#emc | Logs for 2006-01-22

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[00:03:52] <Jacky^> night
[00:10:52] <k4ts> night
[00:36:51] <Jymmm> * Jymmm wonders what those two are up to? lol
[00:39:35] <fenn> maybe they are taking pictures
[00:39:48] <Jymmm> I bet
[06:42:02] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as ImInNoMoodForBS
[08:43:50] <Imperator_> logger_aj: bookmark
[08:43:50] <Imperator_> See http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-01-22#T08-43-50
[11:52:04] <Jacky^> morning
[14:17:36] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/emc/ (iotask/ioControl.cc task/emccanon.cc): aditional checking for spindle clock/counterclockwise opperation. if speed is 0, we have no way of telling what direction is used.
[14:21:04] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/scripts/emc.run: removed emc.run, the new runscript seems to fill in nicely
[14:29:33] <jepler> good morning
[14:30:35] <alex_joni> hi jeff
[14:30:55] <alex_joni> needed your expertise hte other day, but I managed finally ;)
[14:31:04] <jepler> if the spindle's stopped why does the direction matter?
[14:31:48] <alex_joni> well.. M3 with S0 starts the spindle
[14:32:03] <alex_joni> because it sends spindle_on
[14:32:14] <alex_joni> well.. it did..
[14:32:25] <jepler> Maybe M3 S0 should be an error instead
[14:32:30] <alex_joni> right now, it causes an error
[14:32:34] <alex_joni> yup
[14:32:43] <alex_joni> that's my thinking too
[14:32:56] <jepler> though some without spindle speed control might use M3 S0
[14:32:57] <alex_joni> the direction is figured out based on the speed, which is signed
[14:33:07] <alex_joni> they should use S1
[14:33:26] <alex_joni> and maybe put that in startup G-codes if they are too lazy to code it properly
[15:52:13] <wb9mjn> Hey skunkwors...
[15:52:37] <skunkworks> hey - whats up?
[15:52:38] <wb9mjn> skunkworks...oops...
[15:52:50] <wb9mjn> Can we do a private conversation ?
[15:53:01] <skunkworks> sure
[15:53:06] <wb9mjn> Something to talk about not on topic here...
[15:53:17] <skunkworks> ok
[15:53:25] <alex_joni> yes, take it privately girls
[15:53:30] <alex_joni> :P
[15:53:33] <skunkworks> ;)
[15:53:44] <wb9mjn> Trying to figure out how to do that...
[15:54:05] <rayh> its /query nick
[15:54:12] <rayh> if both are registered
[15:54:23] <wb9mjn> I am registered...
[15:54:58] <skunkworks> I have talked to robin - I really don't think I am registered
[15:55:42] <wb9mjn> I have a window here between you and me skunk, not sure if you were queried though...
[15:56:02] <skunkworks> got it
[15:57:17] <rayh> 'dere you go, 'eh.
[15:58:11] <wb9mjn> Nothing coming through from Skunk on the private channel so far...
[15:59:08] <skunkworks> I am getting your conversation - j
[15:59:25] <skunkworks> hold on let me see if I can set this computer as dmz
[15:59:26] <wb9mjn> Try to query me...
[16:00:18] <skunkworks> If I try to chat with you all I get is Waiting for acknowledgement
[16:00:23] <skunkworks> give me a second
[16:01:15] <wb9mjn> Try joining a new public group #prius ...maybe that will work...
[16:01:57] <cradek> you are trying to use dcc chat, which often doesn't work because of firewalls
[16:02:00] <cradek> use /query
[16:02:20] <wb9mjn> Did that, he gets my text, but not visa versa...
[16:02:28] <alex_joni> how about using /msg
[16:02:32] <alex_joni> hi chris
[16:02:53] <cradek> hi
[16:06:51] <samco> think I am there
[16:07:04] <alex_joni> you are here, not there
[16:12:16] <robin_sz> meep?
[16:12:40] <robin_sz> where is that waster Les then?
[16:23:23] <wb9mjn> Yea Les much be out buying a car !
[16:23:53] <robin_sz> ooh
[16:24:10] <robin_sz> some huge V8 sled I guess
[16:24:23] <robin_sz> not that nasty plastic jap thing?
[16:24:32] <wb9mjn> Nope...that s what I am getting...
[16:25:03] <robin_sz> there are few V8s worth having ...
[16:25:24] <robin_sz> 427 fords ...
[16:25:30] <wb9mjn> Anyway...trying to work out my Z column...do not know if this is a good time to yack about that, or if the software developers would like the channel...
[16:25:31] <robin_sz> small-block chevys
[16:25:41] <robin_sz> developers?
[16:25:46] <robin_sz> on here?
[16:26:48] <wb9mjn> I read once (in Machine Design magazine possibly?) that a smart engineer figured out how to make a V 8 sound like a I-4 ...
[16:27:20] <robin_sz> mmm ... most people actually like th V8 sound ...
[16:27:28] <wb9mjn> With a new kind of exhaust system....and gained like 10 % fuel economy and torque....but they would not put it in production because there
[16:27:35] <wb9mjn> was no-more V-8 growl...!
[16:27:39] <robin_sz> heh
[16:27:39] <jmkasunich> wb9mnj: the developers are in the emc-devel channel, go ahead and talk about your Z
[16:28:02] <rayh> Pontiac released a 4/8 for a while.
[16:28:16] <wb9mjn> As some of you know my Z column motor can fry eggs...
[16:28:26] <robin_sz> mmm.. stepper?
[16:28:50] <wb9mjn> literally, after about an hour of holding the head at some positions....no, its a servo system...
[16:28:57] <robin_sz> right ...
[16:29:11] <robin_sz> servos hate that sort of work ... on position, no movement
[16:29:34] <wb9mjn> Motors available on E-bay are all too big , the same size or too small, or brushless, when I m using a brushed amplifier...
[16:29:44] <robin_sz> I presume you have a ballscrew ?
[16:30:04] <wb9mjn> Yea,,,the same system ran the 3D-chips and the motor was only about 90 F afterwords...
[16:30:11] <robin_sz> right
[16:30:12] <robin_sz> so ...
[16:30:14] <jmkasunich> would it be possible to counterbalance it?
[16:30:18] <wb9mjn> Yes..so there is back-drive....
[16:30:26] <robin_sz> * robin_sz agrres with jmkasunich
[16:30:55] <robin_sz> a simple counterbalance ... spring or weight, will do it.
[16:31:30] <robin_sz> or just tighten up the Z gibs so the friction holds it and add a little I term
[16:31:37] <wb9mjn> Welp...I ve planned all along to rework the drive to put bring that axis up to the 5K encoder on the screw, like the other two axis...right now its
[16:31:53] <wb9mjn> a 250 on the motor, on the other side of the belt drive from the screw...
[16:32:28] <robin_sz> so you are goint to change the gearing?
[16:32:31] <wb9mjn> 250 encoder...
[16:32:39] <robin_sz> or just the encoder
[16:33:25] <wb9mjn> So, I have the oportunity to change the gearing...as the new encoder will be driven by a new custome made screw pulley...
[16:33:37] <robin_sz> ok,
[16:33:54] <wb9mjn> Les recomended that...so I went off looking for motors too....
[16:34:08] <robin_sz> so ...
[16:34:19] <robin_sz> the simplest cure is a counterbalance
[16:34:38] <robin_sz> this is how its done on big iron
[16:34:39] <wb9mjn> The motor I m using is a 2 inch diameter by 5 inch ferite magnet servo motor...with carbon brushes...
[16:34:50] <wb9mjn> Its the brush end of the motor that gets nasty hot....
[16:35:30] <wb9mjn> Probably will do the counterbalance too....
[16:35:32] <robin_sz> if the ballscrew is free-running, and the Z heavy .. most motors will fry
[16:36:33] <wb9mjn> Yep...its free running within the zone that the motor controls it...It takes about 5 mils to bind ....and the motor/control loop never let it out of
[16:36:43] <wb9mjn> +/- .0005 ...
[16:37:30] <wb9mjn> Are there any different motors, brush types that may be good ? I came across Servo-Disk motors on Ebay....
[16:37:41] <rayh> Lots of the early mazaks had head balance using air. Lately they just use about 70% of z motor load to hold it up and a break when off.
[16:37:52] <wb9mjn> They have allot more stall torque rating...
[16:38:09] <rayh> separate air over fan for z.
[16:38:20] <wb9mjn> The current into the motor here, worse case is 3.6 amps static...
[16:39:18] <robin_sz> coo
[16:39:27] <wb9mjn> Ran the numbers on the various disk motors on Ebay, and the static current comes out like 4 amps min, with the largest ratio, I dare...
[16:39:42] <jmkasunich> rayh: are these Mazaks quill machines like Rolands?
[16:39:43] <robin_sz> OK, what is desired Z speed in mm/minute?
[16:39:53] <wb9mjn> So, this is running into the 10 amp PS some...
[16:39:56] <jmkasunich> I get the impression that wb9's machine has a moving head, much heaver
[16:39:57] <robin_sz> what is ballscrew pitch?
[16:39:59] <rayh> No most have a full head that moves.
[16:40:16] <wb9mjn> Its 240 in/min is the design target...
[16:40:24] <wb9mjn> Its a .2 inch pitch...
[16:40:40] <robin_sz> so 1250 RPM ...
[16:40:43] <wb9mjn> Yea...the head moves...its about 50 pounds....
[16:40:59] <robin_sz> and its a 3000rpm motor?
[16:41:12] <jmkasunich> 2:1 gearing is in order ;-)
[16:41:17] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[16:41:28] <wb9mjn> Its quite lively though,,, have done some peck drilling at 240 in/min lots of fun....
[16:41:46] <wb9mjn> Yes, 2:1 at this time, and its a 2150 rpm nominal rating motor at this time...
[16:42:03] <robin_sz> wb9mjn: so you are geared down correctly ..
[16:42:21] <wb9mjn> The disk motors can go to 6000, but the nominal is 3000...they say 6000 is practical, due to the low rotor inductance...
[16:42:22] <robin_sz> so there is ~ 1000N down force
[16:42:42] <robin_sz> no, wait
[16:42:49] <robin_sz> 250N
[16:42:50] <jmkasunich> some wire rope, a couple pulleys, and 50 lbs of scrap in a bucket
[16:43:00] <robin_sz> yip
[16:43:02] <wb9mjn> The gearing ratio uses the same parts as the original designer used....just turned the plate around and mounted the servo motor....
[16:43:32] <robin_sz> wb9mjn: and you are geared down so the shaft turns slower than the motor right?
[16:43:34] <wb9mjn> 4.48 N / lb....learned that in High School, playing with model rockets...hi..
[16:43:40] <wb9mjn> Yep...
[16:44:24] <wb9mjn> The latest design for a disk motor would use about 3.9:1 and the motor would spin up to 4800 ....but still have more stall current....
[16:44:47] <wb9mjn> Think the disk motor has poorer torque constants...must be the trade-off...does that jive ?
[16:45:02] <robin_sz> so ... you should only be seeingh about 0.1Nm of holding torque
[16:45:55] <wb9mjn> The disk motor would be well within its stall rating....hmm should put the old motor/design in the spread sheet for the new design...see what
[16:46:00] <wb9mjn> the over-rate is....
[16:46:23] <robin_sz> never really like disk motors . they wear out too qucik
[16:46:47] <wb9mjn> The static troque overate with 2:1 is 65.1 oz in versus a rating of 42.0....
[16:47:06] <robin_sz> they are very low inductance too, so may need external L to make the driv happy
[16:47:23] <robin_sz> wow .. thats real low torque.
[16:47:37] <wb9mjn> The disk motor has a 65 ozin rating....but with gearing it ll be even lower...
[16:47:51] <wb9mjn> The torque on the screw was measured at twice that 65.1 ....
[16:48:15] <wb9mjn> Ok. on that driver comment....
[16:48:50] <wb9mjn> This is a hobby machine...hopefully the durability will be OK...
[16:49:15] <wb9mjn> The present motor will be toast in a few months if I do not do something about it....I do have spares, but...
[16:49:36] <robin_sz> sounds like a stepper would be more suited
[16:49:44] <rayh> How long is the z travel?
[16:50:05] <wb9mjn> That is what the original designer had...an NEMA 34 Stepper....1970's vintage....
[16:50:13] <robin_sz> yeah
[16:50:23] <robin_sz> but steppers have come a LOMG way since then
[16:50:48] <wb9mjn> The Z travel can be as great as 12 inches, but with the new table under it, its about 8 max now....
[16:51:26] <rayh> I used a gas spring for the smithy. That was 12" travel.
[16:51:28] <robin_sz> a NEMA34 of modern desing would give 500 odd oz/in and upto 100 rpm no problem
[16:51:47] <robin_sz> 1000 rpm
[16:51:49] <robin_sz> oops
[16:51:55] <wb9mjn> Originally, why I did not do the gas spring, was I could not find one that was short enough with the travel needed...
[16:51:59] <Jacky^> hi all
[16:52:11] <wb9mjn> But now, with the shorter travel, I may beable too...
[16:52:23] <rayh> We used a puller rather than pusher and put it beside the motor.
[16:52:30] <robin_sz> although the servo is a "better" option in most cases, in a case of a small motor, under static load, a stepper wins usually.
[16:53:32] <wb9mjn> Hi Jacky....weighing my Z column problem options here....
[16:54:37] <Jacky^> interesting discussion
[16:54:48] <wb9mjn> A puller...hmmm...might need a hole in the cieling here...
[16:55:09] <wb9mjn> Have to look at it...
[16:56:11] <rayh> I know a guy who put a bpt in the basement. To tall so put it under
[16:56:44] <rayh> the kitchen and built a center butcher block cutting table in kitchen where the mill head stuck up.
[16:56:56] <wb9mjn> Ha !!!!!
[16:57:02] <rayh> now that's a tollerant SO
[16:57:36] <wb9mjn> Well she got a real butcher's block out of it!
[16:57:59] <wb9mjn> Must be wierd though, cutting up pork-chops, and the table starts humming....
[16:58:16] <wb9mjn> Hi dave-e....
[16:58:21] <dave-e> hi don
[16:58:31] <jmkasunich> if the bport doesn't touch the ceiling or underside of the table, it won't vibrate any more than the floor does
[16:58:37] <rayh> Hi Dave.
[16:58:48] <dave-e> mornin ray
[16:58:55] <wb9mjn> Trying to finalize my Z drive rework plans....
[16:59:07] <wb9mjn> Nope...but the sound would still eminate from the table...
[17:00:16] <wb9mjn> Wonder if he had vents in the table for motor cooling ?
[17:03:37] <wb9mjn> Ok...the spread sheet predict 7.8 amps for the standard servo motor at the overtoque safety factor I have in it...versus the 4 amps for the
[17:03:39] <wb9mjn> disk motor....
[17:03:56] <wb9mjn> Oops...did not update the torque constant...
[17:04:19] <wb9mjn> 4.444 amps...
[17:04:25] <wb9mjn> now...
[17:04:54] <rayh> rayh is now known as rayh-away
[17:06:01] <wb9mjn> with the 36 volts it can do 2707 RPM, and a 2:1 drive allows a 270 in/min linear speed...
[17:07:45] <wb9mjn> Spreadsheet says the ratio must be greater than 3.8 to avoid an overrateing of the continuous stall torque...
[17:08:24] <wb9mjn> With a 3.9 ratio, the stall current would drop to 2.3 amps....
[17:09:39] <wb9mjn> So, the issue is then if the 3.9 ratio is practical....the disk motor can handle the 3:1 ratio and not overrate, but the standard servo needs the 3.9
[17:10:02] <wb9mjn> which means like a 3 inch pulley on the screw....
[17:10:23] <wb9mjn> Both motors have about the same rotor inertia ...
[17:16:28] <wb9mjn> Hmm...3:1 drive with disk motor requires 5.3 amps at stall...probably will have to do both the disk motor AND the 3.9 ratio....
[17:16:47] <wb9mjn> To keep the current budget intact for the X and Y motors...
[17:17:16] <wb9mjn> Learning allot with this thing...hi..!
[17:17:46] <dave-e> modeling is dangerous. <grin>
[17:17:55] <wb9mjn> Have 8 amps total....
[17:18:36] <wb9mjn> at 48 volts....and the amplifiers are set to regulate at 36 volts...to help avoid any non-linear problems with supply droop...
[17:22:32] <wb9mjn> Big difference in inductance...standard motor 4.6 mH, versus <.1 mH for the disk motor ...
[18:03:18] <ottos> good day gents...
[18:03:49] <dmessier> hello all
[18:40:41] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as MrAsshole
[18:42:05] <Imperator_> Hi all
[18:43:08] <MrAsshole> MrAsshole is now known as Jymmm
[19:02:07] <dmessier> my linux box went DOWN hard last week
[19:03:03] <dmessier> i'm thinkin' the overclocked AMD cooked the MOBO
[19:13:42] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/TODO: updated info, improved readability
[19:23:30] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/hal_stg.c: updated info regarding credit for emc1
[19:32:09] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/docs/COPYING: removed file, as having 2 will likely make it harder to keep in sync. there is one in the topdir
[19:34:46] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/README: updated GPL/LGPL info, and the fact that only one COPYING in the topdir is enough
[19:37:00] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/debian/copyright: updated GPL/LGPL info
[19:46:00] <rayh-away> rayh-away is now known as rayh
[19:53:32] <dmessier> any opinions on the "best" most current BDI install for a newbie like me ??
[19:54:18] <dmessier> i must re-install a 4.2 Debian based system
[19:55:01] <rayh> 4.3
[19:55:32] <rayh> Works fairly well here. I don't recommend that you upgrade from it though.
[19:56:03] <dmessier> hello rayh... does it load up emc2??? or emc 1 with option for emc2
[19:56:25] <rayh> It loads BDI-emc
[19:56:45] <dmessier> ok ..same as i had
[19:56:45] <rayh> but with proper setup accordding to the wiki page it can compile emc2
[19:56:57] <dmessier> copy
[19:57:07] <rayh> This seems to work well here.
[19:57:25] <rayh> the compile takes less than 2 minutes on my athalon64.
[19:57:36] <dmessier> was it the basis for the mazak retro??
[19:58:24] <rayh> We started the mazak project with 4.20 but rebuilt with 4.30 this fall.
[19:59:20] <dmessier> cool.. was it a nihgtmare rebuild??
[19:59:26] <jmkasunich> rayh: did we re-install 4.30 in October? I thought the box was still running 4.20
[19:59:32] <rayh> No problems at all.
[19:59:46] <cradek> (sorry)
[19:59:52] <dmessier> nice..
[19:59:54] <rayh> I thought we did when we got there.
[20:00:18] <jmkasunich> I don't think so
[20:00:20] <rayh> but I've been wrong before.
[20:00:34] <dmessier> and you got the t/c to go and all..
[20:00:38] <jmkasunich> did a cvs update to get the latest emc2, but the distro is still 4.20
[20:01:12] <rayh> All of the EMC related stuff is from EMC2 rather than bdi.
[20:02:11] <jmkasunich> yeah, I guess I wasn't clear... when I say "BDI" I mean the distro
[20:02:26] <jmkasunich> I don't use the emc that is on the BDI
[20:02:53] <rayh> dmessier: What was your t/c concern?
[20:03:13] <dmessier> the plc side of things
[20:03:36] <rayh> Okay. all of that was handled by hal and classicladder.
[20:03:51] <rayh> and handled very well IMO.
[20:05:16] <alex_joni> dmessier: depends on how you plan to upgrade
[20:05:32] <dmessier> very well... my cudos to you and yours... that "was" the fumbling block to actively using emc as an option for big$$$ retro fits
[20:05:36] <alex_joni> the debian way apt-get update upgrade might leave you with a non-working system
[20:05:57] <alex_joni> but if you decide to reinstall from a new CD, that might be OK
[20:06:05] <alex_joni> although for emc2 you don't need that
[20:06:39] <dmessier> i believe in wipe and start over...
[20:08:32] <rayh> I know nothing about the ability of 4.38 to compile emc2
[20:08:41] <alex_joni> rayh: I'm running 4.38 with emc2
[20:08:51] <alex_joni> pretty easy, took me about 10 minutes to run emc2
[20:08:56] <alex_joni> wiki covers it
[20:09:41] <alex_joni> there is another way to compile emc2 (than the way described on the wiki), but both work. so I wouldn't want to scare off newbies
[20:09:47] <rayh> Great. So it's three steps, Install bdi, add compile packages, compile emc2.
[20:10:02] <alex_joni> I didn't have to add anything, they were already there
[20:10:25] <rayh> No setup of any kind beyond the install?
[20:10:35] <alex_joni> but I heard some had to add packages (kernel-headers) so that's in the wiki aswell
[20:10:49] <alex_joni> rayh: the usual, sound & desktop :)
[20:10:57] <alex_joni> but emc2-wise no
[20:10:58] <rayh> Right. That is what I meand by the middle of the three.
[20:11:32] <alex_joni> on the install I did (I chose xfce instead of kde) I didn't have to add any other packages
[20:11:34] <rayh> My typing is getting worse.
[20:11:46] <alex_joni> although kde still got installed, and I had to remove it lateron
[20:11:56] <rayh> But the kernel source and all are other packages, are they not.
[20:12:06] <rayh> added in.
[20:12:22] <alex_joni> kernel source is not needed
[20:12:31] <alex_joni> headers is enough to build emc2 on 4.38
[20:12:32] <rayh> Headers are needed
[20:12:38] <rayh> are they in there?
[20:12:39] <dmessier> sounds like a sweet distro
[20:12:48] <rayh> when you install or did you have to add them?
[20:12:49] <alex_joni> yes, and my install had headers already in the right place
[20:13:08] <rayh> Do you did NOT have to add anything except the emc2 source?
[20:13:18] <dmessier> have a link to an image...
[20:13:35] <alex_joni> rayh: I only installed a custom version of the BDI, by chosing xfce instead of kde
[20:13:49] <alex_joni> I think that custom install caused the headers to get installed aswell
[20:13:59] <alex_joni> although I didn't do anything in that direction
[20:14:09] <alex_joni> I basicly ended up with a system ready for emc2
[20:14:10] <dmessier> possible..
[20:14:38] <alex_joni> but I helped another user to get emc2 ready, and he didn't have the kernel headers nor the rtai-dev package
[20:14:49] <alex_joni> so I guess the standard install doesn't give you those
[20:14:58] <alex_joni> I can't explain it otherwise
[20:15:12] <rayh> I see.
[20:15:42] <rayh> We should get dmessier to do a plain install and see what's missing.
[20:16:02] <rayh> and what steps he has to take to get it going properly.
[20:16:35] <dmessier> thats my plan i'll report back... once the machine is up and running
[20:17:01] <rayh> Fantastic. This stuff never quite seems to install the same way twice.
[20:17:29] <alex_joni> ok, I added all there is to know on the wiki, let me know (or better update the info there) if you discover any new things
[20:17:33] <jtr> data point: I chose the development system option on my 4.30 install - think I got the tools but not the kernel headers
[20:18:23] <rayh> That's good to know.
[20:18:42] <dmessier> who has a clean distro image available???
[20:19:04] <alex_joni> you can find one on my mirror
[20:19:14] <rayh> I've tended to recommend that a new install not go online until after the box is setup.
[20:19:15] <alex_joni> http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/emc/
[20:19:47] <rayh> use the apt-cdrom add and get the additional packages from it rather than from the web.
[20:20:40] <dmessier> different box to burn cd's
[20:22:36] <dmessier> thx alex
[20:22:46] <alex_joni> dmessier: mon plesire
[20:23:15] <alex_joni> ou peut-etre 'ma plesire'?
[20:23:44] <dmessier> ma??
[20:23:57] <alex_joni> J'ai oubli´┐Ż
[20:23:58] <dmessier> mon
[20:23:58] <alex_joni> ;)
[20:24:34] <dmessier> live on puppy linux ... i'll try that on the laptop
[20:24:48] <alex_joni> ok, say back if it works
[20:25:49] <dmessier> hrs 12 min ... d/l time.. im scared
[20:26:25] <dmessier> 4 hrs
[20:26:37] <rayh> btw I did try a puppy install to USB-stick and it works.
[20:27:11] <rayh> You've got to be somewhat careful about trying to move it from box to box.
[20:28:25] <dmessier> 42 Kb/Sec.... sucks for a dsl connection
[20:29:08] <dmessier> alex utilize tu du fille de copre
[20:30:11] <dmessier> (Cu)
[20:40:50] <alex_joni> dmessier: the box there should handle up to 100MBit
[20:40:58] <alex_joni> internet connection
[20:41:23] <alex_joni> but I suspect there are a lot of hops on the way
[20:42:37] <alex_joni> you could traceroute and see where the times are getting bigger
[20:50:29] <dmessier> i understand... no consern
[20:52:08] <dmessier> its a small world ounce you've painted it once....
[20:53:33] <jmkasunich> %y%m%d
[20:53:36] <jmkasunich> oops
[20:53:47] <alex_joni> 20060122
[20:54:32] <jmkasunich> heh
[20:54:55] <jmkasunich> by default, the backup command will name the backup file <config><yymmdd>.tar.gz
[20:55:20] <jmkasunich> hmm, probably ought to put hhmm on the end
[20:55:40] <jmkasunich> people might use it to save a config prior to editing, and restore if the edits go badly
[20:55:45] <jmkasunich> so more than one per day
[20:55:54] <alex_joni> use UTC ;)
[20:56:08] <alex_joni> (just kidding)
[20:57:59] <alex_joni> ok, think I'll go to bed
[20:58:06] <alex_joni> nothing interesting going on right now :)
[20:58:11] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[20:59:21] <jmkasunich> damn, year,month,day,hour,min is a darned long number
[20:59:39] <SWP_Away> especially in nanoseconds
[20:59:43] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[20:59:58] <jmkasunich> I'm not even using seconds
[21:00:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:00:05] <cradek> use %s
[21:00:16] <cradek> (I'm half serious)
[21:00:22] <cradek> % date +%s
[21:00:22] <cradek> 1137963596
[21:00:36] <jmkasunich> just as long, and more obscure
[21:00:46] <cradek> is it just as long? hmm ok
[21:00:59] <jmkasunich> 0601221567
[21:01:02] <cradek> if you have several of them, the filesystem will show the date and time anyway
[21:01:15] <SWPadnos> not if they have the same name
[21:01:17] <cradek> yeah, just as long
[21:01:24] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: use some punctuation, they make it longer but readable
[21:01:25] <cradek> SWPadnos: it changes every second
[21:01:34] <jmkasunich> but the "pick a saved config to restore" window will only show name
[21:01:35] <SWPadnos> yes - that would
[21:01:52] <alex_joni> 20060122-2301
[21:02:33] <SWPadnos> even better - "originalconfigname-20060122-2301
[21:02:35] <SWPadnos> "
[21:03:00] <alex_joni> yeah, that's what I meant
[21:03:12] <jmkasunich> I'm gonna drop the 20 from 2006
[21:03:32] <alex_joni> that makes it hard to read
[21:03:33] <jmkasunich> (yeah, Y2K is over, and my head is firmly buried in the sand - so sue me)
[21:03:39] <alex_joni> how about '06
[21:04:11] <SWPadnos> a couple of extra characters are no big deal. It makes sense to have the name be more readable
[21:04:17] <jmkasunich> ok
[21:04:44] <cradek> I agree 2006... is immediately recognizable as a date
[21:04:50] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: then it should really be "origconfig-2006.01.22-23:01.tar.gz"
[21:05:11] <alex_joni> but that's way long..
[21:05:11] <jmkasunich> pity the guy who has to type that
[21:05:27] <alex_joni> I just did :)
[21:05:31] <jmkasunich> but otoh, they won't normally type it, just click it in a listbox
[21:05:37] <cradek> it also makes the date format unambiguous (otherwise you have the "060504" problem)
[21:05:48] <alex_joni> IF the listbox is wide enough
[21:06:07] <alex_joni> I know some file browsers show origconf..tar.gz
[21:06:08] <jmkasunich> the listbox will resize
[21:06:17] <jmkasunich> (the tcl one anyway)
[21:06:35] <alex_joni> maybe drop the : I suggested
[21:06:41] <jmkasunich> I kinda like 2006.01.22-16:06
[21:06:46] <jmkasunich> I kinda like 2006.01.22-1606
[21:06:54] <alex_joni> right.. seems best
[21:07:02] <alex_joni> filenames with : in it seem iffy
[21:07:08] <jmkasunich> . and - are common in filenames, : not so much
[21:07:16] <alex_joni> there might be systems which don't support them
[21:07:29] <alex_joni> good thinking ;)
[21:10:13] <jtr> and without the : it looks like military time 0600, 0430
[21:11:54] <jmkasunich> I'm thinking I should use <config><datetime> as the default name but give the user the option to edit it
[21:12:21] <cradek> you're going to hate me for this but ...
[21:12:27] <cradek> I don't think any of this belongs in emc
[21:12:29] <jmkasunich> he might want '<config>-before_i_fscked_with_it' or something
[21:12:42] <cradek> making backups, copying and renaming files, etc is a job of other programs
[21:12:49] <cradek> gnome/kde have guis for this already
[21:12:56] <jmkasunich> it isn't in emc, it is in setupconfig.tcl ;-)
[21:13:02] <jmkasunich> I know - this is for newbies
[21:13:55] <cradek> I know, but that doesn't change my opinion...
[21:14:26] <jmkasunich> ok, user who is brand new to linux, and maybe even not very computer literate with doze
[21:14:38] <jmkasunich> he has a problem, and you want him to send you his config
[21:14:54] <jmkasunich> you want to walk him thru tarring it up
[21:14:57] <jmkasunich> ?
[21:15:00] <cncuser> good evening
[21:15:04] <jmkasunich> hi
[21:15:06] <cradek> I guess you'd have to tell him what to type
[21:15:10] <cradek> after that, he'd know how
[21:15:28] <jmkasunich> not unless he was taking notes
[21:15:55] <SWPadnos> the true newbie would need to take notes to repeat the process wven with a GUI
[21:16:00] <SWPadnos> even
[21:16:08] <skunkworks> - cradek - jepler showed me how to apply a patch to axis. I would have to ask how to do it agian.
[21:16:36] <skunkworks> I didn't take notes ;)
[21:16:38] <jmkasunich> the worst way to get somebody to learn something is to walk them thru it
[21:16:44] <cradek> ok I shouldn't have brought this up
[21:17:04] <jmkasunich> it's like having someone follow you in a car to a strange place - they focus on keeping up with you, not on noting the landmarks
[21:17:20] <jmkasunich> cradek: nothing wrong with bringing it up, you make a good point
[21:17:24] <SWPadnos> I like that analogy
[21:17:30] <skunkworks> very good
[21:17:38] <cradek> well I knew everyone would disagree with me
[21:17:44] <jmkasunich> lol
[21:17:53] <cncuser> jmkasunich: with gui apps. i love demos where some invisible hand takes over the mouse and keyboard and uses the software
[21:20:38] <alex_joni> cncuser: how about video tutorials?
[21:21:07] <cncuser> alex_joni: are good, but with the interactive real programthing, one can stop do somthing on his own...
[21:21:17] <cncuser> or look up some parameters in between
[21:21:41] <alex_joni> heh, I think you never met Aunt Tillie
[21:21:43] <jmkasunich> or the tutorial can do something, then tell the student "ok, now you do the next one"
[21:23:03] <cncuser> alex_joni: hehe, no i havent. but i recently tried a simple 3d modelling software. and it came with 10 or 15 tutorials, some where zou can lean back for 10 minutes and the show runs :)
[21:23:07] <cncuser> i love it :)
[21:23:35] <cncuser> i dont have tv :)
[21:24:21] <fenn> shaddup kids, tonight we're watching CAD tutorials
[21:24:38] <cncuser> harhar :)
[21:24:55] <cncuser> edutainment :)
[21:25:20] <cncuser> says fuzzy the wuzzy buzzword beaver
[21:26:23] <cncuser> when i was zounger it didnt matter to me want was on tv. as long as i could stay up some more longer and watch. :)
[21:29:58] <alex_joni> ok.. and with that I go to bed
[21:30:01] <alex_joni> night everybody
[21:39:18] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[22:08:25] <Jacky^> hauahauaua
[22:08:29] <Jacky^> http://www.beppegrillo.it/eng/2006/01/stanca_express.html#comments
[22:09:35] <Jacky^> Using paper to explain digital is like sending a letter by pony after the invention of the automobile.
[22:09:38] <Jacky^> LOL
[22:10:53] <Jymmm> FYI... If you have a gmail acnt, lets say emc@gmail.com, you can add a 'suffix' of sorts that can be filtered later on. Example: emc+ray@gmail.com you can create a filter to automatically delete those messages, or emc+orders@gmail.com to flag those as important.
[22:11:48] <Jacky^> :)
[22:11:56] <Jymmm> Great way to track who's selling your email address too.
[22:12:06] <Jacky^> nice
[22:15:56] <NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
[22:15:56] <NickServ> If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
[22:26:12] <tomp> hello all
[22:31:29] <fenn> Jymmm did you just get that off slashdot?
[22:31:37] <Jymmm> nope
[22:31:47] <fenn> weird
[22:31:51] <Jymmm> why?
[22:31:57] <fenn> http://slashdot.org/articles/06/01/22/1921241.shtml
[22:32:07] <fenn> someone just mentioned it in ##microcontrollers
[22:32:58] <Jymmm> the dot booboo, or the + thingy?
[22:34:02] <fenn> the dot booboo
[22:34:10] <Jymmm> http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Past-discussions/browse_thread/thread/e2247185d5aadf3b/1841cd64d4e02b41?q=plus+in+email+address&rnum=5#1841cd64d4e02b41
[22:34:12] <fenn> but they mention the + thingy in the comments
[22:34:35] <Jymmm> Well, maybe it change in the future, but I like it =)
[22:34:45] <fenn> + seems so easy for spam harvesters to figure out
[22:35:02] <Jymmm> I'd prefer emc@emc.gmail.com though
[22:35:23] <Jymmm> or PotentialSpammer@emc.gmail.com
[22:37:28] <fenn> i love how the email addresses in that article are all blanked out.. kinda hard to understand
[22:37:52] <fenn> the one you posted
[22:38:09] <Jymmm> in the grp posting? yeah and theyre wrong too
[22:38:12] <Jymmm> syntax wise
[22:38:43] <Jymmm> . doens't work
[22:38:43] <Jymmm> + does
[22:38:43] <Jymmm> I just tested them both
[22:38:43] <Jymmm> and : is illegal
[22:38:54] <fenn> they all just say [email address]
[22:39:12] <fenn> probably have to sign in or something
[22:39:48] <Jymmm> well the brackets are a visual aid, not part of the syntax
[22:40:01] <jmkasunich> automated filtering of email addys is a nice spam protection, except when the article is about email addys ;-)
[22:40:14] <Jymmm> lol too true
[22:40:52] <Jymmm> Since I control my domains, I have lots of dynamic emailaddresses
[22:42:26] <Jymmm> One job search place my gf signed up for years ago stated a no sellign your info policy. But we had set her up a dunamic address and caught thier asses in a bold lie and had proof even though they denied it.
[22:43:05] <jmkasunich> maybe they played a semantics game
[22:43:17] <Jymmm> no it was for some finacial crap
[22:43:28] <jmkasunich> "we didn't sell it, we gave it away" (to a partner company that sold it 2 seconds later)
[22:43:37] <Jymmm> _jobservice@jmkasunich.tld
[22:43:37] <fenn> haha thats a good one
[22:44:07] <Jymmm> jmkasunich maybe, but they still denied it and reported them to the BBB
[22:45:24] <Jymmm> jmkasunich you have your own domain dont you?
[22:45:31] <jmkasunich> no
[22:45:40] <Jymmm> oh, ok, nm.
[22:45:53] <jmkasunich> plain vanilla ISP, dynamic IP addy, no hosting allowed
[22:46:06] <jmkasunich> (they give me 10M on their webserver for hosting)
[22:48:00] <Jymmm> that works
[23:04:39] <CIA-14> 03jmkasunich * 10emc2/tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl: setupconfig.tcl 'backup' command now works, all thats left is the 'restore' command
[23:15:57] <Jacky^> night