESTOP either
You know what a PITA it is to find a 14/3 power cable. eeeeesh (finally found one at mouser)
Something just don't look right about this PCB (it looks like it's bowing to me) http://www.pmdx.com/PMDX-131/PMDX131c.jpg
the PCB is flat, but the right hand cap is tilted up a little
Jym - did you get that 14/3 cable yet?
what's with the "real estop" caplocks?
[20:02:41] <robin_sz> http://www.quacky.co.uk/~robin/beaver.jpg
robin_sz: is that where you log into IRC from?
nope, thats one of my servers in London
nice machine huh?
20hp DC spindle ...
loads of torque at low revs
18 station ATC :)
bit dirty, but it was cheap enough ... this is my mates latest project
was going to retrofit it, but it has a nice siemens sinumerik control on it
DC spindle? or BLDC?
hmmmmmm, sinumerik... i heard of a lot of probs with siemens devices (not only cncs)
the siemens cnc i know sometimes does little hops after homing...
mm ... no, brushed I think
not sure though,
whatever, its a very solid machine
Skullworks-PGAB: No, found it at mouser, but I have other parts I have to add to the order.
what did it cost?
robin_sz: brushless dc motors... very similar to ac afaik
maddash: Simply put, "E-STOP" as most call/use it as is just a quick way of stopping the machine, Not necessarily an EMERGENCY STOP for purposes of life-safety.
i've never seen an dc motor with 20hp... bldc motors with 20hp can be very small
bldc? you mean steppers?
brushless dc motors
the M&M spinner I run at work has a 30hp brushed DC motor
some sort of self-commutating AC servo sort of thing I think
I think its brushed, but not sure
looks like a huge stepper motor - square
difference between ac and bldc isn't too big... maybe the main difference is the electrinoc
tachio feedback and controls the field coils
Skullworks-PGAB: how huge? its it much larger than a ac motor with 20hp?
Skullworks-PGAB: oppps http://www.mouser.com/catalog/630/891.pdf
maybe alittle - its about 15 yrs old - made in Germany
hehe almost like me ;)
machine was made in Holland
15yr old dutch?
19 year german :P
all the system programs are written in dutch
may as well be greek to me
Skullworks-PGAB, is it covered in oil?
Skullworks-PGAB: $17 if you want shielded
I was surprised to see that mouser has din rails cheap too
no - it has a shade pole blower that runs continously blowing thru the motor away from the brushes so the carbon comes out the vents
I'll shot a pic of it
of your 15yr old dutch thing, well oiled?
Its the largest machine in the complex - and the noisest
* robin_sz searches the internet for "dutch teen"
gearbox might be
robin_sz: try amsterdam instead
machine runs dry since you need the heat to form the metal
JymmmEMC, oneof my welders went ther last weekend
robin_sz: Yeah, I remember =)
Question.... do cap cpalmps really hold THAT well?
I bet he does too :)
I'm spin forming 100mm dia tube - 16mm wall down to 34mm
robin_sz: has he been to the free clinic yet? LOL
JymmmEMC, nah, always wear a raincoat :)
robin_sz: clmaps for holding big capacitors to chassis
.me need cap clamps and caps to put in them
yeah, they do
BUT ... DO NOT overtighten them
and put a wrap of insulating material around the cap
robin_sz: will rubber/foam gasket help grip/hold ?
shorted caps can get exciting
eg glassfibre tape
dont let the clamp puncture the outer cover of the cap
I just to make sure they don't jar/wiggle loose is all.
they do work well, yes
Skullworks-PGAB: what caps do you need and where are you?
<== those caps?
ah, now i know what he means
[20:37:11] <maddash> http://paste.uni.cc/16053
<--- shouldn't sending estop cause the 'emccmdwait' call to return with RCS_ERROR (and thus terminate the child thread)?
PasstScho, the small one will mount OK in a vertical mount
PasstScho, the big one will need a horizontal mount
you mean because of the size? or something else?
bit big ...
yep, i think so too
but shouldn't be a prob
wonder what they are for ... huge DC psu?
Damn... I have 2.25" panduit already... might be too big for inside a PC case.
for servo motors
yeah? how many amps?
those are AC motors
* robin_sz stares at the capacitors again
2,5A @ 115V
so .. 130v caps?
the big cap is 400V 5mF and the smaller one is 350V 6mF
couldnt get 130v ones?
the servo-drive gets fed with 325V dc
-> +-115V output
If I drop off - something got hit by lightening...
so 115v at 2.5 amps RMS
so 325v at ~1.2 amps input
no less ... (115/325) * 2.5
it is a three phase motor with 400W
325v at .9A input
seems a big capacitor for .9A ...
still there you go
115V @ 2.5A output ...
325v at .9A input
assuming the drives are efficient
115V 3-ühase AC
and i have three servos of em
+ main spindle...
so 3A total for the servos
how do you come to that value?
+ however many amps of 325v the spindle needs
by a process we call "simple mathematics"
400W / 325V = ?
it is an AC motor
3 x 1.23A = ?
simple mathematics --> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EulerFormula.html
I dont care if its a DC balanced rhomium cored induction plasma crystal motor, 400W is still 400W
400W motor <3p ac > drive < dc input
but 1.23 A arent 1.23 A
so ... you are satill using this alternative branch of physics to the rest of us then?
and when i say my drive gets 325V, that doesn't mean the coils get 325 V
PasstScho: 1.23A at 16V is still 19.68W
cuz it is an 115V motor... the drive divides it into +/- 115V AC
like a vfd
That dosent make any damn difference..
will nbeed 1.23A of DC input to the drive 9assuming its efficient)
it can be 2 phase 40V
3 pahse 500V
or 7 phase 234040v
no one cares
dc in ... 400W out of motor
something happens in between
no one cares
say 1.5A for safety
one watt is always one watt..
it is like a +115V -115V supply...
no one cares
and the drive uses PWM
400W motor .. 1.23A @325V DC input (assuming drive is efficient)
say 1.5A to be sure
yeah, i know... that is why i am confused now ;)
i calculated with the value, my drive has to produce when i am not totally confused now
simple moths and physics
PasstScho, do you visit cnczone?
if the motor lol
nope, i don't
ok, just checking ...
thats a common source of confusion
i calculated with the current, the vfd-output stage has to handle
so .. a 4.5A supply will be more than enough
never really thought about the DC-input value
a 4.5A supply will allow you to tun all your motors at maximum power output continuously
don't forget the main spindle motor with ~1kW
a 3A suppky will probably be more than enough in reallity, because you never actually do that in reall life
ahh, 1kw from the same 325V supply
use a separate suppky for the spindle
though that's really nasty
325V - now your frying the bacon...
i already thought about powering the spindle from 3x230V -> 560V
build two supplies
one a 3A one for the servos
what kind of odd spindle is this?
not a regular 3 phase one?
why do you ask?
the other a nice fat 4A one for the spindle ... its going to pull close to 3A continously, its going to do more work than the servo one ever will
PasstScho: Because I want to know..
anonimasu: it is a normal ac motor
* robin_sz wonders if a VFD might be a better idea
PasstScho: Well, buy a proper VFD.. for a 3 phase motor..
1kw ones are dirt cheap..
ok, here it comes - Fasten your seatbelts
* robin_sz nods
* robin_sz holds on
it will be diy :>
not the motor...
PasstScho: WILL YOU STOP SCREWING AROUND FFS!
you wikk kill yourself if you arent entirely sure about this
VFD & Servo drive
Dont play with live power unless you are completely confident in what you are doing.
so .. why the 325V then?
vfds are usually AC in
mains in ... motor goes spin
anonimasu, is he going to build his own servo drives?
vfds usually are 1 phase in to 2kW and >2kW 3-phase
anonimasu, ahh, ok, well, i'll leave it there. life too short
robin_sz: but im more worried about the vfd..
anonimasu, dont worry, its a lost cause
anonimasu, they are like 50 euros on ebay, so what do I care
the vfd will be the same as the servo-drive
PasstScho: seriously consider buying one, you are in way over your head.
yeah, well, whatever
and show me 3x servo drives with cheap motors and step&dir input
be cheaper to buy them
the more people tell me to, the more i want to build it...
i know it might be stupid, but i have the time :)
and the money?
(and no risk - no fun)
it will cost more than buying htem for sure
enought to bring it to a working state - yes
PasstScho: we dont care really.. you are just another one of thoose people that comes around..
good luck ...
prove us wrong :0
ty, i am sure i'll show something
right, off to run the laser for a few hours and cut some parts
maybe a grilled PasstScho or maybe a working cnc... who knows :)
got 2 tonnes to cut by monday
PasstScho: why do you even need servos?
anonimasu, looked at a waterjet yeaterday
PasstScho: there's no such thing as cheap servos btw.. ;)
anonimasu, nice machine, might add it to the factory
anonimasu, 50hp pump at 60K psi
robin_sz: that's it?
that's a cute machine
how thick will it cut?
anonimasu: it was actually just a question, if a diy vfd would work... it grew to a diy servo-project
robin_sz: You wuss, go for the 300M damnit!
it has tilting head technology
300mm my aching back!
so the cut is always square
robin_sz: I just wnat to know how 300M compensates for the curvature of the Earth =)
Skullworks-PGAB, well, in reallity 150mm is practical
/mw runs off to hijack a forklift.
Skullworks-PGAB: if electric, dont forget the charger too
im off to bed
maddash, I've seen who he sleeps with ... way too hairy for my liking
she's a guy?
hairy armpits, doesn't shower very often ... nails too long
sits around the house naked and from what I hear, has been seen taking a dump in the garden!! ...
eric_u, dang :)
* robin_sz goes off to play with a laser
[21:26:28] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38427
I thought I had seen toolchange discussed here
gene seems to like us
I think gene is mad at us
he keeps leaving
don't panic, there are still 3 genes left :D
I suppose that's sufficient
2 hrs later: "gene_________________________________________ ... Oops: Kernal panic
is deshelling sunflower seeds a closely guarded secret ?
eat them whole. they just hurt on the way out.
that maybe should have been kept to myself