and hurco was so fond of using red/white twisted pairs for everything...
yeah tell me about it
make lots of notes...
i did try that
you , or someone will need them someday
worked out better in the end to just take it all out then seperate all the wies and trace them all o whereever they go
iv been labeing things with a black marker pen
That KM3 I used to run is sitting there dead. - died about 2001
owned is content to use it to store vises on
I want him to sell me it... but he keeps ducking the question
why wont he
so - I ordered an IH mill
I have no clue
seems a lot of space to be taken up by a otherwise useless machine
yup - and he gets to pay property tax on it as it sits...
but no - he's content to pay out for a non functional space hog.
just hope i can turn my non functional space hogs into somthig usefull
I'm betting the mill will work out
the lathe should too its just a matter fo hoe much it coss
oh before i go
dont suppose you know much about the relay board in the hurco ?
what about it/
or if i can find wiring diagram for it
or info on the 11 pin relays on it
they are common
I might have the diagram in the next room
I have the KM3 book here
those relays are commonly called ice cubes
does it have wiring diagrams foor the board itself ?
first I want to post a pic - make sure you have the same relay board
ill not be able to check properly till tommmorow
OK - mine only has 8 sockets
8 relays ?
think mine has more
let me post a pic - see if it sparks your memory
the one in mine is quite big
ok guess my browser froze for a moment
thanks anyway tho
you could email hurco with the machines serial number - they might have a copy
migh do if needs be
ok - well sleep easy
got info on the motors by emailing the motor manufacurers
was good of em to raid the archives
gnight cheers for the help
great -sometimes you find a kind soul
good night all
good night alex
Anyone tried that new release of GCAM?
[01:52:04] <skullworks-PGAB> http://gcam.js.cx/index.php/Main_Page
03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: fix jogs with the arrow keys being too fast by a factor of 60
clearly lots of people are
I dind't ask if anyone was here, I ask if anyone was alive =)
i am alive!
IN MANY INTERESTING, UNIQUE WAYS
Anyone know of a source of smaller sized spindles by chance? Dremel sized, but quality.
* skullworks-PGAB is watching CAD/CAM training videos
can you deal with 50-60
ok, up to 20k
or maybe 30
no can do, dude
all the spindles I know of that small are ultra high rpm
what did you have in mind? air?
the spindles off of Moore jig grinders
they're like 2000 bucks
you can get em as low as 30
or as high as 175,000
I'm think more along the 50 to 200 range
I'd love to have a simple 30k spindle that holds 1/8 PCB bits
cradek: I was thinking up to 1/4"
skat bearings can do 30K iirc
that's an awfully big tool for 30krpm isn't it?
build a spindle housing - and use a trim router with belt or O-ring drive
my router does 25k
skullworks-PGAB no lathe
I hit Lowes tonight, they have a belt worn CO2 supply for air tools
no compressor needed
those will freeze up under continous use
* skullworks-PGAB ex roommate was a paintball freak
is something liek this any good? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92007
ex roomy kept 2 fill stations in his room
jymmm: define "good"
toastydeath no runout, no bogging down, has enough torque, etc.
that TYPE, not that specific brand
uses lots of air - has high T.I.R. - goes fast (if you use an inline oiler).
jymmm: you're not going to find something that is accurate in your price range
Total indicated run out
toastydeath wanna bet?
Jymmm, I suspect you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who will tell you anything from HF is "good"
maybe "OK" or "passable", but not "good"
SWPadnos read my lips... <Jymmm> that TYPE, not that specific brand
I dunno - the drin snake I bought worked like a champ
toastydeath it'll cost ya $200
i will break it
and i will bitch about the accuracy
well, you can buy a cheapo hand sander or a Porter-Cable. are they the same type because they look similar?
for 200 bucks
dude find someone with a lathe
you cannot, cannot, cannot find an accurate spindle new
for 200 bucks
a homegrown spindle is easy
you can find something that is within what you want to do
well, there's a guy who sells some on eBay that are supposed to be pretty good
"pretty good" in terms of what you want to do, sure
actually a precision spindle, no
then drive it with a sewing maching motor...
I've never used them, so I can't comment from experience
2 sets of skate bearings
a Proxxon collet and nose
8mm drill rod
this guy: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170091264234
matl for a pulley
toastydeath PAY UP SUCKER!
2 8mm nuts'
that's uh, mediocre at best
what about that pro version of the dremel... usually used with a flex shaft?
i use lathes with .0001 TIR for roughing
well, I'm pretty sure Jymmm won't be milling tool steel or titanium any time soon, so that spindle is probably fine for his purposes
toastydeath: and you grind on them too?
toastydeath oh go to your room!
since we don't know what diameter of work you do.... that TIR could just be what is barely acceptable ;)
[04:47:15] <Jymmm> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170081057970&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=170091264234&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&usedrule2=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget
ds3: it almost doesn't matter when you're discussing a spindle
cradek ^^^ 1/8" spindle
there are plenty of big bore lathes with low runout spindles
and there are plenty of small lathes with .0004
that looks like it would work really well for PCB milling
toastydeath: if you are working with 0.010 diameter parts, 0.0001 is just 1% run out... but if you are doing 1" parts....
looks like it could do 30k with simply a new pulley
ds3: TIR at the part
is not TIR in the spindle
or get your own motor ans use this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170081057970
those would be fine for PCB milling and drilling
my deal is that when someone asks for a precision spindle, you have to quantify what your application is
versus saying "i need a precision spindle" and defaulting to your application as the standard
because some of us assume you'll be needing real precision =)
i.e. that Moore dealy off the G18
[04:50:59] <Jymmm> http://cgi.ebay.com/TB-440AC-High-Speed-Precision-Spindle-25-000-rpm_W0QQitemZ170091264292QQcategoryZ57028QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
toasty - well before you go nuts on a spindle - remember the rest of the machine has to work with it.
skullworks-pgab: i'm aware
hmmm 100K spindle... does that require major hearing protection?
if there is slop in the vertical movement T.I.R. won't matter as much
ds3 WHAT DID YOU SAY???????????????????????????????????????????
that would sound about like a TV
maybe Haas spindles are crappy but it is pretty damn loud with their stock spindle at 6K
skullworks-pgab: again, this isn't a discussion about any machine, it's specifically spindle related
"Precise" brand spindles are quite.
I noticed a few for sale. thought about getting one for my BP
Have you guys seen the engraving vending machine in walmart?
too bad you can't rate the stupidity of ebay sellers
no it's a vending machine, takes dollar bills and engraves various pet tags while you wait
is that engraver imported from china?
or the tags
seen those at petco (or petsmart) but never at walmart
it's CNC, kinda cool but have to see all its details
* skullworks-PGAB will stick to using laser - its quicker.
speaking of which, what's a good non-ebay place for a cheap laser?
complete system or just an emitter/
emitter is fine
I don't know -but Keling is selling some cheap laser engravers
1 sec for link
don't feel like blowing a bunch of green at the crucible to learn glass blowing :/
[04:58:41] <skullworks-PGAB> http://www.kelinginc.net/LaserMachine.html
there is junktronix around here which I still need to call to see if they will see to me in person w/o ebay
ds3 I have the link at home they will sell it to you
Jymmm: in person?
cuz junktronix has some nice 1W 808 emitters
ds3 brand new
just need it to be "working"
aren't these keling ones the same as the import ones mentioned at CNC zone?
not sure - Keling does advertise there
looks like them
60w for $5300
the LG1200 is a 60W
I run a 60W
but we bought ours when laser was bleeding edge - with a price that made you bleed too
that sounds like that same stuff
1200mm x 600mm $8400
think it cost $128K in 1990
skullworks: how long of a lifetime you get per tube?
Motorola 68000 CPU 8mb ram - used a full 6ft high 19" rack mount chassis
I found a 48" 60W for $8k
Nd-YAg - 400hrs per flash tube
that's red, isn't it?
how well does it do on polished metals?
all you see is a little plasma ball where the laser impacts the material
most people use CO2's at 10um
Chrome Zippo's done all the time
Them BiG Ass Rodeo belt buckles too
what's the typical penetration on things?
I don't mess with that machine much anymore - trained the secretary to do it.
its mainly an et5cher
I have cut copper foil
cut traces on a PCB
2.7W for $200
nice... so at least 5-10 mils capable
I guess - I just loop the program if it doesn't cut thru on 1 pass
BTW - I also play music with it
so I guess copper pouring is a good thing? ;)
has a "Q" switch - I can program freq between 1 and 32KHz
which is constant wave mode
good for lighting cigarets
is there any special cooling for the 100% duty cycle mode?
not on mine
its on 100% anyway
03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: give the axisui hal pins correct initial settings
the CO2's want water cooling
lamp current gets reduced during power save mode but its on - it just does not come out due to the shutter being closed
lamp uses 10 to 22.5 amps @ 400V
yes it sucks power for only 60W ouput
how is the beam directed?
beam goes thru a beam expanding lense group which makes it about 8mm dia
then it hits a pair of mirrors which are on Galvos which direct the beam thru a second lense which brings the beam back to a .1mm max dia.
without the beam expander the mirors would be toast in under a minute
as is they get quite hot
BTW this is the same model laser that Mag industries used on there flashlites
I bet they use different equipment now
Company was bought out lately by Rofin Sinar
03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/control.c: fix stupid bug that forced all jogwheels to operate in velocity mode
03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/command.c: print a message if an attempted jog aborts homing
03jmkasunich 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/ (command.c control.c mot_priv.h motion.c): backport jogwheel velocity mode
can't find a belt/disc snader with cast iron table/disc =(
Dallur: Are you around?
heheh, ima machine a kittystab
(like, little kitty head shaped 2-finger brass knuckles, eyeball fingerholes, with ear spikies, so girls can protect themselves and have cute keychain things, simultaneously)
though arent thoose illegal?
and .. while we are onthe topic ;)
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-03-25.txt
generally speaking, the best defence is not being there :)
robin_sz: oh, you dont always get that option
the first two rules of self defence:
1) dont be there in the first place
robin_sz: I saw some movie that talked about slasking molestors with your carkeys/creditcard in the face then run away..
I cant remember where I saw that..
maybe on television
probably stupid advice to be honest
running away is a sure bet..
if it doesnt physically disable them from coming after you, it probably just annoys them ehough to want to harm you real bad
rule 3 is of course "make sure they are sorry they ever even set eyes on you" :)
heh, that's very hard in practice..
how long time should booting the livecd take?
it takes 2 minutes on my P4 2000
on my PII 233 it takes 10 minutes
my box dosent boot :/
it's a P3 1.2
intel i845e chipser
it locks up when X is loading
can you start the ram-test
it's done in 30 secs.
it's a p4 celeron 1.6 actually
it looks like there's something wrong with the cd..
do you have tested the cd for errors
bit it completes the scan..
how does memtest work?
it should read "pass 1" when you've run it right?
you canrun it overnight
anonimasu: it writes a known pattern of data to memory, then reads it again
mschuhmacher: I dont see why it should break..
it writes values to the RAM and compares the result
anonimasu: it looks something like this when running: http://www.memtest.org/pics/i875-big.gif
jepler: got any good idea? it looks like it starts x then loads loads loads loads
like a read error on the cd..
it's a new cd that I just burned
and I checked the md5 before writing..
and verified the disc..
try booting in "safe video mode"
then checked the integrity of it on the machine
that's what im doing
I get to the screen with nautilus and stuff
then nothing more
beats me then
maybe I need another graphics card.
or fresh cd..
*grasping for air*
it passed the test twice now
have you booted any version of ubuntu on this machine before?
you could try the official cd instead of the linuxcnc version, if you have free bandwidth
can you turn off the splash?
I have a copy somewhere
yes -- if you hit F6 you can edit the commandline to remove "quiet" and "splash"
it looks allright.
it starts gdm..
never ever rock a cd reader.
10 minutes until I have a normal ubuntu
jepler: is the axis display a separate widget?(the preview)
anonimasu: it is not written in a way that it is easily separable from the rest of axis
that's too bad
* jepler wanders off to make breakfast
how much memory do you need for the livecd?
I started it with 160 MB but not the current version
I think 256 should suffice
I cant remember how much ram I have in this box..
If you have not enough RAM, you can test the Puppy-Linux EMC-Live
[14:04:41] <mschuhmacher> http://dsplabs.utt.ro/~juve/emc/
oh not a big deall
I can go to work and fetch a spare stick..
it's too bad the livecd doesn't warn you about inadequate RAM
or .. use a CDRW and have a swap partiton on cdrw ;)
the new kind of sdram..
a new machine with only 128?
1gb is a minimum
blasphemy ... who's trying to sell that?
well, I suppose mroe would be usefu;
when you look at hte cost of ram, the cost of CPU speed, the cost of faster disks ...
you get more performance with a slightly slwoer CPU and a bit more ram ...
he's already got 1 Gb
I guess he needs more like 1 GB
SWPadnos, nope, he said 128mb
actually, he just said 128 :)
thats painfully inadequate on a new box
and RDRAM is painful anywhere
robin_sz: stop whining
this isnt a new box.
yeah - didn't Intel stop using it?
it's DDR pc2100
and rambus is mostly out of business or something ...
ok. DDR is much easier to find. RDRAM isn't
rdram is easy too..
but not _here_ and now
need to go to work and look..
you can use the faster PC2700 afaik
I have neither.
its so cheap now, we basically went through the PCs at home and work, slung out the various small sticks and made them all 1gb ... it was a good and useful performance upgrade for minimal cash
I think I have a 256 in the router at work..
the going rate seems to be 30 eur for a 512mb stick
Yeah, But I just dont have any..
even if they are free it dosent help me.
what a pain.
now with more memory..
* anonimasu upgraded to 512
* anonimasu upgraded to 512
anonimasu:does it work?
it booted further
but my good disc is ruined..
so I'm going to record a ubuntu..
and just install packages
[16:31:11] <jepler> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bad_Jokes_and_Other_Deleted_Nonsense/ASCII_cows
no luck with ubuntu
checking the cd now
[16:38:17] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL0u2jLpVuE
[16:43:50] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfmbblWDLh0
anyone know about GE motor relays ?
my hurco is filled with CR305BO relays
trying to find wiring details
* skullworks-PGAB just found a huge ESD bag of L298N chips in his mailbox :]
been working on the hurco today
but not getting the power pbu light on the servomate
just doing cleanup or under power?
so checed the power and its not getting any on the main feed line(servomte ha too)
has two iput feeds even
Your in the UK?
traced it back and the power goes to a relay
yeah i am
via big coil
its a GE CR305BO relay
The land that has a fuse for everything... (actually a smart system)
so if were to apply 115 v to the relay that would start it up no ?
seems to be filled with a string of ever growing relays
OK the Hurco uses both panal buttons to start the amp
WMain disconnect on;
yah but i dont have any panels lol
power on (far right button)
consol is allready gone?
didnt do anyhing
thats a latching relay - not sure how to trigger it otherwise
well it has a red white twiste pair goingto it
and its a 115v coil
only requires a momentary closed to fire up
you have a 110-120V source in the cabnet?
has 2 coils in the cabinet
and a coil outisde
outside coil does 415v to 220
the inners do 220 to 115
transformer - or the power "conditioner"
one of the coils (slightly smaller one) is linked up hard wire
are you running off 220 direct?
nice to have high V available
the bigger one feeds the servo and has that relay between the 220v and the coil
high V scares me
that latching relay powers the servo amp - but is also part of the E-stop chain
yeah it has 2 115v wires either side
one would be on and the other off
E-stop must be (open?) to work. (I honestly don't remember if E-stop is open or shorted on the Hurco system)
Each CR305 contactor is furnished with a normally open auxiliary
contact for use as a holding interlock in three-wire control circuits
no estops are connected at the momet
when E-stop is active it dumps all the power it the servo power supply into some sort of load, drains the Cap in like 1.25 sec or less.
I would want to rig a deadmans E-stop switch while testing...
the only things connected are the main voltage feeds
yeah i will
im just trying to get the stuff powere up first
if it goes horribly wrong ill ill main power
standing right next too it
oh yeah what does the cant follow joint 0 error mean?
feoc: it means that the requested position and the attained position of "joint 0" (the X axis on a traditional 3 or 4 axis mill) were too far apart
do you mean "following error on joint 0" ?
feoc: in a stepper system, it means you've misconfigured emc. on a servo system, it can also mean that the servo amp has failed.
yeah that woul make sense
servo amp isn on
right ill be back later
box is installed now
When homing can you turn off the go to zero after homing?
I think the only way to turn that off is to not use a HOME_OFFSET
but I'm not positive about that
that's a scary thing..
well, the definition of homing is going to home position, so it makes sense to do that
homing means setting the coordinate system(machine) to whatever the home offset is..
ok - "aligning physical and software corrdinate systems"
anonimasu: do you have home switches?
jepler: I will the day after tomorrow
anonimasu: so you want the position at the end of the homing sequence to be the same as the position of the switch?
if so, I think in that case you want HOME (position to go to) to be the same as HOME_OFFSET (location of the switch)
jepler: I dont want emc to move my machine from the homing position to the machine zero position
but I'd like to have my offset/home position at another place..(center of table as example..
you've looked at the diagrams here? http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/config/ini_homing/index.html
no, I were just looking for a doc :)
Center of table... Okuma style.
or well where my fixture zero ends up as when I'draw parts..
when you home a machine your defining G53
the set a offset in G54 to tell where your fixture is.
then it shouldnt really matter..
though I'd still like the option to have the coordinate system be zero at the center of the table..
without moving there..
it could be really stupid and scary like on Okuma lathes...
that dosent mean that I want to go there either way.. ;)
anonimasu, "absolute" coordinates shouldn't have to change. there are like 9 coordinate offset systems available
skullworks-PGAB: I can imagine the crashes..
X/Z0 is the far left corner of the machine casting...
SWPadnos: also, does the last coordinate system get saves?
in fact, if you change what true zero means, you also have to change MIN_LIMIT and MAX_LIMIT, since the soft limits are relative to "machine zero"
if I kill emc/poweroff..
in later versions, position is saved, but I'm not sure about coordinate system (though that would make sense since poisition is pretty useless without knowing which coordinate system it's for)
SWPadnos: so is there a table, that you can store your offsets in?
if you power off - even if the G54 is saved - machine may be off by what ever repeatable amount off error when re-homing the machine.
AXIS does it, I think. I'm not sure if it's in the GUI or the underlying EMC system though
unless you have encoders with an index channel
but I do :)
then homing will be very repeatable.
and power off won't be an issue
actually what machine position is is never interesting..
it's always the offset that is..
anonimasu: I wasn't around for the first part of the discussion... but what you seem to want is easy to do
jmkasunich: I guess it's not a issue, ignore what I said..
I often use G53 moves for tool change position when I have large fixtures that would be in the way.
that's what I want..
if you want zero in the middle of the table, and the switch is 10" away, you can set home_offset to 10"
only use machine coordinate system for toolchanges and stuff..
if you also set home = 10" then the machine won't move after finding the switch
ah, that's nice
or you can set home=9.95" if you just want to move off the switch a littel bit, etc
whatever you prefer
jmkasunich: I heard robin say something that there was some way to inject commands to the interp is that true?
I dunno, I don't know much about the interp
sorry is im hopping between subjects fast ;)
do you mean MDI mode?
that sends commands to the interp...
for doing toolchanges
I'm not keen on using the hal stuff to fake motion.
oh, you mean movement during a toolchange
you won't be able to use the interp
as far as the interp is concerned, its right in the middle of a command (the M6), so it can't be processing additional commands
hm, so, how do you do it?
*looking at the wiki*
[18:42:49] <anonimasu> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ToolChangerImplementation
depends on the machine
there is a tool change position that the machine can be told to go to prior to the change
but that doesn't help much for a rack type toolchanger (where the machine moves from slot to slot to pick up the right tool)
well, if that kind of stuff mentioned in the wiki works..
I prefer to define my own location as a G00 move the line before the M6.
yeah.. the safe height..
or well retract height..
that's pretty standard.. :)
if you can use a G-code macro for the toolchanging
you can even use the TXX as offset for each tool..
This because most of the early machines I used were CNC knee mills and you had to find a spot that gave enough clearence.
like between 2 vises
* anonimasu nods
or centered over a T-slot
Thats one think I will really like on my X3 - being a table top "bed mill" I won't have clearance issues.
the machine I'm doing toolchanging on has a long Z axis..
so clearance isnt a issue :)
I found out that I need a toolchanger badly
all parts need more then one tool :)
all I make :D
what kind of spindle/
a homebrew one
going to rest
"When the XY-plane is selected, program G2 . . ."
"The axis words are all optional except that at least one of X and Y must be used."
???? Why did they do this? ? ? ?
G03 i-.5 should be a valid command.
got the servomate running
they went nuts before i connected the tachos
I may have to set my post process to output all coordinates for all moves to get this.
tachs - I bet!
once i connected em up i was able to control he motors usin a 6v batt on the signal inputs
neat - and just swap polarity for direction?
how fast @ 6v?
fairly fast actually
is your manual draw bar ? tool change buttons working?
only prob im getting is the Y axis seems to creep slightly
thats just a trim pot tuning issue - by the LED's on each axis card
manual draw bar ?
yeah it's a manual drawbar for now
doesn't it have a released button?
skullworks-PGAB: yeah thought that might be the case might have gotten knocked
I didnt find any retainer grippers when I made the drawbar..
anonimasu; Sorry - was refering to feoc's Hurco
BIG BED mill
[19:38:32] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Pzk-TyMSQ
I'd guess about 4 tonnes
about 3 ton i think
anonimasu there's a couple of ways to do tool changer the easy one is pick and place with subprogram's for each position
3 1/2 maybe
if you have enough room on your table
Alex - I think you must have spent too much time lately stairing at "C" code source...
skullworks-PGAB: in my own defence I didn't find it myself :P
or are there plans for a programmable sausage?
skullworks-PGAB: maybe a HAL sausage
roltek: that's ugly..
roltek: unless you can implement the changer macro as a integrator..
roltek: oh I'm designing a changer arm and a carousel..
that's the easy 1 next is drum run in and out by aircylinder
how complicated do you want to get
control wise I dont care..
mechanical bits and pices is trickier..
you will when you make it and it hang's up like all tool changer's do from time to time
why would it do that?
get's they all do
that's a design issue..
been in machine tool industry for 25 years and did not see a machine that did not hang up
I find that very odd..
no design issue you have to be able to get out of it
I dont get what you mean by hang up..
what if a chip gets inside your coolet
and tool doesnot seat all the way
what would that do to the linear feedback of the changer arm?
most changer arms don't have feed back
prox switch for in position
old ones had lead and lag switch's
the plc I'm using has encoder inputs.. also
the main issue is mounting the changer arm
roltek: you can even do it without feedback..
arm moves in the puts the tool in spindle.. arm moves down and engages the tool clamp again..
then checks if there's still a tool in the gripper and sends off a alarm..
though I have no idea how close the tolerance are for the retainer knobs. I know I've seen them before..
you don't have to use arm makes thing more complicated drum would be best
I cant fit a big drum..
I want a changer arm and a tool magazine..
minimum 5 tools.. perferably 20..
arms are usaully all mechanical
also mounting a drum is much more complicated
this isnt on a big machine..
usaully drums are mounted on ways that move in and out with air cylinder
drum is alot esierthan arm to make
machine picks tool with g code
my machine moves the table not the spindle..
and I think I changer arm is much nicer because you dont need the tool rack as close to the spindle..
does spindle have z move
Roltek is right ALL machine will hang up a ATC at some point.
true but more complicated
best machines have manual recovery easier than electronic
im pondering implementing that.. later
though moving the table isnt a problem either..
Okuma had nicest ATC in that respect - allowed single stepping either forward or reverse.
just for toolchanging..
it's not like I'm going to be running production day and night..
k&t have elctronic pain
dewoes have manual
roltek: yeah, but you can minimize the stuff that happens when a toolchange breaks down..
*looking for air motors*
OKUMA has like 24 steps for a tool change - being able to single stepthru it, step back then step forward is very handy.
that's pretty brutal
not surprising though
IIRC the mazak at cnc workshop has quite a few steps
real machines have a tool library :)
they're not numbered or anything tho, so I don't recall how many
I were just going to say that :D
robin_sz: you beat me to it..
a small obe would be nice
not too big
I dunno, 300, 400 tools maybe
go buy one
Ive seen em with ~200 tools in the library
and 24 in the main turret
Okuma's are great machines - to bad there hardware is so off the wall strange that it would require replacing all the electronics and motors to upgrade to EMC2.
robin_sz: well, anything beats changing tools by hand
what is max tool's used
I dont know..
more then one?
have to know max to design carasel
say 20 as a example..
fairly big drum
either side mount or top
side mount and a changer arm to change the tools..
your shanks are NT30 or cat30 or BT30?
built as completly seperate unit from machine tool
that's why a changer arm is a better idea..
they are 50mm at the bottom with nut..
[20:24:10] <anonimasu> http://www.stm.cz/kat_nast/iso30.htm
problem keeping them aligned
Since ISO 30 is not listed in tool catalogs I have... does the flange have a groove around it?
there are both manual and atc ones..
[20:25:21] <anonimasu> http://www.holthaus.at/inv-wkz/703.jpg
ok thats a CAT type
cat 30 correct
So - next question is what is the largest Dia tool you use?
03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/ini/emcIniFile.cc: check for values first, not only for literals. LINEAR_/ANGULAR_UNITS = 1.0 should still be valid..
guesing 1.5 or 2"
drum just got bigger
There is also the option of keeping adjacent pockets empty...
I was about to suggest that
that's probably more sane..
03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/ini/ (emcIniFile.cc emcIniFile.hh): run dos2unix, no other change
let the plc keep track of tool diameters..
true changer has to handle weight of tool
im looking at drum size as we speak..
03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/libnml/inifile/ (inifile.cc inifile.hh): run dos2unix, no other change
now you just do a simple hole circle and fid out what size disc you need for the carasel
you ever seen how Haas did there old tool changer?
its dirt simple
same for FADAL
is tool changer going to put back tool in any spot or where it came ffrom
big drum on top..
fadal was owned by k & t
[20:32:59] <anonimasu> http://www.haascnc.com/images/options/vmc/SMTC4040.jpg
for a while
not sure when KT bought them
haha.. I totally misunderstood that "owned"
mabe late 80's
then Kerny & Trecker also owned them abit IIRC
Gidding & Lewis
true was up at g & l what a joke
they did have a 300 foot cnc bed mill though
anonimasu: - no - the old Haas side mount - no arm
skullworks-PGAB: I havent seen them..
you seen the FADAL type?
nearly the same
did the drum just move in and out
almost 1m in dia..
for 20 tools..
450 or so for a 16
rides on 2 vee rails
that's exactly right..
used a stepper to index pockets
sounds easy to me
think the FADAL used 2 rods with bushings
and an air cylinder
to move in & out
most top drums used round and bushings
just used a limit stop bolt
there is sooo much slop in thoses - but they work just fine
see ya later guys
for my little mill I dont think I need that many tools but for the big mill at work..
i remeber those big mazaks with the chain of toolholders
to get a arm working nicely I need to draw up the column..
to see the bow I need to get the changer into envelope
an arm type is going to be a SERIOUS project!
night alex - sweet dreams of talking sausage
skullworks-PGAB: im not looking for blazing toolchanges, but with a small machine making the other kinds are very hard..
skullworks-PGAB: seems like the tool magazine is as complicated as the actual changing
thats why I think you'ed be best to do the side mount with about 12 tool capacity. - Won't be fast, but will cover 90%+ of the programs you run.
you have no idea how small this machine is..
I cant fit 12 tools in a carousel next to it.. has to be \ to the side..
how small is it?
30 taper gives me a clue
[20:53:28] <anonimasu> http://www.anglo-swiss-tools.co.uk/Resources/SV13.JPG
OK - I've seen a slightly larger version of that type.
Leblond used to make it...
after Makino bought them it got phased out
it's a schaublin :)
ram moves for "Y", table for X/Z ?
extremely solid machines
that makes things fun - sort of
have you considered a rack on each end of the table?
yeah, but that limits my travel..
say 4 tools lined up in Y
the stuff I do requires the end of the y axis..
both + and -
that shouldn't be a problem
your going to loose
I figure I'd use the Z travel for the toolchanging stuff to ge the tool/workpiece far away enough
*feels like he's just obnoxious* but toolchanging is pretty much a pain :D
but with the racks on each end of the table you get automated tool change - and you could dowel them so you could remove them to do larger parts with manual tool changes
and it would be cheap!
* skullworks-PGAB would be allready spending the money saved on more toolholders...
hello I'm new to emc and can't type or spell but i have DAH LIH with a atc and was wondering if emc can work the atc seeing that the controler now reads punched paper
Wow paper tape!
what control is it?
like an old Fanuc 3 or 5?
not real shour but the servos are fanuc
and the simple answer would be yes EMC could do it - But it will be a job to program it in Classic ladder.
ok great i do have some knolage ot the slc500
yellow cap motors I assume?
i do not remember it all in the yard under a tarp and i have not hade much time at home latly
* skullworks-PGAB steps away to take a phonecall.
is there a servo i/o card that anyone would recomend
Guest573: there are several cards that do that..
but I havent used either..
mesa does one vital systems does another(motenc/motenc lite)
anonimasu - that half the arm (done in Solidworks?)?
sensor on the side..
lock i the centre..
though I have neither of thoose as parts.. so I cant place them there..
skullworks-PGAB: yeah it's sw.. :)
Guest - You best bet would likely be the Mesa 5i20 with some add on card ( 0-10v analog)
though the changer is a bit wrong..
skullworks-PGAB: there should be a pocket around the tool > <
maybe an additional I/O card as well
that lets it down into the toolchanger..
ok thanks i looked at there www. i just was not shour about all i need
a bit, so that tools without lock wont fall out..
cut the profile with a 120 deg cutter
from each side
thar kind of cutter do you mean?
I were thinking a 20mm endmill..
* skullworks-PGAB is hunting for a pic
10mm, that's enough to give me the radius'es as drawen
the only important one is in that neck.. to let the sensor locknut have a flat face..
skullworks-PGAB: im not happy with it though..
for it to be right it needs the changer pocket to be / /
but I need the arm radius for it..
* skullworks-PGAB thinks the Kennametal website is useless.
I have the Kennametal cutters...
HF finally paid off... Bought the speed controller from them, took the shopvac from 9a to 5a. laptop, drivers, router, and shopvac running take 11A total!
they work great but they don't have anything usefull online it seems
skullworks-PGAB: though if I have a linear axis for the arm forth and back it can be done..
* skullworks-PGAB thinks of the startup sequence in the Apollo 13 movie.
skullworks-PGAB pretty much =)
But, at least I don't have to crawl under the house now.
OK - I give up for now.
I'll just stop by the shopt later and take a pic
I can't run the router at full speed 25K setting 6, but I can at 20k setting 5.
you have a tach?
I got a deal on a tach on ebay stores.
I guess I could use the wattmeter to see what it draws at certian settings.
Heh, now I can even calculate and charge for the electricity =) lol
screw charging by T&M, I'll charge by the KW!!!
hmm ... still having spot-welder fun
In case you're interested, these work really well. We also sell them at work http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93519
Volta, Amps, VA, Hz, and KWh
pF too, but I don't know what that is.
pF is power factor on that meter
* skullworks-PGAB just sent Kennametal a nastygram about there websight...
Jymmmm, as resistor on the mains would have a power factor of 1, the current and the voltage are in phase
robin_sz and in layman's terms?
that was laymans terms
ok, dumbass terms then
an inductor (like a motor) would have a lower power factor
because the current and voltage are not in phase
say you connected a big capacitor to the mains right?
hmm do I really want to know how much power my computers are using...
it would draw a shed load of current
(enough to heat one room very well)
but (assuming it is a perfect capacitor) .. it would not get hot, right?
I'll take your word for it =)
so ... lets see ... if its not getting hot, its not using power ...
indeed, your electric meter woudl agree and probably not go round
so ... its got 110Vac across it ,... its drawing 10A say, but not using power ...
so, pF is sorta like inductive load on the line?
well, because the current is not in phase with the voltage on the line, it kinda doesnt get multiplied
with a resistor, like say a fire element it does ...
typically a motor has a pF of around 0.8
so it might draw 10A at 110V but only conume 880W not 1100W
robin_sz ok, so if pf is 0, I'm gathering you're fscked somehow
well, sorta, yeah
say you want a 10HP motor ...
for your lathe right?
7460W that would be
ok for your router
so ... you think to yourself ..
7460W / 110V ...
67Amps ... lucky me .. thats just big enough for the supply I have here
but .. no ..
the motor turns out to have apower factor of .8
you'll need 83A to run it ...
it will still only draw 7460watts though, 10 hp, even though its using those extra amps
its not such a big deal in domestic use
but a pain in industry .. some gear has really low power factor ...
ok, so it's basically loss on the line is a sorta twisted way
volts x amps x cos(angle between them)
basically, if it gets out hand
you buy capacitors to hang in there and bring it back closer to 1
like this poxy spot welder of mine ... its pullign close to 200A, but its pF is crazy low, so I might buy a few caps to hang in there with it .. the current shodl come down to more like 50A max
ok, I get a general idea now, will read up a lil more on it.
so the adding of the caps "balances" the line which reduces excessive load?
it balances out the inductive current with some capacative current
if you add the right amount it looks just like pure resistor current
* Jymmmm sees a dim light shining now =)
knight to kings 3
* robin_sz wonders if anyone actually does postal chess anymore
QUESTION: What will a machine do (using EMCv2.1.3) with a G84 command?
oh it's a tap cycle? it won't work
"This code is currently unimplemented in EMC2. It is accepted, but the behavior is undefined."
03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: give the axisui hal pins correct initial settings
03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/debian/changelog: .
So how hard is it to get a simple G84 added? feed to Z depth and reverse and feed back to R.
by summer I hope to have real rigid tapping working
for use with floating tension/compression tap holder.
it may or may not be G84 (I understand G84 is usually not a rigid tap)
have you tried it? G84 may already do that
G84 is also rigid tap - but uses a M29 to indicate sync vrs m3
robin_sz sibera and africa perhaps?
ok, but there is no M29 in ngc, so that part is all up in the air
does tapping have a dwel at z bottom before reversal of spindle
not really - but there is lag in the system unless you are rigid tapping.
Regular G84 does not apply spindle accel/decel - its just off/on
Rigid tap syncs both RPM and feed - good spindle control is needed to hit your depth target perfectly.
i'll have to check some books. they will not specify a dwell in the g-code but i bet its there
agreed but there has to be something on bottom before reversal
or are they running like cnc gear hobber where 1 spindle is run phase lock loop to another
In theory you could just drive the spindle with a off/on and read spindle position (encoder) and sync the Z to it.
but you may overshoot or undershoot due to tap friction and sindle decel rate.
true and the one of the reason for ridgid tapping was for higher rpm's at spindle because of better rigidty
with end mill holders
I can still tap faster with a tapmatic head...
agreed but than problems tool changing
#4-40 @ 4000rpm
they go thru the ATC just fine
but cost too much
but spindle has to have arm to grab and might get in the way of other tools
Mine have a short arm which when up in the ATC is pointing towards the center of the ATC.
i had 1 on 50 taper spindle stuck straight down
I have not worked with 50 taper
kt's most 50 taper
lerman_ is now known as lerman
I use CAT40 mainly - 10K-12K rpm
we use only cat 40 now cheaper tool holders
KwikSwitch 200 on the old Hurco.
03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/control.c: backport M51 fix
03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/debian/changelog: M51 fix
03jmkasunich 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/debian/changelog: jogwheel velocity mode
hmmm, that reminds me, must get back my tapmatic head from $mate
I have a 30X unit for drill press work.
want to get some NSM head for the X3 cnc project
Am I seeing some formating errors - or is this as intended?
[23:23:09] <skullworks-PGAB> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/tool_compensation/index.html
starting below the "Programming Errors and Limitations " list.
yeah - and [width=3in]
i suppose it was intended to be [G41][t]0.4 , tho previous discussions say the value is the INDEX into the tool table , not the offset . eg [G41][t]23 for radius comp of tool #23
oh, its some markup language scraps
same page says "EMC is very picky about the radius it computes from I,J coordinates, and they must match at the beginning and end of the move to within 10^-11 internal units, so you will have lots of problems with arbitrary arcs. " thats pretty picky when machine precision (and the gcode being interpreted) is often 3 or 4 decimal places.
I been using I/J for years due to simpler reverse engineering of any errors.
skullworks-PGAB: I still need to try my tapping head
some swedish brand..
looks looks like a tapmatic
Remember - many of the manual ones feed out 150% faster!
you mean for manual machines?
well - like may Tapmatic 30X
why should I remember that?
because if you try to use it with a cnc you will need to adjust the feed out...
g1 z-10 f10
anonimasu_get is now known as anonimasu_
I'd use the cycle for it..
saw a guy using a procuner head in Mach - he busted a few taps figuring it out.
I'm still saving mine up for when I need lots of holes
scared to break it
I made a plate back in 91 - 27" x 16" x 1.5" steel, with a 1/2" x 1/2" grid of 1/4"-20 holes...
Its a ground subplate I use to hold panels for engraving.
I need a plate like that really badly
actually I dont need lots of holes..
I just need it super flat
with location pin holes for fixtures
I got Hot rolled - did the pattern then sent it out for blanchard grinding.
its got about .0008" bow in the center.
stress releive it too
plenty good enough
that's pretty much :/
thats part of why I used HR - less warpage
skullworks where you out of
Colorado Springs, CO
(in the shadow of Pikes Peak)