avr's are much easier to program...
I just found a page about thier 'butterfly', have you used it?
seems cheap, for what you get.
i havent used it, but it seems like an ok deal
i'd rather buy the parts separately so i can use them for something real
got enough toys laying around
wait, no i dont
* fenn slaps fenn
$20 just to get something I can start with in on box seems pretty good.
les_w somebody let you out of your cage?
whats a good AC servo controlle for EMC?
are you handy with electronics?
if not, there's rutex
cool thanks.. I know people who are..
is that icee's unit?
[02:48:23] <fenn> http://forums.donniebarnes.com/viewtopic.php?t=52
<- more here
"another integrated powerstage alternative, Fairchild FSBB15CH60, chepaer than the iramx at only 14usd and should do the same thing..."
according to etla
who what all do you need for the Fairchild FSBB15CH60?
power supply, bus capacitors, maybe opto-isolation, terminal lugs, big fat PC board
probably other stuff
read the datasheet!
would i be totally insane to try to build my own VFD?
what makes you think you're not already?
just wondering if there's really that much difference between building a 2.4kw brushless servo system and a 3kw vfd
fenn: not much, but neither is trivial
the difference is in the control algorithms
like vector vs sine table lookup?
more than that
would be nice to have spare parts that work for everything
hmm scratch that last comment
past my bedtime
SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
I wish I could find the site that had the 3phase servo motor built into a PCI card
motor controler that is
Reggio Calabria 14�C
air of spring here around :P
spring air :D
Nice. Snow here again.
again ? oh ..
will end soon ;)
It's usually gone by mid April.
I eard on tv about 1 meter snow in some place there ..
but its the last snow :)
We always hope so.
giacus is now known as giacus_afk
long time no see
just got back from chicago business trip
things went very very well.
i'm tired though...no more work this week
nice for you
not much more work for me either
it was bitter cold up there
it's almost 5pm friday ;)
I want to wash the salt off of the car today
are you ready for emc2? :D
well, some of the business contracts might involve emc2 for factory automation
the HAL might make that attractive
nice.. the TP is very stable (until proven contrary) ;)
and G64 Pxxx is a nice feature you'll enjoy
not sure if you know about that
what is the Pxxx?
you can specify the max deviation on blending
say G64 P0.1
and it'll deviate only 0.1 inches from the checkpoint
of course adjusting speed to be able to do that
ah a chordal error control
and there's stuff for threading in there ;)
[14:22:06] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?TrajectoryControl
I may need a very high speed trim to frequency thing for fourth oeder ceramic resonators
as you were one of the people who had problems with the old TP, your testing would be very appreciated
looking forward to it
what is the best way to get emc2 on a box?
follow this: http://timeguy.com/cradek/emc/ubuntu
half an hour or so installing
looks pretty easy
will need another box though
i'll order something
it is very easy.. another HDD might be enough
les_w: if you're worried about downloading ubuntu, you can request free cd's
03jepler * 10emc2/src/depend.sh.in: rework script, fix TEST vs DEST typo which led to an error removing the directory .tmp on farm machines
well, I need to go to a faster box and motenc
les_w: stg has a PCI version planned ;) (but that's inside information:P)
I will be snowed with work for a little bit here
it should be due sometimes this summer
combination of contracts and tax
stg has had a pci version planned since the late 90's
It's time for me to incorporate
it sure was cold up your way
I thought they lost that vision when they moved to the midwest.
rayh: I just got word from them the other day
Warm here, cold in the windy city.
Ah. Okay. Well that's good to hear. Any word on price?
gotta get the salt off the new car!
rayh: not yet, they asked though what's needed to be supported by EMC2 ;)
Did they offer you a card for writing the driver?
well my reason for motenc is the demonstrated 8k servo update
as opposed to 2k or so for the stg
m5i20 could also run that rate of update.
rayh: not yet.. but we'll see, there's time
they said sometimes later this year.. so who knows ;)
Will be interesting to see.
I see that usdigital has a 3 axis encoder read card but it's to much money for this crowd.
The last textile mill here in the county has announced it will close so I will grab their machine shop stuff I hope
of pop 11,000 or so
920 jobs lost
Sounds like a good opportunity.
Sad for the US economy.
oh well...I need to hire people. I'll have a better labor pool
I have to talkwith the county gov people
I need some incentives
or I will go elsewhere
I could get you a 3 story building, about 50k of floor in Crytal Falls for a buck.
like south carolina
Nice lobby. Full commercial kitchen with bakery.
My blood has thinned out. It's too cold up there for me!!!
3 phase 240
I froze my a$$ off
Cant' say I didn't try.
ITW asked me to return.
I said no.
Then they asked me to work as an employee from here.
I said no again.
Then they asked about a long term contract
I said yes
What speed is the processor in the control that you have there now.
it's an old k6 200
it just can't do axis etc I expect
axis does ok-not-great on PII-300
I believe I'd slap a second hd in their and install ubuntu.
and if I am going to change it out I will certainly want to get something other than the stg
I'm thinking a software only comparison with what you have now.
the stg would be good enough for a vertical mill though
Skip axis. Use what you've got.
That way you'll know if there is an improvement.
poping in a hd would be the way then
when you install ubuntu, you can try all the guis, everything is there.
Yep. When you install ubuntu you can set it up on the second drive only.
back from chicago and I am tired but very happy.
I'd actually unplug the existing drive for safe keeping.
Any gui will be slow to refresh but that should not affect the motion performance.
Alex has the stg driver in place.
With the same pinouts so the change is all software.
do you have some old 4 gig disk around?
This is a little stretch but I called my mom in florida.....
I said...Hi mom. Guess what? I'm rich.
so I can buy boxes and cards.
a critical question... will the performance be better if a separate current regulator is used for each h-bridge in a stepper driver?
well i really need to know
the short answer is probably "no"
i hope deep in my heart that you're right
hm, wait. current regulator?
In the systems I'm familiar with there's a regulated voltage, not a regulated current
that is, the power supply is a voltage supply
well for stepper drivers there are regulated currents instead of voltages
the h-bridge is driven by a chopper circuit that regulates the current through each motor winding
bbl...I have to unload a trunk full of tek digital scopes I got from one division that did not need them
les_w: sounds like the perfect door-prize for fest.
so the current must be limited separately for each winding?
les_w: where are you located?
Bo-Dick: In all the drivers I know (xylotex, l297+l298, gecko) the supply is a voltage supply and the driver has as its job delivering constant current to each winding
do you think one could "cheat" and only regulate the whole motor in one current regulator and get the same performance?
Bo-Dick: A set-up where there's a single current regulator, and its output is passed through a varying number of stepper windings, will have varying performance depending how many windings are activated
les_w: I'll trade you a nice ubuntu CD for one of them
so i can be pretty sure i'll not get the same performance when current limit all windings at once?
Bo-Dick: power = (current)^2 * resistance. If you activate two windings you have half the current through each of two windings, which I believe gives half the power
since torque is roughly proportional to power, that means the two-windings-on stages of half stepping will have half the torque of the one-winding-on stage
i'm not sure one can determine that from that viewpoint
but you _might_ be right
i also know that the commersial stepper drivers and parts use a separate for each winding but is that for practical reasons or does it affect performance? that's the intresting question.
i can admit i've overlooked this until now :(
* Bo-Dick needs a stepper guru right now
giacus_afk is now known as stepperguru
People do believe it affects performance. In fact, the one-current-regulator-per-winding approach is still not ideal. See page 13 in http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/1679.pdf
Bo-Dick: ^^ the circuit in that pdf gives higher per-winding current when 1 winding is active than when 2 are active, so that the torque in the one-winding-on step is not lower.
* Bo-Dick is strugglingto understand
before you ask for steppers, you should ask to yourself why peoples change the printer (using steppers) every 4 months
why stepper has no control
you just give a command and hope it go well
no control on it
i know that
if you manually move an head printer you lost position forever
(epson) and others
so say goodbay
thats the stepper
well i'm gonna use them in a CNC
I used that
be ready to lost step
they can always be calibrated and reset to the origin
and find the appropriate feedrate
to get best performance
Bo-Dick: false ..
stepper is very limited
encoders and feeback are the fineal solution
stepper is a toy
if you are looking for toys: http://giacus.altervista.org/photo/hobby/cnc/index.html
stepperguru is now known as giacus
steppers are just fine
I'm glad that's over
they are inexpensive, which is important for a hobbyist
good day gents..
and when configured right (not too aggressively on accel and max velocity) they are extremely dependable
hello ottos :)
got emc1 homimg ?
servos aren't perfect either. With steppers, get a missed step and ruin your work. With servos, get a following error and ruin your work. Half dozen of one, six of the other.
nope.. switched to Emc2...
ottos: nice :)
that brings me to a quiestion on hal configs..
jepler: I hate steppers :/
I tried ..
for seconday jobs maybe are ok
ottos: you're in the right place then
do you guys know here to change the bits on lim/home sw? in the hal config...
what kind of interface do you have?
SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
steppers or servos? hooked to the parallel port or an interface card?
servos.. motenc card..
have you made a custom configuration in your home directory yet?
there's a doc abou homing on emc2 I guess
nope, used the default one in motenc..
ok to make modifications, let's first copy the sample config to your home directory
at a command prompt, issue these two commands
mkdir -p ~/emc2/configs
cp -R /etc/emc2/sample-configs/motenc ~/emc2/configs
have to run back and forth to the machine..
you are using ubuntu right?
why use the son when you know the father ?
giacus: please stop helping
* giacus preparing to go at stallman conference in 27
ok done.. in home dir..
cradek.. what is my next move..?
ottos: cradek got called away. I'm not sure when he'll be back
ottos: but hopefully in a few minutes
ottos, do you have all the info on where the limit switches are connected?
y all was working on emc1, is come up but I have to change the polarity of all switches..
emc2 comes up but stayes in e-stop..
ok. you'll probably need to edit the moteni_io.hal file in the directory you just created
oops - motenc_io.hal
pico is fine.. what bits? or is the greates smaller sign it?
pico or nano will be fine
ok let me try..
were you asking about the "=>" and "<=" in the files?
linksp Xhome <= motenc.0.in-02
linksp Xhome => axis.0.home-sw-in
In this pair of lines, the input pin is linked to the home switch
changing the first line to read
linksp Xhome <= motenc.0.in-02-not
will make emc2 use the inverted value
<= and => are a convenience to the person writing the file, as a reminder of which way the information moves (Xhome comes from motenc.0.in-02-not and goes to axis.0.home-sw-in)
yes.. I see what you mean..
i still haven't understood if there are any difference between current regulating each winding separately and current regulating all windings at once.
Bo-Dick, you must limit current individually for each winding
are u sure about this?
unless you want to severely decrease performance of the motors
the only other way of insuring that you won't fry a coil is to make the overall limit the same as the limit for one coil
let me try.. you will be around for a while?
which will truly suck if you're driving two coils
you're absolutely right
that's what I was trying to explain earlier, but I guess I failed.
well SWPadnos managed to explain it so clearly
i've got some serious resoldering to do now :S
guys, is it true that full-step sucks?
i read something about "signal shaping"
...for half step
without signal shaping one would loose 40% torgue when half steppin'
_with_ signal shaping one would only loss 5%
you can do half-step with full torque if you run half current (actually, sqrt(2)-1, I think) through the "other" coil
can signal shaping be done with pwm?
yes, that's how chopper drives work
Bo-Dick: that's what was illustrated on page 13 of that pdf I mentioned earlier, http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/1679.pdf
stangely enough, the gecko can accept up to 250k steps/second, but the current limiting chopper runs at 20 KHz
I don't get how that works
when the motor is moving, there's little or no chopping necessary
i have a vague idea how that could work
I suppose that's true - once you get to 10K or 20K steps/sec, you won't be current limited (though ideally you still would be)
how can the coils accept those high frequencies?
that's why they recommend 5x to 25x the stepper rated voltage
so the current can build up faster
Bo-Dick: the chop period is much less than the time constant for the motor inductor, which is why chopping works
how can signal shaping and current limiting be done by the same chopper?
just shape the current "signal" - that's what affects torque anyway
giacus is now known as giacus_afk
do you guys know if the default pinout has been changed on the motenc-100..?
ottos, it's possible that it's changed from emc1
but it would be good to know for sure, I think the idea is to minimize rewiring ;)
(for people upgrading)
I'm pretty sure everyone's goal is to have the default match emc1 as much as possible
go it working.. seems great.. have to retune the PID...
for which ever reason output pins for amp enable ware rerouted to spindle etc, and amp pins weare rerouted to secondary bank...
* Jymmm thoought everyone's goal was to get les_w laid without him saying "I do".
is TkEmc.nml for font changes the same or has is been changed? if so does anyone know where?
what would be the best way to control a Baldor AC servo motor?
ottos, I hope you mean Tkemc.tcl ??
you can put a font choice in the ini file if you want.
in the DISPLAY section, add an item called POSITION_FONT
with 3 values:
typeface pitch style
POSITION_FONT = courier 48 bold
sed_: probably a matching servo drive (frequency controlled), with analog interface and something like a Motenc to drive it
ok let me try..
sed.. Yaskawa makes some nice servos.. and you can find them cheap on ebay.. 100$ pair for a 200W..
nice.. work great.. is there a way to shrink the whole thing... I only have a 640x480 lcd so 24 seems huge...
just put 10-12 there
there is a menu setting where you can set the font
I know still too big...
so you can test a bit till you find the right value, then write it to the ini
as far as I know, the only font size you can change is the position readout
ottos I was looking at some Baldor servo's at a good price
the rest of the display can't be made all that small
SWPadnos: all fonts can be changed, but not from the ini
hard to find info about the Servo Drives
you can try mini though, that scales pretty well
there is a file called TkEmc which gets installed somewhere(looking now where)
sed...true.. I've had my share of headaches with matched amp/motors.. and motenc/ emc..
that file holds some preferences for TkEmc.tcl
SWPadnos: talking about .debs
but yes, that's the file
there were 2 of them in emc1 (TkEmc.big & .small) or something similar
or maybe /etc/X11/app-defaults/TkEmc
one of those two places
ottos: if you find the file in either location, you need to use 'sudo pico foo/TkEmc' to edit it
! Default font is "variable", aka 12-point Helvetica bold.
! For 640x480 displays, use 10 point font.
! See /usr/X11/lib/X11/fonts/misc/fonts.alias for others.
ottos: just change the *top*font: line to read 10 instead of 12
TkEmc, TkEmcS and TkEmc are in /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults on my BDI machine
If you do that, be aware that the next time you upgrade the "emc2" package you'll lose the changes.
oops - that last was TkEmcL
we are talking emc2 right..?
I'm booting to check, but I think the files are in /etc/X11/app-defaults
if so, the update will ask you whether you want to keep your changes or not
cradek: oh, ok
it will warn you that you changed a configuration file, and allow you to keep your changes or install the new one
both, one is a symlink to the other ;)
cradek: it does that with the GUI updater too?
ottos: to summarize ;)
1. 'sudo pico /etc/X11/app-defaults/TkEmc'
2. change the 12 with 10 on the *top*font: line
It's better to use 'sudo -e filename' than 'sudo $EDITOR filename'.
3. when you upgrade emc2 in the future it will tell you that you modified your local version of /etc/X11/app-defaults/TkEmc, and you'll need to tell it that you want to keep the modified version
especially with editors that write configuration files to your home directory .. I don't know if pico does or not.
jepler: I usually use mcedit with sudo, no sweat
but thanks for the advice. sudo -e opens a default editor?
It uses $EDITOR, if set
for the user or for root?
whatever is in the invoking environment
does it default to vi if $EDITOR isn't set?
2. The editor specified by the VISUAL or EDITOR environment
variables is run to edit the temporary files. If neither
VISUAL nor EDITOR are set, the program listed in the editor
sudoers variable is used.
I don't know. maybe the manual page says;
Has anyone used a oxygen-hydrogen torch?
Jymmm: I have
that would be a good reason to make sure I sset EDITOR
Jymmm: wanna cut metal? or weld?
actually oxygen-acetylen is what I used
alex_joni: whats the main diff?
I've used oxy-acetylene too
lots of times
Jymmm: between welding & cutting? or between acetylen & hydrogen ?
between acetylen & hydrogen
hydrogen is a bit more explosive
although acetylen can blow up too if you're not carefull
e.g. drop the bottle
is hydrogen hotter burning?
welding & cutting would be secondary... primary for flame polishing acrylic
yes, I think so, but a bit more unstable afaik
I came across this --> http://www.littletorch.com/caddy.html
acetylene isn't very clean, it smokes
acetylen needs to be stablized with acitone for it to be safe under more than 30psi
which is why jewelers use oxy-propane
(making that pressure up but its somthing low)
cradek Ah, that would make sense for using hydrogen instead.
that might be the reason, but I don't know about hydrogen
looking good.. thanx..
I know you can use oxy-natural gas or oxy-propane
Everywhere I looked ALL mentioned using oxy-hydro, never oxy-propane
ottos: great, another happy customer ;)
for melting plastic can't you use a plain hardware store propane torch?
it'll cost you $20 intead of $200
ya almost done.. still have to add my b/c axis to the hal config.. btw is some testing needs to be done on 5a-xis .. let me know..
cradek: I think it's basically the tips
ottos: let us know what problems still are there
Jymmm: I don't know what that means
from what we know it should work ok
Jymmm: what do you want to do ?
I'll work on it this whole afternoon.. will let you know..
alex_joni: <Jymmm> welding & cutting would be secondary... primary for flame polishing acrylic
Jymmm: I have a mini torch like that
how about those small burners with lighter gas?
about 5-10$ ?
I'm gonna try those first; but trying to just get info on the oxy-hydro so I have a better understanding. Everything I've read ALWAYS mentions using oxy-hydro instead of propane/maap
looks like it's much hotter
I'm thinking it's to prevent the acrylic from cracking
but I can't imagine why you'd need that
jewelers easily solder gold with natural gas
Hydrogen is the gas of choice when casting or melting platinum because its 4850�F flame burns clean. It is, however, more expensive than the other gases, not as readily available, and requires careful handling and storage.
Propane and natural gas produce carbon-free flames, which, although lower temperature than acetylene's (5252�F for propane, 5120�F for natural gas), are good all-purpose systems for most goldsmiths. However, these gases are dependant on availability.
yeah platinum is a problem for natural gas, but I think you can solder it with oxy-propane
hmm, real numbers
there's a big difference between them
gents I've noticed that spindle speed is routed to d I/O .. is +-10VDC to controll VFD an option?
ottos: sure it is
ottos: you can do anything you want with hal
the iocontroller in emc2 has lots of redundant outputs for spindle speed control
I guess hal will be my new religion...
there is a iocontrol.0.spindle-speed-out pin which you can connect to a DAC which will control your +/-10V VFD control
ottos: you said motend?
does the motenc have bipolar analog outputs, or does it use a direction bit?
ok, do you have a free DAC?
plenty of boath..
ok, then it's trivial..
3 lines of HAL at the most
you can do it one line too ;)
I guess that will be the next step...
linkpp iocontrol.0.spindle-speed-out motenc.0.dac-02-value
change that 02 with the number of your free DAC
does propane/lpg contain contaminates?
ottos: and you probably need to adjust gain & offset for that DAC too
depends what you call a contaminant
I think it usually/always has the stuff that makes it smell
ok.. anothe prob solved..
look at motenc_motion.hal and check for other dac-xx-*
cradek anything that would visually make clear acrylic icky
ottos: you can duplicate that stuff in there, and adjust for spindle-speed
Jymmm: no, it burns clean if you adjust the oxy right
I cook on bulk propane and never get ash on the pots or anything like that, and that's not a nice precise torch
That's the only thing I can think of why they keep mentioning oxy-hydro; hell here's a specific torch for it http://www.nationaltorch.com/Acrylic.htm
cradek: from bottles?
alex_joni 200 lb bottle
alex_joni: an outdoor tank
* Jymmm replaces cradek propane with LPG, Lets see if he notices....
I think propane and LPG are the same thing?
lpg is a mixture
lpg=lyquified petroleum gas?
without the bad spelling ;)
alex_joni I see you're using the elmer fudd method =)
we don't know what it is, but it burns
sounds like lunchmeat
we don't know what it is, but eat it in the middle of the day
I know you can't mix/match lpg/natural gas applicanes - something is different
aperture sizes are different (oxy mixture)
I hope to make one soon
[17:56:06] <Jymmm> http://www.modernplastics.com/april05/wdhemsaw.html
well, after the milling machine
what the... http://www.sdplastics.com/h20flamepolishingtorch.html
there's actually a water-burning electric fireplace you can get. it's very cool
err - warm
SWPadnos no gases involved?
it electrolyzes the water into oxygen and hydrogen, then burns them
cool, err warm.
[17:59:48] <SWPadnos> http://www.heatnglo.com/
sound EXACTLY like this thing
that may be why I thought of it ;)
the really interesting thing about that fireplace is that it doesn't need a chimney
too bad it's $50k
SWPadnos: yeah, and too bad that it has terrible efficiency
it's about the same as normal electric heat
which is crap, but still
it's lots more efficient to get a big resistor put into the water to heat it
all you have to do is get around 20 square meters of solar cells, and it'll be self-sustaining ;)
* Jymmm has 150K feet of NiChrome; one BIG resistor!!!
supposedly an oxy-hydrogen flame will block nuclear radiation
Ah... A Bernz-O-Matic torch works well, and for a professional finish a hydrogen/oxygen torch is preferred. The hydrox flame is wet and doesn't allow oxidation.
lerman_ is now known as lerman
got a weird call from some indian "domain name registry"
I said that is taken care of by my web hosting service
he got all upset
I hung up
how have you been?
how is the finger burner coming?
just got back from chicago. The business mettings went very well.
good to hear.
yeah I am happy
ton of money involved
it was damn cold up there though.
:) its cold and overcast here again.
[19:03:22] <Jymmm> http://www.the39dollarexperiment.com/
stallman changed date
tomorrow instead of 27
waiting anna ..
taked a train in naples
oh .. les_w> visitor...bbiaw
WHERE?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That bastard owes me money!
[19:12:16] <giacus_> http://catania.linux.it/
I have to beieve ?
or not ?
25 or 27 ???
I have to wake up at 4:00 am
300 km highroad too
if it false..
I scanned in some of our cincinnati milicron manual on threading http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/cincinnatimi/
sorry about the size
just to give you some more reference
will you make a link from the threading wiki page?
it has g33,34 and 35
aha, the first page has g33
when I get a chance I will try to resize them,
the maximum lead available is 13.1071 inches/rev
that's a very odd number
old machine. - from the 70's
looks like they have a 45 degree pullout built into g33
$ units "2^17"
but no provision for a lead in cut?
maybe they did everything in 1|1000 inches, with 17-bit(!) numbers?
sign bit makes 18
Some PDPs were 18 bits right?
* jepler cuts his tangent short
this is an ic controller - lots of 7400 series - did not see anything custom
I'm just going over this gear I picked up
buch a scopes and a frequency analyzer
The analyzer is designed for things like machine vibration modal analysis
les_w let me know when you get to the spectrum analyzer
well, i used it when I was there.
les_w oh man, thought you got me a 99% discounted one for my bday
I mostly had it in instrumented cars or to map out machine motions
giacus_ is now known as giacus_afk
about $20k piece of gear
but a little old
last time I used it was 6 years ago there
les_w the one I'm talking is $85K + tax, licenseing,
I used it to solve a steering wheel vibration in the taurus/sable ford platform
les_w you should work for a adult toy company... and do just the opposite
oh, When I was there they asked me if I wanted anything from the boneyard...the building they keep unused machine tools at
I didn't even go.....I would have gone nuts and started shipping old BP or grinders or screw machines down here
But I don't get to do that anymore...no time.
lerman_ is now known as lerman
les_w: 2" 10# foam 48x96 sheet $280
got a good hosting!! http://www.giacus.org/
next step is the conquist of sicily island :P
night guys, stay tuned !
Jymmm is now known as Jymmmmmm
Jymmmmmm is now known as Jymmm
a 'tool setter' is for adjusting the tip of the tool to the top of the material (aka z-axis == 0) ?
good night gents..
SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away