SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
* Jymmm hands LawrenceG a beer
Made from prunes.... Yum!
* LawrenceG glub glub glug ahhhh
I managed to build emc and axis last nice so I could run sim on my devel box...
seems to berunning much better than previous versions... not hanging anymore
there were some hassles to fix as by default gcc4.x was used
thats always a good thing.
I should update the wiki page... but I will have to remember what I did!
just hit your brain rewind button =)
one change to a conditional declaration and adding an include directory to the makefile I think was all
I dun know, they have been amking a LOT of changes lately
I should have been out in the shop today milling a pcb, but is was cold out there...
the wood stove is roaring in here tonight
[04:02:35] <LawrenceG> http://members.shaw.ca/cncstuff/tstbrd-brd.png
[04:02:57] <LawrenceG> http://members.shaw.ca/cncstuff/tstbrd.png
[04:03:18] <LawrenceG> http://members.shaw.ca/cncstuff/tstbrdbd.ngc
[04:03:33] <LawrenceG> http://members.shaw.ca/cncstuff/tstbrdbot.ngc
LawrenceG: where's the picture of the finished board?
Hi Chris.... maybe after supper
want to see the first one I did?
ok.. will find it and upload it
testbrdbot.ngc looks pretty good
what tool are you using?
yea looks good in axis.. tool is a home ground broken pcb drill... gross but it worked
fwiw, I think I only cut .0045 deep
7 seems really deep
yea... I fudged the depth as it made the first cut until it looked good... not sure how deep it actually was
I cant seem to find the pic... will take another
[04:14:58] <LawrenceG> http://members.shaw.ca/cncstuff/p1010060.jpg
[04:15:19] <LawrenceG> http://members.shaw.ca/cncstuff/p1010066.jpg
[04:15:33] <LawrenceG> http://members.shaw.ca/cncstuff/p1010067.jpg
those are pix of board being milled, and top and bottom of finsihed board
you might try some 400 grit sandpaper to clean up the curled edges of the traces
a better tool will help with that too
that is the dspic programmer board... the other stuff is for a dspic test board for working on the 3phase ac servo project
I hope I don't regret not getting some of those servos
yea, I did some cleanupwith the exacto.... cutting too deep causes a lot of curing as the fiberglass gets pushed around
your tool was carbide, right?
was this your first board? If so, it's really good
first one...., To make the jig, I used a piece of plastic and surfaced it off so that it was flat to the table, then taped the pcb on top with double sided carpet tape.... had a hell of a time getting it off!
what is your spindle? what is that huge cylinder?
yep, I've sure dealt with that too...
its a morse taper 3 extension with a 1/4 collet with a 1/8bit in an adapter
I dont have a 1/8 collet...
what is the spindle speed?
slow... only about 3000rpm
ah, you must have been feeding REALLY slow then
that didn't break the tool? I'm really surprised
my tools are rated at .001/rotation and they break at about .002/rotation
well the tool is pretty solid... just a flat on the tapered portion of a broken pcb drill
a good use for those odd size drills that come in the 50 piece sets
I keep all my broken carbide tools too
I need to get a much finer diamond grinder
I have only a regular bench grinder...
it just used a dremel to roughly shape things and it wobbled a bit
well congrats on your first board
have you used the cem type of pcb for routing? Its a paper epoxy board.. made for punching holes for single sided boards... it may be easier on bits
I think the only reason it was usable was that I used 0.020 clearance as a design rule and traces that were 0.040 or bigger
no traces between pads
I got 3 of the 300watt servos... man they look great...
I fired one up with the power supply.... takes about 5v to get rated current
no, I've not worked with "cem"
I have some doublesided boards from Radio Shack that are not FR
they are very easy on tools
I don't know what they are
torque is not bad.... cant make it skip by hand cranking the shaft.... but it does "spring"
There is a guy on ebay selling boards that is quite cheap.... let me get the link...
these RS boards cut smoothly
if you snap one it breaks ... um ... like very sharp cheese
[04:33:23] <LawrenceG> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7561212015&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1
not sure how to describe it
that is cheap if they're usable
I though I would give them a try.... I dont really like the idea of all the glass bits flying around and getting into me or the machinery
yeah, I just let it pile up and then vacuum before the board before I try to remove it from the machine
doesn't seem like it flies too far
I got a batch of 50 double sided FR4 boards from him a couple of weeks ago
I find that I usually make singlesided boards
I try really hard to lay out singlesided - they're much easier
Shipping was $22.50... twice as much as the boards were worth
50 boards for $30 is still fairly cheap I guess
yea.. I dont mind adding a few jumpers for stuff that wont quite route
I like to make all the jumpers parallel in one direction, then use plain bus wire
route everything on the bottom and add topside jumpers for the last few traces
one jumper is easier to solder than two vias...
I have tried layout with surface mount stuff yet...still have mostly through hole parts in the junk box
smd is surprisingly hard to lay out singlesided
you can't pass traces between IC pads
yea or smd resistors!
I have used 0805 0-ohm "resistors" to pass traces under
I can put a trace under 0805 easily
well got the super call... bbl
LawrenceG playing with BMP to GCODE, does this look right...
N1( This file is created by MaJoSoft www.majosoft.com )
N2 G00 X0 Y0 Z2
N3 G01 Y0 Z-1.182
N4 G01 X0.25 Z-1.123
N5 G01 X0.5 Z-1.162
N6 G01 X0.75 Z-1.045
N7 G01 X1 Z-1.143
N8 G01 X1.25 Z-1.24
N9 G01 X1.5 Z-1.055
N10 G01 X1.75 Z-1.055
N11 G01 X2 Z-1.055
N12 G01 X2.25 Z-0.996
N13 G01 X2.5 Z-1.064
N14 G01 X2.75 Z-1.172
N15 G01 X3 Z-1.289
Hello, is this the place to ask EMC questions?
it start Z at 2, then -1.182 ????????
Bronson emc, as the cnc controller?
looks like its all in mm... couldbe right...scanning in x with varying z's
I am getting "radius to end of arc differs from radius to start"
the only info I have found requires recompiling src
LawrenceG oh, duh.... you're right it is in mm
but I am using the BDI install
and can't get a network card sorted...
Bronson: Most of the folks that can help you are asleep (I think).
do most people recompile with with misc options?
Jymmm: puta G21 in the front of the file and look at it in axis
LawrenceG G21 (bingo?)
LawrenceG you act like I write gcode or something
yea... you win! G21 will read the file in metric... it should work ok
Bronson you might try around 6am GMT-0800, ppl begin lurking around that time.
Bronson They'll be able to lead you in the right direction, I'm just clueless =)
heheh, if it has the src code it can be fixed...
Bronson: I am not sure which bdi you are using and what network setup tools exist.... if you have another card,you could try putting it in the box
it's a laptop, omnibook 900
it uses a pcmcia xircom net card
but it didn't recogize it during the insall
scratch that idea
I might try downloading the src and burning it to a cd
then bringing it over
I just need to change one stinking #define presumably
Xircom cards aren't heavily support all around. Even Win98 has had issue I've personal found (though I own quite a few of them)
If you have a intel or 3COM, you might have better luck.
i'll dig around
Dell 10/100 PCMCIA nics are/were 3COM btw
LawrenceG: If you care... BMP2DIN Freebie http://engraving.majosoft.com/html/software.html
thanks... have seen that site before.... I think cradek (maybe jepler) has some source code on his site
03paul_c * 10emc2-auto/wiki/ (diff_log maintain page/E/EMC2_FileHeader.db): "Auto update wiki from a cron job. Wed Nov 16 05:30:01 GMT 2005 "
[Global Notice] Hi all. We're experiencing some routing problems between Europe and the US. We may need to reroute. Please bear with us.
bronson you're sure that you actually can complete the arc you programmed?
it stopped working when I enabled cutter comp
it is generated in mastercam 9.1
last time that happened the person was cutting an arc with a radius too short
oh and the time before that it was the cam program had a rounding error
does it say which line it happens on?
it says in the manual to change the TOLERANCE_xxx value
making it less strict I guess
other places say that emc is really picky
yeah, one of the pdf manuals has the error mentioned
I am working on getting networking working to get the source now...
linux is a bastard with some devices
looks like TOLERANCE_ is defined a bunch of times
it showed .0002 for the INCH setting
ok, have networking going now...
yup .. it is
is it possibile to get remote access to new DRM processor system without pass trough the O.S. ?!
jacky you were talking about how a bunch of little capacitors was better than one big one..
i'm ordering dumb crap from electronic goldmine and haven't figured out my power supply stuff yet
yes, it should be much better and faster
depends on what you mean by better
better for what?
for ex. you can change a single capacitor
do not have a big one 10k uF capacitor
I do not have one big 10k uF capacitor
but the advantage is the fastness
I have a battery of 20 such capacitors
20 x 10k uF
10k uf should have a slow response
in peak too
yes. but in a Power Source that's what I need
thats why many HIFI amplifier are using small capacitors ..
e.g. voltage not influenced by consumption
very similar as motor driver
amplifier is a whole different thing as power source
for PS I need big caps
for amps, smaller ones
that's why I asked what you mean by better..
are we talking about motor amps?
id use small capacitors for all
fenn: what do you need them for?
thats no wrong, sure
i'm fumbling around trying to come up with a ~30V power supply
ok.. so basic design?
how much ripple is acceptable?
transformer, rectifier and cap ?
what do you power from it?
mosfet pwm amps
[13:37:02] <fenn> http://pico-systems.com/japservo.html
how many amps do those need?
pretty thin wires.. wouldn't say more than 1-2 amps / motor
so 6 amps / 3 axes ?
i dont know if 100W is a peak rating or continuos rating
6 axes.. 12 amps
a little over-engineering couldnt hurt either
ok.. so design it for 100W / axis = 600W PS
600 W @ 30V means 20Amps
that's pretty high ;)
get some big caps
or else the voltage will drop when one motor starts..
I would put a few 10k uF (about 3-4)
how do you come up with this number?
my guts tell me
if you can go to groups.yahoo.com / geckodrive
there are some PS schematics there
What's also noticeable, when peeking into the CAM 350's insides, is the absence of gigantic capacitors. Class�'s approach, enabled by recent improvements in capacitor design and materials, is to use a large number of small, fast capacitors instead of a smaller number of large ones. The rationale is simple: smaller capacitors charge and release energy more quickly, so smaller capacitors mean a faster, cleaner circuit.
yes.. for switching application you are correct
on a power supply you WANT exactly the opposite
the voltage produced needs to be as linear as possible
fenn: you should really build the POWER_SUPPLY.pdf (protection to the PS), in case your fet's aren't rated much higher than 30V
fenn: read through the docs there.. a lot of info
i already have some IGBT's rated at 300V, but jmk says it's a bad idea to use those
IGBT's are a bit slow
opening slowly I mean..
so they will be kinda affected thermally
I have built a PWM DC drive using MOS-FET's
if you need schematics.. they are available
mine handled about 10A without getting warm at all
but it's a pretty basic design..
if I were to do it all over again.. I wouldn't :P
the igbt has to dissipate current from slinging the gate charge back and forth, i think that's why he dislikes them
not worth the hassle.. get some G340, and you'll be set :P
i might use an l298 per motor instead of discrete chips
L298 ?..so you're driving steppers?
no, it's a dual h-bridge
yes. but very weak
something like that...
i'll have to look at it again
yeah 2A per bridge, so 4A total
that's a dual H-bridge too
10A / bridge.. although it might go up to 50A, but I haven't tested it..
[13:50:21] <alex_joni> http://dsplabs.utt.ro/~juve/yanor/downloads.php
if you want to build it, I might have the layout somewhere aswell...
err.. it's included in the .zip
those schematics take forever to draw on the screen
wow i can get a 3 farad capacitor on ebay for only $73 :P
[14:05:39] <fenn> http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-POWER-ACOUSTIK-PCNC-2F-3-Farad-Car-Audio-Capacitor_W0QQitemZ5828770356QQcategoryZ50547QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
might be too little for you...
but as Jacky said.. use 1000000 x 3 uF caps ;)
i'm also thinking of using a bunch of 1000uf or 2700uf
60V caps are pretty small
I have a 10000 uF, 63V cap right now in my hand
it's about an inch thick, and 2.5 inches long
i've got a bunch of computer p/s lying around... think those might be good?
I don't trust them
computer stuff is engineered to be very at the limit
so as to have it cheap
US export tons of cookies in EU
EU export tons of cookies in US
they are all owned by the same people anyway
and we have a lot of planes gioin up and down
nah that stuff goes on a boat
ok, the cookies are not the same
but why they dont exchange the recipe ??
i'm sure you're familiar with italian food-naming laws
has to be made in a certain village to be "frou frou biscuit"
inefficiency is good for the economy
fenn: spot on
looks like the cheapest way to 40mf at >50V is to use 8 series-pairs of 10mf
yup.. 10mF is pretty much standard
how about only 4 in parallel?
nothing will blow up if i use 2 10mf 24V caps in series right?
only series halfs the capacitance
parallel doubles it
so using 4 caps gives you the original capacitance.. no gain
16 capacitors total
yes, but that's 16 caps for 40mF
and you can get that with only 4
that's a waste of 12 caps
you don't have so much power that it might matter..
i havent found any 10mf rated for higher voltages
try 10000 uF ;)
futurlec has 10mf 24v for $1.70 each.. and i'm already ordering from there
63V is standard
also 100V, but that's too high
50V might be enough too..
[14:36:59] <alex_joni> http://www.thlaudio.com/bhcapitme.htm
located in Taipei :D
[14:38:46] <alex_joni> http://www.profusionplc.com/cgi-bin/gex/pcatdtl?ipartno=CE10000U50-ELH
about 3USD / piece
if you buy 5
that picture of the 1 cubic foot of g-rex's is scary
fenn: what pic?
guess I missed that one
[14:56:39] <fenn> http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UC17QzV7LJRPyZmm_8bXgb6aEZSWSnWPdFItAqkvqH9WqpamZciVt4zbOEqRFqED_zgbdk_QjBQOo1jpTwARZLlszdF-z7Iy/372
that probably wont work.. it's 372 G-rex in the files section
it did work
and I found it after that too..
should i even be screwing around with transformers? why not just recitfy 120V directly and throw some lightbulbs in there as resistors?
it's too cold in here anyway
transformers also give you separation
for noise suppression?
there ought to be a chip that provides regulated power right off the main lines
actually i have some "wall warts" that weigh much less than they ought to
well... our robots just moved to 600V servo's
AC servo's that is
mainly because 600V you can get right of rectivied 400V mains
right.. that's what icee's doing on the p5 driver board
i should be able to chop the voltage down to ~24V since i'm pwm'ing anyway
sense the voltage coming out with the microchip's a/d
only need a tiny isolation transformer then
(to protect the micro)
Be careful with series capacitors. If the capacitances are unequal (and they alway are -- those things have lousy tolerances), the voltatages across them will be unequal. Unsually if you want to put power supply capacitors in series, you have to put resistors in parallel with each capacitor to equalize the voltage. (I don't know typical resistor values to use).
ok - that seemed like a bad idea to me
is there a page that explains the markup available on the emc wiki?
[15:34:28] <fenn> http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TextFormattingRules
aha. and how was I supposed to know this was a "usemod" wiki?
jepler: by using it ;)
just hang out on irc and listen to me bitch about usemod all the time
fenn: which wiki software do you prefer? I have the most experience with moinmoin.
i like pukiwiki, but i'm sure there are other good ones out there
problem with pukiwiki is it's mostly in japanese
documentation i mean
on usemod I can't make an off-site link without [angle brackets I don't want]?
i cant figure that one out either
* jepler grumbles
* alex_joni likes the wiki used for wikipedia
alex_joni: "mediawiki", I think it's called?
[15:45:29] <alex_joni> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki
since jepler's here i tried to use axis again.. it seems blt was badly packaged
and this keeps axis from running
_tkinter.TclError: couldn't load file "/home/gb/rpm/tmp/blt-2.4z-9mdk-buildroot/usr/lib/libBLT24": /home/gb/rpm/tmp/blt-2.4z-9mdk-buildroot/usr/lib/libBLT24: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
% rpm -qa|grep blt
yeah, I'm rh9
seems to me that tkinter is not compiled properly.. not blt..
"gb" is the packager of blt
_tkinter.TclError: couldn't load file "/usr/lib/blt2.4/libBLT24.so": /usr/lib/blt2.4/libBLT24.so: undefined symbol: TkSetClassProcs
i have tcl/tk 8.4.7-2
blt says they should be compatible
* fenn tries another blt package
SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
hey -I've got a stupid emc configuration question
do you remember the video of the other day ?
[16:19:15] <Jacky^> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article327379.ece
that was a different kind of WP than I've seen
I'm used to the grenades
ok i think i squelched the blt issue with an ugly hack.. is there a way to run axis without running EMC?
but you can run the simulator
no machine or realtime required
now it can't find libnml.so...
maybe i set env wrong
but only for emc1
alex have you tried recompiling axis since all the make-install changes?
fenn: didn't have the chance..
but it shouldn't be related
I mean.. you're not trying to compile axis on an installed system, now do you?
fenn: what system are you trying to build it on?
i cant figure out a) why it can't find libnml.so or b) where it's supposed to get the paths to libnml.so
cradek: ?? fedora 3 or thereabouts
I mean which emc
emc2 from what I'm getting
fenn: if it can wait till tonight I'll look at it
if not.. read setup.py
you'll figure it out.. it's very readable
it looks for libnml in emcroot/lib
fenn: probably you didn't make emc2?
there's no libnml.so
oops n/m there is one
"Building for EMC2 in /home/blipkowi/emc2"
CVS hal_lib.o libemc.a libnml.a libnmld.a libnml.so libpm.a ulapi.o
ImportError: libnml.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
in import gcode
that's all the info i've got
are you having trouble compiling it or running it?
but you did compile it yourself?
and you didn't move your emc2 dir after that?
linux-gate.so.1 => (0xffffe000)
libnml.so => ../../lib/libnml.so (0xb7f73000)
using rel. dirs :(
% ldd build/lib.linux-i686-2.2/gcode.so
libnml.so => /home/chris/emc2/lib/libnml.so (0x40033000)
er, i think i screwed that up
i set emc2root to ../../ the first time i compiled it, then i deleted gcode.so and re-installed
... -o build/lib.linux-i686-2.2/gcode.so -DNEW_INTERPRETER -Wl,-rpath,/home/chris/emc2/lib
and you're wondering it won't work...
oh, yeah, don't do that :-)
and then he comes in here wining that it won't work :D
cradek: btw, wanted to ask you about this .so linking
fenn: don't mind me ;) I'm just kidding
cradek: how is it supposed to work when make install'ing ?
should the verious dependencies get relinked?
against the installed .so ?
no, you should put the libraries somewhere in ld.so's path
ahh.. then it knows?
i thought "setup.py clean" would remove the stuff in axis/build/
well, it works now..
so - with emc1, is there a way to change limit switch pin assignments without recompiling?
alex_joni: ld's -rpath only adds a library to the search path. You can just put those .so files in any usual system lib directory instead, if you like.
ahh.. I see
alex_joni: another fix would be to ditch all the -rpath and have emc.run set LD_LIBRARY_PATH for the run-in-place case
eek - that poses a problem in some odd developer situations
the rpath thing, not LD_LIBRARY_PATH
chris: will you be around later?
SWPadnos: right now it's with -rpath
* alex_joni goes home..
well -make a copy of a dev tree, on a system where emc2 has been "installed"
and you end up with the "installed" versions of libraries
I'll be around off and on until 2300 UTC
UTC doesn't say anything to me
talk GMT ;)
2500 your time (or is it 2600?)
uh, it hasn't been called GMT for years
I'll be around off and on until 2300 GMT
I'm GMT + 2 :P
gone now.. later guys
SWPadnos: from my reading of ld.so(8), the -rpath is searched before the default search path
SWPadnos: also, LD_LIBRARY_PATH is searched before the default search path
SWPadnos: so I don't think there is a problem with either scheme.
the problem we had was that renaming a development dir caused emc2 to not run, because the rpath was a fully qualified path
there are missing symbols
I don't consider that a problem
so, making emc.run change the LD_LIBRARY_PATH is a good idea, as long as it uses some form of `pwd` for non-installed emc2
it's just a pain - copy emc2 to another user directory, and it mysteriously doesn't work any more
I thought you were talking about a potential problem with make install
I thought you were talking about a potential problem with make install's interaction with another run-in-place tree
yes - that's what I'm talking about
then I don't understand what you're saying at all
if the directory is renamed after make, then that dir will use the installed libs, not the local libs
yes, that's right
that's bad, if you're trying to test e.g. changes you've just made WRT. an old version
would you like an example?
no, I understand what you're saying
I just don't think it's a big problem
that's what you get when you use -rpath
not a big problem, just a PITA
apparently so :)
like I said though, we could ditch -rpath and use a relative LD_LIBRARY_PATH
I'm all for that
add something like this to emc.run:
do those have to be absolute paths (security issues aside)?
man page says it's ignored if setuid/setgid, but no other restrictions
ok - cool.
I'll try that and make some changes if I get anything to work ;)
alex_joni you made that 3 motor wire thingy, didn't you?
if you get some spare time, let me know.
I would have something to do.. but no urge to really do it :D
I have a spare tire
oh - wait - *time*
SWPadnos: only if it's 40"+
oh yeah, baby
oh - the tire
for les's tractor
in chrome of course
so - let me repeat my earlier question:
so - with emc1, is there a way to change limit switch pin assignments without recompiling?
but it involves rerouting wires on the motherboard
get out your soldering iron..
ok, so it's either hardware or recompile
or emc2 ;)
I'm composing a response to a question on CCED, and didn't want to overlook some obvious thing
yes - I mention emc2
[18:07:27] <alex_joni> http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/silveraudi.asp
and the XYLOTEX define
DeLorean actually had a gold plated car
you had two choices - stainless steel, or gold plate
the cost difference was $100k (in the late '70s)
it should have been obvious to the writer of that text that the sheik who bought this car isn't a "camel jockey" ;)
lol.. guess so
SWPadnos: tried the latest emc2?
still buggy? or did the fix I commited work?
no - still trying to get past the failed readline update :(
yeah - I went for "mark all upgrades" in synaptic
I guess it was a mistake
it can't update readline for some reason, and there's a lot that depends on that (like a bunch of KDE and development apps)
sounds like halcmd needs some o' that
[18:14:19] <Jymmm> http://static.flickr.com/31/63920683_4c9ffd9b7e_m.jpg
readline and getopt, I'd say
[18:14:47] <Jymmm> http://static.flickr.com/27/63920684_9c29dfa3df_m.jpg
wow is that styrofoam?
looks plaster-ish to me
lol, no... just a poor paint job
actually.a a Q&D paint job (first coat)
it's wood, then :)
compressed sawdust and frozen snot
mmmm - breakfast
would it be exceedingly hard to make my own switching power supply?
not if you use a switching supply controller chip
but it depends on the current and voltage you want
(shall I continue? :) )
off by one there, Jymmm - it's 1.21 Gigawatts
fenn: what do you need that for?
certainly not for driving the amps..
a traditional one can be even better
and you don't need that stable voltage..
well, then i gotta get a transformer
get a toroidal one ;)
nice and small
my first thought was to use th micro to switch ~180V and simultaneously modulate voltage and current
but i thought it might blow stuff up if the software was buggy
fenn, let me say one thing, and please understand that I'm not trying to be a pain
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU MAKE A SERVO SYSTEM WITHOUT AN ISOLATION TRANSFORMER!!!
ok - I feel better now :)
fenn: what SWPadnos said.
you *will* kill someone
Yeah, an iso xfmr is NOT NOT NOT optional...
Death by CNC
this means a real transformer, with two separate windings, not an autotransformer (variac)
Got 450V at about 250mA once and lived, that was enough to educate me...
fenn I have a bunch of US sources if needed
heh - try sticking bobby pins in electrical outlets during a thunderstorm -that's really fun ;)
* K`zan was DAMN lucky.
[18:25:37] <Jymmm> http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&DID=7&CAT_ID=45&ObjectGroup_ID=329&SO=2
[18:25:47] <Jymmm> http://www.avellindberg.com/
[18:25:57] <Jymmm> http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=7846+TR
[18:25:59] <SWPadnos> http://www.toroid.com/
[18:26:16] <Jymmm> http://www.mcitransformer.com/i_product.html
[18:26:18] <SWPadnos> http://www.surpluscenter.com/
(hard to search though)
Not a bad price from MPJ, but shipping might be interesting...
ebay is pretty good as well, as long as you're not in a hurry
and you don't want more than one :)
fenn: mci will make you one if needed.
fenn in qty of one too
can you make a toroid out of a speaker magnet? those are ferrite..
not a toroid, but you could possibly wind a transformer on one
speaker magnets aren't toroidal, are they?
they are a square cross-section ring
is that not a toroid?
ah - I had never taken the center plate off one
in that case, yes, you could :)
fenn: pretty close..
technically, it's a donut (circular cross-section)
technically it's a donut huh
what happens if i use a switch-mode p/s and something goes wrong?
depends on what goes wrong
what makes it safer than a transformer?
er, less safe
switch-mode p/s doesn't isolate
if the switching circuit fails with the output FETs on, then you apply full source voltage to the load
so if something goes wrong and you touch the motor mounts you might die
switch-mode and transformer aren't comparable terms
you can use a switch-mode supply after an isolation transformer
which would be isolated
yup.. but you gotta have one
it's a question of how the regulation is done, not the isolation
so if you already get one.. why bother?
you don't need good regulation for amp supply
for servos, switchers aren't recommended
you already have a switcher in the PWM drive anyway
and it's bad to feed one switcher from another
it just doesn't work well
what was all that talk about modulating the voltage into the motors?
i was asking jmk about using a comparator to regulate current
ah - that conversation
what about it? :)
what's the point of doing that if you have to have an isolation xfmr?
two different domains
because that's inherently dangerous anyway?
you modulate current in the motor so you don't melt the windings (or overheat the motor)
you use an isolation transformer so that it's possible for a person to touch something in the control cabinet and still have a chance of living to tell the tale
sorry i wasn't clear.. what's the point of modulating the voltage to the motor?
SWPadnos: yeah.. the tale about them touching a red-glowing motor
it regulates current
fenn: Here, you can make your own torroid with any voltage you want --> http://www.toroid.com/standard_transformers/transformer_kits/transformer_kits.htm
yep - I've seen that, it looks like a great thing
fenn: call them and they can email you the manual to look at
it's 14 pages
jymmm wanna just mail it to me?
i guess i totally misunderstood that conversation
I may be misrepresenting it as well
* SWPadnos has imperfect memory
ok you were talking about handing control back+forth between two peripherals.. i thought you meant some sort of double-modulation scheme
ah - ok
kind of a bummer. I bought a transformer on ebay, and it's center tapped, not dual secondaries as described :(
dual sec would have been 4 wire, not three
yeah - I actually counted the wires after I bought it
[18:55:00] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7552506584
nice transformer, but still a bummer
I have a 110/24VT xfmr, but no clue on the VA rating.
need coffee brb
how much does it weigh?
Jymmm: how heavy is it?
seen that only after I wrote..
you know what they say..
"great minds think alike ..."
like -great minds think?
well - the apt-update problem may boil down to a locale problem
last time I fiddle with apt, I managed to uninstall "init"
there are a ton of messages like "Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory"
guess what ;)
OK as long as you don't reboot
didn't boot ..
I didn't notice it.. until I rebooted
then it came to me.. oopsy :D
then encrypt the bootloader
this is a bit annoying, because this conputer has no CD-ROM - else I'd just do an upgrade / install of 4.30
I have to remove 15 screws to get inside the case if I want to use a CD
no floppy drive either
HD and ethernet (plus 4 serial and 2 parallel)
keyboard and mouse too ;)
n oUSB until I add a slot cover connector
(15 screws ...)
don't have one, and wouldn't be able to boot from that anyway
SWPadnos sure you can.
(for a BDI4.30 upgrade)
probably not :)
can you boot from network?
can you boot?
I don't think so - this isn't a very new machine
* alex_joni sends SWPadnos a brand new boot
remove the hdd and your back to XT/AT days less the dual 5.25" floppies
well - I have an empty locale directory - maybe that isn't helping
no 8" floppy either
just enter the linux kernel via the keyboard
yeah, what fenn said
SWPadnos: Look you lazy bastard, get you cordless screwdriver and remove the damn screws already!
Jymmm: <pedant> The XT did NOT have dual floppies </pedant>
I'm not lazy - I use a manual screwdriver
cradek: Mine did =)
they weren't standard, but were available
swp if you dont want that transformer i'll take it
four, once the spiffy new half-height ones arrived on the scene
OS on A, application on B =)
thanks, but no thanks :)
even better - boot floppy 1+2 in A+B, swap for run and data disk
and if it crashes over the weekend, no BBS until monday
(RBBS and TBBS were like that)
I spent some time following these directions: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_Install
but am getting errors. Is that link current?
Spitfire is much easier
Bronson: "As of mid-August 2005, the bdi-4 branch described on this page no longer works." -- that page
SWPadnos: FWIW, they have Spitfire for *nix now.
doesn't matter to me - I left high school many years ago
I want to recompile 4.18
I don't think anyone has a clue how to compile a recent emc1(.5) for bdi4
Bronson: 4.18 ???
you really should get a newer one..
the brain dead install version 4.18
Bronson: anything < 4.29 may be badly broken
4.20 was a first stable one, 4.30 is the current recomended one
SWPadnos: I'd love to start a BBS... FidoNet is still alive and kicking too.
Jymmm: you already got BS, get another B
Jymmm: you're approximately 10 years too late
Beaucoup BS :)
Bronson: if you can.. reinstall, or upgrade your BDI
cradek: make that 12 :P
btw, just found a 1200 bps modem today..
cradek: Nah, would work perfect for radio
about 10 pounds
Are there new instructions, or do I simply check out a different branch?
I need to be able to recompile I think
Bronson: let me look
what kind of errors do you get?
I am getting the "radius to end of arc differs from end of arc" error
that's not a bug..
probably a wrong entered value
what are you trying to do?
really this one: "radius to end of arc differs from radius to start"
his cam program is rounding wrong i bet
I have toopaths created in Mastercam with cutter comp
G2 ?, G3?
can you output the command? and the position from where it's trying to do the G3?
let me dig it up again
Bronson: it might be easier to just set the tolerance lower in your cam program
dunno why i didnt think of that last night
I have used mastercam with HAAS machines with no problems
or higher in EMC (I think there's an ini setting for that)
SWP it's a define
sorta thinng that should be an inii setting though
don't I want the cam to be more accurate?
is there any way to get the G-Code window to display what command is coming up rather than just the one it stoped at?
low tolerance = accurate
or emc to be more lenient?
but that can also make extremely large .nc files
I not really worried about nc file sizes
as long as it fits on a floppy
the compile of bdi is my current challenge
Bronson: get emc2 and fiddle with that
those are the wrrors I was asking about :)
is emc2 stable?
I read it was not ready yet
* cradek coughs
depends on what you understand under stable..
Bronson: not by a long shot
* SWPadnos shuffles his feet
does it crash?
* alex_joni had no crashes..
it really depends on the hardware you're using, and the machine
but heard of some..
it might crash your milling machine :)
does that count?
heh, I am not feeling really confident about emc2....
is anyone working on putting enable pins in stepmod?
fenn: it was chosen used to retrofit a BIG machine..
fenn: that's history
* Jymmm send the bill for replacement bits to fenn
no - Alex did that last night :)
is it possible to get the source for 4.18 that will compile?
Bronson: you might want to checkout using -rbdi_4.18
but I'm not so sure such a tag exists
ok, will give it a shot
4.18 has been working fine for me and I just need to sort out the arc error
not looking to create any new variables
I am using it with a sherline mini mill
emc2 might just work great for a sherline
will the sherline interface need modifications to work with emc2?
with project has the stable emc2?
is the trunk cool?
whats a well supported card to get at a reasonable price?
Rap2: what card?
for the computer to control the mill that is supported by linux and the mill software
Bronson: there is a bdi-4_18 tag in the tree, not sure if it's any good though.. you probably won't get any support on that
details man, details.
Rap2: servo card?
I will give emc2 a shot
Rap2: hobbycnc is pretty cheap for small steppers
I'd pick a Motenc lite
Rap2: what kind of machine are you controlling?
yea a servo card
I just don't want to be re-homing my machine alot, that is lame
the machine we have now is a Maho 500 with 4 axis
we have some ISA card, Im a newb so forgive my ignoarance
[19:28:22] <Jymmm> http://www.kstroje.cz/stroje/frezky/MAHO-MH-500-W4.jpg
Love the DRO.... http://metalworking.com/DropBox/_2004_retired_files/Maho_500M_control.jpg
emc supports servo-to-go if that's the card you have already
so does emc2 ;)
* alex_joni needs a veyron
[19:30:48] <alex_joni> http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/10/veyron06_01.jpg
alex_joni: You only get this --> http://webpages.marshall.edu/~penning3/pictures/YUGO.JPG
the veyron is a pretty impressive engineering feat
Jymmm: send it over, I'll mod it
it'll look just as cool
alex_joni you sick bastard!
alex_joni whats under the hood... 3 cyl?
if you're so lucky
usually a little chinese guy
what, not squirels?
nope.. animal rights
* alex_joni goes for his massage
well feed the animals next time
later guys :P
thanks for the help
I have emc2 running now
I am trying to run my gcode but am having trouble with the default interface now... I am in auto mode, but when I run I get "cannot be executed until eht machine is outof e-stop and turned on"
didn't need to do anything other than go to auto mode with the sherline interface
ok, a little different
it is no longer complaining about the arc!
Well shit, revert it back quick!!!
how different are the .ini files for emc and emc2?
will it take much porting to get my emc.ini ported over?
not too different, I think. the main thing is that all the hardware connections are now in .hal files (which are specified in the .ini)
doh, when I set the tool diameter I get the arc error again, it was 0.0 by default
if my gcode was generated with a .375 diam tool
I am using cutter comp
and want to make the tool smaller
do I put .367 in the tool file to describe a smaller tool diameter?
if you use a smaller number, it'll cut more off the part (ie' it'll cut closer to the line)
that's what I want
so it doesn't look like emc2 is the answer
either mastercam is wrong or emc is really picky
I think you should only be using cutter comp in *either* the CAM program *or* in emc, but not both
hmmm. mastercam has adjustments for tool and then has the option to add in G41/G42 in the gcode
I was hoping to avoid re-posting, but I can
it just seems to me that you want to compensate in one or the other place, but not both
one other point - you need a lead-in move once cutter comp. is turned on. it only takes effect on the next move after the G40/G41/G42
yeah, I have that programed
if you have cutter comp in the toolpaths, then just remove the G4x code, or set the tool radius to 0 (so that emc follows the already compensated path)
ok, I will fall back to not using cutter comp
thanks for your help
sure - I just hope it actually helps :)
Fir the fire, he can send the insurance company after SWPadnos
this is not a competition, this is only an exhibition
uh - no warrantee expressed or implied
I am not suitable for any purpose
* Jymmm exhibits his buttocks in SWPadnos' general direction
please, no wagering
you know... I REALLY need a better way to zero out my Z axis. Automagically would be nice
poof - it is done
what do you have now?
Ye old slip of paper and jog keys
btw... what is G40 ?
cutter comp off
G41 = left side, G42 = right side of path
Jymmm: in AXIS you jog down to where you want Z to be zero and hit the Offset button
cradek: I mean zeroing out the tool to the top of material (or table)
I think that's what he's talking about
yeah, that's what I mean too
move tool to top of workpiece, hit offset button
you jog down to touch and then hit Offset
I use a feeler gauge
cradek and when to you know you have touched the material?
I use a feeler gauge
he uses a feeler gauge
Right, I'm using a slip of paper... I mena a automagical way
I use a feeler gauge
he uses a feeler gauge
ok, in other words.... no user intervention.
jog down until you touch the top of the feeler gauge, pull it out, jog down its thickness
you can get an expensive tool length calibrator
Nah, I'm thinking a vertical switch
the other thing I can do is loosen the tool's set screw, jog down pushing the tool up into the holder, tighten the set screw
tool tocuhes down to the switch and that's zero
that's basically what the calibrators are
it would be neat if you could have a spot on the table that is a switch to poke with the tool
they're just usually contact probes (capacitive or the like)
cradek that's what I mean. I already found a switch that is accurate to 0.03mm
but that doesn't tell you where the work is.
I'm doing sheet stuff mostly
gotta muck around with it sometime, but I think I could get there.
cradek: Meant to ask you... you have any pics from your bmp to gcode utility?
the offset calibrators (or a switch) would still work for sheet stock, you'd just have to have a list of offsets for the different thicknesses
or reference all the G-code to the bottom of the sheet
I only made one experimental thing with it but it worked fine
Yeah, I seem to be finding more of them now, but nobody has pics
you mean a pic of something made with it?
the thing I made looked just like you would expect
a pic wouldn't tell you anything
imagine what you would see if you cut an image out with scanlines
that's what it looks like
[21:53:46] <Jymmm> http://www.imagetogcode.com/MM1.jpg
[21:53:55] <Jymmm> http://www.imagetogcode.com/gallery.htm
yeah - just like that ! :)
is that scanline or feature extraction?
those must be hand-colored
to bring out the highlights
IMO they are as much paintings as engravings
I dont think theyre painted
just one layer of stain
look at Jenny for instance
why is her skin light and her dress dark?
in all of these, the whole face is painted in
painted with what?
because they say that you shuold mil lthe piece, stain, and then lightly sand
the high spots lighten
but they obviously aren't a simple matter of milling and slapping some stain on
the satin is just for contrasting the mill work
cradek why not?
no - "sand it with very fine paper" is what they recommend
(in the quick start guide)
huh, ok, I'd believe it when I see it
Well, I'm gonna try in a few minutes... first on mdf for testing, then some popular it it turns out ok.
it's X-Y scan, with the option to also separate Z into separate moves
that's going to be a LOT of scanlines for detail like Jenny's face
cradek: Better than not at all
(or buying a laser)
which still takes forever
I've also played with feature extraction (autotrace)
I know, I took one of my photographs in and video taped it being rasterized on the laser engraver.
not what you want for photos, but maybe for line art
Well, if it takes 2 hours and can get $250 , wth.
urn boxes, etc.
cradek created body container
I bet you could get good money for that
people are peculiar about that kind of ritual
Yep, I know a company that does. They are using laser engravers and the work is FUCKING EXCEPTIONAL
check out CNC Toolkit for 5-axis stuff (assuming that not all urns are flat :) )
don't you think [recently deceased] deserves and would have wanted [expensive treatment]?
But for me... fuck it... toss me in a cardboard box and throw my ashes into the wind
or dumpster, whichever is closest
burn you in a cardboard box
there ya go.
wouldn't want to pullote :)
But... I know everyone else spends so much money on that stuff.... As they say death and taxes, an I hve competing with the IRS
but - this is capitalism - competition is good!
yes.. competition is very good :D
finally got past the stupid readline problem (dpkg --force-install ...)
now I'm missing about 6000 packages
but at least there are no broken dependencies
SWPadnos: Well, when I get my small arms, and ICBM inventory up a little, I'll consider it.
the KDE menu is exceedingly small
ok - check eBay
there have been a fighter jet and an aircraft carrier for sale - who knows what you'll find
SWPadnos: Yes, but no arms on those aircrafts
actually, this one apparently wasn't "safed"
the FBI started looking into it
SWPadnos: I need to get my ATF permit first... bastards want $50/yr
I actually know someone who knows someone who bought a MIG
imagine - $50/yr to own a $700,000,000 ship
* alex_joni sells MIG's
(jet, not welder)
I know :D
SWPadnos I dont need to own a jet or boat... the permit is just to mfg and use. (well, that's two permits)
the guy got a bit scared when he went to Russia to pick it up, and the drink farmer rides out on his tractor to meet him :)
So thats the fed, then the state, then the local gov.....
did he buy it?
did he get it into thte states?
carrying a briefcase full of rubles wasn't the safest thing to do at the time :)
I believe so - he had to take it apart somewhat for shipment (I don't think he was allowed to just fly it in)
I don't recall the details - it was the friend of the father of a friend of mine, so ...
for risk of being shot out of the sky =)
heh - yeah
"no - really, I'd just like to land. yes, I know what the transponder says"
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." -- rfc1925
similar to Howitzer rounds
about time for me to set up that anodizing line
any recommendation on which RT kernel is best?
for a BDI upgrade
I wonder if walmart plastic bins will handle sulfuric acid and KoH
SWPadnos: I am running 2.6.10-adeos and 2.6.12-magma
both pretty ok
depends on the plastic, I guess
OK - I see several -Adeos -Magma and -fusion versions listed
who knows...prob ethylene copoymers
there's a 2.6.13-fusion - know anything about that?
don't try fusion
OK - 12-magma it is :)
unless you plan to make emc/emc2 work with that..
and I really don't think you do...
although it would be nice :)
I'd just like to get some normal apps back, like konsole, for instance
(problem - joke)
things like kdevelop seem to be missing - in the database, but no available version ...
keep going, you're almost rid of KDE
heh - if only I had gnome, xfce, windowmaker, blackbox, etc installed
any one of, actually
SWPadnos: xfce might be easy to install
yeah. I'm just not sure of whatever else may be missing
that's the best way..
just install as you need them
openoffice is gone, kdevelop / qt designer / libs / headers / etc.
alex_joni has changed the topic to: "Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - Support and development of a linux based CNC control. | Home: www.linuxcnc.org | Regular Developers' meetings every Sunday 14:00-18:00 GMT | wiki up @ http://wiki.linuxcnc.org
| EMC usage map: http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller"
ok - so other than xfce and xfce-goodies, any other recommended packages for xfce?
should be enough
hmmm- I kind of like Kate for editing though - any syntax hilighting editors for xfce? (*not* vi or emacs)
that's all I use...
maybe - I don't really know it though
I saw Paul using it - man he's fast
it's nice.. ctrl-O and you got a shell
make & run
ctrl-o .. back to editing
Kate does that pretty well also - there's a terminal tab at the bottom
odd - this package list shows various kde4 things, but they're only up to 3.5 beta??
how are emc and RTAI these days regarding compilation on GCC3.x or 4?
seems 3.x is ok
seems only ;)
I think I had problems before with compiling using anything later than gcc-2.95
even when I would recompile the kernel + RTAI + emc, there would be symbol version mismatches (or something like that)
that indicates that you weren't really building with the same compiler
what icee said
I also had some trouble with the kernel actually running for long periods of time ;)
this was Gentoo, around kernel 2.6.(single digit) time
and probably adeos version 3.1
KScope looks pretty cool
up for auction... Test Equipment (19 pallets) - fuuuuuuuuuck me
heh - what's the shipping? :)
but I'll split it with you if you want
you pay, you remove.
bunch of forklisfts of all kind for auction too (all not working of course)
cradek: instead of the note you added to README, which I happen to know nobody actually READS, why not call os.path.abspath in setup.py?
jepler_: I read readmes
if the program wont compile and work on the first 7 tries ;)
cradek: which I happen to know nobody but anonimasu actually READS
Jymmm, on ebay, or elsewhere?
jepler_: I do read the README
SWPadnos: elsewhere (must be a US Citizen)
* alex_joni grins too
I am (if you count Vermont)
SWPadnos: Cool, need at least 24 hr advanced notice prior to viewing (bkgrnd chk)
eh - I've got clearance
shouldn't be a problem
(I've had clearance, that is)
how complete is kscope
SWPadnos heh, that was then, you're a commie now!
good question - it looks like they're up to stable release 1.2, so it should be functional
[23:42:51] <SWPadnos> http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=9910&PHPSESSID=5dd4dff1deb148a2570bf15584456993.
hopefully that will work
no - wait, it's a session ID
anyway - search there for KScope
yeah, and it even has graphviz integration :)
it is working.. even with the PHPSESSID
SWPadnos: I am going to try it.. tomorrow
oh screw that... thought it was a digital o'scope - bastards!
heh - it is, just for C code :)
look at halscope :P
alex_joni works thru sound card?
that's a good idea
it's not hard to access the ADC on the soundcard
just write a HAL driver for your soundcard, and voila, a slow, inaccurate PC scope
write a HAL driver for it..
does anyone know where the kate syntax hilight files reside?
ah - nm (/usr/share/apps/katepart/syntax/)
[23:52:39] <djb_rh> http://gallery.donniebarnes.com/cnc-mill
got it moved today
now I just have to figure out the best way to EMC-ify it
it's got DC servos
crap, time to go
and servo amps, it would appear
Eeeesh... just got my bits today
ordered them on the 27th. Guess I can't expect faster for $1 shipping