lots of people in here ... weird.
do you know how to set up emc
for the pins
depends on what kind of problems you are having
you running steppers? or something more complicated?
iam not but this is the 1st time running emc and i have a xylotex board and steppers
so you need to swap the step and direction pins?
if i edit xyylotex hal will it run
you don't need to edit xylotex.hal
which configuration are you using?
(you should have copied one of the sample configs to your own directory so you can edit it for your machine)
I dont know
ok, what have you done so far?
what operating system? ubuntu? or something else
well it came together with ubuntu
so on your applications menu you have an entry labeled CNC, right?
and under that are two choices, EMC2 and EMC2 users manual
are you comfortable with linux and the command line, or are you more comfortable with a windows way of doing things?
1st time on linux
i did find the ini files
what directory are they in?
need to look
ok, those are the samples that are provided with the program
we want to copy one of them over to your personal directory so you can customize it for your machine
the linux version of windows explorer is the file browser
when you first start it it should show your home directory
there might be an emc2 directory in there already
no i have no file brower just terinal text editor and menu editor
something tells me you are using ubuntu 6,06 and I'm using 5.10
so my menus and such aren't exactly the same as yours
how did you find the config files in /etc/emc2? did you use a file browser of some kind to do that?
ok, start that browser again - it might not be in Applications->Accessories->File Browser, but wherever you found it is fine
give me one sec to find it
ok I found it
ok, the browser is showing you your home directory now?
i found the etc in file brower and there is a emc2 directory
ok, click on the emc2 directory
is there a "configs" directory inside it?
not inside emc2?
i click on emc directory and found sammple cconf and rtap.conf
emc or emc2?
this is nice... http://www.garyscottusa.com/products/the_sammy.html
instead of Ti... I may do it outta stainless.
flyboy: I don't think you are inside your home directory
I'm trying to figure out how to describe this when I can't see your screen ;-(
double click on "sample-configs"
lot of directorys
right under the bar with "back forward up stop, etc buttons on it, it probalby says "etc emc2 sample-configs", right?
(above the list of directories)
right-click on "stepper"
and when the menu comes up, click on copy
now click on the home icon in the bar that has back, forward, etc
ok how far back
the spot that used to say "etc emc2 sample-configs" should now say "Home"
there is probalby a Desktop directory in the list now, and a few others
is there an emc2?
no just desktop and i click on that and nothing
but the bar says Home, and there is Desktop in the list?
ok, we need to create an emc2 directory
wait i did find home
I would pay money to be able to see your screen right now - words are a horrible way to see what a GUI is doing
ok what directory should i create a folder
you want to create a folder called emc2
in what directory desktop
in your home directory (the directory that _contains_ desktop)
so when you look at your home directory, the list should have "Desktop" and "emc2"
I'm used to seeing a lot more, but if you have a brand new system that might be all thats there
once you have emc2, open that directory
(it will be empty, since you just created it)
ok when i go to file to creata a folder it is not lit up to click on it
can we do this another way?
wait got it
ok made a directory emc
it was supposed to be emc2
ok i will change it
you can change it thought, right click on it, and rename
ok, go into the emc2 directory
(double click on it, probably)
its empty, right?
make a new directory there called configs
(same way you made emc2)
go into that one
click "edit" in the browser main menu bar, then "paste"
you should see a directory called "stepper"
go into that directory
there will be a number of files
are you in the USA or elsewhere? (do you like inches or mm? ;-)
ok, right click on stepper_inch.ini
one of the choices should be "open with text editor"
scroll down to line 120
(I think the editor shows the line numbers in the bottom bar)
nope no line no
drat, must be a different editor
ok, just scroll down reading the section headings
Wish I had tuned into this conversation earlier, I will need to do this too once all the hardware and electronics gets here and I am still confized over the "ini files"...
you are looking for:
# Hardware Abstraction Layer section
I think all of this is in the manual
down a few more lines you will see:
I'm still wading through hal :-).
#HALFILE = xylotex_pinout.hal
HALFILE = standard_pinout.hal
flyboy: found those lines?
erase the "#" in front of the first one
and add a "#" in front of the second one
click the save button to save that change
there are several more things you'll need to adjust
do you know the scaling information? how many steps per rev your motors/drives are, how many revs per inch your leadscrews are, etc?
no i forgot the leadscrew tpi
most motors are 200 full steps per rev, and I think the Xylotex drive does 8x microstepping, so that is _probably_ 1600 steps per rev
(I think theres a jumper on the xylotex board for that - read the xylotex manual)
what kind of machine do you have?
i know the motors are 200
does it have handwheels, or is it CNC only?
cnc only now
you took off the wheels?
they still handy? the scale on the wheel probably tells you how many inches one turn is
scalle has 62.5 one turn
ok, that means 16 turns per inch
you'll need to figure out if the Xylotex is set up for microstepping
i set it up for micro stepping when i ran mach3
I think it is when then ship it, but I don't remember for sure (I have a xylotex here, but I've had if for a couple years, don't remember if it was set at 8x when I got it, or if I change the setting)
ok, so you know its at 8x?
200 steps per rev times 8x microstepping = 1600 steps/rev
ok i will take your word for it
1600 steps/rev * 16 revs/inch = 25,600 counts per inch
don't take my word for it - get out a calculator! ;-)
200 times 8 = 1600
and 1600 times 16 = 25600
so the scaling number you need is 25600
ok where do i enter that
so, back to stepper_inch.ini (still open in the editor?)
scroll down till you find [AXIS_0]
then down another few lines to INPUT_SCALE = 4000 0
change the 4000 to 25600
at this point we have no idea how fast your machine will run, so we won't mess with velocities or accels yet
scroll down some more, to [AXIS_1]
again there is INPUT_SCALE = 4000 0
change it to 25600
and again for [AXIS_2]
(does your Z axis have the same scaling, or is the leadscrew different for Z?)
yes same leadscrew
no not the z
it has4.923077 turns per inch
4.923077 turns per inch, times 1600 steps per turn = 7876.9232 steps per inch
so for [AXIS_2], you want "INPUT_SCALE = 7876.9232 0"
ok, back up to the top of the file
there is a heading "Sections for display options"
#+ Name of display program, e.g., xemc
# DISPLAY = axis
# DISPLAY = usrmot
# DISPLAY = mini
DISPLAY = tkemc
yes iam thinking about axis
remove the # in front of "DISPLAY = axis"
and add a # in front of DISPLAY = tkemc
(# means "ignore this line")
so the one with no # is the one that is used
save the file
ok, go to the main applications menu (botton left of screen)
you should get a list
one of the first entries will be "/home/(your user name)/emc2/configs
under that will be "stepper"
and under that "stepper_inch" and "stepper_mm"
click on stepper_inch
then click OK
did axis come up?
i did click on stepper_in but where do i click ok
stepper in just opens
you are looking at a screen with a penguin on the left, a list in the middle, and "OK" and "Cancel" on the bottom right?
exit out of whatever you are looking at
go to the main applications menu on the bottom left of the screen
(the "Start" menu on windoze)
if you click that, you should see "Accessories", "CNC", and a number of others, right?
app are top left
app places system
I guess thats a configuration thing, mine are on the bottom
so I led you astray
that ok you been great
now do you have the penguin (with a hammer)?
ok, now you should see /home/(your user name)/emc2/configs
under that "stepper"
under that "stepper_inch" and "stepper_mm"
ok axis came up
see the red X button under "File"?
ok are the pin ok so i can hook up
click it so it pops out (that takes the machine out of estop
then the one next to it, dull red and square
click it so it pops in
that is machine on
the manual control tab should be showing
the jog speed slider down near the bottom is probably very low
raise it to 5-10 inches a minute
then hit the + or - buttons right under the axis near the top of the manual control tab
that should move the machine if everything is working
the numbers inthe black window should change, and the machine should move
well i dont have it hook up as i did not know if the pins where ok
if you have the standard xylotex 3 axis board and cable, the pins should be all set
ok iam going into the shop and hook it up thanks you very much for your help
you are welcome
what cnc do you have what kind of mill
to be honest, I don't have my machine CNC'd yet
I spend too much time working on EMC software and not enough building my machine
do you have cad software
would you like some
strictly a crank-turner machinist right now
i did that for 15 years
oh, I have CAD (easycad) but not CAM
i have mastercam but iam still learning
This nickname is owned by someone else
If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
* A-L-P-H-A pokes K`zan in the eye
[07:28:31] <fenn> http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7033406.pdf
any obvious flaws in this that i'm missing?
I just ordered belts for the machine :)
spindle that is
5kw belt :)
I'm trying to figure out NTFS r/w mounting in linux
"mount -rw -tntfs"
that's with what?
I think you need ntfstools or something like that to go
I'm using ntfsmount atm.
fot mountingnever used that..
though mount just redirects there I thnik
I'll try agian
it now only works with su
how can I use nautilus with this?
I just want to delete files atm.
you need to add uid=1000
don't want to right anything to the ntfs drive.. just read/delete (which is write)
how's the command go then? mount -rw -tntfs /dev/hda1 /media/windows/
mount -rw -tntfs /dev/hda1 /media/windows/ -o uid=1000
it looks like it worked. :D
so anonimasu, what's up?
I just got to work
trying to get the laptop installed
Is there an app out there for linux to test my hard drive read/write speeds?
anonimasu: " mount -rw -tntfs /dev/hda1 /media/windows/ -o uid=1000 " doesn't seem to allow me to delete files.
hm, are you root when doing it?
I'm in a "sudo -i" window
I have access to everything
tells me it's a readonly disc
A-L-P-H-A: it might be that the ntfs driver doesn't want to mount RW
tried this now. "ntfsmount /dev/hda1 /media/windows -o umask=0007,uid=1000"
just giving me generic errors.
"generic error" is the error message.
I can do it in a shell
I can delete stuff in a shell, just not in nautilus
that's probably because of the umask
or use umask=0777
* anonimasu nods
okay, un mounted, remounted with that umask.
hmm... not fun.
I wonder if I've somehow corrupted the partition now.
really scary stuff
brb... going to reboot into windows.
I think I may know why
I have junctions (directory links)
* alex_joni yawns
* anonimasu yawns
I just found a bug
why do you keep doing that? ;)
it's the first bug in 4 months
[11:59:24] <anonimasu> http://eds.dyndns.org:81/~rifraf/images/spider3.jpg
now that's another kind of bug.
with lots of little buglets, it looks like
* anonimasu nods
now if my belts and stuff would arrive :)
anonimasu: black belt?
to kick the spider?
we are delivering one of the tree thingies next monday I think
and I'm workign on some gui changes
* alex_joni hates doing that
changing something before shipping
oh, this are minor ones..
* anonimasu is adding a secret menu with the parameters that users shouldnt twerak
calibration parameters and stuff
I didn't let the smoke out of it - suprisingly
you didn't try to put 40A through those wires, did you? ;)
why is it on sideways?
actually - the current carrying wires where #12.
I had cut up a heatsink to do a worst case
SWPadnos: only 20A if I read the logs right :)
~23, in my view ;)
thats as high as I can go. jmkasunich was right as usual :)
I like that top red connection :D
this is scary: http://www.mcwhorterpestcontrol.com/photos/image001.jpg
err - yeah
I'm glad I'm not inthe national guard any more
I have a bunch of these heat sinks I think I am going to mill http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/DSC_2107.JPG
is that channel not wide enough to put the transistor in (without milling)?
I was hoping to have it hang off the edge of the circuit board. I don't think so.
but I have not made exact measruments yet.
fenn: that is why it is mounted that direction - because that is how I was planning on mounting them
so you are trying to save space by mounting the heatsink sideways?
father kept on bringing out equipment - first it was a dc clamp amp meter.. That was nice. then he brought out this. http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/DSC_2110.JPG
temp gun - cool
fenn - because I am planning to put 2 mosfets and 2 free wheeling diodes on one heat sink.
I have a cheap Radio Shack version
oh i see.. that heatsink has been bandsawed then?
yes - just to test
I wonder if changes to the wiki warrant being announced on CIA
sometimes it's nice to know that there are updates, and it wouldn't create that many messages
they were at one point
* jepler wanders off again
back when the wiki was stored in CVS too
but it wasn't a message when the wiki changed, but rather one message once per week? when the cron saved all the pages
* alex_joni grins :D ..
I think it was the daily backup that created a message, not changes per se
right.. that's what I said :D
or at least meant to
right - I'll be back with coffee in a sec ;)
jepler: now that you mention it, it wouldn't be that hard to extend the wiki perl script to send an email to CIA upon page changes :)
but not do so for things marked as "minor edits"
right.. one day when I'll know enough perl :)
what would be considered a minor edit? spelling/grammer?
that's what I use the checkbox for
also other typos (though those can be significant for a user)
forgot to say - any thing over about 24 amps and the juction voltage would climb :)
oh - and without a fan - it would boil spit.
that's why it got hot - it didn't like getting spit on ;)
lol.. who would?
oh, and the fan doesn't allow the spit to reach it.. right
If you need to know - I used my finger to apply the spit. The air flow did not come into play.
you touched a boiling hot surface with your finger?
the boiling spit protects you
sure - why not?? Just have to do it reletivly fast.
fenn: got something from you the other day ;)
Cowboy Bebop OST 3 - 14 - We Qui Non Coin
speaking of obsession, i've been rather obsessed with this for the past 4 hours: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7033406.pdf
hmm - big capasitor? with regulation. (sorry didn't really read it that close)
oh - the EEStore battery
very cool stuff, I think
in some articles, they mention that for $9 or so, you can get enough energy in one of these things to run an electric car 500 miles
well, it depends on the price of electricity
but i can see a lot more uses for this than electric cars
of course - unfortunately that includes weaponry
but laptop/other portable electronic devices should benefit as well
do you think it would be feasible to reduce the thickness of the dielectric layer?
3500V is a lot
not a huge problem for an electric car, but not something you want to tackle in a cellphone
I haven't read the patent, so I definitely don't know
the patent goes into exhaustive detail
however, I may read it now, and/or point my parents at it
whoever wrote it doesnt know much about writing patents or is intentionally giving away most of their secrets
well, lemme rephrase that
(it's nice to have two P-Chem PHd's I can ask questions)
whoever wrote it sucks at writing patents
err - PhD
well, patents are pretty annoying to write anyway - it may not be their fault
hmmm - 336 pounds for a 52 kW*h battery
about the size of a normal car battery
2 car batteries maybe
one big or 2 small (or in between) ;)
whoa - it's interesting that they say that a NiMH battery self-discharges 5-10% per day
yeah NiMH suck that way
"The self-discharge is 5-10% on the first day, and stabilizes around 0.5-1% per day at room temperature."
ok, so "surface charge" goes away quickly, then it settles down
i picked up my digital camera today - totally dead
it uses AA batteries so it doesnt keep them topped up
hmmm - isn't aluminum oxide part of high-energy solid rocket fuel?
or was that aluminum dioxide?
aluminum powder and iron oxide?
i cant imagine aluminum oxide as a rocket fuel - it's too stable
the space-shuttle "The propellant mixture in each SRB motor consists of an ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer, 69.6 percent by weight), aluminum (fuel, 16 percent), iron oxide (a catalyst, 0.4 percent), a polymer (a binder that holds the mixture together, 12.04 percent), and an epoxy curing agent (1.96 percent). "
hmmm - you can't expose aluminum to air without it quickly getting an oxide coating
who said anything about air?
anyway - I was reading through the materials part of the patent, and remembered things like the Hindenburg and John Carmack's rockets
who said anything about aluminum?
it's in the patent, section 3 at the top of page 4
oh, whoops, in the glass coating
al2o3 is like sandpaper grit
true - it is hard stuff
wow - now that's a patent sentence: (will take a bit to type)
"Also, the method described in this patent of coating the calcium magnesium aluminosilicate glass ensures that the hot-isostatic-pressed double-coated composition-modified barium titanate high-relative-permittivity layer is uniform and homogeneous."
* alex_joni is on the floor laughing
check this out..
my collegue got an toroidal transformer which outputs slightly more than he needs
so I suggested he wrapps some wire on the primary, to make it output less
did you mention that he has to connect it to the primary wires, and wind it backwards?
wrapped it the wrong direction?
so he did.. but went the wrong way around.. so it outputs more now
that was the first time.. so I told him.. you need to go the other way
so he did.. starting from where the leads are he now went right, not left
but still in the same direction regarding the tor
now he does it the third time :D
didn't do it backwards :))
I hope you made fun of him. Maybe laughing and pointing in his direction.
and I _told_ him only to do a couple of threads and then check :D
but no.. he did about 50 before checking :D
thats ok - I thougth once that if I hooked up a bridge rectifier backwards I would get ac out.
"conservation of energy, it's obvious"
heh.. and when you think that doing AC->DC->AC->DC-AC a few times leaves you with no energy at all :D
fenn: you wouldn't happen to know if there is a to-247 package in eagle (2 leg diode version)
like this http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/RU%2FRURG5060.pdf
I can't find one.
skunkworks: draw one.. it's usually fastest
I tried that once. I didn't get very far. Guess I am going to have to play with it some more. Eagle is very counter-intuitive to me.
heh.. no more war?
no more war - where'd you see a silly notion like that?
is this correct? http://www.carmi.se/misterstarshine/Projects/code.htm
I always thought "make peace" and "not war" are together
that should probably be in temp, pinc
since you probably want to read the pins, not what you're outputting to them
(or the pull-up settings for pins configured as input)
alex: ah yes - I missed the sign-on message
the peace timed out
* alex_joni goes home
a 40-minute commute. not too bad ;)
err - 20? ;)
SWPadnos: get another coffee mug
maybe I should brew a second pot
vq_ is now known as ValarQ
about 300.000 new born babies
in a blender
other than that?
* alex_joni is doing IEC 848 again :(
that sounds nasty
[16:59:43] <alex_joni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_function_chart
that looks uncannily like seimens S7-graph
[17:01:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://www.automation.siemens.com/simatic/industriesoftware/html_76/produkte/software-s7-graph.htm
I found it ok for PLC's actually, as long as the task is simple
* Lerneaen_Hydra pokes alex_joni
alex_joni, I remember that being states, states programming, or something to that effect.
I'm pondering starting to wire up my plc..
hmm, the most advanced siemens plc stuff looks like toys compared to what I code in :/
seimens really does look like toys
then again it seems to be made for code monkeys
I recently took a class in alphacam at C. R. Onsrud and due to the apparent turf war between onsrud and komo there is a claim by C.R. Onsrud that komo won't write a proper post for the onsrud (for komos router-cim software)
Trying to get to the bottom of it I thought that since one of the onsrud controllers can handle iso rs274 standard g-code and komo includes an ios rs274 output post, that this would work
what I have since come to believe is that standard g-code is intermixed with machine specific code... making nothing really completely standard
yep - I'd say that the standard defines a subset that most manufacturers support, but that they more or less all add extensions to it
But it leaves me wondering that if standard g-code is the majority of the program then it should be possible to create a trans lator from one machine specific code to anothr
somethinbg that could even be done in a macro or set of macros in a text processor
search and replace with conditionals
could be, but it's probably easier to just use the common subset of codes - lines, rapids, maybe arcs, etc.
I think the real problem comes from peck driloling cycles, how they handle macros and/or variables, whether they actually add additional functionality to existing codes (for example, non-orthogonal planes)
drilling, that was
SMPadnos: except the problem is that if komo is really not doing onsrud right, and it is generally up to the software creator that generates the g-code to do the post processor... well there must be a way around it.
also modal variables (ie, putting hte machine into a mode where it may interpret the same code in a different way)
I dunno anything about a possible turf war there (and wouldn't want to get involved if I did ;) )
well, as an end user I'm not very pleased with being stuck in the middle of it
indeed, I can imagine
hmmm - Komo and CR Onsrud are competing machine manufacturere, why would you need to use one to generate code for the other?
or do you use a machine-based system to create parts (rather than a CAD package, such as SolidWorks)?
hmm.. that was nice ;) 1.5 hours massage ...
then again, I'm not a huge fan of getting massages
heh - I think my wife would like it there ;)
So getting around such astro turf I guess I can (if I can find it) time outputting code of the same shapes for the different machines and using the different programs untill I see enough to create a translation in a macro.
threeseas: why bother?
threeseas: the proper way would be to write a postprocessor which does the right job
certainly most CAM apps allow users to implement their own postprocessor
C.R. Onsrud doesn't create software,, only hardware. Komo creates hardware and a software package. There are two packages that run within Autocad... We use autocad. Alphacam is not one of them. Alphacam is not as usefule to us as autocad. Even the Alphacam teacher said he has never been able to convert autocad user to use only Alphacam...
there are programs that will convert DXF files to G-Code, and there are standalone CAM programs that can be customized
Alex-_joni. to wrote a post processor for use in routercim I would need to probably now soem of the proprietary information about routercim.
Yeah, Alphacam has some komo posts that can be modified, But router-cim has some capabilities alphacam doesn't though in general alphacam is easier to use
* Lerneaen_Hydra_ *coughedgecamcough*
there are only two cam packages that I know of that work within autocad. router-cim and microvellum
SWPadnos: did I mention lately I hate java?
hmmm. I don't think so
do you hate it as much as I hate LabView?
Well I need to get my car out of the shop.
threeseas, does it have to operate from within AutoCad?
I'd prefer it did cause there is a higher pay scale for autocad users than just g-coders
I'd reather spend more time in autocad to improve my autocad skills than in some other program
using CAM isn't just about making G-code. you have to know about materials, removal rates, feeds/speeds, coolant, machine capabilities, etc.
if you want to write G-code by hand, that's one thing. effectively using CAM is a different animal
On the brite side. since alphacam is easier, once set up with company specific machining , then I can teach the other two autocad people and reduce my overall time doing cim work
well, that is a plus ;)
In the work I do thre is alot more to cad then cims.
www.id3group.com if anyone is interested.
SWPadnos: probably not as much
oh good. that level of hatred leads to wars ;)
poor labview people
heh. I don't own a gun ...
fists work too
humans are equiped with deadly weapons by nature
oh yeah. maybe I'll learn to use them one day
oh, btw.. I did somne drawings with my mill today :)
drew the spiral.ngc on paper :D
hmmm - do I want to see? :)
SWPadnos: the base holding tha paper wasn't straight
so it didn't look very good.. (not touching all the time)
alex_joni: you should have it spring loaded
or a very very weak Z axis motor ;)
alex_joni: Do you have a video (about 15M) about end mills?
K`zan: hmmm.. let me check
K`zan: I have an How it's made, car engines
:-), A-L-P-H-A lost his copy and I was just wondering if it might have shown how to re-grind the end mills. I know both too much and not enough about car engines :-).
nothing about endmills
Thanks for looking though, appreciate the effort!
:-(, I guess I'll just save the crapped out ones and order some more.
might be this one?
Got it coming in, THANKS!
15615465 2006-08-04 20:03 How_its_made-Cutting_tools-2006-07-28.mp4
Why am I having problems shelling out the $680 for the parts to CNC the mill? :-)
* K`zan needs to just byte the bullet...
alex_joni: cool video
the production seems to be innefective though
especially the roughing in the cnc lathe
Yep, def interesting, would have probably be more so it I had the codec for the audio stream :).
the tools just sit there for 5 seconds between each pass, though they could just have cut the video like that
K`zan: it didn't say much
Not likely to get all that equipment, will probably just have to buy new ones :-).
My one attempt at grinding one resulted in a mess similar to beating on the part with an axe :-).
we missed you like the plague.
K`zan, it wasn't how to grind endmills... it was how they're made
K`zan: flirt with somone here to make them for you
that's what I'd do
:-) already learned all there is for that approach :-), I'd rather learn to grind my own :-)
parts for the cnc mill?
no, just the end mill itself, all it takes is $680 to CNC the mill. All... heh.
im being stupid :/
:-), I have days like that too :).
someone made a jig to regrind mills.
it was pretty cool.
Seems simpler to throw money at the problem :-).
he bought an indexing holder, and just used a grinding wheel.
there's a knot in my back. :(
did not sleep well at all.
I'm still trying to figure out how I broke the flute...
I rarely sleep well..
Well, it was about $4 from Enco on sale.
<-- could be mean.
A-L-P-H-4 is now known as A-L-P-H-A
is usually mean :-).
[21:18:52] <cradek> http://www.pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF048AD-One_More_Day.jpg#117
hm, I remember seeing this one ages ago: http://www.pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF015AD-Freaking_Vortex.jpg#84
K`zan: I dont get what you mean by mill?
or cnc mill?=
K`zan: it's pretty simple
K`zan: buy good tools and they last :
* anonimasu loves dormer and ghüring :)
though not paying for them
good night all