we fler for 3 days to get 30 seconds of movie.... tow plane... winch... crew... chase plane with camera man... and all ancilliary ground support and disruption.... we flew from a small airport... with no IN/OUT times for areial's over the airport with more cams
30 seconds... UNFLIPPEN BELIEVABLE....
what kind of thing did you need the footage for?
sounds like a shooting for the darwin awards :D
the cam guy they got from NS.. had to be a cam guy and u/l pilot
dmessier: only kidding..
for the movie... "harold and kumar go to Whitecastle"
i have witnessed som prospect of the...
alex_joni: why does yanor have so many zeners in the h-bridge?
fenn: you can ask questions..
think I know that at 3 am :D
I think I put those in there to protect the MOS-FETs, wanted to run at 24V
be brave little soldier
fenn: it's been 2-3 years now?
do you remember what value the zeners were? i'm also running 24V
you knew i was coming.. ; )
i blow er up the turn it down 1 notch
there are 4 in there, if I'm reading it right
2 on the motor
2 on the other thing, whateve that is
and 2 on the opamp
that's the current limiter
does it do analog-> pwm to drive the opto's/
no, you do that from the PC, or whatever drives it
i have a hypothetical ??? to ask
dmessier: ask away.. hypothetically
fenn: I commanded the bridge with a generated PWM
finish first... its of topic
and you get an analog signal back, through the optocouplers?
no, the optos are only for separation and making sure that the 2 sides don't overlap
ne feedback here, only thing is current limiting
R25 is a small value /big wattage resistor in series with the motor
0.01 Ohm @ 10W or so
depending on the max current you want
I ended up not using the zenners, drove the whole thing at 12V
what are the logic gates for?
I used dir & step interface
the logic gates turn that into the command for the 2 halfs
say E = step & F = dir
right, so you only need one pwm channel
so, if you were running it at 24V what value zener would you choose and why?
I can't remember
but I think the 2 zenners around the motor are there to prevent voltage coming from the motor to hurt the fets
24V zenners I'd use
and they are placed that way in order not to allow the voltage to exceed that value
i'm thinking something like 26V so i dont work the zeners too hard but still below the gate drive voltage
but probably jmkasunich knows this better
* jmkasunich hides
I only knew it for a short while..
heh i'll pester him next week
where is the schematic?
when he'll stop hiding.. maybe after fest
[00:15:01] <fenn> http://dsplabs.utt.ro/~juve/yanor/downloads/bridge.pdf
[00:15:01] <alex_joni> http://dsplabs.utt.ro/~juve/yanor/downloads/bridge.pdf
* alex_joni hides now
[00:15:09] <SWPadnos> http://dsplabs.utt.ro/~juve/yanor/downloads/bridge.pdf
thanks swp :P
anyone else around to paste that?
I can paste it into #emc-devel if you like ;)
i guess i should draw up a schematic of what i'm doing soon
dual H bridges....
yeah, we were only talking about 1
the right one for example
voltage divider gate drive
so R1/R11 etc need to be adjusted for the supply voltage
the comparator is for current limit?
limit from R15
ayee. that's a bad schematic :(
comparator output normally low, current gets too high and it goes hi and turns off fets
no latching tho, how do you keep it from oscillating in current limit?
it's driven by a PWM, so I figured it shouldn't matter
and the optos were kinda slowish ..
maybe that is what saves it
otoh, I never used the current limiter
there is a big difference between 20KHz PWM, and current limit kicking on and off at 200KHz
only needed about 10Amps max
and this was ok at that current
the fets were darn cold..
you weren't attempting to make it short circuit proof or anything?
nah, just simple
so, fenn, what were you asking about?
but let's help fenn out .. zenners
what voltage zener to use for 24V supply
i dont know what a sensible value is
across the motor? better be higher than the max supply voltage
and lower then the fet voltage
what is the rated fet voltage?
pretty high on those
not that high..
55V is pretty low by my standards ;-)
and the other I can't remember ;)
alex_joni: all n-channel bridge
so just irfz44n :)
then you can't use this schematic
fenn: not all N channel
I like my ir2111 - although I don't have one working yet :)
skunkworks: don't get me started on ir2111
I know I knoe
jmkasunich: which circuit are we talking about now?
fenn: if you are using all N channel, what are you using for high side gate drive?
I used irfz44n & irf4905
alex's circuit is P channel on the high sise
jmkasunich: 2 transistors like this: http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public/Motors/H-Bridges/Blanchard/nch-brdg.htm
heh.. the blanchard.. memories come up ;)
so you are generating a voltage that is 12V higher than your main DC bus?
yeah i will supply 36V and 24V from the power supply
thats the idea at least
fenn: why not use irf4905 ?
they are only a few cents more expensive
the blanchard circuit seems pretty lame
its definitely not high performance or anything
more brains the better... hypthetical situation.... WHO can make EMC2 a swap into a working Fanuc 11M .. with toolcchange macro capacity
easy to have shoot-thru too, if you aren't carefull
digikey has them for 1.94496$
jmkasunich: I still have that totum pole you had drawn up a few weeks ago.
that criss-cross drive for the low side sucks
dmessier: not that hard as you'd expect
alex_joni: irfz44n is $0.37 each
extremely simple, I'll admint that, very cheap
dmessier: lots of integrator work
who's THE man... ;)
i just spend $160 at jameco somehow.. o_0
* alex_joni points at jmkasunich
* jmkasunich hides again
(I dunno what I got pointed at for)
could YOU do it??
WHO can make EMC2 a
swap into a working Fanuc 11M
dmessier: probably so
jmkasunich: kinda like the mazak thingie :)
i'll give you the manuals...
allow several months then
but it's all hypothetical, so we're safe
1st try 2 axis lathe.. ;
20 yr old vdf
i'll do the mech myself..
dmessier: sounds like lots & lots of trouble
there's another in the wings
why? .. because stuff turns up
you have no idea what to expect before beginning
the amps and drives work fine... i wanna eliminatete the cnc memory problem
swapping in EMC should be pretty easy, assuming that all the mechanical hardware is functioning perfectly, and there's an unlimited budget for replacoing things that don't talk well with emc ;)
or unlimited programming time & skills to replace emc parts that don't talk well
and lots of time
thats the development stuff
and _all_ the manuals
but if you boiuld a fanuc matct.. its an easy sell.. ; )
cd good enuf
do you want it to talk fanuc-rs274 ?
or beter... yes
* alex_joni runs away screaming
dmessier: please dont tease the developers
Do I *HAVE* to use ubuntu? or is debian good enough for emc2?
but with full macro -B capacity + all emc has to add
Jymmm: you can use LFS for what I care ;)
alex_joni but your response dont count for shit.
Jymmm: if you don't want to build your own kernel, then choose ubuntu, or bdi4 if you have to
Jymmm: if you want the thrill of patching your kernel with adeos and then building rtai, and avoiding all the "gotchas" that seem to be inherent in the process, use any linux distro you want
jepler why not debian? it has rtai
arent there .deb kernel packages out there?
fenn yeah there's a deb for rtai
Jymmm: got a link for that?
Jymmm: knock yourself out. emc2 will work on a wide range of systems.
i wont teas.. if you want on board.. and will be INC'd soon
jepler I dont what to make anything, jsut apt-get it all
this one: http://packages.debian.org/unstable/devel/rtai
doesn't really sounds like something I would install
Jymmm: If you want something that will just work, choose ubuntu or bdi4.
especially the 'unstable/devel' part of it
Jymmm: if you do something else, and it works, please document it on the wiki
Jymmm: both use apt-get it all
jepler: I REALLY dont care for ubuntu. But since it's based on debian, is why I'm asking.
you have several choices: 1. get BDI (debian based) and put emc2 on it (apt-get even, seen an emc2 package lately), 2. get ubuntu & do the same, 3 install a stock debian and get one of the kernels from 1 or 2, and hope they work
Jymmm: cradek put a lot of work into the kernels he distributes for ubuntu. It's possible that debian is easier, but I don't know for sure.
i love the debial LIVE cd for showing to friends..
Jymmm: except for the installer, bdi4 is really just sarge plus a different kernel
jepler: What's so soecific for ubuntu that is si different for debian?
the Puppy emc2 is qiute cool too
and you get kde and a distant cousin of emc1 to boot
dmessier: that's what I'm doing right now.. working on a Ubuntu LiveCD with emc2
Jymmm: it's oriented more towards newbies
Jymmm: well, that's a tough question to ask---but try this: go to #debian and ask them whether you can use an ubuntu kernel on sarge.
Jymmm: er, tough question to answer
Jymmm: the image :)
you'll get a frosty reception at best
or at least clowdy
50 % Cu is good
* fenn wonders what percentage of the room understands dmessier
jepler they say yes
but t o pay close attention to dependancys
Jymmm: i'm surprised. Usually I get a "fuck you and go ask in #ubuntu you ball of tepid slime" if I ever say the U-word
jepler TAKE THE HINT!!! =)
i love it when we All ge along
dmessier, I think the biggest hurdle for what (I think) you're suggesting would be getting complete documentation
i HVE THE CD
dmessier: slow down when you type :)
so that all the hardware and software "interfaces" can be as similar as possible
and plc diags..
for the machine
hm, replace the plc ;)
I'll write the program for you if you pay for the trip there :)
and pay for the plc ;)
HAL != PLC
but classicladder is
sorry brain fart
I wouldnt touch anything like cl with a long stick :)
classic laddr swap
ahh... but CANADA is the land of milk and ladies
ladies with milk?
watch for a bruin though..
boyfriends... ; (
and we are ALL friends whenit come to KICKIN' someone's ass on the street.... especially when its icy... ; )
and there's a ROCK to chase..
sounds like hockey alright
as They Might Be Giants said "everybody wants a rock to tie a piece of string around"
i LOVE that one
* alex_joni goes to bed
but i prefer red wool
"everybody wants prosthetic foreheads on their real head"
good night alex
or a mor resiliant "blow up doll"
* Jymmm steps FAR away from dmessier
its safe.... we put DUCT TAPE on it... i dont fly with it...
that would be BAD
beaux reve.. be well ;)
does canvas do well to trap dust, but allow heat to escape? (like a painters tarp)
light weight canvas might.. heavy.. NO chance
can someone tell me how in tkemc/mini you tell which line of the program goes outside limits? can you detect this before you run the program (with verify?)
cradek: in mini, when you hit verify, you get a message in the left-hand text part
2 - g0x100
exceeds +X limit
2 is a serial number, not a line number
but it's showing the contents of the line that goes out of range
I wonder how it gets "exceeds +X limit"
yeah - I was thinking the 630 was the command number, not the line number
(huh, why is milltask pegging my CPU)
during a verify?
(it doesn't while I run axis)
SWPadnos: well the verify was done (came to an error)
I don't think emc reports that
hm. I'm not sure then. I know the milltask is CPU bound when doing a verify pass
tkemc prints the same thing on verify
exceeds +X limit
and then my CPU pegs again
that message must come from somewhere inside emc
do G0x-100, and I bet you get "exceeds -X limit"
hmmm. I wonder if some error state causes task to be "unfriendly" with the CPU
yeah, after 'verify' it's pegged
if I run (and error) it goes back to normal
even if there's no limit error?
what if you hit abort?
I guess I've never used verify (I rarely use anything but axis)
ESTOP fixes it too
there seems to be no signal that the verify is done
maybe it never finishes right
inexplicably, you have to turn the machine on to verify
not sure, but I think all verify does is run the program
while dumping the motion commands in the bitbucket
./src/emc/task/emctaskmain.cc: _("exceeds +X limit"));
so it expects you to be in run
there are a bunch of hard-coded messages for each of the 3 possible axes
two sets of each in fact
oh, one for LINEAR and one for CIRCUILAR
so all verify does is check limits?
it only checks the endpoints also, not the actual path
it sure looks that way
yuck, that's no good that it won't catch wrong arcs
here's one it doesn't catch: g0x0y0z0
oh well, that seems like it would be hard to fix.
you could construct an arc that would fool axis but it would be harder (it would depend on the subdivision missing the most extreme point, which it never will by much)
does motion catch that, or does it run up to the limit?
"Minimum Software Limit on axis 1 exceeded."
Y -10.0888 (in red)
well that's good at least
hmmm. but does it go happily along until it gets to the SW limit, then stop?
(probably, thinking about it)
I wonder if thats as good as refusing to start the move...
(much easier to deal with in software though)
it should refuse to start the program (actually, warn)
uh, like axis already does, I guess
we only programmed the finest common sense into axis
that's surely a lie
wow - I seem to have managed to get truly random output from an FPGA
too bad I wasn't trying to do that
try sampling the data and see if it compresses
I actually know how to compress random data ;)
do lossy compression ;-)
heh - that's one way ;)
jepler: did your last post ever show up on the bdi4 list?
my method involves not sending the dictionaty
cradek: on my end they show up as accepted, of course.
expect an announcement about 4.46 very soon (unless it's already gone out)
jepler: hmm, that's too bad
paul is blocking jepler now?
hard to say, it could be some other kind of problem
I just sent a copy of the message from another address
for any of you who are subscribed to the bdi list, what's the last message you got?
paul's snippy responses to your questions
it's nice to see that he still cares enough to read these logs (hi paul!), maybe he'll come visit us again sometime.
[02:27:30] <jmkasunich> http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/festcam.jpg
is that the aiptek pencam?
I saw your comment about getting one for $25
either you got a heck of a deal, or you didn't get the same one
this is the pencam 1.3M
as in 1.3 megapixel
the $25 one is probably lower res
[02:33:22] <fenn> http://search.ebay.com/7618351940
sounds like it, for some reason the pic(s) didn't load
is it blue and silver?
I dont think so - the ebay one doesn't look like it takes an SD card
yours does, right? (jmk)
the card slot is inside the battery door
they don't mention it - only "built-in 16M"
I wonder why I don't get a pic?
oh, the full model number is
PenCam 1.3M SD
just noticed the SD now
its from images.amazon.com maybe you have it blocked
thats the card
don't think so
[02:36:32] <jmkasunich> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7618351940&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/7618351940QQfviZ1#ebayphotohosting
doesn't work for me
not the same camera
the ebay ones are squarer
the SD is kinda curvy
R-PCM13 and R-PCSD13 are two different models
[02:37:21] <jepler> http://www.aiptek.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PLST&Store_Code=AS
the latter is the one with an SD card
strangely, the prices are the same on that site
* fenn bets he will find solder pads for an sd socket when he opens it up
refresh the festcam page for a pic
would heatsink thermal compound work to isolate my mosfets from the heatsink?
so i need to use those little gray pads?
do you know why they cost $1 each?
you putting all the fets on the same sink?
the original idea was to have a modular system, each motor has its own driver and electronics all in one little box
that box would be cast aluminum and also serve as a heatsink
i can buy a sheet of the stuff for ... $92!
I think I have some around here somewhere
question is where
in the lower left plastic bin ;)
behind the DigiKey box
it might be too late, but I should have offered to transport stuff from surplus center
you'd need a tractor trailer
there's a lot of limit switches on eBay. I considered getting a bunch and selling them
then I realized that selling all of them would make me $50, and thought better of the risk ;)
very nice roller arm NEMA 12 switches
[02:47:07] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7559494155
he offered me a little bit of a discount on qty. 50, but I figured that a $450 investment might be a bit much
yeah, sounds risky
nice switches thoug
[02:48:49] <jmkasunich> http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/festcam.jpg
third bin down, middle stack, on the botton
you need to label your bins
they're all laebled
I have a spreadsheet listing a thousand or so items and where they are
whats that cabinet with the light switch and shiny handle?
the "table" part means crap is piled on it
flatsurfaceitice - I have that problem
here's my 6 hp dust collector, and here's my 2 hp crap collector
I can barely walk from steps to desk
Nice drill press
previous owner added the countershaft
now it goes very slow
she likes to sit on the bench
but I have to keep a clear spot for her
otherwise she starts pushing stuff off
:) we have 3 that are brats like that.
[03:02:45] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/house/cat.JPG
Time for bed - night
SWPadnos: You haven't played with BASIC and AVR have you?
what do you call a gear with no sliding contact?
I haven't used any flavor of Basic since the Atari days
(except for gorilla.bas on DOS)
SWPadnos gorilla.bas works on XP too =)
if you have basic, at least
SWPadnos if you want it, I got it.
thanks, but no thanks
SWPadnos I ordered those 3mm LEDs, we'll see how they do
I have an STK300 dev kit (kinda old by today's standard), not sure if that's the best way to start learning or not.
if the STK300 uses the parallel port for programming, then I'd get a newer kit
Um, I think it can do both... serial or parallel
the STK500 is $79, I think, and does all the chips, and runs from a serial port
is that the one with the yellow PCB?
hmmm - that could have been the STK100
about 4" x 5" yeah
[03:26:25] <Jymmm> http://images.google.com/images?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=stk300&btnG=Search&sa=N&tab=wi
ok. the connection to the PC is via the parallel port though, regardless of whether you're programming the chip in serial or parallel mode, right?
I dont recall atm
the gray dongle in this photo is the parallel port adapter
[03:27:40] <SWPadnos> http://www.kanda.com/images/stk300ice_200.jpg
I'd recommend that you get an AVRISP or AVRISP2
they can plug into the same 10-pin ISP header on the Kanda board, but they use a serial connection (or USB for the AVRISP2)
it's a lot less dependent on processor speed, and I think it may actually program the chips faster
(dependent on processor speed on the PC for timing loops, not performance reasons)
I also have a tiny lil board that a 20p dip fits into for ISP programm I believe, has a 9V battery on the bottom
there are two serial/parallel things here
one is the method used to program the chip itself
the other is the connection to the PC
serial is preferred for the PC connection, because it's much more tolerant of PC variations
serial is often preferred for the chip as well, because you can program the chips while they're on the board
very easy if you leave a header (or just the holes for one) on the baord
so spend the $29 on the AVRISP, dammit! ;)
ah. well I'll pull it out because it's been a while and I just can't remember
or maybe they're $27 now
uh-oh - $34 for the USB version
jymmm dont listen to him
parallel port works just fine
there are a lot more libraries in C though
i havent used basic since elementary school but everyone seems to think it is a terrible language
oh good they have much cheaper heatsink insulators
BASIC, I can do. Will have re/Learn C
still cant believe i'm paying as much for little gray pads as power mosfets
I didn't know they where that expensive. Have not had to pay for them. (usually what I need from the stuff i have laying around)
well, $0.50 each isnt all that expensive i guess
but it seems like it when you're buying 40 of them
yes it does.
* fenn needs more junk
jmk's "webcam" is pretty cool. He is using his drill press now.
Right before I was going to bed - I find out that one of our network switches went down. So now I am at work.
Stuff isn't all it is cracked up to be. It takes an ungodly amount to get to the point that you have what you
when you need it
boy that was deep - wasn't it
I know exactly what you mean
* Jymmm lol @ skunkworks
jmkasunich SO, whatcha makin?
bracket to hold a 2.5" hard disk in a formerly diskless thin client
ah, those cheap flimsy brackets are such a pita
oh a java client?
no, a baby pc
ah, cool. ant idea what the cpu/ram is?
[04:20:31] <jmkasunich> http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/festcam.jpg
its a 233MHz geode
taht looks like what i've got
dimm slot + sodimm slot
does it have a funky power connector that screws on?
it had a 32M sodimm, I stuck a 128M dimm in it
refresh the page to see the back
so why are you adding moving parts to it?
cause I want to run linux on it
i got a CF card and ide adapter
I don't ;-)
besides, I want lots of space
this is a 6G drive
pff 256mb should be enough for anybody!
[04:26:08] <skunkworks> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/blue_soda025/brandnewcomputer.jpg
nuttin but top quality crapmanship here...
i just about had a heart attack: http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/irc/random-screenshot4.png
it was just a bug though.. they still have 40,000 of them in stock
that ought to be enough
they are a bit sensitive though. maybe mouser has some more.
easily go poof
now I just need to cut the drive power connector off and solder to the PS output
sounds like a great idea
Nice soldering station. I find my soldering pen of choice lately has been the weller butain iron.
don't need an outlet
oo is the master performing for his internet audience?
thats just the clearest spot on the bench
Finally got a tracking number for the pcb engraving bits. Looks like monday.
skunkworks from where? (I can't find them on ebay)
the one I ground works "ok
" but leaves quit a burr.
I figure I am worth it:)
I was talking like the ones at drillbitcity.com
All I really needed wass the Mechanical Etching Bits - I have enough carbide dill bits to last me a life time I think.
No, they have endmills too
I know - i was just saying.
[05:07:42] <Jymmm> http://drillbitcity.com/catalogue/product_detail.asp?Tg=301-R8WSFBRB
yeah, she's back
Jymmm is now known as Jymm
I wasn't sure about the pcb kit or this resharpened hobby kit... http://drillbitcity.com/catalogue/special_tools.asp?Pt=2&St=&Sc=
propane drill bit?
I guess for making your own burners/jets
skunkworks on the url I posted
Didn't notice that/
Yeah, guess for making gas lamps forr model RR layouts or some such
I really would like a few 1/16", and 1/32, but all the ones I've seen have a VERY short cutting edge, would like at least 1/2"
on the 1/16"
just for depth clearnace
Jymm is now known as Jymmmmm
Jymmmmm is now known as Jymmm
how is midband-resonance suppression implemented in a stepper motor driver?
could it be a hoax?
got some new part for my I-droid01 today :)
received the pack nr 37
just an issue, after I set the password vocally it don't recognize any command more
haha, stupid vocal commands
I've to wait the bluetooth module to unlock it :)
anytime I try the vocal passwd it reply: do not do a fellow .. lol
also " you don't know the password" :)
does anyone know how midband resonance damping is implemented in stepper drivers?
doesn't it depend on feedrate only ?
I just skip tha resonace point setting the feedrate
dunno if is possible to damp it by the driver
i've heard that some stepper drivers can supress midband-resonance
anyway, the gecko for example is said to have this feature built in the driver. this is a complete mystery to me
how on earth is that implemented and how does it work
could be a routine running in a microcontroller maybe
there is a complete stage that does that.. looks at the input frequency, and modifies it I think
the stepping frequency I mean
I really don't think its a very important feature
giacus: depends on the steppers
some steppers / setups are critical in that area, and cause stalls or missing steps
so basically one needs to program the stepper driver with information about the resonant frequency of the motor so that the driver can avoid that frequency
I think that's a common frequency
but then again I wouldn't know
there are people who do this for a living, and you can't really compete with that
but it's still intresting to understand how it works. it can't be pure magic can it?
Bo^Dick: some things are better left at the pure-magic level
can't understand everything out there
imagine trying to understand processor-specific stuff, like branch-predicting
heuristic branch-predicting to make it more interesting
the thought that the midband-damping would be a hoax has crossed my mind
well why would the resonance damping be the far most advanced feature of a stepper driver?
you could try to ask Mariss
because it's the far most difficult to implement?
* alex_joni is just guessing
it feels like you don't know more about resonance damping than i do
I didn't say otherwise
the difference is that I don't even care to understand it ;)
first question should be how to detect that point by the driver
usually a lot of instruments are needed for what I know
and after to implement the control
probably very hard
could be hard to implement
at this stage there are a lot of guessing
I just got my drivers working pretty well working onf fine tuning by emc
such accell and max vel
that's why I sayd .. is it not so important
giacus: what driver do you have?
I'm lucky, I found the datasheet for my old steppers too
so I know the curves ..
Bo^Dick: I also played a couple of months around homebuilt drivers, anyone know here..
at the end I understand that the price for a good driver is right
and not so expensive at the end
I also tried to understand how servosrivers work ..
I'm very interesting on it
same thing.. lot of math :(
i've fully managed to understand how microstepping works
...so i thought i could learn about midband resonance as well
...presuming that it wouldn't be a lot more advanced
[11:11:26] <giacus> http://digilander.libero.it/jackydgl0/photos/lab/img011.jpeg
that's an epson driver I was playng time ago
it is a microstepping driver (epson)
I just got it working in half-step
hi, anyone here ?
giacus: have you ever experienced resonance problems with your stepper setup?
the cat on the keyboard :D
Bo^Dick: why dont you design a algorithm for dampening the resonance..
imagine it's all software..
how can the driver or software know when the stepper motor suffers from resonance. stepper drivers are open loop systems aren't they?
Bo^Dick: I just found some feedrate setting better than others
i.e at 26 inch/min lost some step, and not at 25 or 27 ..
Bo^Dick: plug it into a fpga and have feedback.. ( theoretically speaking )
if almost noone have ever experienced resonance problems i'm sot sure it feels relevant to get involved with
but I had no issues working on that
I have with my geckos, but I were trying to match up to the speed of the servo axis:es..
err my gecko..
kind of silly :)
Bo^Dick: what makes the concept of software control imposible?
you can always imagine it as software and design a hardware solution to implement your resonance dampening..
well the definition of an open loop system is that the computer doesn't know how many steps that have actually been performed in reality
that's the reason I prefer servos with encoders
but it isnt the solution for all ..
it only sends information in one direction and thus shouldn't be able to know if the motor suffers from resonance or not
this is why i think the anti-resonance talks is just a selling argument
it can't exist in real life
why not mail mariss and ask him about it?
do you think he is willing to discuss this topic with me
[12:04:12] <anonimasu> http://www.cnc.yertiz.com/steppers-gecko.pdf
have a look
it has it explained
that's how the geckos do it..
cradek: someone else got the installation error: emc2-axis: Depends: emc2 but it is not going to be installed
cradek: did you ever find the solution?
(mailing list post)
the drives remedies this instability by adding a second order or viscous dampening this dampening reduces the total phase lag so that the motor cannot sustain oscllation, much in the same way shock absorbers work in the suspension of a vehicle
i thought "viscous damping" was a mechanical feature :S
there's a cat on festcam!
[12:08:54] <jepler> http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/festcam.jpg
a second order filter inside the stepper driver? is it that simple?
Bo^Dick: do you understand what is meant by phase lag?
motor shaft offset from ideal position?
jepler: it means it can't get the dependencies (like gtk) from the ubuntu repositories, typically because they're not enabled
jepler: haha nice :D
cradek: oh, the "no network at install time" problem?
once you figure out what all is needed, I'll put copies in the emc repository to fix this problem for good
cradek: oh, I have the answer to that question
Bo^Dick: more reading
[12:12:07] <anonimasu> http://www.motionsystemdesign.com/full_story.php?WID=13062
read about instability ;)
send me the list in email please, I'll do that later
oh just another day at the picle works. Waiting for morning overnight delivry
cradek: sorry, it's a secret -- er, I mean, that's a bit inconvenient to do right now
I'll have to work some this weekend...again
ok, maybe later then
I'd rather be planting vegetables
cradek: tonight we can get drunk and then work on apt cdroms
on cced list
for some reason I didn't get this post yet...
who the heck is this ballendo guy?
jepler: unfortunately I'll probably be plastering again - only two days left, and this is one of them
cradek: oh .. darn
Bo^Dick: is this helping or are you getting more confused?
have any of you seen either of the "this is a test" messages on the bdi4emc-help list?
yes I saw two
Bo^Dick: there you have your feedback..
I hate patentese
jepler: yeah, but it's a nice thing to look at to understand how things work ;)
hmmm stepper as both motor and encoder.
now that I can see the digrams, it looks like you have to use a "series" wiring. Isn't that the less desirable configuration?
it's easy to loose confidence in stepper systems after reading these articles
Bo^Dick: take it from someone who has spent many hours using a stepper system without torque compensation, without viscous damping, without patent 6900657: it is entirely reliable when you choose appropriate values for accel and velocity.
stepper systems are advertised as very unreliable
hm, I'd love to have the back emf to a fpga and compensate for the instability using the feedback..
Bo^Dick: not at the right peed
this system's top speed is about 2x the speed I ever cut at
and typically, cutting (as opposed to G0 moves between cuts) is the dominating time factor
but fast g0's are cool ;)
could someone see this image? http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US006900657&SectionNum=1&IDKey=9B2E62870635&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=6900657.PN.%2526OS=PN/6900657%2526RS=PN/6900657
it doesn't show up on my computer
you know what? i'm not allowed to download the quicktime file without buying quicktime pro 7
could someone else try to download it
"save target as lets you save a copy of the document to your harddrive, get quicktime pro 7 now and unlock this and a lot of other features"
could someone please help me :'(
please tell me why this had to happen
just nothing works for me today
I already have quicktime installed, but it ask for new plugin that's is not available on firefox ..
Bo^Dick: stop to use proprietary software :/
Bo^Dick: rightclick, view page info, media, scroll down and select the Embed, click save as
there's probably a plugin that handles tiffs, but I don't know what it is
but I can view that patent tiff just fine with gimp
I found a program "pat2pdf" on the web. You give it a patent number and it creates a file viewable by evince and others
cold and rainy up there ray?
or is it fingers.
Lots of wind and a bit of mist.
You coming up for fest?
les_w, I was wondering about ballendo myself
I suspect he doesn't know how configurable emc2 is
What is ballendo up to emc bash again.
not too much
but he does mention that Machx is "way more configurable than emc"
if so as where you can get a copy of his first editing cnc book is?
that did NOT come out right.
I wasted a bunch of time on him long years ago.
"Not interested in this one either. Have absolutely NO interest in
EMC at this point. Though once I was pretty "taken" by it. The
extensive configurability of M3(by OEM's OR individual users) just
blows it--EMC--out of consideration, IMO." - ballendo
Finally caught on that he is not teachable.
as I said, I suspect he hasn't looked at emc2/HAL
who is this guy, anyway?
He never looked at EMC. Only the name.
Does not want folk to know who he is.
Although he has spoken with Roland (Cardinal) and FredP on the phone.
I considered replying to his message (and the original subject) on CCED
He was advertising an "about to go to press" book some years ago.
IMO the plan was to edit together cced posts.
* fenn znoozes
bless ya both
i'm just curious about ballendo
why so secretive?
is he a prison inmate or something?
frequent poster on cced
darned good question
kinda bashes emc
and one who seems to dislike emc
He probably dislikes it cause I upset him.
what is cced?
he should ask for a refund on his emc then
some people are really unsecure ;)
cam cad edo dro
We had a long running discussion years ago.
it's stupid to bash free software
He seemed to think he knew more about emc than I did.
lol at cradek
he seems to know a good bit, but never seemes to get anything done.
But he usually gives correct advice
never has shown up here to my knowledge
He was talking to quite a few of the EMC authors back then but some things about emc never seemed to stick in his head.
hmm.. his yahoo account says he's 21 ?
I don't think he has looked at emc in years.
with 30 years experience
My impression was that he had someone else doing much of the posting under his name.
then when the post was prepared, he'd add a bit at the bottom. the ps
Almost like a secretary, boss sort of thing.
boy that would be a nice setup eh
or student, professor
someone to do your flaming for you
signed, -- fenn
SWPadnos: got a message nr for your paste?
except that in the latter case, there was not the ability to correct misinterpretations.
I don't see the message numbers in the emails I get
today, I think
I've learned to just not waste time on people who act like pricks, especially when they don't have anything to offer. why bother trying to change their mind about something?
reply to subject "Interface: Gauging Interest
they misinform others though
and that's a problem
oh well. just curious really.....oh a question....
is 5v 20 ma plenty for most microcontrollers?
SWPadnos: only the ones not smart enough to see through someone being a prick
no - all the beginners who don't know any better get brainwashed by the "experts"
les_w: yes i think so
les_w: I think some of the AVRs are pretty power hungry
SWPadnos: he seems full of crap
well I have generated that with air at basically the flow rate and pressure of blowing through a small diameter soda straw
is it message ID 87255?
les_w: attiny26 uses 15mA
"What we truly need is a usb EQUIVALENT of the parallel port.
Ideally, a USB equivalent of TWO p-ports. Just do that, and
the "problem" of no pports in PC's and protection OF those ports by
MS Windows architecture goes away. Then folks can use any of the
MANY pc-based pport solutions which already exist...
* alex_joni is on the floor
yeah - I was writing a response, but decided to spend my time on better things
seems "without clue"
plus, I came up with a way to make a USB parport equivalent that would actually work, and I didn't want to tell him about it ;)
* alex_joni remembered why he stopped looking at cced
at least, it would work for step generators, which are the big problem on USB
other I/O would be at the 1 ms update rate
which isnt that bad really is it?
it sucks for step generation ;)
or encoder reading in software
servos too...if you want a decent rate
1khz is sucky?
servo update rate
1000 updates = 500 steps/sec
i don care about steps/sec
or 500 quadrature counts
its a stupid way of doing things
so is reading encoders on a parallel port
ok -that's what I was talking about, hence my comment
yeah fenn 1K is dog slow for us router/hsm folks
even 1 KHz servo update rate is getting slow these days
ok for a BP though
an old one
hey - I resemble that remark
les_w, do you think you can convince Rab Gordon to allow people to work on a Linux version of his toolkit?
well, back to the shop for me...I bought some bright cluster LEDS for demonstration of the air generator from mouser
SWP....yeah Rab is a pretty nice guy and open to suggestions
yeah - haven't you seen "Total Recall"? ;)
SWPadnos: does 3dsmax even run on linux? do they even still sell that software?
ok. there's been discussion of him selling a version of the kit with support, but it hasn't gone far afaik
bill, makses electricity from compressed air with "no moving parts"
he was looking for a different 3D modeling platform to stick it on
nope .. the logger :)
les_w: no sliding or rolling contact :)
[16:48:30] <alex_joni> http://www.maschinenbau.hs-magdeburg.de/personal/bargfrede/fue/parallel/animation/triglide.mpg
<- I've died and gone to heaven ;)
electrons bouncing around dont count either :)
anna phoned now, she's in milan station
got no internet that ]:P
now that's what I call a hexapod
I'll be in peace for a bit.. maybe O_O
um.. there's a slight flaw with that
I had better get back to the shop for a while...hook up the LEDs and tack on some inductance for power factor
uncontrolled rotation? ;)
enjoy. make sure you have a welding mask nearby
i think the position will be constrained to a sphere with radius equal to the size of the platform
(if you want to look at the LEDs)
so in other words it'll flop all over the place
I basically want to blind people at the meeting
right - give the platform a twist while lowering it, and it's still constrained to the joint ends
only one mask - for yourself ;)
"please, pay no attention to the mask" ;)
les use UV led's
argh. I should get back to LabView crap
I'd like to be able to take a nice computer running Labview and shoot it
fenn: you sure it's not rigid?
then throw it off a cliff
assuming 6 motors?
alex_joni, you'd need to constrain the joint angles to get that platform to be stable
in addition to the lengths
oh, I see what you mean..
but probably you can restrain the kins to keep it stable
not cross any ambigous spots
nope - twist and lower, and you're still within the strut klength constraints
use the linear motors to compensate
oh, durn ;)
there are hexapod designs that use sliding ways
hmmm. I wonder if a cross between this, yours, and a "normal" platform would work:
like till franitza's for example
use 3 slides, arranged in a Y configuration
or another one with the ways sloped at 60 degrees arranged in a sort of cone shape
hmmm - nope
anyway. back later. see you
enjoy your labviewing
enjoy viewing your lab
i love how people always leave out the hard bits in a hexapod design
fcuk you ;)
like a realistic joint, or a sturdy frame
SWPadnos: try lapview
fenn, Till uses fixed length struts and drives them along slideways with ball screws or linear motors.
What is involved with the friday Evening Cookout and Raffle? Can I attend the cookout if I only going to be there fri,sat and sun. If I can - Do I pay for the food there then?
(any one remember from last year)
yeah i think that's the idea
skunkworks: think I saw somethign about that on the webpage
last year about 25% of the people showed up at the cookout and left on saturday
From what I read - I figured sunday would be the drive back day.
it have BT
oh... BlueTooth. I get it now.
I was thinking British Telecom
taking some screenshot ..
hello, is the mailing list working ??
hmm... i havent got any messages lately
here's .. http://www.giacus.org/photo/hobby/ipaq/index.html
linuxcnc website is rescaled pretty well on that small display :D
and also my website ;P
I'd to check for RT patches ..
giacus: where's the linuxcnc page?
[17:54:12] <giacus> http://www.giacus.org/photo/hobby/ipaq/img012.jpeg.html
the display can also be rotate
it is surfable ;)
ok.. running home ;)
did emc2-install.sh get fixed ?
etla: I sayd yeah to > alex_joni ;)
yeah.. home :)
stupid stupid fenn.. i guess i wont be at the cnc-workshop until tuesday at the earliest
thats ok though i think
wrong date bookmarked?
ordered a bunch of stuff to work on while there but shipped it to my home address
can't you change that?
and "3 day mail" takes more like 5 days
its already in the mail
went from louisville KY to oakland CA already
* alex_joni suddenly realizes fest is next week..
and i live in indiana (right next to louisville)
maybe i'll get something done before i show up at least
instead a pile of blue styrofoam :)
i think i was working myself sick anyway
have you changed the dev cvs?
yes its not cvs.linuxcnc.org
you should send cradek your ssh public key if you want to commit something
or i could do it for you if you're in a rush
do i even have an account on this new server?
well, no rush, i can grab the anon-cvs tree
it doesn't have a delay anymore, so that's good eh?
how do you mount a CD to extract the ISO ?
mount -o loop example.iso /mountpoint
oh, you want to get the .iso file itself?
dd if=/dev/cdrom of=example.iso
you want to create an iso file from a cd ?
Jymmm: I already did, thx
wonder what the maximum dns entry length is
Summary: he's english, she's german - you do the math
asdfqwega: she runs off with a french guy?
I've been reading it, and he'd be blessed if she did :P
asdfqwega: I think paul_c made new axis packages that fixed the problem you ran into
jepler: managed to sign that repo?
alex_joni: no, I just got home. haven't worked on it yet
and soon it's time to go have dinner with friends
* alex_joni needs to sign one too ..
cradek said he'd tell me how he signs his, but he never did
and I don't think he's around tonight
I think you just have to use gpg to generate Packages.gpg .. and make sure the signing key is trusted by apt
jepler - already came across those last night when I updated
asdfqwega: OK. does it work now?
wow that aiptek pencam was easy to get working
fenn: what version of pencam? are you runing linux there?
its the 1.3 megapixel without any sd card, and i'm running a bastardized fedora 3
fenn: how do you get it to take snapshots?
gpg --multifile -s binary/*.udeb
gpg: --sign does not yet work with --multifile
jepler - yes
jepler - I'm currently logged into my cnc box, and playing around with compiling emc2 and axis
LawrenceG: jmk says "vgrabbj works to grab a frame, but I think RGB must be swapped" and "v4lctl snap jpeg full foo.jpg" is supposed to take a snapshot
i just pressed the button and used gphoto2
has anyone run into a problem when updating your apt lists, that bzip2 gives errors?
fenn: import -window root shot.png could not work ?
asdfqwega: it's an apt error maybe ?
cradek: got the mech etching bits today. very nice looking - can't wait to try them
Help. I'm trying to get a pcmcia card running with ubuntu.
I can see the card with cardinfo and it says ne200 compatable
rayh: help I'm tryng to run an SD card on my ipaq :(
darn secure digital.. :/
trade you info.
dmesg says eth0: no IPv6 routers present.
you probably don't want ipv6 anyways
seems a generic msg that
okay. ifconfig says that eth0 has the correct hardware addy
I can ping the inet addy and get replies.
But get no lights on the plug to the card.
sounds like a hardware problem.
give me the hardware addy and eth0 without any errors except the no IPv6...
strange, I use pcmcia + wifi card in my laptop and it work perfecly
ne200 sounds like an old card .. generic
It is an older card.
if I remember well there are few models , ne2000 ne 2000A or so
maybe you have to pass some parameter loading the module
wich model is ?
we could try to google
I tried google/linux
everything seems to be working but just no comm on the wire.
looking if I can found something in italian ..
rayh: using the right cable?
Yes I think so.
make sure it's not crossover
modern NIC's might get away with that.. older don't
Oh. Right the eth cable is ordinary and tried several.
I do have a red crossover cable but that is not the one I'm using.
and this is going to a switch?
I do see one thing odd though. The card is netgear but the little adaptor cable says 3com
Right. To a switch that is running this box as well.
* alex_joni is clueless
is the card proven ?
I mean.. should it work?
how you doing ray
Good todd. You?
when are you going to roland's
I know that the card worked a couple years back but on another box.
after 1.5 days I built a kernel
I'm at roland's now.
i'll be down sunday night
alex_joni: slow computer?
how late are you going to be at roland's sunday
alex_joni: next is the RT kernel?
Probably be here till 7-8 or so.
no, this is the RT kernel
and it's not slow, but I vbuilt it 20 times I think
if i get in later i'll stop at your motel
till I figured all this madness out :(
i took picture's of the lathes
see ya later have to go eat
roltek, sounds good see you
Did source forge stop allowing online browsing of emc mail?
skunkworks: not that I know..
Odd - https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=6744
is it me or are some links missing :)
ACH GETTING SO COOL i BUILT A FIRE.
emc-developers (not yet archived) ???
oops was still caps lock
les_w: big fire :)
hey les. coming up to fest?
alex_joni: can you click on it?
we have a very unusual cut off closed low centered near ray.
like a huge, cold, hurricane
Some folk here thought I brought it with me to fest.
it has sucked cold air all the way to cuba.
not your ideal tomato planting weather...
les_w: good evening Sir
why hi lawrence!!
how are you?
not bad... nice wx here today, but it was a little chilly... just about T shirt wx
grass likes to grow
les_w: nice work :)
well it will get to the low 40s F HERE>>>AND VERY WINDY
shift key stuck.
all righty.. seems my custom cd now boots :)
[23:40:42] <LawrenceG> http://members.shaw.ca/swstuff/vna.html
my latest pic project... an antenna analyzer
with the new kernel even.. but it complains that it can't find modules :)
we'll see tomorrow.. night all
neat lawrence...I have to throw together a real time impedance analyzer
LawrenceG have you seen the poor mans spectrum analyizer?
Jymmm: yea... I was going to build one until I found an HP on ebay
[23:42:56] <Jymmm> http://www.science-workshop.com/
btw lawrence...today the air generator made 6v 20 ma with less than 5 psi....
I can run a PIC off of breathing through a soda straw
with no moving parts.
les_w now, make me a sandwich!
or 3 leds
lung powered flashlight?
les_w: apply the technology to make a rotorless wind generator ... I could use about 10kw one here
really though a tiny thing that can light lights and run microcontrollers off of a breath of air might be pretty useful
les_w: make a demo LED flashlight that has "blow me" as the instructions :}
in the shape of a penis
You'd want his and hers shapes.
guarnteed to sell!
I am making a demo to ship to chicago monday
but it lights a bunch of cluster leds with several watts
should be attention getting
les_w we want samples too!!!
ITW owns the technology...ask them
i'm just a poor hired gun
and I'm Mother Teresa
I do charge a small pittance to come up with this stuff though
a few crumbs of bread.... some rags to wear...
les_w: how are the plants ? :P
how's the audi?
anon the audi turned into a lexus.
but it is nice
I eat my crumbs of bread in it
It is amazingly quiet.
cannot tell if the engine is running when inside
without looking at instruments
hitting the pedal and going is a hint too I guess
Heh, I though les_w was saying his place (georgia) was quiet (not the car), and I'm like GAWD I WISH IT WAS HERE! Fscking neighbors are like babysitting 6 kids
it's way quiet outside too.
average 10 people per square mile
but i'm in a town
and it's 9000 people per square mile here
in chicago where I lived it was a bit more
Chicago goes vertical though
galesburg (??) where ray is is nice though
flew there a lot
les_w humid in ga ?
for $100 hamburger.
les_w did it come with a free BJ ?
normally extremely humid...but not now due to the cut off low
no...haha came with an airplane.
That's my main reason for not wanting to hit the east coast
well this area is a temperate rain forest
annual rainfall in the 70-90 inch range
hey dudes - Who knows about emc here ?
I can handle the heat (120F in AZ), but not the humidity at all.
yeah I can handle dry heat...been there
hi bigal. A couple might know something about emc here.
lab rats tell me emc2 is never going to work on our hardware
so will have to go for intel.
stepper or servo?
I run emc1 on a large commercial router.