ah, maybe this is a good place to point all those who ask about how to burn the CD: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto
Since things are so quiet, perhaps ypu would like to educate a hobbiest on what NML is. I see the mneumonic ( or TLA - three letter acronymn) quite frequently.
In what context have you seen NML ?
Neutral Machining Language I think ... its basically a messaging layer within EMC ... different bits of the system use NML message to talk to each other
in theory it can pass data between different systems, with different endianness etc
hehe... love it when people make up words. :) it makes them sound extra smart. :)
sorry, I meant endianness
as in big-endian and little-enidian
as in big-endian and little-endian
see, I just can't spol
endianness is made up. :)
well, it may be, but its used a lot
hes always up ;)
[01:32:21] <robin_sz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
it may be made up, but not by me
Is there any documentation on how to use/program with NML? The only thing I found on the net was a NML program which make HTML code.
mmm ... there was a lot of stuff on it ... you can control emc directly by using nml messages, for example if you have some sort of allergy to gcode
its not something you'd normally want to do ...
not for machining anyway
Goslowjimbo: In the context of emc, NML is the 'neutral messaging language' or something like that. It is generally a little like RPC, but different in the specifics.
Goslowjimbo: it is the method used to communicate between some of the userspace parts of emc2
iirc, isnt most of the nml stuff, like libnml put together by the Java packages that live in emc ...
I think the directory has a notice marked "here be dragons" on it
I think the java source code generator hasn't been used in a long time
probably due to the dragons ...
you're right, it's a "here be dragons" part of the system to most people
there probably a couple of people in NIST who know the ins and outs of that part .. and thats your lot
I think for me it should stand for kNow My Limits?
hmm... dragons and knights in European mythology... dragons and samurais in Asian mythology... I rather have Samurais.
I suspect the source has now chnaged so much by hand the the generator is redundant
Ninja's are just cooler.
A-L-P-H-A, mythology? who said they were myths/
my pet dragon said so.
Goslowjimbo, if you had a special application, like, say a 6 axos robot arm, or machine for CNC plucking chickens that you didnt want to use a GCODE front end for, NML lets you get at the task and trajectory bits of EMC without the other bits getting in the way, in theory you can write other controllers than the gcode intperter, like say a robot controller, and NML will be the comms layer .. as I understand it anyway
you wouldnt use it to create a program for machining a part, its lower level than that
I hate bath night ...
worst night of the year.
aren't they old enough to take their own showers yet?
From what I was concluding, NML wound up being the glue between HAL and the GUI? Are you guys a little punchy?
Maybe you know it as punch drunk. I just didn't want to get into the drinking aspect.
we're normally like this... sober.
well... I am.
robin_sz just pretends to be road runner, for some odd reason.
there you go.
with respect, road runner goes "meep meep" ...
jepler & robin_sz: How did you print out in red?
thats a bird noise
Goslowjimbo, we didn;t you did
"meep" is more of a hamster or rodent noise
I did what?
hamsters hardly ever make a noise.
Goslowjimbo, you are the one that printed in red, not us ;)
i had one when I was a kid, I don't rmember it making any noise, other than on the wheel, or chewing on the bars.
4Is this red?
11Is this cyan?
we're just lucky.
this maybe red to Goslowjimbo as well.
Yes, it is
but .. the red Goslowjimbo was simply because the line contained his nick and his client highlighted it for him
you get a cookie for that stroke of brilliance.
Ok, what did you do to get cyan print on my computer?
04some clients will recognise mis-spelings too like Gosloooowjimbo
7magic brown pooh color
it's a color code.
in mirc, it's control-k
theres a perl plugin to make each letter a different color somewhere too
robin_sz, yeah, those rainbow scripts make reading really annoying.
colors are normally only used on noobie channels anyway
3we be noobs
0you probably can't read this now.
Have a nice day
with that, I think its bathtime for real
0if you can read this... we all think r ob in _ sz needs a bath... silly brit. bathing once a year
no putting it off now. but, once its done I can relax and forget about it for another year
robin_sz... get a jacuzzi, and go bathe with the wife.
nah ... no tthe wife
but .. she did mention we might get a secretary for work
I think something blonde ...
and C cup
nah... too much hassle.
get an Asian, with C cups.
they make asians with C cups?
I thought they topped out at AA
first girl I ever slept with was... natural C cups... loads of fun.
one of my employees visits bangkok a lot, I'll ask him
robin_sz... no. they don't occur in their native settings.
only when they drink lots of milk when growing up
right .. bath calls!
there's a plenty of North American Asians that drank milk growing up
mmm.. rBGH weirdness
bovine groth hormone?
dunno... it was my sister's observation.
I think it's kinda true.
been looking at girls that like to drink milk more. :)
probably will be an giant increase in breast cancer too. :(
milk isn't the sole determinant
SWPadnos... well... it seems like the common one.
the majority of big eyed girls, drink milk. :)
I have 3 sisters who all drank around the same amount of milk as kids, and they have wildly different breast sizes
nono... within the last 20 years.
met many 20 somethings that drink lots of milk, while they ever kids too?
the ones that do have big boobs, generally tend to drink milk.
not saying all milk drinkers get boobs...
not saying all big boobers drink milk.
but a high corrolation that big breasted girls, have and do drink milk.
could be. I haven't done any of that research ...
it was emperical evidence.
wouldn't you like to be the researcher for that one though?
I'll measure... you can write down the #s.
I'll check for consistency
how would we do it as a double blind experiment, and make sure the project isn't flawed? Should we get multiple groups to perform the experiment in tandum?
hmmm - I think I'll leave the experimental design up to you
03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (breezy) realtime (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
thats a good sign
has that not been working for a while?
since 12/31 (at least)
its been updating the webpage, but not emailing the list or CIA
did all of you use multivariable calc to arrive at that milk conlcusion ...
wish they would give the results so far
fenn. heh. glad you googled for stuff, and not me.
there's surprisingly little information, at least it was hard to find anything
go with emperical evidence.
give your girl children milk to drink for the future boys of the world.
here I was thinking that there may be, for once, a non-flamey discussion with paul_c. looks like I was wrong
lerneaen_hydra: let me guess, he kept yelling "EMC2 SUCKS!" like some spoiled kid..
yeah pretty much
did you slap him=
...<some stuff about compiling qt3 stuff>... How you integrate the above snippet in to the emc2 build system is up to you and is something I can not help with - The current make structure is fragile, ugly, and based on a false premise.
no, I'll leave that to the real devs
like bdi isnt fragile.
or the emc1 build system :)
the funny thing is that the previous posts were actually fine
I've noticed the "real" devs (not agreeing you aren't one) don't waste time on that either...
I dont get what's up with paul.
cradek: I'm not sure I'd call myself a dev, more like a knowledgable end user
that's good at suggesting stuff and whining about it ;)
and doing it
free software has a nice continuum between user and developer
oh, yeah, that's a very nice thing :)
at least in smaller OSS projects
well crap, I confused you with the other ler* guy again
my client cuts off everything after 9 characters, so you're both ler??a?n
IIRC he changed his name to his real name
something with f in the beginning
I think he changed to klerman, which will be fine once I get used to it
yeah, thats right
f and k, they're so similar
yeah, close enough
* jepler is afraid to look at the list
jepler: it could have been worse
so, what's happening?
lerneaen_hydra: umm -- nothing?
lerneaen_hydra: like everyone else I'll spend the morning trying to resist a big "f-u" on the mailing list, apparently
I wish we could just ban him from our lists like he banned me from the bdi4emc list
(not really -- I don't really want to go down the road of banning people who have a contrary viewpoint or who don't say that emc2 is perfect)
at times like this I find it nice to be able to think, ah, fsck that. and just forget about it
like going to istheshit for instance, and finding stuff like this: http://moods.istheshit.net/
[13:32:25] <lerneaen_hydra> http://hologram.istheshit.net/
[13:34:47] <lerneaen_hydra> http://thedogknowsforsure.istheshit.net/
that's enough of me spamming for now though
making my electric bike thing
not much left now, the final bits
I also have to make some type of outer casing
I was thinking 2mm aluminum :p
that works too
SWPadnos: thanks :)
lerneaen_hydra is now known as hydra_away
we got an inch last week... but it is gone by now
got root ?
we just got about 50 cm
That would be nice.
* skunkworks does a quick convert to inches
no snow yet here.. cherry trees blossoming in DC already
its an inconvenient truth ;)
skunkworks: 1.5 feet I think
that is what I got
it was in the 40's yesterday.
's exceednigly warm here too
around +5 to +10 degrees
when it should be -5 to -10
hi all, what's up?
did you read the irc logs? about a feed aggregator for linuxcnc.org
one idea to get more updates for www.linuxcnc.org would be to have a script that lists new stuff that is happening on the developers logs
didn't see that
blogs i mean
a joomla plugin probably exists for that
I suppose we could just post stuff there too
yes, but an automatic script would make it easier. people tend to keep their own sites in good shape, and not worry about a 'community' site...
a meter widget for tcl\tk... how might this be converted to tkinter for use with pyvcp/hal? http://pastebin.ca/304872
in some of the very old irc logs, someone summarized what happened for each day - that was nice
tomp: do you have a screenshot ?
cradek: I did that for a while
I bet not
fun for a while.. then it gets annoying fast
etla: how to do screen/window capture in ubuntu? (tried prtscrn)
in system/keyboard shortcuts, you can bind a key combination to "Take a screenshot of a window" - that's what I like to do
etla: found others too
tomp: looks OK, the tcl code can probably be translated pretty easily to python, could you put a link to the code and the screenshot on the pyvcp wiki page?
but links only good for 1 day... so what to do? where to put?
the wiki should support uploads
anyone really good at math?
can log(x^a -1 ) be simplified to something prettier? x is my variable, and a is a constant
an extra parenthesis might help log( (x^a) - 1 )
log(x^a) is so easy. but that 1 messes up everything
that voltmeter scares me
[16:35:05] <jepler> http://linux.inet.hr/finally-user-friendly-virtualization-for-linux.html
jepler: I tried kqemu twice (different OSs) and got no benefit or a slight slowdown
did you ever try it?
cradek: yes but I was never sure if it was even being used
cradek: this person obviously saw some benefit from it in his benchmarks
now I just (sadly) use vmware mostly
called in "sick" to work today
putting together my parport relay card is so much more satisfying
I never do that
I rarely do either, but now I have a few weeks of sick time just sitting there
emc can use multiple parports, correct?
emc2 can, sure
etla: wiki updated
good, this card only uses 8 of the outputs but wastes an entire port
cradek: why does voltmeter scare you?
needs some more divisions ;)
it's in the code
the analog voltmeter is hostage to physical and electrical constraints that dictate its form. on the computer there's no need to emulate a needle that sweeps through an angle proportional to the applied voltage. instead, we should be using the "Cracked open dinosaur eggs" graphical user interface paradigm.
(I think the bargraph is better in all ways)
does that mean there are dinosaurs roaming around somewhere on the desktop too?
interesting widgets to add: a meter with a log scale; a meter which maintains peaks for a configurable time; a "strip chart" that shows some history; a meter or readout that changes color depending on the value (e.g., to indicate an out of bounds temperature or spindle load)
strip chart would be useful...
I finally got rid of that ratshack POS soldering iron and got a weller ... should have done that a _long_ time ago
ejholmgren: the weller tips are much better aren't they
strip chart would be cool - say for tool velocity or spindle power.
hydra_away: like an EKG - shows a little history by scrolling
just like xload actually
does the background move or does the point sweep slowly across?
in fact starting with the xload code (auto scaling included) might be very smart
hydra_away: I suppose it could be either
it seems it would be easier to do it like an osciliscope with a large time scale, so the dot moves and the background is static
less cpu used at least
probably easier to code
xload gets around the "scroll all the time" problem by scrolling in chunks
do add these ideas to the wiki please!
the bargraph could easily be improved to have safe/warning/critical colors with configurable thresholds...
bargraphs not intuitive for me, and limits & bands & setpoints are a natural for the meter widget, maybe people dont use meters anymore ( the digital watch syndrome )
hitchikers guide :)
tomp: are you running a 3000x2000 resolution screen? the screenshot of the beter looks BIG
etla: i wish it autosized when the window was changed, but this tcltk stuff doesnt(easily), while gtk & qt do... another can of worms.
I am not saying there shouldn't be an analog meter lookalike in pyvcp, but my personal preference is for my software to look like other desktop applications, rather than like physical controls -- personally, I wouldn't use an analog meter.
I mean, I wouldn't use an onscreen widget that looks like an analog meter
ok, different strokes
jepler: does AXIS use the bwidget notebook ? MDI/jog pages
etla: yes that is the bwidget notebook
that would be cool for pyvcp I think
I think it does it directly in tcl, not with bwidget.NoteBook
do SSR's have a lifespan more equivalent to a transistor than a mechanical relay?
anyone have an idea where I can rent a pallet lifter?
pallet jack or acutal lift?
jack i guess ;)
to roll my 350kg pallet away
crowbars and steel rods (plus friends) :)
SWPadnos, yes in france, but what type of busuness to search in?
something like industrial renting stuff
do you have the equivalent of "rent-all" - a place where you can rent things like - well, almost anything?
ejholmgren: that's my impression -- looking at datasheets on opto22.com I don't see any information about a lifetime switching count for their SSRs
I think SSRs last until you (a) overcurrent or (b) overvolt them, for the most part
france is a 3d world country
but ill have a look ;)
just burn it in your yard then?
I want to keep the machine
"Mechanical relays have a finite cycle life, as their components tend to wear out over thousands to millions of cycles. SSRs do not have this problem; in the proper application, they could be operated almost infinitely." -- http://www.opto22.com/documents/0859_Solid_State_Relays_data_sheet.pdf
otherwise probably a common solution for uncivilized people :)
hrmmnn ~775 lbs is pretty heavy
it's the weight of a bandsaw
specifically, the one in my garage :)
too bad it's not round? roll roll roll ;)
its a 100 amp plasma cutter from a ship yard industry
one day, I may make the wheeled cart I've planned for it
have a friend that works in a warehouse and a truck?
that would been great, but no
I've hired a tow truck for moving machinery - it works pretty well (but only the boom type, not a flatbed :) )
maybe it is more easy to look to rent a wheeled motor krane
(in this country)
an engine lift?
that would be great for the size item you're talking about
That is how father got his shaper home - tow truck... that was a long time ago.
if you have a smooth surface under the pallet (concrete, painted concrete) you can just wet it a bit with water and slide the whole thing along, works really well up to about 600kg :D
wow, I should try that
I dont think the hole pathway is painted hmmmm
eugenics: it's fine if it's just bare concrete btw
Dallur, did you have chance to try your z axis?
water pipe and a come-along. (and holes in the concrete for pull points)
that is how we moved the big stuff before the forklift
gott nytt etla
gott nytt år ^eugenics
hydra_away is now known as lerneaen_hydra
kul att det finns lite svenskar har tycker jag
det är skoj ja
det känns nästan som att antalet svenskar är näst störst här efter amerikaner
Helan går, sjung hopp fa-de-ral-lan-lal-lan lej!
* robin_sz joins in the fun
* lerneaen_hydra whispers with great fever among the other swedes and looks funnily at robin_sz
aww cmon, you know as well as I do, that all swedish is based on drinking songs
at my school you may have a point
(btw, is uni referred to as school?)
I think thats the only bit of Swedish I know, we learnt it on a sailing trip in Aaland
no, uni is called uni
school is up to 16
after that its college
"after I left school, I went to university" ...
oh, that's something that's been bothering me, in the US, what is the type of school called that takes place between the age of 15-18 or thereabouts?
no idea ...
and what's the type of school called that's 18-25-ish?
mmm, thats "college" I think
because I was thinking that it was highschool and uni/collede
14-18 = high school
19-22 = college or university
and what's the real difference between college and university?
depends on your birthday though :)
a university generally consists of many colleges - a college is a more specialized school
a university is a collection of colleges
oh, I see
we do school to 16 ..
thats what we call "secodnary school" ... it has 5 yrs of that from 11 to 16
university of texas:college of architecture
oh, I see
after that you can either leave and get a job at 16, or stay on to "6th form"
there's some 'k' terms for lower schools now in the US... k1 thru k12 (form?)
are "forms" years, or do they encompass a certain set of learning?
in the US, it starts at "step-up" or some such, around 2-3 years old (I'm not kidding)
you either do the 2 years of 6th form at your school or at a special 6th form college, then you go to university ... you only do 6th fomr if you intend to do uni really
then pre-schol (age 3-4, usually)
kindergarten at age 5
forms a re years
SWPadnos: yeah, that I remember from when I was in the US
first grade starts at age 6-ish, and is part of elementary school (1-3 usually)
1st form is the first year of secodnary
grades 4-8 are considered "middle school"
I moved to borkland after 6th grade or so, so that's why my image of the school system is messed up
9-12 are high school
then there's college (even if it's a university :) )
is there a rule of thumb for how many courses a college has before it's a uni?
(separated in to "undergraduate studies" and "graduate studies" ...)
this is very weird - it's 46 degrees here
maybe this year joe-schmo will start beleiving that global warming is real
nah. as long as there's snow on Kilamanjaro they won't believe
lerneaen_hydra, in the uk the difference between college and uni was based on academic standards ...
scripts/realtime: line 168: rtapi_app: command not found
is that normal? I'm not running an RT kernel btw
we used to have polytechnics, teaching practical things like electronics .. and universites doing degrees in electronics .. the uni courses had more theeory and were harder
"polytechnic" would be a "tech school" or "vocational school" here
used to be here , but .. about 6 or 8 years ago, the govenrment decided to increase the number of university places here from 10% of school leavers to 50%
they did this by:
renaming polytechnics as universities
letting anyone in
that was efficient
well, you still needed the same school exam grades
but, suddenly everyone was getting better grades .. just like that
of course, the official line is teaching got better, not exams easier ...
they're employing capitalist tactics to an area where they're not appropriate
(cut corners until you get the profits up)
of course the "real" universites kept their high exam standards, but that made it hard for poor grade students to pass the exams, so they had a lot of failures .. lots of fialures makes it difficult to get new students, who wants to go on a course where you fail?
no students = no income
= course closure or compromise your standards .. do ANYTHIG to get the students through!
I don't have time for you to get me started on education :)
awallin: I don't get that error when running RIP, but I always use emc-environment which might hide the problem (rtapi_app not on $PATH)
jepler: I did run . ./emc-environment (I seem to have to run that every time I boot, can the changes be made permanent?)
awallin: I put it in my ~/.bash_profile which is run from the login shell.
../emc2.head.dev/scripts/halrun -I pyvcp-dro.hal
Realtime already running
I thought scripts/realtime stop would fix that?
03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/scripts/realtime.in: put the emc bindir on the PATH when using run-in-place; fixes error 'rtapi_app: command not found'
awallin: is rtapi_app still running? That's what halrun is checking
yay, now realtime stop runs without errors
I bet in that case, pidof thinks rtapi_app is still running
let's try the halrun once more
nope, "Realtime already running"
in unix, a process is "defunct" (or "zombie") from the time it exits to the time its parent process fetches the exit status
you might have a suspended (^Z'd) halcmd left as well?
"ps wauxf" and look for the process that is "above" rtapi_app in the listing
yes, I have a halcmd -f somefile.hal there also. I killed the terminal since it went on printing dot's ......... when it couldn't find pyvcp_dro.xml (jmk's typo)
kill the halcmd
ok, now jmk's dro example runs
wow that was sure a hassle
found one more typo....
hmm. when running pyvcp via halrun, when I write 'exit' at the halcmd prompt pyvcp crashes with a 'KeyboardInterrupt'. any way to gracefully shut down on keyboardinterrupt?
try: mainloop() except KeyboardInterrupt: sys.exit(0)
something like that ^^ split across multiple lines instead of all on one
NameError: global name 'KeybaordInterrupt' is not defined
right. it's misspelled ;)
yep, now it works
03awallin 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/user_comps/pyvcp.py:
exit gracefully on KeyboardInterrupt
this happens when pyvcp is called from a halrun script
and the user types 'exit' at the halcmd prompt
03awallin 07HEAD * 10emc2/lib/python/vcpparse.py:
exit gracefully when user tries to run two instances of pyVCP
"Error: Only one running pyVCP allowed."
how difficult is it to allow multiple pyvcp instances?
you could add a commandline option to give the component name (and thus the pin prefix) to use
ok - is pin naming the main impediment?
how do we keep track of how many times create_vcp has been called?
now we get to the fun part in naming hal pins, I just love the pyvcp.0.something syntax ;)
well, I'm thinking about things like having some function pop up pyvcp panel, which would be a problem if there's already one :)
I'm not thinking about the programming aspects yet ;)
here's what I have in mind: if you did "pyvcp -c p1 p1.xml" then it would create the compnent p1, and pins like p1.pin-1 etc
swp: yes, it could be useful
or maybe the basename of the xml file should be used instead -- so "pyvcp dro.xml" creates pins like dro.pin-1 etc
"this is left as an exercise for the reader" :)
that sounds like a great idea
(of course it can be broken, but it's still excellent)
I guess I"d still want to provide for a command line option, so you could have multiple instances of the same XML file with different names
I haven't figured out where that may be needed though
jepler: so you just check that argv=='-c' , name the component argv, and the file argv
I'm sure there's a python version of getopt ...
awallin: Python provides the 'getopt' module for parsing commandline arguments
and it's waaaaay better than if argv="-c" ...
opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], "c:")
then for o, a in opts: check if o == "-c": component_name = a
args will be the .xml file
if there's a bad argument, getopt() will raise getopt.GetoptError
I'll try that
it means you probably need to change the way AXIS calls vcpparse too, since pyvcp.py will need to pass the component name as a parameter to vcpparse
ok that's fine
if you want to fix that in axis, be my guest
you can have 3 kinds of naming: default to pyvcp, command-line switch to use XML base name (-x maybe), or specified name (-n "myName")
otherwise I will
awallin: can the user tweak the vcp screen update rate?
cradek: no (not yet?)
it's set to 100ms I think
for all widgets (do we need a different update time for different widgets?)
this sure has generated a lot of interest - thanks for doing this work
:) beginners luck I guess
python and hal are very powerful -- you can do a lot after you've understood their basics
I also hope that robin_sz will soon do a write-up of his work with python and a hardware PLC that he's mentioned here before
hrm... except getopt.GetoptError: doesn't seem to catch invalid arguments...
I have try: opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], "c:") as suggested
>>> getopt.getopt(["-x", "example"], "c:")
getopt.GetoptError: option -x not recognized
>>> getopt.getopt(["-c"], "c:")
getopt.GetoptError: option -c requires argument
>>> getopt.getopt(["-c", "p", "x.xml"], "c:")
([('-c', 'p')], ['x.xml'])
it works like I expect it
maybe you can spot the mistake:
opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], "c:")
print "usage: pyvcp -c hal_component_name myfile.xml"
yes it should print that message to stderr, and exit with an error code >0
the output from print opts print args is  and ['pyvcp-dro.xml'] but I still don't get the exception
I don't understand - are you trying to make -c required?
it worked for me; the code with slight modifications here: http://pastebin.ca/305355
oh -- yes, getopt considers all options as, er, optional
component_name = None
for optname, optarg in opts:
if optname == '-c': component_name = optarg
if component_name is None:
print "-c required"
^^^ you could do something like this (untested) if you want it to be required
if component_name is None:
UnboundLocalError: local variable 'component_name' referenced before assignment
ok, so now it works with the correct command line args: pyvcp -c t pyvcp-dro.xml
but it still crashes when the wrong arguments are given
oh, now it works!
how do I name the tk root window ?
03awallin 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/user_comps/pyvcp.py:
new syntax for calling pyvcp:
pycvp -c compname myfile.xml
created pins will be named:
compname.led compname.number etc.
this will allow multiple pyvcp panels to run simultaneously
03awallin 07HEAD * 10emc2/lib/python/vcpparse.py: support the new -c syntax
looks like it didn't even brake the way AXIS calls vcpparse
03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/halmodule.cc: improve the docstring, including a short working example
hmm, what about if the component name was specified in the XML file ? any comments on that?
jmk: cvs version of vcp_widgets doesnt have the hscale widget. should i stop? no problem ( less problem ! )
awallin: doesn't really work when running from axis, since the component name (axisui) was already set before any of pyvcp is called
jepler: ok, I guess setting the compname on the command line is ok. You can now rename the pyvcp widgets in AXIS to something else with an argument to vcpparse.create_widgets if you want (axis_pyvcp or something)
ok, not sure I'll change anything right now but maybe in the future I'll let the user choose the prefix for himself
jmk: the vscale is there ok
Hope you had a nice crimbo ... :-)
I don't know what that is
Could someone please explain the INPUT_SCALE varible I have read the docs and still a little confused!
Crimbo is a slang term for Christmas
that scale is how many steps (steppers) or encoder counts (servos) make up a length unit (inch or mm) on your system
skunkworks: aha, thanks
OK so if I have a servo with a 2000 cpr and I am working in mm I would set it to 2000 0 which would give me 1mm per rev of servo right?
that depends on your leadscrew pitch
it's how many counts make up a mm of TRAVEL on the axis
* skunkworks had to look crimbo up on the wikipedia
if your leadscrew moves the axis 1mm per revolution, your scale would in fact be 2000
OK so if I want a 5 - 1 gearing ... ie 5 motor revs to 1 turn lead screw (1mm) i would set it to 10000 0 !
yes if the axis moves 1mm for every 10000 counts, that's the scale
The set up I have current for testing servo is that the motor is not connected to anything but I have set a marking point to test acuracy
ok, so you don't really have mm anywhere, you can pretend however you like
paragon36: what is your setup? what are you using for drives/interface and such?
you could "imagine" a 1mm per revolution leadscrew, so when you jog 1mm on the screen the motor will turn 1 rev
Thats the idea or say a 5 - 1 ratio ... the problem is that if I home to X0 then command to X100 I would expect the motor to stop at the same point it started but it out by say quater of a turn or so
is it "stiff" when you turn it to the expected location? maybe it's just terrible tuning
Then if I go back to X0 this finds its starting point but sometimes its off
or maybe your encoder or some other hardware isn't working right
you could use halmeter to check the operation of the encoder (disable the motor driver and turn it by hand)
It has a slight movement but then it starts to fight
ok if it's fighting that's good, but your counting is wrong.
are you sure about your encoder resolution? it's very easy to be off by a factor of 4
ok, if you can not reliably go back to 0, it is NOT a scale problem - do you see why I say this?
well the motor has 500cpr which should produce 2000 counts leading / lagging edges
what hardware are you using to count?
Etch.ini .... parrallel port
Its connected directly
you may be losing counts because they are happening too fast then. the parallel port counting is somewhat limited.
you have to do the math to see what your safe top speed is
the parallel port is read every BASE_PERIOD. You must never have more than one edge per BASE_PERIOD or counts will be lost
Ive noticed that I cannot run the motor at its rated rpm as it runs away with itself before throwing a following error
yes that's a sure sign of losing counts.
it thinks it's falling "behind" so PID commands it to go faster
which makes the problem worse, of course
Yes I agree.... what cheap hardware solution is available ....
define cheap :-)
Chips ... lol
ppmc, mesa, motenc all read quadrature at high speed
none are very cheap
if you like to experiment with new stuff, you could try a pluto for about $60
it's a new FPGA parport device supported by EMC2
paragon36: you're not by any chance the same as parag0n on #gp2x on Efnet?
very new and experimental
[21:13:10] <cradek> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/docs/src/hal/pluto_servo.html?rev=HEAD;content-type=text%2Fhtml
^^^^ pluto docs
No lerneaen ... never heard of gp2x !!
ok, that would have been very spooky
(the gp2x is a linux media handheld of sorts)
Thanks cradek .... taking a look at pluto now!
Sound interesting lerneaen ...
[21:15:35] <lerneaen_hydra> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gp2x
paragon36: are you using some kind of PWM and H bridge to run the motor?
Im using the standard etch_servo connected directly to an H-Bridge
paragon36: with your current setup, try setting your feed override or jog speed slider very low and see if you can maintain position (come back to zero)
paragon36: what is your base period set to?
putting the pluto between those will make you very happy then
h-bridge = L298
paragon36: cool, that's exactly how my lathe works
BASE_PERIOD = 20000
another option is a microcontroller which functions as a quadrature divider. http://emergent.unpy.net/projects/01149271333
Computer = AMD 64
Could the base period be set lower ?
paragon36: something to read..
[21:19:14] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25929
Thanks jepler ....
Is there a way to record an IRC session so I can save all this great info?
(10000 per mm) * (10 mm per second) = 100000 per second
paragon36: there are irc logs on linuxcnc.org
paragon36: that depends on your irc client. You might be able to just select all the text and paste it into your favorite text editor
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-01-04.txt
cradek: good point!
(that url is the log of the current conversation)
Nice ... :-)
paragon36: theoretically you should be able to run the motor at 1500rpm counting at 50khz But they say you should half that. 2000 input scale.
(10000 per mm) * (10 mm per second) = 100000 per second ... what does this give ... sorry for being dumb Chaps
that gives the number of quadrature edges per second
* ment 2000 edges on your encoder
oh I thought I saw something about 5:1 pulleys
Got it ... Yes you did Jepler ... it's me .... lol
5 - 1 == 10000
10000/second = 10 microsecond, so for that many counts per second you need a BASE_PERIOD no bigger than 10000 (and probably smaller, if the quadrature waveform is not perfectly clean and 90 degrees phase difference)
so what's the safe jog speed (in "mm"/minute) with his current setup?
You just answered my next question Jepler ... Thank you!
on etch-a-sketch, I think I had more like 7000 edges per second, which can have a much bigger BASE_PERIOD without trouble
INPUT_SCALE=1700, MAX_VELOCITY=4 (inches per second)
1700 does not match the encoder count though does it ??
in the etch-a-sketch there's not an exact relationship between rotations and inches or mm
there's some odd-sized pulley inside the body of the etch-a-sketch, which sets the distance per rev
and it probably changes over the "work surface"
it is not precision equipment
oh hm - maybe it isn't winding string onto a pulley ...
no, I think a loop is continuously being pulled over the pulley
well, weird but constant is better than weird but variable :)
my estimate could be +-25% and I'd never care
Oh sorry jepler I thought you where talking about the emc etch program only and not the complete article ie the linkage / gearing of the etch a sketch
yeah I was referring to the whole setup
would it be safe to lower my base_period to 10000 from 20000 or could this cause a lock up of my system>
it can cause a lock-up
the fastest anyone (known to me) has gotten a machine was around 7000
Base period = 7000 ???
yes, but don't try this at home :)
:-) ... This AMD 64 should be able to handle 10000 you would think ?
CPU speed isn't the main factor
The pluto looks just the ticket!
ray was getting lower base periods with a pci printer port wasn't he?
yes - PCI parport can be faster (for any device hanging off it - PPMC, pluto, nothing ...)
Oh ... paraport ... this one is on the motherboard!
But yes - if you like experimenting the pluto looks like a great deal.
* skunkworks has a pluto
yes pci is faster, but before bothering, do the math and figure out if it will be enough help
paragon36, I'm not sure how the AMD64 chips fare in RT-land (does anyone else have info on that?)
to use software counting successfully is a real compromise-juggling act
I don't expect them to be worse than 32-bit chips, but I don't know how the interrupt controllers perform
ideally you figure it all out, then order exactly the right resolution of encoder, and it works great... surplus motors/encoders are a problem.
I agree cradek ... But I picked up 11 pittman lo-cog motors up off ebay with internal 500 cpr optical encoders 24 volts ... look to be very good quality.
one of these days I'll get 3-4 of those for my tabletop mill
paragon36: make sure you read through this link http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25929
I do suspect as you suggest the limitation lies with the paraport
Thanks skunkworks..... Im bookmarking like crazy ... lol
the parport isn't the only thing. it's the amount of time it takes to respond to an interrupt (called latency)
paragon36: what machine do you have or plan on building?
modern CPUs are optimized for throughput (ie, processing as much stuff as possible), not latency (ie, responding to an external event quickly)
A CO2 laser cutter ...
oooh - nice
how many watts?
30 watts should be plenty to cut acrylic
alex is the guy that ran a 7000 period ;)
skunkworks: not me :)
I was at 7500
or maybe I don't remember properl:)
Driving a servo alex?
as I recall, it ended up being 7 ticks of the clock, so it may have been ~6 uS :)
Be back soon ... just going to read some more of the links you gave me .... Thanks All.
see you paragon36
SWPadnos: right.. 6500
Skunkworks I love the opening line of the link you sent me "Hi - my name is sam.. I am a cheap bastard. " lol = http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25929
well he is :)
though he was the second highest purchaser of Mesa gear ...
nice introductory text skunkworks
SWPadnos: see.. still proves he's a cheap bastard
he would have gotten more expensive cards or directly from mesa otherwise :D
or he plans to sell them overpriced later
being cheap doesn't stop you from spending a lot of money :-P
at least, it doesn't stop me
jepler: exactly ;)
I start with the thing that costs 1/10 what the guaranteed solution will cost -- if that doesn't work, I try something 1/4 the cost .. and so on
when I'm done I've spent about 2x the cost, but it doesn't stop me from saying I'm a cheap bastard
skunkworks: nice use of a PC's powerled/hddled cable on your encoder ;)
it helps keep up the "I really am cheap" feeling :p
speaking of cheap - I should buy a ferrule crimper that can do 8ga wire ;)
(sometimes I'm reminded of opposites ;) )
lerneaen_hydra: thanks for noticing ;) I re-cycle
SWPadnos: what's a ferrule crimper?
a tool for crimping wire ferrules
what are ferrules then?
a ferrules is what you use a ferrule crimper for
you all are soooo helpfull
things that you crimp onto the end of a wire so none of the strands escape, and to provide a regular surface for screws/other terminals to grab onto
[21:58:32] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/WIRE-FERRULES-ALL-SIZES-LISTED-500PC-BAG-12-L-K_W0QQitemZ220066757821QQihZ012QQcategoryZ73141QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
ah - I call it tinning ;)
my mate had a ferrule he used to go hunting with it ! ;-)
so I can get solder migration
SWPadnos: oh those
tinning isn't acceptable in most industrial situations
I don't think a ferrule is solder?
oh, those things
SWPadnos: I need a crimper for 95 mm^2 wire
definetly not a ferrite
that's big wire :)
* cradek briefly considers trying to get units to tell him what gauge that is
yes, it needs to take about 500A
at 40V or so
I bought some 0 gauge for battery cables (6 volt car)
modern cables wouldn't start it, too thin
hmmm - 2/0 is only rated for 285A or so (in cabinets, less for transmission)
even 4/0 isn't rated for 400A
let alone 500
SWPadnos: might be bigger then 2/0 then
we had moved one of the services for our company - the wire was 1 inch in diameter (the actual copper) and we had rented a hydrolic crimper to put ring connectors on
ah - it's closer to 3/0 - I was squaring the number instead of multiplying by pi or thereabouts :)
ooh he corrects his spelling now
25mm wire is manly
and 1" is incrementally manlier
25.4 then :p
skunkworks: something like that
about 6% manlier, I hear
if I was really manly - I would have remembered the actual wire guage
220-221 (mister mom reference)
4/0 is slightly less than 1/2", so that must have been something like 6/0 (if they even have ratings like that)
actually, maybe 10/0 ;)
[22:08:21] <SWPadnos> http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=guide_awg_to_metric
I will have to ask the resident electrition..
skunkworks has almost got as bad spelling as I do :D
yes - but I don't think english is your first language ;)
um, actually it is
he's trying at least
that's the bad thing
or at least it was
I figured sweedish
I lived in the US till I was 12-ish
my english really has suffered recently, after having gone to a swedish highschool for three years and speaking practically no english
lerneaen_hydra: wanna hear something funny?
while I was in sweden I spok eonly english :-P
think you can too if you want :P
I'm not sure if it will improve, I'll probably pick up an even more distinct swedish dialect :p
btw, anyone know of an app/script that will blank (output black) to a screen?
more like blank a second screen when playing a movie in the primary
hmmm. I'm not sure of an app to do that. I know Wolf:ET blanks the second monitor when I'm playing fullscreen on the first
so it's clearly possible for the movie player to do that for you
a system-wide solution would seem to be better
maybe, maybe not. the application (movie player) knows how much screen real estate it needs but an external app may not
hmm, the app could just be defined to blank/darken screen 1 and/or 2
Cradek ... I was just about to buy the pluto-P card from the us site it sent me to paypal.com and wanted to charge $9.95 for shipping do you know if this is for UK or US shipping?
[22:28:57] <paragon36> http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_Parallel.html
[22:30:39] <skunkworks> http://www.knjn.com/ShopInfo.html
paragon36: sorry, no idea
Bought it ... :-)
cu all .... thanks for your help!
anyone kicking around? could you go to http://126.96.36.199/mn/index.php/archives/commercial-retail/6
[nothing to check, just need to check my logs]
nm... working again.
* alex_joni just did
I think so :)
ips weren't resolving, but were said to be router itself.
yeah, that's me
going to make a LAMP server now, I think.
need a monitor now.
just found this site: http://freenet-homepage.de/palmill/index.htm
gonna grab my CNC machine's mon.
2 freeware programs for simulating a mill and a lathe
i used to use that a lot
yeah, but cncsim you need those pesky petrol files once in a while
but at least it's free
annoyanceware: every 6 months, the software takes another 1% of your soul away
or maybe that's damnationware
you know... this isn't a bad idea... mobo (onboard net) + ram + cpu + flash usb keys (3-4 of them 4gigs each, 16 gigs)... that'd be nice little server.