still missing some files from my diskettes
gonna have to call the comau guys and plead :)
I do hope they dont give me that "but you dont have a service contract" crap, or I will be forced to go ape :)
* alex_joni falls asleep
maybe I mount a dremel on it and so some real neat carving :)
on the robot?
because you have a mill?
not full 6-axes mill he doesn't
at least I bet he doesn't :)
yeah, but this will do full 3D, 360x360
robin_sz: that's what I meant.. much more you can do with a bot than with a mill
the only problem is precision
they usually suck _big_ time
well that kind of limits it..
I guess they flex under load
tell it to go 1000mm from the current position in X, and you might see it can go 995 or so
with 0.2 repetition
I've seen 5-10mm precisions :D
well, thats down to tool tables I guess
and bent axes
and most likely boked kins
joint -> carthesian transforms
our bots have a calibration procedure
but trust me.. you don't want to do that
does it involve spirit levels?
I did it once (programmed points with very high precision)
about 1 full day of doing that.. it's very annoying
the cal for this bot involves spirit levels and some machined reference planes on various axes
oh, that's for the axis positions
way different thing :)
this (what I am talking about) is after you have done that
you need a level capable of 0.05mm in 1m
sounds like a religious thing to calibrate
im just going to line up the painted marks :)
if you find out that the kin conversion is not ok
robin_sz: that's usually enough (but I didn't say that)
it has some neat little vernier scales ...
had a customer who used it as a cutting CNC
im sure I can get close enough with those
in carthesian coordinates (not the way the bot is intended to work: teach-in)
had to calibrate it to get proper results
wouldn't wanna do it again
anyways.. best of luck with the comau people
* alex_joni is off to bed
lets hope they are in a xmas mood :)
either that, or I sell of 6 nice Siemens servos and gearboxes and get my money back :)
robot controlled by lamprey brain ( frankenstein!) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1043001.stm
is there a performance difference between the parport driver and mesa 5i20 driver?
from a theory standpoint, it would seem better to have a closed-loop system local to the machine, rather than just outputting pulses
also, the parallel port isn't optimized for speed, so perhaps there would be a higher IPM rating with 5i20?
also, I need to find or build an amplifier circuit. any recommendations for mosfets to drive my servos? they pull 13A at 70V.
tom_cnc: the mesa 5i20 doesn't yet have a stepper control firmware that works with emc
tom_cnc: once such a firmware is written, the advantage is that you can attain much higher step rates than with the parallel port
jepler: i'm using servo motors, and plan on retrofitting quadrature encoders onto the servos
tom_cnc: ok -- you mentioned "the parport driver" so I jumped to the conclusion it was steppers
tom_cnc: the advantage for counting quadrature is the same as for generating steps -- you can have a much higher quadrature rate with specialized hardware like 5i20 than with the parport
i've been reading about EMC for about 2 days, FWIW
tom_cnc: I don't have experience with the mesa card yet, but I'm planning to get one soon.
jepler: thanks for the confirmation. no documentation I've found has indicated that there's a difference between hardware drivers. a "hardware selection FAQ" would be great
tom_cnc: welcome to the emc community, we're happy to have you.
jepler: Mesa is located about 5 miles north of me, and I'd really like to use their board
jepler: this could be useful for troubleshooting or development if Mesa is interesting in checking out a working (or non-working) machine that's local to them
tom_cnc: if you want to do a homebrew servo driver, you should talk to <skunkworks> when he's around. He's been working on a PWM servo board based aruond some "irf" chip
I work with toy machines, nothing bigger than a sherline
jepler: thanks! any idea how many people are currently using the 5i20? i read that several developers were getting the board, are you one of them?
jepler: i'm retrofitting a Shizuoka mill with Bandit controls, a 7000 lb beast
tom_cnc: yes, I'm one of the developers who is getting a mesa board. it'll be a christmas present to myself :)
more because I'm interested in programming FPGAs, not because I need it for a machine
jepler: congrats! :)
here are some photos of <skunkwork>'s pwm servo driver: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/
I have to leave for a bit .. it's been nice to meet you
oh, one last thing -- with the m5i20 or the parport, emc closes the loop inside the PC, so one is no better than the other in terms of sensing following errors and the link
er, and the like
jepler: nice to meet you too, thanks for the feedback.
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-12-18.txt
tom_cnc1: have you looked at this? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Case_Studies
This is my project http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25929
crapahalic has probs becuz the hal file format has changed, where can i find old format described?
if i mangle a hal file, it will show some data and relations ( remove column header, and follow the parser's wishes a bit more )
worth studying for sure , but it talks of news & i need history :) ( what the format was before ...)
i can just use the current format & chg the code ( i was trying to massage the data doh! )
crapahalic? That was a working program?
* skunkworks just heard references to it
valarq's program :)
[13:27:01] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Crapahalic
crapahalic shows(showed, hopes to show) the loaded components, functions and relations, flowcharty-like
those must be old instructions -- nobody should be using "sudo" to run emc or halcmd anymore
right, stumbled over that, and the placement of files too... i should just update the src so it's as healthy as it was before discussing this a lot (as I dont understand it much yet)
yeah, crapahalic is basicly dead
sort of an intermediate version of halaluia
tomp: you shouldn't want to use that
I think jeff's haleluia was lots more advanced (even if also not finished)
hi alex, never heard of haleluia ( cute name, a hal of a name :)
[13:38:47] <skunkworks> http://axis.unpythonic.net/files/01161727709/hallelujah5.png
[13:39:12] <skunkworks> http://axis.unpythonic.net/01161727709
thanks , it seemed to be in 'area 51' ;)
I haven't touched that in months .. I had gotten to the "hard part" and sometimes I just give up when the project isn't fun anymore...
wow, nice stuff jepler!
jepler: thanks for updating your blog on the pluto.
i was looking at gstreamer editor when i remembered crapahalic http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/modules/gst-editor.html
jepler: maybe it would be nice if somebody would pursue that further
* skunkworks was in and out all weekend.
alex_joni: yeah -- unfortunately I never put the source anywhere
it's on a backup tape somewhere though
after a miss-start.. I have ubuntu duel booting on my xp machine. still have not worked on the wireless card.
and I have not run a latency test yet
has a gforce to go video card in it. no clue if it shares memory
do you want to run emc on it?
jepler: emc runs (loaded the live emc cd)
I really just wanted to be able to fiddle with emc easy
skunkworks: yes, I've looked at the cncforum where you described your project. If it works, it's exactly what I'd need for a m5i20-based retrofit for my mill
if it does run without any latencey issues - that is just icing on the cake
skunkworks: i looked at the eagle files, looks like they are a previous version and they don't have all the part numbers. any idea what your parts cost is for the board now?
skunkworks: (er, by "previous version", I mean that it looks like your last board rev, not a previous version of eagle)
hmm. also the part numbers are not correct. I had used the part numbers by package sizes not actual componants.
also there is no current limit yet.
so i noticed. :) Yes, and that's what fuses are for. :)
The guy that helped draw the board 'jmkasunich' had mentioned he could walk me through adding a nice current limit circuit.. The modual is like $28.
i have a current limiting circuit i'm using on another project, which checks for stall in a 15A pool pump motor. that could work here, too.
it's not a resistive power sensing circuit, you run the wire through the sensor and hook it up to an a/d chip
The mosfets I am using right now are FDH44N50 N - MOSFET transistors 500V / 44A
free wheeling diodes are RURG5060 Ultra Fast Diodes 600V 50A
irf2111 is the gate drivers and the bootstrap diodes are DIODE ULTRA FAST 1A 200V AXIAL
capasitors are .1uf and the opto isolators are TLP2530-ND
"eagle", grumble grumble...i made a couple of boards with eagle, found that i really disliked it. I've been using an old version of OrCad capture & layout, and they are so much more fun to use than eagle.
what is the big cap that you're using, that the whole board is soldered to?
skunkworks: sounds just like an edm power supply i use ( almost every component except IRF vs FDH ) where can i learn more?
I was also looking at using a servodynamics board (which someone else used off the linuxcnc.org links page): http://www.servodynamics.com/Manuals/Zircon.pdf
and, honestly, I'm also looking at using Mach3 instead of EMC2. I need to get this machine working in the next month for work,not just for hobby. i can hack circuits, code, and linux, but i also like to pick my battles, and i'd much rather a fucntioning machine than another project
mach3 claims thousands of users, emc links page has 1-2 dozen. hmm... i loathe windows & vb, but might start with a mach3 control system just to get it running, then switch to emc2 later.
I didn't know mach did closed loop
(thought it only did step and direction)
that'd give me some time to get this driver circuit working for emc, as well as give me access to all the mach3 wizards (which might come in handy occasionally).
you can use an external driver like http://www.geckodrive.com/product.cfm?pid=13
that takes step & direction, and put a PID loop on it
[14:14:52] <jepler> http://members.shaw.ca/swstuff/dspic-servo.html
that driver is $114 each, but only goes to 20A. my servos take up to 13A continuous, and max out at 45A or so (by the numbers)
if you think you'll end up building your own amp, I suspect the dspic-servo could be easily adapted to it. then you don't have a boxful of $114 translator/drivers that become junk once you have real closed loop control in the PC
jepler: true, but getting familiar with mach3 is good, even if I don't use it for most projects. it's best to know the competition so you know what you're missing
jepler: like the eternal linux/windows holy wars, both are useful, depending on the project. have you checked out the "wizards" that are offered under mach3? there's a lot of useful stuff there
gecko and the dspic do some form of step and direction.. I do not consider that closed loop.
it's closed loop (servo power + encoder + PID = closed loop), but just not on the machine running the cnc software.
* skunkworks doesn't like that
it would seem your approach is better, as more information is on the machien running the cnc software, but I don't know if it makes much difference
oh, what are you using as an interface board to your driver circuit? m5i20?
rignt now - printer port
I do have a mesa board coming and have a pluto fpga that I have not played with yet\
printer port outputs pwm to the drives and reads the encoder a/b signals
cool. that mesa "anything i/o" board seems pretty spiffy.
wow, printer port for encoder a/b signal seems like it'd be slow
(but I really don't know, this is all seat-of-the-pants for me)
it can count at the speed of your base period. (although you want some head room)
base periods are generally 10-50us depending on how fast the computer is.
if it works, that's proof enough for me. :)
there are atleast 3 people doing it this way right now - jepler, cradek and me.
jepler: i didnt know you were working on the et-8255 pci. They sent me the english translations of user_manual , vd & delphi code, you want?
tomp: I think I have all i need, but thanks for offering.
tomp: actually I have the driver written but not fully tested -- I will add it to the development version of emc2 soon
jepler: you got it? I have not recieved any thing yet. I emailed them again friday for an update.
skunkworks: for the card itself I only have the thai documentation, but I have english datasheets for the 8255 and for the pci interface chip
what I have to do next is make sure I got all the direction bits correct -- then I'll put it in CVS
jepler: i sent the translations anyway :)
(g. marx) no, thank you :)
tomp: do you have one of those cards?
i like lotsa i/o
same here ;)
have you used it yet? for anything?
i made it turn on 1 output bit ( shame shame )
i didnt have to mess with the 'tiger' pci bridge chip, it just sorta worked
tomp: the e-mail arrived -- thank you
gotta go, but will log today, i use local library as my work office... keeps me focused & away from refrigerator & internet :)
nice idea ;)
tomp steps away from the computer
see you tomp
03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/emc/task/emccanon.cc: backport units fix on motion tolerance
cradek: you didn't find any further problems there?
no, it looked fine
yay finally off work..
now to do a couple of more hours of code before I go home :D
jepler: install2:~chris/tri.py gives an interesting result
cradek: I had a look at python
cradek: it looks like a neat language
cradek: interesting good or interesting bad?
jepler: I think it's fine
I think that's what I expected when the number of segments was large
it's nice that there are not sharp corners - the resulting path is nicely blended because it uses the same tolerance
X and Y tuned up...getting about .0002 deviation on the X and .0003 on the Y...
wb9mjn: at what velocity?
Not exactly sure......
4 inches in about 2 seconds, stop and start...
so over 120ipm
So, peak is probably double that or 240, which is what its set to...
what's the accel setting?
Nice. (what is this machine again? bridgport or clone?)
This is a square column vocational ed machine...the tables are Lintech 150, that I bought off ebay...
The X and Y use the Lintech tables...
I remember now
They have .2 inch pitch ball screws, with direct drive of the encoder...
The X motor is also direct drive, and the Y motor has a 1:1 belt drive...
To offset the motor from the encoder mount, and so the motor does not stick out so far...
The original tables were total garbage, and the 1/4 inch ball screws were much too small....
The Lintech tables have 1/2 inch ball screws...The Z column is original for the machine, with a new double nut...
and its a 5/8 inch ball screw...
I want more accuracy, than steel hogging capability, so I got the lintech tables...
* anonimasu nods
The max vel is set to 10 in/sec on the X and Y axis, but the machine speed is set to default of 4 in/sec (240 in/min)...
Also, can do fast light cuts in the X and Y with the lintech tables...
it can't really go 10 can it?
for working on delicate stuff...
Do not know...that is just a setting to keep the tables from getting in the way of the machine...
Its pretty quick...but the travels are so short, it probably never reaches the speed...
You should see it do a pecking drill with a 1 inch forsterner bit into spruce...pretty scary !
Wood chips flying all over the room...
What are the units on Halscope ?
are they periods, or seconds on the horizontal ?
depends on the signal you're showing
the scales are on the screen - they change as you zoom
iirc the time per horizontal div is shown at the top of the screen near the middle
following error will be in machine units, inches for you
let go see what it does then...yea, saw the scales, just no units...
right, figured that out for the vertical....
by seeing how big a oscilation between the smallest steps...
wb9mjn: how are you liking emc2 now?
* skunkworks thinks jmk has christmas vacation.
skunkworks is correct
whenever someone says christmas my irc client highlights the chris part of it
whyever would it do that?
reminds me of "keep chris in christmas" haha
tom_cnc1: because that's my name - I told it to do that
so, if you rechrisen your machine, or if christy says hi, they all get hilights? http://www.morewords.com/contains/chris/
tom_cnc1: have any pictures of your machine?
With the axis speed set to 360 in/min, a 6 inch y axis move took 3.7 seconds, start to stop...deviation was about .0006 in...
wb9mjn: did you say it was a motech lite board?
about 100 in/min average...
skunkworks: nothing handy, here's a similar machine: http://www.centroidcnc.com/lowcostm39.htm
Its the motenc-100 board..one of the fist batch in 2004 ...
so it is pci?
wb9mjn: was that you getting insanely low servo thread times? and that was with emc1?
This is with the new EMC 2 install....
yes, that was me , I think, you were refering too...
that might be why my deviation is higher on this install....
That had a big effect on the following error...
probably more tweeking ;)
halved it, or better, if I remember right...
tom_cnc1: nice heavy machine :)
my old EMC .ini file says .000125 for the axis axis cycle times...
similar to EMC 2....
.0001 for EMC 2 ...
so its probably the lack of FF2 which is the difference...
wb9mjn: ff2 is in head
or is it in the latest release?
Yep...I ll wait ....
wb9mjn: we need someone to write up a servo tuning 101 wiki page... :)
Dave Engval has already done that, i think...
My method is just hack on it, and try to max out P, keeping things stable...then tune FF1 to minimize center dis-
continuity (accel/decel) and FF2 for slope ...
Professor Kuo is rolling over in his grave (if he is in his grave yet) !!!!
Could never get the hang of those root locus diagrams....
maxing P gives the most rigid axis....but you need the I to get the axis to settle on target, and the D for stability...
His writeup uses the old display, no the Halscope, though...just found it...
I just figured out the halscope on my own....based on the EMC2 hal tutorial (to get it started) ...
its pretty damn cool
Once EMC is running, you can open a second terminal, then change over to the /usr directory that the hal stuff is in..
would not work from the emc directory ...
as it says in the manual....so I did a search on hal, and found the halcmd and halscope ....
what are you using for the gui? tkemc, axis?
Then there was some triggering and scaleing stuff...but that is just experience using scopes over the year...
tkemc...because I am familiar with it, and had enough newstuff to figure out on the initial setup...
want to switch over to Axis, for the preview...that will be invaluable....
I think you can open halscope from the menu even on tkemc (don't quote me on that)
I thought only axis had the menu entry
skunkworks: the command line is the one true way!
ok - I thought I remember reading it in passing
jmkasunich: I was a dos person. ;)
opening another shell or two is always how I work with HAL
You should be right at home with the command line then, skunk....
Unless you meant "windows person" ...
jmkasunich: that is how I got your pwmgen working without the man ;)
tuning is just a matter of "halcmd setp pid.0.pgain 1000", jog it to see the response, "halcmd setp pid.0.pgain 1500", repeat, etc
no ini editing and such
hmm...will have to give that a try...
Does it set I,D, FF1 then automatically ?
no, that was just an example
I do setp pid.0.Igain, etc as well
that makes tuning much easier
when you dont have to restart emc..
the point I was making is that you don't need to mes with the ini and restart all the time
ok....I used the "calibration" script (tool?) ...
I have used the axis setup gui - works well also
you _do_ have to note the values at the end, and transfer them to the ini, or they'll be lost when you shut down emc
to trial the changes...
"halcmd show param pid" will print all the tuning params
I had to retunde the D to get it more stable without the FF2 ...
and there were small tweaks to FF1 ...
emc 2.1 will have ff2
The new "calibration" script had a "test" button, to take the experimental values, keeping the old ones on the screen
sounds like what I used on 'axis' when I was playing
they probably have the same script in the menu ....
anyway....back to the PID's here....
Oh...!!...I misread the scale on the 6 inch Y move...its 1.8 seconds start to stop...
So, thats 200 in/min average...
wb9mjn: if you add some ddt blocks to your hal config, you can read velocity and acceleration directly in halscope
I think the sim configurations have that setup
Ok...something for when I get it all tuned up....yea, the old system (which is broken in this release) had the velocity...
Gives an error message when you try to open up the logging script...
so it looks like I need to use ndiswrapper
FWIW, I threw the ubuntu dapper live dvd (not the emc one) in a laptop with a d-link card, and it came right up.
that was a thinkpad t-23, d-link dwl-650+ card
some (especially older) cards have good built-in support
the biggest problem is companies like d-link who have used the same dwl-650 model number for cards using every chipset under the sun over five years
so you can't go buy a card and know it will work
I found a web site somewhere with photos of the cards, photos of the boxes they came in, etc. -- you could sometimes tell because they change the artwork on the box when they change the chipsets
the other laptop, a lenovo 3000 N100 with i3945, is not working wireless yet - at least under ubuntu.
ipw3945 has open source drivers but they may not be integrated with ubuntu yet -- http://ipw3945.sourceforge.net/
it is dual boot between xp and ubuntu.
as far as I can tell it is a broadcom chipset. the exact I don't know yet
I'll chase that down, thanks. Found a few posts where folks have got it working, but have not been able to duplicate their success yet.
Have a Linux users group meeting on the 21st - may get it going then.
hmm - I wonder if there is a linux user group around here.
never thought of that
Probably a bunch of stuck up elitists ;)
or dorks with beards
stuck up dorks with beards
stuck up elitist dorks with beards
I'm still working on the dirty linux user goatee
tom_cnc1: even if we don't have thousands of users named on the webpage, emc is used by a couple thousand at least I think
@ ~ 3-4" right now
it's impossible for us to know the number of users.
cradek: right, that's just an estimate by heuristics
hundreds of people are subscribed to the mailing lists.
wow, what a silly naming convention: The 1.1.0 stable version (any version ending in .0 is 'stable') is available from Intel's Laptop Products page.
er, numbering convention
although we could add some kind of tool to report, it wouldn't be a "free" way of doingit
cradek: are you saying emc doesn't report back to the "mothership" when it's in use?
that kind of evil is best left to others who are better at it
maybe it could ... and copy the entire contents of your hard drive to a remote server ;)
(not saying they are better at it_
all your datas are belong to us
all we would need is the contents of the current run hal and ini files. that would be cool ;)
engrave an SASE with the users address, to be mailed back?
if we have a few people using the software for each one subscribed to the lists, we have low-thousands users
(but worrying about that is silly)
well I think I count as .5 users ;)
and I as a future user.
I count as .1 ATM ...
all emc can do right now is entertain the cat by spinning the motors on the table
cat vs. 150 oz/in stepper: cat 0 / stepper 1
does anyone have a good link on servo theory?
I count as 0.01 user, if you count machines ...
SWPadnos: how is it going?
are you in england?
just fine. how are you?
yep - just got back from London
how's it in good ol' england :)
err - back to my friend's office in Kent, not back home ;)
I was on the train for tea, so I'm having it now
get some milk with it :P
got that :P
* skunkworks had tea for breakfast :)
and toffees and shortbread
SWPadnos: is paypal of check the only options? for the group buy
I'm not sure yet
I haven't had the time to email Pete W to ask how they'd like to do it
when I spoke with sales, they said that they'd direct-ship, and could take separate CC numbers for the individual shipments
why not? it isn't like your in a different country or anything.
I would not have a problem giving you a cc number over the phone
but I considered that people may not want to email / IRC me their CC info, so I'm not sure how it'll end up being done
that's good to know :)
I think the group is still small enough that we can do it that way - we'll see on Wednesday or so, I think
buy a little something for your self ;)
(I'll be flying home all day tomorrow)
yep - 6 hours ;)
I'll probably be the only person to actually try out the 3-phase and stepper/servo drivers
heh - not 6 hours from here
we flew from chicago to london
I leave at 12:40 GMT, and arrive in Burlington at 9:20 EST (02:20 GMT the next day)
a nice 8 hour flight
I was supposed to go through Chicago, but the flight there was delayed 3-4 hoursdue to weather
hmmm - how is the weather there? :)
I guess I can check ORD myself :)
rainy here too
drizzly in London
though I didn't get wet
we're up to 11x 5i20, 1x 7i30-4, 5x 7i31, 8x 7i33, 10x 7i37
thats a lot of boards
I may add asecond 5i20, and also 1 each of the various motor drivers
lots of them :)
haven't totalled up the $ yet, but its gotta be close to $3k
yep. it was $2k before the email
they offered to take separate payments, so there shouldn't be a problem
I also have $40k or so available on a credit card :)
my only problem might be having the package arrive while we're visiting family the week after xmas
I suspect that won't happen unless you ask for FedEx 2-day
they're off the 25 and 26
we're leaving the 27th, returning the 2nd
I don't think they'll get the stuff out the door before Friday (since I was planning on ordering onThursday or Friday)
we could ask them to ship on a specific date, I think
or "not before / not after" ...
oh, you are talking about reshipping from your place? I thought Mesa was going to drop-ship?
duh, you are talking about drop shipping
I'm not shure how it will work out. Peter was the "25 price" guy, and sales was the "drop-ship OK" gal - I'm not positive yet that they're both ok :)
I doubt the shipping companies will be delivering on 1/1, so as long as it doesn't arrive on/before Friday 12/29 I'll be fine
ground from CA is probably 5 days
so as long as it doesn't ship before xmas I'll be ok
with the holiday back-ups, I suspect that's true
but if you order on the 20th and they ship on the 21st, the box is liable to spend some time sitting outside
we have a catsitter coming in, but I don't want to count on them seeing the package, esp. if the delivery guy drops it in an odd place
(which he sometimes does)
we'll see how it goes
right. I think Friday is the most likely, considering that we don't yet know how to pay
that should be safe then
I'm willing to pay them direct, pay you by CC (either paypal, or phone call with the number) or pay you by check
whatever is easiest for you and them
ok. it looks like most of the buyers are similarly flexible, so we ought to be all set
a lot of those folks got on the list on IRC, and I don't have emails for some of them (or street addresses, etc)
need to deal with that soon
everyone in the list I emailed to was from scanning my address book from user/devlist posts
I think jtr is the only one I'd have trouble attaching a real name and email address to
oh, and A-L-P-H-A
I know his name and probably his email
Loyd Leung or something like that?
jtregister at triad dot rr dot com
ok. can you email your address info to me at spadnos at sover dot net
or to jmk ;)
oh, everyone's here. 'lo all
if swp is going to be traveling, I can gather addresses and pester anyone who I don't have info for
SWPadnos: will email to both
hi - one sec
this is cool. http://httwww.kde-look.org/content/files/44218-linuxdistrotimeline-6.9.png
lots of stuff happening now :)
man... something kinda creepy happened last night.
friend's wife was flirting with me... it was odd...
she's really super cute too... which makes it worse!
wtf, was sco linux based on redhat?
bah, debian is better <flamesuit on>
I mentioned I was going to drive to boston... she walks over to me, hugs me, sits on my lap with her arms around my neck hugging me, and tells her husband, "he's my new best friend". wth??
so I invite them both down with me... but the husband can't go... and he tells her to go.
that is.... just wrong
when are you headed for Boston?
I accompanied her to the mall, and she had her arm around mine.
hmm, that could get nasty
I need to stop hanging around "her" for a little bit...
sounds like a good idea
okay... I don't mind breaking up a BF/GF... but when it's a husband and wife... I don't step over that line.
yes, I'm the bastard the steals your GF.
* Lerneaen_Hydra gasp!
A-L-P-H-A: Maybe she wants a three-some! LOL
somehow I doubt that it is you, seeing as how there is a geographical and age difference
2 guys and one girl?
that'd be nasty.
A-L-P-H-A: now you just say that you're ninja and it was you all along
I'm a super pro at pretending to be a ninja!
* Lerneaen_Hydra *must...resist...tentacle...joke...*
I did take Aikido for couple of years. :)
that's not a penis, that's a tentacle going into the mosaic.
* Lerneaen_Hydra pounces onto etla
well the 1kW motor just went for 106 eur on ebay
was it anyone from here ?
Anders sounds like a guy's name... you want to pounce on a guy?
etla has the same mill I'm possibly going to get
Lerneaen_Hydra: so you mean, you're mill bed buddies.
well, after all the mods and upgrades there are not many original parts on my BF20...
jepler: I just got the pci8255 cd in the mail. You have everything though - correct?
what did you think of the original mill?
it's a nice size though, you can disasemble and carry all the parts yourself, don't need a crane or something
what about stability?
L_H: wel.. dovetail ways and acme screws are not really ideal for cnc
use small diameter mills and take light cuts...
yeah, I was thinking large motors and preloaded nuts, and some backlash comp
what is small diameter?
and light cuts?
0.00001 micrometers. that's small.
something like 10mm endmill
that's not that small... I have 1/32 endmills.
and if you want some reasonable feedrate (100mm/min) then max 1-2mm deep in aluminium
100mm/min is not reasonable :/
it's bloody slow.
anonimasu: actually you gotta figure how many SFM you can do before the metal starts to melt, instead of cut.
A-L-P-H-A: 100mm/min is still damn slow..
10cm/min is slow.
with small bits the 3000rpm max spindle is quite limiting
I cut with 6mm endmills around 300mm/min..
that's where I aim..
0.076 per tooth..
what is your machine ?
toolroom sized mill..
he's got a bloody schuablin.
I want a schuablin mill... I already have a lathe from them.
etla: isit the machine stability or the motor power that limits the 10mm, 2mm cut at 100mm/min?
you machine feels cutting forces also..
newton's (some number) law. = and != reactions.
hmm... not = !=
it's probably the spindle motor power that is limiting
but =+ and =-?
how would you represent opposite in math?
etla: did you have the 650 or 800 watt model?
* anonimasu that explains why you are cutting slowly
it was a 650 W DC motor, but we burned it out
etla: oh.. :/ overloaded or just crappy?
probably the brushes of the DC motor were worn out
oh, I see
do you recall if they were replaceable?
and the control electronics card failed once, but we got a free replacement from the importer
but we did quite a lot of hours with the stock motor and gearbox
sometimes 4-6h runs...
it's not exactly what this price class machine is built for ;)
ok, all in all, do you think it's any good?
that's true ;)
what's a 1/2hp = in watts?
that's what I got. :(
[19:26:17] <anonimasu> http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&q=1%2F2+hp+to+watt&btnG=Google-s%C3%B6kning&meta=
(1/2) hp = 372.849936 watt
around 400 or soo
way too little
:( well... that sucks for me.
I think I may get a bigger mill... with a knee.
2hp is probably a good spindle size..
I have 5kw.. but I never ever use that much..
my lathe only has 350 watts or so.. too little :p
6mm endmills dosent like 20mm deep cuts ;)
well, my lathe is a jewellers lathe... so I don't need HIGH hp.
I just want speed.. as I mainly turn stuff that's less then 2"
my compact 5 is not really for production either
it's not good at much except for being free
well, I made it as a production runs... like 30 at a time.
and easy to retrofit
I was making car antennas for a while... :)
* Lerneaen_Hydra makes mental note: when jumping between vastly different IRC channels expect strange associations while adjusting to the new channel
this kinda thing... http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=vw+antenna
etla: do you find the mill to be good enough to use for milling if you don't bog it down too much?
wrt. accuracy and so on
argh. just remembered something else "that wife" does to me... she calls me "hun" and "dear"... :(
anonimasu: it's someone else's wife
not as nice :p
EXACTLY. which is wrong.
oh it's still nice
They need a divoirce or something.
I'd be happy for the attention
A-L-P-H-A: three some... I'm tellin ya!
A-L-P-H-A: I'm lying :D
Jymmmm: no problem if it was 2 girls, and me. but not 2 guys.
A-L-P-H-A: it probably qualifies if the husband is not around, but she's thinking of him :P
never been into the threesome thing... yeah, nice dream... but it would really screw up a relationship in the long run.
A-L-P-H-A: Ok, would you be so objectionable if she invited a girlfriend to join in then make it a four some?
Yeah, I thought you would change your mind! LOL
at least the ration is 1:1
yeah but why would you want to go where somene else has been 5 minutes before you?
A-L-P-H-A: Or it could be 3:1+1
that's kind of,disturbing..
The wife was so set on setting me up with her sister... but I found out the sister is 19! turning 20. I'd be 8 years older than her... the sister is way too young.
on that note. see you Wednesday :)
A-L-P-H-A: Just make it a family affair... Wife, Husband, Sister, Mom, Dad, etc ROTF
skunkworks: yep I think I have everything for the pci8255
Jymmmm: you're a sick puppy
A-L-P-H-A: Hey, it's not me that is getting hit on while the husband watches!
oh, right, like that
sometimes a direct english -> swedish translation adds certain elements that are not intended to be there ;)
wtf can't cute single women hit on me??
A-L-P-H-A: I feel you
anonimasu: let me guess, bleach 107?
Lerneaen_Hydra: that's TMI
< Lerneaen_Hydra> A-L-P-H-A: I feel you
DO NOT MISINTERPRET THAT
I read that as "I feel for you"
but I read it wrong.
I just assumed.
that just sounds wrong on so many levels
I hope I assumed correctly.
how is it supposed to be written
feel for you?
A-L-P-H-A: you're the one feeling
iirc you can say feel you too though
meh, what does it matter
Lerneaen_Hydra: no... "feel you" means touch you. "I feel for you" meaning I can relate to your pain.
hmm, I though "feel you" had two meanings, the first obvious one and the second feel for you type
if that's the biggest language-related confusion we've ever seen on this channel we're doing very well
must have got that mixed up though
cradek: maybe Lerneaen_Hydra want's to feel you too. :) hahaha
Lerneaen_Hydra: I've never heard "I feel you" used like that here either, you want to use the "for"
* Lerneaen_Hydra makes mental note
It's always been "I feel for you", as in "I feel your pain"
Apparently I've lived in borkland for too long
maybe he meant "I hear you"
might be different in britain, or the southern US, or new york, or whatever
I lived in the northwest before though (US)
that was a while ago though
what's an alternative to xterm, and gnome-terminal?
gnome-terminal is still borked. :(
what's wrong with it?
it's a problem with the video drivers.
it's a known problem... but no fixes.
I have that right here
lol.. just heard a nice expression
"bovine lactose" for milk :D
request 78 is CreateColormap
what's your color depth?
24bit I believe.
32? try 16 or 24
or follow those (really good) instructions to debug it
I only have 32 bpp, 16bpp, and 8bpp.
the error is BadValue (integer parameter out of range) in XCreateColormap
you're using the binary nvidia drivers?
found a solution
what happened to "known problem but no fixes"?
too late :p
[20:08:19] <cradek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=276354&highlight=gnome+terminal
first google hit has a suggested fix
[20:08:46] <cradek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=276354&highlight=gnome+terminal
[20:10:36] <A-L-P-H-A> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=285512&highlight=gnome+serial+105
that should have been "o" not "O"
how do I install a TTF font in linux?
found some articles.
anonimasu: death note is really starting to get good now, they've introduced the fake kira :)
could get interesting
the manga is better imo :)
I'm not much for manga though
I can imagine that it is though
usually they are better
*looking at python*
stop looking at my python.
like that's anything to see :D
random question: what does runout usually mean?
"Runout measured from the inside of the morse taper is now about 0.01 mm or less."
it's the throw..
like "kast" or wobble?
kast.. that is..
+- 0.01 or +-0.005?
or does it vary?
that means +- .005
on the _radius_ (the thing you measure with a dial indicator)
wouldn't wobble be an acceptable laymanisation?
not sure, wobble seems close but not quite the same
"kast" is what you say.. in swedish..
to me, wobble would mean the axes of rotation aren't parallel
I need to adjust my spindle.. seems like I've been pushing it :)
what's the term for not being perpendicular, so it moves like a spinning top does before it hits the edges?
Lerneaen_Hydra: wobble :-)
measured in degrees?
runout is perpendicular but offset
Lerneaen_Hydra: not sure, wobble isn't really a technical term I don't think
hm, python seems hard to start coding with :D
anonimasu: their online beginners tutorial is good
it seems like a neat _hack_ language..
cradek: any lathe time this weekend?
I worked on tuning Z some more after talking to jmk about it
I can get good transient response, good long jogs, and good following errors, just maybe not all at the same time
really? is that with the pluto?
well the results are really quite fine anyway (.005mm)
odd. having fun though right?
but I'm trying to actually figure out what I'm doing and understand the patterns
maybe .01mm on long fast moves
.0002-.0004" I don't see that as bad ;)
no, like I said, it's really fine
that's at 60ipm which seems pretty fast on such a machine
I bet ;)
actually with the pluto I could probably go faster - 60ipm was the design for software counting
so only the spindle encoder has issues?
yeah I need to get differential or schmitt-trigger buffers for it
it's probably just noise
what kind of output does the encoder have? is it 5vttl?
I could even just RC filter it and see if that's good enough.
that one has differential output, I'm only using the + side
and yes it's running on 5v, although it can take 12 or 24 I think
do you think some of it is just how much power you can put into the servos?
or just learning how to tune ;)
I'm not sure - I don't think my power supply dips at all, it's a very large switcher
but maybe it does. I've got a transformer I plan to use instead
old welders work great!
I have not had time to play with mine. I do have a 6kva transformer that should make some smoke ;)
good night all
* robin_sz is still not having his 'bot moving
did you call thoose guys?
the people at Comau, although helpful, declined to just email me over a copy of the software.
I did point out I didnt want an upgrade or anything, just another copy of what I already had
why didnt they allow you do to that?
due to media failure of the poxy floppy disk
they did offer to send an engineer, but its £60 an hour ... minimum 8 hours
have you tried several floppy drives?
and he'll bring whatever software I need etc etc etc ... which is a fair offer I guess
did you tell them you already know the problem, and need the software not a engineer..
and yes, I tried several drives :(
that's the correct term.
well, they are not set up really for small guys like me .. they deal with the automotive industry
cant you run that opensource linux thingie?
mmm ... its hard to find ... I think I need a different card in the controlelr for it
and it turns out ot be not exactly opne source
some sort of proprietary C library,
that someone has written some open source stuff to talk to
robin_sz: call a engineer and offer him £200 for a copy of the disk..
well, I'll try and "find" the software over christmas
and if not, then I'll have an engineer over here for the day and make sure I get my full 8hours
make him work until he almost dies..
well, I'll make sure I get a full days training out of him for sure
oh it's just 800eur..
yeah, if it includes adjustment and stuff.. too..
it'll make you money when it's working..
surely just emailing me the firmware wouldnt have been so hard. its only going in their bot isnt it? im mean its not like im going to install it in something I built out of soup cans and windscreen wiper motors
ah well ... failing that, I break it for the parts and sell the servos on eBay ..
well, "punish a engineer day"
should make more than what I paid for it .. and then buy a an ABB or a CLOOS
the guy I spoke to was pleasnat and helpful though .. but rules are rules. no mailing out backup copies of software :(
robin_sz: well, I guess you wont be buying a new comau right?
I've posted a few requests on USENET ;)
probably not ... it wasn't the best initial contact ive ever had ....
would they drop you a disk in the real mail?
"ove got one of your products, new, and due to a silly desing and faulty backup media, it needs a simple bit of help"
"give us £500 and we'll do something, not quite what you wanted, but hey, close"
don't think they would. no.
robin_sz: you should quote them about 4 new comau bots, and when you get the offer tell them their helpfullness made you look at ABB instead.
did you notice how helpful people are when you buy 10 of whatever they are making?
if it "cost" them anything, I could understand it ... they could have emailed what I wanted faster than the 2 phone calls I had to make
Hi All....we need hal scope to have a different background color....uses up too much toner...hi...
try viewing it on the screen instead :-)
Got all three PIDs tuned...
I did that, but wanted documentation as to the performance for future reference...
One neat thing, with the machine set to 240 in/min the X axis DAC output only peaks at 3 volts...plenty of umpf
Could go to 10 volts...
that's nice to know you have some power to spare
amps are set to a 3.6 gain, with voltage feedback for X and Y ...
So the voltage at the motor is getting up to 10.8 ...
Next thing is to put the old drive in another computer, and recover the programs et-cetera...
Maybe hook up some misting lube....
Its too open for flood cooling...
Need better lighting too...
The Z drive motor seems to be behaving itself, and not overheating....wonder if that problem has gone away with more
burnishing of the ways ....
free-er to slide, and find the target....also have the FF0 set on that axis, which helps get it closer to the target...
So, when it comes to rest, it does not try to overcome the stick/slip as hard, and the resting current is smaller....
Next Project --- Schablin 102 lathe---CNC cross slide that bolts into the t-slots...hi..
With Live tools...
wb9mjn: how do you like emc2?
Already have 2 hp servo spindle drive motor hooked to it...
EMC2 is quite good....setting up....not hard at all...
And the versatility allows one to avoid getting stuck....
Which was the problem with EMC....as only a few people could figure out how to get it to compile...
very flexable. and you don't have to edit source code ;)
Halscope is a very good....going to make the junior engineer at work drool....
When I send him a screen shot....
It truely is a motion control tool kit now...
swiss army knife of controls ;)
yep...that is what I was trying to say...
Only thing that would be any more revolutionary would be a HAL GUI...just like Lab-view...
But, hell, that is a multi-year project in itself...
in the works.. jepler started it
if he doesn't get bored with it.
With that, you could ship this out to sophmores in college and they would get through a project with it just fine...
Would be good prep for signals/systems, and then controls class...
[22:30:54] <skunkworks> http://axis.unpythonic.net/01161727709
Yep....need those colored lines though...those are the key to Labview...each color is a different variable type...
Integer, Float 8, Float 16, Boolean...all different colors...
got to run - bbl..
Can see it now....little servo Sherlines in a college lab....hi...whooooooeeeehhh (A student) buzzsssclunkkkk (c student)...hi hi...
I had managed to forget how much I dislike Dykem High Spot Blue.... now I remember :-(
mmm .. not heard of it ... its a low budget lesbian porn film right?
blue ink for fingers?
yeah, pretty mich
solvent based, with a solvent that rmeoves skin and bone first?
oil based, but the pigment is extremely strong
soap washes _most_ of it out, but even a little still leaves a stain
it wear off very quickly though
it will be gone by March, no problem
its not just the hands - its just a mess
I presume you have your trusty bearing scraper to hand?
blue the part, then scrape it - the scrapings have blue in them, etc, etc
hand scraping is an art
try gasoline, last place where they scraped everything, used gas to clean blue & red lead & german bluing off stuff
few can do it properly these days
I'm definintely not one of those who can do it properly
but I can wing it, where not much is needed
in this case, scraped top of dovetails flat to surface plate, then scraped angled faces so the slide would move with uniform drag over the whole length of the bed
hopefully its not moving in a nice arc
our bridgeport has nice scraped and chromed bedways
thats why you need 1 master flat thing when you scrape
gotta be 40 years old and still fine
or three flattish things
tomp: I have a surface plate (didn't enjoy lifting and flipping 85 lbs of granite to do the tops of the ways)
but I don't have a good straightedge for the dovetail faces
12x18x4 - big enough for the stuff I do
the dovetail on your slides are small
and try the gas, I was amazed how well it cleans, but beware of painted surfaces, takes the shine right off
I don't clean with gasoline
especially not in the house, 12 feet from the gas water heater
I have this citrus goo-gone stuff that works pretty well
titanium sure makes some nice ribbons.
not blue at all either.
well.. the stuff I turned with lathe tools aren't blue... the drill bit made some blue ribbons.
a brand new grinder, still uses scraped ways: http://www.kippo.or.jp/culture_e/takumi_e/artisans_e/b9_e.html
hm, python's actually pretty nice
Saw a scraping demo at Cabin Fever year before last - guy scraped in the ram and ways on a South Bend shaper.
He set the ram in place when he was done, a little push and it nearly slid out of the machine.
this was with no oil.
amazing how smooth it was.
nice! & 'flaking' is the pretty pattern laid down after it gets flat, real pretty, uniform oil dimples
that's what takes years to learn isnt it?
dont know. didnt get there yet :)
( hey old timer , you lived here all your life? Nope...... not yet)
They had a bed way set up that we could try our hand on. a couple of guys tried flaking - looked pretty good after the pros gave them some tips.
don't know if they would have kept the accuracy, though.
oops - getting called for dinner.
I'm impressed that John is doing that, Now I gotta try. I remember the tail stock would find a sticky spot.
I bet it's not a problem if you are really careful
anonimasu, isn't it time for bed for you?
about keeping accuracy, it's a huge bearing surface... huger than the new bearings tractors on rails. I think a good job lasts many years
(but keep it oiled , like drippy oily !)
I use something called glideway..
though I need to build a central lube system so I can autolube the ways..
anonimasu, did you bend over?
A-L-P-H-A: bend over?
A-L-P-H-A: for central lube?
we sell that kind of stuff at work..
though that's for grease, but the same stuff will work for oil :)
A-L-P-H-A: I just realized I need gearboxes for my servos/belt boxes
not enough torque or speed?
not enough torque..
or you just want variable?
make you should just go SLOWER.
spindle torque is greater then what my servos like..
seems like it pulls them out of position..
causing oscillation on heavy cuts..
make lighter cuts then.
you're a manual MILL retrofit remember?
you aren't a $250K CNC machine centre.
yeah, but still a 10mm deep cut isnt that brutal..
with a 10mm endmill..
10mm * 10mm * 100 mm/min = 10000 mm^3/min. That's quite abit of material removal. 10cm^3/min removal.
though depth dosent matter as much.. it occurs at lighter cuts also..
10 minutes, and you've milled out the equivalent of 1L of alu.
that is alot of material.
also, I cant tighten the ways up as much as I'd like to either.. and that's probably another thing that causes it..
micro servos.. :/
A-L-P-H-A: normall I'd take about 5mm cuts..
A-L-P-H-A: that's more reasonable right?
I do 1/8" passes with a 1/2"dia endmill.
the manual machine dosent have any trouble with 10mm deep cuts..
3.18mm deep passes with a 12.7mm dia endmill.
that's with a 1/2hp motor.
~380Watts (from earlier)
this is with a 5kw motor :)
anonimasu, you have to take in a lot of factors: material being cut, dia of endmill, feedrate, depth of cut, hp of motor.
A-L-P-H-A: though that's not the problem..
the problem is my small servos
and lack of gearing
You want to get a proper SFM, as that will determine your MAX rate. DOC (Depth of cut) there is a MAX, otherwise you're not cutting, but RIPPING the metal away.
A-L-P-H-A: it does the same even on light cuts..
SFM = max RPM.
Horse power determines your DOC.
feedrate is a factor of lots of things.
yeah that much I know..
okay... if you're gonna gear up your axis... that isn't a big deal.
I use XL gears myself.
easy to setup, and use.
* anonimasu has toothed belts and gears..
then you're set.
just need to machine gearboxes..
the issue is that I cant tighten the axes enough to keep the machine from vibrating..
and also, the lack of torque(servos) keeps the table trying to catch up..
probably cause you're OVER doing your machine... but I don't know your exact setup.
A-L-P-H-A: 1mm cuts with a 6mm endmill at 300mm/min is not overdoing it..
no, that shouldn't be overdoing it at all.
I can do that on my shitty chinese mill.
mind you the other mill(manual one) will take 10mm without a sound :)
with a shittier spindle..
A-L-P-H-A: I usually dont cut that deep but, when cutting stuff off it's really nice..
I have a bandsaw. :)
I do also..
it dosent make nice straight edges..
yeah it does.
not smooth, but straight.
not straight as if milled anyway..
A-L-P-H-A: it's pretty easy to determinate if something's not right when you have 2 of the same machines :)
hm, my servo reseller has a new product line
by "motor power company"
brought it to my computer
shredded duck, with vermicilli, in a soup stock, with some veggies
A-L-P-H-A: ofcourse problem isnt that simple, but if I set my gibs a bit tighter it goes away..
gibs/wahtever you call them..