jmkasunich: simplified hal names http://imagebin.org/8054
JMK did they ever test that H-bridge you helped with?
they = skunkworks
I believe he's run it with the motor on the bench, but I'm not sure
guess so - memory fails me at the moment
he's planning to use it for a K&T retrofit, but there's lots of work to do before he gets to that point
I want to use the Pluto-P but need something for the H-bridge output stage.
driving Pittman 14203 & 14437 motors around 30V
Skullworks_PGAB: i have pittman 14203's, i discussed it with jmkasunich. the maxV was 30.3 and not much current. i'm going to try these L298 bridges, modified to dbl the current http://www.robotobjects.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=6.
i ordered 3 on tuesday, got them yesterday :)
i'll use fan blowin' on a heatsink.
oh yeah: dirt cheap!
I got a bag of 50
for $75 shipped
just the chipps
they were leftover from a test board run
then the comapny cheaped out and decided to use unipolar drives...
the pcb (and connectors) is why i used the kit. the pcbs would cost me too much in qtys of 3 and size of 30mm sqr
so I scored the L298n's
make kits, sell 'em to guys like me :) or better, make jeplers pcb
I was looking at ganging up 2 L298's to get 8amp continous rating
oh yeah, found this h-bridge DIY from israel, looked nice http://www.ikalogic.com/H_bridge_1.php
gang 3x for 12A for the 14437 on the Z - but I'm afraid that 12a maynot be enough for rapid reversal.
the L298 specs say it derates when dbld, nearer 3.some amps , so dbdling that ( 2 pcs L298) would expect near 6
DC 2a per bridge
2 bridge per chip
they run it at 3amp for stepper drivers
they trick then becomes finding good diodes...
a group of good, FAST, 16A diodes...
"When the repetitive peak current needed from the load is higher than 2 Amps, a paralleled configuration can be chosen (See Fig.7).This solution can drive until 3 Amps In DC operation and until 3.5 Amps of a repetitive peak current."
that would be for 4x 298's
Skullworks_PGAB: if you are looking for much over 5A, I don't think the 298 is the way to go - even if you have lots of cheap ones
next tricky part would be a current limiter that would cut the enable signal and trigger an E-stop!
JMK - I aggre
this says 5A cont 8a peak http://www.ikalogic.com/H_bridge_1.php
that design suffers from bad heat sink design
they are mounted to the pcb
make that "crap heat sink piece of copper foil"
easy to fix that tho
should be mounted to a heatsink or vertical so individual sinks could be used
bipolar transistors are dumb for
for that power range
a bipolar is never gonna get much lower than 0.3 volts saturation
what was the power range that skunkworks bridge was targeted at?
at 5A, that is 1.5W per transistor
a 60 milli-ohm mosfet will be at the same dissipation, and have less switching loss
skunkworks was planning for 20A peak, if I recall correctly
and a 150V or so DC bus
well that would leave plenty of headroom...
on voltage atleast.
I worry about peak draw on reversals of the Z axis
like during a G83 drill cycle and a deep hole
plus the inertial load of the head weight
it lists a stall current of 40A... I know I won't hit 40A cause the power supply is only 20A, but the reversing load... I don't know how much headroom I need for that.
a reversal won't take any more current than a start or stop - it only takes twice as long
back EMF won't require more current?
I don't think so - the accel is the same on a reversal as on a start or stop
jmkasunich would know for sure
I don't know nuthin
"requires" more current is tricky
current = torque
that happens when you stare a "C" source too long.
(private Shultz "I know nothink, nothink")
if you give it less current, it will just have less torque and take longer to accel, decel, whatever
tomp : I bought that whole series on DVD
but - if you don't control and/or limit the current you might find it _draws_ more current during a reversal
thats what I figured
and the feedback loop of position is what will control the accel/decel rates?
yeah, pretty much
but if you have no current limiting, the worse case is if you run into a stop
the PID will command full voltage to the motor and it will draw whatever its locked rotor current is
an amp without current limit will go poof
then it blows the fuse
Power supply is 20A - stall draw is 40A
transistors blow faster than fuses
and this is my delima - finding a H-bridge that can push the motors at full capacity, and has a current limit/E-stop out
how many volts and amps do you need?
Hoping for an Elegantly simple solution that won't break the bank
motors are rated for 24V
and how many amps?
my PWS has open circuit voltage of 31
not sure... of the amps
the 14437 is the biggest moter
and the specs have me confused
got a URL?
sure - 1 sec - its the Pittman motor pdf...
this is the smaller motor - for x/y http://www.pennmotion.com/part_num_database/pdf/14203S010.pdf
[01:32:26] <Skullworks_PGAB> http://www.pennmotion.com/pdf/lcm_bulletin.pdf
- this covers all them
but the big motor is the 14437
ok, what don't you know about it
you got the 24 volt version, right?
I guess what I don't know is what spec I need for the H-bridge to be comfortable running these
yes 24v windings
that means 40A peak current, 10oz-in per amp. Since the continuous torque rating is 50 oz-in, that means 5A continuous
have an Elpac 24V unreg 20A powersupply
a drive without current limit should be able to survive 40A for a few mS and 20A for a long time if you want to run it safely with these motors and supply
if it has current limit to protect itself, and you can get buy with a bit less peak torque, then you could use a 10A drive
I hooked into the 135VAC winding to get an open circuit output of 31VDC
the voltage is almost a non-issue
not sure what it will end up under load of 3 servo amps
it makes a difference if you are talking about 24V vs 50V vs 90V vs 150V, but 24 vs. 30-something is irrelevant
I figured the PWM would counter the over voltage issue
the two key numbers are back emf constant and torque constant (lines 38 and 39)
you need 7.39 volts per 1000 RPM
is this from the 1st pdf?
so with 24V which is 3.24*7.39, you can get 3240 RPM
its from the one that has the 14437 in it
I'm reading 14xx7 data
the torque constant is 10.0 oz-in per amp
so if you hit it with 10A, you'll get 100 oz-in
sounds right - lists the no load @ 3211 rpm
but continuous is only 50 oz-in - that means if you run more than 5A for a long time it will overheat
so these motors are pretty weak then...
takes 20A to match a stepper @ 3A
weak is relative
they will deliver that torque at full speed as well as at a standstill - a stepper won't come close
at 3000 RPM, most steppers can barely turn over, let alone handle a load
was going to use 3:1 belt reduction
what is your leadscrew pitch?
was going with either 5mm or .2"
3000 RPM / 3:1 belt = 1000 RPM at the screw * 0.2 = 200 ipm at the table
yep thats my target
50 oz-in contuous * 3 = 150 oz-in at the screw, seems kinda low
but doubt It will make that
of course you can push more amps thru it (temporarily) to get more torque
what kind of a machine is this?
figure 80% of no load as rapid
that doesn't mean anything to me
small table top mill - 450lbs
tabletop, or tons?
do you really need 200 ipm?
if you belted it 5:1 that would still give you 3000/5 = 600 rpm at the screw, * 0.2 = 120 ipm
will have to live with less I guess
and 250 oz-in continuous, 500-750 oz-in peak on the screw
if its a 16" travel, 120 ipm goes end-to-end in 8 seconds
seems plenty fast to me
depends on what you're cutting and how fast you're cutting it
5:1 just causes big problems with pully sizes
* Skullworks_PGAB is used to 1250 IPM rapids... even the Knee mill goes 250IPM
big pulley gets kinda large...
450 ipm during cuts are not uncommon
of course, thats probably a $3000 per axis AC servomotor and drive combo
and that will cause a clearance issue on the Y axis
toastydeath: cutting what?
if you want
plastic, if you want
450 ipm on SS?
yeah the 22,000lb Mori Seiki has 9.2HP servo drives
each of those motors weighs more than your mill
and I've stalled them... with the 30HP spindle
yeah about right
I want to take a pic of the X3 on the Mori table when its done...:)
120 ipm rapids are not very quick if you're cutting something like aluminum
but that was bought with OPM (other peoples money)
er, ipm feed
toasty.. the spindle will be the limit on the table top mill
toastydeath: it all depends on the class of machine you are talking about
as shipped its rated at 3/4hp @ 2000rpm
3 hp can take a pretty decent cut
3/4 HP at 2000 RPM ;-)
that 0.75 HP
i read that as "three or four"
you don't deal with hobby class machines much do you?
but I will swap out that motor... put a 2hp belt drive on it
run at a lower duty cycle
instead of 100% load
i never deal with hobby machines
I'd give serious thought to going 5:1 or at least 4:1 on the drives
if your rapids are a bit slower than you like, thats a nuisance
i'd grab a used milling center rather than buy a new hobby size
if you don't have the torque you need or you overheat the motors by constantly running them at or above their continuous rating, thats more than just a nuisance
Toasty - I would too - if I had a place to put it...
yeah, that tends to be the hard part
girlfriend and I have decided to move into a warehouse space
so we'll have room
this machine is small enough I can move it without a rigging company...
your heating and air con bill ....
uh, not rly
i'm not going to heat the whole warehouse
what climate are you in?
(we have 6" of snow right now... sucks)
the warehouse itself will give us a buffer against whatever is outside
and then we're going to put up some walls on the inside
OK JMK - I'll target 4/5:1
and just insulate them
* Skullworks_PGAB is in an ice storm 21 dgrees F
and I don't have 3ph either :(
what city Toasty?
hal parport trainer http://imagebin.org/8060
Tomp - you going to make one?
already got it
made or purchased?
looks handy for debugging
breadboard, leds, switches, parallel cable broke out to a 48 pin wirewrap socket jammed into breadboard
power from unused hd power connector to screw terminal on breadboard ( i used 12 V instead of 5 )
I found my silver wrapping wire, but not sure where I but the tool...
i soldered to the legs of the ww socket, and left plenty to jam into the breadboard... will take a pic...
I used wirewrap on ISA only vintage MBDs to set the option jumpers...
heres the breadboard http://imagebin.org/8061
and the slide with the pittman motor http://imagebin.org/8062
i went to use the camera, i always take the batteries out, they're nimh, and there were only 3, needed 4... sometimes i wish i could upgrade to plain old bad luck!
(stole one out of the tv remote)
what Voltage is your Pittman?
thier sheet sez 30.3
I bought 6 of the 24V
what? do you go to the sams club for electronic parts store? 75 l298s , 6 pittmans !! :)
got lucky - they were ball bearing units, most use bronze bushings
well they are some of the smoothest motors out there
though I'd love to get some nice 4 brush motors... evem smoother.
so, whats the slide for?
got them from a guy in florida, i think they were photo copiers, 1mm national ball screw and nsk slides, heavy nice aluminum castings
i'll use them to study some hal motion
better, 1um linear encoder general dynamics, ttl ( no z phase for home tho )
btw - you read the pdf for that L298 kit you bought?
yeah, pretty ;)
if you swap the reg and diodes you can feed it more juice.
i asked thier eng about fsckin it up,he said it'd work to near 3 amp constant, yep, new diodes and a real 7895 heat sunk
I was going to get that same unit - direct from the mfg, I got the diodes and reg from MPJA
ah, MPJA thats where i got the slides!
I'm using some perf board from MPJA for the multi L298n test
and the best score was for 40$ each, i got 3 pcs headsup display ( over one eye ) 256 levels of green, plugged into vga connector (after a bit of hcaking) right when he started advertising
it looks funny putting an angle bend in the extended legs to fit the grid.
they dont align?
holes are on .1" centers
one row will fit - other row is offset .050"
multiwatt is weird layout, right
need a heatsink?
for a 298
i'll use heatsinks and fans when i dbl these 298's up for the 3amp at 24V
that slid also looks like it has a glass scale...
1um linear encoder general dynamics, ttl ( no z phase for home tho )
sweeeeet - I just spent $1400 on a DRO package with 3 sets of glass scales
i should use hal to control the lights on the new plants for the garden.. i just ran down stairs to manually turn them off. :-[
hal vrs CL
not a bad price, like BP size? i think i spent near 300$ for 18" 1um scales this summer, no dro
I still need to buy encoders...
30" X axis 12" Y axis, 24" Z axis
5" K axis - but not glass scale for the quill
this is the big mill - not the little one getting the pittmans
K is parallel to Z? like a backslide and a quill?
If I convert the bigger mill I'm going to chicken out and buy the full package from J.E.
I use Z for the full head - K for quill
think of a bedmill with a quill
this is the bigger mill http://www.industrialhobbies.com/Products/square_column_mill_2a.htm
yes, how you like that one? i loked at it ( actually the enco version for 1200$)
its in customs in California being X-rayd
then it goes to CT where they will add the DRO and other goodies, then gets shipped to me.
I should have it in about 2 weeks
and I don't have a decent place for it - so its going to end up in a corner of my kitchen...
I don't want it in a non-temp controlled enviro
frost on the ways
i had to pay 300$ to get skids and crates fumigated before they went on the ship from taiwan to CA
I ordered it when I was in process of buying a ranch, but the guys job offer fell thru and he decided to stay.
so I'm not moving...
I here that
A guy I knew got fined for not reporting the importation of Yugoslavian straw... that wwas used as the packing material...
[04:25:52] <tomp> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=18076290&PMAKA=NS326-1022
one year at IMTS i was uncrating a machine and a bat flew out
never been to IMTS
Chicago scares me, like NYC
grew up there, no fear :)
would feel nakked without my shootin irons, but the natives would freak
you just cant wear them here, the gummint dont like 'em
at least when I got to WESTEC in L.A. in only alittle paranoid.
but I would like to do IMTS some year
That Rong Fu - is smaller, weaker, and more money
but its a great machine
Rong fu is the best tabletop thats on the mass market
Skullworks_PGAB: where do you live?
there was some talk of the IHOB being a better machine, report on it when you get it. i have a chinese 3in1 and dont like the spindle at all. jmk has one and redid his
The IH mill is a royal pain to make - the whole factory retools for a month to do it
I'm in Colorado Springs - Grew up in L.A. area
heh, no irons in CA either
The IH is done as a custom job
but a V8 is an assult weapon in worst case...
and In L.A. I don't use public transportation
You're right V8 is an assult weapon on my taste buds http://www.v8juice.com/
but - as charlie started out, a sock full of $20 in quarters can be handy.
colorado springs = coors plant?
Coors - is up in Golden
Skullworks_PGAB quarters, bar of soap, etc
about 90 miles north
read back - Skullworks_PGAB was talking about being nekid without his shootin' irons
'attitude alignment tools'
Skullworks_PGAB weren't you the one talking about working in a bookstore?
yep I fill in there as needed
Ok, so nakkid and no shooting irons, would that be a strap on?????
I mainly do IT work on there Point of sale software database
* Skullworks_PGAB just got slapped by his own puns...
For those that missed that conversation last week, that would be an ADULT BOOK STORE
Skullworks_PGAB I just couldn't resist =)
since I work on the POS I have a cashiers account, which when one person quit made me the first choice as a temp
i had a friend that worked in a bookstore, we would go visitor her, so we could get into the attached nudie bar for free.
I worked several months 2 nites a week until additional staff was added, but I still fill in when people need time off
Its the only job I had where they don't care what you look at on the internet...
during my interview here... "do you have problme looking at p0rn? No. Ok, good"
but I was mainly reading email...
we got LOTS of p0rn here
If it's legal in the US, we probably got it somewhere.
Tomp - if you want an IH mill its priced much less than ENCO and has a 2hp single phase motor.
or a 3ph 3hp
single phase? cool, i have a 220V 20amp electric dryer outlet :)
(listening to ian drury and the blockheads 'clever trevor' hard to believe they're speaking english :)
I'm going to get the 3hp with a VFD later. (spindle motor upgrade)
the IH goes for $1995
and like I posted earlier - its a 30"x12" movement on a 42" table
its bigger than the regular Bridgeport at work, and about the same size (still bigger) as the extended version BP.
is the dovetail under the table near the size of the bridgeport dovetail?
don't really know
think its close
they really push it
.25" depth of cut at 100IPM feed
looks nice, i wanna hear your experiences when it comes. got some work for it? or is this your hobby?
this is just a hobby at this point - not sure if I'll do the cnc
I work at 2 machine shops as day jobs, but there are times I want to do stuff for me, and all machines are tied up
so I bought a Seig X3 to convert to CNC and the IH to use like a BP with the DRO
you gonna have a crowded kitchen ;)
X3 won't be fast - but its not going to be running extended production
maybe a dozen at most
I'm lazy now... if its production I'll run it at the shop on a 10K rpm machine with a 30+ tool ATC
but for home stuff
single part proto's etc
the X3 will give me a 16"x6.25" work envelope - thats enough to do most small parts
well, i'm outta here, nite all :)
its an R8 spindle so tooling is easy
Jymm is now known as Jymmmmm
I guess I shall boot up Windows XP and waste some time playing video games... (the best use for WXP)
library for hal in gEDA so far http://imagebin.org/8073
Jymm is now known as Jymmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jymmmmmmmmmmmmm is now known as Jymmm
ds3 what ya doin up at this hour?
nothing, I am a nocturnal person
ah, ok. Me too, but I have an excuse =)
and that is?
pay rent, eat, etc
a bit late for dinner?
No, no, work so I can have those things =)
Oh... late shift
what do you do?
Sit here and watch videos and p0rn
hmmmm you a NOC monkey?
you got it
ah those heh
why not just go in and randomly press reset? ;)
who says I don't?
donno... just happy I don't have any east bay servers ;)
yeah, you mentioned the UC Walmart was close to work
But I'm in Fremont, fairly easy drive - reverse commute.
eh? like in the old Frys Bldg?
came close to having boxes there
bring em in, so I cna reset them at random
the 880 travel nix'ed them
then 680 exactly between both
is warner useable thesedays?
sorta kinda.... but just take 680 and exit Mission Blvd
still much rather avoid Fremont w/them cameras
like SJ doens't have cameras
Cupertino and SM are the two South bay cities that do
and I avoid both
I coulda sworn I've seen cameras in SJ
SJ just has the vans and they aren't completely legit
I haven't seen those
so you figured a way to automatically set tools?
Oh gawd... I wish.
do you have a tool changer?
No, just a router
well yeah, me
then why bother?
becasue it would save a lot of time
tool height settings goes pretty quickly with a little practice
i don't use too many tools, so even 3 or 4 would be nice
another option is to make up quick change tool holders
it takes time.... loosen the collet, remove the tool, grab the other tool, tighten up the collet, zero out the axises. all time consuming
no no, quick change holder
i.e. no collet, just a repeating holder
ZEROING out isn't the hard part
you get a bunch of quick change holders that repeat
set the height of each one manually once and store them in a table
change tool, call entry in table and be done with
Jymmm: did you consider tools with depth stops?
depending on the material I' using, I still have to zero oout to top of material
yes, but that's once per material and you can put that into your G54 Z offset
anonimasu how so?
03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/mesa_5i2x/5i20_vhdl/Makefile: makefile changes to support simulation as well as synthesis
ds3 unless I can atomate the whole not a lot of good it'll do me
Jymmm: then you need to set one tool
and the rest of the tool offsets are just to set in a table..
ideally just change the holder..
think anonimasu and I are talking about the same thing
I'm not seeing the benefit unless I have a quick change thingy/tool changer
Jymmm: well, dont you do toolchanges?
a collet stop would have the same effect
[07:54:26] <Jymmm> http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?pid=00926691000&vertical=Sears&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
but I hear they are wobbly
what kind of tools do you use?
there's also tormach
still for 29.99 heh
what do you expect?
tormach...aka the big vacuum cleaner ;)
ds3 you mean shank sizes? 1/4 3/8 and 1/2"
Jymmm: no, type of tools
[07:58:01] <anonimasu> http://www.tormach.com/Product_TTS.html
anonimasu Ah, straight shank here =(
i.e. do they all have welden flats or are they typical router tools like cove cutting, etc
stright/spiral flute, v tip, not many profiles
anonimasu how do they lock in?
think most of those are available with a weldon flat
prehaps just a screw on tool holder?
in your normal collet I think
so no quick release huh, damn
yeah, that flat area on an endmill is known as a weldon flat; lets you clamp on it with a set screw
Jymmm: what do you expect?
ah, gotcha. no dont have that
I'd try modeling it off a Tail tool holder
only catch is you can't run those in reverse :/
Jymmm: did you check how hard it is to do toolchanging?
like auto drawbar?
anonimasu what do you keep asking me redundant questions?
Jymmm: because you seem to have no clue about anything..
anonimasu and you have a problem with that?
yeah, it pisses me when people talk about stuff they have no clue about
No, I've never touched a BP, and I have never said/implied that I have.
power drawbar is simple, pneumatic with retainer knobs is not..
anonimasu so you everything you know is by ossmosis?!
I dont know that word
anonimasu absorbtion like a sponge out of thin air
on, because im so damn curious..
the movie learning to fly a helicopter in 30 seocnds
or diffusion with a pressure/concentration gradient
Well, so am I, so I ask questions. but you getting pissed off because I aks or don't know something is pretty fuckign rude if ya ask me.
If I acted like I knew something, yea sure THEN you have a right to be pissed.
no, I get pissed off because you keep on saying stuff that you have no ground for whatsoever..
it's not the fact that you dont know it's the fact that you seem reluctant to belive in what anyone else says..
no ground for what? knowing? learning? what?
you say "I have no idea how it works", but it's easy.
sO, I'm suppose to take everyone's word for it w/o knowing what they are talking about and not willign to explain?
no, but you could look how things work before making any claims about them
Jymmm: I dont talk about helicopters usually, because they dont interest me and I have no clue about them.
huh? You never saw the movie "The Matrix"???
Well, then wth are you babbling about?
You dont remember the scene where she learns to fly the helicopter?
Jymmm: we DO learn a lot by osmosis... but it doesn't happen in 30 seconds
You said you dind't knwo the word, I tried to give you an example .
working with machines, being around machines, you absorb knowledge
I know lots of things that I can't point at some specific place where I learned it
I just did
[08:10:49] <anonimasu> http://www.clamprite.com/images/drawbar2.gif
anonimasu: he's not gonna be able to use any kind of drawbar
its a router
jmkasunich: I know
jmkasunich: getting a automatic toolchanger is even harder on that
anonimasu: Explin this statement to me please ---> <anonimasu> no, but you could look how things work before making any claims about them
you will never have an atc on a consumer grade router, or for that matter a pro router
Jymmm: google is a good source..
jmkasunich they have them, but, not for my size one, maybe Les'
anonimasu: but, Explin this statement to me please ---> <anonimasu> no, but you could look how things work before making any claims about them
yeah, les were buying one i think he paid 1000$ for it..
anonimasu what claim did I make?
for an ordinary wood router?
usually they use a nut that goes over the end of the spindle to lock the collet in
you need to lock the spindle shaft and apply a wrench
jmkasunich oh, no, not a hardware off the shelf router, my confusion.
I thought you meant cnc router,
I meant the router on YOUR machine
anything else is utterly irrelevant
you mentioned pro router
pro router still means the basic handheld wood cutting tool
just not a harbor frieght pos one
(or sears pos)
jmkasunichl when you said "pro router" I thought you meant these --> http://www.techno-isel.com/cnc_routers/LCXSeries_CNCRouter.htm
and that has a tool changer
anonimasu what claim did I make?
Jymmm: acutally you didnt make any claims..
anonimasu Then why did you say that I did?
[08:17:38] <jmkasunich> http://bosch.cpotools.com/routers/plunge_routers/1619evs.html
thats what I meant by pro router
jmkasunich that'sthe VERY one I have
Jymmm: becase you do that 80% of the time
well, different model
you didn't get your router from HF?
anonimasu show me,
jmkasunich fuck no
there's hope for you yet
I gotthe sears pro, whic is REALLY the Bosch 2,.25 hp
but I get a extended warranty from sears
how much did it cost?
I wouldnt mind that one
jmkasunich the router $200, the 3yr instant replacement warranty $30
crap - 4:20 am
wtf am I doing still awake!
jmkasunich: I learn mt Hf LONG ago.... I bouoght a HF trim router, 5 seconds after I turned it on , no load, it started to melt the housing on it =)
There are SOME things from HF that aren't too shabby, but few and in between.
jmkasunich: this was a good buy for $40 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91778
jmkasunich got this from the flea market for $10, great for tiny things... http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93211
(not worth $50 though)
my mastercam post has a big.
anonimasu: found a big bug in mastercam ?
no, just in my post..
mastercam has a few bugs ;)
it omitted a g0 on a move..
after some M stuff..
anonimasu: design done, GUI done, now im putting togeather all the hal stuff, should be done in a couple of hours and then it's testing time :D
anonimasu: the net syntax is so so so so much better than what we had before
anonimasu: I can fit the entire thc config in 70 lines
anonimasu: and it's much simpler to understand and write
told you so :P
alex_joni: I have used it a bit before but I did not fully see how much better it is :D
Rugludallur: it's never too late to see the light
robin_sz, you elitist. ;)
time for tea and tiffin
although, there does seem to be a shortage of dabawallas around here
robin_sz: let do with the daks instead
robin_sz: Think down under :D
robin_sz: never mind, I messed that one up :P
* robin_sz thinks down under
robin_sz: you notice how everything looks upside down when you think down under ?
makes me think about that bug in the F16 software where it flipped upside down when it crossed the equator
Rugludallur: is that really true?
[13:33:41] <anonimasu> http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/3.44.html
'man counter' shows a pin counter.N.counts and is described as 'signed' while other docs show data like s32. does 'signed' mean 's32' ?
anonimasu: There was also a recent one where a couple of f22s crossed the international date line, all navigation crashed, had to fly back home by eye :D
that's not as spectacular ;)
anonimasu: nohh , but that one went live, the other one was cought in testing
hal components in gEDA so far http://imagebin.org/8080
some componens have in, outs, functions and parameters.... while ddt has an 'option' , is this a new attribute?
anonimasu, I'd ignore that F16 email you linked to, so many technical errors, I think its just some guy making stuff up
Is there a way to make a pin set a parameter ?
i used onshot for a configurable timer but the "width" or time is a parameter, since I want to enable users to set the time from halvcp that complicates matters
or is it easier to convert oneshot.width to a pin ?
the hal manual only shows this method to change a param 'halcmd: setp siggen.0.amplitude 5'
maybe we need a hal component 'setparm' and a pyvcp widget py-setparm
els ethe only method to change a parm is in a terminal ( afaict )
tomp: that's what I thought
tomp: I'm wondering if there is any harm in converting oneshot.width to pin though, setp should still work so ,,...
param rw float width=0 "Pulse width in seconds"; --> pin io float width=0 "Pulse width in seconds"; ??
i'd read up on the 'comp' code to see what 'pin' and 'param' meant
which is obfuscated by the fact that there's a comp named comp ... urfk argh bah!
tomp: hehe yup
read hal manual chapter 9. maybe easier to create a new comp Rugludallur_OneShot mimicking the original ... ?
or wrapping ?
tomp: I'm wondering if there is any downside to changing the original and submitting a patch, is there any negative impact of changing that to a pin since it would still work with the old configs ?
after it works there can be up & down sides :)
and keeping it separate is a way to test.. i think the 'comp' attack is good as 1st example shows how to supercede the original 'comp(arator)' from 'C' to 'comp'[the language] ( damn same names )
this is an orange... a what? what color is it? orange ...what does it smell like? orange ....what does it taste like? orange.... what shape is it? round... oh, that thing!
hey the original is in 'comp' format. not c, just dup it, rename it, edit pins to parms & try
tomp: looks the original exists in both formats
Rugludallur: in the past, on other components, we've changed some params to pins for this reason
tomp: I'm poking around
cradek: cool, we can try then
cradek: ok, makes sense
so definitely do that on your system and maybe ask jmk later if he thinks we should do it in the cvs trunk
robin_sz: I dont care really
tomp:cradek: works great now
wicked! good going!
tomp: I'll talk to jmkasunich when he is on and check if he's ok with adding it to trunk
i dunno why parms were different from pins, because some communication was always needed, so maybe consider that all parms become 'wireable' but stay parms. ( to preserve the uniqeness of params, i've been making parms comp.N.param.name & comp.N.param.value & comp.N.param.attr for stuff like counter.N.counts, counter.N.counts.value, counter.N.counts.s32 )
originally to set a value on a pin you had to use a constant block; setp only worked on params. today you can setp a pin so the distinction is maybe not necessary at all
i cant find the conversation jmk and i had in irc, but iirc he didn't want parms on pins, and graphically wanted params internal to the block of the component/driver ( something which i have no solution for in gEDA ). i didnt ask how he imagined changing the param in a graphic way.
alex_joni: happy easter
happy easter to everyone
tomp: same to you
i got a card from my sister, with a cartoon of a parade of a bunch of plumbers, in jeans, with their ass cracks showing.... it was a keester parade :)
tomp: there is an ongoing plan to convert all params to pins
easter? the ancient festival of chocolate
although there's no real schedule or goal for that..
* robin_sz googles for oister
not much ...
I meant oyster
ok, i make gEDA components with params as gEDA pins, but keep the 'param' names, and keep them separate from the pin-type-pins
around here, we had the festival of Eostre
Similar words, which it has been suggested are variations of Eostre's name, include Ostare, Ostara, Ostern, Estre, Ester, Eoster, Eostra, Eastre, Eostur, Eastra, Eastur, Austron, Aurora, and Ausos.
vernal equinox? pagan druidic rituals? it's a spring thing ya know.. the local thai monastery is getting ready for their water-throwing celebration 'Songkran' , a public wet-t-shirt party :)
[16:33:47] <tomp> http://www.all-thailand-exp.com/images/SKF.wmv
sanook di :)
ostara I think is the german name for it ... same thing though, went on in much of europe
as ever, if you can;t get the local populace to abandon their festivals, best to just tack your own festival onto the back of it and hope no one notices
tomp: we have the same ceremony actually
but not that extreme..
splashing girls/women with a couple drops of water :)
I dont think we do any ceremonies for anyting anymore ... church attendance is so low now ... like 1% of the population or something
at the water splashing festival, everyone smiles, in church... no one smiles.... take your pick
strangley ... the "official" figure is 7.5% attend regularly (once a week) ... our town has 9,000 people and2 churches.
that would imply around what? 800 people a week?
I dont pay that much attention, but at a guess I would say the most i have seen around on a Sunday has been like 10 or 12 or so ... certainly not several hundred, the rest of the week it is empty
I suspect the official figures are wrong, by a fair margin.
I just installed an ubuntu on a giveaway machine
it was for a 9 years old
he has absolutely no issues with it..
I would have signed up for a 5 year indentured servent to have a computer when I was 9...
When I was 9... TV was so boring... Everything was Watergate this... blah blah blah.
Although I was 9 when I was taught how to cast lead soldiers... ( I wish I still had the molds!)
I have some molds, where do you get the lead?
but today that might seem criminal... At least not ROHs compliant... :)
US Airforce academy service station.
got about 1800lbs
cast green plastic, have fun. Toy Story, hut hut hut hut
scrap meltal yards will let you take it for free much of the time
green wax... (for investment casting)
old pipes, roof material .. lead is everywhere
yes but you need to be careful
I suppose its quite hot
metalic lead is really safe
you seen that "trick" where you put your hand into a pot of molten lead?
lead salts ARE water soluble
and a common element used to harden lead is Arsenic
the trick is to use a damp hand, and make sure the lead is very very hot
photo trick - that lead is called mercury...
the water evaporates and forms a layer, separating your hand from the lead
no, real molten lead
its known as the ledenfrost effect
I'll run my hand thru oxy-acetylene flame and other crazy stuff - but I don't think you could get your hand wet enough - and even so you would be subject to steam burns.
[17:22:57] <robin_sz> http://www.wiley.com/college/phy/halliday320005/pdf/leidenfrost_essay.pdf
nahh molten let won't hurt that bad, It's not that hot
* Skullworks_PGAB would rather jump a school bus on a motorcycle.
Rugludallur, apparently, you need it really hot to work .. it has to stay molten, the LAST thing you want is it to solidify
I have had some splash on me from when water got introduced into a molten led pot, it's no worse than the oil from a deep frier
its not the temp ( about 800 degrees F ) its the volume of energy stored
nice picture of it being done inthat PDF
* Skullworks_PGAB will read it thru.
good day ottos
When I ﬁnally overcame my fears and brieﬂy touched
the lead, I was amazed. I felt no heat. Just as I had guessed,
part of the water on the ﬁnger vaporized, forming a protec-
tive layer. Since the contact was brief, radiation and con-
duction of energy through the vapor layer were insufﬁcient
to raise perceptibly the temperature of my ﬂesh. I grew
braver. After wetting my hand, I dipped all my ﬁngers into
the lead, touching the bottom of the container (Fig. 5). The
contact with the lead was still too brief to result in a burn.
most of the time I can't get near the furnace...
but thats the big out door unit, I guess the small electric one would work
robin_sz: the trick is to keep the time to a minimum
gents I don't know if you've seens my post .. working on a grinder.. and I'm wondering if there is any way to implement a laser micrometer or any other devide to messure the grinding wheel wear and implement in in real time to emc..? any ideas..?!
might be able to bounce a beam off the ground surface and using paralax calc the height of the wheel center.
what is the information for?
CNC control of a grinder
sounds like something for hal. you'd need to get the data from the micrometer into some card, maybe a big number, and based on some limit/threshold, change the height of the grinder spindle or do something akin to a tool change ( dress the wheel ) i figure you'd look at changes in the height of the wheel ( radial info) , maybe the edge... )
I was more thinking of using the /2 of the distance between the dreasing wheel and main wheel with torque sensor..?
the uber cheap method was to track the position of the diamond dresser
or what about putting a strain gage on the dresser and attempt a dressing operation
The diamond dresser location might work.. any of you have any ind of experience with cnc grinders..?
would classic ladder handle this kind of automation?
forgot to ask - is this a surface grinder or center grinder...
* Skullworks_PGAB had assumed surface.
a 5-axis tool grinder.. don't laugh.. :D
laugh nothing - thats a prime use for CNC
I've succesufully inmplemented my 5-axis cnc so I figure I'll push a bit further..
I can't think of a simple way to do this short of adding something like a reinshaw probe on its own 2 axis tracks.
your going to require such a fine detail.
not a easy job.. can't find too much info on this one..
I guess the first step might be to head to a tool show and see how the top dogs do it?
yah.. have to start somewhere..
you use this as a HSS or carbide grinder?
exactly.. something like the walters mini but emc powered..
* Skullworks_PGAB would be pulling my hair out.
I think this is were I would go shopping for an existing unit with a dead control to retrofit.
ya hopefully one has my name on it.. have to run thank you for the info.. will chat next weekend.. cheers..
hey... I made some buss bars... but I can't seem to solder anything to them... I've sanded them, and put flux on both parts... but the solder won't stick at all.
have a good one
do I need to tin the copper to make it stick?
sounds like heat issue to me too
big bars of copper are a pain because copper conducts heat so well
or - get some of that circuit board tinning solution.
I have that stuff...
so I guess I'll use it.
as my 100w gun won't do the trick at all.
need to use a torch - like sweating copper plumbing
did you clean the surface of the copper?
i.e sand it down with a fine grit paper
maybe swage the cable ends and bolt them to the bus? ( i dont think anybody solders to bus es in industry, they bolt to bus es ) i imagine the conductors to be attached are smaller bus bars or large cables ?
good point tomp, tap and bolt
use good oil - tapping copper can be fun...
I'm being just stupid...
I mayjust buy a butane torch to solder there sucks on.
* Skullworks_PGAB is cheap and lazy - uses brass for bus bars...
still won't solder after tinning them.
I may just get some 3/8" square brass to do this like Skullworks_PGAB suggests.
and put a 8/23 to bold the boards in.
would 1/8" copper be thick enough for a 4-40 screw?
time to mill down that bar, and drill/tap it.
If it isn't fun, why would we do it?
beause we have to?
this is SOOO going to be not enjoyable to tap.
just go easy - use the spindle in neutral to drive the tap and some good oil.
drive it in under power ;)
anonimasu, uh. YEAH!!! I'll run over there and do that now!
classic "do as I say, not as I do..."
<sarcasm>REALLY!!!! I didn't know that!</sarcasm>
damn it... too bad the pizza place is closed... otherwise I'd walk over for a slice.
well its easter, and we have no one else handy to throw eggs at...
culvers was closed today mmmm culvers
reletively local chain restraunt
well our ice storm has converted into a more friendly snow... So I'm still staying home...
ice storm? blimey, we are wandering around in tshirts .. the kids have been playing on the water slide ...
18C and sunny today here
UK - thats good enough for a MIRV.
[19:39:41] <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.scorched3d.co.uk/
omg, this is sooo wrong
[19:55:13] <alex_joni> http://www.vgcomputing.com.au/nshpRM749PA.html
check the prices for linux instead of winXp
it's even more if there is no os
order with XP and use DBAN
[19:57:41] <Skullworks_PGAB> http://dban.sourceforge.net/
linux will format the disk, no need to use another program
unless it makes you feel better
DBAN is linux based
cradek: Thought you might like the animated SVG in the topic
so much fun... ground a 4/40 tap to make it a bottoming tap. :) it sucks making... but wicked when finished... and then you want more
re: laptop OS
I read an article once that said the best "flatness" on a hand-held belt snader is one with a "graffite platen". The only graphite I can think of is either pencil, powder, or like golf clubs, is there some other form that I'm not aware of?
it comes in bricks
alex_joni wouldnt' that be carbon?
they are related
but I suspect you can get graphite into a harder shape
eric_u bricks huh? From what I gathered is sounded like a piece of graphite material.
isn't slate related?
[20:25:58] <Jymmm> http://cgi.ebay.com/MAKITA-Belt-Sander-GRAPHITE-CARBON-Plate-NEW-for-9924DB_W0QQitemZ330106479115QQihZ014QQcategoryZ20782QQcmdZViewItem
alex_joni so it is =)
it seems like a graphite plate iwould be harder to locate than a piece of teflon - and not sure which would actually be the better one
Jymmm: that is cool, but can we keep the topic EMC-related?
go to http://www.mcmaster.com/
and search for 9121K61
it says there when you machine it with EMC, use carbide tools
eric_u it actually says "...with EMC" huh??? ;)
had to keep it emc related
EMC Machine using diamond tools
cradek has changed the topic to: Welcome! EMC (Enhanced Machine Controller) is a linux-based opensource CNC control. | Latest release: EMC 2.1.4 | http://www.linuxcnc.org
Isn't graphite brittle? like a peice of glass?
Jymmm: ask tomp about it :)
anonimasu why tomp?
shit!! STRIPPED THE threads in one of the bolts.
Jymmm: because he's a edm guru..
and they use graphite for tooling
anonimasu Ah, cool. good to know.
hmm - tungsten / copper / graphite bond
Ouch.... 1/16" x 12" x 12" == $48
I wonder if a piece of teflon would work the same?
teflon is squishy
well, that wouldn't be too good for flatness =)
Jymmm have you tried lapping on a B grade granite surface plate?
Jymmm: well, I dont know if you can even machine gaphite..
if what's what you were going to do
Skullworks_PGAB The closest thin I have ato a granite plate is a sheet of glas I took from a photocopier.
anonimasu Just taking an idea from a makita belt sander and use it on a bench belt sander
I'm using 400 grit, and the spot weld pots don't make it too flat
get a 12"x18" and tape the paper down on the granite.
B grade is cheap
Skullworks_PGAB: What am I suppose to be lapping btw?
what ever you want a flat good finish on.
thick plate glass is flat enough for most people
needs to be 20mm or so really though
Jymmm: the graphite platen they are mentioning is a sheet of graphite impregnated fiber, IIRC
anonimasu, you certainly can machine grpahite, its done all the time in the die-sinker industry
robin_sz: did you read what I wrote?
robin_sz: Jymmm has an aluminium frame router..
" well, I dont know if you can even machine gaphite.."
robin_sz: "YOU" as in jymm
also the dust is hazardous..
well, I guess he can, but its not going to come out pretty if theres any movement in the machine bed
it can produce amazing detail ... which is good
if your machine is rock solid
and very unforgiving if its not I guess
I'm not wanting to machine graphite, just cut-to-size and mount as the platen for a belt sander
that sounds unlikely to work to be honest
grpahite is very soft
most commercial machiens use cast iron I think
robin_sz: Makita, Bosch, Delta is where I got the idea from... http://www.google.com/search?q=belt+sander+graphite&sa=Search+Google
[20:51:32] <jtr> http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=878-512
brinell seems to be at around 140 for graphite..
jtr thanks for the link
I'd think its like jtr said, some sort of grpahite impregnated fibre ...
pure graphite would not last long at all, and the black dust would make a right mess of your wood
Jymmm: Welcome. The sheet metal platen on my Crapsman hand belt sander was bent in a brake.
jtr That's what I'm talking about, but especially the spot welds that make a dimple
sand em flat with a belt sander! .... ;)
Turn the belt inside out! make it sand itself flat first. ;-)
the only "real" belt sanders Ive seen had cast iron beds from what I recall
robin_sz Well, I can't only afford "fake" belt sander
when I say "real" I mean "bloody great big three phase things that would take your arm off" ... so yeah, a home/workshop one is going to be different
How big are these dimples? How are they distributed - at the ends, in the middle?
You may have twist in the platen than would swamp any error from the dimples.
the cross pieces that are spot welded underneith, 1/4" diameter, not sure on the height
Jymmm: can you weld the spots and sand them flat?
I cna probably sand them down,
I'd check for bow and twist in the platen - I've got it on my table saw fence, made the same way.
jtr Not much I can do about that if it is, probably would make it worse.
I understand, but if you can accept the bow/twist, the dimples may get lost in the noise.
It's jsut the high spots that muck me up a bit. I thought the graphite thing might help minimize their impact.
have you guys used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Execution_Prevention
alex_joni I have it disabled
Jymmm: any reasons?
I can't find bad things about it online
doesn't seem to work
Depending on the size of the high spots, a dremel or a big fat mill file can be your friend.
alex_joni: that's a bit like openwall..
alex_joni: Just too many issues with XP "taking control" of things w/o any kind of logging or intuitive dialogs.
Jymmm: did it ever stop you from doing anything?
when I say doesn't seem to work I mean it doesn't stop buffer overflow attacks
eric_u: why not?
they just patched a buffer overflow last week
alex_joni: Example... I was testing a new AV proggie, and used a EICAR test virus, instead of getting a intuitive dialog box, XP said "Access has been denied for C:\eicar.com" no reaosn what so ever was given.
Jymmm: not something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/Data_Execution_Prevention_blocked_program.png
alex_joni: The purpose of the EICAR is to actually test AV programs, so if M$ is refusing access to the test file, I cna never use it for it's purpose.
alex_joni, no not like that.
does windows turn DEP off for microsoft programs?
eric_u: it was/is disabled by default on this install
* alex_joni is restoring an dapper vmdk
good thing I decided to save that.. saves me from a new install I hope
yay.. it still runs
133 updates though..
I failed to order new dell laptop this week
I WILL NOT buy one with vista. period.
we have ... 6 or 7 windows machines at work .. all XP, I just about understand it .. I dotn wantto learn some new crap
you have to go into the business class to get one with xp, I think
the one I want, a Precision M90 mobile workstation, is only with Vista
and the CAD/CAM I want to use with it is only certified under XP
there is no point seekign out a certified workstation, if theyve chnaged the OS
Actually there are many laptops with XP avail - since the mfg have cheapped out so much to be price competitive.
it needs to be solidworks certified
that many laptops don't meet AERO's min hardware spec
so M$ relented and allowed them to continue to ship with XP
sorta irrelevant, as it wont be running vista
side question, why solid works?
becuase its the industry standard?
Because it is the bomb!
does that mean if it is industrial standard to jump out of planes without parachutes, you will choose that too?
Solidworks isn't just engineering - its a sales tool now
robin_sz: mine is solidworks certified
still doesn't explain it
ds3, am I missing your point?
HP notebook workstation 8440
ds3 - there is nothing close to SW
alex_joni, im consdiering a Dell Precision M90 with fx2500
robin_sz: yes; I want to know what makes solidworks (feature wise) worthwhile; I do not care about what everyone else uses
robin_sz: ooh.. nice ;)
Skullworks_PGAB: in what ways?
this one's ati (fireGl 5200)
ds3, well, I live in the real world, soI have ot consider what everyone else uses ...
rapid part developement in solding model form
robin_sz: you mean paying customers of yours
who submit parts & drawings
Skullworks_PGAB: doesn't ProE offer that too?
once model fits the need a full multi view print takes only seconds to complete
ProE is... compost
ds3, basically, its sheetmetal capability rocks. its ease of use rocks, its ability to produce drawings of models, flat patterns, and eDrawings for viewing in 3D by costomers rocks
I looked at proE, it sucks.
Our compamy spent 6 months on a project in ProE
Could not make it happen
okay, those are the reasons I am trying to find out
outside consultant came in with SW and had the whole project done in 4 days
I have a set of 20 or so parts from proE this week ... supposed to acheive +- 0.2mm after laser and bending
they are +- 2.5mm out on blank size
4 days ? awesome :)
so it is not really the cad part, it is the plugin logic that gives it the value, robin_sz?
the Cad part is awesoem too
I candraw in SW 10 times faster than I can in autocad
even for 2d
I'm still learning - but what I have found so far has saved me weeks worth of work on some projects
and im quick in autocad
what about Inventor?
robin_sz: oh, just 10 times?
or for that matter, Alibre?
Plus it handles assemblies...
harder to use
subassemblies are great
that is where it really shines
robin_sz: I figures it'd be 1000 times;)
we tried using ProE, back to solidworks now
if only because the program doesn't tell you it's checking your license every 10 minutes
anonimasu, I am fairly fast in autocad, I drive it fromthe command line mainly
but SW ... its just so much faster
we built our segway RMP robot using ProE
this is interesting, I posed the same q to another person and he was all for ProE being able to handle details that vary by orders of magnitude (i.e. like a bolt on an aircraft carrier)
SW does that
I have some eprint files of the supercharger we made for a harley...
OK, so you have to remember to reslove stuff as featherweight on big projects
yes, but his argument is SW has problems zooming between the full picture and the details, i.e. crashing or taking forever
Skullworks_PGAB, you can supercharge a harley?
the drive replaced the case casting
that would have taken weeks with other cad
Skullworks_PGAB, one of my welders has a harley, bu the PTO is not working on it
Skullworks_PGAB, it drives OK, but the PTO slips, just as the baler is tying a bale usually
Skullworks_PGAB, but hes getting a nice "Screaming Eagle" 8 bladed reversible plough for it
Alibre is cheaper ... but, well, whats the point?
I suppose its good for students
makes sense for me
you know SW hat autodesk with a passion?
although it sux at 2D
robin_sz: if you actually have to buy a program, I guess there is a big point
Solidworks is one of those items you just byte the bullet and sign the check, because not having it costs more.
so ... you know SW hate autoDesk ... well, why does anyone EVER upgrade their copy of autocad?
theres only one reason as far as I can see
thats because people keep sending you files in the new verison you can;t open
so ... what did SW release?
an autocad plugin that allows any version of autocad to open any other version
did I win anything for guessing that?
OK ... so thats the existing users revenue stream gone
now what about new users?
say you just want a viewer?
eDrawings is the best free viewer
I use it all the time
SW have released an autocad viewer
OK, but what if you want to create 2D?
not just for acad.. most anything works
eDrawings is pretty cool
youve guessed it .. they have released a autocad-lookalike
and it doesnt require solidworks to be installed afaik
even down to the command line inteface and the layer tool
robin_sz: woo.. where?
* alex_joni runs off to get that
if you have any autodesk shares, Id sell them :)
autocad still has a huge base
but .. its revenue stream will be slashed now
[22:36:14] <alex_joni> http://www.solidworks.com/pages/infofor/AutoCADUsers.html
its not just war ... thats mass slaughter
oh.. the 2D stuff is free with any SW purchase :/
now... if they would only port some of these freebies to linux
? it was just free for a while ...
ah yes, the editor is payware now .. weird
3 licences for every SW seat
might have been some FTC strongarm going on behind the scenes.
it was just a bribe to get you to register for a while
[22:41:35] <robin_sz> http://www.dwggateway.com/
not supposed to dump ( give away free )
thats the autoDesk revenue killer
FTC does not have a sense of humor
good night all