now do I have to rebuild?
make and stuff
just config.status from src/
alex_joni: "make" will regenerate xxx from xxx.in
no need to run config.status
ok.. I was used to the old ways :D
so just try it?
then run it
it will probably bitch the first time ;)
you're good :P
no I am not
I mostly get it wrong the first time :D
does "lsmod" show rtai_smi loaded?
It rt delayed on me
jepler: this reminds me that we have no way of passing arguments here.. right?
don't see it - in the lsmod list
03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/rtapi/sim_rtapi.c: disable clumpiness of thread execution when period is slow (e.g., 1ms, 500uS)
alex_joni: in 'realtime start'? No, we don't have an easy way
skunkworks: you did change rtapi.conf.in right?
and you did run make afterwards ?
heh.. then you can do it again
the rtapi.conf :)
it was just overwritten by make
right - at the top it says # DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE !
01:17 < skunkworks> where is that file?
01:18 < skunkworks> found it
01:19 < alex_joni> scripts/rtapi.conf.in
01:19 < alex_joni> is the one you need to change
well.. it says that in both files
that is why your info wasn't making sense @rtai@
MODULES="adeos rtai_hal rtai_ksched rtai_fifos rtai_shm rtai_sem rtai_math rtai_smi"
any place else? :(
that line you put in earlier
MODULES="adeos rtai_hal rtai_ksched rtai_fifos rtai_shm rtai_sem rtai_math rtai_smi"
you'll need to put the full path for MODPATH_rtai_smi in there
because we don't want to change configure.in and configure too
that would be the "really honest" way to do it :)
MODULES="adeos rtai_hal rtai_ksched rtai_fifos rtai_shm rtai_sem rtai_math rtai_smi"
now run make
in the src directory?
[00:21:22] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/290426
no other message there?
make -C /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.15-magma SUBDIRS=`pwd` CC=gcc V=0 -o /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.15-magma/Module.symvers modules
make: Entering directory `/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.15-magma'
Building modules, stage 2.
make: Leaving directory `/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.15-magma'
cp *.ko ../rtlib/
and emc_print.txt while you're at it :)
[00:23:38] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/290427
rtapi.conf looks good
did you try running emc again?
might have been a glitch
[00:24:53] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/290429
can I see home/samco/emc_debug.txt too?
nothing so far :/
how the hell did you know that?
ran just fine
now there is a rtai_smi in the lsmod
I've had it happen before
it's when udev doesn't provide /dev/rtai_shm fast enough
you mean I was too fast - that is suprising ;0
no errors yet - would have had one by now
I see the make only makes what has changed?
running 3d chips right now - no issues
very.. Now if I have to update head - do I need to make this change every time?
local changed files won't get overwritten
I will make a copy of it anyways. :)
you "might" (in the worst case) get an merge error, if someone updates the same file in the repo
then you'll have some >>>>>>> and <<<<<<< lines in that file
so you need to fix it manually
still running :)
now.. there would be another thing you could test
if you feel like it
oh yah? what
I just made a new rtai package :D
but there's a small problem with it
I "fixed" the rtai_smi module in a more generic way
that means you can pass at insmod time what to disable
unfortunately that also means the current scripts/realtime can't load it as it should
riiight. (over the top of the head)
I actually am going to a movie tonight - so maybe tomorrow if your around?
or the next day
maybe jmk can give it a shot
there you go - It must be painful having me doing it ;)
I tried, but it barfs for me (cause I have no intel chipset)
not at all
skunkworks: good.. then do as IBM says
never touch a running system :D
I hope to get some time this weekend to finally play with the pluto
alex_joni: I would have to say that this is a success... almost done with 3d chips - no unexpected delays.
Going to go take a shower now - I smell
Thanks again alex (this is so much better than I expected - I figured my laptop wouldn't be a rt machine)
too much work? ;)
skunkworks: glad it works out
no - no shower today. ;)
is this proper syntax in emc? O100 if [#1 ge #2]
cant find any documentation re GE, LE, etc.
[00:44:06] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Oword
I get an error using ge. Maybe it needs upper case, but gt works...
Maybe the actual problem is nearby. I'll look some more.
don't miss http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/main/#SECTION00500000000000000000
Yes, but the examples only show lt and GT. I can use those ok, but not ge.
no idea about ge though :)
gives me an unknown O word error.
the source code suggests that ge and le should work
ok. Probably some oter problem near it then. Brackets or something.
[00:53:26] <jepler> http://pastebin.ca/290454
this works for me -- it uses GE but not O-words
(the result of a comparison is 0 if false and 1 if true, so at each step it will go to x=0mm or x=1mm)
and it works the same if I write 'ge' instead of 'GE'
hey guys, I wrote a python program that lets you write G code with variable names and then goes through the code and replaces all the vars with #1, #2, etc.
the operators including GE are in the documentation here: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/main/#SECTION00233000000000000000
That's on my list of features to add to the interpreter when I get a chance.
davidf: that's pretty cool -- have you considered making it available online?
hi kenneth. thanks for saying to that 'alex' person what many others were thinking. (on the mailing list)
Yeah. I'm told that sometimes I lack self control.
jepler - Yes. It is a real help. I just wrote a program to make a mold that has like 70 variables. Imagine that with g code!
(My wife isn't very clear, though, if that's a good thing or a bad thing.)
Right now it has one annoying flaw. You must use totally unique variable names. X1 and x12 will be converted as #1 and #12
lerman: bet she holds it against you both ways depending on the situation
I hope to add named parameters AND string o-words.
davidf: if you're using regexp, include a non-character at the end of your search-and-replace string
yeah, but since I'm totally new to python, I just used plain string functions like str.replace
davidf: replace the longest variables first
or convert X1 to [#1] so at least [#1]2 will be a syntax error when it's treated as g-code
That's a good idea.
Anyway, Its easy to avoid. you can define var like this: ( var %x1 )
But to avoid probs, you can just do this: ( var %x1% )
davidf: what does the code look like? I was thinking #:foobargag: -- the thing between the :'s one be the variable name. There would be no need to actually convert this to a number if the change was in the interpreter
then %x1% is not part of %x12%
one -> would
Thats basically what I did, but I don't require any particular format for variable names. These are all valid declarations:
Alternatives: #foobargag$ ... The $ would terminate the string. If the first character after the # is a digit, then the parameter is a normal numberic parameter.
( var %x1 ) (( var #x1# ) ( var z )
So you could write #x1 = [3+3] #x1# = [4+5] z=6
this would convert to #1 = [3+3] #2 = [4+5] #3=6
forget the extra ( above.
It would be nicer to just do this in the interpret. The thing holding be back is that I don't have a system running EMC2. Does anyone know if I can install a simulation only version on a non-rt unix? And how would I do that?
lerman, you mean it would be nicer not to have to declare variables first?
lerman: a non-rt linux should be fine -- that's how I develop
lerman: get CVS and ./configure --enable-simulator
Yup. But then there is the issue of not conflicting with numbers that ARE used. By adding it to the interpreter, named parameters would have a context of the subroutine they are used in.
OK. Run me thru it from zero. I have a directory call EMC2. I've cd'd to it. Now what?
./configure --enable-simulator --enable-run-in-place
sudo make setuid
Nope. I just created the EMC2 direcotry. I don't have a source.
the last one is probably not needed :)
yep I think it chides you if you "make setuid" for the simulator
cvs -d:ext:email@example.com:/cvs co emc2
then cd src
./configure --enable-simulator --enable-run-in-place
it's trying to cvs.
[haito](lerman)$ cvs -d:ext:firstname.lastname@example.org:/cvs co emc2
it probably takes a while
connect to address 126.96.36.199: Connection refused
Trying krb4 rsh...
connect to address 188.8.131.52: Connection refused
trying normal rsh (/usr/bin/rsh)
cvs.linuxcnc.org: Connection refused
cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any)
try: export CVS_RSH=ssh
this is not needed on breezy but is needed on some systems
what system are you using?
fedora core something or other. Ah... now it is doing something (after the export...)
Hmmmm. still working...
will take a bit
~12 MB or so
er, isn't needed on ubuntu (breezy or dapper)
jepler: right.. seems cvs is properly setting up the env there
this was needed on SuSE iirc
not sure about SUSE though
It's up to src....
good night all
see you alex
lerman: there are probably some required packages that won't be preinstalled on your system -- the Debian names for the packages can be seen in the file debian/control.in. they will be slightly different on a fedora system
[haito](lerman)$ ./configure --enable-simulator --enable-run-in-place
checking installation prefix... /usr/local
checking for RT dir... configuring for simulator
checking for pth-config... no
configure: error: GNU PTH library is required: get it with apt-get install libpth-dev
So I see...
yep that's one right there
And I don't even have apt-get...
Rather than bugger up this system, I'll probably stick to my original plan and put this on a new machine.
...when I get a chance.
that advice is debian/ubuntu specific
on fedora I think you can use "yum" to find packages
(I used to be a redhat/fedora user, but ubuntu has taken my heart away)
[root@haito src]# yum install libpth-dev
Gathering header information file(s) from server(s)
Server: Fedora Core 1 - i386 - Base
retrygrab() failed for:
[01:31:19] <lerman> http://fedora.redhat.com/releases/fedora-core-1/headers/header.info
Executing failover method
failover: out of servers to try
Error getting file http://fedora.redhat.com/releases/fedora-core-1/headers/header.info
[Errno 4] IOError: HTTP Error 410: Gone
SWPadnos, I have a friend in buffalo, but 2hrs to just drive there, to pickup something, as opposed to paying $10-15 expedited parcel post, I'll pay the expedited parcel post, instead of the $40gas, + 4hrs of my time.
[01:51:00] <A-L-P-H-A> http://digg.com/tech_deals/12_99_Linksys_Wireless_G_Travel_Router
Hi Alpha....thats about $10 of gas in my Prius....240 miles...
wb9mjn: Your happy with the prius?
we ended up getting a toyota corola - maxes out at 41mpg
from midwest toyota
Yep....lots of slow and go in my daily commute...matches that perfectly...
The Prius maxed out at 58 tank average this summer...
Had some tanks that were 61 - 63 ish by the amount of gas pumped, but those were flukes...rubber gas tank....
wow - very nice
Expands and Contracts with temp...
The real consumption was 58....
right - we are getting around 36-38 this winter so far
Next tank was under the computer reading after being above the tank before....
Was down to 41 for that week of cold weather....starting the car up in sub 10 degrees all week but one day...
Back up to 50 now for this half tank since then....
Was out in the rainy weather during the midday at the median speed limit on friday, and allot of short trips...brought
I'm out of here. See you all later.... Ken
it down from 52 before that day...
The day I drove it home from LaCrosse there, it was 15 degrees...and with Cruise set at 70, it got 43 mpg...
wb9mjn, you're more than welcome to drive it from buffalo to Toronto for me.
I was just guestimating the fuel consumption
I average 7.5L/100KM.
Was just trying to get some conversation going....
that's going about 130km/h
What kinda car ?
2005 Cobalt LS.
Ecotech Engine, opal/GM.
I drive about 105 km/h typically on the highway...
I had a SL2 before the Prius...
what's an SL2?
Well,,,around here does not make sense...
That's like the ion right?
No....the SL2 is a much better car than the Ion...
2.4L Ecotech Engine, or was 2.2.
I like the sky.
1.9 liter DOHC , stamped metal space frame (not mono-coque)...
They look nice....but old technology....
[02:04:59] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.saturn.com/saturn/vehicles/futurevehicles/sky_hi/index.jsp
Try to do 75 around here, and you just run up some traffic jam's a** ...
I don't care about tech in my car... as long as it has AC, power windows/locks, and is reliable.
damn my back is feeling like crap... I really need a new pillow
I don't know if I'd get a sky or a solstice instead.
I think the sky...
They finally put VVT into em, I see....about 5 years behind the curve...
I'm kinda a GM whore, as I get discounts from my GM visa card.
and new grad rebates.
Uses a Toyota Transmission company (Aisin) manual trans...
[02:08:08] <A-L-P-H-A> http://en.research.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/autos/vip/overview.aspx?year=&make=Saturn&model=Sky&ts=73589222007
Saturn is good on the fabrication issues....but, they have gone backwards...Sky apparently uses the stamped space frame
construction like the SL series...that they went away from...
for the Ions, LW's etc...
Well...the redline has their supercharger in it...
I have almost halved the gas consumption here with the Prius versus the SL2 ....and the Prius is allot bigger...
Although they weigh about the same.......
I'm not a tree loving hippy... I don't mind hybrids, just not the prius.
if there was a hybrid G35... yummm.
The Prius is the only car sold that was designed from the ground up as a Hybrid...
the sky is a little, "HEY LOOK! I have a small penis", but still looks good.
So, its no compromise...
how much is the prius?
The Lexus GS400H might be what you might like then...
Anywhere from 23 to 30 .....
Lots of options packages...
Same drivetrain in all of em...
bit small in the engine dept. though
we had thought about the prius - but at the time there was about a 3 month waiting period - how long did you have to wait?
I am not really a hippy....just cheap on the consumables...
come from the man that used to produce top gear.
That s the thing with that 60 hp motor, besides the 1.5 liter engine....
anly 4.2 litres isnt it? I thought USA'ians prefered at least 8 litres for going to the shops
robin_sz, isn't it past your bed time? :D
Yea...seen the Top-Gear crap...
brb... my glasses are filthy.
Yea....no waiting period anylonger, and they are selling like normal cars under MSRP now...
small cars here are 1100cc .. family estates, 2.0 ...
Guys, could you please take a look at this & try to see why I'm getting an error: 'Unknown control command in O word'?
I have never owned a car more than 2.4 liters....
my car is only a 3 liter :) forced induction though
freind just got a Lexus R400 hybrid ...
Just a few lines, can I paste it here?
seems nice, but scary when it moves off siliently
O320while [#2 ge #27]
#3 = [#6-Sqrt[#6*#6-#1*#1-#2*#2]-#68]
G01 x [#1] y [#2] z[#3] F [#58]
#1 = [#1 + #65]
#2 = [#2 + #66]
O321if [#2 lt #27]
#2 = [#27]
They are not that quite to pedestrians...had one try to sneak up on me when I was out walking once...
The Prius is a whole 'nother level of stealth....
It says near the G01 line.
You can hear the inverter whine in the RX400H ....
From outside the car....
Don't you need to define varialbes before you use them ?
Oh...most other lanquages you do...just good practice...
I had a 2002 Grand AM GT, 3.4L V6... I liked it, except near the end, I was getting like 13.5L/100km highway.
I needed a new O2 sensor.
They are defined (set to a value) previously.
Stay away from the Grand Prix's....they handle like pigs....
gave it back to the dealership, as end of lease...
Grand Prix are too big...
Got hit by one, then had to drive one why my car was being fixed...No wonder the guy hit me...!!!
If I get another GM car, it maybe a CTS, Sky, or Solstice.
depending on my budget.
davidf, I have no clue why you have lines begining 0320 .. didnt you mean N0320?
Had a Guy in a CTS hassle me at a light, zipped around...then had to lift throttle to keep from running
wb9mjn, try a boat... Chrysler 300m.
or is this not EMC
into his rear end up to 40....
That, in my 1.5 liter Prius....
He was plenty fast when the his engine came on cam, but lame until....
CTS are not sports cars... they're entry level lux cars.
robin_sz, thats O320 letter O, #320
The Prius is hardly a sports car, nor does it have a V8, either...hi...
I dunno why I'm a GM whore.
And .. since what date has the EMC interpreter handled O words ??
I've had 98 Grand Am, 02 Grand Am GT, 2004 Cavelier (still do), 2005 Cobalt LS (current)
That is new with EMC2 robin....on my to-do list to learn...
oh, k, someone should update the docs too
Oh, doesn't SQRT need to be capitalized ?
That's O code, has to mark beginning and end of loops & if's...
Or maybe G-code does not recognise SQRT ?
No, I dont think so. re Sqrt
[02:23:34] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.celebsarepeopletoo.com/2006/11/30/salma-hayek-promotes-something/
safe for work... but wow... if she only did something with her hair
well, 'fraid I cant help as it doesnt seem to be documented
Sqrt is ok, have it before this part, np.
Oh...what is a 'ge' ...
davidf: to start with - the feed rate needt to be set #58
first error I get is feed rate cannot be zero
you mean #58 not [#58]?
Maybe it is 0. let me look.
plus endwile is endwhile
robin_sz, you know much about steppers?
Don't the #numbers need to be in brackets by themselves to be variables?
okay... give me 2-5 minutes to get some numbers to run by you
So, using brakets to delimit does not work...use paren's ?
That is probably it Skunk...
Its the spelling. Wonder how long I'd have looked at that w/o seeing it.
iirc, any variable maths has to be in 
#1=99 is bad
Yep...use parenthesis for the expressions,and brackets around the variables?
I have a 72VDC line, going to geckos... but the motors are plated at 2.8... which means I'm running them 25.7 times their rated plate rating. Is that BAD?
() is a comment.
I know the motors will run hot, but will they fry?
sounds very high
Ok......See, I was doing this just the other week, and forgot already....too much machine rebuilding...hi..
why so high?
are they big motors?
Probably a bit of overkill Alpha...
well, drop down to 50V I would say
see, I'm trying to cheap out, and sell one power supply. I have two already.
The high voltage is used so that a pulse does not round off much due to RL Response...
I have one that's like ~40VDC... and the other is 72.
your probably blow the geckos eventually
the 72, is good for the mill.
geckos are rated for 80VDC, with a heat sink.
I got a large heatsink on the geckos already
72V today ... but on a day the mains is a bit high?
and under deceleration?
robin_sz, I think #1=99 is ok in emc. It doesn't give an error. I think you only need  for stuff like [5+2.0+#1] etc
I got large caps buffering those spikes.
you are pumping energy back intot he supply ...
doubtful... the ball screws are being thrown around.. they have to be spun, and don't free spin.
Thanks for pointing out the spelling error. I just couln't see it. :)
well, persoanlly, I would go for about 50V ... ymmv
Did you see Skunk's comment about "endwile" david ?
Yes. That's what I meant. Thanks skunkworks !
did you gear down or direct drive onto the ballscrews?
Thanks cradek....Programing in Labview is like driving a Prius...you just do not concentrate on the old syntax
gear up... small gear on motor, large gear on ball screw.
Thanks for the link. That's what I thought. I've read that in the docs.
I should really switch that down, or go 1:1
A-L-P-H-A, sounds right .. 2:1, 3:1
nah, not 1:1
those motors need to spin
especially if their brushed dc...
they dont produce full power until 600rpm or so
Where is the torque knee ?
No motor expert, but would try to keep em under 600 then....
well, thats the mistake
you want to be over 600rpm on G0
That might work...
and hitting 600rpm on your fastest cuts
As there is usually no load but table and inertia for G0...
the common mistake is to gear for keeping G0 below the torque knee
and cuts at like 100 rpm
the maximum power available then is like 15% of what the motor is capable of
Did you set the resistor in the Geckos for the motor winding current limit ?
I'll email mariss, and ask him...
and you get stalls. .. the newbies then decide it needs gearing down MORE .. and make matters worse
I don't want to call... he talks up a storm.
let em spin baby
Need to set that resistor carefully....
Does your PS have the current capacity of the motors ?
you only need 2/3rds
Ok....but at 72 volts, he might have 1/8 ...
I solved that two years ago, forgot and relearned several months ago, still good.
and you can only draw that 2/3rds if you are hitting full power at the torqu knee or above
its quite impossible to draw 2/3rds rated current below torqu knee anyway
robin_sz, impossible? :D
Do you have a hand crank on the axis, and does it feel like the torque is the same as previously ?
To turn the screw with the steppers off....
robin_sz, AJ taught me about VA... to calculate with that... and factor in the 25% "stupid" tax onto it.
I can't turn the damn thing, with the steppers on, on my mill.
A-L-P-H-A, yeah, cant be done. the drives cannot deliver full current below the knee
power surge, that jumps the fuses?
its a linear slope .. full power at the knee is 2/3rds rated motor current from the supply ... it tails of to close to zero when stalled
its pretty flat above the knee ... assuming your mechanicla load can pull full power out of the system
lightly loaded (example in G0) current will be less .. infact .. you only pull 2/3rds rated current just on the point of a stall
so in practice. a supply rated for 50% of motor current is usally plenty
because it will handle more than that intermittently with ease
Is the supply cap still good ? Screws tight, has not developed a high ESR? Espcially important for chopper drives...
* robin_sz shrugs
the 470uF on board handles most of the 20khz ripple
If there is 0 lead resistance to the 470 uf ...
the big C just smoothes out the 100hz onthe supply a bit, not that important, as the drive will deliver the correct current anyway over quite alarge oltage range
Yea...he does have 72 volts.....
I have a huge uf cap bank... plus the 470uf at each gecko
it wold have to have a LOT of ripple befor ethings got baaaad
So, plenty of margin there...
I think I have 3 or 4 4700uF caps in parallel...
so at least 13,000 uF cap bank.
Disconnect a stepper from a screw, and see if it works....
I'll take it off the belt. I know they'll work.
just wonder if they'll burn out my motors.
maybe I'll just get new steppers.
Measure your screw torque ....
umm. like with what?
A balance beam and some quarters....
Maybe not...that is for somewhat small machines...
* A-L-P-H-A thinks... uh, yeah ... I'll get right on that.
this is 2.8V and 2.8A stepper motors
Nothing like hard numbers....
I'll be back later.
going to lay down... I've didn't get enough sleep, and on a shitty pillow
aaah, the bigos is cooking & i just made a big martini... once a year, this is good
woof, too warm in here now :)
Moskovskaya this is the real stuff
Stli makes it, but this is 8.99$ 750 ml... good AND cheap
Stoli ( excuse my spelling, quite a challenge right now :)
2 down, thats all i can do, nite all
shopping is so much better at between 10 and midnight
last minute shopper, eh?
could be :)
this year was relatively early for me - I did most of my shopping on 12/21
mostly groceries - we are having family over for christmas day.
did that earlier this evening
and some gift cards :)
I'm old fashioned - I don't like to give gift cards
unless I'm desperate for ideas
No unexpected delay - been running emc all night
I got my electrical enclosure mounted ;-)
virtually cut the penguin about 20 times so far ;)
nice - pictures?
looks like it did before, except with no bricks underneath
(well, not exactly - the top mounting tabs are gone, and angle iron brackets are screwed to the sides)
did you figure out how you where going to mount the vfd?
I spent too much time worrying about that yesterday, so I finally told myself to forget about it and mount the box instead
I think I was overthinking things
I get hung up on stuff like that.. walk away
I was trying to figure out how to mount it with the fins outside, so I could keep the box sealed
but cutting a big hole in the box for the fins wouldn't be easy, and it _would_ be permanent
so I'm gonna mount it inside
right - going to have cooling fan(s) then?
if I have to put a filtered air inlet at the bottom of the box, and an outlet near the top, so be it
I'll probably design space for the inlet and outlet, but won't install them until I run the thing
might not even need them
I keep letting my high power experience influence my thinking - gotta remember this isn't that big
like the geckos - I was gonna try to mount their heatsink with the fins outside too.... till I found out that the _maximum_ disspation of a gecko is 18 watts
even three of them is only 54 watts
I ran my 60 watt trouble light inside the closed box for hours the other day, and I could barely detect warmth on the outside of the box
maybe a couple degrees C rise
I suppose you could do some cool calculations to figure out how much heat transfer you get from the inside to outside of the box :)
there are too many assumptions
I did some googling with that in mind
the only data I could find on natural heat loss from an enclosure was from a company selling enclosure cooling systems
I think they stacked the numbers to make natural cooling look bad
because their numbers and my 60 watt test were way off
they predicted something like 15-20C rise
I bet I had 5 at most
now that the thing is mounted, and not perched precariously on a stack of bricks, I should try to do a better test
I need to put 200-300 watts in there, and see what happens
what is the max temp you would like to see in the box?
hard to say
with 30C outside
I just realized one thing I can calculate...
assuming I do bring in outside air, at 30C
and I exhaust it at say 40C
and a known heat load (300 watts as a guess)
I can figure the required CFM
* jmkasunich calculates...
[06:11:51] <jmkasunich> http://www.comairrotron.com/airflow_note.shtml
not too terrible
alex walked me through adding the rtai_smi.ko module so it gets loaded when emc starts.
I saw some of that
only took a few tries to get it right.. I had edited the wrong file to begin with.
same here - night
you all miss me?
* aip_tom1 ponders
fresh bread, mmmm
you there alex ?
he was here a few hours ago
:D I finally got around to writing a howto for the embedded gentoo with X
If any of you feel like building a linux which can boot from FLASH (usb key, compact flash, sd) and has X see -> http://dallur.com/index.php?id=138
20.5MB for a full kernel with base utils and X is pretty good, I don't have any info on adding Real Time extensions or EMC but it should be easy enough
ooh, does it unload everything to ram and then not touch the flash card?
(except when halting and saving stuff to flash)
and you say it should be able to run emc?
sounds very nice
that would let you run emc on an entirely solid-state machine
LH: That's what I am running
LH: and for less than $300 entire setup
nice! I've always wanted to remove the harddisk from machines that control stuff
This is the motherboard that I use to develop on: http://store.orbitmicro.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=39931
hmm, do you think the integrated video will bork RT?
The fun part is that the hardware is almost exactly the same as the stuff used for the OLTP (one laptop per child) project
LH: I don't think so no, Alex had a GX board and that was fine
price wasn't that bad
LH: The reason I started this is because im getting paid to for my daytime job
oh, that's nice
LH: They intend to sell these things with monitors for <$200, although those won't have parport
that sounds tough
crt or lcd?
LH: LCD, only 9"
hmm, so $30 for the lcd?
LH: about, they get everything directly built for them in Taiwan..
how many do they think will be produced?
oh, quite a few
LH: I just wish they had a parport, or a generic IO port
what's the target market?
yeah, that's a pity
LH: im not sure I am allowed to say, but it's in Education
oh, so not industial stuff?
sounds like it's powerful enough for basic educational stuff
what resolution do 9" screens usually have?
800x600 at least?
LH: nope, only 430x380
not even a multiple of vga :p
LH: I know :(
But it would still be good enough for something like TKEMC
If people would want Axis they could just run that in parallel over the network
axis should be doable in 430x380
less text and more icons
LH: If the price point for an EMC controller can go down to <300 with solid state we might even see it starting to ship with new machines
now that would be interesting
how much are commercial controllers?
nahh, probably the big guys get them for 500 or so
let me check real fast on the retail for a large manufacturer
LH: For a Siemens or Fanuc controller the purchase price seems to be just around $1000 with 3 axis position sensors and limits
not that bad actually
LH: Nope, but you and me would never get those prices
an emc machine is going to have to be quite cheap then
LH: I would think that sub 300 would make it worth it for mainland china manufacturers to switch
that would have to be for small cnc machines
LH: They might even be able to push the price down to about $100 for the machine if they buy bulk and have it made locally
The last Dell machine I bought was about $300. -- Including a 19 inch LCD monito (and shipping was free)r. So... EMC can be done for $300.
did it work with EMC?
those cheapo machines usually have integrated video, which can cause issues
I haven't tried it with EMC. I'll use it to replace my desktop.
Rugludallur: Hello, Merry Christmas Eve Morning
btw if you have a lot you have to do, to get ready for christmas eve, I suggest sleeping until 10:30am as a good start
:) works great. We are now rushing to get to a get-togather. :)
shopping until midnight didn't help
I suppose not
but it was painless ;)
I have virtually cut over 20 penguins - no issues so far :)
:) no issues with usb sticks either.
03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/ (pluto_servo.comp pluto_servo_rbf.h): add support for pwm+direction mode and pdm output waveform
03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/pluto_servo_firmware/ (5 files): add support for pwm+direction mode and pdm output waveform
great job jepler.
I will get to playing with the pluto ;)
sounds like you have other things to do right now
skunkworks: you penguin killer
ve7it is now known as LawrenceG
that's tomorrow. :D
I feel like going back to sleep
you guys sure are slow
we've already had christmas..
"had" or having?
it's the 24th!
it's 24:th here..
silly backwards european.
The Julian calendar, had the winter solstice on Dec 25th... but now that we have the new calendar, we kept the date.
So we're 4 days off from the winter solstice.
anonimasu: it was a european change fool.
and it's pronounced, americants.
there's a "T". :D
* Lerneaen_Hydra tries to resist calling it "americunts" and fails. miserably
you're both gonna get lumps of coal in your stockings from me!
technically I am american
so don't feel too insulted
now be nice :D
I'm in the process of downloading ubuntu and hope to have it installed soon. The discussion last night about named parameters made me want to just add that to the interpreter and be done with it. I'll let you guys know if I need help (with the emc2 installation). I'll just be running sim, so it shouldn't be a big deal.
lerman: nice Christmas present for all of us. named variables ( depth height, step-over) nicer than fanucy #12 #14#15 :) thanks
now if somone just writes a pocketing macro ;)
for non uniform pockets :D
I'm thinking the syntax will be #[foobargag]
What are the specs fo non-uniform pockets?
k, like #[fred] #[lucy] #[ricky] #[littlericky] :)
What does the phrase "non uniform pockets" mean to you.
well, if a pocket looks like a P then it's non unform..
anonimasu: describe how you'd would standardized the description ( a macro has a set format )
The input to the macro needs to be in some form. How would you specify that form?
--I do wear glasses, but I still need "specs".
I dunno how you'd do that it's tricky..
ouside path : island count: island 1 path: island2path:...:island path
something like giving g-code for the outline..
Or centers and radii?
For the corners
I suspect my first cut at THAT would require the user to tesselate the area into triangles.
would probably not end up practical
:) in telling the macro what you wanted, you almost wrote the program :)
random musing: who was the person here a while back who lived in england (IIRC) and manufactured some type of hydraulic hilsch vortex tube-like thing?
hilsch vortex tube thing?
Hilsch vortexs are pneumatic; not hydraulic.
anonimasu: pump in high pressure air/whatever, get hot on one side cold on the other
hence hilch vortex-_like_ ;)
My guess is that they require a compressible "fluid"
the tool cooling thingy
My understanding is that: (1) they require a LOT of air (2) they are quite noisy.
advertized in metalfax
lerman: sounds reasonable
lerman: seeing as how they are based on sonic shock fronts it sounds plausible
my puppy moves here tomorrow :)
And that doesn't count the fact that they are inefficient and the compressor is noisy.
puppy as in small dog or as in a version of unix?
[19:20:35] <anonimasu> http://www.almaskin.se/Zelda.jpg
[19:21:09] <tomp> http://www.exair.com/spotcooling_products/cg_page.htm?source=google&group=coldgun
Who's the lower face in the picture?
anonimasu: nice pup! I like dogs
(With the dog.)
Is that a question?
that questionmark was just keyboard abuse..
tomp: I hope I'll still like dogs after the first week ;)
noisy? 70 dBA
Gee. You're a young guy. (From now on I'll discount anything you say by at least 50%).
hm, somone here needs to buy a coldgun.. and make a cnc program for a diy one.
100 psi, 15 SCFM
I'm old enough to be your grandfather -- discount anything I say by 75%.
15 SCFM? I'd have to buy a new compressor -- and then listen to it.
They are pretty simple -- no moving parts.
yeah, but what dimensions/ratio...
No -- simple grandfathers have no moving parts.
I'll bet we can find a design out there.
making one probably isnt too hard..
I guess buying one isnt either but shipping from us and stuff always is a mess
[19:28:49] <lerman> http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/05/the_hilsch_vortex_tube.html
the only fiddly bit is the nautilus shaped hole inserted into the stream
the shell thing?
I dont think so
Following the link: http://www.visi.com/%7Edarus/hilsch/
has plans and measurements. Probably a good starting point for a design.
yeah, the hole that begins the spinning, might not be needed if the entry is tangential
the spiral chamber isnt that hard.. I think
the only hard part is the corners..
no, they are all round..
if you'd like I can make a toolpath for one
I have some gcode to cut an involute spiral. I used it to make a cam for a fixture I built. It ran pretty damn slowly because it approximated the curve by lots of short lines.
need the spiral to spin and to compress ( the end of the path is compressed to the central shaft )
we have g61.3 (if I remember it right)
maybe exact geometry not neccesary ( efficiency difference between perfect and eyeball might be hard to measure)
What is g61.3? (Involute spiral?)
Ah... That would make the short segments run raster.
just make them 0.01 and do g61.3 p0.01
then it'll blend them togther
is it g64?
I thought I saw something in canon that would let you do a spiral. But no command that did that.
the url with the 'prints' looks like the 'amateur scientist' page of Scientific American
Yes. It is.
hey , can that be a dryer as well? ( compression and stream splitting would put moisture to which stream )
I could make it on the mill as a single piece of alumium with female threads on each end. It would leave more room to experiment if the diaphragm were a separate part. Since I've never milled pipe threads, that might be a slight problem.
the question is now how you draw a involute curve in solidworks :D
or alibre or anything..
isn't there a simple parametric representation for involute? should be very easy to generate gcode directly
[19:45:32] <anonimasu> http://www.abbeyclock.com/gearing4.html
[19:46:15] <anonimasu> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Involute.html
The drawing shows pipe with an ID of about 1/2 inch. Sounds like roughly "3/8" inch (trade size) pipe.
At that size, I could just thread it with a tap (in aluminum, anyway).
emc2/lathe can cut tapered threads...
the spiffy clock by itself : http://www.abbeyclock.com/time/green.swf
Yes. But not on MY milling machine.
ah I know how you can do it..
err draw a involute curve..
[19:50:48] <cradek> http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Curves/Involute.html
here's involute of a circle, much nicer than involute of an arbitrary shape like those other pages
cradek: what'd t?
the parametric variable
very nice: simple what's a good dt for it though? x = a(cos(t) + t sin(t)), y = a(sin(t) - t cos(t))
tomp: that will depend on the part tolerance
cradek: for the case at hand, the vortex
(Program to mill a helical cam)
(#1 = CenterX #2 - CenterY)
(#3 = ToolDia)
(#4 = MinRadius #5 = MaxRadius)
(#6 = NumberOfSteps)
(#7 = FeedRate)
(#8 = Depth)
(#10 = current angle degrees)
(#11 = 1 if at depth)
(#12 = tool radius)
(#13 = radius at current angle)
(#14 = X #15 = Y)
(#16 = current step number)
#12 = [#3/2.0]
#16 = 0
#11 = 0
o5301 while [#16 LT #6]
#10 = [#16 * 360. / #6]
#13 = [#5 - [#10/360] * [#5 - #4] + #12]
#14 = [[0 - #13 * cos[#10]] + #2]
#15 = [[#13 * sin[#10]] + #1]
o5302 if [#11 NE 1]
#11 = 1
G1 F#7 X#14 Y#15 (Go to point)
G1 F[#7/5.0] Z#8 (Plunge to depth)
G1 F#7 X#14 Y#15 (Mill to point)
#16 = [#16 + 1]
G0 Z.2 (Retract)
([0,0,0] is at surface in center of cam)
(Start above surface with clear path to initial point)
(To do multiple passes, lie about the tool diameter first pass)
o5300 call [.800][.5][1.0][5.0][-2.220]
o5300 call [.650][.5][1.0][5.0][-2.220]
o5300 call [.530][.5][1.0][5.0][-2.220]
o5300 call [.500][.5][1.0][5.0][-2.220]
Sorry it's so long -- it was clearly a mistake to put it here. This is pretty crude, but the subroutine is an involute curve to mill a cam with higher than needed precision.
yes: another Christmas present, yippee! :)
[19:59:03] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/involute.png
[19:59:32] <cradek> http://pastebin.ca/291129
^ the program
with the AXIS python filter you can load that file directly
(sim/axis config has this)
cradek: python rocks ;)
I wonder if I can put that into the cad program..
as a table of points..
I've copied my code to a web page: http://www.se-ltd.com/~lerman/files/cam.ngc
I have an ubuntu....iso file on my windoze machine. How do I write that image to a cd (on windows). Sorry to mention he who's name must not be spoken.
lerman: it depends on the program you have to write CDs
they all do it differently :-/
there's a windows frontend for it :)
if you dont already have a program like nero or something
the program must understand an iso image, in general that text will appear on the choice (the literal ".iso' )
sometimes doubleclicking the iso itself will give you the right thing
I have a copy of nero on my other machine... I had hoped XP could handle an iso file. But it doesn't appear to.
I find that hilsch tube thing really neat..
for cooling endmills and stuff..
03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/nc_files/involute.py:
very simple demo program to generate an involute curve, load directly
yeah looks very interesting
I'm going to machine one of thoose, but I'd like to make a real cad drawing first :)
you're doing it the hard way then :-)
it's a good excercise .)
if building one, note the concept drawings using pipe will lead you to problems with pipe thread and sizes... dont get lead down that path
design it with clean shapes that you can accurately make
that's why im drawing it up first..
or, make one quick & dirty to test the idea :)
I guess I could make the vortex chamber in acetal..
though im really short on piping
good! short pipe is what's called for :)
Merry Christmas Eve John
and to you
Merry Christmas, and remember Kwanzaa is fake! :D
for a moment I thought that said "remember Kansas is fake"
kansas is not fake, kansas is long
kansas is sure something, not sure it's fake though
what kind of steel are boring bars made of? There's a carbide (insert) boring bar and stuff.
hay is for horses
tha'ts hay, I said hey
tool steel, of various kinds
some are solid carbide - very stiff
could I not make something decent, with drill rod, and then harden it?
actually, hardness and stiffness aren't the same thing
if you are gonna use carbide inserst you _might_ want to harden the seat where the insert goes
but hardening won't increase stiffness
I have a 3/4" diameter boring bar I made out of unhardened drill rod
the end is slotted to take a 3/16" square HSS bit
it works in holds from 7/8" diameter up
jmkasunich: got pics by chance?
no, but I could take one
would you mind?
hang on a few mins
damn right foot is asleep
how do you tile applications in gnome?
[20:52:54] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/boring-bar-2.jpg
its about 8" long, I have a toolholder that accepts 3/4" round things, I slide it in as far as possible when using it
if I was using the full length (2" in the holder, 6" stickout) it would be rather flexible, limited to light cuts
I was thinking of using carbide inserts, and just making my own holders.
acemi__ is now known as acemi
carbide is brittle, so you gotta make sure you support it well under the cutting edge
I prefer HSS - you can get a sharper edge, and resharpen when needed
but it depends on the kind of work you want to do
but then again, more and more I think about it, the less and less I want to deal with making a bar.
I have a boring bar already.
and I'm borrowing my buddies, so I shouldn't really care at all.
www.circlemachine.com/images/cat02_pdf/page089.pdf borrowing the ccbi-180/187-4-5R
03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/pluto_servo.html: include HTML documentation of pluto .. we'll worry about formats later
right now, I would pay cash for a DOS PC
freedos install CD
selection of computers
1) laptop, Win NT, domain logon, password locked down .. ideal candidate for DOS yes?
except, only bootable from A or C
and it doesnt have a floppy drive
2) a P166 ... that does ahve an old version of freedos (again, only bootable from A nd C) .. cant be arsed to do the floppies thing
3) another one the same
4) a dell, that will boot from CDROM .. hurrah!
but that only has SCSI discs :(
selection of dead/dying PC carcasses ... time for a run to the tip I think
* jepler debates upgrading his laptop to edgy
well, why not make floppies?
well I thought about that
I ended up slamming my fingers repeatedly in the desk drawer as it was less painful than messign about with a dozen floppies
do you need a dozen for freedos?
I even tried running the LiveCD version of freedos on my good laptop
of course, then I cant actually mount the disk with the application I need, because as soon as I remove the LiveCD, it dies
and the C drive is formatted as ext3 etc
03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/pluto_servo.comp: remove mention of unfinished epp_soft module parameter
what a pain
03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/pluto_servo.html: mostly pwm clarifications
I suppose I could mount the freedos live CD iso image on a linux box via the loopback device ... add the stuff I need ... copy it back onto the windows box, write a livecd again , ...
Alpha said: Merry Christmas, and remember Kwanzaa is fake! :D ... Kwanzaa is invented. Christmas is fake. Santa Claus, Rudolph, all that consumer stuff.
and the idea of a White Christmas came from a song written by a jewish guy :)
(based on his remembrance of the white tinsel decorations and lights of his christian firends' houses)
I'm having ubuntu problems. I put the burned iso cd in the machine. Up comes ubuntu with some choices. I select check disk. It gets to mounting root file system, hangs a while, I go away, come back and it is in a busybox shell. No clue if the test passed (I think not). Then I reboot, select run or install (or some such). It hangs a long time (in mounting root file system). I go back down...
...stairs and start typing this. :-(
Still hanging in booting linux kernel... I suspect either (1) the machine is too fscking slow and old and unsupported (VGA display). Or (2) the cd is NFG.
at the end of "check disk" it should tell you whether any files failed
if it didn't have a line that said no files failed, and you're not sure you trust this machine, then I'd next try the "check" process on another machine
lerman, its not "christmas" its winter solstice anyway ;)
with the same media
is there at least 256 megs RAM in the machine you're trying to install?
Thanks. I'm burning another one at 8x instead of 24x.
I'll vote for the winter solstice. When do we take off our clothes and paint ourselves blue.
I think it is a 256 meg machine -- possibly 512.
ok -- 256 is the published minimum, though some people have reported hangs during the install with only 256. (after reaching the graphical desktop)
It didn't have a line that said no files failed. I'll try checking the mdsum on the iso image.
I never got a real desktop.
it sounds like something went really wrong in the "verify" process
"verify" will stay in the same video mode that you saw when it said "mounting root filesystem", so it probably isn't a video problem if you got that far.
I agree -- probably NOT a video problem. VGA isn't much, but it IS well supported.
so, I bought myself a present .. a bluetooth headset for the phone, before I get fined for using the phone while driving
Besides, the phone gets in the way when you are trying to light a cigarette while holding a soda at 60 MPH.
60 MPH? You must be talking about residential areas, then
Of course. On the highway you can just lean your knee against the steering wheel.
lerman: yeah, but on curvy roads that's harder
BBL -- I'm going upstairs to try the new cd I just burned.
"Configuring the video is a more arcane." (Yggdrasil LGX beta installation instructions)
03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/pluto_servo_firmware/.cvsignore: ignore additional generated and temporary files
i still have several 7 cd yggsadril installations, my 1st linuxes
you mean, it came on 7 CDs? That sounds huge.
I have FPGA apps that come on DVD now :(
(and an ARM compiler / system tool set)
it came with entire archives of sunsite :)
jepler: one of my early linuxes (SuSE 6.3) came on 6 CDs
2 were sources though iirc
I like that ubuntu is 1 CD
how is it that newer ones (ubuntu) are smaller?
jmkasunich: they don't include everything
they assume internet access for later package installs?
jmkasunich: less packages
you can't get a development environmnet off the first CD
16000 packages for ubuntu
wthat's a scary thought
I think the debian full repo is about 50Gig these days
yeah but do you really need all that stuff to live?
anonimasu: no, that's why you get _1_ CD
alex_joni: I Love slackware.
access speed was so slow, that they gave you everything possible
7CDs = 4.9G, right\
that means a recent debian is 70CDs
7 CDs thru the mail (if it takes a week) is 81 kbits/sec
faster than a modem
hell of a latency though
apps are huge nowadays, tho powerful, a step away from 'running light without oberbyte'
ah telephone modems
how little I miss them
jepler: same here
I still use mine, but very rarely
although I have an external USR I enjoyed
I was cleaning and came across a couple of 56K externals
jmkasunich: those were quite good
it's still more reliable than broadband :-/
_almost_ threw them away, but something stopped me
I still run my isdn as backup
cradek: are you sure?
phones work when nothing else does
I have a cell connection for backup
alex_joni: yeah, but it's cheaper to dl stuff over phone..
depends on your definition of reliable I guess
hours of uptime per disconnect, I bet DSL wins
anonimasu: this is about 50$/month for 2MBps, unlimited quota
not like GPRS :)
alex_joni: I'm going to upgrade to that..
anonimasu: 3g still sucks :D
2MBps? That beats my DSL (1.5Mbps down)
alex_joni: oh, that includes wlan to telias accespoints at wherever they are..
this is CDMA
but admittedly I've stayed on this speed because it's adequate for me
not regular GSM
jepler: it's supposedly 2.4Mbps
I should call my ISP and bitch at them
unlike a DSL it's not usual to actually reach those speeds :D
[22:58:47] <alex_joni> http://www.zapp.ro/technology/evdo/;jsessionid=0000DfJzMSihdHv1GWJgC-l92VB:-1
I'm paying $39.95 (which is what I always paid), but they're offering new subscribers 1.5M for $19.99, and 3 (or is it 6) for $34.99
alex_joni: I dont think you can get that here..
quite oddly it was first available in Romania (CDMA)
when EVDO was introduced it was first Czech republic, then Romania
brb having a bath
that's the first countries in Europe
alex_joni: what's nice about cell stuff is the coverage
this is a bit better, it works in 450MHz not 900MHz as usual GSM
lower frequency means slightly better coverage
this is why I like my local phone/DSL provider - I always get the best deal when they change things
I used to pay $99.95/month for DSL, but it went down to $49.95
I could lower it to $35, but I like the "business class" service, which also gives me simultaneous dial-up when I'm traveling
(not that I ever use it - hmmm)
oh wait - that's supposed to be hungry, hungry, hungry, bad tempered
problem solved -- cold left-over pizza
SWPadnos: according to the website, 34.99 should get me 3 to 6 mbps down and 512 to 786k up
damn - that's good (and not even available here over DSL)
that's about what I have and about what I pay
no static IPs though
we can get charter cable service though, which is 6-10 Mbps
I'm paying 39.95, and I dunno what I'm getting
actually, I get a 20% discound from a bundle of services, so I pay ~$100/month for 2 lines and DSL, including all taxes/fees
according to speakeasy, I'm getting 768 down and 103 up
I test out to 1450/208 on speakeasy
I think I'm only 0.8 miles from a CO, so theoretically I should be able to get the 7.68Mbps service here ...
I get 4818/155
I wish I could trade some of that down for up
heh - yeah
but then you might run an evil "server" or something
1607/418 on sbcglobal
I'm installing ubuntu -- seems to be working. Anyone here using vnc on ubuntu? How do I get/install it?
Ah... Found it.
i'm using 5.2 ghz wireless, 3 mb symmetric (though they offer 6mb symmetric)
dsl around here sucks, and i could only get 384kb/384kb from Ma Bell
only $50/mo, too, but the equipment is leased at $20/mo. you can buy outright for $400, if you want
it's all based on the Motorola Canopy system, there are other vendors in the US that use it, but it helps if the local geography is favorable to wireless
aip_tom: how far?
alex_joni: 20 miles
quite a lot
been running wireless at about 5km
it wasn't very nice