#emc | Logs for 2006-05-07

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[00:14:28] <cradek> I get image errors when making the dvi - /home/jepler/src/emc-documentation/images/axis.png not found!
[00:14:40] <alex_joni> oh-oh
[00:14:47] <alex_joni> someone didn't use an relative path
[00:15:20] <alex_joni> cradek: replace /home/jepler/src/emc-documentation/ with ../../images/axis.png
[00:17:13] <alex_joni> filename ../../images/axis-homed.png
[00:17:19] <alex_joni> filename /home/jepler/src/emc-documentation/images/axis-machineorigin.png
[00:17:39] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/axis.lyx: fix image paths
[00:30:50] <jymm> jymm is now known as Jymmm
[00:34:02] <jepler> oh
[00:34:07] <jepler> all I did was select the file in the file browser
[00:34:21] <jepler> "duh"
[00:35:40] <cradek> it looks good
[00:35:45] <cradek> it's nice to have documentation
[00:35:51] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees
[00:36:45] <jepler> I argued with myself over whether to put it in emc cvs or axis cvs
[00:37:01] <jepler> I'm still not sure which is the right thing
[00:37:28] <cradek> I don't know either
[00:37:52] <cradek> it's easier for others to contribute if it's here
[00:37:58] <jepler> that's sure true
[00:38:26] <cradek> of course the same could be said for axis but let's save that discussion for another day
[00:40:00] <jepler> yes, let's
[00:41:13] <alex_joni> night all
[00:41:16] <jepler> night
[00:41:22] <cradek> bye alex
[00:41:51] <cradek> I don't know how you last so long
[00:42:30] <alex_joni> sometimes I don't either.. was up at 8:30 this morning (was at work till noon)
[00:43:11] <jepler> about the stuff fenn recently put on the wiki .. is it stuff that's not in the documentation? The one page I looked at, documenting the stepgen waveforms, I thought was in the lyx documents.
[00:44:26] <jmk_away> there's a lot of that
[00:44:29] <jmk_away> redundant docs
[00:44:33] <jepler> I don't know how handle that situation
[00:44:37] <alex_joni> jepler: it's taken from the sources, but it's in lyx too
[00:44:43] <jmk_away> to make up for the other areas where there are _no_ docs
[00:44:48] <jepler> jmk_away: hah
[00:53:29] <jepler> Which copy of the information about canned cycles should I remove? The one I wrote in emc2/gcode.lyx or the one in User_Gcode_Mill_Canned.lyx? The big advantage of the latter seems to be that it has images; the big disadvantage is that the images are very badly dithered.
[00:55:30] <CIA-4> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/User_Gcode_Mill_Canned.lyx: turn Subsection into Section to avoid item numbered x.0.1 Preliminary Motion
[01:03:37] <Jymmm> Is SOIC20 difficult to solder by hand?
[01:03:40] <jepler> actually the images are not bad, but lyx 1.3 thought it was supposed to display them in monochrome
[01:04:12] <jepler> Jymmm: no, not hard. I am bad at surface-mount soldering, but any SOICxx I would be able to solder
[01:04:12] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, depends on the hand, and the soldering iron
[01:04:45] <Jymmm> Something I'd want to do manually if I had to make say 20 or 30 of them?
[01:05:02] <SWPadnos> not a problem, but buy an extra chip or two ;)
[01:05:08] <Jymmm> heh
[01:05:21] <SWPadnos> once you get a technique down, they're pretty fast and easy
[01:05:26] <Jymmm> what about MLF20 ?
[01:05:38] <Jymmm> * Jymmm has no clue
[01:05:53] <jepler> I think MLF is much smaller than SOIC
[01:06:01] <SWPadnos> MLF have very tight pin spacing
[01:06:17] <SWPadnos> and the pins are more or less under the package, so they're very difficult
[01:06:25] <Jymmm> oh, heh.
[01:06:46] <jepler> the pitch of SOIC is only twice that of DIP
[01:07:00] <jepler> and the pins stick out quite a bit
[01:07:27] <Jymmm> So, I could route a PCB for soic 20 fairly easily?
[01:07:57] <SWPadnos> if you can route PCBs at all, then it shouldn't be a problem
[01:08:02] <jepler> also MLF20 (at least the attiny2313) says that the bottom pad should be soldered to GND. Good luck doing that with a soldering iron.
[01:08:16] <miniMess> bonne chance....
[01:08:25] <SWPadnos> you probably need 8 mil trace / space if you want to run traces between the pads
[01:08:29] <Jymmm> jepler that's EXACTLY what I'm looking at attiny2313
[01:08:38] <jepler> Jymmm: interesting
[01:09:10] <SWPadnos> you can do the ground contact if you make a reasonable size through hole, and hold the soldering iron on the bottom side of the board as you place the chip on the top side
[01:09:14] <SWPadnos> good luck ;)
[01:09:31] <Jymmm> no thanks
[01:09:33] <jepler> Jymmm: what's your project?
[01:09:34] <SWPadnos> right
[01:09:57] <SWPadnos> there may be a SSOP version of that chip, which is a little smaller than the SO, I think
[01:10:00] <miniMess> give up
[01:10:14] <Jymmm> jepler: LED chaser
[01:10:21] <SWPadnos> wuss
[01:10:30] <jepler> ah
[01:10:41] <SWPadnos> need PWM code?
[01:10:41] <miniMess> pk carry on
[01:10:43] <Jymmm> I only thought SMT, since SWPadnos's suggested transiter is SMT
[01:10:56] <miniMess> sorry
[01:11:08] <jepler> the project I got my (SOIC) tiny2313s is to do a 3xRGB LED .. I haven't gotten around to it yet
[01:11:26] <jepler> you'll find the SOIC20 to be much easier to solder than a SOT23 transistor. That's my experience, anyhow.
[01:11:31] <Jymmm> jepler how many are you goign to drive?
[01:11:46] <jepler> Jymmm: Just 3 RGB LEDs
[01:11:52] <Jymmm> dmesser : control your bot!
[01:12:16] <Jymmm> jepler: Ah, I was thinking those 5x7 amtrix RGB LED's
[01:12:16] <miniMess> what bot
[01:12:31] <jepler> Jymmm: I've seen those .. they look neat
[01:12:57] <Jymmm> jepler maxim-ic has a neat driver for the matrix leds, but haven't seen RGB yet.
[01:12:59] <jepler> or maybe the ones I saw were 8x8
[01:13:12] <jepler> they're whatever "sparkfun" is selling
[01:13:18] <jepler> I thought I remembered them being 8x8
[01:13:42] <miniMess> flashback..
[01:13:57] <SWPadnos> 7229's?
[01:14:08] <Jymmm> SWPadnos iirc, yes
[01:14:14] <SWPadnos> or MAX 7216 or something
[01:14:19] <Jymmm> 7219
[01:14:29] <Jymmm> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/1339
[01:14:42] <SWPadnos> there's also the 7221
[01:14:45] <Jymmm> you can dasiy chain them together too
[01:15:04] <Jymmm> but I think they've been replaced
[01:15:25] <SWPadnos> I'm looking at a board with a few of them on it
[01:15:40] <SWPadnos> they can do 64 "segments" each (8x8)
[01:16:07] <Jymmm> Um, 34 iirc, the replacement can do 64
[01:16:24] <Jymmm> oh, my bad
[01:16:26] <SWPadnos> 8 characters of 7segment + DP for the 7221
[01:17:32] <SWPadnos> use the 7221 - it's SPI instead of 3-wire
[01:17:43] <Jymmm> yeah
[01:17:45] <jepler> for my project I was just planning to use some discrete transistors but those maxim chips sound interesting too
[01:17:56] <Jymmm> jepler free sampels too
[01:18:22] <SWPadnos> if you don't need the scanning (or you don't need the MCU to do much else), then those are overkill
[01:18:36] <SWPadnos> they do have single-resistor current setting though, which is nice
[01:18:37] <jepler> will that work when the different LEDs have different forward voltages? It does sound like you regulate current which would be fine.
[01:18:52] <Jymmm> SWPadnos they also have software dimming too
[01:18:57] <SWPadnos> I know ;)
[01:19:14] <jepler> actually I want to set a different intensity for each LED so this probably isn't the thing to use
[01:19:15] <SWPadnos> I have a very large AVR program that uses those for the LEDs
[01:19:36] <SWPadnos> right - you need separate PWM (or similar) for that
[01:20:19] <Jymmm> jepler could you use a resistor array to "balance" out the different voltage needs?
[01:20:31] <SWPadnos> what a pain in the ass that would be
[01:20:37] <SWPadnos> you
[01:20:45] <SWPadnos> you'd be better off soldering MLF packages
[01:21:47] <Jymmm> heh
[01:22:36] <jepler> I figure I'll have one resistor for the R LEDs, one for the B LEDs, and one for the G LEDs, so that the max brightness at 1/3 duty cycle will be comparable (close to white). Then the software can make one color or another by turning off the LED earlier during the scan.
[01:22:56] <jepler> but I haven't even prototyped it so I might be barking up the wrong tree
[01:22:58] <SWPadnos> direct connect to the MCU, right?
[01:23:32] <Jymmm> http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/4539
[01:23:57] <Jymmm> that sounds more like what jepler needs
[01:24:50] <SWPadnos> that looks like a good part
[01:25:09] <jepler> SWPadnos: I don't think I can get enough current on the AVR IO pins
[01:25:29] <SWPadnos> oh - I meant through a transistor, not really direct connect. just no driver chip
[01:25:36] <jepler> right, just some transistors
[01:25:39] <SWPadnos> though you can do ~25 mA with the AVR
[01:26:29] <jmk_away> resistors for current limit?
[01:26:49] <SWPadnos> definitely
[01:27:01] <SWPadnos> or a CC driver chip
[01:27:15] <jmk_away> those are linear too aren't they?
[01:27:21] <jmk_away> seems inefficient
[01:27:45] <jepler> but 9 LEDs @ 20mA (3 x RGB) -> 180mA total. I don't think I can get that much from the AVR IOs
[01:27:57] <Jymmm> You can search maxim for "rgb led" and a few items pop up
[01:28:12] <jepler> jmk_away: efficiency doesn't matter much, this will be a wall-wart item
[01:29:11] <jmk_away> ok
[01:29:35] <SWPadnos> the Mega162 lists the max current for GND and VCC pins at 200mA - I'm not sure if that's aggregate or each
[01:29:37] <jmk_away> yeah, I guess 180mA times 2-3 volts in the resistor isn't too much heat
[01:30:10] <jepler> tiny2313 says 40mA per I/O pin, 200mA for GND and VCC. So I might be in the absolute maximum range after all
[01:30:11] <SWPadnos> ah - OK. it ts the total
[01:30:24] <jepler> but not by much
[01:30:50] <SWPadnos> true.
[01:30:59] <SWPadnos> transistors are better, for sure
[01:31:11] <jepler> I'd have 9 outputs, maybe I could just low-side drive all the LEDs. I have to add more resistors, but that's still fewer components overall.
[01:31:13] <SWPadnos> or a ULN something
[01:31:23] <jepler> too bad the ULN is 8 transistors, not 9.
[01:31:27] <SWPadnos> 2803 maybe
[01:31:34] <SWPadnos> add one discrete
[01:31:36] <jepler> yeah
[01:31:50] <jmk_away> 3x3 matrix perhaps?
[01:32:01] <SWPadnos> easier to do it static
[01:32:05] <SWPadnos> for the software, at least
[01:32:19] <jmk_away> thought you were pwming anyway
[01:32:25] <jepler> yeah I'm pwming
[01:32:39] <SWPadnos> though you can use hardware PWM to do the brightness control that way
[01:32:54] <jmk_away> guess it depends on what else the micro needs to do
[01:32:55] <SWPadnos> but probably not on the 2313
[01:33:02] <jepler> the 2313 only has 1 (2?) PWM output
[01:33:20] <jmk_away> you don't want to bit-bang it?
[01:33:21] <SWPadnos> ok. I'm kinda used to the Megas
[01:33:28] <jepler> It has to read RGB values from a serial interface and then display them on the LEDs
[01:33:46] <jepler> I figured on running the LEDs from main and reacting to serial on interrupt
[01:34:01] <SWPadnos> that makes a lot of sense
[01:34:46] <jmk_away> you have three sets of three LEDs and each set will be displaying a different RGB value?
[01:35:08] <jepler> so my code can be pretty crappy .. while(1) { turn 9 LEDs on; for(i=0; i<255; i++) { if(i > red_1) portb &= ~ BIT_RED_1; ... 8 other ifs ... } }
[01:35:15] <jepler> jmk_away: yes.
[01:35:21] <SWPadnos> eeewww
[01:35:42] <jepler> SWPadnos: go 'eew' if you like, it will work; and if it's slow I'll just put a 20MHz crystal on
[01:35:44] <SWPadnos> the tiny 2313 has 128 bytes of SRAM, right?
[01:35:50] <jepler> yes
[01:36:09] <SWPadnos> ok. hold on one sec
[01:36:11] <jmk_away> if you PWM at 100Hz nobody will see the flicker
[01:36:20] <jmk_away> you need 8 bits resolution?
[01:36:29] <jepler> I'm sure 8 bits is overkill
[01:36:37] <jmk_away> so you need 25KHz timing resolution
[01:37:01] <jepler> 4 bits or even 3 bits would be fine
[01:37:33] <SWPadnos> http://pastebin.com/702871
[01:37:47] <SWPadnos> part of the 16-channel LED controller software PWM
[01:38:12] <SWPadnos> you can get rid of the channelsize thing if you like - your channels will be 1 byte
[01:38:18] <SWPadnos> (probably)
[01:38:24] <jmk_away> ror = rotate right?
[01:38:27] <SWPadnos> yep
[01:38:42] <jmk_away> what is timer0?
[01:38:43] <SWPadnos> cp sets the carry if the value is higher (or lower)
[01:38:46] <SWPadnos> a temp
[01:39:04] <SWPadnos> ldd = load direct from SRAM
[01:39:13] <SWPadnos> with constant displacement
[01:39:14] <jmk_away> ok, carry gets the result of the compare, then rotated into timer0 which becomes the output byte
[01:39:16] <jepler> cute way to get the bits into timer0
[01:39:20] <SWPadnos> thanks
[01:39:46] <SWPadnos> this runs pretty fast, and at the end of the cycle, you can poll the serial port, since the LEDs will all be off
[01:40:04] <SWPadnos> it means you can never get to 100% brightness though
[01:40:25] <jmk_away> what am I missing - I don't actually see a loop
[01:40:29] <jepler> that's fine .. losing what, 1/256 brightless?
[01:40:33] <SWPadnos> that isn't the loop - sorry.
[01:40:40] <SWPadnos> I snipped a lot of code out
[01:40:52] <jmk_away> actually, 100% duty cycle is overrated
[01:40:56] <SWPadnos> depends on the time it takes to deal with the serial port
[01:40:57] <jmk_away> most LEDs are nonlineart
[01:41:02] <SWPadnos> very
[01:41:17] <SWPadnos> you get a big snap at 1 count duty cycle
[01:41:19] <jmk_away> 2x current for 50% of the time makes more light than 1x current continuous
[01:41:25] <SWPadnos> then it's kinda linear for a while
[01:41:43] <Jymmm> jepler you using ASM for yout avr?
[01:41:47] <Jymmm> your
[01:41:48] <jepler> Jymmm: no, I'll write it in "C"
[01:41:53] <jepler> avr-gcc
[01:41:54] <SWPadnos> persistence of vision (or something) makes the low end look quite a bit briughter than you'd think
[01:42:07] <Jymmm> jepler Ok, I'll borrow your notes then =)
[01:42:07] <SWPadnos> and the high end gets flattened out
[01:42:08] <jmk_away> SWP: that is mostly eyeball nonlinearity, not LED
[01:42:12] <SWPadnos> right
[01:42:45] <jmk_away> way back when I did some LED displays for a product
[01:42:53] <jmk_away> 6 digits, needed high brightness
[01:43:12] <jmk_away> multiplexed (1/6 duty cycle) gave far more brightness
[01:43:22] <SWPadnos> I * Vf = "junction power", the extra current makes light
[01:43:30] <SWPadnos> efficiency goes up with current as well
[01:43:37] <jmk_away> we were running something like 100mA per LED
[01:43:48] <SWPadnos> don't do that with the blue ones ;)
[01:44:03] <jmk_away> 600Hz interrupt, 8 bit port pulling down for the 7 segs + decimal pt
[01:44:10] <jepler> 100mA peak current, you mean?
[01:44:18] <jmk_away> PNP transistors pulling up, one per digit
[01:44:31] <jmk_away> yeah, 100mA peak, 16mA avg at 1/6 duty cycle
[01:44:32] <SWPadnos> 100 times/second, 1/6 duty (for a total of 600 Hz)
[01:45:10] <jmk_away> we controlled 48 segments with either 11 or 16 outputs
[01:45:40] <jmk_away> I can't recall if we used a 138 to decode a 3-bit digit number and drive the PNP, or just one pin per digit
[01:45:52] <jmk_away> make that 11 or 14 outputs
[01:46:24] <jmk_away> the pnp
[01:46:27] <jmk_away> oops
[01:46:44] <jmk_away> the pnp's had to handle up to 800mA
[01:47:12] <jmk_away> SWP: 100mA (peak) on a blue led will toast it?
[01:48:00] <jepler> for 9 LEDs doing just low-side driving sounds better and better the more I think about it
[01:48:03] <jepler> it's too bad 9 is more than 8
[01:48:25] <jepler> maybe I could make one LED GB or RB only
[01:48:27] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:48:31] <SWPadnos> one extra sbi/cbi
[01:48:41] <SWPadnos> or some C garbage ;)
[01:48:56] <jepler> yeah
[01:49:30] <jepler> C garbage it'll be
[01:50:20] <Jymmm> cool... tiny2313 has on board OSC too.
[01:51:12] <jepler> 8MHz?
[01:51:26] <Jymmm> looking now...
[01:51:47] <Jymmm> 4MHz I think
[01:51:57] <jepler> page 25
[01:51:58] <SWPadnos> 4 or 8 MHz
[01:52:29] <jepler> the default setting divides by 8 to give a 1.0MHz system clock
[01:53:01] <jmk_away> if you want (I know, you don't) 8 bit resolution, you need a 40 clock loop
[01:53:39] <jmk_away> it needs to be efficient C garbage
[01:53:55] <Jymmm> Ok, 4 or 8 MHz internal (default)
[01:54:00] <jepler> you calculated 40 * 256 * 100 ?
[01:54:06] <Jymmm> page 25 http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc2543.pdf
[01:54:12] <jmk_away> yeah
[01:54:18] <jmk_away> that is 1MHz, right?
[01:54:23] <jepler> yeah
[01:54:51] <jmk_away> you might be able to go as low as 50Hz pwm, but some people could see the flicker
[01:54:56] <jepler> but I can get 8MHz by changing the fuses
[01:55:35] <jmk_away> put a penny in that fuse holder JimBob, it ain't goin fast enough ;-)
[01:55:46] <jepler> hah
[01:56:01] <Jymmm> s/penny/.22 round/
[01:56:10] <jmk_away> no thanks
[01:56:26] <Jymmm> Yes, .22 round is a PERFECT fit too.
[01:56:29] <jmk_away> I wonder how much current it would take to cook one off
[01:56:38] <Jymmm> < 10A
[01:56:41] <jepler> 8MHz / 16 levels / 100 kHz = 5000 cycles
[01:56:44] <jmk_away> .22 should be a little loose, the fuses are 0.25
[01:57:02] <Jymmm> jmk_away They actually did it on mythbusters
[01:57:07] <jepler> Jymmm: .. and ?
[01:57:09] <jmk_away> what is the application? 16 levels doesn't seem like much
[01:57:16] <jmk_away> bang! ?
[01:57:26] <Jymmm> they shot the nuts off the dummy
[01:57:41] <jmk_away> I can believe it going off
[01:57:56] <jmk_away> I can't believe the bullet going far, the brass is much lighter and weaker
[01:57:57] <Jymmm> the fuse block was perfectly aimed at the crotch
[01:58:03] <jepler> jmk_away: a system status indicator
[01:58:06] <jmk_away> bits of brass flying every which way, yes
[01:58:11] <jepler> jmk_away: I don't know exactly what it'll indicate yet
[01:58:28] <jmk_away> psychadelic status?
[01:58:47] <jepler> it's just the first idea I came up with that combined some RGB LEDs and some RF transcievers
[01:58:55] <jmk_away> oh, ok
[01:59:00] <jepler> I'll make one indicator turn red and flash when cvs.linuxcnc.org goes down
[01:59:07] <jmk_away> I thought you had a specific need that you were trying to meet
[01:59:09] <jepler> something like that
[01:59:39] <jmk_away> how bout those displays that gradually fade from one color to another
[01:59:50] <SWPadnos> the big globes?
[02:00:02] <SWPadnos> that show when your stock portfolio is takning and that sort of thing
[02:00:04] <jmk_away> I saw one under a vodka bottle at a bar ;-)
[02:00:05] <SWPadnos> tanking
[02:00:07] <jepler> my last PC had a stupid "arbitrarily changing color" power LED. I disconnected it.
[02:00:18] <jepler> SWPadnos: yeah, this would be a little like that
[02:00:25] <jmk_away> like jepler's disconnected LED
[02:00:32] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:00:56] <SWPadnos> you can get that loop down to 2 cycles per channel, plus some setup (not much)
[02:01:09] <jmk_away> in C? ;-)
[02:01:23] <SWPadnos> use one counter, and use registers for all the brightness settings (low registers are OK)
[02:01:24] <jepler> It's a little bit like this thing http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/8301/ except that mine won't be nearly so lame as "a wifi bunny"
[02:01:25] <SWPadnos> ha!
[02:01:48] <SWPadnos> then the per-channel coedis just cp counter, thischannel / ror temp
[02:01:55] <SWPadnos> no ldd needed
[02:02:30] <SWPadnos> the only overhead is incrementing the counter (needed anyway since it's the loop counter)
[02:02:41] <SWPadnos> and outputting the result to the IO port
[02:02:58] <SWPadnos> (and then there's the serial data check, but anyway)
[02:04:03] <jepler> hm .. I must not have worked with AVRs lately, like since I installed ubuntu on my laptop. I don't have avr-gcc installed.
[02:04:26] <jmk_away> gotta do it in assembly then!
[02:04:34] <SWPadnos> hee hee
[02:05:07] <jepler> yeah and write a HAL module to do the low-voltage SPI programming
[02:05:10] <SWPadnos> strange that pastebin has no AVR ASM hilighting (though it does have MPLAB)
[02:05:43] <jmk_away> biab
[02:06:01] <SWPadnos> just for the heck of it, here's the whole program
[02:06:04] <SWPadnos> http://pastebin.com/702900
[02:06:23] <SWPadnos> 16-channel PWM, programmable sequences, fade-in / out, etc.
[02:06:27] <SWPadnos> ugly but it works
[02:06:34] <jepler> incidentally avr-gcc gets a 3-instruction sequence for each bit: cp / brsh / cbi
[02:06:41] <jepler> if(i>a) PORTB = PORTB & ~1;
[02:06:55] <jepler> :!!cp r18,r25
[02:06:56] <jepler> brsh .L4
[02:06:56] <jepler> cbi 56-0x20,0
[02:06:59] <SWPadnos> that's a variable number of cycles though
[02:07:09] <jepler> yeah that's true
[02:07:37] <SWPadnos> you should use a temp var instead
[02:07:49] <SWPadnos> then one PORTB = temp
[02:09:03] <jepler> that gives cp / brsh / andi
[02:09:13] <jepler> it's because of the brsh that the timing is variable, right?
[02:09:18] <SWPadnos> right - 3 cycles every time, but still 3 instructions
[02:09:20] <jepler> or are you just saying the bits won't all be set at the same time?
[02:09:26] <SWPadnos> no - the cbi is a 2-cycle instruction
[02:09:41] <SWPadnos> so if it's skipped, it's one cycle less than if it isn't skipped
[02:09:48] <SWPadnos> the andi is one cycle
[02:10:02] <jepler> oh ok .. now I understand
[02:10:41] <SWPadnos> the refresh would get slower the higher (or dimmer) the brightness
[02:11:10] <SWPadnos> depending on (i>a) or (a>i)
[02:11:28] <SWPadnos> that would be fun to see though :)
[02:13:41] <jepler> using 'ror' is just not a trick gcc is going to figure out
[02:13:51] <SWPadnos> probably true
[02:14:16] <jepler> heck I might not have figured it out :-P
[02:14:21] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:14:46] <Jymmm> a far cry from a BASIC STAMP =)
[02:14:56] <jepler> never did STAMP
[02:15:01] <SWPadnos> this code was able to do ~900 PWM cycles per second, on 16 channels, at 16 MHz
[02:15:08] <SWPadnos> you lost me at BASIC ;)
[02:15:15] <SWPadnos> I haven't used that since the Atari days
[02:15:32] <Jymmm> 10 LPRINT CHR$(12) 20 GOTO 10
[02:16:08] <SWPadnos> LPRINT - who had a printer?
[02:16:19] <SWPadnos> much more efficient to type:
[02:16:30] <Jymmm> The campus lab had a high speed dot-matrix =)
[02:16:33] <SWPadnos> 10 ? "I AM GOD" : goto 10
[02:16:46] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:16:58] <Jymmm> CHR$(12) == FormFeed
[02:17:08] <SWPadnos> yes
[02:18:00] <Jymmm> I could empty a case of paper in 34 seconds =)
[02:18:32] <SWPadnos> fast printer ;)
[02:18:43] <Jymmm> Oh yeah =)
[02:19:24] <Jymmm> AT90S2313 are being phased out, and it's what I have. oh well.
[02:20:23] <SWPadnos> do you have the 2313, or the tiny2313?
[02:20:32] <Jymmm> 2313
[02:20:47] <Jymmm> http://cgi.ebay.com/ATMEL-AT90S2313-10PC_W0QQitemZ7604058047QQcategoryZ50915QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[02:20:58] <SWPadnos> the tiny is the replacement, and the one we've been talking about (I don't think the 90S2313 had the internal oscillator)
[02:21:17] <SWPadnos> damn - that's expensive
[02:21:17] <jepler> #define DO_BIT(q) __asm__("cp %1, %2\nror %0" : "+r"(z) : "r"(i), "r"(q))
[02:21:26] <Jymmm> SWPadnos 10 pieces
[02:22:12] <jepler> I think -10PC means 10MHz, Plastic, Commercial temperature range
[02:22:25] <SWPadnos> 10 MHz, PDIP, Commercial
[02:22:27] <jepler> right
[02:22:29] <Jymmm> oh damn
[02:22:35] <SWPadnos> pinned, more or less
[02:22:44] <SWPadnos> though Y is SOIC, I think
[02:23:13] <SWPadnos> jymmm: http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=42255&Row=303822&Site=US
[02:25:01] <jepler> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9703917876&category=71585
[02:25:07] <jepler> "No Solder Socket fits Atmel AT90S2313 *Free Shipping *"
[02:25:19] <Jymmm> aint that a crock of shit
[02:25:29] <SWPadnos> heh - "The Socket itself Does need Soldering where the Atmel would be."
[02:25:35] <SWPadnos> duh
[02:26:55] <SWPadnos> I thought that eBay price looked a little high
[02:27:06] <Jymmm> at90s2313 has internal osc too
[02:27:12] <jepler> swp: thanks for the pwm code
[02:27:15] <SWPadnos> 1 MHz, I think
[02:27:16] <SWPadnos> sure
[02:27:30] <Jymmm> oh, and the tiny is 4/8 MHz ?
[02:27:41] <SWPadnos> "As used in multiple theater productions" ;)
[02:27:48] <Jymmm> =)
[02:27:53] <SWPadnos> I think that's one of the differences
[02:28:30] <SWPadnos> wait a sec - an oscillator isn't the same thing as an internal clock source
[02:28:52] <jepler> On the at90s2313 block diagram there's something marked "internal oscillator" but it only points to the watchdog timer
[02:29:02] <jepler> I thought you had to have some kind of external clock
[02:29:10] <SWPadnos> the 90S2313 has an oscillator, so you can use a crystal or ceramic resonator directly - you don't need an external crystal oscillator
[02:29:21] <SWPadnos> but it doesn't have an internal RC time reference
[02:29:31] <jepler> oh ok
[02:29:36] <jepler> I don't know the lingo then
[02:29:56] <SWPadnos> the "oscillator" is the 2 transistors that oscillate
[02:30:23] <SWPadnos> but a crystal or resonator helps keep it on frequency
[02:30:25] <Jymmm> in leiu of a external crystal?
[02:30:34] <SWPadnos> no, not on the 90S2313
[02:30:44] <SWPadnos> the tiny has an internal RC oscillator though
[02:30:49] <Jymmm> oh, I musta read it wrong then.
[02:31:19] <SWPadnos> they both say they have oscillators, so it can be confusing
[02:32:05] <Jymmm> the bastadgies!
[02:33:04] <SWPadnos> argh. labview really sucks
[02:33:21] <SWPadnos> especially when you're trying to get an FPGA, and embedded controller, and a PC all talking to each other
[02:33:29] <Jymmm> lol
[02:34:52] <SWPadnos> to compound the problem, it takes about 10 minutes to "recompile" the FPGA code
[02:34:59] <SWPadnos> for any minor change
[02:42:36] <jepler> hi skunkworks
[02:43:26] <skunkworks> Hi
[02:43:59] <skunkworks> drilled all the pcb holes without the .032 drill braking
[02:44:07] <skunkworks> breaking
[02:44:54] <skunkworks> the router we where using had .007 runout. :)
[02:55:02] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/pcbtop.JPG
[02:55:21] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/pcbbot.JPG
[02:56:56] <skunkworks> this was a test run with some single sided board. Next is the actual double sided stock.
[02:58:48] <skunkworks> finally
[04:19:41] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/hal_drivers.lyx: added ppmc driver info to HAL document
[04:20:23] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/hal_ppmc.c: fixed a couple of comments
[06:33:14] <A-L-P-H-A> lalalalallalalalalla
[06:38:01] <Jymmm> hey hey hey, good bye
[06:40:54] <Jymmm> wrong song?
[06:42:04] <A-L-P-H-A> yup
[06:42:05] <A-L-P-H-A> wrong song
[06:42:08] <A-L-P-H-A> drunk
[06:42:09] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[06:42:11] <A-L-P-H-A> happy drunk
[06:42:12] <A-L-P-H-A> he
[06:42:13] <A-L-P-H-A> he
[06:43:15] <Jymmm> lol
[06:43:53] <A-L-P-H-A> now calling a girl in california
[06:45:03] <A-L-P-H-A> all the stars are mine, sometimes.....
[06:45:08] <A-L-P-H-A> it's hard believe your remember me.
[06:45:17] <A-L-P-H-A> will you be my shouldar.
[06:45:20] <A-L-P-H-A> when I'm grey and older
[06:45:21] <A-L-P-H-A> ...
[06:45:26] <A-L-P-H-A> shit I can't type that fast.
[06:45:47] <A-L-P-H-A> cry....
[07:08:07] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Jymmmm
[08:54:03] <robin_sz> meep?
[09:24:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> robin_sz: meep
[09:24:37] <robin_sz> indeed
[09:24:44] <robin_sz> * robin_sz stretches
[09:34:01] <Bo^Dick> what about this huh! http://www.carmi.se/misterstarshine/img/trace.gif
[09:35:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ooh, that's nice
[09:35:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that would be applied voltage I take it?
[09:35:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> err
[09:36:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, since the current swings so fast the voltage must be very high (or the impedance low), which voltage are you running at/how many mH are the motors?
[09:42:56] <Bo^Dick> i've modeled them as 3mH each
[09:43:45] <Bo^Dick> now one could ask if it takes a microcontroller to do this and the answer is in fact no
[09:44:40] <Bo^Dick> what i will need help with is the powerstage
[09:45:19] <Bo^Dick> since i believe that TIP41C isn't the best option
[09:45:44] <Bo^Dick> http://www.carmi.se/misterstarshine/img/design.gif
[10:19:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> something liek that may be doable if you add stuff to stepgen.c
[10:19:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so that steptype 2 becomes more pwm-ish
[10:20:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that owuld give less electronics
[11:16:50] <rayh> Bo^Dick, pwm-ish sounds like freqgen right now.
[11:40:20] <Bo^Dick> sequence generation from the software renders in more cables between pc and stepper driver
[11:40:40] <Bo^Dick> i also think the timing is more accurate in hardware sequencing
[12:05:20] <CIA-4> 03flo-h 07HEAD * 10emc2/tcl/tkemc.tcl: added mor i18n support
[12:05:52] <Bo^Dick> besides that i didn't know the software could do the pwm part
[12:06:15] <Bo^Dick> this is after all closed loop pwm
[12:06:55] <Bo^Dick> but you must admit it's staggering this result can be achieved with no more parts than these
[12:07:50] <Bo^Dick> i bet this wouldn't be more expensive or difficult to make than Chris Radeks design on the PMinMO site
[12:08:22] <Bo^Dick> ...and that is advertised to work well for CNC purposes
[12:15:18] <fenn> christ radek didnt design it btw
[12:16:55] <jtr> Bo^Dick, does the simulation take package delays into account?
[12:18:32] <jtr> Looks like the inverter in the H-Bridge driver will have the lower transistor turn off after the upper one starts to turn on.
[12:21:49] <jtr> And I don't see that effect in the simulated waveform.
[12:29:14] <Bo^Dick> the simulation does take some of the delays into account. that's why you'll see some short spikes in the waveforms
[12:29:51] <Bo^Dick> hmm. sorry, the spikes aren't present in the trace
[12:30:36] <Bo^Dick> the spikes are there in the simulation if you look at the internal digital signals, which i unfortunately not have included in the trace
[12:31:30] <CIA-4> 03flo-h 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/tcl/tkemc.tcl: erge my i18n patches
[12:31:51] <Bo^Dick> do you think these delays will affect the performance of the driver? aren't ttl delays around 1/3┬Ás or something like that? is that big enough to cause trouble?
[12:34:18] <Bo^Dick> so i get cross conduction at times... hmmm
[12:34:43] <Bo^Dick> it would've been better if they both were off rather than this way
[12:37:17] <Bo^Dick> what's even worse is if the cross-conduction will confuse the pwm-sensing
[12:37:37] <Bo^Dick> but i don't think the comparator is that fast to be honest
[12:41:48] <rayh> Hi guys.
[12:43:18] <jtr> Hi Ray.
[12:43:59] <rayh> What you up to today?
[12:45:18] <jtr> Bo^Dick, I also wonder if you can drive the base-emitter junction into reverse breakdown.
[12:46:18] <giacus> hello folks :D
[12:46:24] <jtr> Ray, I'm avoiding work and discussing Bo^Dick's stepper driver.
[12:46:32] <rayh> hi giacus
[12:46:49] <rayh> Sounds like a good plan for a Sunday, jtr.
[12:47:19] <rayh> wow fenn, you were busy with the wiki yesterday.
[12:49:07] <fenn> i was procrastinating something else
[12:49:14] <fenn> its the only way i get anything done
[12:50:28] <giacus> * giacus has been busy with a concert http://www.giacus.org/photo/eventi/bsm/index.html
[12:50:33] <giacus> hi fenn :)
[12:50:39] <CIA-4> 03flo-h 07HEAD * 10emc2/tcl/bin/tkbackplot.tcl: added i18n support
[12:51:59] <fenn> i am worrying about how to mount limit switches
[12:52:06] <fenn> on a hexapod..
[12:52:25] <jtr> jtr is now known as jtr_away
[12:53:02] <Bo^Dick> jtr: well i rely somewhat on the simulation in that sense. in the end i'd like to achieve something like the L298 bridge driver but more powerful
[12:56:44] <rayh> There are some real issues with a hexapod and work envelope.
[12:57:30] <rayh> You can't expect limits to do anything but stop an axis from crashing itself.
[12:57:36] <fenn> ok i think we found a good solution for where to put the limit switches
[12:57:43] <fenn> rayh: right
[12:58:04] <fenn> rayh: emc doesnt have anything even approximating the idea of a work envelope either
[12:58:08] <rayh> singularities are another issue.
[12:58:41] <fenn> you dont really hit a singularity until you are outside the octahedral frame anyway, unless you are rotating a lot
[12:59:07] <rayh> Got a link to an image?
[12:59:14] <fenn> heh i just drew one actually
[12:59:23] <rayh> okay.
[12:59:32] <fenn> http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/irc/robocrane-illustration.png
[12:59:51] <Bo^Dick> i'm not sure i'm correct about this but how about four mosfets with a proper "charger" circuit. would that be more expensive than the L298 itself?
[13:00:25] <rayh> Is this a cable strut?
[13:01:19] <fenn> yes
[13:01:43] <rayh> Nice
[13:01:45] <fenn> if the center of mass goes beyond the hinge it starts flopping
[13:01:55] <fenn> heres a better image of a geometric singularity: http://synthetica.eng.uci.edu/~curtis/images/project2_4.jpg
[13:02:45] <fenn> the force on the actuator on the bottom is basically infinite, like in a pair of vise girps
[13:05:49] <rayh> That one will take some time to comprehend.
[13:07:38] <Bo^Dick> show me some real images of that crane
[13:08:32] <fenn> http://www1.atwiki.com/gingery_machines/pages/173.html
[13:08:36] <rayh> good steward platform paper by the same guy. http://synthetica.eng.uci.edu/~curtis/project2.html
[13:08:58] <fenn> http://www.isd.mel.nist.gov/projects/robocrane/gantry.html
[13:12:13] <rayh> A math formula like that represented by http://synthetica.eng.uci.edu/~curtis/images/project2_8.jpg
[13:12:44] <rayh> would be needed to describe singularities for each machine.
[13:13:04] <fenn> its hard to visualize a 6 dimensional surface :)
[13:13:04] <rayh> Then bound motion based on something just short of them.
[13:13:22] <rayh> Oh, you have that problem also?
[13:13:54] <fenn> it took a couple months just to wrap my brain around an octahedron
[13:15:05] <fenn> rifraf just made this: http://eds.dyndns.org:81/~rifraf/actuator/actuator-05.jpg
[13:15:39] <fenn> it needs thrust bearings though
[13:16:20] <rayh> Hallo flo-h. Thanks for all the work on msgcat.
[13:16:55] <flo-h> hallo, no problem
[13:18:14] <rayh> I have a hard time imagining using something like rifraf's actuator.
[13:18:47] <rayh> problem I see is co-locating the swivels at each end.
[13:19:26] <rayh> Or doing some sort of offset math.
[13:19:52] <fenn> hmm? he is using it in a robot arm: http://eds.dyndns.org:81/~rifraf/actuator/actuator-04.jpg
[13:20:01] <fenn> they just screw into hinges
[13:20:29] <fenn> are you talking about how a cardan joint doesnt quite act the same way as a spherical joint?
[13:20:51] <fenn> cardan == universal
[13:23:55] <rayh> Right.
[13:24:08] <rayh> That is a difficult image to sort out.
[13:24:27] <rayh> We did write some planar kinematics a long time ago.
[13:26:04] <rayh> They're in emc, Lukas is the name of em.
[13:26:16] <fenn> lukas?
[13:27:05] <fenn> ah lukaskins.c
[13:27:14] <CIA-4> 03flo-h 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/po/README: some ideas and instructions for .msg
[13:27:35] <rayh> yep
[13:28:46] <fenn> why is it called planar? do all three struts have to be in a plane?
[13:29:24] <rayh> They were for lukas's work.
[13:29:59] <rayh> There used to be a few images around of the actual device but I've not a clue where they went.
[13:35:05] <rayh> the longer I look at http://eds.dyndns.org:81/~rifraf/actuator/actuator-04.jpg the more lost I am.
[13:48:28] <robin_sz> hi
[13:51:35] <Bo^Dick> i haven't fully understood how this crane operates. publish an animation
[13:51:55] <Bo^Dick> why is it octahedra-shaped?
[13:57:26] <rayh> Bo^Dick, Looks to me like the robocrane page is incomplete.
[13:58:54] <Bo^Dick> but it must be based on an idea
[14:01:00] <Bo^Dick> what makes the robocrane more effective than a regular industrial robot?
[14:01:18] <SWPadnos> you can carry it out into the field, and still lift things
[14:01:30] <SWPadnos> they mention strength-to-weight ratio as one of the advantages
[14:02:24] <rayh> look at http://www.isd.mel.nist.gov/graphics/robocrane/air_craft_maintenance/aircraft_man.jpg
[14:02:33] <Bo^Dick> what about the accuracy
[14:03:04] <rayh> The platform is suspended from the building above the aircraft.
[14:03:17] <fenn> also good for launching to the moon and squirting out buildings
[14:03:27] <SWPadnos> squirt squirt squirt
[14:03:42] <rayh> Gravity does the work of holding the platform in place.
[14:04:33] <rayh> They built one of these for the navy that can cover about 1/3 of an aircraft carrier hull.
[14:04:44] <Bo^Dick> is there a particular advantage from the octahedral shape?
[14:05:01] <rayh> All the lines of force are directly along a strut.
[14:05:45] <Bo^Dick> it's goof for strength then
[14:05:59] <Bo^Dick> *good
[14:06:05] <fenn> also its easier to manufacture because all the parts are the same
[14:06:43] <SWPadnos> 1/3 of a "full size" aircraft carrier hull?
[14:07:08] <rayh> It wasn't an ocathedral
[14:07:27] <rayh> Built into a dry dock of some sort.
[14:07:46] <SWPadnos> ok - that would be a huge work area (~300 feet across)
[14:07:57] <SWPadnos> was that the stewart platform thing?
[14:08:21] <rayh> They did build one able to spray paint an entire B52.
[14:08:40] <rayh> Yes much like the little cable hexapod we had at NAMES a couple years.
[14:08:51] <SWPadnos> heh - I'd like to see the requirements / spec sheet for that
[14:09:10] <rayh> Will ran the entire thing from a pc104
[14:09:31] <rayh> There are pics around the nist site on the control box.
[14:09:43] <rayh> showing the control box.
[14:09:49] <SWPadnos> cool.
[14:09:59] <rayh> joystick
[14:10:01] <SWPadnos> skycam is basically the same thing
[14:10:10] <rayh> yes
[14:11:19] <SWPadnos> the pricks
[14:12:28] <rayh> The essential thing to get from all the NIST experimentation is that EMC and RCSLIB software is not constrained to a 2 axis Cartesian device.
[14:13:10] <SWPadnos> or even 3 axis ;)
[14:13:12] <rayh> 3 axis scuse me.
[14:13:15] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:13:43] <rayh> typ0ing 1o1 again.
[14:13:45] <fenn> did they ever machine anything with the little machine you had at names?
[14:14:02] <rayh> foam investments for casting.
[14:14:33] <rayh> Accuracy was a real issue when you run simple winches like they did.
[14:15:15] <rayh> The cable just lapped itself.
[14:15:16] <fenn> you'd need an encoder with a single loop around it
[14:15:45] <rayh> That would work. I've see it done with fishing line for a dro.
[14:16:04] <fenn> thats what i was thinking of too
[14:16:37] <SWPadnos> capstan roller connected to the encoder
[14:16:40] <rayh> A guy from AT&T talked about hf signals in the struts.
[14:17:25] <fenn> jerk-limited motion would help with that
[14:17:41] <rayh> He said he could test a phone wire anywhere in the world to within a few inches. And that from his office.
[14:17:58] <fenn> huh?
[14:18:13] <fenn> oh like an antenna
[14:18:21] <SWPadnos> TDR
[14:18:22] <rayh> Right or a ping.
[14:18:25] <fenn> heh i was thinking plucking the strut like a guitar string
[14:18:45] <rayh> That would probably work as well. Mechanical v electrical.
[14:19:00] <fenn> more as a problem to worry about than something to take advantage of
[14:19:21] <rayh> No tension would affect it
[14:19:27] <rayh> like a violin string.
[14:20:31] <rayh> NIST used laser interferometers on their big Ingersol hexapod.
[14:20:42] <rayh> but then they have the money they need for things like that.
[14:21:33] <fenn> and some reason to need that kind of accuracy
[14:54:59] <rayh> I stuck the start of a revised user handbook in http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?SandBox
[14:55:17] <rayh> If you get a chance, look it over and comment here.
[14:55:42] <SWPadnos> thanks. I had noticed that the first version had a lot of old emc1 stuff in it
[14:55:57] <fenn> so i was trying to add the pdfs to the websty, er website
[14:56:25] <fenn> oh crap i forgot what i was going to ask
[14:56:38] <SWPadnos> you can link directly to the cvs download url, if you don't want to manually copy the files every time there's a change
[14:56:50] <fenn> are there pdf's in cvs?
[14:57:04] <SWPadnos> but I think it would be better to copy them over, since the bandwidth is then from the hosting service
[14:57:15] <SWPadnos> there are some, under emc2/docs
[14:57:24] <fenn> i dont have write access either (i think)
[14:57:45] <SWPadnos> I suppose there could be a compile farm-like slot set up for the documents module as well
[14:57:54] <fenn> unless joomla has some sort of file attachment thing
[14:58:06] <SWPadnos> but I think the documentation is something that should be controlled better than CVS - it is for users, after all
[14:58:14] <SWPadnos> there's a way, but I don't know what it is
[14:58:23] <fenn> should be controlled better than cvs?
[14:58:48] <SWPadnos> yes - like release packages for the software, rather than telling everyone on the planet to use cvs
[14:58:59] <fenn> right
[14:59:19] <fenn> well ideally you'd release docs when you release the software
[14:59:20] <SWPadnos> the manuals should be released at manually-determined points, rather than the users getting a "snapshot" of the manual-in-progress when they download it
[14:59:25] <SWPadnos> rigth
[14:59:28] <SWPadnos> right
[15:00:13] <rayh> The stuff I put in SandBox is html made from the lyx master. Only temporary so non-lyx folk can read and comment.
[15:00:18] <fenn> does lyx html convert work for anyone?
[15:00:29] <rayh> That is what I just used.
[15:00:32] <SWPadnos> rayh, right - that's a good thing
[15:00:35] <fenn> jepler mentioned using hevea and i wondered why
[15:00:44] <fenn> lyx errors out when i do export html
[15:00:46] <fenn> but it works for pdf
[15:01:00] <rayh> there are several capable latex to html converters.
[15:01:13] <fenn> is a .lyx file a latex or what?
[15:01:38] <rayh> A lyx file is latex like
[15:01:39] <fenn> rayh: what is this lyx thing anyway :)
[15:01:49] <rayh> but it also has lyx specific sections.
[15:02:20] <rayh> lyx is a front end to wysiwym
[15:02:26] <rayh> latex
[15:02:36] <rayh> what you see is what you mean.
[15:03:11] <jepler> .lyx is a format that lyx can convert to latex
[15:03:14] <rayh> an example is, "I mean for this next section to be an itemized list.
[15:03:42] <jepler> fenn: I tried "tth", "hevea" and "latex2html". They all gave crappy results---for instance, latex2html gave only the first row of tables
[15:03:48] <jepler> fenn: hevea seemed to be the least worst
[15:04:04] <rayh> The final look of that itemized section will be different in different countries, in different formats like pdf or html.
[15:05:43] <rayh> Each of these packages has their own approach to navigation. Some are configurable so that each section or each subsection can be a separate page linked through next/previous and such.
[15:26:11] <SWPadnos> cool - ctrl-alt <left / right> switches desktops (by default)
[15:26:31] <SWPadnos> and up/down, if you have them configured in an array instead of side by side
[15:59:44] <fenn> ah so it does (i'm using icewm)
[16:08:07] <giacus> fenn: time ago I tried this: http://www.netmeister.org/apps/lyx2html/
[16:09:02] <giacus> I was tryng to modify the source in order to get xhtml code ..
[16:09:16] <giacus> source files are neat
[16:50:26] <giacus> logger_aj: bookmark
[16:50:26] <giacus> See http://81.196.65.201/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-05-07#T16-50-26
[17:55:32] <NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
[17:55:32] <NickServ> If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
[18:48:48] <skunkworks> Jymmmm: Drilled all the holes without the drill breaking.
[18:48:58] <Jymmmm> woohoo! dremel?
[18:49:11] <skunkworks> sears version of a rotozip
[18:49:17] <Jymmmm> ah, ok.
[18:49:27] <skunkworks> a lot quieter.
[18:49:31] <Jymmmm> lol
[18:49:31] <skunkworks> :)
[18:56:32] <Jymmmm> did the results turn out like you expected?
[19:05:54] <skunkworks> yes - I am happy with it so far - it was still with some single sided pcp - the next test will be the real thing.
[19:06:51] <skunkworks> have to face off the work area - it is pretty uneaven from all the crap we have machined.
[19:06:57] <skunkworks> (plywood top)
[19:07:18] <Jymmmm> Ah, I use MDF - it needs replacing too
[19:07:43] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/pcbbot.JPG
[19:07:54] <Jymmmm> but I'm redesigning the top so I can clamp down now.
[19:08:13] <skunkworks> was it you that was having issues with a keyway cutter?
[19:08:15] <Jymmmm> ah, very cool.
[19:08:56] <Jymmmm> Not really "issues" just didn't want to leave it rough finish
[19:09:31] <Jymmmm> POS keyway cutter that I don't trust too much =)
[19:09:35] <skunkworks> :)
[19:10:35] <Jymmmm> No, I'm making the top so I can easily drop in a bolt any time
[19:11:24] <Jymmmm> I have been using some thing stock lately and has a tendancy to bow on me
[19:24:28] <robin_sz> maybe ... just maybe I'll build a cnc plasma pipe and tube cutter before the laser one ...
[19:24:48] <robin_sz> pipe is easy ... its round :)
[19:26:07] <robin_sz> got quite a few jobs coming up that require 45deg mitres on 100mm pipe ... way too big for my cold saws
[19:28:44] <robin_sz> building a cnc tube cutter starts to make sense now
[19:33:05] <robin_sz> hey ray
[19:43:14] <rayh> Hi robin.
[19:47:09] <rayh> You working with the swiss these days?
[19:54:32] <robin_sz> hey ray
[19:58:21] <rayh> hey robin
[20:01:33] <giacus> hi rayh hi robin_sz :D
[20:01:47] <giacus> * giacus waves
[20:02:04] <giacus> what are you doing ?
[20:03:39] <rayh> Hi giacus.
[20:08:41] <giacus> how much yet for the EMC2 release ?
[20:08:49] <SWPadnos> $150
[20:08:55] <giacus> anyone got any idea ?
[20:09:09] <giacus> SWPadnos: :) what $ 150 ?
[20:09:19] <SWPadnos> heh - you asked "how much" ;)
[20:09:30] <giacus> how much time ?
[20:09:34] <giacus> is it correct ?
[20:09:43] <giacus> oh.. maybe how long time ?
[20:09:55] <SWPadnos> "how long until release?" or something like that
[20:10:09] <giacus> ok ..
[20:10:13] <cradek> I hope today, but no promises
[20:10:18] <SWPadnos> but english is so good that I can deliberately misunderstand almost anything ;)
[20:10:41] <giacus> cradek: really ? would be nice
[20:10:42] <SWPadnos> ah - cradek. I found the name of that watch book
[20:10:52] <SWPadnos> "Watches International" - more or less yearly
[20:11:03] <cradek> oh I think I have seen that
[20:11:13] <SWPadnos> there's a lot of cool stuff in there
[20:11:15] <cradek> I think it's all new production
[20:11:20] <SWPadnos> and a lot of diamond-studded stuff as well ;)
[20:11:21] <cradek> I like the old stuff too
[20:11:29] <SWPadnos> there's history also
[20:11:40] <cradek> yeah the diamondy watches are very ugly
[20:11:58] <SWPadnos> yep. there was one that was completely covered - 16.70 carats total weight
[20:12:37] <cradek> yuck
[20:14:30] <giacus> are you using the cnc to machine diamonds ? O_O
[20:14:32] <giacus> hehe
[20:14:42] <SWPadnos> easier to use a hammer
[20:14:50] <giacus> what's happening to rayh and robin ??
[20:14:54] <giacus> :D
[20:15:03] <giacus> this is weird
[20:16:50] <giacus> [21:44]<rayh> Hi robin. <robin_sz> hey ray [21:55]<robin_sz> hey ray [21:59]<rayh> hey robin *** rayh (n=rayh@dial-pn1-41.wic.up.net) has quit: Read error: 104 *** robin_sz (n=robin@adsl.redpoint.org.uk) has quit: Read error: 110
[20:16:53] <giacus> O_O
[20:17:23] <SWPadnos> I suspect Ray lost his connection. read error:110 isn't the same as "good bye"
[20:17:31] <SWPadnos> possibly the same with Robin
[20:17:38] <giacus> right :)
[20:20:01] <SWPadnos> ni Ray. maybe modem # 45 will work better than #41
[20:20:21] <SWPadnos> s/ni/hi/
[20:20:31] <SWPadnos> I am not a knight who says "ni"
[20:20:58] <alex_joni> ni
[20:21:02] <SWPadnos> ni
[20:21:04] <SWPadnos> damn
[20:25:23] <alex_joni> ni, pang and nee-wong
[20:27:12] <SWPadnos> icky icky acky-back
[20:27:55] <rayh> come back ere I'll bite your kneecap.
[20:28:49] <SWPadnos> it's jus a flesh woulnd
[20:28:52] <SWPadnos> wound
[20:28:59] <alex_joni> you said the word
[20:29:06] <SWPadnos> what is it?
[20:29:13] <alex_joni> aaah.. you said it again
[20:29:17] <SWPadnos> now you said it
[20:29:56] <skunkworks> cradek: got a second?
[20:29:57] <alex_joni> logger_aj: bookmark
[20:29:57] <alex_joni> See http://81.196.65.201/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-05-07#T20-29-57
[20:30:02] <alex_joni> gotta save this
[20:30:06] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:30:35] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/debian/emc2.files: halshow
[20:30:35] <Bo^Dick> are the clock pulses from the emc software a 50% duty cycle?
[20:30:41] <cradek> skunkworks: what's up?
[20:30:48] <SWPadnos> Bo^Dick, not generally
[20:30:59] <SWPadnos> in fact, probably not ever
[20:32:00] <skunkworks> cradek: crap I have to go. It was and eagle question about making a ground plane - sort of. How do you make a net fill in.
[20:32:23] <cradek> draw a polygon and run ratsnest
[20:32:38] <cradek> might have to name it GND or something, I forget exactly
[20:32:38] <skunkworks> that easy?
[20:32:43] <cradek> yeah
[20:32:47] <skunkworks> ok - I will play - thanks.
[20:32:52] <cradek> NB not a rectangle, a polygon
[20:32:58] <SWPadnos> is emccalib now called emctuning?
[20:33:42] <SWPadnos> hm - no it isn't. what are emctesting.tcl and emctuning.tcl?
[20:36:36] <rayh> Those are obsolete scripts from emc(1)
[20:36:53] <rayh> they are grayed out in the tkemc menu where they used to show.
[20:37:14] <SWPadnos> ok. I just looked at one, and it seemed pretty bare (non-functional)
[20:37:30] <SWPadnos> can they be removed from the packages? (is it worth it?)
[20:37:34] <rayh> wah. I just got emc2 running on an old gateway laptop.
[20:37:43] <SWPadnos> cool.
[20:38:10] <SWPadnos> I gave up on Dapper (for now), and did the ubuntu install on a PCI-only machine (with PCI parport)
[20:38:15] <rayh> I changed the style of tickle interaction from emccalib as a separate executable and the others as sourced files.
[20:38:30] <rayh> That made emccalib easier to execute from any kind of menu.
[20:38:40] <A-L-P-H-A> sup folks?
[20:38:47] <robin_> dood!
[20:39:06] <alex_joni> nuttin
[20:39:07] <SWPadnos> um - that's "d00d!"
[20:39:14] <A-L-P-H-A> sweeeeet!
[20:39:18] <robin_> l33t
[20:39:28] <SWPadnos> 5\/\/3333337!
[20:39:55] <robin_> so ... now I am contemplating a CNC plasma for round tube
[20:40:29] <SWPadnos> http://rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectp.cgi?dialect=hckr&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.linuxcnc.org
[20:40:31] <robin_> I already have some 2.5m ballscrews and some rails ... a couple of monster size AC servos
[20:41:25] <giacus> uh..
[20:41:31] <K4ts> hello
[20:41:37] <giacus> hello
[20:41:56] <alex_joni> http/:/bdi4remc... ourproJect, lolollolol rog/ <- lol
[20:42:15] <SWPadnos> for the swedes: http://rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectp.cgi?dialect=bork&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.linuxcnc.org
[20:42:16] <giacus> :)
[20:43:07] <giacus> SWPadnos: nice job
[20:43:14] <SWPadnos> I like that site ;)
[20:44:06] <CIA-4> 03flo-h 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/tcl/bin/tkbackplot.tcl: merge i18n suport patch
[20:44:50] <cradek> arg
[20:45:12] <alex_joni> more i18n ?
[20:47:15] <alex_joni> this one looks safe
[20:47:32] <cradek> I agree, but trying to package a moving target
[20:50:21] <rayh> something about a fart in a mitten comes to mind.
[20:50:32] <Bo^Dick> cradek: what voltage and current ratings are your stepper motors?
[20:51:44] <cradek> `Running around like a fart in a mitten.' Anxious, overworked, acting at random with little effect.
[20:52:06] <cradek> * cradek sometimes has to use google to translate from rayspeak
[20:53:03] <Bo^Dick> ?
[20:53:25] <cradek> Bo^Dick: sorry, I'm not sure, I run them at about 48v
[20:54:24] <alex_joni> cradek: thanks for the translation
[20:54:30] <cradek> welcome
[20:54:30] <Bo^Dick> they have a current rating don't they
[20:54:49] <cradek> Bo^Dick: sorry, I don't know what it is
[20:55:11] <giacus> Bo^Dick: it should be on the datasheet, if it exist ..
[20:55:27] <giacus> no ?
[20:56:07] <Bo^Dick> the reason that i wanna know is that i wonder if the 3955 circuit could be suitable for CNC purposes. it has only 1.5 amps current rating though
[20:56:45] <alex_joni> 1.5 amps is plenty for some apps
[20:56:49] <rayh> cradek you might add "only marginally contained" to that definition.
[20:56:57] <Bo^Dick> cradek: allright, what motors do you use?
[20:57:19] <alex_joni> but you need to start the other way around, decide what you want to build (what machine), then you should know how much power you need, what kind of motors, etc
[20:58:31] <giacus> Bo^Dick: most popoular steppers are 2A 200 steps/rev. I think
[20:58:44] <giacus> I use that, I'm able to machine wood
[20:58:55] <Bo^Dick> that is slightly more than the 3955 can handle :(
[20:59:06] <giacus> it could also depend if you use reductors
[20:59:16] <giacus> or not
[21:03:49] <giacus> that IC seems to me ok for a big printer
[21:03:58] <alex_joni> or a plotter
[21:04:07] <giacus> yeah
[21:17:56] <robin_> robin_ is now known as robin_sz
[21:30:11] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/docs/Hal_Introduction.pdf: updated to latest version
[21:34:53] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/etch-servo/README: updated README's
[21:34:54] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/sim/README: updated README's
[21:35:55] <robin_sz> * robin_sz ponders
[21:52:46] <rayh> added stuff concerning off line repositories in the wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2
[21:53:00] <rayh> Be nice if someone could test my thoughts.
[21:53:17] <alex_joni> rayh: I will in a minute, want to finish this first
[21:53:24] <jmk_away> jmk_away is now known as jmkasunich
[21:54:21] <rayh> Thanks alex.
[21:57:12] <Jymmmm> I'm trying to figure out a way to clamp thin flat stock down (bows), but having a hard time figuring out the "clamps" itself
[21:57:33] <Jymmmm> I dont' want to make 50,000 of them for various thickness.
[21:58:40] <Jymmmm> oh well... trial and error I suppose.
[21:59:06] <cradek> tape
[21:59:19] <cradek> vacuum
[21:59:28] <robin_sz> Jymmmm, two ways
[21:59:33] <robin_sz> 1 glue
[21:59:34] <Jymmmm> tape is icky (24"x24")
[21:59:36] <robin_sz> 2 vacuum
[21:59:48] <Jymmmm> can't do vacuum as they are cutouts
[21:59:49] <alex_joni> increased gravity field
[21:59:54] <robin_sz> no you can
[21:59:58] <Jymmmm> alex_joni that'll work!
[22:00:04] <cradek> ok 3 ways :-)
[22:00:10] <robin_sz> vac works fine with cutouts
[22:00:39] <robin_sz> make a vac box with a 3mm MDF top board on supports
[22:00:58] <robin_sz> vac it down even if it has holes all over the place
[22:01:37] <robin_sz> spraymount works too
[22:01:46] <cradek> you could get increased gravity by adding lots of mass under the table
[22:01:57] <robin_sz> a tacky sort of glue used for mounting photos
[22:02:07] <Jymmmm> * Jymmmm ebay's for a black hole to stick under the table
[22:02:13] <cradek> I should try the spray for pcbs
[22:02:22] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:02:30] <Jymmmm> Well, this is what I was thinking so far....
[22:03:15] <robin_sz> were you thinking of a vacuum clamp?
[22:04:47] <Jymmmm> Grid of holes on the table. these holes are really crosses that a 10/32 hex bolt head can fit thru and slide into. Then have some sort of clamp maybe 1"x6" with a slot in it. Two stacked on top of each other. One ot to keep the stock from moving sideways, the other to keep it down on the table
[22:05:23] <Jymmmm> then a wingnut to tighten down.
[22:06:11] <robin_sz> that might work
[22:06:20] <robin_sz> might still bow in the middle though
[22:06:48] <robin_sz> vacuum clamping the the way to go for thin stuff every time
[22:06:59] <Jymmmm> Yeah, I was thinking I could use a piece of angle or 1"x2" wood across the stock
[22:08:09] <Jymmmm> What REALLY sucks, is that I have no clearnace on two sides to clamp down.
[22:08:20] <Jymmmm> mabye 1/8"
[22:11:01] <robin_sz> well, that where vac clamps really win
[22:11:41] <Jymmmm> dont you ned the foam stuff?
[22:11:49] <robin_sz> foam?
[22:11:55] <robin_sz> oh, for like seals?
[22:11:57] <robin_sz> nah
[22:12:10] <robin_sz> take a base ...
[22:12:16] <Jymmmm> you still carve the grid though, right?
[22:12:38] <robin_sz> machine a grid leaving some supports all aver the place right
[22:12:51] <robin_sz> put a 3mm skin of MDF on top
[22:12:52] <Jymmmm> to help distrubute the vacuum I mean
[22:13:05] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[22:13:19] <robin_sz> there are two ways basically
[22:13:21] <Jymmmm> LOL... I thought you said 3cm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[22:13:27] <Jymmmm> I was goin DAMN!
[22:13:49] <robin_sz> a grid into which you put a rubber strip and then make it seal all around the edges
[22:13:57] <robin_sz> thats good for bigger thick things
[22:14:22] <robin_sz> or just a semi-permable base sheet .. theres enough vacuum over the surface to make it work
[22:14:51] <robin_sz> you can actually vacuum two pieces of 19mm mdf, one on top of another on a vac clamp table ...
[22:15:46] <robin_sz> if you are only using half of the table, just put a piece of plastic sheet, like a bin liner onthe unused bit
[22:15:54] <Jymmmm> yeah
[22:16:19] <robin_sz> its OK for thin flat stuff, not so good for liek wooden blocks .. they ned the grid and seal stuff
[22:16:55] <Jymmmm> I'm thinking my clamp idea might work for both thin and thick stock.
[22:17:01] <robin_sz> now, you just have to find a vacuum pump ;)
[22:17:10] <Jymmmm> I just need to figure out what to use for the clamps
[22:17:26] <Jymmmm> I've been looking on ebay for one, still expensive
[22:17:37] <Jymmmm> vac pump that is
[22:17:40] <robin_sz> its not a new idea, people usually do that system you describe with a slotted table
[22:17:57] <robin_sz> household vac cleaner works OK, but tends to get hot after a while
[22:18:13] <Jymmmm> Yeah I found the aluminum rails cheap, but doesn't allow for various sizes
[22:18:30] <alex_joni> robin_sz: you need to cool it , cause the air isn't flowing through it anymore to cool itself
[22:18:34] <robin_sz> search for "reitschle" for vac pumps
[22:18:43] <robin_sz> alex_joni, yeah, mine smoked
[22:18:50] <robin_sz> I bought a reitschle
[22:18:56] <alex_joni> heh, take a big bucket of oil, drop it inside
[22:19:27] <alex_joni> well, except the air intake
[22:19:43] <robin_sz> i ahve always been amazed how well vac clamos work
[22:19:58] <robin_sz> take Jymmmms 24x24 piece
[22:20:09] <Jymmmm> I have some pics of a 2000 gallon SS tank colapsing under vacuum
[22:21:01] <robin_sz> even if you just make 3psi of vac (0.2 bar) you'll get 1700 lbs of clamping force
[22:21:48] <Jymmmm> It always amazes me how much force vacuum has over compressed air
[22:21:56] <robin_sz> eh?
[22:22:09] <robin_sz> other way around surely?
[22:22:33] <alex_joni> Jymmmm: it's a matter of force
[22:22:47] <robin_sz> a perfect vacuum on a 1" square makes 15 pounds .. maximum ever
[22:22:49] <alex_joni> you can get the same force both ways.. just no way of telling when they are the same
[22:22:54] <asdfqwega> logger_aj, bookmark
[22:22:54] <asdfqwega> See http://81.196.65.201/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-05-07#T22-22-54
[22:23:10] <Jymmmm> I've never seen a 2000 gallon SS tank pop a hole in it from compressed air, but I have seen it get crushed like a soda can from vacuum
[22:23:11] <robin_sz> you can easily get 10 times that with compressed air ...
[22:23:34] <robin_sz> a vacuum is limited to 1 bar
[22:23:52] <robin_sz> compression wise, you can just keep going until you get what you need
[22:24:19] <Jymmmm> These vacuum pumps where just to move wine to the bottling line, nothing that fancy
[22:24:27] <robin_sz> right
[22:24:39] <robin_sz> and someone left the air lock blocked?
[22:24:46] <Jymmmm> and had plastic reenforced hoses
[22:25:02] <Jymmmm> nah, it ran dry =)
[22:25:11] <robin_sz> yeah 15psi will crush a tank easy
[22:25:30] <Jymmmm> that was a 5000 gal ss tank
[22:25:40] <robin_sz> bigger makes it easier
[22:26:25] <Jymmmm> sounded SO weird too
[22:26:40] <robin_sz> sounded like ... money dissappearing?
[22:27:04] <Jymmmm> nah, still usable, just a part of the top collapsed
[22:27:42] <asdfqwega> Inflate it until it pops back out
[22:28:08] <Jymmmm> See... that's what I mean.. you couldn't do that with compressed air
[22:28:19] <asdfqwega> ...and while you do that, I'll be standing behind my blast shield
[22:28:40] <Jymmmm> shit... I'd be on the other side of the hill
[22:29:17] <asdfqwega> You could do it with hydraulic force
[22:29:46] <Jymmmm> that I could see
[22:29:48] <asdfqwega> ...theoretically
[22:30:10] <Jymmmm> 6000 gallons of hydraulic fluid
[22:30:23] <asdfqwega> water is cheaper
[22:30:42] <Jymmmm> could you use water?
[22:31:19] <asdfqwega> Jeez, where do you the term 'hydraulic' came from?
[22:31:24] <alex_joni> Jymmmm: any fluid is not compressable, so it behaves the same
[22:31:29] <Jymmmm> tractors =)
[22:31:36] <Jymmmm> alex_joni ah, ok.
[22:32:08] <alex_joni> but they usually don't use water because of corrosion
[22:32:17] <alex_joni> andd because it tends to freeze
[22:32:35] <asdfqwega> and bacteria/algae
[22:34:39] <Jymmmm> Ok, I think I'm gonna test out my cross holes =)
[22:34:49] <robin_sz> Jymmmm, OK, heres a challenge then ... I have here a standard propane cylinder
[22:35:01] <robin_sz> you can try to crush it with a vacuum ....
[22:35:15] <robin_sz> (you cant ...)
[22:35:25] <robin_sz> I'll crush it with compressed air
[22:35:35] <Jymmmm> crush?
[22:35:41] <Jymmmm> or explode
[22:35:48] <robin_sz> crush
[22:36:15] <Jymmmm> in a chamber of some sort?
[22:36:19] <robin_sz> sure
[22:36:27] <Jymmmm> ok, I was gonna say =)
[22:36:37] <robin_sz> so .. you see my point?
[22:36:59] <robin_sz> a vacuum from the inside is just 15 psi of compressed air from the outside
[22:37:12] <robin_sz> but vacuum only goes up to 15psi
[22:37:22] <alex_joni> rayh: jfyi, I looked at the wiki page, and made some minor adjustments.. looks great
[22:37:28] <robin_sz> compressed air goes as high as you want to
[22:37:57] <Jymmmm> theres a limit to vacuum?
[22:38:01] <robin_sz> yes
[22:38:13] <robin_sz> you can go to 0, and no more
[22:38:14] <Jymmmm> atmosphere?
[22:38:20] <robin_sz> 0 pressure on the insode
[22:38:23] <Jymmmm> realted to
[22:38:35] <robin_sz> 1 atmosphere pressing from the outside
[22:38:48] <robin_sz> thats your lot
[22:38:58] <Jymmmm> ok, so you could get more vacuum 10 miles down in the ocean then
[22:39:18] <robin_sz> well, not really, but you get more pressure form the outside
[22:39:32] <Jymmmm> ok, I'm getting it now
[22:39:46] <robin_sz> it would nt make much diff if it was a vac or 1 atmosphre insoide when you have 50 atmospheres on the outisde
[22:40:15] <robin_sz> effectively you get 50 from the outisde with 1 bar inside = 49 effective
[22:40:24] <robin_sz> vac the insoide down to zero ...
[22:40:33] <robin_sz> and you get 50 effective
[22:41:05] <asdfqwega> as a kid I loved a science video, where they sent down a deep sea sample vessel
[22:41:22] <asdfqwega> they brought the thing back up, and then opened the valve
[22:41:30] <robin_sz> heh
[22:41:44] <robin_sz> an idiot I know suggested that as a means of power
[22:41:56] <robin_sz> a big chain, lots of canisters ...
[22:42:18] <robin_sz> lower them, pressurise them, bring them back up .. releas the prssure to drive an engine ...
[22:42:21] <robin_sz> idiot.
[22:42:26] <asdfqwega> Oh, there's quite a bit that can be done...just not cost-effective
[22:42:43] <robin_sz> it would work, but would require more energy in than out
[22:42:55] <asdfqwega> For instance, we could convert all our automobiles to run on compressed air
[22:43:16] <robin_sz> but you have to compress the air in the firstl place ...
[22:43:29] <asdfqwega> Yeah, but most people don't grasp that
[22:43:58] <robin_sz> this guy failed to grasp that to get the canisters down deep, because they go in full fo air, woudl require force ...
[22:44:00] <asdfqwega> Like the whole steaming solid-waste pile deal with the 'hydrogen economy'
[22:44:02] <robin_sz> energy ...
[22:44:32] <robin_sz> the energy required to get them down there would be equalt to the sotred energy, minus all the frictional and drag losses
[22:44:50] <robin_sz> so you could never get back what you put in
[22:45:19] <asdfqwega> The canisters would have to be full of water - neutral to negative buoyancy
[22:45:34] <robin_sz> thwey have to go in full of air
[22:45:44] <robin_sz> the water then compresses the air as it enters
[22:45:54] <robin_sz> thats how the enrgey is stored .. as a big air spring
[22:46:22] <robin_sz> as they come out they are full of water, and a tiny, but highly compressed pocket of air
[22:46:29] <asdfqwega> My thinking was you use not air spring, but steel spring - the canister
[22:47:06] <robin_sz> wont work
[22:47:26] <asdfqwega> even if you used air, just weight the thing to neutral buoyancy
[22:47:54] <robin_sz> ok, ... going in its neutral OK.
[22:48:03] <robin_sz> so they go down ...
[22:48:08] <robin_sz> and fill with water ...
[22:48:12] <robin_sz> now they are heavy ...
[22:48:14] <asdfqwega> ...and it's time to derail this tangent, before we start getting silly :P
[22:48:15] <robin_sz> NEXT!
[22:48:56] <robin_sz> so ...
[22:49:03] <robin_sz> back to CNC tube cutters :)
[22:49:44] <robin_sz> round tube is the one to ty first I think
[22:50:55] <robin_sz> the question is ...
[22:51:00] <robin_sz> the rotational axis ...
[22:51:18] <robin_sz> basically a powered chuck on a tailstock ...
[22:51:45] <robin_sz> power rotate the chuck and the support ring on the head, or just the chuck?
[22:52:14] <robin_sz> I suspect both.
[22:52:36] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/ (4 files): last minute documentation cleanup prior to 2.0.0 release
[22:53:02] <robin_sz> boggle .. 2.0.0 ... a real release?
[22:53:10] <alex_joni> robin_sz: indeed
[22:53:21] <robin_sz> does it like ...
[22:53:22] <robin_sz> well,
[22:53:26] <robin_sz> you know ...
[22:53:30] <alex_joni> ?
[22:53:33] <robin_sz> work?
[22:53:44] <alex_joni> it kinda has the last few weeks
[22:53:54] <robin_sz> wow
[22:54:08] <asdfqwega> great googley moogley
[22:54:13] <robin_sz> almost worth buying a servo card for :)
[22:54:16] <alex_joni> actually even longer, but it's got more stable
[22:55:04] <asdfqwega> "We've been busy in your ab-sense, Doc-tor Free-man."
[22:55:35] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/docs/Hal_Introduction.pdf: latest pdf into branch for release
[22:55:39] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/docs/man/man1/halcmd.1: cleanup for release
[22:56:34] <asdfqwega> Heck, I'm going to have to get the new computer setup to try it
[22:58:41] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/Hal_Introduction.pdf: latest Hal_Intro.pdf
[22:59:09] <robin_sz> sigh ...
[22:59:24] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/docs/man/man1/halmeter.1: cleanup for release
[22:59:25] <robin_sz> did anyone get anywhaere with a cheap servo card design?
[22:59:33] <robin_sz> or is it motenc or nothing?
[22:59:36] <jmkasunich> define cheap
[22:59:43] <jmkasunich> m5i20 is $200
[22:59:52] <robin_sz> 200 USD is OK
[23:00:04] <robin_sz> m5120? wassatt?
[23:00:14] <jmkasunich> I think it needs an analog breakout board, dunno how much extra that costs
[23:00:32] <robin_sz> URL?
[23:00:32] <jmkasunich> basically an FPGA on a PCI card, you can load whatever you want into it
[23:00:42] <jmkasunich> google mesa electronics
[23:00:48] <jmkasunich> they call it the "anything I/O board"
[23:00:51] <robin_sz> so no D-A then?
[23:01:16] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/docs/man/man1/hal_joystick.1: cleanup for release
[23:01:18] <jmkasunich> generates high frequency PWM, the analog breakout board filters that to an analog value
[23:01:28] <jmkasunich> clever IMO
[23:04:17] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/Master_HAL.lyx: justify appendix
[23:04:26] <robin_sz> yep
[23:04:45] <robin_sz> 4ch output is only $69 .. $269 and you are done.
[23:04:55] <robin_sz> and emc supports it?
[23:05:31] <alex_joni> emc2
[23:05:37] <robin_sz> wow ...
[23:05:42] <robin_sz> sign me up
[23:05:58] <alex_joni> Uncle Sam just signed you up
[23:06:13] <Jymmmm> robin_sz and they are about 40 minutes from me
[23:06:27] <K4ts> night
[23:07:30] <robin_sz> handy device by the look of it
[23:07:39] <alex_joni> robin_sz: emc2 has a full m5i20 driver, along with vhdl files for the FPGA code
[23:07:49] <robin_sz> wow
[23:07:55] <robin_sz> you have been busy
[23:08:26] <robin_sz> need a special programmer for the JTAG/ or load over PCI?
[23:08:41] <alex_joni> PCI load on driver load (if you select that mode)
[23:08:49] <robin_sz> nice
[23:09:10] <robin_sz> want to marry you and have your babies
[23:09:10] <alex_joni> if it's already loaded, you can skip that
[23:09:15] <alex_joni> not me..
[23:09:25] <robin_sz> phew ;)
[23:09:26] <alex_joni> * alex_joni isn't responsible for that
[23:09:33] <robin_sz> cradek?
[23:09:40] <alex_joni> PeteG
[23:09:48] <robin_sz> never heard of him
[23:09:58] <alex_joni> Peter G. vavaroutsos
[23:10:20] <robin_sz> vavavooom!
[23:10:42] <alex_joni> and Peter C. Wallace (from Mesa)
[23:10:51] <robin_sz> well, that helps :)
[23:10:56] <robin_sz> so its stable right?
[23:10:57] <alex_joni> for the VHDL & docs
[23:11:05] <alex_joni> heard no complaints :)
[23:11:23] <robin_sz> I have 2 big AC servos and some screws
[23:11:29] <robin_sz> like 3kw servos
[23:11:34] <alex_joni> screw the AC servos
[23:11:37] <robin_sz> and 3m ballscrews
[23:11:38] <alex_joni> lol
[23:11:44] <alex_joni> ballscrew them
[23:12:04] <robin_sz> good basis for a CNC tube cutter
[23:13:08] <jepler> screen -d -r
[23:13:10] <jepler> oops
[23:16:36] <alex_joni> jepler: just did the same ..
[23:17:17] <alex_joni> darn cable ... went dead
[23:18:14] <alex_joni> robin_sz: how many axes on the tube cutter?
[23:28:58] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/ (4 files): fixed some right margin problems
[23:31:10] <jmkasunich> robin: you _have_ been out of touch...
[23:31:26] <jmkasunich> the m5i20 driver has been around at least 6 months I think
[23:32:45] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:32:49] <robin_sz> very much so
[23:33:01] <robin_sz> alex_joni, probably just 2 axes
[23:33:10] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/docs/Hal_Introduction.pdf: latest (and hopefully final) pdf copied to branch
[23:33:15] <robin_sz> 1 axis will have two slaved motors though
[23:33:34] <robin_sz> alex_joni, its for round tube, so 2 axes is enough
[23:33:56] <alex_joni> I would go for 3
[23:34:12] <robin_sz> rotate ... X and?
[23:34:14] <alex_joni> sideways 1, tilting the cutting head 2, turning 3
[23:34:19] <robin_sz> nah
[23:34:21] <robin_sz> plasma
[23:34:25] <alex_joni> that way you can cut grooves
[23:34:30] <robin_sz> you do NOT want to tilt it
[23:34:30] <alex_joni> yeah, and?
[23:34:45] <alex_joni> why not? I cut V bevels all the time
[23:34:56] <robin_sz> its not stable in my experience
[23:35:04] <alex_joni> it's very stable
[23:35:07] <robin_sz> go in 90, come out 90
[23:35:19] <alex_joni> I've cut 3m long at 45 degrees in one cut
[23:35:21] <robin_sz> go in 95 ... come out .. .??? anywyahere
[23:35:31] <robin_sz> really?
[23:35:33] <robin_sz> coo
[23:36:02] <robin_sz> I just want to be able to cut 45 dgree bevels on 100mm tube
[23:36:13] <robin_sz> way to big for the cold saws I have
[23:36:19] <alex_joni> right, that's why I said tilt it
[23:36:27] <robin_sz> ?
[23:36:36] <robin_sz> but 90 cut is better for welding
[23:36:58] <robin_sz> leaves it very 'open'
[23:40:40] <alex_joni> depends on the type of weld
[23:40:50] <robin_sz> oops
[23:40:50] <robin_sz> got disconnected
[23:40:57] <robin_sz> im wondering about the rotational axis
[23:41:03] <robin_sz> power the tailstock ...
[23:41:15] <robin_sz> or .. power the tailstock and the support ring
[23:41:30] <robin_sz> or just use rollers in the support ring?
[23:45:01] <robin_sz> right .. bedtime
[23:45:05] <robin_sz> later gurls
[23:46:03] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[23:46:23] <alex_joni> g'night
[23:56:04] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/VERSION: 2.0.0 release
[23:56:05] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/debian/ (changelog emc2.files): 2.0.0 release
[23:56:11] <alex_joni> yay