#emc | Logs for 2006-03-24

[00:05:55] <fenn> avr's are much easier to program...
[00:06:57] <bill2or3> I just found a page about thier 'butterfly', have you used it?
[00:13:25] <bill2or3> seems cheap, for what you get.
[00:15:49] <fenn> i havent used it, but it seems like an ok deal
[00:16:00] <fenn> i'd rather buy the parts separately so i can use them for something real
[00:16:34] <fenn> got enough toys laying around
[00:17:27] <fenn> wait, no i dont
[00:17:32] <fenn> * fenn slaps fenn
[00:18:57] <bill2or3> heh
[00:19:17] <bill2or3> $20 just to get something I can start with in on box seems pretty good.
[00:19:22] <bill2or3> 'one'
[00:38:31] <fenn> howdy folks
[00:39:38] <jmkasunich> hi fenn
[00:51:09] <Jymmm> les_w somebody let you out of your cage?
[00:53:01] <giacus> hola les_w
[01:00:17] <giacus> night
[02:37:02] <sed_> whats a good AC servo controlle for EMC?
[02:42:23] <fenn> are you handy with electronics?
[02:42:51] <fenn> if not, there's rutex
[02:43:38] <fenn> else http://www.lyle.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ServoController
[02:47:05] <sed_> cool thanks.. I know people who are..
[02:47:37] <SWPadnos> is that icee's unit?
[02:47:57] <fenn> yes
[02:48:23] <fenn> http://forums.donniebarnes.com/viewtopic.php?t=52 <- more here
[02:49:15] <fenn> "another integrated powerstage alternative, Fairchild FSBB15CH60, chepaer than the iramx at only 14usd and should do the same thing..."
[02:49:32] <fenn> according to etla
[02:53:23] <sed_> who what all do you need for the Fairchild FSBB15CH60?
[03:03:10] <fenn> power supply, bus capacitors, maybe opto-isolation, terminal lugs, big fat PC board
[03:03:18] <fenn> probably other stuff
[03:03:24] <fenn> read the datasheet!
[03:07:11] <fenn> would i be totally insane to try to build my own VFD?
[03:07:56] <Jymmm> what makes you think you're not already?
[03:09:37] <fenn> just wondering if there's really that much difference between building a 2.4kw brushless servo system and a 3kw vfd
[03:10:45] <jmkasunich> fenn: not much, but neither is trivial
[03:10:57] <jmkasunich> the difference is in the control algorithms
[03:12:08] <fenn> like vector vs sine table lookup?
[03:12:21] <jmkasunich> more than that
[03:12:54] <fenn> would be nice to have spare parts that work for everything
[03:13:36] <fenn> hmm scratch that last comment
[03:13:42] <fenn> past my bedtime
[06:06:11] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[08:51:18] <sed_> I wish I could find the site that had the 3phase servo motor built into a PCI card
[08:51:32] <sed_> motor controler that is
[13:33:19] <giacus> hello
[13:34:48] <giacus> Reggio Calabria 14�C
[13:35:29] <giacus> air of spring here around :P
[13:35:56] <giacus> spring air :D
[13:36:08] <rayh> Nice. Snow here again.
[13:36:22] <giacus> again ? oh ..
[13:36:30] <giacus> will end soon ;)
[13:37:03] <rayh> It's usually gone by mid April.
[13:37:49] <giacus> I eard on tv about 1 meter snow in some place there ..
[13:37:59] <giacus> but its the last snow :)
[13:38:18] <rayh> We always hope so.
[13:38:29] <rayh> brb
[13:38:39] <giacus> later
[13:39:08] <rayh> k
[13:40:07] <giacus> giacus is now known as giacus_afk
[13:57:58] <les_w> morning all
[14:11:24] <alex_joni> morning les
[14:11:28] <alex_joni> long time no see
[14:16:02] <les_w> hi alex
[14:16:14] <les_w> just got back from chicago business trip
[14:16:33] <les_w> things went very very well.
[14:17:30] <les_w> i'm tired though...no more work this week
[14:18:03] <alex_joni> nice for you
[14:18:11] <les_w> yes!
[14:18:16] <alex_joni> not much more work for me either
[14:18:19] <les_w> it was bitter cold up there
[14:18:21] <alex_joni> it's almost 5pm friday ;)
[14:18:30] <les_w> big snowstorm
[14:18:45] <les_w> I want to wash the salt off of the car today
[14:19:10] <alex_joni> are you ready for emc2? :D
[14:19:43] <les_w> well, some of the business contracts might involve emc2 for factory automation
[14:19:56] <les_w> the HAL might make that attractive
[14:20:19] <alex_joni> nice.. the TP is very stable (until proven contrary) ;)
[14:20:29] <alex_joni> and G64 Pxxx is a nice feature you'll enjoy
[14:20:31] <les_w> great!
[14:20:38] <alex_joni> not sure if you know about that
[14:20:48] <les_w> what is the Pxxx?
[14:20:58] <alex_joni> you can specify the max deviation on blending
[14:21:04] <alex_joni> say G64 P0.1
[14:21:15] <alex_joni> and it'll deviate only 0.1 inches from the checkpoint
[14:21:28] <alex_joni> of course adjusting speed to be able to do that
[14:21:29] <les_w> ah a chordal error control
[14:21:31] <les_w> neat
[14:21:56] <alex_joni> and there's stuff for threading in there ;)
[14:22:05] <les_w> cool.
[14:22:06] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?TrajectoryControl
[14:22:38] <les_w> I may need a very high speed trim to frequency thing for fourth oeder ceramic resonators
[14:22:47] <les_w> looking
[14:24:24] <alex_joni> as you were one of the people who had problems with the old TP, your testing would be very appreciated
[14:25:06] <les_w> looking forward to it
[14:25:24] <les_w> what is the best way to get emc2 on a box?
[14:25:52] <alex_joni> follow this: http://timeguy.com/cradek/emc/ubuntu
[14:25:58] <les_w> k
[14:26:01] <les_w> looking
[14:26:02] <alex_joni> half an hour or so installing
[14:27:38] <les_w> looks pretty easy
[14:27:47] <les_w> will need another box though
[14:27:54] <les_w> i'll order something
[14:27:56] <alex_joni> it is very easy.. another HDD might be enough
[14:28:12] <alex_joni> les_w: if you're worried about downloading ubuntu, you can request free cd's
[14:28:27] <CIA-10> 03jepler * 10emc2/src/depend.sh.in: rework script, fix TEST vs DEST typo which led to an error removing the directory .tmp on farm machines
[14:28:38] <les_w> well, I need to go to a faster box and motenc
[14:28:56] <alex_joni> les_w: stg has a PCI version planned ;) (but that's inside information:P)
[14:29:14] <les_w> I will be snowed with work for a little bit here
[14:29:22] <alex_joni> it should be due sometimes this summer
[14:29:28] <les_w> combination of contracts and tax
[14:29:32] <rayh> stg has had a pci version planned since the late 90's
[14:29:39] <les_w> It's time for me to incorporate
[14:29:47] <les_w> hi ray
[14:29:55] <les_w> it sure was cold up your way
[14:29:58] <rayh> I thought they lost that vision when they moved to the midwest.
[14:30:11] <alex_joni> rayh: I just got word from them the other day
[14:30:11] <rayh> Warm here, cold in the windy city.
[14:30:20] <les_w> hmm
[14:30:34] <rayh> Ah. Okay. Well that's good to hear. Any word on price?
[14:30:37] <les_w> gotta get the salt off the new car!
[14:30:51] <alex_joni> rayh: not yet, they asked though what's needed to be supported by EMC2 ;)
[14:31:26] <rayh> Did they offer you a card for writing the driver?
[14:31:30] <les_w> well my reason for motenc is the demonstrated 8k servo update
[14:31:41] <les_w> as opposed to 2k or so for the stg
[14:31:51] <rayh> m5i20 could also run that rate of update.
[14:31:51] <alex_joni> rayh: not yet.. but we'll see, there's time
[14:32:02] <alex_joni> they said sometimes later this year.. so who knows ;)
[14:32:13] <rayh> Will be interesting to see.
[14:32:45] <rayh> I see that usdigital has a 3 axis encoder read card but it's to much money for this crowd.
[14:33:18] <les_w> The last textile mill here in the county has announced it will close so I will grab their machine shop stuff I hope
[14:33:34] <les_w> of pop 11,000 or so
[14:33:40] <les_w> 920 jobs lost
[14:33:46] <rayh> Sounds like a good opportunity.
[14:33:51] <les_w> yeah
[14:33:56] <rayh> Sad for the US economy.
[14:34:35] <les_w> oh well...I need to hire people. I'll have a better labor pool
[14:35:09] <les_w> I have to talkwith the county gov people
[14:35:18] <les_w> I need some incentives
[14:35:25] <les_w> or I will go elsewhere
[14:36:12] <rayh> I could get you a 3 story building, about 50k of floor in Crytal Falls for a buck.
[14:36:16] <les_w> like south carolina
[14:36:24] <les_w> ha
[14:37:03] <rayh> Nice lobby. Full commercial kitchen with bakery.
[14:37:19] <les_w> My blood has thinned out. It's too cold up there for me!!!
[14:37:29] <rayh> 3 phase 240
[14:37:35] <les_w> I froze my a$$ off
[14:37:46] <les_w> that wind
[14:38:20] <rayh> Cant' say I didn't try.
[14:38:23] <les_w> ITW asked me to return.
[14:38:28] <les_w> I said no.
[14:38:45] <les_w> Then they asked me to work as an employee from here.
[14:38:55] <les_w> I said no again.
[14:39:11] <les_w> Then they asked about a long term contract
[14:39:16] <les_w> I said yes
[14:39:39] <alex_joni> later everyone
[14:39:44] <les_w> later alex
[14:40:16] <rayh> What speed is the processor in the control that you have there now.
[14:41:21] <les_w> it's an old k6 200
[14:41:35] <les_w> it just can't do axis etc I expect
[14:42:09] <jepler> axis does ok-not-great on PII-300
[14:42:18] <rayh> I believe I'd slap a second hd in their and install ubuntu.
[14:42:19] <les_w> and if I am going to change it out I will certainly want to get something other than the stg
[14:42:50] <rayh> I'm thinking a software only comparison with what you have now.
[14:43:09] <les_w> the stg would be good enough for a vertical mill though
[14:43:24] <rayh> Skip axis. Use what you've got.
[14:43:42] <rayh> That way you'll know if there is an improvement.
[14:44:04] <les_w> poping in a hd would be the way then
[14:44:17] <cradek> when you install ubuntu, you can try all the guis, everything is there.
[14:44:26] <les_w> hi chris
[14:44:30] <cradek> hi
[14:44:37] <rayh> Yep. When you install ubuntu you can set it up on the second drive only.
[14:44:56] <les_w> back from chicago and I am tired but very happy.
[14:45:04] <cradek> I'd actually unplug the existing drive for safe keeping.
[14:45:16] <rayh> Any gui will be slow to refresh but that should not affect the motion performance.
[14:45:16] <les_w> yeah
[14:45:24] <rayh> Alex has the stg driver in place.
[14:45:46] <rayh> With the same pinouts so the change is all software.
[14:45:47] <cradek> do you have some old 4 gig disk around?
[14:45:53] <les_w> This is a little stretch but I called my mom in florida.....
[14:46:15] <les_w> I said...Hi mom. Guess what? I'm rich.
[14:46:17] <les_w> hahaha
[14:46:22] <cradek> haha
[14:46:30] <les_w> so I can buy boxes and cards.
[14:47:46] <Bo-Dick> a critical question... will the performance be better if a separate current regulator is used for each h-bridge in a stepper driver?
[14:49:25] <Bo-Dick> well i really need to know
[14:49:44] <jepler> the short answer is probably "no"
[14:50:06] <Bo-Dick> i hope deep in my heart that you're right
[14:50:31] <jepler> hm, wait. current regulator?
[14:50:47] <jepler> In the systems I'm familiar with there's a regulated voltage, not a regulated current
[14:51:08] <jepler> that is, the power supply is a voltage supply
[14:51:15] <Bo-Dick> well for stepper drivers there are regulated currents instead of voltages
[14:51:43] <jepler> the h-bridge is driven by a chopper circuit that regulates the current through each motor winding
[14:51:47] <les_w> bbl...I have to unload a trunk full of tek digital scopes I got from one division that did not need them
[14:52:16] <jepler> les_w: sounds like the perfect door-prize for fest.
[14:52:19] <Bo-Dick> so the current must be limited separately for each winding?
[14:52:56] <Bo-Dick> les_w: where are you located?
[14:53:22] <jepler> Bo-Dick: In all the drivers I know (xylotex, l297+l298, gecko) the supply is a voltage supply and the driver has as its job delivering constant current to each winding
[14:54:05] <Bo-Dick> do you think one could "cheat" and only regulate the whole motor in one current regulator and get the same performance?
[14:54:26] <jepler> Bo-Dick: A set-up where there's a single current regulator, and its output is passed through a varying number of stepper windings, will have varying performance depending how many windings are activated
[14:54:54] <cradek> les_w: I'll trade you a nice ubuntu CD for one of them
[14:56:27] <Bo-Dick> so i can be pretty sure i'll not get the same performance when current limit all windings at once?
[14:57:04] <jepler> Bo-Dick: power = (current)^2 * resistance. If you activate two windings you have half the current through each of two windings, which I believe gives half the power
[14:57:46] <jepler> since torque is roughly proportional to power, that means the two-windings-on stages of half stepping will have half the torque of the one-winding-on stage
[14:58:04] <Bo-Dick> i'm not sure one can determine that from that viewpoint
[14:59:03] <Bo-Dick> but you _might_ be right
[15:00:04] <Bo-Dick> i also know that the commersial stepper drivers and parts use a separate for each winding but is that for practical reasons or does it affect performance? that's the intresting question.
[15:01:02] <Bo-Dick> i can admit i've overlooked this until now :(
[15:01:45] <Bo-Dick> * Bo-Dick needs a stepper guru right now
[15:02:03] <giacus_afk> giacus_afk is now known as stepperguru
[15:02:07] <stepperguru> :)
[15:02:15] <stepperguru> hi
[15:03:16] <jepler> People do believe it affects performance. In fact, the one-current-regulator-per-winding approach is still not ideal. See page 13 in http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/1679.pdf
[15:04:06] <jepler> Bo-Dick: ^^ the circuit in that pdf gives higher per-winding current when 1 winding is active than when 2 are active, so that the torque in the one-winding-on step is not lower.
[15:05:10] <stepperguru> Bo-Dick: shot
[15:05:53] <Bo-Dick> * Bo-Dick is strugglingto understand
[15:06:13] <stepperguru> before you ask for steppers, you should ask to yourself why peoples change the printer (using steppers) every 4 months
[15:06:31] <stepperguru> why stepper has no control
[15:06:41] <stepperguru> you just give a command and hope it go well
[15:06:48] <stepperguru> no control on it
[15:06:55] <stepperguru> no feedback
[15:06:58] <stepperguru> no encoders
[15:07:01] <stepperguru> just hope
[15:07:11] <Bo-Dick> i know that
[15:07:34] <stepperguru> if you manually move an head printer you lost position forever
[15:07:39] <stepperguru> (epson) and others
[15:07:44] <stepperguru> so say goodbay
[15:07:49] <stepperguru> thats the stepper
[15:07:51] <stepperguru> an hope
[15:07:59] <stepperguru> :D
[15:08:27] <Bo-Dick> well i'm gonna use them in a CNC
[15:08:33] <stepperguru> Im too
[15:08:41] <stepperguru> I used that
[15:08:51] <stepperguru> be ready to lost step
[15:08:54] <Bo-Dick> they can always be calibrated and reset to the origin
[15:09:01] <stepperguru> and find the appropriate feedrate
[15:09:25] <stepperguru> to get best performance
[15:09:59] <stepperguru> Bo-Dick: false ..
[15:10:13] <stepperguru> stepper is very limited
[15:11:10] <stepperguru> encoders and feeback are the fineal solution
[15:11:14] <stepperguru> final*
[15:11:23] <stepperguru> stepper is a toy
[15:12:31] <stepperguru> if you are looking for toys: http://giacus.altervista.org/photo/hobby/cnc/index.html
[15:12:43] <stepperguru> stepperguru is now known as giacus
[15:12:48] <jepler> steppers are just fine
[15:12:55] <cradek> I'm glad that's over
[15:13:13] <jepler> they are inexpensive, which is important for a hobbyist
[15:13:23] <ottos> good day gents..
[15:13:30] <jepler> and when configured right (not too aggressively on accel and max velocity) they are extremely dependable
[15:13:36] <giacus> hello ottos :)
[15:13:43] <giacus> got emc1 homimg ?
[15:14:06] <jepler> servos aren't perfect either. With steppers, get a missed step and ruin your work. With servos, get a following error and ruin your work. Half dozen of one, six of the other.
[15:14:08] <ottos> nope.. switched to Emc2...
[15:14:25] <giacus> ottos: nice :)
[15:14:36] <ottos> that brings me to a quiestion on hal configs..
[15:14:37] <giacus> jepler: I hate steppers :/
[15:14:41] <giacus> I tried ..
[15:15:16] <giacus> for seconday jobs maybe are ok
[15:15:20] <cradek> ottos: you're in the right place then
[15:15:38] <ottos> do you guys know here to change the bits on lim/home sw? in the hal config...
[15:15:56] <cradek> what kind of interface do you have?
[15:16:17] <ottos> ?
[15:16:37] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[15:16:41] <cradek> steppers or servos? hooked to the parallel port or an interface card?
[15:16:50] <ottos> servos.. motenc card..
[15:17:17] <cradek> have you made a custom configuration in your home directory yet?
[15:17:34] <giacus> there's a doc abou homing on emc2 I guess
[15:17:36] <ottos> nope, used the default one in motenc..
[15:17:58] <cradek> ok to make modifications, let's first copy the sample config to your home directory
[15:18:09] <cradek> at a command prompt, issue these two commands
[15:18:10] <ottos> ok..
[15:18:14] <cradek> mkdir -p ~/emc2/configs
[15:18:26] <cradek> cp -R /etc/emc2/sample-configs/motenc ~/emc2/configs
[15:18:38] <ottos> one sec..
[15:19:05] <ottos> have to run back and forth to the machine..
[15:19:13] <cradek> you are using ubuntu right?
[15:19:18] <ottos> super..
[15:19:21] <ottos> love it..
[15:19:26] <cradek> great
[15:19:28] <giacus> mmmh
[15:19:58] <giacus> why use the son when you know the father ?
[15:20:12] <cradek> giacus: please stop helping
[15:20:17] <giacus> hehe ok
[15:21:02] <giacus> * giacus preparing to go at stallman conference in 27
[15:21:05] <giacus> :D
[15:22:04] <ottos> ok done.. in home dir..
[15:23:17] <ottos> cradek.. what is my next move..?
[15:23:51] <jepler> ottos: cradek got called away. I'm not sure when he'll be back
[15:24:01] <jepler> ottos: but hopefully in a few minutes
[15:25:07] <ottos> ok..
[15:25:09] <SWPadnos> ottos, do you have all the info on where the limit switches are connected?
[15:25:37] <ottos> y all was working on emc1, is come up but I have to change the polarity of all switches..
[15:25:57] <ottos> emc2 comes up but stayes in e-stop..
[15:26:29] <SWPadnos> ok. you'll probably need to edit the moteni_io.hal file in the directory you just created
[15:26:44] <SWPadnos> oops - motenc_io.hal
[15:27:10] <ottos> pico is fine.. what bits? or is the greates smaller sign it?
[15:27:31] <SWPadnos> pico or nano will be fine
[15:27:39] <ottos> ok let me try..
[15:27:43] <SWPadnos> one sec
[15:28:03] <SWPadnos> were you asking about the "=>" and "<=" in the files?
[15:29:08] <jepler> linksp Xhome <= motenc.0.in-02
[15:29:08] <jepler> linksp Xhome => axis.0.home-sw-in
[15:29:26] <jepler> In this pair of lines, the input pin is linked to the home switch
[15:29:30] <jepler> changing the first line to read
[15:29:34] <jepler> linksp Xhome <= motenc.0.in-02-not
[15:29:44] <jepler> will make emc2 use the inverted value
[15:30:33] <jepler> <= and => are a convenience to the person writing the file, as a reminder of which way the information moves (Xhome comes from motenc.0.in-02-not and goes to axis.0.home-sw-in)
[15:30:58] <ottos> yes.. I see what you mean..
[15:31:51] <Bo-Dick> i still haven't understood if there are any difference between current regulating each winding separately and current regulating all windings at once.
[15:32:09] <SWPadnos> Bo-Dick, you must limit current individually for each winding
[15:32:37] <Bo-Dick> are u sure about this?
[15:32:42] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:32:56] <SWPadnos> unless you want to severely decrease performance of the motors
[15:33:22] <SWPadnos> the only other way of insuring that you won't fry a coil is to make the overall limit the same as the limit for one coil
[15:33:29] <ottos> let me try.. you will be around for a while?
[15:33:32] <SWPadnos> which will truly suck if you're driving two coils
[15:34:37] <Bo-Dick> you're absolutely right
[15:34:59] <jepler> that's what I was trying to explain earlier, but I guess I failed.
[15:35:44] <Bo-Dick> well SWPadnos managed to explain it so clearly
[15:36:01] <SWPadnos> sorry ;)
[15:36:03] <Bo-Dick> i've got some serious resoldering to do now :S
[15:43:27] <Bo-Dick> guys, is it true that full-step sucks?
[15:43:50] <Bo-Dick> i read something about "signal shaping"
[15:43:57] <Bo-Dick> ...for half step
[15:44:22] <Bo-Dick> without signal shaping one would loose 40% torgue when half steppin'
[15:44:42] <Bo-Dick> _with_ signal shaping one would only loss 5%
[15:45:05] <SWPadnos> you can do half-step with full torque if you run half current (actually, sqrt(2)-1, I think) through the "other" coil
[15:45:44] <Bo-Dick> can signal shaping be done with pwm?
[15:46:02] <SWPadnos> yes, that's how chopper drives work
[15:46:24] <jepler> Bo-Dick: that's what was illustrated on page 13 of that pdf I mentioned earlier, http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/1679.pdf
[15:46:31] <SWPadnos> stangely enough, the gecko can accept up to 250k steps/second, but the current limiting chopper runs at 20 KHz
[15:46:46] <SWPadnos> I don't get how that works
[15:47:16] <cradek> when the motor is moving, there's little or no chopping necessary
[15:47:31] <Bo-Dick> i have a vague idea how that could work
[15:47:53] <SWPadnos> I suppose that's true - once you get to 10K or 20K steps/sec, you won't be current limited (though ideally you still would be)
[15:48:36] <Bo-Dick> how can the coils accept those high frequencies?
[15:49:00] <SWPadnos> that's why they recommend 5x to 25x the stepper rated voltage
[15:49:07] <SWPadnos> so the current can build up faster
[15:49:29] <cradek> Bo-Dick: the chop period is much less than the time constant for the motor inductor, which is why chopping works
[15:51:36] <Bo-Dick> how can signal shaping and current limiting be done by the same chopper?
[15:56:05] <SWPadnos> just shape the current "signal" - that's what affects torque anyway
[15:59:30] <giacus> giacus is now known as giacus_afk
[16:01:12] <ottos> do you guys know if the default pinout has been changed on the motenc-100..?
[16:13:33] <SWPadnos> ottos, it's possible that it's changed from emc1
[16:14:03] <SWPadnos> but it would be good to know for sure, I think the idea is to minimize rewiring ;)
[16:14:20] <SWPadnos> (for people upgrading)
[16:14:32] <cradek> I'm pretty sure everyone's goal is to have the default match emc1 as much as possible
[16:34:22] <ottos> go it working.. seems great.. have to retune the PID...
[16:35:36] <ottos> for which ever reason output pins for amp enable ware rerouted to spindle etc, and amp pins weare rerouted to secondary bank...
[16:38:40] <Jymmm> * Jymmm thoought everyone's goal was to get les_w laid without him saying "I do".
[17:04:45] <ottos> is TkEmc.nml for font changes the same or has is been changed? if so does anyone know where?
[17:04:59] <sed_> what would be the best way to control a Baldor AC servo motor?
[17:05:28] <SWPadnos> ottos, I hope you mean Tkemc.tcl ??
[17:05:37] <ottos> yes..
[17:05:43] <SWPadnos> you can put a font choice in the ini file if you want.
[17:05:52] <ottos> ?
[17:06:25] <SWPadnos> in the DISPLAY section, add an item called POSITION_FONT
[17:06:31] <SWPadnos> with 3 values:
[17:06:46] <SWPadnos> typeface pitch style
[17:07:01] <SWPadnos> POSITION_FONT = courier 48 bold
[17:07:06] <SWPadnos> for example
[17:07:10] <alex_joni> sed_: probably a matching servo drive (frequency controlled), with analog interface and something like a Motenc to drive it
[17:07:38] <ottos> ok let me try..
[17:08:36] <sed_> thanks alex_joni
[17:09:11] <ottos> sed.. Yaskawa makes some nice servos.. and you can find them cheap on ebay.. 100$ pair for a 200W..
[17:20:08] <ottos> nice.. work great.. is there a way to shrink the whole thing... I only have a 640x480 lcd so 24 seems huge...
[17:20:38] <alex_joni> just put 10-12 there
[17:20:49] <alex_joni> there is a menu setting where you can set the font
[17:20:50] <ottos> ok...
[17:21:02] <ottos> I know still too big...
[17:21:03] <alex_joni> so you can test a bit till you find the right value, then write it to the ini
[17:21:04] <SWPadnos> as far as I know, the only font size you can change is the position readout
[17:21:09] <sed_> ottos I was looking at some Baldor servo's at a good price
[17:21:18] <SWPadnos> the rest of the display can't be made all that small
[17:21:23] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: all fonts can be changed, but not from the ini
[17:21:25] <sed_> hard to find info about the Servo Drives
[17:21:28] <SWPadnos> you can try mini though, that scales pretty well
[17:21:32] <SWPadnos> alex_joni, true
[17:22:13] <alex_joni> there is a file called TkEmc which gets installed somewhere(looking now where)
[17:22:23] <ottos> sed...true.. I've had my share of headaches with matched amp/motors.. and motenc/ emc..
[17:22:30] <alex_joni> that file holds some preferences for TkEmc.tcl
[17:22:46] <SWPadnos> tcl/TkEmc
[17:22:54] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: talking about .debs
[17:23:02] <SWPadnos> oh
[17:23:03] <alex_joni> but yes, that's the file
[17:23:32] <alex_joni> there were 2 of them in emc1 (TkEmc.big & .small) or something similar
[17:24:59] <alex_joni> it's /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/TkEmc
[17:25:09] <alex_joni> or maybe /etc/X11/app-defaults/TkEmc
[17:25:17] <alex_joni> one of those two places
[17:25:43] <alex_joni> ottos: if you find the file in either location, you need to use 'sudo pico foo/TkEmc' to edit it
[17:26:00] <alex_joni> ! Default font is "variable", aka 12-point Helvetica bold.
[17:26:00] <alex_joni> ! For 640x480 displays, use 10 point font.
[17:26:00] <alex_joni> ! See /usr/X11/lib/X11/fonts/misc/fonts.alias for others.
[17:26:00] <alex_joni> *top*font: -*-helvetica-bold-r-normal-*-12-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
[17:26:15] <alex_joni> ottos: just change the *top*font: line to read 10 instead of 12
[17:26:30] <ottos> ok..
[17:26:41] <SWPadnos> TkEmc, TkEmcS and TkEmc are in /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults on my BDI machine
[17:26:46] <jepler> If you do that, be aware that the next time you upgrade the "emc2" package you'll lose the changes.
[17:26:52] <SWPadnos> oops - that last was TkEmcL
[17:27:22] <ottos> we are talking emc2 right..?
[17:27:22] <cradek> I'm booting to check, but I think the files are in /etc/X11/app-defaults
[17:27:42] <jepler> /etc/X11/app-defaults/TkEmc
[17:27:43] <jepler> yes
[17:27:44] <cradek> if so, the update will ask you whether you want to keep your changes or not
[17:27:56] <jepler> cradek: oh, ok
[17:28:01] <cradek> it will warn you that you changed a configuration file, and allow you to keep your changes or install the new one
[17:28:02] <SWPadnos> both, one is a symlink to the other ;)
[17:28:03] <alex_joni> ottos: yes
[17:28:12] <jepler> cradek: it does that with the GUI updater too?
[17:28:15] <alex_joni> ottos: to summarize ;)
[17:28:17] <cradek> jepler: yes
[17:28:31] <alex_joni> 1. 'sudo pico /etc/X11/app-defaults/TkEmc'
[17:28:39] <ottos> cheers ...:D
[17:28:48] <alex_joni> 2. change the 12 with 10 on the *top*font: line
[17:29:01] <jepler> It's better to use 'sudo -e filename' than 'sudo $EDITOR filename'.
[17:29:32] <alex_joni> 3. when you upgrade emc2 in the future it will tell you that you modified your local version of /etc/X11/app-defaults/TkEmc, and you'll need to tell it that you want to keep the modified version
[17:29:33] <jepler> especially with editors that write configuration files to your home directory .. I don't know if pico does or not.
[17:29:52] <alex_joni> jepler: I usually use mcedit with sudo, no sweat
[17:30:50] <alex_joni> but thanks for the advice. sudo -e opens a default editor?
[17:31:15] <jepler> alex_joni: yes.
[17:31:18] <jepler> It uses $EDITOR, if set
[17:31:29] <alex_joni> for the user or for root?
[17:31:40] <jepler> whatever is in the invoking environment
[17:31:45] <SWPadnos> does it default to vi if $EDITOR isn't set?
[17:32:00] <jepler> 2. The editor specified by the VISUAL or EDITOR environment
[17:32:00] <jepler> variables is run to edit the temporary files. If neither
[17:32:00] <jepler> VISUAL nor EDITOR are set, the program listed in the editor
[17:32:00] <jepler> sudoers variable is used.
[17:32:08] <jepler> I don't know. maybe the manual page says;
[17:32:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:32:14] <Jymmm> Has anyone used a oxygen-hydrogen torch?
[17:32:23] <alex_joni> Jymmm: I have
[17:32:25] <SWPadnos> that would be a good reason to make sure I sset EDITOR
[17:32:41] <alex_joni> Jymmm: wanna cut metal? or weld?
[17:32:50] <alex_joni> actually oxygen-acetylen is what I used
[17:33:07] <Jymmm> alex_joni: whats the main diff?
[17:33:10] <cradek> I've used oxy-acetylene too
[17:33:17] <cradek> lots of times
[17:33:34] <alex_joni> Jymmm: between welding & cutting? or between acetylen & hydrogen ?
[17:33:42] <Jymmm> between acetylen & hydrogen
[17:33:52] <alex_joni> hydrogen is a bit more explosive
[17:33:56] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:34:00] <Jymmm> cool
[17:34:04] <alex_joni> although acetylen can blow up too if you're not carefull
[17:34:08] <alex_joni> e.g. drop the bottle
[17:34:38] <sed_> is hydrogen hotter burning?
[17:34:52] <Jymmm> welding & cutting would be secondary... primary for flame polishing acrylic
[17:35:00] <alex_joni> yes, I think so, but a bit more unstable afaik
[17:35:13] <Jymmm> I came across this --> http://www.littletorch.com/caddy.html
[17:35:31] <cradek> acetylene isn't very clean, it smokes
[17:35:39] <sed_> acetylen needs to be stablized with acitone for it to be safe under more than 30psi
[17:35:47] <cradek> which is why jewelers use oxy-propane
[17:35:54] <sed_> (making that pressure up but its somthing low)
[17:35:58] <Jymmm> cradek Ah, that would make sense for using hydrogen instead.
[17:36:13] <cradek> that might be the reason, but I don't know about hydrogen
[17:36:30] <ottos> looking good.. thanx..
[17:36:31] <cradek> I know you can use oxy-natural gas or oxy-propane
[17:36:38] <Jymmm> Everywhere I looked ALL mentioned using oxy-hydro, never oxy-propane
[17:36:41] <alex_joni> ottos: great, another happy customer ;)
[17:37:18] <cradek> for melting plastic can't you use a plain hardware store propane torch?
[17:37:39] <cradek> it'll cost you $20 intead of $200
[17:37:50] <ottos> ya almost done.. still have to add my b/c axis to the hal config.. btw is some testing needs to be done on 5a-xis .. let me know..
[17:37:53] <Jymmm> cradek: I think it's basically the tips
[17:38:08] <alex_joni> ottos: let us know what problems still are there
[17:38:11] <cradek> Jymmm: I don't know what that means
[17:38:18] <alex_joni> from what we know it should work ok
[17:38:22] <Jymmm> cradek: http://www.littletorch.com/tips.html
[17:38:26] <alex_joni> Jymmm: what do you want to do ?
[17:38:37] <ottos> I'll work on it this whole afternoon.. will let you know..
[17:38:47] <Jymmm> alex_joni: <Jymmm> welding & cutting would be secondary... primary for flame polishing acrylic
[17:38:59] <cradek> Jymmm: I have a mini torch like that
[17:39:05] <alex_joni> how about those small burners with lighter gas?
[17:39:12] <alex_joni> about 5-10$ ?
[17:39:51] <SWPadnos> bunsen burner
[17:40:13] <Jymmm> I'm gonna try those first; but trying to just get info on the oxy-hydro so I have a better understanding. Everything I've read ALWAYS mentions using oxy-hydro instead of propane/maap
[17:40:27] <cradek> looks like it's much hotter
[17:40:55] <Jymmm> I'm thinking it's to prevent the acrylic from cracking
[17:40:58] <cradek> but I can't imagine why you'd need that
[17:41:19] <cradek> jewelers easily solder gold with natural gas
[17:42:08] <alex_joni> Hydrogen is the gas of choice when casting or melting platinum because its 4850�F flame burns clean. It is, however, more expensive than the other gases, not as readily available, and requires careful handling and storage.
[17:42:24] <alex_joni> Propane and natural gas produce carbon-free flames, which, although lower temperature than acetylene's (5252�F for propane, 5120�F for natural gas), are good all-purpose systems for most goldsmiths. However, these gases are dependant on availability.
[17:42:41] <cradek> yeah platinum is a problem for natural gas, but I think you can solder it with oxy-propane
[17:43:08] <alex_joni> Jymmm: http://www.lapidaryjournal.com/feature/jul03str.cfm
[17:43:31] <cradek> hmm, real numbers
[17:43:38] <cradek> there's a big difference between them
[17:44:01] <ottos> gents I've noticed that spindle speed is routed to d I/O .. is +-10VDC to controll VFD an option?
[17:44:14] <alex_joni> ottos: sure it is
[17:44:16] <cradek> ottos: you can do anything you want with hal
[17:44:33] <alex_joni> the iocontroller in emc2 has lots of redundant outputs for spindle speed control
[17:44:39] <ottos> I guess hal will be my new religion...
[17:45:02] <alex_joni> there is a iocontrol.0.spindle-speed-out pin which you can connect to a DAC which will control your +/-10V VFD control
[17:45:34] <ottos> nice..
[17:45:36] <alex_joni> ottos: you said motend?
[17:45:39] <alex_joni> motenc even
[17:45:44] <ottos> ya..
[17:45:47] <SWPadnos> does the motenc have bipolar analog outputs, or does it use a direction bit?
[17:45:51] <alex_joni> ok, do you have a free DAC?
[17:46:00] <ottos> plenty of boath..
[17:46:11] <alex_joni> ok, then it's trivial..
[17:46:17] <alex_joni> 3 lines of HAL at the most
[17:46:24] <alex_joni> you can do it one line too ;)
[17:47:10] <ottos> I guess that will be the next step...
[17:47:11] <alex_joni> linkpp iocontrol.0.spindle-speed-out motenc.0.dac-02-value
[17:47:25] <alex_joni> change that 02 with the number of your free DAC
[17:47:35] <Jymmm> does propane/lpg contain contaminates?
[17:48:02] <alex_joni> ottos: and you probably need to adjust gain & offset for that DAC too
[17:48:06] <cradek> depends what you call a contaminant
[17:48:17] <cradek> I think it usually/always has the stuff that makes it smell
[17:48:22] <ottos> ok.. anothe prob solved..
[17:48:29] <alex_joni> look at motenc_motion.hal and check for other dac-xx-*
[17:48:37] <Jymmm> cradek anything that would visually make clear acrylic icky
[17:48:46] <alex_joni> ottos: you can duplicate that stuff in there, and adjust for spindle-speed
[17:48:56] <cradek> Jymmm: no, it burns clean if you adjust the oxy right
[17:49:42] <cradek> I cook on bulk propane and never get ash on the pots or anything like that, and that's not a nice precise torch
[17:51:05] <Jymmm> That's the only thing I can think of why they keep mentioning oxy-hydro; hell here's a specific torch for it http://www.nationaltorch.com/Acrylic.htm
[17:51:05] <alex_joni> cradek: from bottles?
[17:51:17] <Jymmm> alex_joni 200 lb bottle
[17:51:21] <cradek> alex_joni: an outdoor tank
[17:52:12] <Jymmm> * Jymmm replaces cradek propane with LPG, Lets see if he notices....
[17:52:31] <cradek> I think propane and LPG are the same thing?
[17:52:45] <fenn> not quite
[17:52:54] <fenn> lpg is a mixture
[17:52:57] <alex_joni> lpg=lyquified petroleum gas?
[17:53:08] <Jymmm> propane/lpg/natural
[17:53:15] <alex_joni> without the bad spelling ;)
[17:53:37] <Jymmm> alex_joni I see you're using the elmer fudd method =)
[17:53:39] <cradek> we don't know what it is, but it burns
[17:53:50] <Jymmm> lol
[17:53:59] <cradek> sounds like lunchmeat
[17:54:09] <cradek> we don't know what it is, but eat it in the middle of the day
[17:54:17] <Jymmm> I know you can't mix/match lpg/natural gas applicanes - something is different
[17:54:33] <cradek> aperture sizes are different (oxy mixture)
[17:55:36] <Jymmm> cnc bandsaw?!
[17:55:51] <SWPadnos> I hope to make one soon
[17:56:06] <Jymmm> http://www.modernplastics.com/april05/wdhemsaw.html
[17:56:09] <SWPadnos> well, after the milling machine
[17:57:47] <Jymmm> what the... http://www.sdplastics.com/h20flamepolishingtorch.html
[17:58:41] <SWPadnos> there's actually a water-burning electric fireplace you can get. it's very cool
[17:58:48] <SWPadnos> err - warm
[17:58:59] <Jymmm> SWPadnos no gases involved?
[17:59:21] <SWPadnos> it electrolyzes the water into oxygen and hydrogen, then burns them
[17:59:46] <Jymmm> cool, err warm.
[17:59:48] <SWPadnos> http://www.heatnglo.com/
[17:59:55] <Jymmm> sound EXACTLY like this thing
[18:00:06] <SWPadnos> that may be why I thought of it ;)
[18:01:34] <SWPadnos> the really interesting thing about that fireplace is that it doesn't need a chimney
[18:01:40] <SWPadnos> too bad it's $50k
[18:03:35] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: yeah, and too bad that it has terrible efficiency
[18:03:50] <SWPadnos> it's about the same as normal electric heat
[18:03:58] <SWPadnos> which is crap, but still
[18:03:58] <alex_joni> it's lots more efficient to get a big resistor put into the water to heat it
[18:08:12] <SWPadnos> all you have to do is get around 20 square meters of solar cells, and it'll be self-sustaining ;)
[18:13:03] <Jymmm> * Jymmm has 150K feet of NiChrome; one BIG resistor!!!
[18:17:47] <fenn> supposedly an oxy-hydrogen flame will block nuclear radiation
[18:22:30] <Jymmm> Ah... A Bernz-O-Matic torch works well, and for a professional finish a hydrogen/oxygen torch is preferred. The hydrox flame is wet and doesn't allow oxidation.
[18:35:22] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[18:49:16] <skunkworks> cradek: ?
[18:57:26] <les_w> got a weird call from some indian "domain name registry"
[18:58:00] <les_w> I said that is taken care of by my web hosting service
[18:58:06] <les_w> he got all upset
[18:58:10] <les_w> I hung up
[18:58:15] <skunkworks> Hey les.
[18:58:21] <les_w> hi sam
[18:58:23] <skunkworks> how have you been?
[18:58:39] <skunkworks> how is the finger burner coming?
[18:58:44] <les_w> just got back from chicago. The business mettings went very well.
[18:58:51] <les_w> meetings
[18:58:57] <skunkworks> good to hear.
[18:59:14] <les_w> yeah I am happy
[18:59:21] <les_w> ton of money involved
[18:59:50] <skunkworks> nice
[19:00:17] <les_w> it was damn cold up there though.
[19:00:38] <skunkworks> :) its cold and overcast here again.
[19:00:55] <les_w> visitor...bbiaw
[19:01:07] <giacus_> join #gnu
[19:03:22] <Jymmm> http://www.the39dollarexperiment.com/
[19:06:27] <giacus_> holaaa
[19:06:30] <giacus_> ciao :)
[19:06:43] <skunkworks> :)
[19:06:45] <giacus_> stallman changed date
[19:06:58] <giacus_> tomorrow instead of 27
[19:07:00] <giacus_> hi les_w
[19:07:02] <giacus_> :)
[19:07:11] <giacus_> waiting anna ..
[19:07:23] <giacus_> taked a train in naples
[19:07:59] <skunkworks> cradek: ?
[19:08:16] <giacus_> oh .. les_w> visitor...bbiaw
[19:08:19] <giacus_> :(
[19:10:19] <giacus_> Jymmm: !!!
[19:10:48] <Jymmm> WHERE?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That bastard owes me money!
[19:10:53] <giacus_> hahaha
[19:12:16] <giacus_> http://catania.linux.it/
[19:12:22] <giacus_> I have to beieve ?
[19:12:28] <giacus_> believe :(
[19:12:32] <giacus_> or not ?
[19:12:39] <giacus_> 25 or 27 ???
[19:13:10] <giacus_> :P
[19:14:28] <giacus_> damn it
[19:14:36] <giacus_> I have to wake up at 4:00 am
[19:14:57] <giacus_> 300 km highroad too
[19:15:01] <giacus_> if it false..
[19:15:04] <giacus_> grrrrrr
[19:18:35] <cradek> skunkworks: !
[19:26:01] <skunkworks> hey
[19:26:29] <skunkworks> I scanned in some of our cincinnati milicron manual on threading http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/cincinnatimi/
[19:26:35] <skunkworks> sorry about the size
[19:26:47] <skunkworks> just to give you some more reference
[19:26:53] <cradek> thank you
[19:27:05] <cradek> will you make a link from the threading wiki page?
[19:27:13] <skunkworks> sure
[19:27:29] <skunkworks> it has g33,34 and 35
[19:27:35] <cradek> aha, the first page has g33
[19:28:05] <skunkworks> when I get a chance I will try to resize them,
[19:28:18] <cradek> the maximum lead available is 13.1071 inches/rev
[19:28:22] <cradek> that's a very odd number
[19:29:00] <skunkworks> old machine. - from the 70's
[19:30:59] <cradek> looks like they have a 45 degree pullout built into g33
[19:31:03] <jepler> $ units "2^17"
[19:31:03] <jepler> Definition: 131072
[19:31:19] <cradek> but no provision for a lead in cut?
[19:31:21] <jepler> maybe they did everything in 1|1000 inches, with 17-bit(!) numbers?
[19:31:45] <cradek> huh, bizarre
[19:32:20] <jepler> sign bit makes 18
[19:32:39] <jepler> Some PDPs were 18 bits right?
[19:33:17] <jepler> * jepler cuts his tangent short
[19:33:30] <les_w> aiee
[19:34:06] <skunkworks> this is an ic controller - lots of 7400 series - did not see anything custom
[19:34:13] <les_w> I'm just going over this gear I picked up
[19:34:26] <les_w> buch a scopes and a frequency analyzer
[19:34:31] <les_w> bunch
[19:35:20] <les_w> The analyzer is designed for things like machine vibration modal analysis
[19:35:40] <Jymmm> les_w let me know when you get to the spectrum analyzer
[19:35:41] <cradek> you win!
[19:36:02] <les_w> well, i used it when I was there.
[19:36:32] <Jymmm> les_w oh man, thought you got me a 99% discounted one for my bday
[19:36:33] <les_w> I mostly had it in instrumented cars or to map out machine motions
[19:36:45] <giacus_> giacus_ is now known as giacus_afk
[19:36:53] <les_w> about $20k piece of gear
[19:37:02] <les_w> but a little old
[19:37:18] <les_w> last time I used it was 6 years ago there
[19:37:23] <Jymmm> les_w the one I'm talking is $85K + tax, licenseing,
[19:37:51] <les_w> I used it to solve a steering wheel vibration in the taurus/sable ford platform
[19:38:59] <Jymmm> les_w you should work for a adult toy company... and do just the opposite
[19:39:14] <les_w> oh, When I was there they asked me if I wanted anything from the boneyard...the building they keep unused machine tools at
[19:39:15] <les_w> heh
[19:40:15] <les_w> I didn't even go.....I would have gone nuts and started shipping old BP or grinders or screw machines down here
[19:40:40] <les_w> But I don't get to do that anymore...no time.
[19:40:42] <les_w> pity
[19:40:53] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[19:41:13] <les_w> hey ken
[20:09:20] <Jymmm> les_w: 2" 10# foam 48x96 sheet $280
[21:06:50] <giacus_afk> ciaoo
[21:13:42] <giacus> hellooo
[21:13:45] <giacus> wow :P
[21:14:30] <giacus> got a good hosting!! http://www.giacus.org/
[21:14:37] <giacus> hehe
[21:15:16] <giacus> next step is the conquist of sicily island :P
[21:17:18] <giacus> night guys, stay tuned !
[22:02:32] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Jymmmmmm
[22:03:13] <Jymmmmmm> Jymmmmmm is now known as Jymmm
[22:48:32] <sed_> exit
[22:48:36] <sed_> sorry
[22:48:41] <alex_joni> bye
[22:48:45] <alex_joni> ;-)
[22:53:01] <Jymmm> a 'tool setter' is for adjusting the tip of the tool to the top of the material (aka z-axis == 0) ?
[23:27:02] <ottos> good night gents..
[23:37:33] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[23:38:00] <Jymmm> SWP_Away!