#emc | Logs for 2007-01-09

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[00:00:07] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: I dont want a H machine as they take up a shitload of space..
[00:00:08] <SWPadnos> I was thinking of a triangle stiffener that goes up to some point maybe 50cm above the rail (on the same pillar that the shaft is attached to)
[00:00:23] <anonimasu> that adds lots of weight also :/
[00:00:24] <SWPadnos> a sail-like shape
[00:00:33] <anonimasu> have to move this stuff around also
[00:00:50] <SWPadnos> weight doesn't matter - that only changes the actual shape. it's stiffness you need, for when the motors are vibrating the machine
[00:01:02] <anonimasu> hm yeah..
[00:01:17] <SWPadnos> in fact, if you use a hollow tube, you'd probably be better off wfilling it with sand/concrete than leaving it light and empty
[00:01:47] <SWPadnos> -w
[00:02:12] <anonimasu> going to use a pair of thoose farnell stepper we talked about before..
[00:02:16] <anonimasu> for moving..
[00:03:06] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: this will go into 2 linear slide blocks..
[00:03:06] <SWPadnos> that makes the anti-resonance even more important relative to mass
[00:03:25] <SWPadnos> (steppers, not 2 slide blocks)
[00:03:34] <anonimasu> yeah, but for the X axis..
[00:03:47] <anonimasu> \ shape for the beam to mount on..
[00:03:52] <anonimasu> /\
[00:04:03] <anonimasu> with a bit of spacing..
[00:05:39] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: I figure as the rails are really stiff that'll take care of resonance..
[00:06:08] <SWPadnos> one more thing for the simulator ;)
[00:06:12] <anonimasu> yeah
[00:06:20] <anonimasu> going to work on it tomorrow..
[00:06:21] <SWPadnos> do you have the full version or just the one that comes with SolidWorks?
[00:06:27] <SWPadnos> (that looked like SW anyway)
[00:06:32] <anonimasu> ^_^
[00:09:11] <SWPadnos> well, I've got to run to Radio Shack and see if they still sell photodiodes
[00:14:02] <SWPadnos> bbl
[00:14:55] <anonimasu> laters
[01:11:30] <SWPadnos> nope. apparently not, unless you want an IR photodiode :(
[01:16:19] <skunkworks> I supprised they had any - btw - thier website tell what they have and if they have it in a store near you ;)
[01:16:44] <skunkworks> but don't tell my boss that ;)
[01:16:52] <ds3> ratshack only have 1 IR phototransistor
[01:17:37] <SWPadnos> yes, and no visible light ones
[01:17:44] <SWPadnos> which is what I was looking for
[01:18:24] <SWPadnos> the bright side of the story (no pun intended) is that I'll now have an excuse to place a digikey order :)
[01:18:59] <ds3> hmmmm what area of the country are you at?
[01:19:01] <SWPadnos> Vermont
[01:51:31] <jepler> no surprise, but emc2 --enable-simulator runs on this dual-core 64-bit system
[01:51:50] <SWPadnos> it's fine on quad cores as well :)
[01:51:57] <cradek> slick
[01:52:03] <SWPadnos> so you finally upgrades to an x2?
[01:52:08] <SWPadnos> upgraded
[01:52:10] <jepler> I still have to make a change to emc.nml
[01:52:19] <jepler> SWPadnos: yeah I found an excuse
[01:52:26] <SWPadnos> heh: it's Christmas!
[01:52:37] <SWPadnos> (useful for an excuse, if nothing else(
[01:52:39] <SWPadnos> )
[01:52:42] <jepler> SWPadnos: I'd talked myself out of doing it for christmas
[01:52:52] <SWPadnos> ah. it's New Years!
[01:53:14] <jepler> but then the fedora legacy people announced that they were disbanding -- so my excuse is that I need a fresh machine to do an install of ubuntu lts, and the move all my services from the fc4 machine
[01:53:16] <jepler> but downtime was unacceptable
[01:53:29] <SWPadnos> ooooh - that's a good one
[01:53:32] <SWPadnos> I'll have to remember it
[01:54:02] <jepler> then don't install ubuntu lts anywhere
[01:54:17] <jepler> since it'll be fine for years and years
[01:54:22] <jepler> what do I have, 4 1/2 years left?
[01:54:30] <SWPadnos> at least nowhere that I must leave as id during the transfer
[01:54:36] <SWPadnos> I think so
[01:54:54] <jepler> unfortunately the power supply in my new antec sonata case seems to be DOA :(
[01:55:02] <SWPadnos> bummer
[01:55:11] <SWPadnos> I can send you a few replacements if you like
[01:55:24] <SWPadnos> they seem to work for every motherboard except the H8DCE
[01:55:26] <jepler> I assume I'll be able to get a replacement out of newegg
[01:55:49] <SWPadnos> that's likely, but they'll probably want to exchange the entire case, since it came with it (right?)
[01:55:51] <jepler> though if you have a spare, bring it to fest -- I don't have any spares atm
[01:56:00] <SWPadnos> I only have 3 or 4 now
[01:56:03] <jepler> yeah that's what I fear, since I got the motherboard so nicely installed in it
[01:56:25] <jepler> actually that story of yours went through my head and I wondered if the PSU was also incompatible with my (el cheapo gigabyte) motherboard
[01:56:37] <jepler> cradek suggests to test the "powgood" output which I haven't done yet
[01:56:46] <SWPadnos> is it an NForce 2200/2050 board?
[01:56:58] <jepler> geforce 6100 video, I don't remember the rest
[01:57:22] <SWPadnos> this is sometihng that Radio Shack is good for - they have the Thermaltake "Dr. Power" PSU tester. it works quite well and is $12.95, I think
[01:57:27] <jepler> nVidia Corporation C51 Host Bridge
[01:57:45] <jepler> lots of C51 and MCP51 in lsusb
[01:57:49] <SWPadnos> ok, 6100 isn't the same at all
[01:57:58] <jepler> (II) NVIDIA(0): NVIDIA GPU GeForce 6100 at PCI:0:5:0
[01:58:19] <jepler> haven't tried sound or firewire yet, but the rest works (after running the installer in vesa, anyway)
[01:59:09] <SWPadnos> that all worked fine for me from moment one
[01:59:17] <SWPadnos> (non-motherboard firewire though)
[01:59:29] <jepler> I don't have any firewire devices to test with
[01:59:53] <SWPadnos> I think I borrowed a friend's portable drive case that had FW and USB2
[02:00:25] <SWPadnos> I actually was able to download a video from a Sony handycam as well, once I installed (whatever that app is)
[02:00:58] <jepler> neat
[02:01:05] <ejholmgren> how wide of an air gap would 120V at a few amps be able to jump?
[02:01:08] <ds3> is there a lighter weight setup then Ubuntu? Ubuntu is like driving a F350 to move around a modern laptop
[02:01:40] <jepler> ds3: there are "kubuntu", "xubuntu" and "server" (no X at all by default) installs, which come on different CDs
[02:01:46] <ds3> ejholmgren: probally no more then a few thou @ STP
[02:01:48] <jepler> ds3: xubuntu is a bit lighter than gnome or kde
[02:01:51] <SWPadnos> you can do a text mode install then install X with apt. you can also disable a lot of services if you don't need them
[02:02:08] <ejholmgren> certainly not .06" ?
[02:02:09] <ds3> jepler: those are still too heavy; they all bring in the hald/dbus/etc junk
[02:02:11] <jepler> how "light" does it need to be?
[02:02:15] <SWPadnos> 8000 V / inch at STP, "normal" humidit
[02:02:18] <SWPadnos> y
[02:02:29] <ds3> I would like something light like Slackware
[02:02:41] <SWPadnos> slackware with what UI?
[02:02:49] <ds3> right now there is a ton of stuff to rip out of ubuntu
[02:02:59] <ds3> plain old X and twm =)
[02:02:59] <cradek> you could sure build realtime on slackware if you want that
[02:03:01] <SWPadnos> not if you start from the text install
[02:03:25] <ds3> I did it from the text install and once from the GUI and there is tons to rip out
[02:03:58] <ds3> it would be REALLY nice if I can fit it all in a 512M CF so there is no rotating media at all
[02:04:12] <jepler> ah -- the smallest machines I'm interested in have at least 4GB disk
[02:04:38] <jepler> (ubuntu + emc2 + development tools fit in 4GB with about 1GB to spare)
[02:04:44] <SWPadnos> well, if you meet somewhere around halfway, it should be fine :) (1G CF is only $25 or so these days ...)
[02:05:35] <ds3> just doesn't feel right to have all that extra baggage
[02:05:47] <jepler> what's the smallest debian install? there are "build rtai and emc for debian etch" instructions on the wiki
[02:06:25] <ds3> on non x86, probally something that fits in less then 8M (openwrt on a Linksys router is Debian I think)
[02:06:47] <SWPadnos> non-x86 is somewhat problematic for RTAI
[02:06:50] <ds3> or a sharp Zaurus - 32M
[02:07:02] <ds3> yes, that's why I didn't ask; it is just debian can be so much smaller
[02:07:06] <SWPadnos> I don't think the other platforms get anywhere near the testing that x86 does
[02:07:16] <ds3> *nod*
[02:07:32] <jepler> "you must have at least .. 500MB of hard disk space": http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/ch02s05.html
[02:07:40] <SWPadnos> there are a lot of things that you can get rid of when you go to a dedicated system, that you can't for one that's meant to run on any old PC
[02:08:22] <ds3> things used to fit on less then 10 floppies!
[02:08:23] <SWPadnos> there are kernel options for tiny systems that let you get rid of things like chipset drivers and IDE - those *can't* be removed from a kernel that doesn't have the embedded flags set (at least, that's how it was a few months ago :) )
[02:08:51] <SWPadnos> it's those kinds of shortcuts that allow systems to get down to 64M or 32M
[02:08:59] <ds3> I am whining more about the user space side
[02:09:02] <jepler> there are a lot of options, but they all sound like *a lot of work*
[02:09:17] <ds3> is there someone else other then me interested in it?
[02:09:17] <SWPadnos> (plus the fact that they have no applications other than the handful needed to run the device)
[02:09:24] <SWPadnos> I'm interested, for sure
[02:09:50] <SWPadnos> but not really able to dedicate any time to it right now (and not knowledgeable enough to be effective fora while after I can spend the time)
[02:09:53] <jepler> I think it would be neat, but it doesn't fit any particular need I have
[02:10:05] <ds3> I do embedded linux stuff as my day job; was hoping something existed so I didn't have to cross my play and work
[02:10:15] <SWPadnos> I may try to get things running on the Mesa 3C81 card
[02:10:34] <SWPadnos> no, it's people like you that have to donate the work for people like us ;)
[02:10:52] <jepler> ds3: there was a version of emc2 for "puppy", but I don't know if anyone knows how to rebuild it .. it is a very old (pre-2.0.0) version of emc2
[02:10:55] <jepler> but it shows what can be done
[02:11:03] <ds3> jepler: you mean CoolCNC?
[02:11:06] <jepler> yeah that one
[02:11:15] <SWPadnos> there are instructions for building puppy in the wiki, I think
[02:11:24] <SWPadnos> puppy / coolCNC
[02:11:27] <ds3> I didn't like the fact it tries to start up full blow UI
[02:11:52] <SWPadnos> oh, if you only want a text mode interface (like the old Ah-Ha controllers or TurboCNC), then you can skip all of X
[02:11:56] <jepler> argh ads!
[02:11:59] <ds3> ideally for me, I want something that just starts axis or tk as if I was on a haas box or fanuc box
[02:12:30] <jepler> that should be a relatively easy change -- just run axis from .xsession, instead of the "desktop" program
[02:12:34] <SWPadnos> axis and tkemc both need X, but not necessarily any "desktop environment" like KDE or Gnome
[02:12:35] <jepler> I mean, "emc"
[02:12:38] <ds3> if a well tested curses interface is around, that'd be cool.. I know about keystick so far
[02:12:43] <jepler> keystick is the only one
[02:13:06] <ds3> getting rid of KDE/Gnome should shrink things tremendously
[02:13:21] <cradek> keystick is good but old - it's missing some new features: optional stop, spindle speed override, probably many others
[02:13:24] <jepler> nothing in emc2, with the exception of "print" in classicladder, requires gnome or kde
[02:14:08] <jepler> if you exclude halscope, halmeter, and classicladder, you don't need gtk. you can get by with just tk (tkemc or mini), just xaw (xemc), or python+tkinter (axis)
[02:14:08] <SWPadnos> hence the suggestion of xubuntu, which uses xfce ...
[02:14:15] <ds3> for people w/simplier machines (like a Taig or Sherline), some of those features don't matter too much
[02:14:26] <ds3> there is xemc?
[02:14:42] <jepler> yeah -- it looks very much like tkemc but uses the athena toolkit
[02:14:53] <SWPadnos> xemc is in the same class a s keystick, as far as updates go ...
[02:14:56] <ds3> Xaw is nice and small
[02:15:00] <ds3> oh.
[02:15:12] <SWPadnos> feel free to modernize it :)
[02:15:17] <SWPadnos> "patches gratefully accepted"
[02:15:51] <ds3> i would be happy to volunteer to help, but I need a working setup for a base line :/
[02:16:37] <cradek> even if your target is a small machine, I would think you'd be best developing on a "full sized" machine :-)
[02:17:16] <ds3> would be nice if I can stick it on a PC104 system
[02:18:01] <jepler> there's nothing about the goal "fix configure to succeed when tk-dev is not available" that can't be worked towards on a normal ubuntu desktop
[02:18:23] <jepler> in fact you can do it on "any old machine" with --enable-simulator
[02:18:52] <ds3> is there some axis binaries in a plain tar ball format somewhere?
[02:19:22] <jepler> binaries? no
[02:20:49] <jepler> of course, you can use dpkg-deb -x to extract the contents of any debian package in a non-root location
[02:22:21] <jepler> or convert it to a tar file with dpkg-deb --fsys-tarfile
[02:22:56] <jepler> $ \dpkg-deb --fsys-tarfile /var/cache/apt/archives/gdb_6.4-1ubuntu5.1_amd64.deb | tar tvf - | grep bin/gdb$
[02:23:00] <jepler> -rwxr-xr-x root/root 2845000 2006-10-02 04:21:44 ./usr/bin/gdb
[02:23:00] <jepler> e.g., ^^
[02:23:35] <ds3> is there an RPM one?
[02:25:30] <ds3> not a RPM fan, just happen to have rpm2cpio handy =)
[02:26:17] <cradek> the binaries aren't going to just work - there are a lot of library dependencies, and some of it's interpreted (python) requiring python modules.
[02:26:49] <ds3> I see. so much for a compile free easy G-code verifier :(
[02:27:25] <cradek> it's compile free, if you have the system that can run our binary packages
[02:27:38] <cradek> we certainly can't make binary packages for every system
[02:28:07] <cradek> heck you can just boot the live CD and run EMC to verify your gcode
[02:29:05] <SWPadnos> heh -throw that in a VM with no HD allocated :)
[02:30:01] <ds3> hahahaah. qemu Mmmmmm
[02:39:01] <jepler> yep, PWRGOOD meters 0V on that dud power supply
[02:39:10] <jepler> cradek: and you told me we'd had great success with them at the office :(
[02:39:35] <SWPadnos> so it kind of comes on for a sec then shuts off?
[02:39:40] <jepler> SWPadnos: no, it never comes on at all
[02:39:54] <SWPadnos> bummer
[02:40:01] <skunkworks> is the 110/220 switch set to 110?
[02:40:22] <SWPadnos> hey - that's a good question :)
[02:40:24] <skunkworks> * skunkworks never had that problem ;)
[02:40:31] <jepler> skunkworks: yes
[02:40:46] <jepler> 5VSB meters at about 5.08V so something is alive in there
[02:41:44] <jepler> when I tried connecting 5VSB to PS-ON with a 22k resistor, though, it measured <2V at 5VSB, so there's not much current there
[02:42:10] <jepler> (and 0.5V at PS-ON)
[02:42:19] <SWPadnos> hmmm. that should be a 2A supply or thereabouts
[02:42:44] <jepler> I should put the meter on current mode and short 5VSB to GND
[02:42:52] <skunkworks> I thought you gounded a pin to get the psu to come up
[02:43:07] <jepler> I could easily try that too
[02:43:27] <jepler> but with nothing connected, PS-ON metered 0V so I figured it needed to be pulled high
[02:43:52] <cradek> jepler: sorry, I thought they were pretty good.
[02:44:29] <cradek> * cradek doesn't know much about hardware anymore
[02:44:47] <jepler> yeah the internet says you GND PS-ON to turn it on (e.g., http://www.wikihow.com/Convert-a-Computer-ATX-Power-Supply-to-a-Lab-Power-Supply)
[02:52:28] <skunkworks> sounds like it is bad ;)
[02:54:44] <ejholmgren> atx shouldn't need a load
[02:55:44] <ejholmgren> short pin 14 or the purple one ( I forget ) to ground
[02:55:51] <ejholmgren> the fan should at least spin up
[02:57:32] <skunkworks> the few times I have tested powersupplys to see if the motherboard or psu was bad - they powered up. No load.
[03:14:53] <jepler> It doesn't make any difference if I GND PS-ON; still no voltage on the outputs
[03:15:23] <jmkasunich> sounds busted
[03:16:16] <jmkasunich> we had a great example of user stupidity come to our lab today
[03:16:33] <SWPadnos> oh no ...
[03:16:38] <jmkasunich> we make a 600HP drive, with a large filter inductor as well as several other components that are air cooled
[03:16:53] <jmkasunich> couple square feet of gridded cabined openings, lots of fans, etc
[03:17:15] <jmkasunich> apparenlty this customer installed it someplace with a nasty atmosphere (acid fumes for all I know)
[03:17:38] <jmkasunich> and when things started rusting, they said "I know, lets seal up all these openings to keep the nastys out"
[03:18:16] <jmkasunich> the heat from the inductor melted a cap, which generated an arcing fault which burned the living snot out of half the cabinet
[03:18:54] <SWPadnos> I guess they never heard of TENV or TEFC :)
[03:19:04] <jmkasunich> guess not
[03:19:27] <jmkasunich> I got my stepper motors!
[03:19:45] <SWPadnos> where from?
[03:19:56] <jmkasunich> keling
[03:20:03] <SWPadnos> oh, right
[03:20:37] <jmkasunich> as expected the leads are individual wires :-(
[03:20:50] <jepler> jmkasunich: awww too bad (about your customer's trouble) -- any pictures to appear soon on your blog?
[03:20:57] <jmkasunich> dunno
[03:21:22] <jmkasunich> I don't use pics that can be identified as our product
[03:21:42] <jepler> probably a good idea
[03:21:45] <jmkasunich> (don't want to be accused of releasing confidential info or anything)
[03:22:26] <jmkasunich> lots of times a closeup of the part that lost its magic smoke is good, but to get the full impression of this thing you need to step back
[03:22:41] <jmkasunich> the entire inside of the cabined is smoked
[03:22:49] <jmkasunich> cabinet even
[03:23:23] <jmkasunich> does anybody know if modern steppers can be disassembled without messing up the magnets?
[03:23:30] <SWPadnos> I hear not
[03:23:40] <jmkasunich> thats what I suspected
[03:23:42] <SWPadnos> it's probably even worse with the super-strong magnets used these days
[03:23:47] <jmkasunich> but I wasn't sure
[03:24:07] <jmkasunich> the rare-earths these days are actually better that way than the older alinco or whatever it was
[03:24:18] <jmkasunich> but I'm not gonna experiment
[03:25:40] <SWPadnos> but much harder to control the atmature as you try to remove it without touching the sides ...
[03:25:43] <SWPadnos> armature
[03:25:55] <jmkasunich> rotor
[03:26:11] <SWPadnos> right - that's what I was trying to spell ;)
[03:26:22] <SWPadnos> not that it matters - any motor has magnets way stronger than fingers ...
[03:26:39] <jmkasunich> I'd like to be able to remove the aluminun end-bells to drill and tap some small hole in them
[03:27:04] <jmkasunich> to attach a block of AL with a proper connector over the leadouts
[03:27:25] <SWPadnos> you got somethin' against RTV?
[03:27:29] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:27:32] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:27:35] <jmkasunich> I hate glue
[03:27:52] <SWPadnos> there's no thread on the wire hole?
[03:28:20] <jmkasunich> no, its a notch in the aluminum, and the other side of the hold is the end of the laminated stator
[03:28:32] <jmkasunich> theres a grommet that fits that notch
[03:28:39] <SWPadnos> that sounds like shit
[03:28:44] <SWPadnos> err - not ideal
[03:28:53] <jmkasunich> its typical for steppers tho
[03:29:15] <jmkasunich> unless you get into nema42, then you might get a proper conduit box or at least a threaded hub for conduit
[03:29:28] <SWPadnos> yeah. I think the giant ones I had had a threaded hole, but those were 35-pound Slo-Syn synchro/steppers
[03:30:00] <jmkasunich> what I was thinking of was a piece of 1" wide x 1/2" thick aluminum about the length of the motor
[03:30:11] <jmkasunich> nicely CNC pocketed on the inside
[03:30:26] <jmkasunich> and screwed to the side of the motor at both ends
[03:31:13] <jmkasunich> the pocket would cover the existing leadout (at the opposite drive end) and the connector would be near the drive end
[03:32:04] <jmkasunich> that can wait - I'm tempted to get the panel mount connector, solder it to the ends of the wire, tape it up and let it hang
[03:32:30] <jmkasunich> once the machine is working, then I can CNC the fancy "junction box" and relocate the connectors
[03:32:31] <SWPadnos> you got one of the N34 size ones, right (like the 1200 oz-in)?
[03:32:36] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:32:46] <SWPadnos> single or dual shaft?
[03:32:56] <jmkasunich> got hte 906 oz one, dual shaft
[03:33:13] <jmkasunich> the back end has a couple holes, 4-40 I think, that are spaced for mounting an encoder
[03:33:26] <jmkasunich> could probably use those somehow
[03:34:00] <jmkasunich> thats down the road a bit tho
[03:34:09] <jmkasunich> I seem to have a problem with focusing on the task at hand
[03:34:16] <jmkasunich> which is building up my power input panel
[03:34:48] <SWPadnos> you can probably use the long screws that hold the motor together to hold down an extra cap
[03:34:59] <SWPadnos> you shouldn't have to disassemble the motor to do that
[03:35:14] <jmkasunich> extra cap? you mean on the end?
[03:35:19] <SWPadnos> it probably has a ridge or gasket that'll hold the end cap in place
[03:35:20] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:35:21] <jmkasunich> I'd have to replace the long screws with longer ones
[03:35:31] <SWPadnos> or just use two of the screws
[03:35:31] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:35:48] <SWPadnos> though you may be able to use bent sheet metal for the wire cover
[03:36:10] <SWPadnos> mill off a little of the back plate around the screw holes, and use the same screws
[03:36:47] <jmkasunich> notice how the long screws are somewhat asymmetrical?
[03:37:00] <SWPadnos> nope. I'm looking at web photos ;)
[03:37:11] <jmkasunich> the stator has eight "corners", and the screws are in four of them
[03:37:16] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:37:32] <jmkasunich> the other four corners have enough meat to be drilled and tapped
[03:37:40] <jmkasunich> (one is, they call it a ground screw)
[03:38:08] <jmkasunich> I'd probably take that approach, and screw a 1/8" aluminum plate to the back
[03:38:15] <jmkasunich> with a tab that sticks out on the wire side
[03:38:21] <jmkasunich> connector in the plate
[03:38:23] <jmkasunich> wires to connector
[03:38:27] <SWPadnos> you can probably do that without disassembling the motor. just use blind holes and protect the shaft from chips
[03:38:26] <jmkasunich> then some kind of cover
[03:38:31] <jmkasunich> exactly
[03:38:52] <SWPadnos> you can even make a large-ish cover that could protect an encoder
[03:39:10] <jmkasunich> there's enough shaft length that even with a 1/8" plate, I have more than enough shaft for an encoder if I ever want one
[03:39:45] <SWPadnos> if you put a big hole in the middle of your plate, you don't need to worry about that at all, since the encoder will sit against the motor plate instead of yours
[03:39:55] <jmkasunich> true
[03:40:57] <jmkasunich> but since the standard encoders have closed covers, and an encoder with a clearance hold for the extra shaft length costs more and lets crud into the encoder, the extra thickness is actually a benefit
[03:41:05] <jmkasunich> clearance hole
[03:41:43] <SWPadnos> yep. something to think about if/when you decide on some particular encoder
[03:41:57] <jmkasunich> anyway, that is very much in the "later" catagory, after the machine is running
[03:43:05] <jmkasunich> I wonder if digikey has jumper blocks for din-rail terminal blocks
[03:43:06] <SWPadnos> which will be way after the power input panel is finished ;)
[03:43:13] <SWPadnos> yes, they do
[03:43:22] <SWPadnos> do you need DIN blocks, or just the jumpers?
[03:43:31] <jmkasunich> I gots lots o blocks
[03:43:33] <SWPadnos> actually, I may have had to order those from Mouser, come to think of it
[03:43:44] <SWPadnos> they didn't have that many size options
[03:43:47] <jmkasunich> Weidmuller WDU 2,5 type
[03:43:55] <SWPadnos> (they being either DK or Mouser - not sure which)
[03:43:57] <jmkasunich> I suspect the jumpers are manufacturer and style specific
[03:44:10] <SWPadnos> I think the spacing is, but the manufacturer may not be
[03:45:13] <SWPadnos> by the way, I got the part numbers for the motor and aux power connectors from Mesa
[03:45:14] <jmkasunich> wish I knew what thread that little screw is (the jumper screw)
[03:45:15] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: your motherboard assembly is very nice.
[03:45:22] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: thank you
[03:45:46] <SWPadnos> can't help you there - I have Phoenix Contact DIN stuff :)
[03:46:15] <jmkasunich> I'll take one to work tomorrow - we have lots of metric hardware
[03:46:25] <jmkasunich> looks like M3, maybe M2.5
[03:49:55] <jmkasunich> its the same as the screws that tighten the wire clamps...
[03:50:19] <jmkasunich> and those are 0.093" = M2.5
[03:53:05] <jmkasunich> so if I can't find a source for matching jumpers, I can make em out of 5/16 x 1/16 brass strip
[03:54:24] <SWPadnos> wow. the motor connectors and pins are in stock at Mouser
[03:54:39] <SWPadnos> $0.41 for the shell, $0.43/pin
[03:54:42] <jmkasunich> you sound surprised
[03:55:08] <SWPadnos> I am surprised that each pin is more expensive than the shell
[03:55:21] <jmkasunich> plastic = cheap
[03:55:29] <SWPadnos> true
[03:55:40] <jmkasunich> brass or copper, maybe gold plated, not so
[03:56:02] <SWPadnos> not gold, not RoHS ...
[03:56:13] <jmkasunich> is there a good quantity price break, or should we just order individually and avoid re-shipping?
[03:56:46] <cradek> hi
[03:56:49] <jmkasunich> hi
[03:57:05] <SWPadnos> I don't think it's worthwhile. the break is from $0.41 to $0.37 on the shells (1 vs 25 qty)
[03:57:18] <jmkasunich> definitely not worth it
[03:57:29] <jmkasunich> I haven't been looking at mouser.... I know I have an order coming up
[03:57:30] <SWPadnos> the pins are a little better, but it's still only a $5-10 savings overall
[03:57:34] <jmkasunich> stepper connectors, etc
[03:58:03] <SWPadnos> yeah. they have the motor connectors, but not the aux power connectors. DK has neither in stock
[03:58:05] <cradek> SWPadnos: can you give the two mouser part numbers?
[03:58:06] <jmkasunich> I was gonna order from DK, but if mouser has the stepper connectors _and_ the motor connectors
[03:58:24] <cradek> oh there's an oddball power connector too?
[03:58:36] <SWPadnos> here are the AMP part numbers:
[03:58:39] <SWPadnos> Plug shell part number: 172340-1 (AMP, Tyco Electronics.)
[03:58:40] <SWPadnos> Pin insert part number: 770988-3 (AMP, Tyco Electronics.)
[03:58:42] <SWPadnos> 4 pin right angle header part number: 641127-4 (AMP, Tyco Electronics.)
[03:58:46] <SWPadnos> the one that looks like a floppy power connector isn't
[03:59:03] <cradek> they ought to sell the connectors (that they get at quantity) with it
[03:59:14] <cradek> it's stupid that everyone has to go out and find them after buying the board
[03:59:16] <SWPadnos> oh, and 5i20.zip fromthe website is everything that's on the distribution disk referenced in the manual
[03:59:27] <SWPadnos> I agree. I was thinking of asking them if they have them for sale
[04:00:17] <cradek> I think I'll wait to see them - maybe I'll just remove them
[04:01:05] <SWPadnos> even at $5/connector, $20 isn't a bad deal considering the trouble that removing / modifying them would be
[04:01:32] <SWPadnos> just make sure you can reconfigure the other end, and you won't have to remove any pins :)
[04:01:43] <jmkasunich> damn, I knew I forgot something today... I meant to grab a few inches of heat-shrink tube
[04:02:12] <cradek> I think I'll wire everything to one larger connector and breakout in the shell
[04:02:48] <SWPadnos> what's your reasoning for doing that?
[04:03:20] <cradek> so I can unhook the driver box from the lathe (and eventually, plug in the mill)
[04:04:21] <SWPadnos> ah - I get it
[04:04:23] <cradek> I'm going to put it in an external scsi box, so the big existing connector might be a good candidate
[04:04:34] <cradek> not sure yet how it might work.
[04:04:58] <cradek> but I should think about an eventual upgrade of the mill.
[04:05:04] <SWPadnos> that hole may be good. I'm not sure that connector is good for 3 or 4A
[04:05:26] <cradek> only need about 2A, and I can use several/many pins per motor
[04:05:35] <SWPadnos> ah
[04:05:44] <cradek> but yeah, it's not meant for that.
[04:05:47] <jmkasunich> 50 pin centronics, right?
[04:06:12] <cradek> yes I think that's what it has - or it might be the newer one
[04:06:15] <jmkasunich> that has some meat in it, not like the newer tiny SCSI conectors
[04:06:21] <jmkasunich> is this the box I sent you?
[04:06:29] <jmkasunich> that had two 50 pin centronics
[04:06:35] <cradek> I think I found a better candidate but I haven't opened it yet
[04:06:39] <cradek> I bet it's also centronics
[04:06:59] <jmkasunich> bigger box?
[04:07:07] <cradek> this one I found has power outlets on it too! kind of an external scsi with a power strip built in
[04:07:17] <cradek> it's larger and flatter
[04:07:19] <jmkasunich> nice
[04:07:31] <cradek> yeah that will make the spindle very easy.
[04:07:50] <cradek> even if there's no speed control, on/off is very nice
[04:09:19] <cradek> anyway, you guys get back to working on the real machine :-)
[04:09:37] <cradek> jmkasunich: I'm excited that you'll have cnc soon, it's about time
[04:09:49] <jmkasunich> we'll see how soon "soon" is
[04:10:03] <cradek> sooner than never, which it looked like for quite a while
[04:10:14] <jmkasunich> my first pass will probably use the mesa "72 I/O" config and software step generation
[04:10:22] <jmkasunich> then I can work on FPGA step gen
[04:11:14] <cradek> do you think you'll need it for your microsteppers?
[04:11:21] <jmkasunich> the fpga step rates?
[04:11:24] <jmkasunich> might
[04:11:27] <cradek> yeah
[04:12:07] <jmkasunich> 10 TPI screws (at least until I do ballscrews), x2 pulleys, x10 uSteps = 40000 steps/inch
[04:13:01] <cradek> that's not bad at all
[04:13:17] <SWPadnos> what's the diameter of the screws?
[04:13:35] <cradek> oh, 40000, I saw 4000 - that is a problem isn't it
[04:13:39] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:13:38] <jmkasunich> 3/4 I think
[04:13:47] <SWPadnos> same as mine, with the geckos
[04:14:58] <jmkasunich> once I go to ballscrews it will probably be 20000
[04:15:22] <cradek> it's just acme at first?
[04:15:45] <jmkasunich> yeah, gonna use the existing screws
[04:15:48] <cradek> are you going to do anything for anti-backlash or is it just one metal nut?
[04:16:18] <jmkasunich> one bronze nut
[04:16:29] <jmkasunich> maybe even brass, knowing the chinese
[04:16:41] <cradek> maybe you'll test backlash comp then... :-)
[04:17:02] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:17:48] <jmkasunich> more likely I'll just program as if I was still running manually - always approach from one side, etc
[04:17:50] <cradek> I could probably use it on the lathe. no "hardware" comp there either
[04:18:07] <cradek> yeah, that works until you want to cut a circle across a quadrant
[04:18:49] <cradek> or turn and bore on the same job, etc
[04:19:04] <jmkasunich> turn and bore isn't a problem
[04:19:19] <cradek> yeah I guess you'd do it like manual - cut and measure, then reset stuff
[04:19:22] <jmkasunich> (two different tools anyway, so one's offset will be set for turning, the other for boring)
[04:19:45] <cradek> right, I didn't think of that
[04:20:11] <cradek> when you measure to set offsets you get automatic calibration
[04:20:16] <cradek> backlash cal
[04:25:33] <cradek> goodnight
[04:25:45] <skunkworks> Night
[04:26:10] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[04:26:23] <SWPadnos> see you
[04:28:13] <cradek> hmm, I just looked at one of paul fox's emails which is signed (arlington, ma, where it's 38.5 degrees) at the bottom and I thought, "wow, that's HOT"
[04:28:24] <cradek> guess I've been talking to foreigners too much
[04:33:14] <skunkworks> 'firefly' was a pretty decent series.. too bad it was canceled.
[04:33:27] <SWPadnos> so I've heard
[04:33:35] <SWPadnos> I saw "Serenity", and liked it
[04:33:47] <SWPadnos> (that's the right one, isn't it?)
[04:33:54] <skunkworks> Yes
[04:34:10] <skunkworks> that is how I got into the series
[04:34:22] <skunkworks> same actors and plot
[04:34:52] <SWPadnos> yep
[04:35:41] <skunkworks> ah - fox played the series out of order. made it quite confusing. that makes sense
[04:36:03] <SWPadnos> yeah. supposedly the DVD set is in the right sequence
[04:36:20] <skunkworks> yes - that is what I have. got it for christmas
[04:36:24] <jmkasunich> we have the DVD, and liked it
[04:36:26] <SWPadnos> cool
[04:36:42] <skunkworks> still have 1 dvd to go..
[04:37:07] <SWPadnos> another one a friend liked was "Andromeda"
[04:37:24] <jmkasunich> we watched that for a while when it was still broadcasting
[04:37:36] <jmkasunich> eventually lost interest (or maybe it moved to a cable channel)
[04:37:36] <skunkworks> never watched it.. liked babalon 5 though. really got into that.
[04:37:49] <SWPadnos> I thought it was on Sci-Fi the whole time
[04:38:24] <jmkasunich> the first season or 2 was on real tv
[04:38:31] <SWPadnos> oh
[04:39:03] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure how much real TV I've watched at home in the last 5 years (other than PBS and news)
[04:39:16] <SWPadnos> it's probably less than 5 hours
[04:40:48] <jmkasunich> 5 hours in 5 years?
[04:40:54] <SWPadnos> probably
[04:40:59] <SWPadnos> maybe more around 9/11
[04:41:11] <SWPadnos> actually, that's guaranteed
[04:41:19] <SWPadnos> oh, that was more than 5 years ago now ;)
[04:42:04] <SWPadnos> when traveling, I watch more. at home, it's PBS and news, sometimes public access as well
[04:42:10] <SWPadnos> but mostly DVDs
[04:42:38] <jmkasunich> I watch very little tv at all at home, but more than 1 hr per year
[04:42:57] <skunkworks> :)
[04:43:01] <SWPadnos> it's pretty amazing how bad broadcast TV looks on a 55" screen ...
[04:43:04] <skunkworks> I watch entirely too much
[04:43:24] <SWPadnos> well, I watch a fair amount of PBS - they have interesting shows
[04:44:08] <skunkworks> coworker has pbs hi-def - very nice
[04:44:14] <skunkworks> over the air
[04:44:53] <SWPadnos> we're too cheap to go for HD cable
[04:45:16] <SWPadnos> or the very expensive digital tuner I'd need for my 4 year old "HD-ready" set ...
[04:45:23] <skunkworks> oh well - time for bed - night.
[04:45:24] <skunkworks> right
[04:45:29] <SWPadnos> see you later
[04:45:35] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[04:56:41] <ejholmgren> find a coon solution?
[04:57:08] <Jymmm> motion light
[04:57:42] <ds3> Hmmmm does axis scale properly to fit a 320x200 display?
[05:00:07] <ejholmgren> that could be interesting
[05:01:06] <ds3> 4-5" NTSC LCDs are cheap
[05:01:53] <Jymmm> ds3 change your resolution to 320x200 and find out =)
[05:03:47] <ds3> maybe not, MDI may not be too readable
[05:07:04] <SWPadnos> ds3, no, it needs at least 640x480, I think (and it's pretty crowded at 800x600)
[05:16:22] <A-L-P-H-A> back
[05:21:18] <ejholmgren> SWP: I can attest to 800x600 being a bit tight
[05:21:35] <SWPadnos> heh. so can I - that's the resolution of my touchscreen PC
[05:23:27] <SWPadnos> in fact, 800x600 may bethe lowest resolution you can use AXIS at (with a GUI that has top/bottom bars, at least). I remember something about that at Fest
[06:00:50] <ds3> using the courtesy monitor outlet on the back of older PC's is no worse then plugging something into the same power strip, right?
[06:04:56] <SWPadnos> depends on the monitor - you shouldn't draw too much power through that socket
[06:06:02] <ds3> okay, scratch powering the spindle through it
[06:06:07] <SWPadnos> heh
[06:06:59] <ds3> the PC power switch would have been a nice master shutoff
[06:10:14] <jmkasunich> how big is your spindle (power rating)
[06:12:03] <ds3> the motor was sold as 1/4HP; I have yet to figure out if it is 1/4HP rotary power or 1/4HP of electricity consumed
[06:12:45] <jmkasunich> either way, thats no more than a medium to large CRT monitor
[06:13:11] <jmkasunich> is there a separate switch or relay that actually starts and stops the motor?
[06:13:37] <ds3> yeah, there is a SCR based controller between
[06:13:48] <jmkasunich> then go ahead and use it
[06:13:48] <ds3> my first concern was just noise
[06:13:55] <jmkasunich> oh
[06:14:14] <ds3> how many watts do a typical large CRT pull?
[06:14:35] <jmkasunich> I'd have to look it up, but I bet a 19" is well over 100 watts
[06:14:36] <SWPadnos> ~150 max, from what I've seen
[06:14:46] <SWPadnos> but you don't run a 21" monitor off the PC supply ...
[06:15:14] <jmkasunich> not off the PC's convenience outlet (older PCs, that had an actual 120V on-off switch)
[06:15:28] <SWPadnos> right - that's what we're talking about
[06:15:37] <SWPadnos> ATX supplies generally don't have one
[06:15:45] <jmkasunich> right
[06:15:50] <ds3> Hmmm... I'll do the the proper way and use an external power strip
[06:16:15] <Jymmm> Solid State Relay
[06:16:49] <jmkasunich> goodnight folks
[06:16:56] <ds3> got enough projects, don't need to start looking for electrical boxes and having to do a wiring job
[06:16:58] <SWPadnos> see you jmk
[06:17:07] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I should hit the sack as well
[06:17:12] <SWPadnos> see you all later
[06:17:20] <Jymmm> G'Night
[08:13:02] <A-L-P-H-A> addictive flash strategy game. http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/dice/dice.html
[08:41:48] <anonimasu> hm yeah..hm
[08:41:48] <anonimasu> hello
[08:47:12] <anonimasu> 44:9
[08:47:57] <anonimasu> err..
[08:47:57] <anonimasu> :)
[08:50:09] <alex_joni> hi
[08:50:14] <anonimasu> what's up?
[08:50:20] <anonimasu> im working more on the plasma..
[08:50:20] <anonimasu> :)
[08:50:21] <alex_joni> work :/
[08:50:43] <anonimasu> doing more calculations on deflection/strength and stuff..
[08:51:18] <alex_joni> heh
[08:51:55] <anonimasu> heh?
[08:52:42] <fenn> calculations are for sissies
[08:53:05] <fenn> real men stand by their mistakes
[08:53:12] <anonimasu> bah..
[08:53:28] <anonimasu> fenn: trying to look into making a router with a single rail.. for x
[08:54:33] <anonimasu> fenn: but im trying to find out if it's possible at all..
[08:55:14] <anonimasu> fenn: I'd rahter not construct something that's doomed before I start
[08:56:01] <anonimasu> :)
[09:02:07] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Your sex life?
[09:02:52] <Jymmm> anonimasu: They Do have viagra for such things. But if you need something beyound that, well you're on your own there =)
[09:03:30] <fenn> anonimasu: single rail sounds like a bad idea
[09:23:19] <anonimasu> fenn: seems like it's possible to get it stiff enough..
[09:23:32] <anonimasu> it's one meter Y
[09:23:36] <fenn> whats the advantage? besides cost
[09:24:06] <fenn> this is for a plasma right?
[09:24:22] <anonimasu> yeah
[09:24:33] <anonimasu> that I can flip the machine over when not in use and put it up a wall..
[09:24:35] <fenn> i'd say make a SCARA mechanism :)
[09:24:45] <fenn> a really big one
[09:25:42] <fenn> anonimasu: why not just always keep it up on the wall?
[09:26:15] <fenn> thats what i was going to do
[09:27:23] <fenn> more than 8 feet tall though would mean you have to put it sideways to fit in a basement ceiling
[09:28:17] <fenn> the duck factory is way cooler than the lego link from the other day
[09:30:02] <anonimasu> yeah
[09:30:06] <anonimasu> fenn: well, that's possible..
[09:30:15] <fenn> there are proposals for nanite computers made out of carbon nanotubes using push/pull logic like the lego computer
[09:30:18] <anonimasu> fenn: but loading sheets ends up harder :9
[09:30:19] <anonimasu> )
[09:30:31] <fenn> think so? seems easier to me
[09:30:48] <fenn> i'm only worried about the finished pieces falling out halfway and getting stuck under the torch
[09:30:54] <fenn> nothing a vacuum table couldnt fix
[09:30:58] <anonimasu> yeah
[09:31:01] <anonimasu> but that's more work..
[09:31:11] <anonimasu> I cant build a 2x1 meter vaccum table..
[09:31:20] <Jymmm> why not?
[09:31:29] <fenn> simple.. shopvac under your regular plasma table
[09:31:38] <Jymmm> shopvac + vacuum pump
[09:31:40] <fenn> throw plastic sheet over the holes in your stock
[09:31:51] <fenn> Jymmm: not that kind of vacuum table
[09:31:57] <anonimasu> the sheets are 10mm thick..
[09:31:59] <anonimasu> minimum :9
[09:32:11] <fenn> duh.. what?
[09:32:13] <Jymmm> ok TWO shopvacs =)
[09:32:27] <anonimasu> the parts..
[09:32:27] <fenn> oh, right.. tractors
[09:32:43] <fenn> anonimasu: get a bigger shop then :P
[09:32:43] <anonimasu> yeah..
[09:32:56] <anonimasu> fenn: it's more a stowaway issue..
[09:33:09] <anonimasu> fenn: there's no point in having a big machine that takes up floorspace when we dont use it..
[09:33:11] <fenn> hoist it to the ceiling :P
[09:33:22] <fenn> no OSHA in sweden right?
[09:33:31] <anonimasu> OSHA?
[09:33:38] <anonimasu> yeah..
[09:33:45] <anonimasu> there's one..
[09:33:50] <fenn> just kidding
[09:34:07] <anonimasu> :D
[09:34:11] <anonimasu> they are really mean..
[09:34:47] <anonimasu> http://imagebin.org/6873
[09:34:54] <anonimasu> fenn: that's what I drew up as a beam yesterday
[09:35:38] <fenn> i saw
[09:35:48] <fenn> the things sticking off it are linear rails?
[09:35:53] <anonimasu> no
[09:36:00] <anonimasu> the rail goes on the front of it..
[09:36:09] <fenn> which side is the front?
[09:36:14] <anonimasu> the flat one
[09:36:16] <fenn> ok
[09:36:28] <fenn> so what are the nubs for?
[09:36:31] <anonimasu> there's a rail with steel shafts for the carrige to run on
[09:36:43] <anonimasu> so it should stiffen it up more
[09:37:16] <fenn> i was thinking about dallur's laser pointer idea
[09:37:41] <fenn> you could use it to make a straight rail with a method like les's power scraping article
[09:37:58] <fenn> integrate the angle (slope) to get position
[09:38:37] <fenn> personally i'd just stick shims under it
[09:38:53] <fenn> or use adjustable bolts and cast polymer concrete under it
[09:39:28] <fenn> so anyway, back to your plasma table
[09:39:37] <fenn> forget about the nubs, just get a bigger box section
[09:40:02] <fenn> you could have two rails on a long-ish rectangular structural section
[09:40:16] <fenn> would be better than a bigger rail
[09:40:32] <fenn> btw you're just moving the plasma head right?
[09:45:31] <alex_joni> should be pretty light
[09:45:35] <alex_joni> max 5kg forces
[09:52:17] <anonimasu> hm
[09:52:30] <anonimasu> a square tubing wont deflect under the load..
[09:53:08] <A-L-P-H-A> something is so wrong with my compy.
[09:53:13] <A-L-P-H-A> making buzzing sounds. :(
[09:53:25] <alex_joni> anonimasu: I suspect a aluminum profile (extruded funny shape) would hold too
[09:54:00] <alex_joni> anonimasu: unless you crash the head, there is no real force in plasma cutting
[09:54:15] <alex_joni> put an balancer on the cables, those can be a bit heavy (under dynamic load)
[09:55:55] <anonimasu> alex_joni: steel is much better..
[09:56:01] <anonimasu> alex_joni: aluminium is just not stiff enough
[09:56:05] <alex_joni> ok, also a bit heavier
[09:56:19] <A-L-P-H-A> what's up, you euro folk?
[09:56:23] <alex_joni> there are profiles which are as stiff as square tube
[09:56:36] <alex_joni> anonimasu: not sure how they are called..
[09:56:44] <alex_joni> probably a bit more expensive though :D
[09:56:48] <A-L-P-H-A> www.8080.net
[09:56:56] <alex_joni> http://peace.str3am.com:6080
[09:57:15] <A-L-P-H-A> wrong site
[09:57:57] <anonimasu> alex_joni: also welding and stuff becomes a issue..
[09:57:57] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.8020.net/ that's what it is.
[09:58:01] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, check that out
[09:58:21] <anonimasu> i can get that..
[09:58:29] <anonimasu> it' still flimsier..
[09:58:34] <A-L-P-H-A> huh?
[09:58:54] <anonimasu> steel is stiffer then alu :)
[09:59:11] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu. yes. air is lighter than water. point?
[09:59:27] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: he needs the stiffness for the one-rail design
[09:59:49] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, what are we making a plasma cutter arm?
[09:59:56] <anonimasu> yeah..
[10:00:09] <anonimasu> T style..
[10:00:13] <anonimasu> 2x1meter..
[10:00:31] <A-L-P-H-A> why? are you thinking you'll save money on extrusions?
[10:00:37] <anonimasu> the space is a issue..
[10:00:48] <anonimasu> A-L-P-H-A: I like to be able to put the machine away when not in use..
[10:01:00] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu. cieling mount! :D
[10:01:04] <A-L-P-H-A> cieling isn't being used.
[10:01:04] <anonimasu> A-L-P-H-A: and a H style machine ends up being really big..
[10:01:20] <A-L-P-H-A> okay, if you say so. :)
[10:01:39] <A-L-P-H-A> play this game instead, it's so fun. http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/dice/dice.html
[10:01:46] <A-L-P-H-A> there's a multiplayer version of it too.
[10:02:16] <anonimasu> A-L-P-H-A: also loading it from the side with a forklift makes it nice too..
[10:02:31] <anonimasu> but if the beam is impossible to get stiff enough...
[10:02:34] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu. I don't have those issues... I have space, and no forklift. :)
[10:02:44] <A-L-P-H-A> how stiff do you need it?
[10:02:55] <anonimasu> damn stiff..
[10:03:01] <anonimasu> :D
[10:03:02] <A-L-P-H-A> like my member?
[10:03:06] <anonimasu> yeah
[10:03:18] <A-L-P-H-A> now stop dreaming about it... and I said no touching.
[10:03:28] <anonimasu> the issue is vibration..
[10:03:33] <anonimasu> from what I hear
[10:03:46] <A-L-P-H-A> the girl I went out with tonight, called hers, buzzy.
[10:03:59] <anonimasu> ok that's enough..
[10:04:00] <anonimasu> lunch
[10:04:11] <A-L-P-H-A> hehe.
[10:04:14] <A-L-P-H-A> ahhhhhhhhh. I should sleep, it's 5am
[10:04:19] <A-L-P-H-A> my sleep cycle is fucked up now.
[10:08:50] <fenn> wheee!
[10:09:08] <fenn> that dice game sucks, its just like risk
[10:09:33] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn, thank you for realizing it.
[10:09:48] <A-L-P-H-A> it's less painful than risk... but same idea.
[10:09:50] <A-L-P-H-A> I like it.
[10:09:57] <A-L-P-H-A> there's a multiplayer version on the next.
[10:11:04] <A-L-P-H-A> has such a massive head ache earlier, from drinking too much beer.
[10:11:24] <A-L-P-H-A> this girl and I split 2 pitchers... freak'n a lot of booze.
[10:12:24] <fenn> drink some ginger tea before bed
[10:12:45] <fenn> and next time dont drink so much, you eediot!
[10:12:51] <alex_joni> heh
[10:12:52] <A-L-P-H-A> the head ache is gone...
[10:12:56] <alex_joni> and better don't go to bed
[10:12:59] <A-L-P-H-A> I wanted to get her drunk, so we'd hae fun.
[10:13:02] <fenn> it'll keep you from getting a hangover
[10:13:07] <alex_joni> only way to restore your normal sleep cycle
[10:13:07] <fenn> well, theoretically at least
[10:13:21] <A-L-P-H-A> worked.
[10:13:23] <A-L-P-H-A> but anyways.
[10:13:27] <fenn> yep i'm on the switcheroo right now.. woke up at 2 am
[10:13:40] <A-L-P-H-A> heh... I woke up at 1am
[10:13:43] <A-L-P-H-A> err.
[10:13:47] <A-L-P-H-A> 1pm, EDT
[10:14:09] <A-L-P-H-A> bbiab
[10:20:33] <A-L-P-H-A> computer is quiet for now.
[10:20:37] <A-L-P-H-A> wonder how long it'll stay quiet.
[10:22:33] <fenn> A-L-P-H-A A-L-P-H-A A-L-P-H-A does this make your irc client beep at you?
[10:23:07] <fenn> just dont use firefox
[10:23:15] <fenn> stupid piggy firefox
[10:34:31] <A-L-P-H-A> logger_emc, bookmark
[10:34:31] <A-L-P-H-A> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-01-09.txt
[10:35:13] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn, and no.
[10:37:11] <A-L-P-H-A> oh wow.
[10:37:34] <A-L-P-H-A> computer is a lot quieter now... killed a fan, oiled the vid card fan, and I'm happy it's quieter now.
[10:37:47] <A-L-P-H-A> if I could just kill both the CPU and vid card fan, i'd be a happy happy man
[10:40:05] <fenn> kill!
[10:40:21] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn, did you have too much coffee or something today?
[10:40:26] <fenn> just put the comp in another room
[10:40:33] <fenn> usb can go 16 meters
[10:40:40] <A-L-P-H-A> I hvae a hole in the wall, just for monitor cables and such.
[10:43:22] <fenn> wow, you can make an atomic force microscope using a dish of distilled water instead of a vacuum chamber
[10:43:39] <A-L-P-H-A> "atomic force"?
[10:44:38] <fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_probe_microscopy
[10:45:04] <fenn> you can see lumps from individual atoms
[10:45:47] <fenn> click on scanning tunneling microscope
[10:53:43] <A-L-P-H-A> run away!
[10:53:42] <A-L-P-H-A> run away!
[10:53:45] <A-L-P-H-A> it's lerneaen_hydra
[10:54:09] <lerneaen_hydra> bwahahahaha
[10:54:22] <lerneaen_hydra> * lerneaen_hydra sends his crab ti attack A-L-P-H-A
[10:54:29] <lerneaen_hydra> s/ti/to
[10:56:42] <A-L-P-H-A> crab? I don't wnat your STDs.
[10:57:00] <A-L-P-H-A> damn. hungry right now now... thinking of seafood.
[10:57:25] <fenn> lol "Also have some pictures of the mill
[10:57:25] <fenn> that was adjacent to the anodizing display and the handsome devil who was demonstrating casting aluminum if that would be of interest."
[10:57:51] <fenn> <- handsome devil
[10:58:06] <fenn> if only the girls knew
[10:58:07] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn, that man is flirting with you. be careful.
[10:58:43] <lerneaen_hydra> be afraid, be very afraid
[10:58:54] <lerneaen_hydra> A-L-P-H-A: so, how'd the date go
[10:59:18] <A-L-P-H-A> lerneaen_hydra, good and we had good time. :)
[10:59:23] <lerneaen_hydra> excelent
[11:01:20] <A-L-P-H-A> okay, I'm sure the problem is now fixed, the vid fan was the noise cultrip
[11:02:41] <A-L-P-H-A> gonna lay down. :) ciao folks...
[11:05:11] <lerneaen_hydra> 'night A-L-P-H-A
[11:05:39] <lerneaen_hydra> btw, I seriously hope you're not in #emc while your date is around, waiting for something
[11:12:39] <lerman__> lerman__ is now known as lerman
[11:41:01] <A-L-P-H-A> lerneaen_hydra, uh. no. I left and we were out all afternoon and night....
[11:42:39] <lerneaen_hydra> A-L-P-H-A: hmm, what time is it in canada?
[11:42:42] <lerneaen_hydra> where you are
[11:44:35] <lerman___> lerman___ is now known as lerman
[11:50:22] <anonimasu> hm
[11:52:07] <lerneaen_hydra> 'morning anonimasu
[11:54:29] <anonimasu> morning
[11:55:37] <anonimasu> I found/q lerman___
[11:55:37] <lerman___> lerman___ is now known as lerman
[11:57:08] <simon78> How bad is it to use two steppers to drive a single axis? Will it work at all?
[11:57:22] <anonimasu> yes
[11:57:28] <anonimasu> if you have two drives and run them off one pulsetrain..
[11:57:59] <lerneaen_hydra> simon78: you'll have to align them quite accurately
[11:58:09] <paragon36> Ive seen dual staked steppers that are basicaly two motors joined together.
[11:58:12] <anonimasu> otherwise you get skewing issues..
[11:59:10] <paragon36> With in the .ini file waht determines G0 speed?
[12:00:20] <lerneaen_hydra> maxvel
[12:00:27] <lerneaen_hydra> both TP and per-axis
[12:01:15] <simon78> The will have an leadscrew each and drive the gauntry in both ends. so they will not be directly mechanically linked.
[12:01:43] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, lining that up correctly may be difficult
[12:02:03] <lerneaen_hydra> you may get weird resonance issues, I'm not sure
[12:02:06] <paragon36> Thanks Lerneaen ..... Should be receiving pluto-p board soon :-)
[12:02:24] <lerneaen_hydra> cool :D
[12:05:28] <simon78> lerneaen_hydra: Vad är det som blir svårt?
[12:06:21] <lerneaen_hydra> simon78: haha, en till svensk :D att linjera upp dom så att dom inte jobbar emot varandra
[12:06:39] <anonimasu> simon78: hej ^_^
[12:08:03] <simon78> hej på er!
[12:09:19] <simon78> Är inte så bra på CNC-engelska så jag kanske inte förklarade så bra. Men, en bild ljuger mer än tusen ord: http://familjenlundell.se.scorpionshops.com/images/galleri/easygallery/5/1168201011_img_6880a.jpg
[12:09:27] <lerman___> lerman___ is now known as lerman
[12:10:44] <lerneaen_hydra> simon78: hur många steg/varv på dina motorer?
[12:10:56] <lerneaen_hydra> och hade du tänkt ha microstepping?
[12:11:33] <simon78> 200steg/varv, hade nog tänkt ha typ 1/4 eller liknande.
[12:12:05] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, är det inte samma skruv som båda motorerna skall kopplas till?
[12:12:33] <lerneaen_hydra> (jag antar att det är tvärsliden som vi pratar om nu)
[12:12:41] <simon78> nä, en skruv på varje sida. Men de ska driva samma axel (dvs flytta vagnen)
[12:12:41] <lerneaen_hydra> den som blir X
[12:12:49] <lerneaen_hydra> aha, nu är jag med på vad du menar
[12:12:57] <lerneaen_hydra> Y axeln sett från bilden
[12:13:03] <lerneaen_hydra> det borde inte vara något problem
[12:13:06] <simon78> Altså den långa axeln
[12:13:14] <lerneaen_hydra> cosinus är ju så snäll vid små vinklar
[12:13:42] <lerneaen_hydra> så länge dom ligger inom ett par steg av varandra är det nog inget problem
[12:13:58] <lerneaen_hydra> borde vara lugnt
[12:14:19] <lerneaen_hydra> var har du för slid? laxsjärt eller något mera exotiskt?
[12:14:28] <simon78> Om man Home:ar dom individuellt lite då och då borde det väl funka? samt kör dem på samma step-signal.
[12:14:39] <simon78> ehh? lax?
[12:14:41] <anonimasu> det är svårt det där med home:ing
[12:14:58] <lerneaen_hydra> simon78: dovetail
[12:15:03] <anonimasu> / \
[12:15:13] <lerneaen_hydra> simon78: den vanliga man har på manuella maskiner
[12:15:42] <simon78> K. THK linjärlager med 4 kulbanor
[12:15:45] <simon78> SR15
[12:15:47] <lerneaen_hydra> aha, såpass
[12:16:22] <lerneaen_hydra> hur beter dom sig med kraft vinkelrät mot sliden?
[12:17:18] <lerneaen_hydra> (jag tänker tex. om ena motorn förlorar kraft eller låser sig i ett läge)
[12:18:39] <simon78> Om ena låser sig så att den stora vagnen ligger ovinkelrätt så blir skenorna nog inte glada. De kröker sig men fjädrar tillbaka.
[12:18:47] <simon78> De är iofs skruvade ganska tätt.
[12:20:04] <lerneaen_hydra> dom skadas iaf inte?
[12:20:37] <simon78> Skulle inte tro det. Inte i första taget iaf.
[12:20:52] <simon78> möjligen infästningarna då.
[12:22:33] <simon78> Blir bra mycket enklare mekaniskt att driva dem med varsin motor. Dessutom har jag ju en dröse mellansmå motorer liggandes. Annars behöver jag nog köpa en större.
[12:24:34] <simon78> Blir EMC på dåligt humör av att ha det såhär?
[12:24:50] <lerneaen_hydra> ok, en sak som vore kanske värt att tänka på är någon enkoder som sitter på motorn och känner av om den inte följer efter som den ska
[12:25:11] <lerneaen_hydra> ne, emc är mycket flexibel, det borde gå bra o göra det
[12:26:12] <anonimasu> :)
[12:29:31] <simon78> Kan prova i veckan och se hur det går.
[12:49:56] <^eugenics> oj vad mycket svensk text :)
[12:50:22] <^eugenics> snyggt jobb simon78
[12:50:26] <lerneaen_hydra> vem kommer våga bryta trenden?
[12:50:32] <lerneaen_hydra> GRUPPTRYCK AAAAH!
[12:50:43] <^eugenics> :)
[12:51:29] <^eugenics> lerneaen_hydra, inga hangtentor?
[12:51:44] <lerneaen_hydra> ^eugenics: nope, jag klarade mig undan
[12:51:47] <lerneaen_hydra> iaf hittils
[12:52:01] <^eugenics> grattis: da har du ledigt nu eller?
[12:53:01] <lerneaen_hydra> japp, tills den 22e
[12:53:25] <^eugenics> skont for dig.
[12:53:45] <^eugenics> trivs du pa chalmers?
[12:53:46] <lerneaen_hydra> verkligen
[12:53:49] <^eugenics> kul
[12:53:50] <lerneaen_hydra> ja, det gör jag
[12:53:57] <lerneaen_hydra> hur bra som helst
[12:54:14] <^eugenics> bra, jag trivdes sadar pa kth
[12:54:42] <lerneaen_hydra> asså?
[12:55:30] <^eugenics> har du spanat in nagra av de cnc maskiner de har pa chalmers?
[12:56:21] <lerneaen_hydra> litegranna, dom har en fin nc fräs och en ombyggd (stor) svarv
[12:56:42] <lerneaen_hydra> på xp lab
[12:56:51] <lerneaen_hydra> där man får använda dom (om man visat att man kan osv)
[12:57:16] <^eugenics> ok, pa kth hade de inte sa manga kanke 8 maskiner totalt
[12:57:21] <lerneaen_hydra> asså?
[12:57:26] <lerneaen_hydra> de va synd
[12:57:30] <^eugenics> bla en hexapod
[12:57:47] <lerneaen_hydra> åhå, se där
[13:00:11] <simon78> Har det jobbats nåt på image-to-gcode under hösten?
[13:01:03] <^eugenics> typ foto filter som ger gkod?
[13:01:18] <^eugenics> eller vad tanker du pa?
[13:02:04] <anonimasu> hm, är det inte färdigt+
[13:02:16] <lerneaen_hydra> simon78: inte vad jag vet, jepler har iaf inte sagt nåt om ny kod till den
[13:02:21] <lerneaen_hydra> den funkar iaf
[13:02:24] <anonimasu> :)
[13:02:27] <simon78> K
[13:02:28] <lerneaen_hydra> med många fina funktioner
[13:02:41] <lerneaen_hydra> nån får se till att peta på honom :p
[13:03:23] <simon78> Jag provade den med 2.0.3 eller nått, eller om det var någon svn-version runt 2.0.3 och då hade jag problem med den. Får kolla om den funkar bättre nu.
[13:06:16] <lerneaen_hydra> bbl
[13:06:25] <anonimasu> laters lh
[13:08:01] <cradek> that looked like an interesting conversation but I can't make much sense of it
[13:08:20] <anonimasu> cradek: talking about dual steppers
[13:08:23] <anonimasu> to move a router gantry
[13:08:24] <lerneaen_hydra> bork bork bork!
[13:08:32] <cradek> image-to-gcode?
[13:08:34] <lerneaen_hydra> bork bork, bork, bork bork bork? booork, bork bork
[13:08:51] <anonimasu> oh, the final stuff, he didnt get it to work well with 2.0.3
[13:09:28] <cradek> it would work fine, but it's not in 2.0 because we stopped adding features to that
[13:10:13] <anonimasu> he dl:ed the svn version..
[13:10:23] <lerman____> lerman____ is now known as lerman
[13:10:55] <cradek> morning ken
[13:11:52] <cradek> bbl
[13:24:52] <lerman____> lerman____ is now known as lerman
[13:30:06] <alex_joni> anonimasu: svn of what?
[13:33:28] <alex_joni> morning samco
[13:33:44] <skunkworks> Hi alex.
[13:33:48] <skunkworks> I have a question for you...
[13:33:50] <alex_joni> found those monitors?
[13:33:53] <alex_joni> shoot :)
[13:34:01] <skunkworks> not yet :)
[13:34:53] <skunkworks> the pjirc client that is on linuxcnc.org - can you change the 'real name' of the user?
[13:35:02] <alex_joni> real name?
[13:35:33] <skunkworks> did that make sense? the issue is the 'real name' is set to 'java user' and that is banned from ubuntu channel.
[13:35:46] <skunkworks> that is why I can't get on there with this client.
[13:35:49] <alex_joni> letme look
[13:35:58] <jepler> good morning guys
[13:36:01] <paragon36> Hello Chaps
[13:36:11] <alex_joni> * alex_joni takes out his goggles
[13:36:13] <alex_joni> morning jeff, paragon36
[13:36:22] <skunkworks> Hi
[13:36:51] <skunkworks> alex_joni: skunkworks n=skunkwor 68-115-41-210.static.eucl.wi.charter.com * Java User
[13:36:58] <paragon36> Is the stepper control better in EMC2 then it was in EMC?
[13:37:47] <jepler> yes, it's better in several significant ways
[13:38:01] <jepler> the biggest is that there is no PID loop that requires tuning
[13:38:42] <skunkworks> alex_joni: the pjirc help says there is a 'name' command but I can't seem to make it work - says unknown command.
[13:39:05] <alex_joni> skunkworks: don't think I can do anything
[13:39:05] <alex_joni> :(
[13:39:13] <anonimasu> alex_joni: dunno
[13:39:16] <jepler> also emc2 is much better at respecting the velocity and acceleration limit you specify in your .ini, even over short times. I believe that failing to do this could cause stepper motors to stall (but would be relatively harmless with servos)
[13:39:19] <paragon36> In EMC my steppers on my Denford Starmill did not run very smoothly due to I guess the pulse rate... That was running on an old pentium pro 200 though. Just thinking of tying again rather than using the Denford DOS base software.
[13:39:25] <skunkworks> alex_joni: ok - thanks
[13:40:00] <alex_joni> skunkworks: still looking
[13:41:04] <jepler> paragon36: the maximum pulse rate is not much higher in emc2 than it was in emc1 -- the default emc2 BASE_PERIOD is 50000ns
[13:41:48] <jepler> most machines will work at 20000ns, and a few brave people have gone down to 7000ns. most people just get lockups if they try that.
[13:42:34] <jepler> I don't remember the details of the emc1 step generator, but I would not be surprised if the emc2 one did a bit better at what you call "smoothness"
[13:43:23] <paragon36> When I ran the Mill using it's native dos software which sends commands via the serial port the steppers where silk smooth and had a nice sound to them on move's... But with EMC they sounded a lot rougher with more vibration.
[13:43:30] <alex_joni> skunkworks: it can be done.. however, only SWP has currently access rights
[13:44:30] <skunkworks> alex_joni: Cool - thanks
[13:45:12] <paragon36> What could I use a pulse doubler and would this be a recommended method increase the pulse stream?
[13:46:14] <lerman_____> lerman_____ is now known as lerman
[13:47:51] <jepler> paragon36: if you have a fast internet connection, you might want to just download the emc2 live cd and try it -- to see whether emc2 feels any better than emc1
[13:48:59] <skunkworks> paragon36: I ran emc1 for a bit befor finding emc2 - In my opinion - the steppers ran much smoother with emc2.
[13:49:53] <paragon36> Jepler I have a copy of EMC2 installed but I have been using it to experiment with servos.... There no harm intrying it though just need to do the re-wiring...
[13:50:59] <paragon36> Thanks chaps....
[13:51:36] <paragon36> Ill catch you all later .... just been summoned to a meeting :-(
[13:51:40] <jepler> paragon36: if the mill is on a parallel port, then you shuld just be able to change the .hal files
[13:51:40] <anonimasu> laters
[13:51:44] <jepler> see you paragon36
[13:53:51] <alex_joni> skunkworks: can you try now?
[13:53:54] <alex_joni> I worked my magic :D
[13:55:22] <skunkworks> You are so good
[13:55:26] <skunkworks> let me see
[13:55:34] <skunkworks> biab
[13:55:34] <alex_joni> 15:55 -!- alex_joni741 [n=alex_jon@81.196.65.201]
[13:55:34] <alex_joni> 15:55 -!- ircname : EMC IRC User
[13:55:34] <alex_joni> 15:55 -!- channels : #emc
[13:55:34] <alex_joni> 15:55 -!- server : irc.freenode.net [http://freenode.net/]
[13:56:21] <skunkworks> Cool - thanks alex - that worked
[13:58:04] <alex_joni> np
[13:58:15] <alex_joni> wasn't that hard :)
[13:59:08] <skunkworks> Thats good - what was it?
[13:59:29] <alex_joni> had to patch a file in a zip, remove the component, and install/configure it again
[13:59:39] <skunkworks> skunkworks n=skunkwor 68-115-41-210.static.eucl.wi.charter.com * EMC IRC User
[13:59:44] <skunkworks> sweek
[13:59:46] <skunkworks> sweet
[13:59:49] <skunkworks> ;)
[13:59:52] <alex_joni> <param name="name" value="EMC IRC User">
[14:00:15] <skunkworks> ok - in the directions it sounded like I could change that here.. But I guess not.
[14:01:49] <alex_joni> it was a matter of changing a param in a webpage
[14:02:00] <alex_joni> you usually can do that if you own the page :)
[14:02:03] <lerman_____> lerman_____ is now known as lerman
[14:02:30] <skunkworks> :)
[14:08:39] <fenn> ^eugenics: who's working on a hexapod?
[14:16:05] <alex_joni> hmmm.. tft's are cheap these days
[14:16:48] <alex_joni> just got a nice 19" for 250$, DVI, 1280x1024
[14:17:28] <anonimasu> :)
[14:17:30] <anonimasu> yep
[14:17:47] <anonimasu> hm.. the design of this thing seems better and better..
[14:18:24] <alex_joni> heh
[14:21:27] <anonimasu> seems like a single beam is feasible..
[14:21:40] <anonimasu> resonant frequency ends up at 17.555hz
[14:26:28] <paragon36> just got a nice 19" for 250$, DVI, 1280x1024 ==== Dam ..... things are cheap in the US of A
[14:26:30] <skunkworks> we always wanted to make a plasma table - the plan was to have it fold up against the wall when not in use
[14:27:07] <skunkworks> paragon36: alex isn't in the us.... :)
[14:27:48] <paragon36> Oooops :-) it was the $$$
[14:28:44] <paragon36> Skunkswork what you mention with a fold away table is the aprouch I looking at for CO2 laser cutter due to space issues.
[14:29:20] <anonimasu> skunkworks: mine'll be a single beam design..
[14:29:33] <anonimasu> :)
[14:29:34] <anonimasu> or well single rail..
[14:29:36] <anonimasu> for the X
[14:30:05] <paragon36> No Y ?
[14:30:19] <anonimasu> yeah..
[14:30:28] <anonimasu> it'll be a one meter beam hanging from the X..
[14:30:37] <anonimasu> without support in the other end
[14:30:54] <paragon36> I think I follow you!
[14:30:59] <anonimasu> T
[14:31:00] <anonimasu> shaped..
[14:31:25] <anonimasu> I'm working on a drawing :)
[14:31:45] <anonimasu> but so far the beam seems sturdy enough not to deflect..
[14:32:49] <paragon36> Like to see the drawing when it complete!
[14:33:14] <anonimasu> it'll be in like 6 hours..
[14:33:15] <anonimasu> or so
[14:33:22] <skunkworks> paragon36: we have a 1kw laser here at work.. comes in handy ;)
[14:33:30] <paragon36> Ive just been trying to get my head around this pluto-p board that Im expecting any day now
[14:33:47] <jepler> paragon36: any specific questions?
[14:33:53] <paragon36> 1kw at the lasing end or power supply?
[14:33:55] <jepler> paragon36: I'm not very good at writing documentation
[14:34:05] <skunkworks> paragon36: lasing end..
[14:34:25] <skunkworks> (rated at 800w but we seem to get 1kw easy out of it) co2
[14:35:02] <paragon36> Dam that is awsome power foe example a 20 watt co2 laser will cut 10mm - .5 inch acrylic at a clip
[14:35:53] <paragon36> That could be 1kw when focused down to microns ?
[14:36:05] <skunkworks> we mostly cut maple die boards ;)
[14:36:51] <skunkworks> some plastics and very little metal.
[14:37:43] <paragon36> How long is the laser tube ... they say 1 meter = just under 100 watts at the output coupler though there are some highbrid discharge lasers that are shorter
[14:38:13] <paragon36> thats 100 watts per cm 2
[14:38:23] <skunkworks> This is a forced air (what ever it is called) the tube is a bit over 1 meter.
[14:38:57] <skunkworks> not a slowflow <-is that it
[14:39:57] <paragon36> I'd guess its probably about 100 watts at the OC but when focused to the 100 micron point the wattage at the point is BIG
[14:40:45] <SWPadnos> wattage is the same. power density is BIG! ;)
[14:41:00] <paragon36> May be higher wattage if its not a slow flow .... I think slow flow is araound 4.5% CO2 , 5% N2 and the rest being made up of Helium
[14:41:33] <paragon36> SwPadnos .... Agreed
[14:42:27] <SWPadnos> sorry - that was one of those "it's not oz/in, it's oz*in or oz-in" things :)
[14:42:29] <paragon36> Jepler :- What do I need to do to get two servo running via EMC2 and Pluto-p ?
[14:42:37] <paragon36> :-0
[14:42:47] <paragon36> :-)
[14:43:52] <jepler> paragon36: a PC running emc2 "CVS HEAD", an epp parport, the pluto board, and suitable servo amplifiers
[14:45:15] <paragon36> OK got all of that Jepler but am waiting for the pluto to arrive which could be anytime now. I was going to an L298 connected to pittman lo-cog 24v servos
[14:45:51] <paragon36> src/hal/drivers/pluto_servo.comp ??
[14:46:02] <jepler> paragon36: yes that's the source code for the portion of the driver that runs on the PC
[14:46:29] <jepler> paragon36: you will hook the UP and DOWN outputs of pluto to the INPUTn inputs of the L298
[14:46:49] <paragon36> does it not get made automaticaly with the HEAD
[14:47:03] <jepler> it should automatically be compiled
[14:47:13] <jepler> do you not have pluto_servo.ko in rtlib/ ?
[14:47:28] <paragon36> Ill have to check ... one sec
[14:48:28] <paragon36> Yes I have Jepler!
[14:49:53] <jepler> you'll also need to hook the ENABLE lines of the L298 to something, so that you can pull that line LOW (I think) to enable the L298
[14:50:06] <alex_joni> you can connect to GND :D
[14:50:36] <jepler> once you've hooked up the L298's INPUT and ENABLE lines, you can make the motor attached to UP0/DOWN0 spin back and forth with this hal file: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/pluto.hal
[14:50:42] <jepler> scripts/halrun -I pluto.hal
[14:50:55] <jepler> that's just varying the PWM output, not doing "closed loop"
[14:51:28] <paragon36> Ok so that hal does not read the encoder?
[14:52:07] <jepler> yes, it does, but that's a later step
[14:52:42] <paragon36> Sorry :-)
[14:53:04] <paragon36> Always running befor I can walk ;-)
[14:53:22] <jepler> next you'll hook up the phase A and phase B quadrature outputs to the pluto's quadrature inputs -- I recommend using an external RC network + schmitt trigger to condition the signals first, because the quadrature inputs are polled at a very high rate and are thus noise sensitive.
[14:53:54] <jepler> but if you want to rush in, just hook the quadrature lines to the inputs on pluto, adding a pull-up resistor if appropriate
[14:54:07] <paragon36> OK
[14:54:36] <jepler> then in hal you'll be able to see the 'counts' pin change as you rotate the shaft (or as it is rotated back and forth by the sine-wave of the pluto.hal file)
[14:54:55] <paragon36> OK
[14:55:10] <jepler> once you've got that working for all your axes (moving and seeing feedback) you can do the PID tuning, a topic I'm far from an expert on
[14:56:25] <paragon36> Jepler here is where Im a little confused :-
[14:57:23] <paragon36> Is there any gui available using the pluto-p (ie Axis) or is it command line only ie #halcmd etc
[14:57:43] <jepler> yes, of course
[14:58:07] <paragon36> OK this is where you can see I very green regarding EMC2 ;-)
[14:58:51] <paragon36> So do you have a pluto.ini file ?
[14:58:59] <cradek> EMC works the same way no matter what hardware interface you have - that's the "abstraction" part of HAL
[14:59:26] <jepler> cradek has a lathe configuration that works with pluto, perhaps he would be willing to check it in to CVS or give you a copy.
[14:59:32] <paragon36> Hence the pins / param etc with .hal
[14:59:54] <cradek> yeah, I could do that
[15:01:18] <paragon36> That would be great as I am currenty only interested in 2 axis's ... Also cradek I would be interested in know ing what timing cog combo you used on your lathe (pittman servos) as I am also considering convertin a 7x12 lathe to cnc
[15:01:43] <cradek> I used 3:1 speed reduction on 1mm leadscrews
[15:02:09] <cradek> because those motors spin FAST
[15:02:29] <paragon36> yeah 4000 - 8000 rpm right?
[15:02:53] <paragon36> Is that motor a 9000 series?
[15:03:36] <cradek> I think my jog speed is about 4500 rpm at the motor
[15:03:35] <paragon36> Just it looks identical to the motors I have. Very well built!
[15:03:40] <cradek> thank you
[15:03:46] <cradek> I'm not sure about the model, they're from a junkbox
[15:05:08] <skunkworks> junk box? http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/SERVO.JPG
[15:05:49] <cradek> yep something like that
[15:06:08] <paragon36> How will I get the config files from you cradek? Oh and do I also need to re-make the pluto.rdf file which means downloading Quartus II etc etc?
[15:06:31] <cradek> no the rdf file will be fine as-is.
[15:06:39] <cradek> I'm cleaning up my config and will commit it to cvs.
[15:06:43] <paragon36> Nice junk box :-)
[15:07:08] <skunkworks> that is less than 1/10th of 1 percent of our 'junk' ;)
[15:07:17] <paragon36> Thank you Cradek look forward to seeing it
[15:07:53] <skunkworks> The actual pluto 'firmware' doesn't change - it is how you hook emc to it in hal that does.
[15:07:55] <jepler> paragon36: once cradek puts it in CVS you'll just have to do a "cvs up -Pd" from the top directory
[15:09:49] <paragon36> It's slowly starting to fall into place ... Im still going through the HAL guide | Thanks jepler!
[15:11:15] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/ (Submakefile index.tmpl): copy pluto_servo.html into html documentation and provide a link to it from the html documentation index
[15:20:46] <awallin> hi all
[15:21:36] <alex_joni> hi
[15:22:53] <paragon36> Hello
[15:23:34] <jepler> it's when anders connects from orbital-death-ray.physics.helsinki.fi that we really have to worry
[15:24:49] <awallin> ;)
[15:24:50] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/lathe-pluto/ (emc.tbl emc.var lathe-pluto.hal lathe-pluto.ini):
[15:24:50] <CIA-8> Sample configuration for servo lathe using pluto controller for
[15:24:50] <CIA-8> encoder counting and pwm generation. Threading is supported,
[15:24:50] <CIA-8> one home/limit switch on X.
[15:24:50] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/Makefile:
[15:24:51] <CIA-8> Sample configuration for servo lathe using pluto controller for
[15:24:53] <CIA-8> encoder counting and pwm generation. Threading is supported,
[15:24:57] <CIA-8> one home/limit switch on X.
[15:26:22] <jepler> cradek: thank you
[15:26:35] <cradek> welcome. I hope it's right, I can't really test it right now.
[15:27:02] <awallin> cradek: do you have a servo lathe already?
[15:27:21] <cradek> awallin: yes I converted my sherline lathe
[15:27:43] <awallin> any better than with steppers?
[15:27:55] <paragon36> Hi cradek is this in the head now emc.tbl emc.var lathe-pluto.hal lathe-pluto.ini or am I missunderstanding what I am reading from CIA-8 ?
[15:27:55] <cradek> awallin: yes, like night and day
[15:28:21] <cradek> paragon36: yes those are in HEAD - in your emc2.head directory, do a 'cvs up -dP' and you will get them
[15:28:57] <cradek> awallin: X axis: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/DSCN6290.JPG
[15:28:59] <awallin> cradek: ok, sounds good, as I am converting a mill from steppers to servos right now... so when will we see more threading videos from you ??
[15:29:17] <cradek> awallin: one of these days :-)
[15:30:06] <awallin> ok... those look like pretty small servos. well it's a small machine I guess
[15:30:31] <cradek> awallin: with the gearing they are very strong. the leadscrew pitch is 1mm
[15:30:41] <paragon36> Cool got it ... Thank you!
[15:31:22] <cradek> paragon36: you'll have to 'make' in src, but then you should be able to run the config (I think)
[15:32:07] <paragon36> Running a make as we speak ... :-)
[15:32:17] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/pluto_servo.html: fix link to html version of manpage
[15:32:54] <cradek> awallin: rapid speed is 1500mm/min, accel is about 800mm/s2 if I remember right
[15:33:30] <awallin> cradek: ok, do you remember the specs with the steppers
[15:33:30] <paragon36> OK this is going to appear really dumb but is CIA-8 a real person or is this from the CVS
[15:33:43] <awallin> paragon: it's automagic
[15:33:56] <jepler> CIA-8 reports on the changes to the CVS, as well as a few other things -- it's a bot
[15:34:10] <jepler> MAX_VELOCITY = 25.4
[15:34:10] <jepler> MAX_ACCELERATION = 600
[15:34:15] <lerneaen_hydra> the devs would like you to think it's a bot, but in reality it's a small chinese slave that alex joni has in his basement and feeds rice every now and then
[15:34:32] <paragon36> Yeah I thought it may have been but had to ask .... lol
[15:35:56] <cradek> awallin: the nist-lathe (sherline steppers as shipped) is 580mm/min rapid, accel 128mm/sec2
[15:36:20] <cradek> awallin: note: I don't know what sherline recommends, those are the numbers I came up with
[15:36:58] <paragon36> Was the speed a lot slower without the pluto-p board Cradek?
[15:37:07] <cradek> the machines are a bit different: the nist lathe has 1/20 inch screws, mine has 1mm
[15:37:22] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: why such a slow maxvel?
[15:37:32] <cradek> paragon36: no, but it was much less smooth, since the encoder resolution was lower and the number of pwm levels was low
[15:37:54] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: the nist-lathe has low powered unipolar steppers - they can't go any faster.
[15:38:15] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: oh, I thought this was the servo-lathe you were talking about
[15:38:21] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: isn't your stepper lathe about that slow?
[15:38:28] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, it's 700
[15:38:41] <cradek> no, read back more carefully :-) I'm comparing the two lathe setups
[15:38:58] <fenn> 700 mm/s^2 or 700mm/s?
[15:39:18] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, cool
[15:39:18] <fenn> coz the second one's pretty darn fast
[15:39:26] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: why even have a maxaccel?
[15:39:29] <lerneaen_hydra> (with servos)
[15:39:43] <fenn> to keep following error as low as possible
[15:39:43] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: to keep following error down
[15:39:55] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm ok
[15:40:13] <fenn> also its really groovy to watch if you turn it all the way down
[15:40:38] <paragon36> cu all soon off to the meeting I was supposed to have had at 2pm ...
[15:41:37] <jepler> wow, in lathe-pluto, the INPUT_SCALE corresponds to a distance 19 times smaller than the INPUT_SCALE on nist_lathe
[15:41:49] <cradek> oops I left FERROR turned up in that config (I was tuning)
[15:42:02] <jepler> 1|6000 mm vs 1|8000 in
[15:42:08] <cradek> jepler: yeah it has a LOT of counts
[15:42:16] <cradek> no wonder it's so smooth
[15:42:23] <jepler> no wonder you couldn't software-count it
[15:42:36] <lerneaen_hydra> eek
[15:42:36] <cradek> yes
[15:42:46] <lerneaen_hydra> what type of encoder is on the pluto-lathe?
[15:42:58] <cradek> whatever came on the motor
[15:43:01] <jepler> nothing special: 500 cycles/rev
[15:43:06] <jepler> "x4" mode, 3:1 pulley
[15:43:10] <lerneaen_hydra> and isn't 1/6000th mm a little uneeded?
[15:43:19] <fenn> jepler: are there really no cheap xilinx boards available? i've heard bad bad things about altera's software
[15:43:22] <cradek> that's just how it worked out
[15:43:28] <lerneaen_hydra> granted it will be +- a few steps (+-5)?
[15:43:37] <lerneaen_hydra> so that gives 1/600thmm
[15:43:42] <fenn> jepler: in other words.. why did you pick that particular board?
[15:43:55] <cradek> it stays within .01mm on rapids
[15:43:57] <lerneaen_hydra> not that bad, I'd like that resolution on my lathe ;)
[15:44:09] <jepler> fenn: I didn't look too extensively.
[15:44:28] <fenn> will most of the vhdl and hal code port to other types of fpga's
[15:44:29] <fenn> ?
[15:44:32] <jepler> fenn: I didn't want a rs232 serial or usb serial device, pluto-p was one of the first boards I found that was parallel interface.
[15:44:46] <SWPadnos> fenn, yes, it will mostly port to other chips
[15:45:58] <jepler> fenn: also if you want 5V compatible I/Os your choices are limited -- all the newest families are using <3.3V for their VCC_io
[15:46:14] <SWPadnos> here;s a $100 Spartan-3 board, but not parallel: http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Nav1=Products&Nav2=Programmable&Prod=S3BOARD
[15:46:31] <SWPadnos> a lot of them are <2V now (3.3V tolerant) ...
[15:46:50] <lerneaen_hydra> jepler: does serial have too low throughput?
[15:47:01] <SWPadnos> too much latency also
[15:47:07] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, nasty
[15:48:03] <SWPadnos> consider that even at 115200 baud, it takes nearly 100 uS to transmit a single byte
[15:48:20] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm
[15:48:29] <jepler> 115200 baud is the top speed of standard rs232 serial ports
[15:48:33] <lerneaen_hydra> I see
[15:48:58] <SWPadnos> even at a megabit per second, it's 10 uS per byte
[15:48:57] <fenn> there are 5V spartans also
[15:49:11] <SWPadnos> fenn, only the spartan and spartan-2 are 5V
[15:49:11] <fenn> i cant imagine needing anything fancier for a cnc machine
[15:49:23] <SWPadnos> I'm pretty sure the Spartan-3 is 3.3V
[15:49:41] <SWPadnos> fenn, there's this company called Mesa Electronics ... :)
[15:49:46] <fenn> oh pooh
[15:50:00] <skunkworks> fenn: the pluto board was $60
[15:50:02] <skunkworks> :)
[15:50:10] <fenn> the chips are $15 there's no way i'm paying $200 for some pcb that has crappy connectors on it
[15:50:59] <jepler> crappy covers the pluto-p board too
[15:51:12] <lerneaen_hydra> jepler: how crappy is crappy?
[15:51:34] <fenn> http://www.fpga4fun.com/board_pluto-P.html
[15:51:45] <fenn> ... none apparently!
[15:52:05] <jepler> the biggest sign of crappiness is that he runs the whole thing off 3.3V, but you're supposed to use 2.5V for VCC_core and 3.3V for VCC_io
[15:52:19] <lerneaen_hydra> O.o
[15:52:30] <SWPadnos> hmmm - the lowest cost I see (at DigiKey, in single quantity) for a 200k gate Spartan is $28.56708
[15:52:33] <jepler> the connector layout could be much better (and there could be about 15-20 more user I/Os) but that would have increased the PCB size
[15:52:34] <lerneaen_hydra> instead of having a voltage regulator or zener diode?
[15:52:43] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, I see
[15:53:07] <jepler> those are the main things that come to mind
[15:53:14] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: I just had a THK/SKF app engineer here :9
[15:53:23] <lerneaen_hydra> SKF?
[15:53:25] <fenn> 122-1340-ND
[15:53:26] <lerneaen_hydra> cool
[15:53:30] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: seems like a single THK slide would work for the whole X axis..
[15:53:33] <anonimasu> with the 1m beam..
[15:53:36] <anonimasu> without deflection at all..
[15:53:43] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, without a stiffener?
[15:53:47] <anonimasu> yeah
[15:53:54] <anonimasu> jsut a beam bolted to the carrige..
[15:53:55] <SWPadnos> fenn, that's a spartan-3. it isn't 5V tolerant
[15:53:56] <lerneaen_hydra> what do the slides look like?
[15:54:02] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: pretty wide..
[15:54:08] <anonimasu> he showed some in a catalog..
[15:54:07] <lerneaen_hydra> thickness?
[15:54:12] <jepler> bbl
[15:54:13] <fenn> SWPadnos: i could've swore you said spartan-3
[15:54:32] <SWPadnos> nope, spartan-2
[15:54:33] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: I have no data, he'd throw something toghter
[15:54:38] <lerneaen_hydra> ok
[15:54:42] <lerneaen_hydra> expensive?
[15:54:44] <anonimasu> I also spoke to the solectro.se guys about slides and stuff..
[15:54:44] <SWPadnos> the Digilent board is spartan-3 though (I think)
[15:54:54] <anonimasu> belt driven..
[15:54:55] <anonimasu> modules..
[15:54:57] <SWPadnos> but that board is only $99
[15:55:08] <anonimasu> about 700eur per axis..
[15:55:13] <alex_joni> bbl
[15:55:14] <lerneaen_hydra> eek
[15:55:38] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: 1400eur for the whole machine..
[15:55:46] <lerneaen_hydra> not that bad
[15:55:56] <anonimasu> that's without building aything except the base..
[15:56:00] <fenn> SWPadnos: looks like the digilent board's outputs go right to the connector
[15:56:10] <fenn> er.. the i/o goes right to the spartan-3
[15:56:17] <SWPadnos> yep. it's a prototyping board, not an industrial control board
[15:56:28] <SWPadnos> yeah. it's "3.3V tolerant" :)
[15:56:36] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: I think the application engineers know..
[15:56:37] <anonimasu> :D
[15:57:03] <fenn> well.. xilinx says you can make it eat 5v signals with a simple resistor
[15:57:17] <fenn> so.. resistor networks pack pretty well
[15:57:26] <lerneaen_hydra> one thing that I thought of, would be be easy to set up kins in EMC to have a plotter that is based on a slide with a pen, and the entire slide can be rotated paralel to the paper?
[15:57:30] <SWPadnos> yes, but you may not be able to make it output a 5V logic high
[15:57:31] <fenn> not like i'm worried about space or anything
[15:57:51] <fenn> i'm sure i'm gonna have to deal with this some time in the future though
[15:59:44] <anonimasu> hm..
[15:59:52] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: only problem is 3 weeks of delivery
[16:00:01] <lerneaen_hydra> ack
[16:00:45] <anonimasu> and the gecko's that never arrives
[16:01:06] <fenn> ouch
[16:01:32] <anonimasu> this is starting to make me annoyed..
[16:01:33] <fenn> anonimasu: better brush up on your dave gingery books
[16:01:40] <anonimasu> dave gingery
[16:01:41] <anonimasu> ?
[16:01:54] <fenn> "how to make a metalworking shop from scratch"
[16:02:00] <anonimasu> heh
[16:02:35] <anonimasu> fenn: build speed is a issue, price is not :)
[16:03:03] <anonimasu> it's work stuff, need to cut out 30 of theese things per machine we build..
[16:03:34] <anonimasu> that's lots of manual work :)
[16:03:42] <fenn> steal some parts off your mill?
[16:04:03] <anonimasu> fenn: I need it to make other parts..
[16:04:18] <fenn> hmm.. welp, you're screwed then
[16:04:38] <anonimasu> oh I've got time, just not spare time to spend grinding my own rails ;)
[16:04:46] <anonimasu> fenn: I ordered my geckos way before christmas..
[16:05:06] <anonimasu> 11/16/2006
[16:06:04] <anonimasu> :)
[16:06:32] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: btw the price on the per axis is with motors and all :9
[16:07:11] <anonimasu> though not with drives..
[16:08:56] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, ok
[16:08:58] <lerneaen_hydra> not that bad then
[16:16:12] <skunkworks> my grandfather made a bunch of machines.. Cast aluminum milling machine, shaper..
[16:16:18] <awallin> anyone know a lot about the Tkinter widget? I'm trying to move a line object ... but no success
[16:18:11] <SWPadnos> awallin, move an existing line or change the location where it's initially drawn?
[16:18:20] <SWPadnos> (I know almost nothing about tkinter, btw)
[16:18:45] <jepler> t is a canvas:
[16:18:45] <jepler> >>> item = t.create_line((10,10,20,20))
[16:18:45] <jepler> >>> t.coords(item, 100,200,300,400)
[16:18:50] <awallin> swp: move an existing line
[16:18:59] <SWPadnos> what he said :)
[16:19:09] <awallin> jepler: right! thanks, I was trying itemconfig(line, coords=[...])
[16:19:14] <jepler> you can pass the value returned by create_xxx to .coords() to change the location or shape of the item, or itemconfig to change other properties
[16:21:23] <tomp> awalin: moving line for meter?
[16:21:54] <awallin> tomp: nope, stay tuned and you will find out later today ;)
[16:22:00] <tomp> k
[16:22:45] <paragon36> Regarding rails etc .... http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Marchant-Dice-Ltd
[16:22:50] <SWPadnos> it's the emc version of Qix :)
[16:27:42] <awallin> jepler: how do I find which widget has focus?
[16:28:32] <awallin> self.CURRENT ?
[16:32:25] <paragon36> cradek: what did you use to limit backlash on your pluto lathe?
[16:32:53] <cradek> paragon36: nothing yet, it has plain nuts
[16:33:15] <jepler> awallin: I think that widget.focus() returns the widget that is currently focused as an object, but I'm not 100% sure. usually I rely on the fact that bindings on the widget are only called when it's appropriate, rather than checking what wiget has focus.
[16:33:40] <jepler> er, that's .focus_get() in Tkinter
[16:33:53] <cradek> paragon36: the backlash is pretty significant (.2-.4 mm?) which was not a problem when it was a manual lathe. now it might be, and I'm not sure what to do about it.
[16:34:32] <awallin> jepler: OK, so I might bind the same function to several widgets... maybe that's better
[16:34:56] <paragon36> cradek: Yeah that's a lot how about filling the nut with moglice?
[16:35:08] <cradek> moglice?
[16:35:41] <SWPadnos> moglice = semi-liquid filler that cures to a very hard surface - used for repairing ways and the like
[16:35:51] <paragon36> I came across someone mentioning today on my search regarding backlash
[16:36:03] <cradek> how do you get it to stick to the nut but not the screw?
[16:36:04] <paragon36> yes that it SWpadnos ..
[16:36:16] <SWPadnos> greaese the screw before you pour it in
[16:36:26] <SWPadnos> err - coat it eith release material
[16:36:33] <SWPadnos> s/eith/with/
[16:36:57] <cradek> interesting
[16:37:13] <paragon36> No harm in trying
[16:37:39] <SWPadnos> it's pretty expensive as I recall
[16:37:58] <paragon36> I think you can melt it out and repour as it wears! Not sure on the price.
[16:38:19] <anonimasu> hm..
[16:38:28] <anonimasu> what's the diff between g201/g202?
[16:38:40] <SWPadnos> there's a place that has it for ~10 EUR / 100g
[16:38:52] <lerneaen_hydra> SWPadnos: what's the density?
[16:38:54] <SWPadnos> G202 includes the 100 uF cap in it, I think
[16:38:59] <lerneaen_hydra> is 100G enough for a screw?
[16:39:02] <SWPadnos> http://www.moglice.com/
[16:39:05] <lerneaen_hydra> err, 100g
[16:39:06] <SWPadnos> I don't know ;)
[16:39:20] <paragon36> 100g should be plenty for multiple application I would think
[16:39:28] <lerneaen_hydra> ok
[16:39:33] <SWPadnos> I suspect it's around the density of delrin
[16:39:37] <anonimasu> hm..
[16:39:37] <paragon36> You only need a thin layer right?
[16:39:42] <anonimasu> does anyone of you know?
[16:39:52] <SWPadnos> anon: G202 includes the 100 uF cap in it, I think
[16:40:03] <anonimasu> nothing else?
[16:40:09] <mtedad> looking for the origin of watchdog-reset with motenc? no pin to connect to?
[16:40:14] <SWPadnos> there may be some other protections ...
[16:41:04] <SWPadnos> ah, ok. the G202 has some of the features of the vampire - short-circuit protection at least
[16:41:23] <anonimasu> well, mail's sent..
[16:41:28] <anonimasu> hope they can ship somehting faster.
[16:42:14] <paragon36> What do you think of the price of these rails and bearings? Look pretty cheap for UK supplies http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Marchant-Dice-Ltd
[16:43:02] <cradek> hi ray
[16:43:12] <SWPadnos> paragon36, the rails themselves look like they're pretty thin-walled
[16:43:27] <paragon36> The hardness ?
[16:43:28] <SWPadnos> compared to 80-20 ( http://www.8020.net, I think)
[16:43:43] <SWPadnos> no, just not much in the cross-section
[16:43:58] <paragon36> Oh are you looking at the flat rails?
[16:44:12] <SWPadnos> no, the 20x20, 20x40, 40x40 ...
[16:44:15] <SWPadnos> well, maybe :)
[16:44:21] <SWPadnos> depends on what you call flat :)
[16:45:01] <paragon36> I was looking at the round rails with bearing carriers and rail supports for a gantry type setup
[16:45:20] <SWPadnos> ah - I didn't get that far since shipping from the UK isn't too good for me :)
[16:45:57] <paragon36> Oh your spoilt for choice in the US ... ;-)
[16:46:21] <mtedad> Ray, when are you going to pick your lift truck up.
[16:46:22] <jepler> is "moglice" a pun in german? (on möglich)
[16:46:35] <lerneaen_hydra> jepler: haha, could be
[16:46:43] <jepler> (meaning "possible"/"feasible")
[16:48:45] <rayh> Hi Chris, guys
[16:51:16] <awallin> jepler: you know how dragging would be detected (bound to methods) in a tkinter canvas?
[16:51:40] <awallin> that is, movement with the left mouse button down
[16:51:48] <SWPadnos> ooooh - cool :)
[16:51:58] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos thinks he knows what awallin is doing
[16:52:22] <awallin> * awallin also thinks I know...
[16:52:42] <cradek> reinventing fuglui?
[16:53:32] <paragon36> Cradek I saw a homemade anti backlash device in model engineer magazine some time ago. It consisted of 3 small lengths of screw rod set in a trianglar shape the leadscrew would ride between the 3 small screws which could then be ajusted axial to tighten each one individuly thus eliminating backlash .... does this make sense as it is hard to explain!
[16:54:11] <jepler> awallin: you can bind <Button1-Motion> to trigger on motion events only when the left mouse buttno is pressed
[16:54:24] <jepler> button, that is
[16:54:44] <jepler> there's <ButtonRelease-1> for the end of the move and <ButtonPress-1> for the beginning of the move
[16:54:43] <awallin> ah, and the event object will give me some info about coordinates
[16:54:59] <cradek> paragon36: I think I see what you mean
[16:55:22] <jepler> typically you'll record the object and mouse coordinates at <ButtonPress>, modify the object coordinates at every <Button1-Motion>, and finalize the new coordinates at <ButtonRelease>
[16:55:34] <cradek> paragon36: for low cutting forces (engraving), I've successfully used two nuts and a spring on my mill
[16:55:59] <jepler> unfortunately, I can't find a Python+Tkinter example of this
[16:56:03] <jepler> in the code I have laying around
[16:56:22] <awallin> jepler: ok thanks, I think I'll google for an example
[16:56:49] <paragon36> Apparently it was as good as ballscrews but cost nothing but a little skill and time. It won an award I think.
[16:58:34] <jepler> awallin: ah, here's an example -- it's an unfinished editor for the "hershey" font format. http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/hedit.py you also need the hershey font data: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/hershey
[16:58:34] <fenn> paragon36: i've seen similar ones that used either a tapered sleeve and an outer nut, or an o-ring to compress the inner nut
[16:59:15] <fenn> paragon36: i doubt it's "as good as ballscrews" but certainly makes otherwise unusable threads usable
[17:00:47] <cradek> it would be nice to see drawings of those schemes
[17:00:51] <paragon36> Another benifit was ballscrew like friction as the three rods rotate with the leadscrew
[17:01:12] <fenn> oh.. now that's different
[17:01:19] <fenn> neat
[17:01:34] <cradek> paragon36: do you think you could find the magazine?
[17:01:39] <fenn> i thought you just meant a normal anti backlash nut
[17:01:46] <SWPadnos> err - if the rods are rotating, what moves linearly?
[17:01:59] <paragon36> The leadscrew
[17:02:36] <paragon36> OK Ill try and explain a little more and will try and find the article tonight.
[17:04:05] <mtedad> leave
[17:04:59] <fenn> i can picture it.. but not sure what i'm picturing would actually move
[17:07:39] <paragon36> This guy purchased a meter of threaded stud which is cheap (not acme) he cut 3 small sections off about 1.5in each or so. Mounted the small screws in a mount so that they spun freely a hole in the center carried the leadscrew (ie the rest of the threaded rod) ajustments where made on the tree small screws for tightness agains the leadscrew. As the leadscrew turns the three small threaded...
[17:07:42] <paragon36> ...rods rotated with the leadscrew and the leadscrew progressed through the block.... Ouch
[17:08:58] <paragon36> Backlash was minimilised due to the three rods clamping agains the leadscrew
[17:09:56] <steves_logging1> steves_logging1 is now known as steve_stallings
[17:10:42] <cradek> I see, very interesting
[17:11:08] <fenn> paragon36: like this right? http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/irc/backlash-mechanism.png
[17:11:23] <cradek> 404
[17:11:34] <fenn> retry please
[17:12:14] <fenn> with another screw under the blue one
[17:12:16] <cradek> I don't see how it interacts with the outer part (block)
[17:14:02] <paragon36> Thats kind of the idea the outer screws would be mounted in a housing and would rotate freely
[17:14:37] <paragon36> The leadscrew would run freely between the screws
[17:15:11] <paragon36> The outer screws could be mounted in small bearing (either end of each screw)
[17:15:50] <cradek> that is clever
[17:15:51] <simon78> something like: http://www.hobbycnc.hu/CNC/Otletek/Otletek.htm
[17:15:55] <simon78> ?
[17:16:51] <paragon36> Thats the baby ... Or at least a professional version ;-)
[17:17:28] <simon78> there is some DIY there also.
[17:18:09] <fenn> does it eventually unscrew itself?
[17:18:41] <paragon36> Very nice Simon78 quite a hard thing to explain. A picture paints a thous....
[17:19:01] <fenn> added some bearings to my pic
[17:19:36] <fenn> i'm sure it could be better
[17:19:46] <fenn> i dont get the planetary gearing on that link though
[17:19:59] <paragon36> It should'nt Fen as all the parts move together with very little friction as ball screw can without loosing it's balls ;-)
[17:20:36] <cradek> if the collar has (inside) threads, it will definitely unscrew - that's why there are bearings instead
[17:21:12] <simon78> I think that the rollerscrews are actually not threaded.
[17:21:18] <fenn> definitely bookmarked that page
[17:23:30] <paragon36> The roller screw is threaded but not at its ends it sits in bearings the screws engage (same pitch) as the leadscrew
[17:25:00] <simon78> That would mean troubles if one of the small screws slips, wouldnt it?
[17:28:20] <paragon36> I think the screws are ajusted by a small screw axialy so as to take up slack agains the leadscrew thread... but I am not sure
[17:30:03] <fenn> http://www.bash.org/?106579
[17:30:50] <fenn> yes, the design on that webpage is better
[17:31:05] <fenn> with axial adjustment instead of radial adjustment
[17:31:27] <fenn> maybe an eccentric cam would be best
[17:31:46] <awallin> here's the latest pyvcp widget, a jogwheel! http://imagebin.org/6877
[17:32:06] <awallin> it's not ready yet, but it does react to both mouse-wheel and dragging in a circular motion
[17:32:21] <awallin> and the size and the cpr is configurable
[17:32:24] <SWPadnos> cool. that's not what I thought :)
[17:32:52] <fenn> nice work
[17:33:59] <fenn> is there a way to make longer fiducial marks? like 1 per rev, or every 10
[17:34:30] <awallin> that would be easy to make configurable
[17:34:47] <awallin> the screenshot is from a 50 count/rev widget, with ticks at every count
[17:35:14] <fenn> paragon36: i saw this before but never thought of adding "teeth" to it http://www.zero-max.com/products/rohlix/rohlixmain.asp
[17:36:06] <awallin> I'll be back later, hopefully the jogwheel will be in cvs later today
[17:36:36] <paragon36> Wife just called pluto-p appears to have arrived ..... :-) not bad 3 days
[17:40:19] <paragon36> Fen just visited the link ... Now thats clever!
[17:40:40] <skunkworks> I think you got it faster than I did ;)
[17:41:05] <paragon36> ;-)
[17:41:20] <paragon36> Catch you later Chaps ... Leaving work!
[17:43:30] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging1
[17:51:32] <lerneaen_hydra> fenn: how expensive are they?
[17:52:01] <fenn> whats's? the roh'lix? if you have to ask, you can't afford it
[17:52:02] <lerneaen_hydra> and what about crap getting into them? (it would seem that getting rid of stuff on the axle would be quite easy)
[17:52:12] <lerneaen_hydra> fenn: oh, right. ;)
[17:53:27] <tomp> awallin: you beat me! http://imagebin.org/6878
[17:53:30] <skunkworks> we have a few out of an old line printer.
[17:53:55] <skunkworks> our inspection machine has that type of 'screw'
[17:54:26] <skunkworks> linear scale for feedback and the servo spins the 'ballbearing nut'
[17:55:42] <fenn> i bet you can spin the nut a lot faster since you dont have to worry about critical speed
[17:55:52] <fenn> resonance + whipping in the leadscrew
[18:27:33] <lerman_____> lerman_____ is now known as lerman
[18:38:52] <eholmgren> is .hu Hungary?
[18:39:10] <fenn> yes
[18:39:41] <skunkworks> fenn: crappy picture http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/drivescrew.jpg
[18:40:10] <fenn> is that a roh'lix?
[18:40:27] <skunkworks> I didn't look to see if it had a brand on it...
[18:40:37] <fenn> does the "screw" have threads?
[18:40:39] <skunkworks> but 3 bearings at angles do the driving.
[18:40:42] <fenn> ok
[18:40:53] <skunkworks> nope - just a strait shaft
[18:41:25] <fenn> http://www.proginc.com/gantry.htm
[18:41:58] <skunkworks> fenn: very cool.
[18:42:00] <fenn> 100 foot X axis
[18:43:22] <fenn> (OT) apple is demoing their all-in-one touchscreen internet video mac phone + their stock is going through the roof
[18:43:42] <fenn> following along in #mwsf2007
[18:45:01] <fenn> skunkworks: where'd you get that roh'lix thing?
[18:45:24] <paragon36> Apple TV!
[18:45:51] <skunkworks> This is on our 'accugauge' machine. It is a sort of a computerized optical comparator.
[18:58:53] <skunkworks> fenn: http://www.acu-gage.com/3_axis.php?PHPSESSID=2b830ef87a09d17274ad565cd6276fea
[18:59:08] <paragon36> Iv'e got the pluto-p! Do I need to supply power to the jack and if so what voltage? thanks
[18:59:31] <cradek> yes, 5-12 or so, it's not picky
[19:00:25] <paragon36> Thanks cradek just that I noticed something about 3.3v
[19:00:33] <skunkworks> 5 to 9 according to the ad
[19:00:45] <skunkworks> http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_Parallel.html
[19:00:56] <skunkworks> you should have gotten a few pdf's also
[19:01:59] <jepler> paragon36: look at the e-mails they sent you after you bought -- one should have a link to a ".zip" file with a pdf and some other things inside.
[19:02:03] <paragon36> Yep I have .... Just checked my email there's a link to download a .zip file
[19:02:13] <jepler> I almost missed it the first time, too
[19:02:22] <jepler> don't understand why they don't just link to it from their web pages
[19:02:28] <jepler> but it's clearly a deliberate choice, judging from the URL
[19:02:58] <paragon36> How do you install the rdf file from linux Jepler?
[19:03:33] <jepler> paragon36: it is automatically sent to the board each time emc2 starts (at the time you 'loadrt pluto_servo')
[19:03:37] <cradek> paragon36: EMC will send it to the board when it starts
[19:03:45] <cradek> hmm
[19:03:57] <paragon36> Cool ... both of you! :-)
[19:04:00] <jepler> hmm?
[19:04:17] <cradek> just hmm
[19:04:43] <cradek> I think it's pretty cool you can put a bugfix into an emc release then
[19:04:58] <jepler> yes none of this "check the firmware revision", since you know exactly what's in the firmware
[19:05:54] <jepler> this can't work well -- I wonder what the resistance of this "conductive ink" is. http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/01/how_to_postcirc.html
[19:07:23] <cradek> I had that same idea 20? 25? years ago - needless to say, it didn't work
[19:07:54] <skunkworks> http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/01/lego_duck_facto.html
[19:08:04] <skunkworks> lego ducks
[19:09:20] <jepler> I recall seeing plans for a noteboard that you could put LEDs on anywhere you wanted, but if my memory serves they said that the "conductive ink" also served as the current-limiting resistor for the LEDs
[19:09:54] <jepler> (this had alternating rows of power and gnd, with some kind of LED-with-magnet-attached -- the details are very hazy)
[19:13:08] <anonimasu> hm
[19:13:20] <anonimasu> geckodrives will ship tomorrow.. I think :)
[19:15:05] <jepler> paragon36: the LED should glow dimly before programming, and then track pwm-0's duty cycle after programming. you can test that much without attaching anything else to the pluto, by using the .hal file I linked to earlier
[19:15:12] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/pluto.hal
[19:15:38] <anonimasu> :)
[19:15:57] <paragon36> Thanks jepler ... trying to fin a suitable power supply ... lol
[19:16:06] <paragon36> s/fin/find/
[19:18:04] <skunkworks> paragon36: if you like living on the edge - I made a cable that used the usb port to power it..
[19:18:29] <lerneaen_hydra> how much power does the pluto use?
[19:18:30] <awallin> tomp: the image you posted earlier, was that your work for vcp, or an idea for pyvcp?
[19:18:42] <paragon36> BTW Ive took a look at the schematic for L298 driver and was wondering how important the diodes are for the output to the servo. Just that I have been driving my servo / L298 without them!
[19:19:04] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/usb5v.jpg
[19:19:20] <lerneaen_hydra> skunkworks: just be sure not to take more than 100ma
[19:19:21] <skunkworks> paragon36: very important
[19:19:30] <paragon36> is it for emf?
[19:19:40] <jepler> yes
[19:19:43] <skunkworks> lerneaen_hydra: exactly.
[19:19:44] <lerneaen_hydra> skunkworks: aren't they for the inductive "kick" the motor gives?
[19:19:44] <tomp> awallin: i was translating tcl to tkinter for puvcp, but you've done it already, good work!
[19:20:24] <paragon36> So could it do damage to the pluto board or the L298 or both?
[19:20:36] <awallin> tomp: ok, the code for the jogwheel can easily be modified for an analog meter
[19:20:45] <lerneaen_hydra> the L298 (if the diodes are for what I think they are for)
[19:21:21] <skunkworks> honestly - you really should have some sort of isolation between the pluto and the motor drive circuit... Opto-isolators. but cradek has been getting by without with good luck.
[19:21:42] <lerneaen_hydra> skunkworks: the diodes are for the inductance in the motor, right? (di/dt != inf )
[19:21:47] <paragon36> So I presume the diodes take the back EMF (kick) down to GND right?
[19:21:56] <skunkworks> lerneaen_hydra: yes
[19:22:09] <lerneaen_hydra> what's EMF stand for?
[19:22:22] <lerneaen_hydra> the electromagnetic field made by, for example, an inductor?
[19:22:23] <paragon36> Electro motive force I think
[19:22:48] <paragon36> or Electro magnetic feedback ?
[19:22:56] <fenn> electro motive force
[19:23:01] <fenn> aka voltage
[19:23:24] <paragon36> Where di I put those diodes?
[19:23:30] <cradek> paragon36: beware rectifier diodes (1n400x) aren't fast enough
[19:23:39] <cradek> you need fast diodes
[19:23:45] <skunkworks> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_emf
[19:23:45] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/projects/01148303608/l298-servo-sch.png
[19:23:48] <cradek> look in the L298 datasheet...
[19:23:58] <jepler> the diodes go across each end of the motor windings, one up to Vdrive and one down to GND
[19:24:21] <paragon36> just found some UF5400 diodes there quite big! any good?
[19:24:27] <lerneaen_hydra> aren't schottky diodes used for stuff like that?
[19:24:38] <jepler> 3A ultra fast recovery? sounds good.
[19:24:59] <fenn> "(also called back torque)" <-isnt that .. totally wrong and misleading?
[19:25:25] <paragon36> http://www.vishay.com/docs/88756/uf5400.pdf
[19:26:20] <skunkworks> paragon36: I would think those would be fine for the bridge your using. imo
[19:26:27] <paragon36> Excelent I found them straight away just pearing at me ... Now that never happens ... lol
[19:27:33] <lerneaen_hydra> isn't 3A a bit little?
[19:27:59] <jepler> L298 is typically 2A/winding max
[19:28:05] <lerneaen_hydra> that's true
[19:28:18] <jepler> though I'm not clear on how winding current compares to the current the diodes will see
[19:28:36] <jepler> seems like the average should be well under 3A
[19:28:46] <lerneaen_hydra> they're identical, if the circuit is what I think it is
[19:28:46] <jepler> peak may be 150A
[19:28:46] <paragon36> I think I originaly bought these for a L297 - L298 combo (stepper) drive
[19:29:40] <paragon36> Should be ok for bench testing I would think.... Got to be better then none at all :-0
[19:29:59] <lerneaen_hydra> you're lucky you haven't fried the 298's
[19:30:20] <jepler> what voltage are you using for the servos?
[19:30:23] <lerneaen_hydra> then again, if you've run the motors unloaded there wont be much current through them
[19:30:28] <paragon36> 24V
[19:30:47] <paragon36> Got a techtronix power supply with current limit
[19:31:26] <jepler> it would be interesting to know how high the voltage goes at the l298 pin when the switch turns off
[19:31:48] <paragon36> The L298 did get a bit warm befor I limited the current ;-(
[19:31:49] <jepler> you can apply at least 46V to that pin before exceeding the operating conditions
[19:32:18] <lerneaen_hydra> well, you can easily get far over 46V when trying to cut off an inductive load
[19:32:45] <skunkworks> depends on how much of a brick house your power supply is
[19:33:01] <skunkworks> brick house?
[19:34:16] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: aha, it seems that my suspicions were correct yesterday, you don't want to paralelly connect multiple seperate L298's
[19:34:45] <lerneaen_hydra> if you're lucky it will work, if you're unlucky the timing will be different and you'll get nastyness (short
[19:34:51] <lerneaen_hydra> 's to ground)
[19:34:52] <lerneaen_hydra> ack
[19:34:52] <cradek> crap, I was sure I read that somewhere
[19:35:09] <lerneaen_hydra> the internal H bridges can be paralellised
[19:35:24] <lerneaen_hydra> just not multiple ones externally
[19:36:02] <lerneaen_hydra> was there a more high-power version of the L298?
[19:37:16] <jepler> lerneaen_hydra: not that I'm aware of. there are some lower-power (1A?) variants.
[19:37:30] <lerneaen_hydra> argh why doesn't the datasheet have values for the internal resistance and the charge needed to change from high to low...
[19:37:48] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, looks like I may need to go for a discreet solution after all
[19:38:41] <cradek> haha discreet
[19:38:44] <skunkworks> I have a non current limmited circuit for you ;)
[19:38:46] <jepler> it has saturation voltages (pg 3)
[19:39:06] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: what?
[19:39:08] <jepler> I think it's BJT, not MOS
[19:39:10] <lerneaen_hydra> is my spelling that bad?
[19:39:16] <jepler> lerneaen_hydra: "discrete" and "discreet" are two different words
[19:39:22] <lerneaen_hydra> damn
[19:39:26] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: discreet solution = a solution that tries not to attract attention
[19:39:45] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I thought they were just homonyms (sp?)
[19:39:53] <cradek> sorry I don't like to make fun of spelling, but sometimes it's funny
[19:39:59] <jepler> you do so like it
[19:40:03] <cradek> discrete = separate parts
[19:40:09] <lerneaen_hydra> (ie same spelling but different meanings)
[19:40:24] <cradek> nope not this time, they are spelled differently for once
[19:40:39] <SWPadnos> the ICs resisted the discrete resistors' discreet overtures
[19:40:44] <lerneaen_hydra> yet more evidence I need to visit an english speaking country and freshen up my english
[19:40:50] <cradek> jepler: well I try to not do it... :-/
[19:41:05] <paragon36> OK got power supply. plugged pluto into port the LED is lit :-)
[19:41:06] <paragon36> can't get to http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/pluto.hal anyone else having problems?
[19:41:28] <SWPadnos> no problem here
[19:41:50] <jepler> works for me but it's my site. I put the contents of that file here: http://pastebin.ca/311299
[19:41:52] <paragon36> Lost connection!
[19:41:55] <jepler> paragon36: what error do you get?
[19:42:20] <paragon36> ntl connection drops periodicaly
[19:42:33] <paragon36> cable modem issue
[19:43:29] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: at least I'm not mixing in swedish words where I shouldn't.
[19:43:30] <SWPadnos> it's short, here it is:
[19:43:32] <SWPadnos> loadrt pluto_servo
[19:43:32] <jepler> you want to: scripts/run -I pluto.hal
[19:43:33] <SWPadnos> loadrt threads name1=thread period1=1000000
[19:43:35] <SWPadnos> loadrt siggen
[19:43:36] <SWPadnos> setp pluto-servo.pwm-0-enable 1
[19:43:36] <jepler> er
[19:43:36] <SWPadnos> addf pluto-servo.read thread
[19:43:39] <SWPadnos> addf siggen.0.update thread
[19:43:41] <SWPadnos> addf pluto-servo.write thread
[19:43:42] <SWPadnos> linkpp siggen.0.sine pluto-servo.pwm-0-value
[19:43:43] <jepler> scripts/halrun -I pluto.hal
[19:43:44] <SWPadnos> start
[19:44:27] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: your english is great, I didn't mean to make fun of it.
[19:44:39] <paragon36> It's working! led flashing slowly
[19:44:40] <SWPadnos> most americans mix the two as well
[19:44:47] <cradek> paragon36: wheee
[19:45:04] <paragon36> I have halcmd:
[19:45:03] <lerneaen_hydra> A friend of a friend of mine went to the US once and the police pulled her over, she was rather disconcerted and said with great distress "I have my leg, I have my leg, it's in the glove compartment here!" (leg is swedish for ID)
[19:45:25] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:45:26] <paragon36> lol
[19:45:42] <jepler> poor lady
[19:45:46] <SWPadnos> uh, yes ma'am. please step out of the car for some sobriety tests :)
[19:46:01] <jepler> paragon36: yay!
[19:46:04] <cradek> paragon36: exit halcmd and try it again - see if it resets and then reprograms correctly
[19:46:31] <paragon36> led dimly lit on stopping!
[19:46:54] <paragon36> flashing again ... Thanks a bunch fella's
[19:47:02] <skunkworks> Great!!
[19:47:27] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: still not as good as I would like it to be ;)
[19:48:47] <jepler> lerneaen_hydra: lot's of americans would make that spelling error to
[19:48:55] <cradek> haha
[19:49:01] <cradek> (ouch)
[19:49:03] <jepler> lerneaen_hydra: your on par with all of them
[19:49:32] <cradek> jepler: you cant spell, looser
[19:50:22] <lerneaen_hydra> I hope I don't sound snooty but I would like to be a fair bit better than average, as (from my memory from when I lived in the US) most average people had rather appalling english (IMO)
[19:50:35] <CIA-8> 03awallin 07HEAD * 10emc2/lib/python/pyvcp_widgets.py:
[19:50:35] <CIA-8> A jogwheel that outputs a HAL_FLOAT count
[19:50:35] <CIA-8> reacts to both mouse-wheel and mouse dragging
[19:50:47] <cradek> no snootier than I am
[19:51:00] <SWPadnos> hay - eye rezzent taht!
[19:51:03] <SWPadnos> :)
[19:51:26] <lerneaen_hydra> ^^^^ like that
[19:51:28] <cradek> what you see in this kind of channel is somewhat above average.
[19:51:37] <SWPadnos> I wonder if english has as many homophones as all other languages combined
[19:51:37] <lerneaen_hydra> most definetly so
[19:51:55] <lerneaen_hydra> just a look at myspace makes you feel much, much better
[19:51:59] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:52:04] <SWPadnos> look at AnandTech ;)
[19:52:08] <lerneaen_hydra> haha
[19:52:15] <cradek> a look at myspace makes me feel ... queasy
[19:52:22] <lerneaen_hydra> "of course you need an 800W PSU"
[19:52:31] <SWPadnos> I have to fast for a couple of days or risk damaging the computer
[19:52:35] <lerneaen_hydra> mix in lots of 1337 and bling too
[19:52:36] <paragon36> Does the pluto receive commands to set PWM for it's configured out pins from EMC2 as opposed to EMC2 generating PWM? Additionaly does EMC2 receive data from the pluto as oposed to pulse information thus lowering the load on EMC2 and the printer port?
[19:52:48] <SWPadnos> yes
[19:52:48] <lerneaen_hydra> SWPadnos: ? wth?
[19:53:08] <SWPadnos> fast = don't eat, else I might throw up on the PC ;)
[19:53:19] <cradek> paragon36: every servo cycle, EMC tells pluto what PWM to generate, and pluto tells EMC what the encoder counts are.
[19:53:32] <awallin> cradek: the diff emails are still trunkated, is that what you wanted?
[19:53:42] <paragon36> Much more efficient .... Excellent work!
[19:53:50] <cradek> paragon36: between those communications, pluto happily generates the PWM at high speed
[19:53:57] <cradek> awallin: yes, that's a feature
[19:54:10] <jepler> cradek: it also generates the PWM during the communication
[19:54:22] <paragon36> I was going to attempt this with a PIC chip but this is much better!
[19:54:24] <jepler> it is always generating PWM and reading quadrature
[19:54:25] <cradek> yes, I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't
[19:54:47] <cradek> paragon36: a microcontroller is too slow
[19:54:52] <tomp> awallin: maybe you'd like some key bindings? this bumps the input value by fiddling the var that is monitored with 'trace' bind . <Up> {incr V 5}
[19:55:22] <paragon36> Yes that was one of the problems 20mhz as I recall
[19:55:35] <cradek> I'm worried about taking keybindings from AXIS
[19:55:40] <tomp> k
[19:55:43] <awallin> tomp: I thought about that, but when using pyvcp with AXIS, maybe the arrow keys should be bound only to the AXIS jog buttons
[19:55:49] <paragon36> Getting the soldering iron out...
[19:56:39] <jepler> paragon36: the pluto-p has a 40MHz clock -- but each clock, it reads and updates each quadrature value, and updates each pwm output. that's the difference between an fpga and a microcontroller
[19:57:18] <jepler> if you want your vcp to "dock" with axis, then just be careful that you don't use any of the same keys. of course, by now I think axis has used most of them...
[19:57:31] <paragon36> Nice ... I had never came across them before! Who in the group recognized it potential?
[19:57:50] <jepler> paragon36: there are already some products for emc based around the fpga
[19:58:00] <jepler> paragon36: the m5i20 and jon elson's cards like usc and ppmc
[19:58:02] <cradek> FPGA have been used for this kind of app for a long time
[19:58:27] <jepler> paragon36: jon elson's boards (which also use the parallel port) were my most direct inspiration
[19:59:25] <lerneaen_hydra> jepler: keys for axis are hardcoded, right?
[19:59:26] <paragon36> I remember talking to Jon many many moons ago on this board... when playing with emc1
[19:59:59] <paragon36> and jmkasunich / robin_sz
[20:00:23] <jepler> lerneaen_hydra: essentially, yes. In the docs I gove an example of how to change (or add?) a key binding by using ~/.axisrc but I do not promise that the method will continue to work across versions of axis.
[20:00:30] <jepler> s/gove/give/
[20:00:56] <tomp> can you make a help balloon popup when my finger hovers over a key? :) (on finger-over?)
[20:01:18] <jepler> tomp: that's an interesting idea
[20:01:20] <lerneaen_hydra> jepler: IMO a method of soft-binding them would be nice, becuase then you can remove them from axis and bind them to a pyvcp object
[20:02:48] <lerneaen_hydra> doesn't seem like it would be all too hard to code (but I'm no coder, so again, just guessing)
[20:02:52] <paragon36> Chaps take a look at this I have been in discussion with Evan Malone for a few months now. Thought you may find it of interest! http://www.fabathome.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
[20:03:12] <lerneaen_hydra> paragon36: that reminds me a lot of reprap
[20:03:27] <tomp> what did it say ? "dont touch this button" (hitchhikers guide)
[20:03:36] <paragon36> Yes thats the Bath Uni one is it not?
[20:03:43] <lerneaen_hydra> IMO they're very limited in that they can only do plastics, they work very, very, very slowly, and resolution is somewhat to be desired
[20:04:17] <paragon36> Im quite interest in the use of wax .... for lost wax casting and the like.
[20:04:27] <lerneaen_hydra> that's true
[20:05:26] <paragon36> Still away to go. But they sure have put some work in. All open source too
[20:05:35] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, that's really cool
[20:07:25] <eholmgren> lh: were you the the "south" ?
[20:09:04] <eholmgren> theys talk a lil diffrent down thar
[20:09:45] <eholmgren> the fab@home chocolate gun is awesome
[20:09:53] <fenn> paragon36: how's this different from reprap?
[20:10:05] <lerneaen_hydra> eholmgren: hmm, no, not really actually
[20:10:11] <lerneaen_hydra> mostly I lived in seattly
[20:10:14] <lerneaen_hydra> gah
[20:10:17] <lerneaen_hydra> seattle
[20:10:35] <lerneaen_hydra> I was in florida for a few months before I went to sweden though
[20:10:59] <lerneaen_hydra> probably just some swedish linguistic stuff that's messing my structure up
[20:11:31] <tomp> 3d laser scanner project, i wish this was open src... http://www.cs.tu-bs.de/rob/david.html
[20:11:42] <paragon36> From memory reprap's goal is to make its self where as fab@home ultimate goal is to make machines with built in batteries ready to go (complete)
[20:12:31] <lerneaen_hydra> paragon36: yeah, that's correct
[20:13:00] <tomp> reprap was an effort to make a machine build itself ( reproduce ) but imo the resolution was not good enuf to create the tube for the glue that built the part
[20:13:00] <lerneaen_hydra> reprap's goal seems to be much cooler IMO (like precursor to a von neuman machine)
[20:13:20] <fenn> no of course not
[20:14:09] <fenn> reprap is always going to be missing a few key parts, like electronics, extrusion nozzles, motors
[20:14:42] <paragon36> http://ccsl.mae.cornell.edu/ They play with some nice toys :-)
[20:15:15] <fenn> tho.. some recent developments in polymer electronics will make me eat my words for sure
[20:15:43] <lerneaen_hydra> imo the only replicator worth really looking into is one based on an electron gun that fuses metal particles
[20:15:54] <fenn> sure.. right
[20:15:58] <fenn> as if reprap isnt slow enough yet
[20:16:12] <lerneaen_hydra> electron gun based stuff isn't slow
[20:16:22] <fenn> how many microns/hr?
[20:16:22] <lerneaen_hydra> it's quite fast, just feed in enough power
[20:16:41] <lerneaen_hydra> maybe 1mm^3/s
[20:16:56] <lerneaen_hydra> +- one power of 10
[20:17:02] <tomp> sintering?
[20:17:06] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah
[20:17:11] <fenn> oh
[20:17:14] <paragon36> laser sintering
[20:17:22] <lerneaen_hydra> at least if I recall sintering correctly
[20:17:24] <fenn> i thought you meant.. "shoot the metal particles out of an accelerator"
[20:17:30] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, no no
[20:17:41] <paragon36> co2 laser again right?
[20:17:44] <lerneaen_hydra> the electrons are just to heat the powder up
[20:17:50] <fenn> ok
[20:17:54] <lerneaen_hydra> either laser or electron gun
[20:18:01] <fenn> i was thinking of how to get rid of the laser
[20:18:08] <lerneaen_hydra> you have to do it in a vacuum though
[20:18:32] <tomp> the US gov is working with Uni Mich Grand Rapids... laser sintering, finished by edm,, in a tiny box... idea is to have a toolroom in space... size of microwave... startrek replicator !
[20:18:51] <lerneaen_hydra> finished by EDM?
[20:18:53] <lerneaen_hydra> wth?
[20:18:53] <fenn> you could make an emitter that is shaped like a spherical or parabolic dish, the infrared radiation then becomes focused at a point
[20:18:55] <tomp> the laser sinter was too rough for them :)
[20:19:00] <lerneaen_hydra> oh
[20:19:07] <paragon36> I made a print (albeit basic) using a car fuel injector for delivery. Worked quite well!
[20:19:08] <lerneaen_hydra> why not just edm to begin with?
[20:19:13] <lerneaen_hydra> paragon36: hey, cool
[20:19:24] <fenn> paragon36: what was the material?
[20:19:41] <tomp> add bulk, then subtract, powdered metal easier to carry & store than plates & blocks
[20:19:47] <lerneaen_hydra> tomp: oh, I see
[20:20:19] <tomp> they asked for feasibility... i laughed.. & said that was my prof opinion :)
[20:20:29] <paragon36> water based glue .... I was test consitancies (spelling) I even used some of the wifes facial moisteriser ... lol
[20:20:48] <tomp> cnc poop
[20:20:58] <fenn> tomp: what about laser sinter + soak up liquid bronze with capillary action, then some light machining to finish the rough texture
[20:21:04] <paragon36> Did not know it cost £20 a pop :-(
[20:21:48] <paragon36> I melted some wax and managed to inject that through it ok too.
[20:21:54] <tomp> the idea could be done, but the tolerances they wanted automaticly were .... rocket science.... +/-5um over 150mm
[20:22:00] <fenn> glue + flour? what?
[20:22:02] <paragon36> injection wax.
[20:25:05] <paragon36> http://www.zcorp.com/products/printersdetail.asp?ID=1 uses standard HP print head with a water / startch mix for binder that print on a powder a layer at a time
[20:26:07] <tomp> fenn: i dont know how they'd 'soak up' but filling the material is a good idea, they had already found voids and were working on welding them
[20:26:48] <fenn> tomp: http://www.bathsheba.com/sculpt/process/
[20:27:02] <fenn> scroll down to 3d printing
[20:27:51] <robin_sz> meep?
[20:27:56] <robin_sz> * robin_sz meeps
[20:28:10] <fenn> * fenn throws rotten vegetables at the source of the noise
[20:28:22] <robin_sz> *munch munc
[20:28:24] <robin_sz> h
[20:30:17] <tomp> fenn: nice! 1: this may be some re-use for the edm residue (very uniform metal spheres in .0004 to .0010" dia range , varies with energy) 2: the grant was based on the idea of building accurate hidden voids like in the knots
[20:30:18] <anonimasu>
[20:32:31] <skunkworks>
[20:33:30] <anonimasu> :)
[20:33:32] <tomp> fenn: this action ( the metal printer ) is pretty much like arcing in edm... I've seen twisty towers of carbon/metal sludge build up 2" dia and 6" tall on dirty on machines... this of course is very refined ( and i hope less power... not 8V dc at 300 amps :)
[20:34:09] <fenn> sigh.. at least they put the $20k price sticker right on the front page
[20:34:20] <fenn> for an overgrown inkjet printer
[20:34:54] <robin_sz> heh, looks like I might have the software for my robot !! :)
[20:34:54] <anonimasu> hehe
[20:34:58] <anonimasu> nice!
[20:35:12] <fenn> where from?
[20:35:19] <fenn> * fenn guesses usenet
[20:35:39] <robin_sz> not quite
[20:35:46] <lerneaen_hydra> * lerneaen_hydra guesses a torrent tracker :p
[20:35:52] <anonimasu> robin_sz: look at your pm
[20:35:57] <fenn> cced
[20:36:00] <robin_sz> although I did get one response on usenet
[20:36:02] <lerneaen_hydra> or possibly linuxcnc.org
[20:37:07] <robin_sz> nah
[20:37:13] <robin_sz> none of those ...
[20:37:20] <robin_sz> got 3 sources now!
[20:37:39] <robin_sz> 1) a comau dealer in $far_away_land who wants to help
[20:38:10] <robin_sz> 2) local comau distributor (soon to be ex distributor) who is happy to send the files if he can find them
[20:38:15] <tomp> fenn: the sculpture reminds me of the vampire squid.... Vampyroteuthis infernalis, Nat. Geo. did a special on it
[20:38:34] <robin_sz> 3) the guy who sold it to me has found 6 disks in the bottom of his filing cabinet!
[20:40:02] <fenn> so you got 3 sources of corrupted floppies! :D
[20:40:11] <fenn> maybe you can patch together the good data between all 4
[20:40:48] <robin_sz> well, 2 of the sourrces are not floppy, but email of the files from their archives
[20:44:53] <eholmgren> robin_sz: make sure you examine the code to make sure the robot cannot become self-aware
[20:46:16] <anonimasu> that would suck
[20:47:13] <eholmgren> what would be a good brand/model for an entry-level benchtop lathe?
[20:47:20] <paragon36> Machine rebooted.... pluto happy again :-)
[20:48:34] <cradek> did something go wrong?
[20:49:54] <cradek> eholmgren: your question isn't very specific, hard to say without knowing what you want to do with it
[20:50:56] <paragon36> I executed ./scripts/halrun -I pluto.hal the led went off and did not flash computer rebooted itself I executed ./scripts/halrun -I pluto.hal and its fine now.
[20:51:13] <cradek> hmm that's not right is it
[20:51:32] <eholmgren> cradek: manually turn small parts out of plastic and metal
[20:51:35] <fenn> well, benchtop implies something like emco, taig, sherline
[20:51:50] <fenn> or retrofit a chinese lathe
[20:51:56] <robin_sz> those are a bit mickey-mouse
[20:51:57] <lerneaen_hydra> IMO the lathe I have works quite well
[20:52:10] <lerneaen_hydra> extremely easy to retrofit too
[20:52:11] <robin_sz> myford
[20:52:19] <fenn> myford are indeed very nice
[20:52:21] <fenn> the super 7
[20:52:26] <fenn> but that would be kinda silly to CNC
[20:52:30] <robin_sz> myford are the classic modle engineers lathe
[20:52:38] <paragon36> In all honesty though the reboot could have been down to me as I have a sensistive restart button right on the top of the pc. I was leaning over it checking LED I may have caught it.
[20:52:41] <robin_sz> he said _manual_
[20:52:46] <fenn> oh
[20:52:51] <fenn> wtf
[20:52:54] <lerneaen_hydra> oh
[20:52:55] <fenn> this is a CNC channel!
[20:52:56] <lerneaen_hydra> manual
[20:53:01] <fenn> kick/ban!!!
[20:53:03] <cradek> manual?
[20:53:03] <anonimasu> YEAH!
[20:53:07] <eholmgren> zomg!
[20:53:14] <anonimasu> :D
[20:53:15] <anonimasu> dont be a wuzz now!
[20:53:17] <cradek> eholmgren: will you need single point threading?
[20:53:20] <anonimasu> come over to the dark side
[20:53:41] <cradek> eholmgren: that's a (very) weak spot on the sherline
[20:53:54] <cradek> unless you retrofit with EMC of course :-)
[20:54:01] <paragon36> :-)
[20:54:04] <fenn> er.. dont they come with emc?
[20:54:12] <cradek> MANUAL
[20:54:23] <fenn> oh.. does it even have gears?
[20:54:37] <robin_sz> the sherline mill and lathe are just too "toy" in my opinion .. they work, but not really up to the job of machining much ... more of a CNC demnstrator
[20:54:39] <cradek> yes it has change gears, but no halfnut
[20:54:49] <paragon36> Seriously don't do it ML7 are worth a small fortune in there original state. you will loos money on it!
[20:55:18] <robin_sz> paragon36, could you explain that contradiction?
[20:55:19] <cradek> robin_sz: have you used them?
[20:55:36] <paragon36> ml7?
[20:55:44] <robin_sz> cradek, ive seen them used in the flesh and examined them
[20:56:10] <robin_sz> paragon36, well, if they are worth a small fortune, how could buying one lose you money .. they keep their value very well
[20:56:20] <anonimasu> cnc retrofitting one?
[20:56:23] <robin_sz> oh, yeah
[20:56:26] <robin_sz> dont do that
[20:56:27] <paragon36> CNC retrofit
[20:56:36] <anonimasu> heh.
[20:56:39] <robin_sz> that woudl be as crazy as CNCing a schaublin ;)
[20:56:40] <cradek> something tells me this really is the wrong channel...
[20:56:45] <awallin> tomp, everyone: how's this for an analog meter in pyvcp: http://imagebin.org/6879
[20:57:18] <anonimasu> robin_sz: stfu!
[20:57:18] <anonimasu> :D
[20:57:36] <fenn> where's the kph scale?
[20:57:38] <cradek> oh god
[20:57:45] <tomp> nice work ( where's da code? :-)
[20:57:51] <anonimasu> cradek: ?
[20:57:53] <robin_sz> fenn, well, if he wanted to knwo a good lather to retrofit with CNC .. id have some ideas too, and it wouldnt be a myford thats for sure
[20:58:06] <fenn> robin_sz: well? how bout it?
[20:58:21] <CIA-8> 03awallin 07HEAD * 10emc2/lib/python/pyvcp_widgets.py: Meter - shows the value of a FLOAT with an analog meter
[20:58:25] <fenn> urwick metalmaster
[20:58:26] <awallin> there.
[20:58:29] <lerneaen_hydra> fenn: you mean paces per fortnight
[20:58:30] <fenn> too bad they never made any
[20:58:53] <tomp> awallin: thanks
[20:58:57] <fenn> that's FURLONGS per fortnight, mister!
[20:59:00] <anonimasu> sweet
[20:59:05] <anonimasu> http://www.btinternet.com/~sylvestris/metalmaster/MM2.htm
[20:59:06] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, even better
[20:59:08] <eholmgren> manual with the possibility of me retrofitting it
[20:59:19] <robin_sz> well ... for a floor mounted lathe, I'd suggest a colchester .. good and strong, easily converted to ballscrews etc
[20:59:35] <paragon36> I have one of these everything that fits the myford ml7 fits the Granville Senior 1954 but its a lot heavier than the ML7 http://www.lathes.co.uk/granville/index.html
[21:00:17] <paragon36> I wouldnt retrofit it for the world. Something are better left alone.... my opinion ;-)
[21:00:25] <anonimasu> hm..
[21:00:29] <anonimasu> yeah colchester is a good lathe..
[21:00:46] <paragon36> I like the cochester bantom...
[21:01:27] <anonimasu> though im building a small lathe with linear slides.. instead of retrofitting
[21:01:44] <fenn> anonimasu: that's probably smart
[21:01:45] <anonimasu> the lathe atleast..
[21:02:09] <fenn> you got a lot of projects
[21:02:21] <anonimasu> fenn: yeah, it's one for when stuff calms down..
[21:02:32] <paragon36> Have you thought about retrofitting a 7-12 mini lathe (harbour freight in th US i think) save a lot of time and there ok machines idealy suited to retrofit.
[21:02:35] <anonimasu> plasma is most urgent, as it'll produce stuff..
[21:02:37] <fenn> is most of your work in summer?
[21:02:39] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:02:40] <jepler> how about measuring speed in picas per lustrum?
[21:03:22] <robin_sz> for a bench CNC ... the emco trainign lathes are OK, but the control ois crap ...rip the control off and put EMC on and it might be OK for lighter stuff
[21:03:31] <anonimasu> last summer I was working as race techie/doing development/whatever you would call it..
[21:03:38] <anonimasu> fenn: but this summer im free
[21:03:43] <robin_sz> or the little boxford 125 CNC, again with a proper control would be ok for a bench lath
[21:04:18] <anonimasu> fenn: so now we are preparing for producing what we make..
[21:04:19] <paragon36> Denford starturn?
[21:04:20] <robin_sz> some of the little emco CNC machines are proper slant bed lathes
[21:04:30] <anonimasu> :)
[21:04:33] <robin_sz> denford is another good choice
[21:04:34] <anonimasu> fenn: hence the need for a plasma..
[21:04:43] <fenn> eholmgren: a lot of these lathe brands only exist in UK btw
[21:04:52] <anonimasu> fenn: got a quote for one at 14000eur
[21:04:54] <fenn> *ford
[21:04:58] <anonimasu> without a cnc control. :D
[21:05:01] <robin_sz> Denford are a college training lathe .. nice enough but crap controls
[21:05:10] <robin_sz> some even used a BBC micro!!
[21:05:13] <fenn> why are they all somethingford anyway?
[21:05:18] <anonimasu> fenn: what do you think about that?
[21:05:20] <paragon36> I have the starmill got it cheap as it was not working ... weighs a ton for its size :-)
[21:05:26] <fenn> anonimasu: sounds expensive
[21:05:25] <anonimasu> I almost shit myself :D
[21:05:28] <anonimasu> yeah..
[21:05:54] <skunkworks> http://www.ewingstreet.com/monarch_lathe.htm
[21:05:56] <anonimasu> fenn: though there's 30 pices of one thing at what we build.. each machine :)
[21:06:03] <skunkworks> we have one similar - best lathe I have ever used
[21:06:04] <fenn> $2k for the plasma cutter.. how much was the quote for motor/axis?
[21:06:15] <anonimasu> 740eur..
[21:06:18] <paragon36> I have the bbc manual for the Denford Starmill bring back memorys although I was a 6502 vic20 geek at heart.. lol
[21:06:20] <anonimasu> sealed units..
[21:06:27] <robin_sz> paragon36, I talked a mate out of a starmill and he gat a series 2 bridgeport CNC .. a big bridgeport with servos, for the same money
[21:06:29] <anonimasu> with motors.. and all..
[21:06:34] <anonimasu> that's for 2.5m
[21:06:48] <fenn> so.. 500% profit or so
[21:06:55] <anonimasu> fenn: yeah..
[21:07:05] <paragon36> Robin ... Thats big boy stuff right ... need the space though.
[21:07:13] <robin_sz> true
[21:07:15] <anonimasu> fenn: oh that was for a commercial machine..
[21:07:16] <anonimasu> oxy/plasma..
[21:07:23] <anonimasu> with optical reading head..
[21:07:28] <alex_joni> yuck
[21:07:33] <anonimasu> yeah..
[21:07:59] <anonimasu> building one and having the welder throw stuff at me to draw if more economical
[21:08:21] <paragon36> Robin I think I paid about £150 for and you helped configure EMC1 many moons ago ;-)
[21:08:31] <ds3> anyone messed with laser marking devices?
[21:10:15] <fenn> "optical reading head"?
[21:10:20] <anonimasu> 22yeah..
[21:10:22] <anonimasu> line following..
[21:10:26] <fenn> yeegh
[21:10:28] <fenn> no CNC?
[21:10:30] <ds3> no, marking not just reading
[21:10:34] <anonimasu> fenn: the guy that welds and does stuff dosent know cad..
[21:10:34] <anonimasu> :D
[21:10:48] <fenn> hell, why .. what??
[21:10:52] <fenn> noooo...
[21:11:14] <ds3> was wondering if I can just make marks on wood by leaving a lower power laser focused at a point longer instead of using a higher power laser
[21:11:29] <anonimasu> fenn: insane isnt it?
[21:11:56] <fenn> ds3: you can burn wood with practically any laser
[21:12:08] <fenn> even the $35 IR laser diodes on ebay would do it i bet
[21:12:13] <fenn> 0.5W
[21:12:15] <paragon36> 15 wat co2 laser should do it right?
[21:12:19] <fenn> yes
[21:12:34] <ds3> what about those DVD red diodes claiming 100-200mW?
[21:12:47] <fenn> have you felt a dvd fresh out of the burner?
[21:13:03] <anonimasu> fenn: building one at 700eur per axis seems cheap..
[21:13:04] <ds3> nope.
[21:13:08] <anonimasu> or well 740...
[21:13:15] <anonimasu> fenn: specially since the units are sealed and stuff already..
[21:13:25] <anonimasu> fenn: though cheap is relative..
[21:13:36] <fenn> yeah.. 740/axis isnt cheap enough for me
[21:13:37] <paragon36> http://search.ebay.co.uk/co2-laser_W0QQflocZ1QQfromZR40QQsaslcZ2QQsbrexpZWD2SQQssPageNameZWD2S
[21:14:04] <fenn> but compared to most stuff it is
[21:14:13] <anonimasu> fenn: yeah, though it's a easy way out to avoid having to build stuff by hand as time's a bigger issue :)
[21:14:26] <fenn> i saw some epilog lasers go for $100 on ebay the other day
[21:14:30] <anonimasu> needs to make parts in 2 months or so..
[21:14:33] <anonimasu> at most..
[21:14:55] <fenn> might have had a reserve though
[21:15:34] <anonimasu> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Synrad-CO2-Laser-48-2-25-Watt-beschriften-schneiden_W0QQitemZ260073919058QQihZ016QQcategoryZ12469QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[21:15:38] <anonimasu> sweet!
[21:16:46] <paragon36> Yes I got my eyes on that .... 90 euro delivery though :-(
[21:18:02] <fenn> search.ebay.com/150074756436
[21:18:17] <tomp> i read this morning (CadCamEdmDRO) that there is a Mesa Mi520 version 2 released , no one spoke of it here.... ?
[21:19:17] <anonimasu> http://www.di-soric.de/en/Inductiv_capazitv.htm
[21:19:34] <anonimasu> wrong long
[21:19:35] <anonimasu> link
[21:19:46] <anonimasu> http://www.di-soric.de/en/Inductive_ring_sensors.htm
[21:19:59] <anonimasu> wrong kind of sensors
[21:20:32] <paragon36> nice
[21:20:36] <paragon36> Epilog Mini 8000 18x12 laser
[21:20:41] <anonimasu> robin_sz: are you awake?
[21:23:19] <Jymmmm> Any suggestions of HOW to connect a ground wire to a cold water pipe?
[21:23:52] <skunkworks> Jymmmm: clamp
[21:24:02] <anonimasu> skunkworks: word-theif
[21:24:06] <anonimasu> thief..
[21:24:10] <anonimasu> or however you spell it ;)
[21:24:11] <tomp> hardware stores carry cold water pipe wire clamps
[21:24:16] <Jymmmm> what TYPE of clamp, details man, details!
[21:25:00] <anonimasu> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=GRWP
[21:25:04] <anonimasu> CLAMP CLAMP CLAMP!
[21:25:10] <anonimasu> ^_^
[21:25:34] <Jymmmm> Baaaaaaaaaaaad joke! lol
[21:25:52] <Jymmmm> Oh, never seen one like that before... cool
[21:26:04] <Jymmmm> pretty cheap too
[21:26:08] <anonimasu> check your hardware store :9
[21:26:33] <Jymmmm> On my way there now, thus why I asked. You are some Fart Smellas!
[21:26:39] <anonimasu> :)
[21:27:25] <Jymmmm> okey, off to HD for the 4th time this week *sigh* I hate that place!
[21:27:34] <tomp> but check the connection with megger , your pipe might go into wet sand etc ( and be crap gnd in summer )
[21:27:45] <fenn> what's wrong with a hose clamp? :P
[21:27:46] <Jymmmm> megger?
[21:28:08] <tomp> checks very very good gnd, is hand cranked ohm-meter
[21:28:15] <fenn> if you're gonna do it the wrong way, dont go buy some special purpose thing to do it the wrong way
[21:28:23] <anonimasu> LOL
[21:28:24] <ds3> wet sand in San Jose? Hmmmmmm
[21:28:41] <ds3> more like dry clay
[21:28:58] <Jymmmm> hand cracked ohm meter?! WTH, If you're gonna be on crack, at least share or something!
[21:29:18] <Jymmmm> err cranked
[21:29:19] <tomp> ask a nearby ham radio guy ( one with a tower... he'll know how to check & what works in your neighborhood)
[21:29:38] <paragon36> cradek: regarding the pluto-p board / L298 ... I presume dn0 > input1 (l298) && up0 (pluto) > input2 (l298) ?
[21:29:40] <Jymmmm> * Jymmmm asks himself... Nope, never heard of it.
[21:30:10] <Jymmmm> Though, I did pickup a Discone antenna yesterday...
[21:30:10] <Jymmmm> Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[21:30:17] <Jymmmm> (net split)
[21:30:26] <alex_joni> small one
[21:30:32] <cradek> paragon36: yes, that sounds right
[21:30:50] <Jymmmm> fenn you mean a regular ss hose clamp? How are you suppose to secure the wire? Just pressure?
[21:31:04] <paragon36> Where does the enable go? should it be high all of the time?
[21:31:15] <alex_joni> paragon36: you can link it to axis.0.enable
[21:31:19] <alex_joni> or something like that
[21:31:35] <alex_joni> that way motors are enabled only if emc2 is out of estop and switched on
[21:31:47] <Jymmmm> fenn wire between pipe and clamp ???
[21:31:47] <alex_joni> you can find the exact name by using halcmd, halshow or halmeter
[21:32:14] <Jymmmm> Ok, off to HD
[21:32:36] <tomp> c-clamp grounding tool for welding http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0812231
[21:33:37] <fenn> jymmm yep
[21:34:17] <fenn> jymmm dont bet your life on it
[21:35:07] <cradek> paragon36: see the sample hal config I checked in for you :-)
[21:35:12] <paragon36> A little confused regarding enable after looking at this :- http://emergent.unpythonic.net/files/sandbox/pluto_servo.html
[21:36:31] <anonimasu> :9
[21:36:44] <anonimasu> :)
[21:36:46] <cradek> that file doesn't seem to document the pins on the hal side
[21:37:04] <jepler> hook axis.0.enable to pluto-servo.pwm-0-enable so that when axis.0.enable becomes false, the pluto board won't generate any PWM pulses on the UP or DOWN outputs
[21:37:06] <cradek> although they should be "self documenting" by their names
[21:37:24] <jepler> there's a link to the manpage in there -- that gives the pin names
[21:37:38] <jepler> A list of all HAL function names, pin names and parameter names is in the manual page, pluto_servo.9. http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/pluto_servo.9.html
[21:37:54] <paragon36> Does it give hal pins to physical pluto pins ?
[21:37:55] <cradek> aha!
[21:38:17] <jepler> if you have an enable input on your servo amplifiers you should *also* hook axis.0.enable to one of the pluto's digital outputs, and hook that digital output (with a wire) to your servo amplifier
[21:39:05] <paragon36> URL not found! > http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/pluto_servo.9.html (Broken)
[21:39:08] <cradek> and also pid.X.enable
[21:39:56] <jepler> the real location for those documents is: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/hal/pluto_servo.html and http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/pluto_servo.9.html
[21:40:10] <alex_joni> tomp: I looked at the cad_cam_edm_dro group, but don't see any message about a type 2 5i20
[21:40:20] <jepler> that one in sandbox is old and has an outdated link
[21:40:38] <paragon36> Great got it ... loking now!
[21:40:41] <paragon36> looking
[21:40:44] <tomp> alex_joni: on another machine... will go get it
[21:40:52] <awallin> alex: pretty sure there hasn't been anything about a new mesa card there. I read it regularly...
[21:40:55] <alex_joni> tomp: thanks
[21:41:08] <alex_joni> awallin: tomp just said there was something today earlier
[21:41:16] <alex_joni> might be a different group?
[21:41:42] <awallin> on emc-users aram k asked some questions
[21:41:47] <awallin> and peter w responded
[21:42:11] <cradek> sounds like a totally different product (ethernet??)
[21:44:08] <awallin> I would guess they will make a pci version also
[21:44:31] <awallin> now that I think about it, I think peter w mentioned a move to an fpga with more gates a while back when I got my 5i20
[21:44:46] <awallin> I think the current one has 200kgates
[21:45:17] <awallin> jepler: are you building the pluto vhdl yourself? how many gates does the config require?
[21:45:48] <skunkworks> woo-hoo - christmas here :)
[21:46:26] <awallin> how can you be so happy about 72 TTL pins? ;)
[21:46:39] <jepler> awallin: yes, I wrote the verilog (not vhdl) source that is used in pluto_servo
[21:47:24] <jepler> awallin: it uses 90+% of the 576 logic units in that chip. I don't think their GUI shows an equivalent gate count, or at any rate I don't remember what it was
[21:47:54] <awallin> ok, so it's pretty much at the limit.
[21:48:03] <jepler> yes
[21:48:12] <awallin> I think peter w said their softdmc was pushing the limit for the 200k gate 5i20
[21:48:27] <awallin> but the hostmot:s are much smaller I guess
[21:48:48] <cradek> the 5i20 is 350x as large as the pluto?
[21:50:22] <awallin> cradek: what's the gate count on the pluto ?
[21:50:40] <skunkworks> I thought it said in the datasheet for the fpga
[21:50:57] <cradek> jepler just said 576
[21:51:25] <tomp> alex_joni: from Aram K http://pastebin.ca/311404
[21:52:15] <awallin> cradek: that's logic units, not the same as gate count I think
[21:52:29] <cradek> ok, I wondered if it was some apples-oranges thing
[21:53:56] <skunkworks> 100,000 gates
[21:53:57] <skunkworks> http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/acex.pdf
[21:54:17] <skunkworks> EP1K10TC100 FPGA
[21:54:30] <skunkworks> sorry 10000
[21:54:38] <skunkworks> 10,000 gates
[21:54:53] <cradek> so 20x as big
[21:55:22] <cradek> still an interesting comparison
[21:55:28] <skunkworks> yes
[21:55:32] <awallin> at work we got an NI card for doing some PID loops and filtering etc., just to be sure we got the biggest one, with 3Mgates...
[21:55:41] <awallin> should fit most algorithms we can think of.
[21:56:04] <tomp> new fpga , the epikak1000 :)
[21:56:16] <skunkworks> I was worried there for a second - thinking 100k gates and jepler had issues fitting a servo on the pluto
[21:56:48] <paragon36> Sorry to say Guys but I am still strugling to understand what physical pins from the pluto board should connect to the L298 h-bridge. I have looked at the lathe-pluto.hal file and have no idea. How does one match the pluto man page (hal pins to physical pins on the pluto-p)?
[21:56:53] <awallin> tomp: that's the fpga on the new mesa card?
[21:57:26] <tomp> no, joke: epikak is a universal throw up medicine ( when the poison can be purged )
[21:58:36] <jepler> paragon36: HAL items like pwm-0-xxx affect the signals that appear on the pins marked UP0 and DN0
[21:59:00] <jepler> paragon36: HAL items like encoder-0-xxx reflect the signals that appear on the pins marked QA0, QB0 and QZ0
[22:00:31] <jepler> paragon36: HAL items like dout-0 affect the signal that appears on the pin marked OUT0 (or for dout-10 .. dout-17, they affect one of the shared UP or DN pins)
[22:01:01] <jepler> paragon36: HAL items like din-0 reflect the signal that appears on the pin marked IN0 (or for din-08 .. din-17, the value on one of the Qxy pins)
[22:01:39] <awallin> jepler: you are driving the 4 transistors of a H-bridge directly from the fpga ?
[22:02:15] <cradek> the L298 (which is more than just an H bridge) takes plain logic levels in.
[22:02:23] <paragon36> OK that makes perfect sense I just didnt figure hal could abstract to that degree .. it seemed to good to be true. I'm liking EMC2 more and more.
[22:02:41] <jepler> awallin: the UP0 and DN0 outputs are suitable to hook to the "In1" and "In2" pins of the L298 H-bridge
[22:03:18] <cradek> (which also seems a bit too good to be true)
[22:03:51] <jepler> paragon36: I don't doubt that the docs could be better
[22:04:05] <cradek> I'd sure like an L298++ (higher voltage/current)
[22:04:14] <paragon36> Well thats somthing I maybe able to help with :-)
[22:04:25] <cradek> wow, we love to hear that
[22:04:42] <cradek> I'm off, bbl
[22:04:44] <jepler> cradek: if you don't mind the parts count, skunkworks's h-bridge is that
[22:05:01] <jepler> paragon36:
[22:05:23] <jepler> paragon36: that is one way you can contribute to emc2: by the design of hardware that your fellow users will want
[22:06:24] <paragon36> Looking at the lathe-pluto.hal where are those pins specified I cant seem to see them! I presume setp directive set the pins from what I can remember from the HAL doc Im still reading.
[22:07:09] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: ooh, it's logic level input?
[22:09:28] <awallin> i'm going to sleep. bye.
[22:10:01] <lerneaen_hydra> bye
[22:10:06] <paragon36> cu
[22:10:59] <paragon36> Jepler where are those directives that you mention documented / located?
[22:25:03] <tomp> how could i check which version of numpy is installed?
[22:25:19] <tomp> nite awallin, thanks
[22:29:08] <tomp> oops: gotit import numpy print numpy.__version__
[22:29:12] <anonimasu> :)
[22:52:08] <lerman_____> lerman_____ is now known as lerman
[22:57:33] <alex_joni> oh my http://www.pandachute.com/videos/wife_beating_rules
[22:57:38] <alex_joni> :/
[22:58:31] <lerneaen_hydra> should not break any bones :/
[23:03:11] <anonimasu> hm
[23:03:27] <jepler> paragon36: which directives?
[23:04:02] <jepler> paragon36: 'setp' sets the value of a parameter or pin -- if the default is OK, you don't need to 'setp' it.
[23:05:25] <jepler> paragon36: there's also a manpage for 'halcmd' which gives all the commands that can be used in .hal files
[23:06:51] <paragon36> So do you set the enable pin of the l298 with the pluto-p?
[23:08:14] <jepler> I would: select one of the digital outputs of the pluto-p board (say, OUT0) and physically wire it to the enable input of the l298.
[23:09:04] <jepler> then in the hal file I would link it to the axis.0.enable signal: newsig Xen bit / linksp Xen <= axis.0.enable / linksp Xen => pluto-servo.dout-00 (split over 3 lines)
[23:09:15] <jepler> there is a new one-line way to do that: net Xen axis.0.enable => pluto-servo.dout-00
[23:10:10] <jepler> now if you are in MACHINE ON in emc2, the servo amp will be enabled and the motors will be able to turn or hold position. If you are in another state such as ESTOP the servo amp will be disabled and you can turn the motors freely
[23:10:35] <lerman_____> lerman_____ is now known as lerman
[23:10:36] <jepler> ("Xen" stands for "X axis ENable", but you can choose the names you like for signals in HAL)
[23:10:51] <paragon36> OK ... I guess were I was getting confused is that I could not see anything that corresponds to that in the lathe-pluto.hal file
[23:11:23] <paragon36> Where are these command directives documented in the HAL manual?
[23:11:53] <paragon36> newsig Xenable bit
[23:11:55] <paragon36> newsig Zenable bit
[23:11:56] <paragon36> linkps axis.0.amp-enable-out => Xenable
[23:11:58] <paragon36> linkps axis.2.amp-enable-out => Zenable
[23:12:00] <paragon36> linksp Xenable => pid.0.enable
[23:12:01] <paragon36> linksp Xenable => pluto-servo.pwm-0-enable
[23:12:04] <paragon36> linksp Zenable => pid.1.enable
[23:12:05] <paragon36> linksp Zenable => pluto-servo.pwm-1-enable
[23:12:31] <jepler> the commands such as "newsig" and "linksp" are documented in the manpage for halcmd: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man1/halcmd.1.html
[23:13:00] <jepler> the pins that are emc2's interface to hal are documented here: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config/emc2hal/index.html
[23:13:52] <jepler> because cradek originally designed his lathe board for the parallel port, it may be that he didn't have enough pins to have an amplifier enable output.
[23:14:17] <jepler> if you don't have an amplifier enable output, then the motors will hold position when you are not in the MACHINE ON state.
[23:14:48] <paragon36> The above was taken from lathe-pluto.hal
[23:15:05] <jepler> (on the l298, both ends of the motor winding will be connected to GND, effectively shorting the motor)
[23:15:29] <paragon36> for breaking ?
[23:15:45] <jepler> yes that's the word
[23:18:37] <paragon36> what does this mean > linkps axis.0.amp-enable-out => Xenable (set enable high)
[23:18:54] <lerman_____> lerman_____ is now known as lerman
[23:19:54] <jepler> axis.0.amp-enable-out is the correct name for what I kept calling axis.0.enable earlier
[23:21:26] <paragon36> OK and this one Jepler ? linksp Xenable => pluto-servo.pwm-0-enable
[23:22:03] <jepler> those lines are connecting the HAL pins pluto-servo.pwm-0-enable and axis.0.amp-enable-out together, using a signal called Xenable
[23:22:46] <jepler> so now when emc2 decides that the servo amp should be turned off (ESTOP, ESTOP RESET, MACHINE OFF), the message is received by the pluto-servo driver and then sent to the pluto board.
[23:23:47] <jepler> in this case, the pluto board will stop the PWM signal on the physical UP0 and DN0 pins, putting the l298 into "fast motor stop"
[23:24:00] <paragon36> Got it... and this was what you where saying earlier! but at which point is the physical enable pin specified on the output of the pluto-p
[23:24:11] <paragon36> Opps I think you just answered it
[23:24:28] <lerman_____> lerman_____ is now known as lerman
[23:24:59] <paragon36> So the enable pin on the L298 is alway HIGH (enabled) and the pwn determines motion plus direction right?
[23:25:27] <jepler> I think that is the case with cradek's pluto_lathe setup
[23:25:28] <paragon36> using up0 dn0 pins >>> input1 and input2 on l298
[23:26:04] <jepler> but you can also connect that "Xenable" signal to pluto-servo.dout-00 with "linksp", and then wire OUT0 to l298's enable
[23:27:04] <paragon36> That makes sense now.... I could not work out where the l298 / pluto-p enable pin came into play from the lathe-pluto.hal but its making more sense now!
[23:28:40] <paragon36> so xenable = signal | pluto-servo.dout-00 = pin | linksp = link signal to pin | linkps = link pin to signal ...
[23:29:01] <jepler> yes! exactly!
[23:29:01] <alex_joni> paragon36: indeed
[23:29:09] <jepler> "newsig" = "new signal"
[23:29:27] <alex_joni> paragon36: I always concluded that it helps reading the HAL manual, but more so to play along with the examples described there
[23:29:58] <alex_joni> paragon36: once you get a feeling of pins, signals, utilities.. you can do close to anything with HAL
[23:30:01] <alex_joni> :)
[23:30:26] <jepler> before I wrote the etch-servo configurations I was daunted by HAL
[23:30:33] <jepler> now apparently I'm one of the lead developers of emc2
[23:30:34] <paragon36> New signal can it be anyname ie its like a varible and acts like a wire linking pins ... that much I have read in the HAL doc but its kind of sinking in now! :-)
[23:31:42] <paragon36> It's very clean indeed.... was the emc1 hal similiar in the way things where done?
[23:31:54] <jepler> no, there was no hal in emc1
[23:32:15] <jepler> if you wanted to so much as change which parport pin was "step", you had to recompile it from source
[23:32:22] <alex_joni> paragon36: in emc1 you had fixed pin assignments
[23:32:31] <alex_joni> jepler: daunted?
[23:32:50] <jepler> alex_joni: yes -- scared of
[23:32:56] <paragon36> Oh OK... so this is a huge improvement which allows people to really customize!
[23:33:09] <alex_joni> jepler: I know what it means, just seems unbelieveable :)
[23:33:28] <alex_joni> paragon36: basicly you can mix & match close to any scenario you can think about
[23:34:12] <alex_joni> I think HAL is easier to understand when you look at it from the EE point of view
[23:34:16] <alex_joni> not programming point of view
[23:34:36] <paragon36> Very powerfull indeed! .... Thanks for your time and patience Chaps!
[23:37:19] <paragon36> I half way through the HAL doc but this brief discussion has certainly shed some light on HAL for me. I think I was looking to deeply into the inner working rather then from an abstract point of view. I guess that comes from starting my coding day with assembly I found C hard to catch due to its absraction ... if that makes sense.
[23:38:09] <paragon36> Anyway goodnight All and thanks again!
[23:38:12] <alex_joni> good night
[23:38:13] <robin_sz> night
[23:38:18] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads to be too
[23:38:22] <alex_joni> robin_sz: any luck on the bot?
[23:38:32] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads to bed too
[23:38:39] <robin_sz> alex_joni, not yet .. but expecting some disks in the post tomorow
[23:38:51] <alex_joni> best of luck :)
[23:38:54] <alex_joni> night all
[23:38:57] <robin_sz> and I have two other guys who can help too
[23:39:00] <robin_sz> night
[23:39:27] <jepler> goodnght paragon36
[23:39:31] <jepler> darn I missed him
[23:39:45] <robin_sz> really? so soon?
[23:39:51] <robin_sz> it must be love!
[23:50:46] <lerman_____> lerman_____ is now known as lerman
[23:54:49] <lerneaen_hydra> 'night all
[23:55:01] <jepler> see you lerneaen_hydra