(crazy idea of the moment) - is EMC capable of directly driving a stepper motor through a few power transistors on a parallel port?
look at stepgen
oh in that sense... but can it act as a stepper driver if I put an op-amp to threshold on the current)?
chopper driver I mean
ds2: I highly recommend you opto-isolate in any case
a chopper drive is an analog circuit, you don't want the PC involved in that
but a chopper needs a clock to do the chopping
trying to think of the simplest/cheapest way to make use of these bipolar steppers I have
how cheap do you want?
as cheap as possible
xylotex will nicely drive 3 nema23 motors from a parport for about $120
anything under $20/motor?
I can get MOSFETs pretty cheap
half stepping is acceptable
you are talking about 2 windings, with a totem pole on each end of each winding
8 mosfets, 4 of them needing high side drive
half stepping - look at what cradek used
[00:05:58] <skunkworks> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc/stepper-drivers
2 amps max though
would like to get the current up to the name plate value of 4.5A
for $20 per motor?
but something like that is close to what I am thinking of
yes, that is the target
kit form is fine
you are talking about 2x 4.5A H-bridges, with high side drive, total 8 power devices
not even counting PC board, terminal block, main filter capacitor, etc, that's only $2.50 for each FET and driver
a 14A FET can be had for $1 each
Look at this thread http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24699&highlight=allegro
14A with no heatsink?
(what is the Rdson?)
didn't say that
if you need a sink, add in the cost of the sink....
Rds is 0.16ohm so about 1W
we are talking about different things here...
4.5*4.5*0.16 = 3.24 watts
$20 in parts that i have to buy
you are right... forgot to square the 4.5
not a production cost... so PCB and heat sink don't count torward the $20
why? you gotta build it on something, perfboard, pcb, whatever
cuz I have those things lying around
and you gotta sink it - sure, you can use scrap aluminum, but there's still time and energy in drilling, fitting, etc
if that has absolutely zero value to you, then sure, build
I am concern with new fresh cash outlay
actually, I have TO-220's heat sinks around so it is better then just aluminum scrap
look into L298's. or learn about mosfets and how to drive them
I know how to drive MOSFETs in the static case... it is the G-S capacitance that gives me headaches
I just designed (at work) a mosfet totem pole rated 20A peak, 1A or so steady state, and it has a bunch of little SOT-23 transistors and 1206 resistors and stuff for the level shifting and high side drive...
in my world, those things cost literally pennies and are installed by machine
I would NOT want to build that circuit by hand, to many solder joints
there was a time when I wanted to design and build my own stepper driver - and I have lots of parts from the dumpster at work, FETs, optos, etc
but I decided that my time was worth something (not much, but something)
yes, and you are right; this is more of an exercise in designing somthing that controls more then 100mA so part of it is educational
you didn't say that before
you said "kit" and "$20"
oh I thought the cheapness gave it away
I played around about 10 years ago making a stepper drive.. It worked ok but not great. that wasn't even microstepping. If you keep an eye on ebay you can get decent microstepping drives for under 50 per axis
I said $20 cuz this is likely to be suboptimal and kit was a way to go through the motions
no, "kit" made me think you wanted something already designed, where all you had to do was solder
Ohhhh no no...
that would be a waste of time... a kit is an opportunity to 'dry run' a design
you must use the word kit differently than I do
kit = pile of parts preselected for some specific design, and probably a board etched for that design
not subject to much change by the assembler
I guess so... i see a kit as a pile of parts, schematic with a lot of opportunity to tweak values, etc
kind of like a eval board of sorts if I am not twisting that term too much
as soon as you tweak the pile of parts needs augmented anyway
ok, I think I see where you are coming from
augmenting is fine.
if you are bound and determined to design something, just do it - pick a FET you can get cheap, and design a driver for it
but doing it with discrete parts under $2.50 per FET will be touch
yes if I had to get everything
there are probably IC solutions, but then it becomes a matter of finding an IC that A) you can buy B) doesn't suck up your entire budget C) meets your requirements
if you buy a kit, you "have to get everything" too
yeah... I been following some of the threads on doing that on CNCzone; for somereason they all seem to top out at about 2A
what IC? the 298?
there was one with a SG part and another one from Allegro
not sure the numbers
ST I mean
I think the chip in the xylotex board is an allegro
lots of choices
[00:26:11] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24699&highlight=allegro
if you can solder a really really small package. :)
heh.. highest is 3A
[00:26:52] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6958
unless it is a BGA, me not worried ;)
just the chip is about 5.00
but it seems to do everything
what current rating?
it has mosfet drives in it.. I don't know what max it can do
looks like external drivers
the allegro page has discrete FETs
datasheet for the chip: http://www.allegromicro.com/datafile/3977.pdf
that is very misleading
they call it a "DMOS driver" which implies that it can drive external fets
but the fets are internal, and limited to 2.5A
that IS the chip Xylotex uses
oh I see.
if 2.5A is enough, its a great choice, and tons cheaper than Xylotex - the $20 per channel price is in reach if you can make your own board
the part is $5-6 from digikey, you need some external filter caps, terminals, etc
this chip costs about the same, and drives _external_ mosfets
[00:35:09] <jmkasunich> http://www.allegromicro.com/datafile/3985.pdf
non-trivial interface tho, serial
depending on your skill level, you could build a beefy stepper drive with that chip and some FETs
SPI is more conforting then the power side
pg 13 of the datasheet has some guidelines for the power circuit layout
and I know a few things about high power circuit layout techniques
and I have had power switchers not work from ignoring layout guide lines ;)
that chip give you a lot for $6
there is a reason why they call it PC board "artwork"
there's an art to it
* skunkworks knows jmkasunich knows his shit.
* jmkasunich is an artist!
the problem with that part is no step/dir inputs
everything is serial
Hmmmm it wants a HV input, probally to drive the gate so I don't need logic level FETs?
thats the motor power
yes, but that is also what is seen on the gates, right?
the high side gates need floating drive
and that chip does it for you
cheap + logic level + high current doesn't seem to common
you looking at fets?
not really...just trying to figure out if it needed logic level gates
no, it doesn't
this is a nice chip then
" REF The reference voltage, VREF, at this pin sets the
maximum (100%) peak current. The REF input is internally
limited to 2 V when a 20 kΩ pull-up resistor is connected
between VREF and VDD. This allows the maximum refer-
ence voltage to be set without the need for an externally-
The use of PWM with N-channel MOSFETs provides the
there is the L6203 is a 4A full H-bridge - drive 2 from a L297 and you get a 4A Bipolar
generated voltage. An external reference voltage below the
most cost-effective solution for a high efficiency motor drive.
maximum can also be input on this pin. The voltage at VREF
The A3985 provides all the necessary circuits to ensure
is divided by the range select ratio Gm to produce the DAC
that the gate-source voltage of both high-side and low-side
reference voltage level.
external MOSFETs are above 10 V
fsck, messy paste
The use of PWM with N-channel MOSFETs provides the most cost-effective solution for a high efficiency motor drive. The A3985 provides all the necessary circuits to ensure that the gate-source voltage of both high-side and low-side external MOSFETs are above 10 V
there is the L6203 is a 4A full H-bridge - drive 2 from a L297 and you get a half step 4A Bipolar - add a L6506 and its now a chopper current limited
hmmm that is moving into the realm of a "real" drive suitable for actual use ;)
* Skullworks_PGAB has been spending way to much time researching integrated bidge chips...
interesting parts. thanks for the info.
<-- more comfortable on the low voltage/current side hence the need to learn about the rest of the world
* Jymmm hands ds2 an 'E Ticket' to get on the 'It's a Small World' ride at Disneyland
Small world IS NOT an E-Ticket ride... (or I wasn't last time I was there...)
floppy connector on mobo's is slow?
Skullworks_PGAB: they dont have lettered tickets in 20 years eiither =)
yeah, I know. But "I" remember...
I was just wondering if FDD could be used instead of paraport
FDD is SUPER CPU intensive
and I have no Idea how you could manage that
just a radom thought is all
* Skullworks_PGAB hands Jym a high speed 8 bit ISA paraport card.
No thanks, alreayd ahve a brand new never used still sealed in the box dual pci paraport card
Though, if you have a 20" IDC to db25M cable, I'll happily take that off your hands.
I might - do you know the pin out?
there were like 3 versions
standard paraport header connector
I cna grab it off the pdf for this mobo, but it's common
the one I have is like 8"
R I G H T... ther are different versions depending on mfg
Epox won't work on Tyan etc
it's IDC, how many configurations culd there be?
you know, ribbon cable
* Skullworks_PGAB runs off to take pics...
I have never had a printer port header the same between motherboards
I don't think there is a standard
what, are they swaping ribbon cable around?
* Skullworks_PGAB gives up
they are in cases waiting to be scraped
but what board is it for - I should be able to match 1 up
Well, if it's a 26-pin IDC connector on one end to a 25-pin IDC on the other, there's only four options. If it's 26 IDC to 25 molded, could be anything.
pin1 = PSTB#
25 = PSLCT
26 = NC/KEY
on the IDC
even pins 10 - 24 = GND
ok - its an up/dn type
pg 18 ftp://ftp.tyan.com/manuals/m_s2518_120.pdf
[01:16:38] <Jymmm> http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/15817
ok, off to work, back in 90
03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/ (6 files):
allow transient tool length offsets. G43 H-1 takes optional I and K words which
specify length offsets in native units. This will work well together with
probing to set length offset for loose tools that have a different length every
time they're loaded.
I still think we need G10 L1
hope people like it, I can't test it right now
Skullworks_PGAB: that would write a value into the tool table?
yep works like G10 L2 does for g54-g59.3
but those are coordinates not lengths - it must not quite work the same
except L1 specs it for tool lenth and dia
how about lathe tools that have two "lengths" and also some angles?
or is it something you'd only find on a mill controller
only defines leading edge and tip (dia of part)
actually there are to versions
simplified and complete
I have never used the "complete" version.
I will get the spec for you
once online I saw a kind of switch platform that was just for this (plunging tools into it to measure them) - does anyone know where to find it?
it might be one of those things that might be easier to buy than make
easier maybe, cheaper hell no
with a light - or full feedback?
I bet they charge lots of bucks
just a switch
I use the 2" electric, runs about $85 for enco
what is 2" ?
everone sells the same unit - enco sells it cheapist
ok someone should send me one of those so I can test this :-)
the size of the plate the tool hits?
yeah free height
plunger is sping loaded so you don't break anything on overtravel
it trips as soon as you hit it, but has some free travel downward so you don't break or chip the tool?
how wide is the flat part that you aim the tool at?
perfect for those small engraving tools
can you do a 1" endmill? a 3" face mill?
ok, for small stuff
just touch off at the tool tip
I use it up to *" face mills
you gotta make sure that a cutting edge hits the plunger tho, not just the body of the facemill
and - with my diamond facemills I have to use a jumper - to get around the hardanodize finish
does it make electrical contact thru the tool?
facemill body is 7075 - hard anodize
or is the switch internal, and it just needs to be pushed, by anything including a non-conductive object
oh, I thought there was an actual switch inside the widget
tool is switch
grounds the plunger contact to the body
lights up then
body and plunger are surface ground to 2" +/-.0001
when setting the diamonds I clip to the insert screw
also on plastics I set it on Al foil
[01:41:14] <Skullworks_PGAB> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=636-7044
that it - crappy pic
03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/ (rs274ngc_return.hh rs274ngc_errors.cc interp_convert.cc): don't allow motion in the same block as G43 H-1
hey cradek, the roughing/finishing cycle is in the wiki
* Skullworks_PGAB slaps Jymmm with a 4r8a9i11n13b17o26w trout
there is a better pic of it in the hot deals catalog on enco
found a cable for you
DB25F to IDC26
Skullworks_PGAB: OUCH! that's my problem now.... the mobo is about 12" wide and the header is on the right side, and where the db25 needs to go is on the left.
Skullworks_PGAB: Thank you though, much appreciated.
solder some extra ribbon cable in the middle of what you have ;)
mail me the cable i'll do it for ya.. and i just bought some heatshrink too ...
anyone sell an IDC26M to IDC26F extendor cable?
ohiopctechDOTcom: thanks, I think if I just hit the electronics surplus store this week i can find one the length I need.
So, so far this up coming week it's frys, machien surplus, and now electronic surplus.
m'kay.. if not.. take an old hd ribbon cable.. splice in the extra length you need
the hal pwm-generator, has an input 'pwm-freq'. I'm using it with an L298 h bridge. Is 'pwm-freq' on the hal pwm-generator what the l298 refers to as 'commutation frequency'? (25kHz typ, 40kHz max)
it is the frequency of the PWM waveform
the PWM goes high and low that many times per second
yes, I'm trying to decide that value
that for that "Solarbotics" board?
higher means less pwm frequency ripple current in your motor (good), more switching losses in your power transistors (bad) and lower resolution (bad)
if you go too low, you'll get lots of whining from the motor
and it will heat up
with software PWM, you don't want a really high frequency
* Skullworks_PGAB bought 3 - is working on moding one to parallel the outputs as per fig 7 of the L298 data sheet.
suppose your base period is 20uS, and you set the PWM frequency to 10KHz
that means the PWM has a 100uS period
so there are only a few possibly duty cycles: 0/100uS, 20/100uS, 40/100uS, 60/100, 80/100, and 100/100
very low resolution
10Khz is audible too - women complain
set it to 1KHz, and the period is 1000uS, you can do 0/1000, 20/1000, ..... 620/1000, 640/1000,...... 960/1000, 980/1000, 1000/1000
granularity is not as bad... gotcha
if i need good low speed control (edm) then what suggestions might you think of
I'll sacrifice top velocity for good low speed control
Skullworks_PGAB: i did same, built one doubled already, 7805 & better diodes
its not a velocity thing
its a motor thing
you are running DC servo motors? with a 298 bridge?
start with 4 KHz
see how much noise and vibration you get, maybe tweak it up or down
don't go below 1KHz, ripple current will get high
don't go above 10-15KHz, resolution will go down the tubes
it will take some trial and error
ok, i meant the motor must respond to small changes in D%... ok 4khz & 'listen' to what it says , great info, thnaks
software PWM is nowhere near as nice as hardware PWM
i was reading about the tool zeroing discussion in the mailing list...
will i need to enable 'dither' ?
my fave machine... let you run through and zero each tool before you started the program....
dither is optional, it can improve resolution, but it can also result in strange vibrations and such
and stored them in the controller.. like emc...
try it and see how it sounds, and how it behaves
you can turn it on and off at will with halcmd, even while running
halcmd == gui ???
tomp - you driving straight off the paraport?
Jymmm: halcmd = the command line tool that is the key to all HAL
tomp: I ran this with pwmgen. I think it worked quite nice. http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/mess.JPG
Skullworks_PGAB: was going to use m5i20 but the parport is likely easier, thanks
how you flipping the hi/lo - I don't think the port pins can sink enough...?
but now I have a mesa and pluto board...
skunk - you done anymore with that?
skunkworks: ah, nice
skunkworks: is that PCB one axis driver?
oh, I just saw that the cpa is connected, I thought it was just a stand! LOL
skunkworks: no heatsinks needed or not complete?
crap.... 43 days uptime, and I crash a kernel module....
[03:01:19] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/sinks.JPG
why such small heatsinks?
:) what I had at hand, although the mosfets I am using have pretty high rds.
skunkworks: is that a dbl sided pcb?
jmkasunich: thanks ( sorry, i was running your calculations :)
someday you should email me those g-code files...
skullworks.. was that you that had the p2 slot 1 333?
You have the eagle files :)
skunkworks: did you HAVE to make it dbl-sided, or choice?
jymmm: it was easier. jmk did the layout.
skunkworks: Ah, ok. I just have difficulty aligning things up that have to be "flipped over".
I thought I did - so far all I found was a 266 with a huge dual fan sink and a POS 300a Celeron
let me know if ya find one.. ;) i'll paypal the shipping to ya or somethin
ohiopctechDOTcom: Did you NEED a P2 ?
i don't NEED it... though i have a 233 and Skullworks_PGAB said he had a 333 i could swap it for
I used registration pins.
haha.. ebay "accepted" my payment for the invoice
how nice of them to do so...
ohiopctechDOTcom: Ok, I'm confused.... Why are you looking at P2 instead of at least P3 ?
ohiopctechDOTcom: I have a P3 slot1 500Mhz cpu
maxes out at 333 P2
Intel Piix4 440LX chipset
lol, Skullworks_PGAB know more about my box then me..
must my mob's are 440BX
ohiopctechDOTcom: are you muckign with this gateway mob for a reaosn?
i have... an old mobo with a slot 1 433
but i can't figure out why it wont stay turned on
P2 or P3?
when you replaced as many as I did - on the job...
it comes one for two mins and reboots or shutsdown
i think it's a 440bx
if i remember right
ohiopctechDOTcom: are you just trying to bring up another computer?
that 433 cpu is a celeron i would bet
it was 2 motherboards i bought.. built 2 pc's 1 for me and sold the other.. same parts in them both except mine had more ram and a 450mhz chip
about 7 yrs ago
no it's not a cellyeron
regarding skunkworks's PC board... he's aiming for 20ish amps and 150ish volts
at that power level, stray inductance is very important
then he brings it over like i'm gonna fix it for free so it sits here still after 1 yr
i havent touched it.. like the warranty may be up after 7 years .. i'm not fixing it for free lol
the two layer layout lets you cancel out most of the stray inductance, by putting the return path for each circuit under the supply path
03petev 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/boss_plc.c: -Exported apm-ready-delay parameter.
there is thses mini hall effect sensors to detect current
and it looks pretty :)
jmk-solo: Ah, never considered that at all.
look like SMT diodes
you just run the power trace under it and it can feed back current
jmk-solo: I like the mount to cap design you put in there =)
more low inductance stuff, long caps leads = bad
can't get much shorter than they are in that design
He was trying to explain it to me then finally said - 'give me what you have and I will fix it' :)
thats a pony keg of a cap!
duh... I was just about to post a pic to a similar cap that was blown up
but its on my server
the one that I just shut down
you on a laptop?
i jsut pulled the 433 p2 board out.. it has caps by the power connector with rounded tops... that may be why it shutsdown....
right now I'm on the new machine
so the chip is still good.. if i had a mobo for it...
which is so much quieter..... I hate to turn the other one back on
I have been pretty hard on the circuit so far - no issues. but I haven't gotten to the 20ish amps and 150ish volts yet. ;)
ohiopctechDOTcom: That is the smae mobo I have, but mine has the RAID stuff on it, which I disable in the BIOS anyway
i saw that the other day.. looks like a decent board
ohiopctechDOTcom: with CPU's too
i'd go ahead and use the raid.. nothing like backups!
ohiopctechDOTcom: it doesnt' have the raid, mine does
*NO IDE RAID *NO ONBOARD SCSI
"dev/hda has gone 103 days without a check, check forced".... bah!
jmk-solo: quit abusing those system of yours over ther e=)
Jym - which CPU's you running...?
1GHz with 2Gb ram installed, it supports up to 4GB iirc
Skullworks_PGAB: i don't remember
I have some cool little compaq mini cases that have 400mhz pentium II - They take 600mhz pentium III
Skullworks_PGAB: BTW weirsstuff is near me and ds2
the one cool pc store by me shut down.. pc club
didn't want to open these....
time for bed
but forgot which they were exactly...
matche pair of PIII-S cpus
1.266GHZ 512 cache
For some reaon mine keeps saying "CMOS BATTERY LOW" every day, even after replacing it. I got an email into tyan, but I doubt they'll reply
Skullworks_PGAB: you gonna buy that board just for the cpu's huh?
It's acutally a 1U mobo, if you get the right heatsinks.
no - bought then to put in the GTW 6400 dual server - but then the tualatin adaptors dried up!
what day was it that new bridgeport machines were going to fall out of the sky? i don't wanna miss mine...
ohiopctechDOTcom: in 4 hours ago.
they were on sale for $4.95 ea - now there rare and go for $49 ea.
thats the adaptors
jmk-solo: i think i better plan on a hell of a mechanical reducer for very low speed control. let motor run fast(er) and use several hundred to one reduction ( two systems in basement are 5400 to 1 with dbl worm reducers )
that makes rapids not very rapid, but will give you much better low speed control
lash in the reducers will make things interesting, unless they are preloaded
a lathe in indiana is selling in two minutes for 500 dollars
if i had a truck...
could rent one
what kind of lathe?>
[03:34:20] <ohiopctechDOTcom> http://cgi.ebay.com/LeBlond-14x32-Heavy-Duty-Lathe_W0QQitemZ110119606186QQihZ001QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
with a lift gate on the back
it would be a great first lathe for me
take grrey hound out, drive back
thats really weird
tualatin just uses a different pin out - but the same socket 370 - another bad idea...
if i would have seen that before the 2 mins...
no threading or broken threading? send the guy a message quick
ohiopctechDOTcom: no tooling... no chuck or anything
lol, imma email him
it doesn't seem like a bargain to me
i may be able to go over and check it out
i need a cheap lathe
and thats as much as a mini lathe
whats that surplus place for big motors and stuff?
no, another one
[03:37:35] <cradek> http://i19.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/9b/4b/65e7_1.JPG
ok maybe not THAT big of motors
sure looks like no threading - very very strange
probably made strictly for production
no compound slide either
why give it capabilities that won't be used
not a good choice for a home shop IMO
and why no bids probably
the threading could be cnc'd
which is what i would do with it i think
surpluscenter is in cradek's neck of the woods isn't it?
i emailed the guy abotu coming to check it out...
yep a few miles away
indiana is right next door
i can be at the border in 30 mins
is it the close end of indiana or the far end?
he might be almost in chicago
i know where there is an old hydraulic NC lathe
they tried to sell that to me for 300 bones
it had just had 4,000 dollars worth of calibrations done to it
when they took it out of service
anyone interested in that?
I have space issues
ya me too...
I just sold my 13" south bend
i'd throw some shit away if i had a nice lathe to move in tho...
the good news is, I sold it to the model shop at work, and I can still use it if I need to
[03:43:43] <Jymmm> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=20-672-021
way to go jmk-solo
The next proj for fest
autocomplete didn't work so good that time
Jymmm: they usually have much cheaper ones
was any gearbox work done in emc? ( like speed selection ranges using gears )?
jmkasunich: ah, ok
the mazak has auto-gear-change
done in HAL
[03:44:56] <cradek> http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?Item=11-3124&UID=2007042922361029
cute scara: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=01-927-008&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0
puma style for $499: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=40-988-026&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0
this would have lots of neat parts in it: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=40-991-053&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0
i love 80/20
it's like lincoln logs for grownups
I wonder how much to ship
the next saturday sale at HGR is May 19... I missed the one this month (last weekend)
Jymmm... it's got a rotary indexer and a gripper hand.. i don't see much else
the plc is even gone
80/20 can be nice - but then you have to go thru the whole thing and re-tighten everything unless you used loctite the first time...
btw, for folks going to the cnc workshop... if you find something at HGR that is small (one man lift) I can pick up and bring
no big robots, I don't have that much room in the truck
i wouldn't mind having that abb robot at my house.. lol
JMK pics - lots of pics
nother small scara: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=20-757-027&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0
* ohiopctechDOTcom isn't going to make it this year... i am going to plan for going next year though
from the workshop
jmkasunich: how about http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=01-836-010&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0
you can ship that one yourself
the inverted one is interesting http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=40-988-016&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0,
hang it above your emc mill to change workpieces
jmkasunich: great resource
ha.. that looks like a prop from an alien movie
it's zaphod beeblebrox's 3rd arm
lets put all these robots together and make a transformer bot
that could be it's "third leg"
anybody doing serious machine rebuilds? (scraping and such)
granite straightedges: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=10-205-004&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0
you guys ever check out advancemachinery.com?
jmkasunich: i had a lot of scraping done on some mid sized machines
they are in dayton... my dad worked there before i was born n stuff
wow thier website isn't working.. they must be re-doing it
nice tools, a matched set, make risers for wedm ( non conductive & stabile )
what kind of dough goes into a wire edm machine.. say 6"x6"x6" cutting area...
tomp: it says straight edge, not parallels
ah, good point
might only be finished on one side, or might not be parallel
but on the other hand, there are two, and usually that means a matched set
if they are parallels, they're worth a lot more than the asking price
ohiopctechDOTcom: 6x6x6 is likely 45-80K new (cheap to quality price range ), but nearer 500$ for ancient used 2D system
well i was thinking... a diy edm
duh, I find the stupid typo 2 mins _after_ I crash the module again
[03:58:54] <ohiopctechDOTcom> http://cgi.ebay.com/LeBlond-14x32-Heavy-Duty-Lathe_W0QQitemZ110119606186QQihZ001QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
there's a fram for a mini mill.. lol
Danm and I thought I could get me a redhead or two off of ebay
[04:11:55] <Jymmm> http://www.ubasics.com/adam/electronics/doc/rotryenc.shtml
I used to love Leblod lathes
i need something... some kind of lathe
i am starting to think the mini lathe i had my eye on.. is going to leave me missing things like i do with the mini cnc mill i built...
things i wanted to do with it.. i can't it's too small!
I'll likely buy an enco when they have another free shipping deal
they r on sale for 399 right now
399 for what?
399 for the mini lathe
no I mean a 12x36 with a D1-4 spindle
a real lathe IOW
what do those cost anyway?
about $2300 about for the one I was looking at
whats the difference between the 2583 and 2584
the 83 is $2300, the 84 is $2900 on sale for $2100
oh, the 84 is a gap-bed
no, they're both gap bed
the 84 has the threaded spindle nose
the 85 has the D1-4
and the 85 is a 13"
83 and 84, not 84 and 85
83 and 84 are both 12"
looks like that sale is quite a deal, about $800 off the better lathe
[04:27:24] <Jymmm> http://www.linengineeringstore.com/trinamic/tmc239.aspx
ok - but still the diff is the 83 is a thread on chuck vrs a D1-4
I got thrown off because the showed a different p/n
the 84 also has electromagnetic motor starter instead of reversing switch, and a few other things
16 spds instead of 12, 1500 rpm max instead of 1200...
but they are offering the same machines with an upgrade to Baldor motors
how much for the upgrade?
Baldor just got bought and is going overseas...:(
bought by who? and when?
baldor just bought reliance electric, where I used to work
but AB bought reliance first, and I got moved to the AB side
add $250 for the Baldor
personally I wouldn't do that (the adder for baldor)
its still a single phase motor, single phase sucks
I'd save my money for a vfg and a three-phase motor
the three phase is better and cheaper than single phase
the china motor should last long enough to let you get the vfd
Not sure who - but Gene at IH had Baldor quote a custom 3400rpm spindle motor - and the engineer he was talking to said that the deal in the works
yep, i used Baldor ( big-uns) for years, then discovered 3 phase yaskawas.. a whole new world of performance
smaller & easier to tune
[04:36:46] <ohiopctechDOTcom> http://cgi.ebay.com/Sabre-LATHE-by-SHOPMATE-model-2610T0_W0QQitemZ330112658115QQihZ014QQcategoryZ20789QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
*what is that for? lol
crappy ass pos cheap wood lathe
that's what i figured
but the goofy "lol, i never used it i don't know what it's for" made my brain skip a beat
* Skullworks_PGAB is watching "To Live, and Die, in L.A."
oening scene - that old printing press - the studio would have trouble finding those today...
I dont remember, how big is it?
hey - its got a good car chase scene...
or file cabinet sized
5 file cabnets
* Skullworks_PGAB thinks we have just started a new unit of measurement - the filecabnet.
I prefer dragon sized (always assumed adult)
small change - he's only printing $20's
The best press to print currency on is an AB Dick 360
in small quantities
sm qty being 20,000 legal sized sheets
and it is one file cabinet sized
if you try to print bills with windows/hp printer the secrect service notice pops up with a website address!
(i was making a logo for someone with photoshop)
*for refrence... lol
ohiopctechDOTcom: No, that's in Photoshop, not windows/hp
it's in ALL Adobe products
it recognizes that you are working with an image of currency?
well i saved it to my fat32 partition and printed it in linux
(it was not even close to a real bill)
but started with a scan of one
jmkasunich: yes (among other things)
there is fingerprints of sorts
in the ink
* jmkasunich remembers to put his EFF.org sticker on the truck
the gimp don't care that it has fingerprints lol
[04:52:40] <Jymmm> http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2004/01/61890?currentPage=all
too bad i dont use PS unless I have to =)
* ohiopctechDOTcom vows to stop lol'ing so much
Can you say "Green Screen"?
[04:55:26] <Jymmm> http://www.frugalcolor.com/
[05:00:17] <Jymmm> http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cds.html
yeah well once upon a time the Epson 740 inkjet was bad - coin chage machines ext.
anybody listened to my crazy music posted on my site? just curious
goodnight all, work tomorrow
soo.. anyways i'm going dumpster diving
i found some cool steel shafts in a dumpster... and some clear plastic stuff to engrave things on... woohoo
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-04-30.txt
skunkworks: well what?
cool, someone likes my change
you decided not to worry that forbidding motion with G43 would break some existing valid programs?
I'm anxious to try it but don't quite know how to set up the switch
jepler: I didn't change any behavior except when H=-1
perhaps one of these people who was anxious for the feature can give you a suggestion
and H-1 was illegal before?
:) I have seen people using microswitches. - tool comes over and pushes the plunger in.
I wouldn't have worried too much even if it broke an existing program :-P
yeah I don't think it's in the spec but you never know what all's in there
skunkworks: seems like you'd need a flat surface though?
why? most of the time - your tool has a point.
<a lot of the time>
I am thinking of the plastic micro switches with a plastick plunger.
plastic square plunger
true, but I was thinking end mills wouldn't trigger it well unless it was flat
guess I'll have to flip through my mouser catalog or something
check your email for the picture.
didn't get the email yet...
it is your timeguy email
ok it'll get there eventually then
(cnczone disabled both bugmenot accounts I guess)
skunkworks: a service to get log-in information for sites that require it
skunkworks: people sign up and then give the name+password to bugmenot, then others use the information
ah - ok. I could see cnczone blocking that.
jepler: are you getting used to US time again?
skunkworks: yeah mostly
still woke up at 5:45 this morning
which is nice, I have a little time in the morning and still make it to work on time
when we came back from ireland - we went to bed at 10:00 and woke up at 3:00 in the morning wide awake. we went out for breakfast :)
yeah that's exactly what it's like the first few nights home
what did you think of Ireland? I've never been there yet.
It was nice. we did a fly-drive. rented a fiat ;) drove around and stayed in bed and breakfasts. pretty much drove around the coast. Didn't do much big city driving although we saw the st patricks day parade in one of the cities.
we where there about 7 days.
saw lots of casltes. Kissed the blarny stone ;)
re: probe/length setter enco has voltage drop type length measuring tool, would need to hack led into a hal input.(or DIY) http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=308-0391&PMPXNO=12093229&PARTPG=INSRHI
and deskcnc/cnczone has a convertible probe/length setter for their users only (?) http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=120.
round-abouts where interesting - as was driving ont he other side fo the road.
I think a single Yamatake laser sensor would do the trick, non contact with hal-fu http://www.yamatakeusa.com/LaserSensors.asp
skunkworks: I still didn't get it. Can you put it on imagebin.org please?
tomp: "for their users only" is very peculiar!
[14:24:11] <skunkworks> http://imagebin.org/8406
they have a secret handshake too
yah - its call mach ;)
skunkworks: heh that's more like what I'd try, no lasers needed :-)
* skunkworks would do it that way also
* jepler notices one category of switch on this site is: Explosion-Proof Switches
tomp: does that enco setter 'give' if you plunge into it? I don't quite understand how it works
cradek: dont have one, but it lights up when 'touched', so i guess it completes a circuit, and is not brittle ( gets shorter with use? )
and graham stabler's probe is at http://www.indoor.flyer.co.uk/probe.htm
and if you want to use a switch, use something accurate ( really a 'microswitch' isnt good to .002" repeatability ), look at these http://oeiwcsnts1.omron.com/pdfcatal.nsf/PDFLookupByLinkCode/DS_D5A?OpenDocument
, it just depends on what you need :)
.002" seems pretty sloppy already, when you're cutting to Z-.004 (milled circuit boards)
1um Omron d5a at Newark ~170$ ( but is 1um accurate! and built for industrial tool length measurement ) http://www.newark.com/jsp/Non-Stocked/All+Non-Stocked+Products/OMRON+INDUSTRIAL+AUTOMATION/D5A-3200/displayProduct.jsp?sku=37B9952
mouser is 10$ cheaper, but the laser would be cheaper still, i'd have to play with it to see accuracy tho. renishaw uses lasers for thier tlo's
cradek: what does the I-word of G43 H-1 I- K- do?
lathes have X and Z tool "length" offset
* jepler hmms
ballnose radius offset?
so on a mill G43 H-1 I- doesn't make sense?
jepler: not really, unless you have two spindles or something else strange
are you writing docs?
yes, trying to
yay thank you
Here's what I've come up with so far:
[subsection] G43 H-1 I- K-
To use a tool length offset from the program, use G43 H-1 I- K-, where I- gives the X tool offset (for lathes) and K- gives the Z tool offset (for lathes and mills).
It is an error if:
* a movement is commanded no the same line as G43 H-1
I saw that as soon as I pasted
I hope to write an example of how to use it together with probing
unless there are gotchas I haven't considered, I think it'll work pretty easily
hmm I wonder if g53 works with g38.2
seems like it should, considering g38.2 reports machine coords
if it doesn't work in the obvious way, it's a boog
jackc is now known as crepincdotcom
cradek: did you ever get that picture thru your email?
* skunkworks seems to be having some email issues ;)
there seems to be a bit of a delay - like hours.
yes, the headers show that webteam.net held it for slightly over three hours
that is the company that hosts the company email.
hm, I thought I remembered that it was an error if the probe did not close before the end of the programmed move -- but it doesn't seem to be. Is my memory just incorrect?
it's supposed to be - I think it just doesn't work right
also, I think it's supposed to be an error if you begin a probe move when it's already tripped - might want to test that too
the documentation does say: f the probe does not trip during the move, an error is signalled.
cradek: did you consider using G43.1 instead of G43 H-1?
no, but that might have been smart
it might be more work, as well
* ohiopctechDOTcom is the proud owner of a new harbor freight 7x10 lathe...
it's still in the car.. i gotta carry it to the basement now and open er up!
I was thinking I could offset using an entry from the tool table, or from a "transient" tool - they work the same and are mutually exclusive
so I just made the transient tool an index that's impossible to get from the table and was previously an error
ohiopctechDOTcom: start cnc'ing it ;)
skunkworks: he will, as soon as he finds that there are 62.5 marks on the handwheel
that's the plan yo
imm try to go cnc/manual
i can just make new dials on my mini mill to be .oo1 though cradek
that would be fine, if you don't mind cutting everything the wrong size...
(are they 62.5?)
[insert rant, about someone who sends me stupid questions in email without bothering to read the text on my web page, here]
the dials are marked .oo1
but how many .001 in a rotation?
the HF stuff I saw had 62.5 of them, not 100 like you might expect
(1/16 instead of 1/10 leadscrews)
1/20 would be fine too I guess
a-l-p-h-a2 is now known as a-l-p-h-a
they are metric
some one must have thought - those americans use fractions ;)
LMS sells a replacement screw set that will give you 0.050 per turn
30 something per rev
i didn't count them
went the wrong way
.040 per rev
*i actually counted that time
ah, I bet it's really 1mm
on the y at least
hmm... stinky chinese and thier metric...
no big deal, you'll just cut everything 1.6% too big
they have good food though
or too small? I'd have to be smarter to figure that out
at least i have a lathe! lol
i'm not complaining
0.039something per rev, not 0.040
i'm gonna need a beach towel to clean the cosmolene off it now...
it'll be easy to fix when you cnc it
check everything for alignment, the headstock likes to be skewed
actually it's some kinda red goo.. not cosmolene
prolly vaseline with food coloring!
you have to swap out the gearing in emc though. Good luck finding replacements ;)
swap out the gearing?
yeah you need that 126 tooth hal component
it came with an extra set of gears... i haven't looked at them, they may be diff.. or the same
err 127 sorry
126 was an earlier buggy version
hmm sky is starting to look nasty here
was curious why you wanted a 126 factor ;)
uh oh.. i opened the lathe up on my porch.. i was sweating geesh.. you;d think it was summer!
skunkworks: 86 degrees here - I'd rather be on my motorcycle
it's about 75 or 80 here
It was beautiful yesterday - today was nice until about an hour ago.
here too - about 90 yesterday
got the motorcycles out finally
what is it?
a bit windy though
mine is a honda sabre 1100
basic road bike
Cool - dad found a 70s something honda 4 cylinder he putts around on.
I am not allowed to have a motorcycle ;)
[18:56:16] <cradek> http://www.nippfamily.com/DSC00760.html
this is it, except remove windshield and add two more headlights
Nice. Do you drive it to work?
and make it black instead of silver (no silly flames)
sometimes - not yet this year
I only like it in the hottest part of the summer really
the bastards didn't even give me 1 lathe bit
i did get an extra set of chuck jaws though
cradek: how would I go about uninstalling the experimental kernel?
but what am i supposed to crash into the jaws to need to replace them with?
and a live center...
skunkworks: apt-get remove --purge [those three packages]
ohiopctechDOTcom: anything else come with it? faceplate/dogs?
there is a faceplate (for mounting the chuck) and a 3 jaw chuck (4" or 5")
a couple wrenches...
a 4 pos. tool post/holder
is this the HF version?
BUT NOT EVEN 1 cutting bit
my neighbor paid for it ;)
back to HF with you
the other ones through in more accessories for the same price
he hit my car IN MY DRIVEWAY not too long ago
I bet they have cheap carbide insert lathe tools
and his insurance gave me a 700 dollar check
haha in your driveway!?
there is a link to pics of it
of my car.. after he hit it
towards the top of the page
* skunkworks ran into his own car.... twice.
not too awful bad... but he did hit it
i screamed at him for like 20 mins then called the cops
he got a dui... and his car got impounded
IT WAS HIS &th DUI!
he hasn't spoken to me since
can you say `drinking problem'?
he hasn't even came home drunk at 2 am and stood in his yard yelling at the whole neighbor hood
he hasn't even threatend to kill me in a whole month
i'm starting to think i made him mad?
lol, he has 2 cars... when he comes home drunk.. he hits the other car.. whichever it may be.. with the car he drove to the bar!
* skunkworks wasn't intoxicated.
skunkworks: twice? tell us a story!
lol we believe you skunk
i think i have a couple old carbide lathe bits in the garage
Nothing special.. Just forgot (twice) that I had parked my other vehicle next to me.
I often park one car behind the other, then back around it - I know ONE of these days I'm not going to be paying attention...
i know i have at least one.. in the flycutter i made 10 yrs ago....
crank the wheel and back up. scraaaape
man what a sound that makes
yah. it was quite a few years ago. been really good about it since :)
ohiopctechDOTcom: are your driveways adjacent, or was he in the wrong one completely?
it's paralell to his
he was trying to back into his apparently.. and missed by like 20 feet
there is a small patch of grass and a big tree in between our driveways
there used to be a half oak whiskey barrel with flowers.. he hit it so many times now it disentegrated...
gotta love dayton!
dayton? isn't there a big ham fest there ever year?
yup.. it's awesome if you like electronics
anybody wanna go? you can crash at my pad...
when is it?
my uncle has gone a few times
the hotels are always full.. and there is 30,000 cars with huge antennas
bunch of freaks ;)
if you wanna google for the webpage
it's called the dayton hamvention
at ahra arena
i went a few times...
damn it's coming right up
when i was taking electronics at school.. they made us go one years
I can always tell my uncles van.. Huge antanna on the back.
take me to your alien spacecraft leader... i wil hunt your signal down with my 8 foot antenna
mighiftwiw if you type "eagle schematic" into google you get the right answer
I should just ignore all dumb questions because answering them only leads to more dumb questions
FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME cancel
10 print "flame"; : goto rstart
10 print "flame"; : goto 10
oh - whatever
ha the little mini chuck key has a spring loaded thing to make it pop off so you don't throw it into your eye when you forget to take it out
cradek: " Bachelor norwegian farmers do not necessarily answer stupid questions" (prairie home companion)
brought to you by the catsup advisory counsel
it's the biscuits that are pure mostly
catsup is the stuff that contains natural mellowing agents
and nothing gets the taste of shame and humiliation out of your mouth like frozen rhubarb pie and rhubarb pie filling.
i think i just smoked some mellowtoxins?
with the dark stains on the package to indicate freshness
* jepler <-- a bit ashamed he not only knows this but couldn't help correcting skunkworks
great - now that song in my head.
maybe I'm not getting enough ketchup.
* alex_joni sometimes wonders if he entered the wrong channel
heh, alex_joni may not know about these things
indeed I don't
You can stream it from the internet.
alex_joni: it's a popular radio 'variety show' I guess
all I understood is cradek eating cat biscuits with ketchup
for lack of a better way to explain it
* skunkworks knows
alex_joni: done by some guy who tells made-up stories and sings, even though he can't sing very well
mind if I pass?
also, they have bands that sometimes are also not very good
did you guys see the movie?
am i gonna have to read the manual to figure out how to turn the cross slide on this mini thing?
it's actually fun to listen to
think I'll have a hot bath instead ;)
you can listen to them online: http://www.publicradio.org/tools/media/player/phc/2007/04/07_phc.ram
It is great background noise
jepler: thanks, but I don't like Real Audio, video & co
* alex_joni has a bad grudge against them
alex_joni: Rape The Female Moose????
it plays in microsofts media player.. Oh - never mind.
seems to be playing OK in mozilla with mplayer plug-in so far
please stop calling me a moose it hurts my irc feelings
I'll skip this for a while ;)
where is this syntax documented? "loadrt [EMCMOT]EMCMOT base_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]BASE_PERIOD"
i found it in etch.hal, but dont see it explained ( like what can i 'import' from a .ini file ?)
alex_joni: wusss ;)
Jymmmmmmm is now known as Jymmmm
ds2: Hey, they have a website now... http://www.trianglemachinery.com/products.html
tomp: thanks for mentioning that, I've added it to 'man halcmd'
CIA-20: you there?
cool, handy item
ssooi plug the min lathe in...
it takes 1 min to start moving the chuck... then it wont change speeds
then i turn it off.. and back on the fuse blows!
guess i'm going back to the store...
is there a way you wire it for 110 or 220?
and i'll get to unpack another
not that i saw...
it says 110
erit says 120
sounds like a blown controller board
remember to pick up some tooling ;)
Dallur: are you around?
i'm home with a new baby lathe
.. gotta go through like 2 hours of setup/cleanup again....
i'll try to run it before i go through all that bs though
they wanted 20 bux for 4 cheesy lathe bits...
i'll buy em from enco or something.. then when i spend 20 bux on bits.. they will last
Harbor freight mini lathe #2 GOING BACK!
it doesn't work!
i didn't even bring this one in my house
i plugged it in on the porch
time to try another brand
i would not reccomend this mini lathe to ANYONE.. not even ppl i hate
wow, take an extension cord with you to their dock next time?
are you sure it doesn't work?
the current HF minilathes have a safety interlock
there isn't a spindle index pin is there?
it doesn't work i swear
it shouldn't have a 3 minute warmup period
and it shouldn't blow fuses when you turn it on.. :D
the spindle turned free by hand...
i really wanted it to work
i went through the manual like 8 times looking for what i did wrong
but.. sometimes things just suck?
i'm gonna go ahead n try the enco version... it costs the same with shipping
on the list, people have reported issues with the safety sheild not fully engaging the interlock
i dunno.. but if i spent 465.00 it should jsut work...
i shouldn't have to muck around in the box
that's my opinion anyways
you might be disappointed then
so i'm gonna give enco a shot... then i'll give up and buy an old beast and stick it in the garage... and run 220 out there
cuz the lathe does not 'just work'. it is really a kit of castings that you have to clean, align, oil and maybe even scrape
i didn't expect it to be... perfect..
but the main point of having a lathe is to spin things... it wouldn't even do that
Rugludallur, are you around?
I think you're right to expect the spindle to rotate under its own power :-)
lol, thanks for having my back on that one
did you check the kit for a treadle power attachment? ;)
and there was talk about mounting a handle on the spindle
Martin_Lundstrom: yup :)
no hamster wheels or leather ceiling belt pulleys
Rugludallur, how is the setup working for you?
Martin_Lundstrom: on the controller machine now
Rugludallur, and what is the score so far?
soo enco or grizzly?
Martin_Lundstrom: Having some problems with jitter when I estop, I thought it was parallel ports but I just changed them so I'm starting to think it's the breakout board
there is two mini lathe options
Martin_Lundstrom: gantrykins and thc seem to work just fine so far but it's hard to tell when the breakout keeps messing up and causing me problems
Martin_Lundstrom: I think I'll order a second one tomorrow and try changing it
what is jitter?
Martin_Lundstrom: Even with estop on (there is an estop chargepump signal to the breakout) the breakout moves one of the joints on it's own
Martin_Lundstrom: in very jerky movements
Martin_Lundstrom: also happens with computer off :P so I'm pretty sure it's breakout
I cant say I really get it...
ohiopctechDOTcom: get the 7x14 from MicroMark...that should work right out of the box
Martin_Lundstrom: with computer off one of the motors moves ,, very rough movement
well, i was jsut looking at the enco 7x10.. the pics look just like the harbor freight
Rugludallur, can you mail me the config?
Martin_Lundstrom: sure, just a sec
ohiopctechDOTcom: have you looked at the 7x12's?
Martin_Lundstrom: I think I have your email but just in case can you send me private msg with email ?
Rugludallur, ah, some kind of interference!?
i glanced a tthem
Martin_Lundstrom: Just sent the config, just beware that there are a couple of things which are custom with my emc build
Rugludallur, ah, some kind of interference!?
Martin_Lundstrom: some changes to pyvcp, gantrykins and a hal component or two which I have not submitted patches for
Rugludallur, ok, so it wount work out of the box?
Martin_Lundstrom: nope, not yet anyways
Martin_Lundstrom: the issues with the breakout are not due to interference, happens with plasma off and computer off, that can only mean 2 things in my book, broken breakout board or badly designed breakout with thermal issues
ok, I will hook up my table without the thc first, only for some testing
Rugludallur, it sounds wired.
Martin_Lundstrom: yup, a breakout moving motors with the computer off sounds like a pretty wierd thing
does the breakout board have a ground connection?
Martin_Lundstrom: the board is not supposed to be grounded
good night all
* ohiopctechDOTcom is saving up money to buy a real lathe... and going to build his own ghetto lathe for now...
* ohiopctechDOTcom says forget the mini lathes from hf/enco/grizzly (all the same)
i just read.. the HF 7x10 is the only one without the safetey interlock.. so that want my problem
then CNC that!
there is one going for $265.. in texas
i don't think i'll be buying that
[23:30:11] <ohiopctechDOTcom> http://www.lonestaronline.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=861476467
i should just buy the old hydraulic NC lathe for 300 bones.. tear it down and turn it to 220v CNC
it would take up 50% -60% of my one car garage
problem isn't the price but rather finding one that will fit in the space available
the NC, it's like 9 or 10" x 20
i emailed micro mark to ask about the pwm controller.. if it's not the same as the HF lathes.. i'll buy a micromark
and i should be happy with that
if you got room for that...
i jsut wanna tun down screws or make a few wood pens...
always a Taig or Sherline
i have room for a mini lathe downstairs
if i go REal lathe sizes i'll hafta stick it in the garage
get a hardinage HLV
lewin1 is now known as lewing