#emc | Logs for 2006-04-08

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[00:00:07] <jmkasunich> 3) surface finish
[00:00:13] <jmkasunich> balls need smooth tracks to roll on
[00:00:17] <terr> I don't know much about this area so I'm going to come up with krasy ideas for a while
[00:00:35] <jmkasunich> nothing wrong with krazy ideas
[00:00:36] <terr> if you have a nice sharp bit don't you get smooth cutting?
[00:00:50] <jmkasunich> not the kind of smooth you need for a screw
[00:01:12] <jmkasunich> I'm not sure I'm visualizing how you would cut the screw
[00:01:33] <jmkasunich> threading it on a lathe I understand, but you're talking about milling?
[00:01:58] <terr> I would take a cutting tool ot the proper diameter and place it tangetial to the rod
[00:02:03] <terr> then turn the rod
[00:02:10] <jmkasunich> proper dia = ball dia?
[00:02:12] <terr> s/ot/of/
[00:02:28] <terr> yes dia = ball diameter
[00:02:49] <jmkasunich> so you are talking a tool diameter of maybe 0.090 for a 10 TPI screw
[00:03:08] <jmkasunich> and if the screw diameter is 0.5", the tool has to stick out 1/4" minimum
[00:03:16] <terr> whatever the ball diameter is for the nut I'd have to buy
[00:03:35] <jmkasunich> that tool will deflect a couple thou, and that alone will totally kill your tolerances
[00:03:49] <terr> I can compensate for that...
[00:04:09] <jmkasunich> how much machining (manual) have you done?
[00:04:21] <terr> I'd zero in with several cuts and then mill out the last couple tho in one pass
[00:04:29] <terr> took 1 course
[00:04:35] <terr> over 10 years ago
[00:04:46] <jmkasunich> done much since then?
[00:04:58] <terr> I could cut to about 1/1000 usually on a shopsmith
[00:05:05] <terr> none. I need a mill and lathe
[00:05:41] <jmkasunich> you need a mill to make the screw that you need to build a mill ;-)
[00:05:51] <terr> Oh - I did mill out a router table asmbly.
[00:05:56] <terr> I forgot about that.
[00:06:03] <terr> I used a drill press lol
[00:06:08] <jmkasunich> what kind of tolerances did you ned to hold for that?
[00:06:17] <jmkasunich> 0.010" is easy
[00:06:24] <terr> I'm within the tolerances I need... about the thickness of a sheet of paper
[00:06:38] <jmkasunich> thats about 0.005, still pretty easy
[00:06:49] <terr> on a drill press? 8" drill press souped up to a 17" throat.
[00:07:00] <jmkasunich> not on a drill press ;-)
[00:07:04] <terr> That was fun.
[00:07:16] <jmkasunich> my point is that ballscrews want 0.0001
[00:07:17] <terr> chuck kept falling out.
[00:07:24] <jmkasunich> thats a completely different class of machining
[00:07:25] <terr> oh - 1/1000th
[00:07:32] <terr> that is very hard.
[00:07:45] <terr> how is this done commercially?
[00:08:02] <jmkasunich> lower cost ballscrews are rolled, expensive ones are ground
[00:08:16] <jmkasunich> you can get rolled ballscrews for less than $200
[00:08:23] <terr> how long?
[00:08:37] <terr> I was quoted about $200 bux for a 6 foot rolled
[00:10:33] <jmkasunich> I was checking mcmaster carr, they don't seem to have as many as they used to
[00:10:43] <jmkasunich> they're not the best source, but they're online and convenient to check
[00:10:45] <terr> jmkasunich: I didn't know they carried any.
[00:10:56] <terr> I've dealt with them before.
[00:11:03] <terr> what sorts of prices?
[00:11:10] <Jymmm> http://www.lowcostcncretrofits.com/Ballscrews%20and%20transmision.html
[00:11:38] <terr> damn java script.
[00:12:28] <jmkasunich> $1.20/inch = $86something for 6 ft
[00:12:36] <jmkasunich> and $25 for a nut
[00:12:52] <Jymmm> pay the $50 for the preloaded nut
[00:13:01] <terr> that is not so bad!
[00:13:08] <terr> what diameter?
[00:13:39] <jmkasunich> 5/8 x 0.2 pitch
[00:13:44] <jmkasunich> (on that page you just posted)
[00:14:31] <terr> HOLLY POOP - $219 for a 1300 in-oz motor! that is cheap!
[00:14:39] <Jymmm> jmkasunich I posted the link =)
[00:14:55] <jmkasunich> oops
[00:15:03] <terr> I wasn't smart enough to scroll down
[00:15:26] <jmkasunich> didn't notice the name, thought terr and I were the only ones in the conversation
[00:15:28] <jmkasunich> sorry
[00:16:04] <Jymmm> jmkasunich Tis ok, I just have this shit bookmarked.
[00:16:33] <terr> jymm I am totally impressed by how knowledgable people are in here.
[00:16:55] <Jymmm> terr: I did a *****LOT***** of homework
[00:17:09] <terr> Can I grind a rolled screw?
[00:17:18] <terr> Jymmm: it shows
[00:17:32] <jmkasunich> terr: no
[00:17:35] <jmkasunich> (short answer)
[00:17:50] <jmkasunich> long answer - if you had the machinery and know how to do it, you wouldn't be asking us
[00:17:58] <terr> jmkasunich: I presume they will wear in and get smoother
[00:18:02] <jmkasunich> need a cylindrical grinter to start with
[00:18:13] <terr> like my dremil? lol
[00:18:25] <Jymmm> terr like a $40,000 grinder
[00:18:29] <jmkasunich> yeah
[00:18:58] <terr> All the high spots should wear off first.
[00:19:10] <jmkasunich> actually, you might be able to improve smoothness (but not accuracy) by lapping
[00:19:14] <jmkasunich> still a major project tho
[00:19:23] <jmkasunich> take a length of screw stock
[00:19:24] <terr> I do have some lapping coumpound here.
[00:19:29] <jmkasunich> mill flutes in it
[00:19:45] <jmkasunich> use it to tap a hole in a block of brass
[00:20:04] <terr> milling the fluets wouldn't be too difficult - getting accuracy will be impossible I think
[00:20:34] <jmkasunich> put fine lapping compound in the hole and run your new abrasive brass nut up and down the main piece of the screw a few hundred times
[00:20:37] <terr> I was thinking _maybe_ 0.002
[00:20:56] <terr> hmm - could put that on a stepper and go to bed
[00:21:01] <jmkasunich> might want to slit the nut/lap so you can tighten it
[00:21:10] <terr> ya - good idea.
[00:21:18] <jmkasunich> then clean the screw
[00:21:21] <jmkasunich> and clean it again
[00:21:23] <jmkasunich> and again
[00:21:25] <jmkasunich> and again
[00:21:30] <terr> could make a 2" long nut too - that would work like a plane
[00:21:31] <jmkasunich> and finally reassemble the ballnut to it
[00:21:59] <jmkasunich> hardest part would be tapping the nut/lap
[00:22:11] <terr> IF I could tell my trusty robot to do it then it wouldn't matter. Something like the bi-centenial man
[00:22:36] <Jymmm> * Jymmm kicks the perverbial dog!
[00:22:47] <jmkasunich> poor dog
[00:22:59] <terr> I was thinking the same - go find a cat ok?
[00:23:04] <jmkasunich> Jymm's dog bites his ankle
[00:23:28] <Jymmm> dremel tooling is too damn small... need something just clightly bigger
[00:23:32] <Jymmm> slightly
[00:23:36] <jmkasunich> for what?
[00:23:48] <jmkasunich> grinding ballscrews?
[00:23:51] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[00:24:18] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Eh, I'm trying to sand the ends of some 3/8" acrylic square stock...
[00:24:18] <terr> Jymmm: what do you have now?
[00:24:34] <terr> Jymmm: what is so hard about that?
[00:24:51] <Jymmm> jmkasunich but the sanding discs are too damn small and get maintain 90 degrees
[00:24:57] <Jymmm> s/get/cant/
[00:25:14] <jmkasunich> do you have a belt sander?
[00:25:20] <Jymmm> nope
[00:25:27] <jmkasunich> orbital wood sander?
[00:25:31] <terr> do you ahve a grinder?
[00:25:33] <Jymmm> palm sander
[00:25:38] <terr> drill?
[00:25:41] <terr> motor?
[00:25:52] <jmkasunich> how many pieces of acrylic?
[00:26:07] <Jymmm> jmkasunich right now 8, later on 80
[00:26:18] <jmkasunich> can you bundle them into a 4" square bundle and sand the whole pile with the palm sander?
[00:26:37] <jmkasunich> btw, why sanding vs milling or something?
[00:27:08] <terr> use a fly cutter
[00:27:11] <jmkasunich> are you aiming for precisely flat, or very smooth (clear) or both?
[00:27:12] <Jymmm> jmkasunich 200, then 400, then 800 grit
[00:27:43] <Jymmm> jmkasunich optically clear
[00:27:46] <jmkasunich> how long are the pieces?
[00:27:49] <terr> are you making light pipes?
[00:27:54] <Jymmm> 6"
[00:28:05] <Jymmm> terr yes
[00:28:15] <Jymmm> and 12"
[00:28:42] <jmkasunich> could you make a block with a 3/8 slot in it to hold the piece square, then lay sandpaper flat on glass or something else flat and smooth, slide the block around?
[00:29:00] <jmkasunich> granted, thats manual, would get old fast
[00:29:06] <terr> take some stock and bore a proper size hole it and mount the sander ina jig
[00:29:31] <terr> jmkasunich: good point - the sandpaper has to be on a hard surface
[00:29:33] <jmkasunich> if your're going for optical clear, you'll need to sand wet
[00:29:37] <terr> sander won't work well
[00:30:01] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I'll flame polish it when I get to a certain point.
[00:30:38] <terr> build a cylinder jig so you can spin it over the paper and drop new rod in from a pipe as the old ones are done and fall into a box.
[00:30:49] <terr> You can probably make a robot to do the whole job.
[00:31:14] <jmkasunich> terr, 8 or even 80 pieces doesn't warrent that complexity
[00:31:34] <terr> jmkasunich: hey - I was the guy who was going to make his own ball screws
[00:32:00] <Jymmm> the vertical sanding is an idea though... let the weight of the piece to it...
[00:32:11] <terr> $699 for a 10 Amp uni=polar controller. I wonder how good it is?
[00:32:21] <terr> that is cheaper than gecko
[00:32:29] <jmkasunich> probably need some additional weight, acylic isn't heavy
[00:32:35] <jmkasunich> huh?
[00:32:46] <jmkasunich> geckos are less than $150
[00:32:48] <terr> Jymmm: you can bore the holes in a tree stump.
[00:32:53] <fenn> waterjet
[00:32:59] <terr> per axis - this is 4 axis with a P/S incl
[00:33:21] <jmkasunich> unipolar tho... gecko is a whole nother class
[00:33:27] <Jymmm> jmkasunich Well, finger touch thing... keep the heat and clogging to a minimum.
[00:33:28] <terr> in a box with an on-off switch
[00:33:33] <Jymmm> fenn SHUT DA HELL UP!
[00:33:59] <Jymmm> fenn you and your damn waterjet! Go find a skijet and get lost =)
[00:34:12] <jmkasunich> jymm: if the sandpaper is laying flat, wet sanding is trivial, I'd do it just to avoid clogging the paper
[00:34:15] <terr> Jymmm: a dry chunk of hardwood will probably work for your jig...
[00:34:55] <terr> jmkasunich: he can make a plate from metal or glass to hold the sandpaper
[00:34:59] <terr> jsut glue it on
[00:35:04] <jmkasunich> yeah
[00:35:18] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I have a 3" makita panel saw. Thinking of turning it into a multi tool
[00:35:23] <terr> I have some nice spray on adhesive that will work too.
[00:35:39] <jmkasunich> I've lapped steel parts using find sandpaper (SiC, 600 grit) stuck to the table saw table with a spritz of wd-40 (just surface tension)
[00:35:39] <terr> 3" panel saw?
[00:35:42] <terr> huh?
[00:36:13] <terr> 3" what? arbour? blade diameter?
[00:36:14] <jmkasunich> yeah Jymmm, huh?
[00:36:20] <jmkasunich> blade probably
[00:36:37] <terr> can the panel saw cut a 4x8 foot peice?
[00:36:38] <jmkasunich> made for cutting max 3/4 thick stuff
[00:36:47] <jmkasunich> think baby skilsaw
[00:36:56] <terr> tiny tiny
[00:37:02] <jmkasunich> (I think, is that right Jymmm?
[00:37:12] <Jymmm> yeah, just a sec...
[00:37:19] <terr> How large a panel will it cut?
[00:37:29] <jmkasunich> its a handheld saw
[00:37:33] <jmkasunich> how big you got?
[00:37:39] <jmkasunich> and how long is the cord?
[00:38:33] <terr> Ohhhhh... its just a small skillsaw then.
[00:38:33] <Jymmm> http://www.mytoolstore.com/makita/mak1b-10.html
[00:38:45] <jmkasunich> duh, thats what I said
[00:38:48] <Jymmm> echo echo
[00:39:08] <Jymmm> paneling, like 1/8" thick
[00:39:14] <terr> I was thinking of a "real" panel saw - they are in a frame and will cut 4x8 panels
[00:39:16] <Jymmm> or tile, whatever
[00:39:36] <jmkasunich> terr: I know what you are talking about, but he said makita
[00:39:46] <jmkasunich> so it had to be a blue plastic handheld thing
[00:39:47] <terr> gue your sandpaper to teh side of the balde and build a jig for your rods
[00:40:04] <jmkasunich> that could work
[00:40:11] <Jymmm> they make 3" sanding discs
[00:40:13] <jmkasunich> does yours have the water bottle?
[00:40:33] <Jymmm> jmkasunich no, but I have the tile blade =)
[00:40:34] <jmkasunich> that thing probably spins too fast for dry sanding you'd melt the acrylic
[00:40:43] <jmkasunich> wet it might work
[00:41:01] <jmkasunich> I'd aim for a few hundred sfm and wet for best results
[00:41:07] <Jymmm> jmkasunich it's 9.6VDC, But I made a speacial adapter so I can run it off my variable PS
[00:41:12] <jmkasunich> bet that things a few thousand
[00:41:22] <terr> http://www.mytoolstore.com/milwauke/6480.html <--- real panel saw
[00:41:36] <jmkasunich> terr: I know
[00:41:54] <terr> Jymmm: do you ahve a stepper motor?
[00:42:07] <Jymmm> yep
[00:42:14] <terr> arbour?
[00:42:23] <Jymmm> maybe
[00:42:54] <Jymmm> terr: I'm not sadistic enough to make a DEDICATED sanding device =)
[00:43:24] <terr> I'd put a pully on the stepper perhaps and use it to run the arbour and put a saw blade or something and glue the sandpaper on then run a stream of water over the sandpaper
[00:44:02] <terr> be a nice conversation peice and you can probably sell it on ebay when you are done.
[00:44:38] <jmkasunich> terr = strange fellow
[00:45:04] <jmkasunich> Jymmm, is it 8 then 80 then production? or 8 then 80 then done?
[00:45:21] <Jymmm> jmkasunich goal is production
[00:46:28] <terr> jmkasunich: thankyou!
[00:46:36] <Jymmm> jmkasunich I need to make a end drilling jig too, so I might combine them.
[00:48:30] <terr> I'm planning on plastic moulding... hense unless I want to spend a zillion bux I need a mill so I can make my own molds.
[00:49:04] <terr> jmkasunich: if you have a lathe and a boring tool and a tree stump it will be easy
[00:49:41] <terr> what diameter are teh rods and how accurate?
[00:49:58] <jmkasunich> 3/8 square IIRC
[00:50:09] <terr> SQUARE?
[00:50:13] <terr> oh!
[00:50:32] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich: Eh, I'm trying to sand the ends of some 3/8" acrylic square stock...
[00:50:54] <terr> well - that is still pretty easy.
[00:50:57] <jmkasunich> jymmm: go to mcmaster carr, look at page 2589
[00:51:06] <terr> 2 sheets of plywood and a chisel.
[00:51:17] <jmkasunich> their site isn't URL friendly
[00:51:32] <terr> put a 2x2 between the plywood
[00:51:33] <jmkasunich> 3/8 router bit or endmill beats a chisel
[00:51:42] <terr> jmkasunich: you got that right.
[00:51:50] <terr> if you have one.
[00:51:55] <terr> I have a chisel.
[00:51:59] <jmkasunich> jymmm: bottom of the page, belts
[00:52:23] <terr> hmm - yes - you can make a couple of rollers and make your own sander!
[00:52:36] <terr> that would be a fun project.
[00:52:56] <terr> cost less than $250 bux too.
[00:53:05] <terr> a belt sander is in that range.
[00:53:08] <jmkasunich> they also have belts that slip over wheel, see page 2579
[00:53:23] <jmkasunich> the wheel can replace a grinder wheel
[00:53:32] <jmkasunich> but that's probably too fast and dry
[00:53:44] <terr> I think he'll need to wet sand it.
[00:53:48] <jmkasunich> yeah
[00:54:14] <jmkasunich> I was thinking low speed homemade belt sander, with the upper wheel driven and the lower one dipping into water
[00:55:11] <terr> me too - make yer own. He can do this with 4 bearing @ 1.00 each and two shafts - possibly even a broom stick and a couple rollers made from a tree stump.
[00:55:24] <jmkasunich> whats with you and tree stumps?
[00:55:37] <terr> jmkasunich: I like wood actually. lol
[00:55:49] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: what tools do you have? lathe, mill, drillpress?
[00:56:00] <jmkasunich> treestumps and dull chisels?
[00:56:24] <terr> lol
[00:56:52] <jmkasunich> could probably rig up a sanding disk or drum for a drillpress, make a jig to hold the rod
[00:56:56] <Jymmm> jmkasunich explosives, angle grinder, sulfuric acid
[00:57:00] <jmkasunich> disk makes it easier to get flat
[00:57:09] <terr> jmkasunich: be funny to walk over to the nearest park and find a branch from a tree and make a sander from it that starts a million dollar company.
[00:57:29] <terr> what concentration H2SO4?
[00:57:30] <Jymmm> jmkasunich drill press
[00:57:52] <Jymmm> jmkasunich and the gantry router of course
[00:57:58] <terr> Jymmm: what kind of explosives?
[00:58:11] <Jymmm> terr I'll never tell
[00:58:12] <terr> WOW - I am planning on building a gantry router.
[00:58:16] <jmkasunich> what is the router motor? a regular wood router?
[00:58:17] <terr> anflo?
[00:58:42] <jmkasunich> how about a small diameter sanding drum, run the router as slow as it will go
[00:58:43] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Bosch 8K-25K 2.25 HP
[00:58:50] <terr> stepper will drive a shopbuilt belt sander at any speed you choose...
[00:58:56] <jmkasunich> and traverse it across the end of the part
[00:59:18] <terr> sanding drum is not flat. he needs flat - and I think he needs wet too like you said.
[00:59:23] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: think surface grinder laying on its side
[00:59:36] <jmkasunich> terr - a surface grinder makes flat parts with a round wheel
[00:59:53] <jmkasunich> lay part(s) on the table (spaced up 1/8")
[00:59:58] <terr> I have a delta table top belt sander - cost me $30 bux new because the store lost some peices.
[01:00:06] <jmkasunich> line up ends, run router back and forth
[01:00:20] <terr> I think he should try a fly cutter in his mill or lathe
[01:00:25] <jmkasunich> fast back and forth, very slow infeed (like a surface grinder)
[01:00:29] <Jymmm> jmkasunich you know the table saws that have a fanbelt? I was thinking of making something like that, but with sanding, cutting, drilling features.
[01:00:36] <Jymmm> jmkasunich but in miniture
[01:00:47] <Jymmm> 3" instead of 10"
[01:00:53] <terr> get a tile cutter...
[01:01:03] <jmkasunich> if making something, make it so it can go slow and work wet
[01:01:18] <jmkasunich> mcmaster has some nice AC gearmotors, anywhere from 3 to 200 RPM
[01:01:30] <terr> princess auto?
[01:01:33] <jmkasunich> they want $45, but that seems like the kind of thing you might be able to scrounge
[01:01:36] <Jymmm> jmkasunich Yeah, that why I wanted the belt, so I can keep the spidnle wet as much as a I want and away from the electrical
[01:01:40] <terr> they have gear motors for 10 bux
[01:01:42] <terr> ebay?
[01:02:13] <jmkasunich> belt sander isn't that hard to make - two drums, two shafts, four bearings
[01:02:23] <terr> Jymmm: what RPM do you envision it running at?
[01:02:32] <jmkasunich> lower drum dips into a cakepan of water which also catches drips
[01:02:42] <terr> You can make sleeve bearings too.
[01:02:45] <jmkasunich> one shaft is long enough to keep the motor clear
[01:02:59] <terr> easy to make out of wood!!!
[01:03:16] <Jymmm> jmkasunich I just need to find some thin v belts and pulleys
[01:03:17] <jmkasunich> 3" drum at 100 RPM is about 90 SFPM
[01:03:29] <terr> yup
[01:03:44] <jmkasunich> why v-belts?
[01:03:50] <terr> Jymmm: what RPM - I think you can do it simpler...
[01:04:10] <jmkasunich> shaft drive from a gearmotor is probably easier
[01:04:23] <Jymmm> jmkasunich to fit the pulleys? (or am I thinking of somethign else)
[01:04:25] <terr> He can use a broomstick.
[01:04:34] <jmkasunich> motor drives one drum thru shaft
[01:04:44] <jmkasunich> sanding belt goes between both drums
[01:04:48] <Jymmm> jmkasunich oh you mean instead of direct drive?
[01:05:03] <jmkasunich> no, I mean use direct drive
[01:05:13] <terr> jmkasunich: he can drive this from a wimpy rubber hose if he supports it over to the motor... and all he needs is the arbour to hold the sanding plate.
[01:05:30] <Jymmm> jmkasunich I want to keep the motor away from the cutting area by at least 10"
[01:05:43] <jmkasunich> terr: are you talking about a flat plate sander (disk) or a belt sander with two drums?
[01:05:59] <terr> Jymmm: that is easy to do - you can use a rubber hose a few feet long in fact...
[01:06:10] <jmkasunich> piece of drill rod
[01:06:16] <terr> jmkasunich: either - he has practually no force on the belt.
[01:06:31] <jmkasunich> could use short rubber hose for flex coupling
[01:06:34] <terr> I'd go with something flexible. then you don't need to align it.
[01:06:41] <jmkasunich> but can't do a 2 foot run with hose
[01:06:51] <terr> actually he can.
[01:06:56] <fenn> i'd just stick one of the drums on the motor shaft..
[01:06:59] <jmkasunich> whatever you say
[01:07:11] <jmkasunich> fenn: electric motor, wet sander, dripping
[01:07:20] <fenn> meh
[01:07:21] <terr> He can make a bearing out of wood too - just soak the wood in wax. Its surpizingly good.
[01:07:43] <fenn> jmkasunich: use kerosene instead :P
[01:07:57] <fenn> make sure to use a brushed dc motor in that case
[01:08:23] <terr> all he needs to do is put the rubber hose - say 3/4" inside a 1" pipe. pour in some oil or grease and it'll drive anything he wants!
[01:08:34] <jmkasunich> whatever you say
[01:08:56] <terr> kerosene doesn't like to catch easily. Naptha is better.
[01:08:58] <Jymmm> terr you really should share.
[01:09:07] <terr> ??
[01:09:21] <Jymmm> terr whatever you've been drinking/smoking/snorting
[01:09:38] <fenn> i would probably use boe-lube on the sanding belt instead of water
[01:09:53] <fenn> dunno how that works on acrylic though
[01:10:01] <terr> what about KY
[01:10:03] <Jymmm> fenn wth is boe lube?
[01:10:08] <fenn> its made from boeings
[01:10:26] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: mcmaster carr #4650A15, 3" dia x 1" wide rubber sanding drum with 1/2" thru hole
[01:10:29] <jmkasunich> $15
[01:10:32] <Jymmm> * Jymmm sighs * I'm surrounded! CALGON TAKE ME AWAY
[01:10:44] <jmkasunich> use 3' of 1/2" drill rod and a couple pillow blocks
[01:10:59] <jmkasunich> mount to bench so you can slip a cake pan of water underneath the drum
[01:11:06] <jmkasunich> couple motor to far end of shaft
[01:11:18] <jmkasunich> upper drum can be nearly anything
[01:11:26] <terr> jymm the thing about a shaft drive is the alignmnet is difficult - you eliminate that issue if you run a rubber hose through a pipe - and you will be surprised how much force a washing machine hose for instance will transmit... You can probably stall a 1/2 HP motor
[01:12:02] <jmkasunich> terr: a short length of hose forcefit over the end of a shaft solves the alignment problem without having a hose whipping around
[01:12:18] <terr> You can simply push a 1/2" bolt into the hose at both ends to couple to the sander/ motor
[01:12:39] <fenn> * fenn uses hoseclamps
[01:12:41] <terr> jmkasunich: ya - same Idea - good idea.
[01:13:08] <jmkasunich> fenn: for this application hoseclamps would be a safety hazard, catch on clothes pull you in
[01:13:19] <jmkasunich> and he shouldn't need that much torque
[01:13:30] <terr> jmkasunich: and a couple scraps of wood will support a shaft too - real cheap and simple and will not wear out any time soon
[01:13:32] <jmkasunich> smooth shaft, smooth hose for coupling, much safer
[01:13:37] <jmkasunich> guarded is better
[01:13:57] <terr> don't need hose clamps....
[01:14:12] <jmkasunich> terr: true, the bare minimum here is a couple 2x2s with 1/2" holes and wax
[01:14:17] <terr> just push the hose over the shaft to about 2"
[01:14:29] <jmkasunich> but you need to make sure the shafts are damn parallel, or make the upper one adjustable
[01:14:31] <jmkasunich> for tracking
[01:14:41] <terr> jmkasunich: ya - actually it will work surpisingly well!!!
[01:14:54] <terr> yup - couple set screws.
[01:15:31] <terr> he can do this with a pair of 6" spikes and a few chucks of wood and a brass plate for the belt to run on.
[01:16:01] <jmkasunich> http://www.cyberrockhound.com/wet.htm
[01:16:27] <terr> then a 2" shaft and some hose which can be vinyl tubing for all the force it needs to take. But a washing machine hose is probably better - or a chuck of garden hose.
[01:16:54] <terr> 2 foot shaft
[01:17:06] <fenn> that looks like a much better design than what we're talking about
[01:17:35] <jmkasunich> it all comes down to $
[01:17:54] <fenn> yeah but jymmm could make something like that out of scrap
[01:18:02] <jmkasunich> you can use tree stumps and chisels, or drill rod and drums from mcmaster, or buy a nice one
[01:18:06] <jmkasunich> cash vs labor
[01:18:43] <fenn> heh cnc milled tree stumps sell for a good bit of money
[01:18:43] <jmkasunich> might consider ebay for something like those
[01:19:06] <fenn> dont wanna use up all your raw materials on workshop equipment
[01:19:24] <jmkasunich> http://www.dadsrockshop.com/cabbing.html
[01:19:28] <jmkasunich> heres another approach
[01:19:32] <jmkasunich> disk instead of drum
[01:21:48] <Jymmm> corded drill on a vise, disc sander in an arbor, and a ledge.
[01:22:01] <Jymmm> s/on/in/
[01:22:23] <jmkasunich> figure out how to run it slow, or wet, or make very light cuts
[01:22:28] <jmkasunich> or it will melt
[01:22:35] <jmkasunich> wet is the way to go IMHO
[01:22:59] <jmkasunich> if you do try, to a drum in the router, the CNC has enough patience to take very light passes so it will stay cool
[01:23:04] <jmkasunich> s/try/dry
[01:23:19] <jmkasunich> s/try, to/dry, do
[01:23:26] <jmkasunich> damn I can't spell
[01:23:32] <Jymmm> http://iafrica.com/diy/how/powertools/437121.htm
[01:24:29] <jmkasunich> yep
[01:24:43] <jmkasunich> make the disk aluminum, and give it a long shaft
[01:25:02] <Jymmm> drill bit extender
[01:25:17] <jmkasunich> then you can chuck the drill on the far end, let the bottom of the wheel dip into water, and wet sand without getting the drill wet
[01:25:37] <Jymmm> or plastic shield
[01:25:51] <Jymmm> but I like the extended shaft much better
[01:26:20] <jmkasunich> something like a windshield washer motor would be a nice speed...
[01:27:20] <jmkasunich> cut the bottom off a bleach bottle or something like that, put a shaft hole in the center, and use it as a spray shield
[01:27:27] <jmkasunich> (stationary, shaft thru a clearance hole)
[01:27:39] <jmkasunich> screw/staple to the wood frame
[01:28:39] <jmkasunich> if the bottle bottom is 2" deep and the disk is 1" it will trap most spray (at low speed spray won;t be bad - don't try it at 2000 RPM)
[01:32:41] <Jymmm> 2liter bottle of soda... cheap and durable
[01:32:54] <Jymmm> PET can withstand 120 PSI
[01:33:27] <jmkasunich> depends on the disk diameter
[01:33:39] <jmkasunich> I was thinking bigger, but if you have a small disk that would work
[01:33:48] <Jymmm> 12" x 12" shield
[01:34:15] <jmkasunich> huh?
[01:34:24] <jmkasunich> a sodabottle is only about 4" dia
[01:34:32] <Jymmm> 1 lite bottle
[01:34:34] <Jymmm> 2 liter
[01:34:41] <Jymmm> or even 3 liter
[01:34:47] <jmkasunich> 5" maybe?
[01:35:01] <Jymmm> about 6"
[01:35:10] <jmkasunich> still not 12x12
[01:35:19] <giacus> hahaha
[01:35:29] <jmkasunich> or are you talking about cutting the sides off, slit and unwrap to make a sheet?
[01:35:50] <giacus> http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=fallimento&btnG=Cerca+con+Google&meta=
[01:35:59] <giacus> note the first link :D
[01:36:01] <giacus> lol
[01:36:10] <Jymmm> 3.14*6
[01:36:14] <Jymmm> 18"
[01:36:38] <jmkasunich> I was talking about using the bottom and part if the sides, intact, so you wind up with a "cup", about 6" dia x 2 or 3" high
[01:36:57] <Jymmm> OH, heh I was taking cutting the sides out
[01:37:00] <jmkasunich> turn the cup on its side, poke the shaft thru the bottom, the wheel faces the top
[01:37:02] <Jymmm> talking
[01:37:09] <jmkasunich> no seams or anything that way
[01:38:13] <Jymmm> HF sells a 3/8" keyless jacobs (brand) chuck for $5, ist uses a 3/8" thread. Was thinking just getting a REALLY long bolt (12"+)
[01:39:00] <jmkasunich> drill rod
[01:39:07] <Jymmm> rusts
[01:39:22] <jmkasunich> bolts rust
[01:39:37] <Jymmm> pot metal bolts
[01:39:45] <jmkasunich> brass rod ;-)
[01:39:52] <jmkasunich> using bolts for rods is just wrong
[01:39:53] <Jymmm> no lathe
[01:40:21] <Jymmm> this aint rocket science you know
[01:41:05] <Jymmm> I have some 1/4" SS rods, but that's about it. (well and 12ft of acme)
[01:41:36] <jmkasunich> the chuck thread is pribably 3/8-24, right?
[01:41:45] <Jymmm> yeah
[01:43:03] <jmkasunich> 18-8 stainless steel 3/8-24 threaded rod 24" long, $5.30 from mcmaster
[01:43:25] <Jymmm> full thread?
[01:43:30] <jmkasunich> yes
[01:43:32] <Jymmm> or PN
[01:43:36] <jmkasunich> thats the definition of threaded rod
[01:43:48] <jmkasunich> 98805A031
[01:43:53] <jmkasunich> the problem is...
[01:43:58] <Jymmm> I'm talking only the end being threaded by about 1.5"
[01:44:06] <jmkasunich> if you use a long shaft you need some support right behind the wheel
[01:44:15] <jmkasunich> hard to put a bearing there if its threaded
[01:44:35] <jmkasunich> do you already have the sanding disk?
[01:44:49] <Jymmm> you think it's gonna bow at 3" in from the end?
[01:44:57] <Jymmm> no on the sanding disc
[01:45:03] <jmkasunich> hard to say
[01:45:11] <jmkasunich> bolts aren't even guaranteed to be straight
[01:45:23] <jmkasunich> the further the disk is from the bearing the wobblier it will be
[01:45:45] <jmkasunich> I'd do one bearing very close to the back of the disk, and the motor/drill at the other end
[01:45:52] <jmkasunich> (don't need or want two bearings)
[01:47:19] <Jymmm> jmkasunich and be able to lock it into position too
[03:03:00] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. If your channel was just attacked, please message me. Thanks.
[03:13:26] <Jymmm> jmkasunich that drill guide is $27 at sears. 0967173000
[03:26:06] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Red70sShow
[03:26:06] <Red70sShow> Red70sShow is now known as Jymmm
[03:26:59] <alpha1125> alpha1125 is now known as A-L-P-H-A
[05:45:42] <A-L-P-H-A> lalala
[09:34:13] <chinamill> * chinamill is away: _
[11:52:05] <Bo-Dick> is it true that the circuits L297 and L298 most likely can be found in old dot matrix printers?
[12:20:25] <chinamill> * chinamill is away: will try to have a look from time to time
[13:20:20] <Bo-Dick> is anyone at all in the channel?
[14:08:15] <|Magician|> I am having problems getting EMC2 installed on Ubuntu using instructions from Chris Radek's site
[14:09:34] <|Magician|> anyone here that could possibly help?
[14:10:50] <cradek> hi, what kind of problem?
[14:11:31] <|Magician|> I downloaded the install.ch
[14:11:34] <|Magician|> ran it
[14:11:48] <|Magician|> it downloaded the files....then closed itself out
[14:13:03] <|Magician|> but, everytime i reboot....and i run the install.ch...it downloads the universe package again
[14:13:39] <cradek> you need only run it once, you are probably done
[14:13:49] <cradek> have you tried running emc?
[14:13:58] <|Magician|> cant find it on here
[14:14:07] <|Magician|> synaptec does'nt show it
[14:14:22] <cradek> and it's not on the applications/misc menu?
[14:14:28] <|Magician|> no
[14:15:22] <cradek> ok there's probably an error message when you run install.sh
[14:15:36] <|Magician|> if i try to install it using synaptic it gives me an error saying emc2:
[14:15:37] <|Magician|> Depends: libglib1.2 (>=1.2.0) but it is not installable
[14:15:37] <|Magician|> Depends: libgtk1.2 (>=1.2.10-4) but it is not installable
[14:15:37] <|Magician|> Depends: libgtk1.2 but it is not installable
[14:16:05] <|Magician|> it closes before i can read if there is one
[14:16:20] <cradek> when you installed ubuntu, did you have a network connection (dhcp) during the install, or did you configure networking later?
[14:16:30] <|Magician|> dial up
[14:16:35] <cradek> ok
[14:16:41] <|Magician|> i had to configure it later
[14:16:52] <|Magician|> which was a chore in itself
[14:17:04] <cradek> probably you have some repositories disabled then, since ubuntu does not configure the apt repositories at install time if there is no network then
[14:18:02] <cradek> do you know how to enable them or should we walk through it together?
[14:18:28] <|Magician|> I could use some help
[14:18:31] <cradek> ok
[14:18:38] <cradek> open a Terminal
[14:18:50] <|Magician|> done
[14:18:51] <cradek> type this:
[14:18:59] <cradek> EDITOR=gedit sudoedit /etc/apt/sources.list
[14:20:26] <cradek> if it asks for your password, type it, and you will get an editor
[14:20:56] <|Magician|> done
[14:21:04] <cradek> ok this file is a list of apt repositories
[14:21:10] <cradek> there are lines starting with deb and deb-src
[14:21:21] <cradek> some have # in front of them, which disables them
[14:21:42] <cradek> you want to carefully remove the # from deb and deb-src lines
[14:21:59] <cradek> enable all of them but the ones ending in multiverse
[14:22:23] <cradek> you also do not need universe, which it sounds like you already enabled
[14:22:53] <|Magician|> actually...I am looking at a blank screen with a tab that says sources.XXykklfn.....
[14:23:00] <cradek> but there's no harm in leaving it enabled
[14:23:07] <cradek> hmmm
[14:23:27] <cradek> EDITOR=gedit sudoedit /etc/apt/sources.list
[14:23:37] <cradek> did you make a mistake typing this?
[14:23:51] <cradek> go ahead and close the editor window and try again
[14:23:57] <|Magician|> ok
[14:24:16] <cradek> in the Terminal you can use the up-arrow and then edit your mistake
[14:27:07] <cradek> are you stuck?
[14:27:37] <alex_joni> cradek: I'll take over
[14:28:18] <cradek> hi alex
[14:28:32] <alex_joni> hi chris
[14:28:34] <cradek> can you help |Magician| with his apt repositories?
[14:28:43] <alex_joni> I can try.. what seems to be missing?
[14:28:46] <cradek> maybe you know a better way to do this
[14:29:19] <cradek> I like to enable everything but universe and multiverse, so all ubuntu packages and updates are available
[14:29:38] <alex_joni> right, ok I can try to help him
[14:29:41] <alex_joni> Magician|: hello
[14:29:49] <Magician|> got disconnected
[14:29:51] <alex_joni> Magician|: connection died?
[14:29:57] <alex_joni> Magician|: ok, no problem ;)
[14:30:00] <Magician|> yes...my appologies
[14:30:04] <Magician|> EDITOR=gedit sudoedit /ect/apt/sources.list
[14:30:10] <Magician|> is what i typed
[14:30:11] <alex_joni> Magician|: I'll take over trying to help you
[14:30:16] <Magician|> I got the same thing
[14:30:21] <alex_joni> make sure that is /etc not /ect
[14:30:21] <Magician|> ok, thanks
[14:30:29] <cradek> thanks alex, I have to run for a while
[14:30:42] <Magician|> thanks cradek
[14:30:44] <alex_joni> EDITOR=gedit sudoedit /etc/apt/sources.list
[14:30:44] <cradek> bye Magician|
[14:30:47] <cradek> you're welcome
[14:30:49] <Magician|> bye
[14:31:40] <alex_joni> Magician|: can you look what the actual line you entered looks like?
[14:31:47] <alex_joni> did you type /etc or /ect ?
[14:31:47] <Magician|> Its always the simple things
[14:31:56] <Magician|> yes you were right
[14:32:04] <alex_joni> ok, try again with /etc
[14:32:05] <Magician|> I typed it wrong
[14:32:11] <Magician|> done
[14:32:32] <alex_joni> hint: /etc comes from etcetera (other stuff , usually configs)
[14:32:53] <alex_joni> Magician|: now a editor should pop up and you should be able to edit that file
[14:32:55] <Bo-Dick> does anyone know in what particular dot matrix printers the L297 and L298 parts could be found? i mean their brand names and so on
[14:33:47] <alex_joni> Magician|: still there?
[14:34:02] <Magician|> all of the files with deb and deb src?
[14:34:10] <alex_joni> almost all
[14:34:18] <alex_joni> except the ones called universe and multiverse
[14:34:27] <alex_joni> at the end of the line you'll see those names
[14:35:34] <Magician|> leave the universe files alon?
[14:35:38] <Magician|> alone?
[14:35:43] <alex_joni> yes for now
[14:35:47] <Magician|> done
[14:35:59] <alex_joni> ok, save and close the editor
[14:36:26] <Magician|> done
[14:36:29] <alex_joni> you still have the terminal:
[14:36:37] <alex_joni> type 'sudo apt-get update'
[14:36:39] <Magician|> yes
[14:37:21] <alex_joni> without the ''
[14:37:42] <Magician|> waiting for headers
[14:38:26] <alex_joni> ok, it will probably take a while to get the latest stuff from the net
[14:39:13] <alex_joni> but I'll be around all day, so there's time ;)
[14:39:54] <Magician|> especially with my lighting fast connection....you can't get much out here in the sticks
[14:41:07] <alex_joni> Magician|: where are you located?
[14:41:44] <Magician|> Tennessee U.S.
[14:42:55] <Magician|> I'm sure you see people from all over on here
[14:45:05] <Magician|> did you get the location?
[14:45:09] <alex_joni> Magician|: we get people from all over the world
[14:45:13] <alex_joni> yes, tennessee US
[14:45:23] <alex_joni> I'm in eastern europe, btw ;)
[14:45:46] <Magician|> I imagine.....the more I read about it, the more I see how wide spead it is
[14:45:49] <alex_joni> we've got some regular folks from Sweden, UK, germany..
[14:46:18] <alex_joni> there is a frappr map with some users: http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller/
[14:46:22] <alex_joni> err..
[14:46:37] <Magician|> ha ha...now it says I have 37 updates available
[14:46:41] <Magician|> thats a change
[14:46:46] <alex_joni> Magician|: you probably have ;)
[14:47:12] <skunkworks> magician: ever thought of direcway satellite internet?
[14:47:49] <skunkworks> alex_joni: is '|' STILL CALLED A "PIPE"
[14:48:09] <skunkworks> sorry didn't mean to shout
[14:48:11] <alex_joni> skunkworks: as far as I know, yes it's a pipe
[14:48:41] <Magician|> yeah, I actually knew someone that had it, but I havent been interested in the bill that they send with it
[14:49:07] <skunkworks> right - best would be wireless you could share with someone close.
[14:49:24] <Magician|> I ussually dl all of the larger files when i am at work with dsl
[14:49:48] <alex_joni> Magician|: installing emc2 will mean you'll have some larger files involved
[14:49:59] <alex_joni> mainly the RT patched kernel is about 30 MB
[14:50:17] <skunkworks> I direcway before dsl here near lacrosse, Wi. but dsl is much better.
[14:50:38] <skunkworks> but direcway got the job done over dialup.
[14:50:51] <Magician|> I cant even get a cell to pick up signal here......I have to drive down the road a ways until I get a signal
[14:51:01] <alex_joni> Magician|: ouch ;)
[14:51:04] <skunkworks> same here.
[14:51:19] <Magician|> yeah....I am not looking forward to the dl times
[14:51:35] <skunkworks> I live in a valley - which doesn't help either.
[14:52:28] <skunkworks> will ept-get pick up where it left off if there is a connection problem?
[14:53:03] <alex_joni> skunkworks: usually yes
[14:53:07] <skunkworks> cool
[14:53:09] <alex_joni> but it's apt-get
[14:53:31] <skunkworks> :) ept is a pregnancy test over here.
[14:57:40] <alex_joni> Magician|: if you need further assistance, let me know
[14:58:51] <alex_joni> skunkworks: wanna see some nice machines?
[14:59:39] <skunkworks> shure
[14:59:49] <skunkworks> sure
[14:59:53] <Magician|> Thanks alex_joni
[15:00:32] <alex_joni> skunkworks: http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/~juve/
[15:02:41] <jmkasunich> nice little machines
[15:03:04] <skunkworks> boy - what kinda travel do those things have - emc2 conversion? :)
[15:03:32] <alex_joni> skunkworks: I wish ;)
[15:03:39] <alex_joni> hi john
[15:03:46] <jmkasunich> hi
[15:05:11] <skunkworks> I like the boards set across to get on the table :)
[15:05:34] <alex_joni> skunkworks: those are some serious tables ;)
[15:05:39] <skunkworks> very
[15:05:40] <alex_joni> I think 2 tables iirc
[15:05:50] <alex_joni> 2 of those carousel lathes
[15:06:02] <alex_joni> and 2 vertical mills (if that's the name)
[15:06:25] <jmkasunich> I like the "pendants"
[15:06:39] <jmkasunich> that look to be about a meter tall
[15:06:43] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: those are the controls
[15:06:46] <jmkasunich> right
[15:07:02] <alex_joni> pretty old (the most), only one retrofitted with a sinumerik
[15:28:36] <____Bo^Dick____> has anyone ever found an L297 or 298 in an inkjet or laserjet printer?
[15:30:04] <____Bo^Dick____> you know dot matrix printers are so damn hard to find nowadays
[15:30:11] <alex_joni> ____Bo^Dick____: don't think you'll find one, usually they are integrated into a larger chip these days
[15:30:45] <____Bo^Dick____> probably
[15:35:13] <____Bo^Dick____> they're all surface mounted as well too
[15:37:32] <____Bo^Dick____> btw, it would be intresting to hear from someone who has managed to actually find an L297 or 298 in an old printer or scanner for example
[15:39:03] <jmkasunich> Bo^Dick... you are getting a bit repetitious
[15:39:21] <jmkasunich> if somebody had found one they would have answered you by now
[15:39:38] <jmkasunich> as alex said, modern printers usually have most of their electronics in a few large custom chips
[15:40:26] <____Bo^Dick____> yeah i know. that's why i'm aiming at the old stuff
[15:40:40] <____Bo^Dick____> now why do i wanna know this?
[15:40:57] <jmkasunich> and whats with the "____Bo^Dick____" nick? a little long isn't it?
[15:41:27] <____Bo^Dick____> it's easier to locate when the channel gets messy
[15:41:55] <jmkasunich> until everybody else starts doing the same thing and it makes the channel even messier
[15:42:41] <____Bo^Dick____> no on the contrary. if people would have like <<<<<<<Steve>>>>>>> or like ########joan######## and stuff it's easier to navigate
[15:43:01] <cradek> you should be able to configure any modern irc client to highlight messages to and from you (without irritating everyone else)
[15:43:02] <____Bo^Dick____> i can admit it's ugly but practical
[15:43:02] <jmkasunich> anyway, I assume you are asking because you can't find anyplace to buy a new one, so you want to scavenge an old one
[15:43:16] <____Bo^Dick____> that the very situation yes
[15:43:38] <____Bo^Dick____> they aren't selled in sweden those little suckers thus leaving me in misery
[15:43:46] <jmkasunich> xchat (installed on ubuntu) has a default config that puts your own messages in gray instead of black
[15:44:11] <____Bo^Dick____> is xchat a client or a script?`
[15:44:15] <jmkasunich> client
[15:44:23] <jmkasunich> the default IRC client on ubuntu
[15:44:41] <____Bo^Dick____> in fact it's a little funny that the regular mIRC don't have that feature.
[15:44:44] <jmkasunich> its hard to believe the entire nation of Sweden has no electronics industry
[15:44:51] <alex_joni> ____Bo^Dick____: mIRC does have that
[15:44:53] <cradek> or mail service
[15:44:56] <alex_joni> you need to enable it though
[15:45:01] <alex_joni> hi chris
[15:45:03] <cradek> hi
[15:45:13] <cradek> thanks for helping Magician while I had to go
[15:45:15] <alex_joni> ____Bo^Dick____: you can even enable beeping & flashing when your name appears
[15:45:17] <jmkasunich> granted, it can be hard to find suppliers that want to sell to individuals, but still....
[15:45:20] <alex_joni> cradek: no sweat
[15:45:29] <jepler> bo: I don't really think it helps anything
[15:45:33] <____Bo^Dick____> well then it's funny that it's in the off state as default
[15:45:41] <alex_joni> ANY electronics store over here can sell L297 & L298
[15:45:55] <alex_joni> and this is far away from sweden (less developed country)
[15:46:05] <____Bo^Dick____> well if you find it in my local dealer www.elfa.se please let me know
[15:46:16] <alex_joni> you only have 1 dealer?
[15:46:36] <____Bo^Dick____> that's the far biggest and established one here yes
[15:46:36] <jmkasunich> in the entire country?
[15:46:42] <____Bo^Dick____> yepp
[15:46:54] <____Bo^Dick____> afaik
[15:47:00] <cradek> in that case maybe you should call and ask them to get it
[15:47:07] <____Bo^Dick____> so the situation sucks pretty hard
[15:47:44] <alex_joni> ____Bo^Dick____: forgive me if I am doubtfull about that
[15:48:24] <____Bo^Dick____> alex_joni: where are you located?
[15:48:28] <alex_joni> romania
[15:48:42] <____Bo^Dick____> show me a link to your dealer
[15:49:56] <alex_joni> ____Bo^Dick____: I don't have 'dealers', I usually walk to the first store and buy them
[15:50:02] <alex_joni> this is BASIC stuff
[15:50:19] <____Bo^Dick____> well show me a link to a store then
[15:50:21] <alex_joni> http://www.vitacom.ro/
[15:51:45] <alex_joni> http://www.arrow.com/ <- in sweden
[15:52:06] <jmkasunich> alex: to be honest, I doubt radio shack (the only real "walk in" electronics place we have) would have L298s
[15:52:17] <jmkasunich> but there are bunches of mail-order places that do
[15:52:19] <alex_joni> http://www.ebv.com/en/websearch_results.html?search=L297 <- in sweden
[15:52:35] <cradek> even in big cities in the US we have to order things like this
[15:52:50] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: they don't always have them, but I can walk there and order if they are out of stock
[15:53:01] <alex_joni> usually 1-2 days and they got them
[15:53:15] <alex_joni> but this isn't true for any parts..
[15:53:31] <alex_joni> that's why I said 297/298 are BASIC ones.. I couldn't get fancy IGBT's or such
[15:54:11] <alex_joni> ____Bo^Dick____: http://www.ebv.com/en/locations/office_addresses/sales_offices/sweden.html
[15:54:29] <alex_joni> they are in Malm´┐Ż and in Sollentuna
[15:55:01] <jmkasunich> alex: I do notice a minimum quantity of 20 pieces
[15:55:11] <____Bo^Dick____> hmmm
[15:55:22] <____Bo^Dick____> that could be a problem
[15:55:39] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: these are the big guys.. they should have local retailers
[15:55:47] <alex_joni> ____Bo^Dick____: in what city are you in?
[15:56:04] <____Bo^Dick____> stockhold
[15:56:14] <____Bo^Dick____> -d +m
[15:56:45] <skunkworks> when I was younger I had contacted a electronic company and was able to get a few samples of the pwm stepper chip I was looking at.
[15:56:58] <alex_joni> yeah, most send samples too
[15:57:49] <skunkworks> (that was when you could not get them from mouser/digikey)
[15:58:09] <alex_joni> I got some MAX232 samples once
[15:58:15] <alex_joni> or was that 233?
[15:58:39] <alex_joni> again a chip you can find around any corner
[16:00:03] <____Bo^Dick____> what does the MAX232 chip do?
[16:01:00] <jmkasunich> RS-232 to/from TTL translator
[16:02:07] <____Bo^Dick____> ok
[16:02:44] <____Bo^Dick____> the "EBV elektronik" was promising but the minimum order or 20 pieces sure makes some trouble for me
[16:03:03] <____Bo^Dick____> a lot of trouble that is
[16:03:18] <anonimasu> ,hm
[16:03:23] <alex_joni> MAX233 is the same but with the caps onboard
[16:03:29] <alex_joni> iirc
[16:03:44] <____Bo^Dick____> why are we talking about the MAX232 and 233?
[16:03:48] <anonimasu> lol
[16:03:53] <alex_joni> ____Bo^Dick____: why not?
[16:04:03] <skunkworks> :)
[16:04:11] <alex_joni> they are nice chips
[16:04:18] <____Bo^Dick____> what are they used for?
[16:04:23] <alex_joni> and you need them if you want to make a micro talk to a PC
[16:04:34] <____Bo^Dick____> ok
[16:04:51] <alex_joni> the PC uses EIA levels for serial communication (+/- 15V or so)
[16:05:04] <alex_joni> most microcontrollers use TTL levels (0-5V)
[16:05:12] <alex_joni> the MAX232 does the voltage conversion
[16:05:13] <____Bo^Dick____> i know. thats why i'll go for the parallel port instead
[16:05:31] <alex_joni> well, serial has some advantages
[16:05:35] <alex_joni> in some cases
[16:05:36] <anonimasu> you still need optoisolators..
[16:05:39] <____Bo^Dick____> is there an advantage with the EIA system?
[16:05:48] <____Bo^Dick____> longer cables?
[16:05:49] <alex_joni> ____Bo^Dick____: how about up to 2km distance?
[16:05:56] <____Bo^Dick____> ok
[16:06:02] <alex_joni> less wires
[16:06:19] <alex_joni> wider spread.. standard protocol, etc
[16:06:32] <alex_joni> I presume you don't use actual LPT protocols
[16:07:04] <____Bo^Dick____> yeah i've seen commersial stepper and servo drives with serial port communication only. the parallel is for us amateurs
[16:07:29] <____Bo^Dick____> well i'm not gonna use serial communication at all.
[16:07:33] <anonimasu> hm, you can send data through the lpt too is you want..
[16:07:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes for a nap
[16:07:41] <alex_joni> later guys
[16:07:53] <skunkworks> bye
[16:08:02] <skunkworks> sleep tight
[16:08:12] <anonimasu> laters
[16:11:58] <____Bo^Dick____> the "Arrow" company doesn't seem to have a freetext search engine. how much does that suck?
[17:12:06] <Bo^Dick> is there other constructions than the L297/8 board that are of intrest in this channel?
[17:13:16] <Bo^Dick> or have you guys bought commersial drivers for your steppers/servos?
[17:15:57] <alex_joni> Bo^Dick: you could get an L293 and drive it directly from parport (phase-stepping)
[17:18:21] <anonimasu> Bo^Dick: elfa has stepper drivers..
[17:18:38] <anonimasu> chips too
[17:18:42] <anonimasu> NJM 3517
[17:19:01] <anonimasu> NJM 3717
[17:19:13] <anonimasu> TCM3727
[17:19:15] <anonimasu> err
[17:19:20] <anonimasu> tca3727
[17:19:28] <anonimasu> NJM 3770A
[17:19:50] <anonimasu> L 6204
[17:20:01] <anonimasu> A 3955
[17:20:09] <anonimasu> search for "stegmo"
[17:20:54] <anonimasu> brb dinner
[17:33:31] <skunkworks> we have comercial drives for our stepper projects - mostly compumotor/parker
[17:33:42] <skunkworks> gecko is good also
[17:52:38] <Bo^Dick> thx
[18:01:35] <anonimasu> skunkworks: he's trying to build drives himself
[18:01:36] <anonimasu> :)
[18:02:26] <anonimasu> skunkworks: as geckos are expensive..
[18:02:36] <skunkworks> I know - we have been trying to stear him away from that.
[18:02:50] <anonimasu> hehe
[18:02:51] <anonimasu> ^_^
[18:02:56] <skunkworks> trying to atleast get him to use the design that cradek is using
[18:03:33] <anonimasu> yep
[18:04:25] <anonimasu> skunkworks: I could bet you the time($) spent equals a full system with geckos..
[18:08:23] <skunkworks> oh for sure. but you can't get upset when it doesn't perform. it is a learning experience.
[18:10:05] <anonimasu> but a doing it for to learn it is a different thing from doing it because commercial drives are expensive..
[18:10:54] <anonimasu> but it migh just be me.
[18:33:19] <giacus> giacus is now known as giacus_afk
[18:48:53] <Bo^Dick> what is the minimum recommended current and voltage rating for a stepper driver intended for CNC purposes?
[18:54:19] <alex_joni> that depends on the motor you are driving and nothing else
[18:54:32] <alex_joni> you can have very small CNC's
[18:56:59] <Bo^Dick> i'm in a good mood now :D :D :D
[18:58:36] <Bo^Dick> i did send a mail to phil who is the guy hosting the PMinMO site! i proposed the half-step compensation modification and he was very positive to the proposal!
[18:59:03] <Bo^Dick> want me to give a link to the mail?
[19:00:22] <Bo^Dick> if someone else in the channel still doesn't have stepper drivers
[19:02:31] <Bo^Dick> maybe i should discuss stepper driver hardware in the electronics channel instead?
[19:02:39] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. The network is currently not accepting new connections while we work through some cloaking issues. Thanks!
[19:07:41] <alex_joni> Bo^Dick: if you find people to talk this to, it's ok in here too
[19:08:00] <alex_joni> just don't clutter th echannel too much if there are users asking for help on emc ;)
[19:18:30] <Bo^Dick> 1eagle seems to be an 4awsome1 program
[19:22:12] <Bo^Dick> how do i toggle between design and layout?
[19:25:32] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. In regard our connect problems, we'll periodically reopen connections for just a moment in order to make sure you aren't shut out. Thanks!
[19:27:07] <Bo^Dick> ok i admit, i suck at using eagle. how do i select parts and wires so i can move them just like in orcad or pspice?
[19:27:36] <Bo^Dick> you know i'm gonna add some parts and thus needs to move down some of them
[19:28:14] <jepler> select the "move" command by clicking the icon or typing "move" and pressing enter
[19:28:29] <jepler> then left click the part to move, and left click again to place it
[19:28:43] <jepler> if several parts overlap, it goes into a mode where you choose the one you meant
[19:29:50] <Bo^Dick> i wanna drag and drop so i can select several parts and wires at once. isn't that the "group" button?
[19:30:31] <jepler> yes. First use group to define the items, then select move, then right-click to move the group instead of a single item
[19:31:21] <Bo^Dick> ok. it was the right click i didn't know about. thx!
[19:32:11] <jepler> keep an eye on the status bar at the bottom
[19:32:24] <jepler> when a group is defined, the status bar reminds you that you can use the right button
[19:33:37] <giacus_afk> giacus_afk is now known as giacus
[19:34:06] <Bo^Dick> how do i set so that all wiring is ortogonal?
[19:35:29] <Bo^Dick> the damned wires bend and twist all along when moving them around
[19:35:48] <TorbaX_away> TorbaX_away is now known as TorbaX
[19:43:28] <Bo^Dick> btw, is it possible to simulate a design in eagle?
[19:44:13] <alex_joni> Bo^Dick: usually yes, but it depends what design
[19:44:50] <Bo^Dick> in fact what i would like to do is to simulate the L297/8 stepper driver design
[19:45:08] <Bo^Dick> then i could check if the torque compensation would work
[19:49:24] <anonimasu> hm what does torque compensation do?
[19:49:32] <jepler> eagle doesn't really do simulation
[19:50:05] <anonimasu> allow you to have more holding torque during half stepping/microstepping?
[19:51:09] <jepler> anonimasu: yes
[19:51:30] <Bo^Dick> the feature is called "half-step torque compensation" and it does what the name implies. in fact besides that it add 40% more torque it runs the stepper motor smoother too.
[19:51:45] <anonimasu> hm, how much heat does it add?
[19:54:22] <Bo^Dick> you mean heat to the motor windings?
[19:54:51] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:54:54] <alex_joni> and the drive itself (more current)
[19:55:10] <Bo^Dick> none at all. not to the motor, nor to the driver
[19:55:33] <anonimasu> Bo^Dick: more current equals more heat..
[19:55:38] <Bo^Dick> it does only shape the signal so it's more similar to a sine wave and that makes the system 40% more effective
[19:56:23] <Bo^Dick> what i'm trying to say is that the torque compensation adds torque while maintaining the current levels. it just changes shape on the current curve
[19:57:40] <Bo^Dick> so i can only see advantages with this feature
[19:57:58] <anonimasu> have you tried it?
[19:58:14] <anonimasu> on a real motor?
[19:58:19] <Bo^Dick> no
[19:58:41] <anonimasu> ok
[19:58:47] <Bo^Dick> i'm just redirecting information i've got from other sources
[19:59:34] <Bo^Dick> but i'm seriously struggling to understand eagle thats for sure
[20:00:06] <Bo^Dick> there must be shortcuts for selecting objects and moving them around
[20:00:07] <anonimasu> hehe
[20:00:24] <anonimasu> I am contemplating going out to machine some parts..
[20:01:46] <Bo^Dick> how do i add a simple resistor?`
[20:02:21] <Bo^Dick> of course i could copy paste from another one
[20:02:48] <anonimasu> hm, isnt there a symbol library?
[20:02:51] <anonimasu> "add symbol"
[20:02:55] <anonimasu> or something like that
[20:03:11] <Bo^Dick> yeah but i got stuck at the resistor networks somehow. don't ask me how i did that
[20:03:57] <Bo^Dick> alright, have patience with me. now i wanna change the value of that resistor
[20:04:03] <Bo^Dick> :P
[20:04:38] <Bo^Dick> you know i'm used to pspice and this is completely different :S
[20:06:53] <Bo^Dick> sorry
[20:11:51] <Bo^Dick> but this time i'm serious. i select a wire and press the 'delete' key. guess what. nothing happens!
[20:12:08] <lilo> [Global Notice] almost there, thanks for your patience....we should be back up continuously in just a bit
[20:12:37] <Bo^Dick> how can the delete key not be associated with deleting parts or wires?
[20:30:19] <Bo^Dick> how do i do a netlist check on a schematic in eagle?
[20:30:40] <jmkasunich> RTFM
[20:31:19] <Bo^Dick> ok
[20:32:00] <Bo^Dick> "unknown command"
[20:36:27] <Bo^Dick> there's a part named "IC5P" in the schematic. how can i search for it? can't see it in the schematic
[20:39:44] <Bo^Dick> you may wonder why on earth i'm not going through a tutorial but i just wanna make one simple modification to the board. i'm stubling behind the finish line
[20:43:18] <Bo^Dick> but this sucks so hard. the unmodified schematic compiles with warnings only. the modified generates: "ERROR: Sheet 1/1: no SUPPLY for implicit POWER Pin IC5P VCC". i haven't modified that part at all!
[20:43:53] <Bo^Dick> that has no relevance whatsoever with the other part of the schematic i've modified
[20:45:20] <Bo^Dick> you've got to help me. i'm too stupid for this
[20:48:57] <anonimasu> hm, isnt there a manual?
[21:02:42] <Bo^Dick> how do i show the implicit power supply pins for a part in eagle?
[21:04:36] <jmkasunich> most of us don't know any more about eagle than you do
[21:05:12] <jmkasunich> read the manual, google, find the eagle site and see if they have their own IRC channel, etc
[21:13:33] <Bo^Dick> btw, about the pminmo design. have you seen the huge diodes on the board? do they really need to be that large and bulky?
[21:14:00] <Bo^Dick> i mean the design can only handle 2.5 amps max anyway
[23:16:52] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. It looks as if we've managed to find our problems. We were experiencing difficulties in labeling attacking bots, and for that reason we had to turn off incoming connections and just turn them on intermittently. We believe we've resolved the issues.
[23:17:36] <Imperator_> logger_aj:bookmark
[23:17:36] <Imperator_> See http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-04-08#T23-17-36
[23:17:53] <lilo> [Global Notice] We may still have occasional cases during the morning where we block new connections for two or three minutes at a time, but we think we've solved most of the related issues. Additional detail on wallops if you're interested. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
[23:18:47] <Imperator_> jmkasunich: i have read something about that mesuring item we spoke at NIST
[23:19:04] <jmkasunich> ballbar?
[23:19:13] <Imperator_> jep, that was the name
[23:19:57] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega is at Notacon
[23:20:16] <Imperator_> did you know that they have the two balls only laying on three smaller balls ?? Holded by a magnet
[23:21:11] <alex_joni> asdfqwega: we can see that
[23:21:16] <alex_joni> asdfqwega [n=thomas@static-3.notacon-2006.n2net.net] has joined #emc
[23:23:51] <Imperator_> such a ballbar is than realy simple to make
[23:30:12] <cradek> cool, I'm running tort-xyza.ngc on a real 4 axis system
[23:30:26] <cradek> it's funny to see xyz helixes with A rotating
[23:30:39] <alex_joni> lol
[23:30:49] <alex_joni> cradek: any way to share that with us?
[23:31:03] <Imperator_> cool
[23:31:06] <cradek> I can share the program but that's about it
[23:31:12] <cradek> * cradek finally has an A axis again
[23:31:16] <alex_joni> was thinking video ;)
[23:31:17] <jmkasunich> the axis backplot doesn't show A does it?
[23:31:31] <cradek> yes, it rotates the cone
[23:31:38] <alex_joni> so it's R ;)
[23:32:00] <cradek> yes, guess so
[23:32:04] <jmkasunich> that must look very strange
[23:32:10] <alex_joni> that's the best way chris
[23:32:12] <cradek> rotates around the X axis, whichever RPW that is
[23:32:20] <alex_joni> RPW is the way to go with the display
[23:32:25] <Imperator_> A
[23:32:33] <alex_joni> unless there's a way to specify additional stuff about the machine
[23:32:41] <cradek> right
[23:32:54] <alex_joni> Imperator_: A is a rotary table, R is a rotation of the head
[23:33:29] <alex_joni> R is a rotation centered on the X axis by definition, A is not
[23:33:40] <cradek> it's sure nice to see all the TP problems solved (combined linear and angular moves)
[23:34:00] <cradek> last time I had an A axis was in emc1, and it worked very badly
[23:34:03] <jmkasunich> for some value of solved
[23:34:09] <alex_joni> cradek: do you have an yahoo account?
[23:34:19] <cradek> I'm not sure
[23:34:21] <alex_joni> * alex_joni stumbled upon some weird stuff on geckodrive
[23:34:42] <alex_joni> there are some plots of EMC path vs. MAVG path
[23:34:52] <alex_joni> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/geckodrive/files/Comparison%20of%20MAVG%20and%20EMC/
[23:35:15] <cradek> huh, g28 doesn't send A home - is that a bug?
[23:35:33] <Imperator_> hm, don't know Alex. But al machines I know have named rotational Axis ABC regardless if the head or Tabel is moving. On five axis machines you have normaly on at the Table and one at the head and they are named A and B or so depending arround which axis they are rotating
[23:35:43] <cradek> alex_joni: I'm not a member so I can't see it
[23:35:54] <jmkasunich> I am, what specifically do you want to look at?
[23:38:09] <jmkasunich> hello alex? you still there?
[23:38:50] <alex_joni> yes
[23:39:06] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: sorry.. was replying to les newell
[23:39:07] <jmkasunich> yahoo are pricks... I can view the image, but when I right click and "save image as" it says it can't be found
[23:39:14] <alex_joni> huh?
[23:39:17] <jmkasunich> I was gonna post them on my web
[23:39:23] <jmkasunich> the two gifs
[23:40:03] <jmkasunich> theres no info about how they created them
[23:40:12] <jmkasunich> what version of emc for instance?
[23:41:04] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: right.. that confused me too
[23:41:14] <alex_joni> I think he wrote an app with the TP from emc, and with mavg
[23:41:16] <jmkasunich> are there messages to go witht he files
[23:41:18] <alex_joni> and used that to plot
[23:41:22] <jmkasunich> with the files
[23:41:35] <alex_joni> yes: 7996
[23:41:40] <jmkasunich> so an ancient TP probably, unless "he" is following emc2
[23:41:51] <Imperator_> cradek: it would be very interesting to see a smal video (maybe created by a simple digital camera)
[23:41:52] <alex_joni> no, ancient TP
[23:42:55] <alex_joni> cradek: http://www.robcon.ro/emc/EMC.gif & MAVG.gif
[23:43:54] <jepler> What's MAVG?
[23:44:40] <cradek> interesting - which one does he think is better? they are clearly different
[23:44:45] <jmkasunich> Mariss's moving average blending algorithm
[23:45:06] <alex_joni> cradek: he says emc is a bit better, ideally he says there should be no blending at all
[23:45:10] <cradek> with emc2 you could now get whatever amount of rounding you want
[23:45:26] <jmkasunich> yeah, hes using ancient emc code
[23:45:27] <cradek> eh? no blending at all is trivial (and not what you want)
[23:45:30] <jepler> no blendng? "exact stop"?
[23:45:30] <alex_joni> 'but emc seems to have some problems so he had to turn down accel'
[23:45:42] <alex_joni> jepler: 'exact path'
[23:45:45] <jmkasunich> thats the bugs that cradek fixed in the last few months
[23:45:49] <alex_joni> at full speed if possible ;)
[23:45:55] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: _I_ know
[23:45:59] <alex_joni> the others don't
[23:46:11] <jmkasunich> you are replying to that list?
[23:46:17] <jepler> fast, accurate, inexpensive: you might get two if you're lucky
[23:46:30] <jmkasunich> MAVG is fast and inexpensive
[23:46:38] <cradek> jepler: the rotary axis works again
[23:46:45] <jmkasunich> he's implementing it in a Z-80 clone
[23:46:51] <cradek> jepler: not sure why, I never use it, but it works
[23:47:22] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I replied just for fun
[23:47:28] <jmkasunich> ok
[23:47:28] <alex_joni> I don't follow the list usually
[23:47:47] <alex_joni> just stumbled upon the folder saying EMC today, and it made me curious ;)
[23:48:09] <alex_joni> but it seems to me they are quite advanced on Mach 4 + G100
[23:48:34] <jmkasunich> the g-rex is interesting, I just wish I had more time to mess with it
[23:48:46] <jmkasunich> I have one, and the development kit
[23:49:03] <jmkasunich> someday (I hope) I will write a dumb-mode HAL driver for it
[23:49:27] <alex_joni> heh, and matching firmware?
[23:49:34] <jmkasunich> if needed
[23:49:44] <alex_joni> that might be a pita
[23:49:57] <jmkasunich> I dunno whether they dropped dumb mode or if its still part of the fw
[23:50:22] <alex_joni> they are pretty far away from anything decided
[23:50:32] <alex_joni> that's why mariss is very vague on his website
[23:51:58] <alex_joni> lol, he even got an email about that:
[23:51:59] <alex_joni> "you have a product but no description of it
[23:51:59] <alex_joni> are you idiots?
[23:52:01] <alex_joni> you need to have specs and features, a general description and method
[23:52:01] <alex_joni> of operation (the protocol, high level/low level etc)
[23:52:04] <alex_joni> what software is included with it if any and whether it is compatible
[23:52:07] <alex_joni> with other software.
[23:52:09] <alex_joni> It's fantastically stupid that it's not there and incredible that I
[23:52:12] <alex_joni> have to tell you this
[23:52:14] <alex_joni> so get moving
[23:52:17] <alex_joni> "
[23:53:22] <jmkasunich> I saw that
[23:53:26] <jmkasunich> what an idiot
[23:53:28] <alex_joni> ROFL
[23:53:46] <alex_joni> kinda reminds me of someone we all love