good night alrx
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03petev 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/hal_motenc.c: -Modified encoder interface to conform to canonical standard.
congratulations mdynac, nice work on the wire edm!
well she is working, now i just have to fine tune it and add some i/o, like detecting a wire break....
edge find and hole center are kinda needed too, for edm
got a switch ( lever) that 'fingers' the wire path? Agies used a little ceramic finger that raised when the wire didnt hold it down.
i have a wire break detection circuit, just have to input it to a a hal pin.....
and get the motion to stop
a ceramic cylinder, maybe 1mm dia and 25mm long, held down by the wire as it fed thru the system, if wire breaks, a spring raised the cylinder, tripping a switch.
wire the swx to the hal pin
how do i register on this server, i am not an irc expert....
dunno, never registered
agie is quite the complex machine......
ron crook can show you
i really don't need the wire break setup, just need to figure out how to get emc2 to acknowledge it....
and yes Ron is THE man..... i see him most every week....
he's a good tech
so you want to stop or abort or pause?
on wire break
I dont know the correct hal pin but those things have been implemented in the user interfaces, so some signal must be available to you
well that depends on what emc does if i give it a stop, abort or pause.....
well what do you want it to do?
many options are available I think
it needs to stop but not reset or some crazy ting, just stop even in the middle of a gcode line, and then let me re-thread and continue on like nothing happened...
you can issue a pause, but that's not realtime (there will be a slight delay)
the other option is feedhold (or in your case you could set adaptive feed to 0)
feedhole and adaptive feed ARE realtime
now that could work....
it's just motion.feed-hold
actually the Andrew wire break circuit is external of the pdp8\a and it cuts off the generator, flushing and wire feed when it senses wire break, so the end result would be gap voltage = 0.....
so maybe i have my solution already....
do it in hdwr ( have it done in hdwr)
if you want to continue the program from the right place, you have to let emc know somehow to stop
gee, it is probably already done for me, if i get to the shop tomorrow i wil test it....
it must stop immeadiatly...
but not lose its location
like setp motion.feed-hold 1 ?
how long would it take for the gap voltage to go to 0 with the existing setup?
tomp: yes that will stop in realtime
(well machine constraints like acceleration will be obeyed)
couple nano secs
so it will stop as soon as it can while maintaining position
acceleration ? :-) wedm?
ok, it won't take long
your general purpose machine controller has acceleration whether you need it or not!
the accel is quite trivial in my app
so make the signal go 2 places, to the hdwr and to motion.feed-hold... so power is killed and it doesnt move off the spot
this is a completely different app for emc
hell the 10 v servo sig never goes above about 500 mils
yep I agree that's the ticket
is the servo signal very constant?
i am concerned with that voltage level....noise, etc
my x y table movement has been rock solid
can you just turn the amp gain down and scale up the dac output?
without the generator on....
maybe i should do that,
I guess you lose your "rapids" (haha) then
i tuned the copleys according to thier procedure, which works great, i might lose that tunig
in current mode? or in velocity?
i run them in velocity mode with tach feedback
i ask cuz i found that sometimes 2 controls ( emc and copley) both trying to maintain a velocity... is ... not good
so i sometimes put the amp in torque
and the control does velocity
well, er i haven't even touched the PID tuning of emc, P = 100 i = 0 d = 0 , the stock config....
torque is a bad name for it... it's really just a pure amp at that point ( tacho not needed)
no FF stuff either
the part looked nice, you a hockey fan? ( maple leafs :-)
no just a gcode file i hand edited to work in emc, i have about a dozen, but the hand editing is getting old.....
i need a CAD/CAM software that posts out to emc
for simple 2d lines and arcs?
not me, i still write code by hand
do you have autocad?
no , niether does most of my customers
the only thing I use is Autocad and REALIZE
they use Vector, Bobwire, suncad, mastercam, espiti
would work fine for your 2d wire stuff
doh! Chris wrote REALIZE, didnt you?
yeah guilty as charged
the real problem is it runs inside autocad
steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
this wil become a problem for the customers
they will not want to hand edit 1000's of lines of gcode
what's the closest post and how much stuff is wrong in it?
can you just fix the post?
i'd have to send you some samples
well you've been fixing it by hand - what do you fix? surely not every line and arc
that is up to the software company....
yes every line...
what's wrong with every line?
how can a G1 be wrong?
hey mdynac, I recently acquired an Seibu Eltee Ew-300e that may... be functional, but figure it will end up on EMC2 eventually, any chance of finding documentation instead of tracing all the wires?
the maple leaf was posted out to a sodick wire machine and i had to massage it to work in emc, every line, numbering for sure....however, emc wouls tell me what line was bad as i loaded it up....which helped...
is it a wire machine
hi mac, great news on your project, much more interesting than just making a solid state memory card for the PDP8 like we discussed at the workshop
hell steve, tracing wires is the story of my life!!!!!
yes, wire with taper ability
how much taper?
I would guess 1 inch offset on upper guides
okay, a true 4 axis machine....
yes, but somewhat strange, servos on XY and steppers on UV
strange but easy with emc2
<400 watt & < 1000 rpm = stepper ( last issue NASA tech briefs )
steve_stallings, that is not uncommon on old machines, Japax, Sodick etc, use servos xy and steppers u/v
wish my shop was built so I had a place set it up and play, has a proprietary TTL based mini inside, boot OS from paper tape, hold (hopefully) in battery backed RAM
sounds like most macines i work on steve
steve_stallings, we got a 32K memory board, all solid stae for the pdp8\a
I did get the tapes, manuals (no wiring diagrams) and a CPM based computer (Japanise no less) with a CAD/CAM system that has crude graphics, it even seems to run
steve toss it in the dumpster
variant of apt, yes
ah yes japt....LDMS
ndos? (the dos that bill sold japan, where he began his fortune )
not going into dumpster yet, it is the only part I have tested, and it worked
you wil learn to hate it....
all in due time, no doubt I will learn to hate pumps, filters, and chillers too
emc2 is your best bet in my opinion
yeah, we all hate them
does the Eltee have a manual generator?
at least this one was still intact and I got to disconnect the wiring between cabinets, instead of it being a hack job sitting on the loading dock
all electronics in 19" style rack, all Japanese as best I can tell
(like not computer controlled, but knob's & switches)
[04:21:17] <cradek> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290055393022
i had a guy ship me a machine where he just chopped all the cables between the cabinets....he did not realize that they plugged in....
i've had 'engineers' do that, and they KNEW they plugged in
but did they realize it was still powered up..... 8-)
cradek wow someone paid 500 bucks for that?, however it is "loaded".....
gee, its got 32K memory on board....
hang on gotta pop in some Big Audio Dynamite into my tube cd player.....
California Audio Labs Tempest....pure musical heaven....
cradek... REALIZE handles 2d output from Acad.... Qcad outputs DXF & DWG, so we need a list to python conversion of REALIZE
then all emc users have a post
yeah rewriting it with the python dxf-import package would not be too hard
(lots of silly insignioficant parenthesis)))
I don't know if qcad does 3d at all
steve_stallings, let me put out the sensors for your Eltee manual/schematics....
the thing is, I wrote it once, I'm not very interested in doing it again, and it works for me
i didn't even know they made a wire machine
and it's GPL so I can leave it to someone else...
ok, maybe i can remember some lisp, at least i can try to read it
eltee had partnership with seibu, seibu still popular at last jimtos show
machine is Japanese Seibu, thought I had pics, still looking
japan international machine tool show jimtos
well if the CAD/CAM software guys knew that emc2 was around, maybe they would post out to it.......
only if their customers raise a fuss
and pay money
or just a lot of "I'll buy it if ..." maybe
it can't be that hard....
you didnt say much about what you had to do, but a good macro editor can go a long way
well they post out to most other machines....someting has got to be close...what did you guys model it after?
I hear it's most like fanuc
tomp true, but i am talking about the real world, ie brain dead customers.....
i thought wedm guys were pretty clever :-)
not the new breed....
they want to just "click" and it works
well, for you, a good macro editor ;-)
and i dont know of one for linux ( except EMACS doh!)
well i have managed to avoid emacs, like the plague!!!! my dad is well versed though....ex Bell Labs MTS
nice, chicago has some wiz's... bell labs & fermi lab
well, you may need some analog halvcp widgets, and i got some gtk+2.0 range widgets now, that can be inputs or outputs
(i got) i just built the examples from the gtk+ tutorials...
Fernilab is awesome, i have customers over at Argonne Labs, they wire edm Zircalloy feul cells....tthat hole uranium, i have to wear a radation siut to work on the machine!!!!!!
they are spent feul rods that have somehow gone bad, so they edm them to find out why they failed...
maybe i can figger how they (range widgets) go into vcp_widgets.c
the edm process cuts the rods without distorting the Zircalloy
so they can examine them with an electron microscope
hey emc guys, do ya think you could get an edge find/ hole center function working?
there's already probing
what is probing, in a nutshell?
move in the specified direction until the switch (probe) triggers, then record that location
can it hole center?
I think there's a gcode program in the ngc spec that shows how to use this for hole center location
use the voltage drop for the switch
yopu can write a hole center using probe
tomp that is what i will input
[04:48:18] <cradek> http://www.isd.mel.nist.gov/personnel/kramer/pubs/RS274NGC_3.web/RS274NGC_33a.html#1013623
is the probe just a sensitive switch?
isnt it more like a hal input ( and we can put whatever trigger we want into it ) ?
yes it's a hal input just like everything else
how does one execute a probe function in emc?
read that url
in edm we position with a tiny potential on the tool ( wouldnt hurt a fly ) and when it dissappears, we know we just 'probed'
sounds perfect for a probe input
(we cut with large potential) so there are 2 modes of motion... cutting and positioning
just need a hal pin to turn on my wire and a small "probe" voltage
10volts 50mA, and an op
i already have the "edge find voltage" circuit, just need a ttl sig to fire it up....should be simple in hal
we may need to add an *output* from motion to say that a probe is in progress - I don't see that there
(I think that would be a simple change)
hey mdynac, did you see that petev checked in a fix for homing to index with motenc?
cradek not yet, is it in HEAD?
mdynac: yes, and I think it's completely untested :-)
cradek, i'll grab it right now, but i may have to wait till monday to test it....
the kramer text says "After successful probing, parameters 5061 to 5066" but in what measure ( abso, machine, G55 ??? )
tomp: good question, I would guess the active coordinates (the ones you used when you wrote the g38.2 command)
so, they displayed co-ordinate system
the displayed coord system
oh, it got late... nite all, congratulations again mac, lotsa people wanted that!
mdynac: the page cradek suggested has code for a hole center probe!
i already bookmarked it tom....
well monday is another edm test as i will attempt to cut some hardened steel .....so i am expecting the adaptive feedrate to be more of a factor then cutting aluminum......i should see much more gap voltage variation when cutting steel as opposed to aluminum....
well gotta go watch some history channel and doze off to sleep....nite all
steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
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I just joined up again so it would log while I'm asleep ;)
Ah, G'Night Then =)
good night ;)
Jymmmm is now known as Jymmmmmm
Jymmmmmm is now known as Jymmm
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-12-09.txt
that doesn't bode well
there was someone here
usually at this time there's no-one here
it's 12 here ;)
[10:47:05] <alex_joni> http://www.autof1.ro/index/VIDEO__TUNELUL_MORTII.html
alex_joni what does the caption say?
video tunnel of death
it's some tunnel in moskow where they have lots of crashes it seems
LOTS is an understatement
well.. it seems this is just a selection
We have a hwy here that was nicknamed "Blood Alley" for soemthing like 15+ years. There was even a HUGE billboard that said it too. When they finally put in a center concrete barricade, the death toll dropped significantly.
accidents were crossing over into oncoming traffic.
the billboard actuall had the death tool to date
wtf is up with those drivers
it would be nice to see what caused some of them to swerve so badly
the bus for instance
speed from what the caption says
* Lerneaen_Hydra pokes anon while he's not on guard
* anonimasu screams gah¤!#
not fair im still in zombie state :D
im pondering connecting my jogwheel
one or three?
I dont need three
it's more for zeroing, then actually machining stuff
I like having dedicated ones
much easier IMO
got a link to the wiki where to start reading?
yeah, but where?
Lerneaen_Hydra: here btw http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ElectricalDischargeMachining
Lerneaen_Hydra: though the surface finish seems bad
anonimasu: btw, www.pungkuk.com
anonimasu: how bad?
Lerneaen_Hydra: did you look?
at the bottom there's a image
anonimasu: I didn't see any images
havn't gotten there yet ;)
that looks really really nasty
I would have expected something better than that
[11:45:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra_> http://www.nso.edu/staff/dooling/tsunami/tsunami-hlmovie.mpg
that is fast
1 minute per frame
heh, I think of headcrab when I see that name
headcrab? that's even stranger
never played half-life?
hmm.. that was looong ago
[11:58:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headcrab
oh.. that little bugger
the fast ones are not nice, and the poison ones are a real pita
I only played HL1
oh, I see
HL2 is really cool
Lerneaen_Hydra_ is now known as Lerneaen_Hydra
got out of gaming sometimes after HL1
I occasionally play some DF with friends
once-twice / year tops
DF = delta force
we used to play it in college (8 people or more)
I haven't played much recently either
anonimasu: had all the requirements: no need for fancy 3D cards, TCP bridgeable (we used to tunnel to other faculties :), multiplayer, worked on ~600ish machines
hmm.. getting a new puter next week
parts or premade?
that's a good way to go
core 2 duo 6600 based
oh, not for emc then
what do you mean by preconfigured?
alex_joni: they are cheaper that way also
Lerneaen_Hydra: I chose what components should go in there
so something like parts, but it comes assembled
not for emc, although I don't see a reason why emc won't run on it ;)
mostly for CAD and 3D stuff
a 6600 isn't really used
nor is a dual core cpu
you should have got an amd x2 :p
was looking at one, but decided for the intel
I go for amd becuase they're the underdog atm
the x2 is dual core
and they're usually better
they = amd
the mobo still has a parport ;)
so it's still good for emc :D
* anonimasu yawns
soon done with cleaning
then I need to arrange cables.
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/ (configure rules.in): add reading the distro name, and including the distro specific extra files
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-6.06/etc/modprobe.d/emc2: Ubuntu 6.06 specific files
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-6.06/etc/udev/rules.d/emc2.rules: Ubuntu 6.06 specific files
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-6.06/usr/share/desktop-directories/cnc.directory: Ubuntu 6.06 specific files
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-6.06/usr/share/pixmaps/emc2icon.png: Ubuntu 6.06 specific files
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-6.06/usr/share/applications/ (emc2-doc.desktop emc2.desktop): Ubuntu 6.06 specific files
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-6.06/etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/cnc.menu: Ubuntu 6.06 specific files
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/.cvsignore: few more files to ignore
for great justice!
alex needs training in the ways of the internet
I just might ;)
care to enlighten me?
you have not learnt all of the text from zero wing yet! :p
(same game that had all your base)
[13:07:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us#Transcripts_and_translations
never played it
Kimitachi no kichi wa, subete CATS ga itadaita.
I've never played it either
so.. what about the "for great justice!" ?
it's the last line in the transcript
I saw that
of the english translation
it has a nice ring to it :p
it should have been "Hope for our future is in your hands. ZIG!!"
sokka nihongo ga wakarimasu
not nearly as amusing ;)
anonimasu: hmm, where's that come from? I can't place wakarimasu (understood/affirmative) anywhere...
Lerneaen_Hydra: just some random japanese..
hm, I hate cleaning
make an evil overlord robot to do that
alex_joni: got one for sale?
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/configure: allow for sim versions, include the additional files for distro specific debs
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-6.06/emc2.files: file list Ubuntu 6.06 specifics
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-5.10/usr/share/desktop-directories/cnc.directory: Ubuntu 5.10 specifics
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-5.10/etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/cnc.menu: Ubuntu 5.10 specifics
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-5.10/etc/modprobe.d/emc2: Ubuntu 5.10 specifics
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-5.10/etc/udev/rules.d/emc2.rules: Ubuntu 5.10 specifics
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-5.10/usr/share/applications/ (emc2-doc.desktop emc2.desktop): Ubuntu 5.10 specifics
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-5.10/usr/share/pixmaps/emc2icon.png: Ubuntu 5.10 specifics
03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/extras-Ubuntu-5.10/emc2.files: ubuntu 5.10 file list
03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/tests/limit3.0/ (expected test.hal): merge tests from HEAD
03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/tests/limit3.1/ (expected test.hal): merge tests from HEAD
03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/tests/limit3.2/ (expected test.hal): merge tests from HEAD
how's 2.1 testing coming?
it could use more testers
I don't know offhand of any serious problems
unless there's a major risk that my machine will go / into my table I could try it
it's unlikely but no-one guarantees anything
I like the bleeding-edge niceity of running head so I'll do that untill all the features I need are in testing :)
* anonimasu nods
head runs nicely
the v2_1_branch has nearly all the features in HEAD, but rather than adding new features we are only fixing bugs
standard procedure then
that seems really nice
I'm still waiting for feed in mm/rev to appear in head :p
so, really, v2_1_branch is less risky
* Lerneaen_Hydra cue patches gladly accepted line
the steppers in my machine are weak enough not to break anything
and I like to think I'm on the ball enough to estop if something happens
hm, I know im not :D
unless there are big movemnt..
I tend to put my face 3 cm from the action at all times and keep my hand on FO and estop
doing a 5 cm rapid back to zero.. ;)
g0 is only 600mm/min, so not too bad
hm my g0 is 2m/min right now
a bit faster
but im going to crank up the accels quite a bit
runing at 250 right now
250units/s^2 that is..
im kind of scared :D
I get 4.5m/s rapids on my etch-a-sketch :-P
jepler: nice :D
I'll have around 5m/min after I gear my machine down a bit
it doesn't take long to cross the screen, which is about 200mm wide
jepler: that's the reason Im capping it :D
luckily, if you damage it, you just have to buy a new one at the toy store
anonimasu: what's the travel on your machine
are the servos strong enough to kill it?
Lerneaen_Hydra: no -- the mechanism on the inside of the etch-a-sketch will slip before it breaks anything
it's all friction with nylon (?) wires on pulleys
[16:27:45] <anonimasu> http://www.anglo-swiss-tools.co.uk/Resources/SV13.JPG
oh, I see
5m/min sounds like plenty
that's half the speed I can do but I need torque..
* anonimasu nods
heh, the commercial mill I ran a bit before had a max speed of 24m/min
let's say 5000rpm *2
that's 10m/min with the current setup..
very very scary to g0 to z3 :|
and the motors are rated to 6500..
man my stomch is making so many strange noises today
but as I need a speed of 20000rpm to machine at 5m/min..
that's why you don't eat live animals larger than a dog
machine alu, with a sane chipload..
I dont need more then 5m/min for rapids :)
not on a mill that size
anonimasu: btw, how much are tooth-wheels and belts?
I cant remember..
how much backlash do they tend to give?
next to nothing or something that has to be accounted for?
next to nothing..
atleast for small sizes..
maybe I should gear my mill when I get it
cradek's servo lathe conversion uses toothed belts
I don't think he has enough backlash to worry about either
anonimasu: under 500kr for two "gears" and a belt?
Lerneaen_Hydra: I have no idea..
Lerneaen_Hydra: call www.aratron.se and ask them :)
I'm going to do that on monday
hm, I wonder when my geckos will arrive.
Hello everyone, how is it going?
^eugenics: it's going nicely
Lerneaen_Hydra: did you know that part holding is a hell?
anonimasu: Lerneaen_Hydra told me you are swedish?
that's right :)
Cool, what town?
Then you got lots of snow?
not that much
the weather's been warm :/
it's kind of shitty I were hoping for lots of snow and a cold winter so I could go downhill skiing some
I got a mosqito bite this nite :( (slighty warmer here)
maybe father xmas will bring some
anonimasu: part holding?
like vices and clamps?
typing your new name is difficult :p
four keypresses before I can tab-complete
make that three
change it :p
I see that my cat was typing gibberish again on irc
en till svensk? Ar du svensk ejholmgren?
my cat speaks swedish better than I do, if that says anything
invasion of the swedes!
but först, såme smörgåsbörd
my grandfather was 100% Norwegian and my grandmother was 100% Swedish tho
ejholmgren: and you are 100 persent living in?
I've heard there's a rule of thumb about how long you can touch a hot device and how hot it is. anybody know what the rule is?
hmm, I seem to recall 50degrees as maximum "indefinite", 60 as a few seconds, and 70 as very short times
"for each second you can stand to touch it, subtract Y degrees from B"
80+ burns instantly
(by burn I mean pain, not cauterized)
60 is hot to touch for longer times..
depends on the material
oh, add 10 to my values then
or well, it hurts to touch for a while..
Lerneaen_Hydra: we use that as measure for huydralic tanks..
if you can touch them and hold your hand there it's ok :D
jepler: what are you touching? an electronic component?
jmkasunich: the plastic of a TQFP chip
it's not cool, but I can hold my finger there for 20+ seconds
if its in an ordinary 25C room, and the chip is too hot to hold your fingers on for a while, something is almost certainly wrong
this is just an ordinary logic chip, right>?
not a pentium or something?
it's one of these FPGAs
20+ seconds seems reasonable
if you're trying to get the temperature to the nearest 10C you're gonna need something more accurate than a finger
I don't know what other tool I have...
do you really need to know the temperature accurately?
I mostly want to reassure myself it's not "too hot"
does it get hotter over time?
what you've described seem to be to be above average, but not "too hot"
IIRC most circuits are specced to 100 degrees t-junction temperature at least
is there a heatsink on it or just plastic?
steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
if there's no heatsink it should be ok
I've learned from the datasheets that by using a single supply (+3.3v logic and IO) he's operating outside the recommended logic supply for this chip
if there's a heatsink AND it's that warm, that's not as good
just a bare chip
oh, what's recomended?
it's within the Absolute Maximum -- but barely
CMOS logic heating tends to go as the square of the voltage, and proportional to the clock rate
that's almost doubled the power user
My rule of thumb is if it is a device not intended to accept a heatsink, then 20 seconds without discomfort, if designed with a heatsink, and it is present, then 10 seconds minimum without discomfort
like jmk said
this discussion is making me think the m5i20 is the right choice for me
devices designed for a heatsink typically have an internal heat spreader to minimize local hot spots
I like the m5i20 card itself, less so the interface accessories that go with it.
the breakout boards?
yes, 50 pin ribbons are clunky, breakouts could include more functionallity
well, the 50 pins are a standard - matches opto-22 stuff
at least it directly mates with Opto22 style boards
and given the potential ot send very fast signals thru those pins, having alternating signal/ground/signal/ground is kinda nice
jmkasunich: yeah the apparent poor design of these pluto boards is making me want to "step up" to something that is designed not to be absolutely as cheap as possible
the more I learn about this board, the clearer it seems that it's all very cheap
well, if it is fast stuff, it isn't going to be coming from an Opto22 interface
the m5i20 fpga has a 2.5V core, 3.3V I/O that is 5V tolerant
I'm trying to tell how they actually power the core
you can get a fair amount of power from the PCI bus
watts and watts of it
steve_stallings: I can envision one connector connected to an opto-22 board for random I/O, and another carrying medium frequency encoder and PWM signals
and the third carrying some kind of high speed serial stream (for instance to/from serial DACs and ADCs)
(this would be a custom FPGA config of course)
at least 25W (http://www.techfest.com/hardware/bus/pci.htm,
scroll down to "PRSNT" signal description)
jepler: but thats at 3.3V
5i20 photo is kind of small, but I think I see low dropout linear regulators for both 3.3 and 2.5 volts
I'm wondering if they regulated it down to 2.5
jmkasunich: I suppose they must have
steve_stallings: do you have a m5i20, or are you just interested in it?
there are several voltages present on the PCI connector .. I think the video cards use switching regulators and draw the most power from the 12V rail
they have a five-piece price of $159... jepler, SWPadnos, and I were considering a group buy
just interested, possibly willing to get one to play with, but real intention is external device with local smarts in addition to FPGA
I'm definitely in for one board in the next few weeks, plus probably a breakout board or two
sure, I would join a group purchase if one is in the works
even with re-shipping from the original buyer to the others it saves something like $30
possibly an encoder interface, let me look at cost/function
nice - each ribbon has a power pin, jumperable for 3.3 or 5V
400mA total for all three ribbons
btw, I agree that the 50 pin connectors for the _field wiring_ side of the breakout boards are just plain dumb
I guess "interface boards" is a better name, since they don't actually break anything out
yes, that was probably the "feature" that I liked least
screw terminal blocks are big and expensive, but necessary
OK, consider me commited to one 5i20, and also one 7i33 if it helps group get discount.
I think each product is discounted individually
so unless we all want the same interface boards, we'll probably only get the discount on the main boards
(but it doesn't hurt to ask, and we should when we order)
yes, that is why I said "if" on the 7i33, somewhat useful to me, but trying to help group with most likely needed interface
I'm getting one m5i20, and probably a 7i37
I'd only want the 5i20 itself
I'm doing steppers, so I don't need the 7i33
assumptions..... I shouldn't do that.....
Guys, i have an m5120 and 7i33 set up with a couple of isolator 7137 boards. they are pretty nice.
my long term goal is a drive for a large three phase servomotor that I scavanged
running yaskawa ac servo drives and motors.
for that I'll need 3 fast ADCs, three PWM channels, and a few bits of I/O - a custom interface board
Anders Wallin has a isolator board to attach to the 7i33.
and is working on a joystick board
joystick? how strange
well, maybe i'm loosing the memory, check it: http://www.anderswallin.net/2006/06/first-steps-with-brushless-servodrive-microchip-dspic-irf-irams
holy crap, an 1kW servomotor
Bo^Dick: I have one thats 4kW ;-)
after all, it doesn't look that big
jmkasunich: what's the max you've been driving? ;)
actually driving? zero ;-)
gotta take a badass power supply to support that servo motor
1kW is normal not that much, typical on modern milling machines in the "Bridgeport" class
jmkasunich: at work?
oh, at work... 800kW or so
not "servo" as such
just variable speed
what does the 1kW servo motor cost?
yea, I described some stepper drivers to JMK and he said they were smaller than the FET gate drivers he uses at work 8-)
this could be a seriously intresting project to deal with if its open source
i just wanna know what the motor costs
there were a bunch of them sold by an industrial surplus outfit last spring for less than $100 each
lots of folks with motors, no drives, spawned Ander' project and one other
fenn also had some iirc
well, since i'll never need anything near 1kW per motor, i'm never gonna pay 100$ each
strangely, I plan on running mine on an AB driver
an 1kW servo could drive a car almost
100$ is dead cheap
somehow I feel 1kW is not nearly enough for a car
unless it's made out of cardboard
yep, and they are nice sinusodial motors with good encoders
i didn't say 100$ was expensive for an 1kW servo motor, but hey, turning an xy-table with 1kW in each direction...
"overkill" is what it is
depends how big the xy table is
for most of the tables it's overkill
i wouldn't want to be near a machine where the tool is accidently run into the workpiece at high speed where the power of the motor is 1kW
Bo^Dick: usually those have all kinds of safety features
Bo^Dick: it sounds like you have never seen any truly industrial sized machines
Bo^Dick: where did you find 1kw servos? for $100?
thats not a "big" machine, its pretty much medium sized
yeah, my workshop is 5 squaremeters
that wouldn't even fit inside that place
I understand - thats about the size of my shop too
but we have all kinds of people here - hobby and industrial
the 4kW servo I have will _not_ be used for an axis - I'm going to use it for the lathe spindle
that makes more sense
[20:10:07] <jmkasunich> http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/PA280118.JPG
thats the motor
and I hope it is going to drive the spindle of a larger lathe than the one it is sitting on
actually that is the lathe I'm retrofitting
the existing motor is 3/4 HP (about 0.5kW), single phase, constant speed
with 16 steps of speed selected by V-belts and step pulleys
and you are fitting a 5HP servo to the spindle?
I want variable speed, but when you use a VFD to slow down a motor, you don't gain torque. (When you use belts or gears to slow down the speed, the torque goes up)
so instead I'm going to use an oversized motor
the only reason I'm doing this is because I got the motor for free - its rather wastefull of motor capacity
the Tim Allen approach .... 8-)
I guess with belts and pulleys, its not a bad plan
I figure I can turn the speed down by a factor of 5 or so and still have torque equivalent to the 3/4 HP with a 5:1 belt reduction
I'm probably gonna end up with two speeds of belt reduction (tooth belt)
I use varispeed on my lathe, with a VFD, but I have the luxury of a lever change gearbox ... so selecting an appropriate gear isnt the pain that a blet system is
one will give me 100-500 RPM, the other will give me 500-2500
random question: in a DC permanent magnet motor, what is the defining parameter for motor wear? current through the brushes?
"wear" as in wearing it out?
number of revs in its lifetime?
I imaging current has an affect, not sure how strong
or maybe voltage?
frequent reversals will certainly take a toll
as a point of comparison, the guys that retrofit Monarch 10EE lathes recommend keeping the two speed transmission while replacing the 5 HP DC variable speed with a 7.5 or 10 HP AC with VFD
oh, that's not an issue
this is strictly one direction
steve_stallings, dis you say 5HP DC?
thats on big DC motor
I have first hand knowledge of that - I once wanted to torture test a DC drive, but we didn't have a suitable dyne, so I hooked it to a 300HP motor sitting on a pallet, and had it go max accel to top speed, then max decel thru zero to top speed in reverse, and repeat forever
wore the brushes out in a couple months
yes, late model 10EEs were 5 HP, early ones were 3 HP, true DC motor with armature voltage and field weakening for speed control
really nice power train on those
but somewhat of a problem to maintain, especially the ones that used thyratrons to control the DC power
jmkasunich: do you know of a document/page that describes DC motor wear?
actually the thyratrons were no worse that the motor/generator ones, just more of a mystery to non-elecronic types
in hobby use, you'll probalby never wear out the brushes on a good servomotor
steve_stallings: except that some of the parts became unobtainium
this isn't for a mill/lathe
it's going to be used for propulsion
so more continous use
oh -- the bike
except for the custom Monarch transformers, the parts are still available, just expensive
continuous is still relative.... 1 hour a day? 2 maybe?
40 mins x 2 times a day minimum
probably similar to the load on a spindle motor
the big thyratrons are over $600 each new now
remember, industrial DC motors are made to run 24/7, grease the bearings and inspect the brushes few 6 months, replace brushes less than once a year
I was just reading a webpage the other day about I guy who had an electric motorcycle. he didn't say whether it was an DC brush motor or not, but he put 7000+ miles on it over several years with absolutely no motor maintainence
probably nothing I need to worry about
the brushes in the 10EE motors typically lasted a decade or more until the bearings wore out and then the brushes and commutator got trashed by the shaft wobble
just make sure you use a motor that has replacable brushes, and make sure replacements are available (don't use some obscure motor)
heh, that may be an issue, the brushes can probably be replaced, though it's a pita
I got the motor for $20 though, so I'll just ahve to find a new one
oh, can't you buy brush stock?
chunks of graphite to cut to the right shape?
can probably buy bigger brushes and cut them down
but it would be a pain in the rear, and very very messy
wires are enbedded in brushes, brushes are special graphite with copper or silver mixed in, buy oversize and sand down to fit
steve_stallings: that sounds doable
I wonder how machinable it is, I would think it's quite easy to work with
be sure to grind a curved surface to match commutator in the ends
if you let them wear too far and holders or enbedded wire hit commutator, damage may occur and you will need to true and gap the commutator
yeah, that's nasty
used to be common on car generators and starters, done at your local service station, now rare
you don't happen to know the parameter that affects wear of brushes?
current/voltage/other? (assuming unidirectional rotation)
not really, most of the stuff I have seen folks work on wasn't just worn, but trashed due to going past worn
assuming brushes are designed well and fitted properly, I would assume heat would be the killer, and that relates to current
according to some site current density (probably amps/mm^2) and surface speed (to a lesser degree) were the defining factors
arcing is very rough on brushes, but well functioning brush arc very little
motor design will be a major factor, there are winding and commutator designs that result in minimal arcing
cheap, high torque motors like hand drills are rough on brushes
yeah, this seemed to be more of a long-life motor (large and relatively heavy) unfortunately there aren't any specs of torque
[20:43:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://www.mamcomotors.com/PDFs/cp_datasheet.pdf
<-- just look at all the specs :/
that says ratings up to 1/4HP, I thought you said it was 1kW?
1/4HP is less than 200W
that was alex
190W or so
if you have a choice of battery voltages, choose higher voltage/lower current, heating of coils and brushes is related to current squared
yeah. luckily I got a 24V motor
IIRC brush voltage drop is around a volt or so?
depends on a huge number of factors, there is no rule of thumb
I would guess it is very design dependent
when you start thinking about a fancy machine its not hard to fill up 72 I/O pins
[21:03:21] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom
there's another interesting advantage you get when you use the M5I20
with a simple H-bridge drive and not much other hardware, you can do software load monitoring
and back off feedrates if you're loading the servos too much
well, you're directly controlling the PWM, which is proportional to (vel + current)
PWM duty cycle is proportional to motor voltage, not motor current
right, but you have an encoder telling you the speed, so you can get an estimate of current
assuming the motor resistance is reasonably high
since you have access in HAL to both the commanded and actual vels, you can do more than an external drive
and that you know the power supply voltage and the motor Kv and resistance accurately
you don't have to know the real units, only how to tune it
(only being a relative term ;) )
motor terminal voltage = power supply voltage * duty cycle - powersemiconductor drops
= I*R + (speed * Kv)
motor terminal voltage = velocity * Kt + I * motor resistance + dI/dT * inductance
ok - sure
you also know accel though
that's why you need an FPGA - I don't think you can monitor it fast enough in software
actually you might be able to ignore the di/dt * inductance term, not sure
I wouldn't use this method as a safety device, only something that can do something like the unstallable stepper thing
slow down if you're taxing the machine too much (servos or spindle geting too hot)
the big motors that I'm most familiar with have very low R, such that the power semiconductor drops in the drive might be as high as the I*R drop in the motor
even my smallish motors are 1 ohm or thereabouts
its more likely to work with smaller motors
smallish relative to what you work with, not necvessarily small for a milling machine
(which explains my knee jerk "it won't work" reaction - I'm too used to the big stuff)
a friend and I were discussing why he should switch from DeskCNC to EMC2, and we were brainstorming various safety and other features
dual encoders was one of them (redundancy to prevent runaway)
and then the speed reduction for spindle, which we extended to serovs as well
anyway - lots of stuff becomes feasible when you can accurately sample at 100 KHz or more
I have every intention of building my "spindle drive" for that big servomotor in the PC
I could probably stand to get a 7i37 or two, so we may be able to get a 5+ order of those as well
the "drive" will just be a three phase IGBT bridge, power supplies, current sensors, and some instantaneous overcurrent protection
everything else (full AC vector control) in software/HAL
actually, there's an interesting FPGA that has a 32-channel A/D in it, which could be very nice for motor controls
it's even +- 12V tolerant
I'm thinking of a serial A/D chip
MAX or AD something :)
something like this: http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,AD7888,00.html
it may be better to go for one that does simultaneous sampling (I don't see that that one does)
that one just popped into my mind, doing a more detailed search now
you can always do external synchronous track/holds though
at least two channels simultaneously, so you can get instantaneous V and I
actually, V is relatively unimportant
I want phases U and V currents simultaneously
(phase W can be calculated from that)
DC bus voltage is the only voltage I care about, and that doesn't change quickly
ah - right
looks like simultaneous sampling isn't a parameter on the analog devices search engine
AD7874 seems nice, no price listed tho
gah - no ">=" option
"at least 12 bits resolution"
not "exactly 12 bits"
AD7863 is a dual 14 bitter for $17
oops 7863 has parallel outputs
the 7874 is expensive as hell
how expensive is hell?
$40 and up
$48 singles, not stock, Digikey
another approach to simultaneous sampling: three AD7457 single 12 bitters, sharing clock and using three data lines
the 7457 is only $2.50 or so
although soldering would be a bitch - 8 pin SOT-23
nah - no problem at all
the AD7887 is $3.05 in a 8 pin SOIC, much more friendler
bga, now that's fun ^^
[21:30:02] <steve_stallings> http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ads7844.pdf
-- $6 and change
I bet the FPGA serial to parallel conversion would be simpler with three data lines and a 12 bit frame, than having multiple values on the same line
steve_stallings: nice $ per channel
ok - you can add "features" to the AD parameter matrix, then select "Simul Sample"
not simultaneous sampling, but I'm not sure how critical that is
AD7655 - 4 channel, simultaneous sampling, 1MSPS, $9.45
(according to AD, not DK)
$13-$16 at DK
so, IOW, there are multiple options in the sub $20 and even sub $10 range
5 or 3V logic, parallel or serial
seems that way
a single multi-channel ADC would save pins, but probably use a bit more internal FPGA logic
AD7655 has two S/H, was that enough?
hm isnt conversion speed most important?
I think two simultaneous is probably OK
two is enough (phase U and V current sampled together, then bus voltage sampled later)
anonimasu, no, getting the sample at the same time is important, as well as accuracy. speed is secondary (as long as it's fast enough)
anonimasu: sampling twice per PWM period is ideal, because you can average the two samples and eliminate much of the PWM frequency ripple
I suspect that there's no logic savings for using multiple chips - you end up needing multiple SPI ports instead of steering logic
who said anything about full blown spi ports
all you need is three 12 bit serial in parallel out shift registers, and a start conversion pulse
* jmkasunich glosses over many details
they don't need to be general purpose, but it's likely that some setup commands are needed to initialize the A/D, then you need to sample
the multi-channel ones will certainly need that
the 7887 seems to have a default mode that lets it work read only
even if I needed to write a config, I could write it to all three at once, on one pin
it looks like the 7655 can be entirely set up by config pins as well
that means one more shift register, loaded with a constant value
but they'd then share the same data bus ...
separate din and dout pins
SPI is meant to be shared anyway - if the clock rates are high enough, it won't matter
AD7655 is 48 pins, yuck
it would need a common clock, common CS, common Din, and three Douts
parallel bus, 12-bit, 4 inputs ...
SWPadnos: yeah speed is secondary as long as it's fast enough.. (dosent that sound like a self contradiction)
just about all of them are good for 100Ksps or more
well, we don't need excessive conversion speed, so even the "slow" ones are fine ;)
the highest I can imagine needing is 40Ksps (two per PWM period, with a 20KHz PWM)
actual PWM will more likely be in the 8-12KHz range
50 samples per second per channel should be sufficient
too noisy at 8-12 KHz, I suspect
methinks Steve S is assuming hardware for current limiting ;)
steve_stallings: we're talking about a three phase AC servo motor
50K samples per second..... 8-)
SWPadnos: how many 5i20's did you say you wanted? 1 or 2?
reminds me of this long phone call to Verizon Wireless, with the customer trying to explain the difference between "0.002 cents" and "0.002 dollars" ...
probably just one, I laready have one
I can take 2, if it makes the buy work though
so thats jmkasunich, jepler, SWPadnos and steve_stallings so far
I think I'll be using them in an upcoming robot project
I might actually buy two myself
well, let's shoot for 25 then ;)
Ray, cradek, Alex, matt S - who else can we cajole^Wconvince to by one (or two)?
petev - he likes hardware ;)
annual purchase agreement, I want one now, more later, can I get the 1K price?? 8-)
petev might already have one
I think he does - he's also ~10 miles from Mesa
hm, when emc starts to support robots i'll buy one ;)
steve_stallings: sure, just sign on the dotted line (for 1000)
anonimasu, what kind of robots?
SWPadnos: ones that look liek the ones alex sell..
dunno what they are called..
I'm planning on making a radial arm robot soon (possibly)
yeah that kind
SWPadnos: for a job, or just for fun?
pick and place for the mill..
but if emc cant run it building one is kind of useless :D
alex_joni: I don't think so, he'd have joined in this discussion if he was there ;-)
mesa has software you know ;)
their software is free/cheap with the cards
SWPadnos: When you said that, it IMMEDIATELY made me think of this -----> http://www.sawstop.com/
but it's a DLL and headers ...
oh yeah - saw that :)
no pun intended ;)
Well, actually it made me think of bloody saw and digits rolling around on the floor.
I should check out this updated mesa FPGA code and check it in
Everyone is watching the videos I see
err - evaluate then check in to CVS
interesting - they melt a wire to release the brake
sawstop is brutal :D
SWPadnos: how does that help me with a robot?
hey, lerman wants a 5i20 board, right?
a dll and stuff for talking to a card_
you can write software to control the motors ;)
heh.. trajecotry control_
Did lerman say that?
emc can do it, but for my application, I don't need cartesian space
we think lerman wants one ;)
SWPadnos: well, I can use a plc if that's the case..
SWPadnos: that's pretty much as useful :)
we're talking about a group buy to get the $40 off five piece price
cheap - only $159 :)
anonimasu, I like cylindrical coordinates - don't you?
* anonimasu has no idea how that works
Z = height, r = extension from centerline, and theta is angle of the arm
[21:56:41] <anonimasu> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CylindricalCoordinates.html
(on a horixontal plane)
err - horizontal
and precisely what I want
a robot to grab stuff from one slot, and move it to another slot, very accurately
I dunno how you program robots really
about the same with me..
I'd use C or something, probably
and I was thinking of using HAL as the driver level
* anonimasu nods
that's a good idea
any good suggestions for pizza toppings?
I've done this recently... pepperoni, mushroom, chicken, no tomatoe sauce but bbq. another:
spinach, chicken, feta
mushrooms, black olives, sausage, pepperoni, onions, green peppers, and spinach
mushroom, bacon, pepperoni, bbq sauce.
pineapple, ham, almonds, and cinnamon
in addition to the sauce and cheese, of course
almonds and cinnomon??
jmkasunich, yeah... that sounds yummy. I'm pretty sure they dont' have it though.
I need more healthy...
but I want sweet...
hmmmmmmmmmmm. no bacon. :(
chicken, onions, feta, bbq sauce.
OT - anyone here use Asterisk software for VOIP PABX?
steve_stallings, yeah... robin__sz
I think he does at least. I know asterisks and voip...
curious how well off-site extensions work over public internet connection?
decided... chicken, red onions, feta, bbq suace.
alfredo sauce for pizza - that would be good
alfredo sauce... too creamy...
the cheese this place uses is creamy enough.
GOOD quality cheese they use.
making me hungry!
dang, I was going to be good and cook in tonight, now got pizza on the brain!
I hate francised pizza.
littel ceasers, dominos, pizza pizza, pizza hut, 241 (some are CDN only)
they taste like crap to me... while this local place is uber.
we just got a Zpizza nearby, surprisingly good, not your usual meat and cheese place
owned by two italian bros. On kinda reminds me of a skinny Mario (from Nintendo)
I suggest everyone go order a pizza... help the economy... insert like $10 into the economy.
I just ate, thanks
SWPadnos, eat again. :)
you're a growing boy... albeit sideways. ;)
obviously you've never met me :)
I've seen pictures, you're a skinny guy
I weigh ~10-15 pounds than I did in high school (20_ years ago)
it should hit me soon ;)
more or less?
oh yeah - more ;)
although less than 20 years
I weigh 30 lbs more than I did from highschool.
well, maybe you should have thin crust pizza ;)
albeit I was 120# when I left highschool.
I gained like 25lbs since I left university. :(
I'm in my height/weight range... but still.
ah - that is a problem. I probably should count the pounds of muscle I gained in the military, but I don't (I geined 10 pounds in basic - from 145 to 155, then another 10 in advanced training, and now I'm another 10 heavier, at 175-ish)
5'6", ~155lbs. not much of a gut though. Size 30 pants fit well... depending on cut, I'm a size 28-30.
SWPadnos? you were a grunt?
that's kinda cool... did they brainwash you into thinking what they want you to think at the time?
Are you a vet of any wars?
not a grunt, a fire control systems repairer :)
(ie, targeting systems, not things to put out fires)
so. no shooting random iraqi civilians...
no, when the tanks work, they're very accurate
or laser target designators, or laser rangefinders, or IR sights, etc.
gotta go pick up the food.
muahaha. suckers... you can all smell my pizza when I get back.
haha. cnn has a commercial for rogain foam.
for the longest time, I had no idea what Rogaine was for - they never told you in the commercials
"ask your doctor about Rogaine" - is that for ingrown toenails?
how about jock itch?
ciao... gotta pickup foodage
SWPadnos: Ask youe doctor for a free sample of valtrex
do you need it for a bomb or something>
SWPadnos, no YOu needed
oh - rigth
err - rigth
anyone wants a typewriter? ;)
[22:46:40] <alex_joni> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220056984879&rd=1&rd=1
only if it's an enigma machine =)
but how would you know?
it's in code
fpga based enigma machine
SWPadnos: By the quantity of commas in the price tag
I'd say at least two commas
[22:50:45] <alex_joni> http://188.8.131.52/search?q=cache:erlKfBPzaNgJ:www.majordickwinters.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D80303%26sid%3D84213d1fdd5e391816ea7e567df66ddf+enigma+machien+ebay&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=opera
unless you're in Europe, in which case two decimals
$70K USD I guess I put too much significance into the roll it played.
too many commas ;)
damn pizza is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo damn good
* alex_joni had pizza hut today
pizza from pizza hut..
that's just dough with oil
Pizzeria Uno - there's some grease for you
no, it was quite good
I had Supreme on thin n' crusty
actually, Uno has "Pizza Skins" - pizza crust with mashed potatoes, bacon, and cheese filling
I just had a really good avocado on a bagel with pepper
well, that sounds ... good?
I love avocados
yeah -they're yummy
I like the bagel :)
hard to find good ones, but it's such a nice surprise when you get one that's perfect
got to move to Hawai'i
cradek: BLAC Sandwich.... Bacon, Lettuce, Avacado, Cheese
-bacon, for the vegetarians in the crowd ;)
Jymmm: on toast or not?
SWPadnos you are FAR from vegan!
"Bagel, Lettuce, Avocado, Cheese"
I certainly am, that's true
cradek: a lil mayo, and your favorite bread
* SWPadnos looks forward to house of prime rib in on ly 4 months
cradek and soem garlic salt if you choose
avocado, lettuce, tomato, raw onion, mayonnaise
just slices of garlic would be better
cradek nice sliced sourdough lightly taosted isn't too shabby
or forget all that and just eat the avocado
cradek the bacon and cheddar compliment it very well
* alex_joni gets hungry
* Jymmm LUSTS avacados
cradek: it's 1am .. perfect time for a snack
ok - remind me to not call you when I'm in San Jose ;)
although if I eat after 12 I might get bad :/
SWPadnos why, you bringing a case of em?
heh - no, I'm just not sure I want to see you in lust for anything
lol @ SWPadnos
cradek: seen gremlins?
long time ago, partly
yeah, long time ago
oops - thought that was me :)
SWPadnos: Nah, I just eat em all in the house. My gf knows if she doens't get her share, there won't be any.
like me with the prime rib ...
But heed these three warnings: Don't ever get him wet. Keep him away from bright light. And the most important thing, the one thing you must never forget: no matter how much he cries, no matter how much he begs . . . never, never feed him after midnight.
I always wondered how that works
I mean.. what timezone they are in :D
it's always after (and before, and equal to) midnight ...
11:30 != midnight =)
Jymmm: it might be in india
ok mozzila mailstore is still good old fashion text!
it's always exactly halfway between dusk and dawn somewhere ;)
I always wondered that about gremlins too
even ignoring the timezone problem, it's always "after midnight"
and "before midnight"
this was 1984.. so they might have an excuse
I know I had one.. I was 4 by the time ;)
but we all know that DST was proposed in the late 1700's (by Ben Franklin)
so they knew about time a well before 1984
steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging