anyone here has tried hiwin rails ?
Jacky^... les is a fan
think that's what he uses on his machine
Yuga: I know :)
im going to buy abba
but hiwin should be nice too
as price ..
well the hiwin stuff was realy cheap
which was nice
all the rest of the stuff is REALY expencive
les... u around?
I have used the HIWIN stuff on a lot of things just because they were down the street in chicago
oh well.. guess that means u are around :)
ABBA might be very good too...just have not tried them
les... u heard any of those servo subs? ( i know it's off the topic)
what u think of them?
strong bass. Some noise from the brushes in the dc servos. I have not heard them lately though.
Yuga: have you listen it ?
wish they would get back to me with the pricing
Jacky^.. i live in south africa.. we just got adsl... what u think?
I would have removed the brushes, soldered wires, and used them as torque motors
i meant to listn the sub working ..
YUGA...make yor own!!
les... i was thinking of it... but i wouldnt realy know where to start
and that site doesnt realy give u that much detail
les: the big prob seem to be the driver..
which driver ?
I have sometimes watched (in horror) my 500 kg gantry going back and forth at 20 hz
any low inertia servo
with the right BL product
another problem is where in the world do i find a speaker with a xmax of over a inch?
cross product of field intensity B and conductor lenght L
but isnt expensive ?
Jacky^.. need them with out voice coils and magnets
not going to spend that amount of cash and strip them
use a foam plunger mechanism with no surround The gap is the port.
fome plunger down a tube?
any Xmax you want.
yeah a short tube
that's what i thought
giving all my secrets away here...
but i thought there would be some reason that they dont do that
friction eating away the foam for one
no no reason
it's just in air
another thing is how would u control the servo?
just connect it to a amp? cause i remember u saying something about connecting a servo straight to a amp?
so that's all i would need? servo/foam/amp/box?
and how would i go about designing a box?
just a sec phone
sit's and waits
this is very interesting
les is like a ledgend
think u ppl should let him hang around more :)
98 yo grandma.
called on the phone. she is just down the street.
anyway a servo motor sub is no different from any other
same Theile Small parameters are used
yes... but i wouldnt know any of the spec's
you measure them!
and calculate them
depends on servo polar moment of inertia
les... not every one designed speakers for a living
some of us just buy them
<---- for example :)
and what kind of lever you are using to transfer motion to a cone
I have a surroundless cone drawn up in autocad somewhere
box has a cone and a port right?
dont u wanna please look for them?
[00:41:35] <Yuga> http://wanderkolonie.org/servo2.htm
<--- i dont know if i like this method of moving the cone? what u think?
use no surround... with a big gap. The gap is the port!!
ok.. so the piece of foam will then move on a shaft i am guessing?
like a cerwin vega stroker?
if the brushes make a noise... y not use brushless servo's? <--- just another arb question
brushless drives are more $
high all ...
and so are the motors..
ok.. now what was a good idea?
the brushless servo idea
not using brushes
anonimasu... as far as i knew... we werent using a driver board
linear drives are MORE $$$
remember what I said...remove the brushes and make it a torque motor
didnt understand what u meant by torque motor
a motor that only travels a small part of a revolotion
can a brushless motor be connected straight to the amp?
like a stepper???
only if you use one set of poles
are we talkin' hybrid ??
btw I have run cnc machines from crown audio amps
talking about crown... i just got my new crown amp's today...
hm, torque motors are neat
i'm soooo happy :)
not a reluctance/pm hybrid.
ok thats where i was seein.. ; )
les... any luck with that diagram?
we are talking about big audio speakers that use servo motors to move cones!
I am snowed with work
les... can make that 30" speaker i always wanted :)
i am talking about the diagram for the speaker without a surround
i had a set a cerwin vega stage speakers...
oh yeah. Do I want to public disclose that? it's in my inventions notebook! haha
les... perty please
i need to make a super duper servo sub now
let me think about it
patents are worthless anyway...
my 18" speakers dont make nearly enough bass
I need to make a super duper amount of money.
wrong business les.... ; )
what 4 18's to wimpy for you?
well i play for crouds 1000+
4 X 18" arent realy that much
and i just cant affor the good... big stuff
you need some umph in your step then
let's see...about 102 dba 1 meter....2000 rms... low 130's max
for 4 18's
now put 1000+ ppl in front of that... and it's soft at the back :)
well heh bass horns...
les.. u recomended i stay away from them
yeah. too big.
made a plain old ported box
well, efficiency goes up 3 db for every doubling of drivers
and power handling too.
but when u got 4... u reald arent doubling that much
already i am giving each speaker 1kwatt
dont think they can handle much more :)
that is a lot.
it's alot.. but the speakers still actualy sound good
cheapest way: a truckload of 18's and mdf
think they can still take alittle more
les... yes... but the coolest way... servo subs :)
most expensive way: I build you a giant servo driver...that will kill things.
when u say most expencive i get scared
BTW what is tom danley asking for those things these days?
get a quote?
les.. i dont have a clue.. he doesnt wanna email me a quote.. so i am guessing it's alot
I would guess $5000 a pop or so
so the idea is to build one for less :)
fair quality 18's can be had for $100...
well the sub's i use are about 300$ each
and then the wood for the box is another 100$
yes good ones...good drivers
les... i only buy good ones :)
well i try atleast
but you can fix up a $100 18 to sound ok
not great but ok
les.. that's my problem.. i need it to sound GREAT... not OK
disco dancers are drunk anyway right?
les.. they might be... but i would know the difference
well...what are you using?
currently RCF l18p300's
[01:03:03] <Yuga> http://www.rcf.it/VediMacro.phtml?IDMacro=1618&m1=1&m2=0&m3=1_0_3
I use mccauleys, altecs, and NHT
i just heard one.. and was impressed...
but now i need to upgrade
and the only way to get more sound... less space is a servo drive
yeah dual spider...my mccauleys have that
and shorting rings
one thing i hate about the RCF's is there binding post's
Well some of that is hype...he is mass loading the thing (danley)
another thing i like about the servo drives is the realy realy realy small amp's they need :)
I think I can fiddle with cheap eminences and make them sound good if I tried
how about u fiddle with expencive rcf's...and then share the secret? :>
LF speakers are a mature science. No one really "designs" them any more. You just buy manufacturer a's cone, b's spiders, c's coil, d's magnet...
most of the stuff is from china...in all brands
well...sounds like you should really mess with servo speakers
the idea has been around forever
well i have heard about them before. but only realy started thinking about them after u told me u can hook a server straight to a amp
sooooo.. u thought about sharing your knowlage of the surroundless speaker
heh I think it is one of my better ideas. At least I hope. It is a 10 year old idea. I think I want to keep it!
I ended up working late today
you often work very late!
ended up in a mailconvo with australia..
but...yuga...if you want to buy a bunch of recone kits....some low inertia servos... and some belts.. that you can do
now I got referred to uk so I need to sleep..
run four cones from one servo
how would u go about running 4 cones?
same way danly does.
pushrods or belts
how does danly do it?
belts now...earlier he used pushrods. He even tried timing belts, but that was bogus.
i am guessing u would recomend the belt way?
belts are linear
pushrods are not
which u recomend?
cone displacement/motor angular displacement is not constant
well...an old engineering saying..."don't push on ropes"
ok... so that means u like pushrods
I would first look at polar moment of inertia of the servo
convert it to TS network values
and see what Ineeded
<les> I would first look at polar moment of inertia of the servo <--- re explain that for some one who is realy stupid now, and isnt that good in english?
it is a rotational equivalent of cone mass
in this case
it is kind of a measure of "flywheel effect"
it effects the TS parameters Fs, Qes, Qms a bunch
a dc srvo is just a voice coil that goes round
and... polar moment of inertia would very strongly effect efficiency
lower is better
hey les, sounds like one needs to hook the starter motor up to the trunk lid via the tire iron and have a real thumper!
gosh.. this sound's like lot's of math's i dont understand again
the trick is to get it low enough that you can cross over at say 80 hz or so
i can build stuff... the math's get's me in the groin thou
yeah hunt up the original theile small paper..a lot of math.
tell you what... if you want to build a servo speaker...as time permits I can do the math.
you can make one for yourselfbut not sell it...it's patented
not a problem
i hate other ppl having what i have :)
hence the reason i bought RCF speakers.. had to actualy import them :)
same with thr crown amp's
and my cd players :)
of course you can even have feedback withthe things
it might all be comon stuff where u are from.. but here it's like gold :)
but almost all people are not conditioned to the super clean sound of motional feedback
so they don't like it
when u say "servo speaker" i hope u are meaning one BIG ASS dB rating?
people like a bit of second and third harmonic distortion
no, I mean with an encoder
just like cnc
This is actualy quite exciting... even more exciting than building a cnc machine :)
just ignore me.. sound if kinda what i live for
it's the same thing really. Same math.
that's like a closed loop speaker..
50hz will be 50hz ;)
les.. what kinda hz u think it should be able to reach?
but I did many double blind tests with such things
i have read of some going to 150hz
with a servo motor...80 would be doing good.
thought 150 was alittle bit of wishfull thinking on there behalf
fourth order Linkowitz Reilly
or third order Butterworth
no o in linkwitz
kzan isn't leaving...
Trying to get lm-sensors to work on this damn MSI K7T board...
until I bore her to death.
THis is K`zan on the development box
I'll let you know if you get vboring :)
my ex wives did that already.
anyway Linkwitz-Reilly is better at middle to high frequencies...it doesn't "wink down" in the crossover region
third order butterworth is still kinda nice at 80 hz
no winking due to the long wavelength
les.. what size drivers u recon would be best? and how many?
for servo drive?
18 recone kits. 4. one per side.
i mean "yep!"
what about the foam idea?
danly uses passive too...I am not fond of them.
and another thing with usign recone kit's... where in the world am i going to find something with 1" of travle?
I like the foam idea. I ain't gonna talk about it no more.:)
unless you want to start a company.
do me a fav and send me a pm
wanna c if it is actualy working today
it's just an idea.
the math works though.
well i am totaly interested
wanna be the next RCF?
wanna kick the shit into them :)
dont wanna be the same as the rest... have to kill the compeditors
rayh-away is now known as rayh
who's good'er than me with derivetives???
in what context?
mounting the base was a PITA!
dmess I used to be good anyway.
give me a function to differentiate
no products now!
I'd hate to crack a book.
les 1 + 1 /1 * 1 ^ 1
E = mc^2
m o u s e
never thought drilling/countersonking four holes would take all day
aw, anything takes all day
well, it shouldn't
dr2/dd2= uh.... 4RD
but had to get the board aligned with the machine first
the cow goes moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
ha! top that!
congo is going meoooooooooooooooooooooow
screw the cat, what about the chicken?
unless congo is the name of the chicken
the chicken is roosting in a tree...it's dark here
must be a low tree
pretty high really
it can fly well
yeah. Small bantam chicken. Low reynold's number.
I know nothing of chickens =)
les What do you think of using a keyless jacobs chuck instead of a collet for small shanks? 1/8" or less?
no keyless chuck on routers!
what about keyed ?
centripedal accel will open the jaws
not made for high rpm
alright (damnit), I'll order the 1/4" to 1/8" collet adapter then
or have someone make you a toolholder
like the ones on my site
dont they use set screws to hold the bit?
yeah...with a balance hole opposite
I think I'll order the collet adapter for now. Sounds like something I'd screw up! lol
some balance out just by using a recessed set screw too
the alignment part
yeah...boring a 1/8 hole to .0005 concentricity is hard
hell aligning a board on the table took me forever
but I only have to do it once
For theColombo I got 1/8, 1/4, 1/2
will hold up to 1"
Yeah, Bosch doens't make 1/8" collets
just a 1/4 to 1/8 sleeve
[03:19:22] <Jymmm> http://www.routerbitworld.com/product_info.php?products_id=20827
[03:20:08] <Jymmm> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TRAW.01-A2N6NO8W19JCUN._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg
Mine is the Sears branded version of this: http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/bosch1617EVSrtr.html
I was showing someone my.01 diameter router bits...they freaked out
whee do you get those from?
excellon I think
tool bit city has down to .o2 way cheap
hmmm... I need 1/16" and 1/32" downcut bits
[03:24:13] <les> http://www.drillbitcity.com/
are their resharpened bits any good?
I used to drive by their place every day on the way to work
yeah...they are fine
you'll break em before they grt dull again
usually what kills you is the shipping
and when you break them... sharpen them down to a point with a green wheel and make scriber tips!
you know...for scribing lines in metal
manually, not cnc wise
ok, for a sec there I thought you meant scribing like on the surface of glass
I'm real leary of doing any glass right now... too much glass dust in the air
I have bad luck with cutting glass
the little wheel thing and kerosene...
my aunt has done stained glass for years - all by hand and she's very good.
always breaks the wrong way
I guess I could learn that from her
Seems like people that can do that are kinda relaxed
they just casually grab it with pliers and it pops right on the line
heh... I've seen her snap some narroe stuff... no problem.
it always shatters with me.
I get all up tight and analyze it...then break it into a thousand pieces
yeah, I have yet to snap plastic EXACTLY on the line yet.
and I SERIOUSLY score it deep too
always the ---------------------\________________
I give up i cut it on the bandsaw
CNC that shit!
dont care if it's fater by scoring it!!!
acryilic is nasty
I always tended to score ones that were fatter
well if you really score...sure it will fatter
do the ring colors represent anything? http://www.drillbitcity.com/catalogue/images/products/304-RHobbyKit.jpg
yeah some kind of color code. I never bothered to figure it out. It looks pretty.
lol @ les fatter joke (just got it)
$20 for that set (resharpened)
I have bought many bits from them
all seemed fine
is there a significant difference between the L298 and L298N ?
The reason they break is usually because wood router collets have a lot of runout
K`zan what does the datasheet say?
L298 is listes as a motor controller and the N version say stepper motor controller.
Jymmm: Looks like I am going to have to print out both and go through them line by line :-/.
I think 298n has diodes built in to the step coils?
theres an N p hn
isn't the N a package difference?
like N is powerSOIC, where H/V are the staggered TO-220 style package
I looked at two different datasheets, can't see it in either (bastards)
l298N == multiwatt vertical
l298hn = multiwatt horizintal
yeah I looked too
n is multiwatt package that's all
which means what? (retorical question)
nothing...it's just a name
and a shape
les another toy for ya... http://www.drillbitcity.com/catalogue/product_detail.asp?Tg=302-RepointMachine
ha! you know where those guys are? Plwaukee airport north of chicago. I took some aerobatic lessons there.
there ya go.... fly in, get a new toy, fly back... and log more hours
well we flew out...went west...pulled g.
i've got a cheap porter-cable air compressor that recently started overheating.. any ideas?
oil lube or oilless?
i oiled it with some air tool oil and it still overheats
seal gone bad?
you open the valve cock every night?
I have been tld the oil less don't last too long
probably full of water and rust!
so the seals go bad and then it just swooshes air around instead of pumping it?
5 gallons worth =)
I am sold on old type cylinder comressors
me too.. i should probably just get one
I have had one running for 20 years
fenn do you REALLY drain it after each use?
Jymmm: yes i REALLY do
I use a weep valve
heh, ok. you sounded like you were being a smartass
or...just wait..the tank will rot...automatic weep valve
$4 not too shabby https://www.drillbitcity.com/catalogue/product_detail.asp?Tg=900-Special
yeah...ok deal. the skinny ones break real easily. It is really a 4 piece scriber tip set
I was thinking for PCB maybe
that is what they were made for
in a 60,000 rpm westwind air bearing spindle
hey! leave my 25k rpm alone now, ya hear!
I guess if I am going to do it, I build the HV board as the normal one prints off the paper. Maybe there is a way to just get the copper out of eagle.
[04:10:38] <K`zan> http://www.pminmo.com/l297-8/l297-8.htm
The HV one prints centered on the page, so no problems with cutoff.
wish I could give you my protel seat...I never use it.
it hurts my brain.
:-) No problem, only person that would use it is me then :). REason I got eagle (freebie at the moment) is because so many people use it.
corp sent me the seat for a job.
$12k (for them)
Bloody decent of them, but Imo a big waste of $$$ unless you REALLY need it.
well I did one board.
Ah, so that is how one turns on and off layers in eagle. Now to figure out how the labels relate :-).\
Must have been complex as hell to need that.
no it was simple.
Clueless management with more $$$ than brains...
100,000 sales now on the product
Amazing what you can do with something like gschem for FREE :-).
gschem / PCB
technicsally they own the seat though.
Or a block of them if they can give them away.
But yes, it is theirs.
Surprised they didn't want it back when you were done :)
protel requires remembering too much. Bad for seldom use.
wtf.... board outline runs all over the copper....
Fine for motherboards or something.
Yeah, I do 50-100 of those a year now ;-)
I must have hosed the file someway in putzing, time to delete it and get it again.
I remember when I did boards with fingernail polish and ferric chloride
aka really strong geritol
I had a summer job in school etching ic leadframes and such
once I pumped ferric cloride into a mislablelled waste ferric drum
it was in fact half full of potassium fericyanide
made 50 gallons of prussian blue...ferric ferricyanide!
it was blue and gooey
boss got mad but I didn't mislable the drum
LOL, that goes back a LONG ways, fingernail polish...
So much to learn.
Wonder what the advantage / disadvantae to making the HV version over the regular one really is as far as I am concerned.
and the ever popular ironing on xerox copy toner
Worked though and was a lot cheaper than a resist pen :).
I have never gotten that to work worth a damn, always spotty with voids, etc.
me to always broke down in the ferric
Maybe that copier toner works better than laserjet toner as you sure hear a lot about people doing it.
Of course you never see the boards :).
going to have to corner cradek and see what he has to say about the two versions...
I don't know...I went from that to ic photolithography at intersil
that worked a bit better...sometimes
So far prices on almost all the big parts for this are about $50 (4channels worth).
I should have most of the rest.
Got to drag out the film and print the artwork.
laser toner is so thin, really need to see about some real drafing film. Exposure is VERY short using that. Worked out a little better on the inkjet though.
photolithography - essentially the mask/etch process like I use to do PCBs with, but a lot more togetherr :-)?
have done plenty of that. My heater product is screen printed using pcb stuff. it is additive though. Polymer thick film.
heater product ?
photolithography...back when I did that we could do 2 micron lines and spaces..crude now.
les any way of that being allied manually (by hand) ?
Could use one here :-) 62F and now that I am using the LCD display, the big 19" crt heater contributes nothing useful :)
you know the heaters on side mirrors on cars?
to remove ice and mist?
Jymmm: you need a teensy-tiny brush, a good magnifier and a very steady hand ;-)
K`zan I got a cnc machine, will mount a brush to it =)
Heard of 'em I use the old fashioned method, I stay away from cold climes :).
Jymmm: That would work :-).
I think I am going to use a 1/4-20 for my first lead screw...
Jerk around with the bolt - use two with a spring in between, will be interesting.
Goody, I can get milling stuff the same place I get my PCB drill bits from !
I buy from them
anyway, I used pcb technology to make some of those car mirror heaters
Just heat up the traces ?
thick film resisters
Ah, makes more sense
actually I invented it.
let's see...just a sec...
no, *I* invented it, you just stole my idea!
[04:47:42] <les> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=watts.INZZ.&s2=Leslie.INZZ.&OS=IN/watts+AND+IN/Leslie&RS=IN/watts+AND+IN/Leslie
bring in the clowns errr lawyers :-)
all those were my ideas he stole!
many law suits over this in fact
yes. stole em from jymmm
HA! thats all the lawyers needed was you to admit it! WE HAVE IT LOGGED NOW!
Good old windy city, my sympathy :-)
I am listed as living in elmhurst at that time
elmhurst was ok
Ever make it to the Lizadro (sp?)
nice wholesome midwest town. good fourth of july parades
no I don't think
Elmhurst was ok and even had a nice hobby shop, but lots of the most gawd awful greasy pizza :).
les nice eye candy?
Used to go skating down at the park in the winter :-).
Beats hell out of slumburg, to be sure.
Almost 10 years of chitown was quite ENOUGH.
For me it was soccer for kids. parades. Working on the side mirror heat concept.
I swore that was the most corrupt place on the planet short of going to a particularly bad third world country...
Also, I literally worked myself into the hospital with that invention.
Then I moved to seattle, chicago is a much less corrupt place.
les um.... dont do that!
It took me 3 years to get a sale on that product...and I spent a very great deal of the corporation's money.
finally they cut me off.
then I got the sale.
they cut me on again.
now, 15 years later...
we ended up selling a few.
yeah, a few million
0.5 billion about
so I get protel free I guess.
hi candidate chris
and the only one so far, it looks like
who's stepping down?
well you can just be emc dictator.
both of them?
matt wants to sell houses. Paul wants to do RTAI
is jmk staying?
haven't heard from him lately
yeah I guess
cradek: Got some time to dispell some ignorance ?
K`zan: I'll try
Ok, thanks much!
Current line of advance pertains to those drivers you pointed me at and I think you use. Two versions - HV and !HV...
when I built mine, the HV version was not available
For me :-) is there any advantage to going with the HV board? It seems that the !HV one should do just fine...
what high voltage do you intend to use for the motors?
you can use up to 42? 45? I think with L298
I am using a regulated 40
I envision 24V BUT that might change with the eventual addition of the Taig, but these things are stone simple to build...
the problem is that a 7805 is pretty bad when you give it much over about 9V in.
they get hot, etc
Familiar with that.
even for 24v, you might want to consider the HV version, or use a separate logic supply (which is what I did)
if you're going to use my breakout board, you will want the normal version, and just leave the regulators off
Not that much more expensive to just go ahead and do the HV one, I just don't know how it will work with my playtoy steppers...
then the regulators go on the breakout board which hooks to a separate logic supply.
I will need the breakout board with those anyway, won't I?
yes, or something else like it
the whole setup works really well for me
Someone mentioned that with my playtoy steppers, if I got the HobbyCNC driver I'd have to change the sense resistors...
yeah, that was me
I think you said the hobbycnc driver would only go down to .5A as it comes
Not sure if that will also affect homebrew boards...
you might want to look at the L297 datasheet
Yes, sorrry I forgot, been doing way too much reading and searching, getting a bit frazzled :).
it's hard to plan a whole project 100% before starting. I am terrible at that
OK, will look that over. Futurelec has excellent prices on the 298 and 297
About half the price of Digikey.
I think I paid nearly $100 for parts for all four axes, and the 297/298 were the bulk of it
maybe I got screwed
So far, less the regulators, 4 each of the 297/298 and 50 diodes I am at about $50.
I may use the 298 onthat higher torque tester Iwas asked about tody
cool, that's nice and affordable (assuming you can do the rest)
don't forget the pcb mount DB25, lots of 7805s, etc
heat sinks maybe
Def heat sinks :-). If not immediately then for sure later when things start getting serious :-).
and remember the little pcb mount potentiometers for current adjustment
(just recalling what I couldn't find in my junkbox)
Busily filling out the parts list with "got" and "order" in an OO spreadsheet :).
I think I had to order the 7405s (schmitt triggers)
Will post the list when I get done.
Digikey is not cheap, but they DO have it.
you could use 7404 in a pinch but it's good to have schmitt trigger inputs.
err break time LOL
doesn't it call for 05? I forget
it's been a while
can a SSR be driven directly by paraport?
WOW... I scared everyone off on that question! heh
cradek: This is the one? http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM317HV.html
Just asked natsemi for 5 samples :).
Cost per axis:$13.77
less resistors headers and screw connectors...
so far :-).
good moorning emc !!!
Heh. natsemi wants more than what digikey charges for samples, significantly more...
National isn't equipped well to sell single units of things.
They only do it for things distributors like digikey won't stock
nessus leave the gpl
jacky: yah, how dare they not keep developing crap for you for nothing
i'm going to remove this crap from my Debian :P
*shrug* all the existing code remains under the GPL
nmap is better
just the company that makes it is saying "we're not giving away code for free anymore"
nmap doesn't even do the things that nessus does :P
a little better ..
its all the same ..
business $$$$$ and nothing more
yah. how dare people try and make a living
I mean, they gave away code for free for years and it ended up not working out for them
software is not a material ..
are very very bad people for not giving away for free anything new they write
peoples wont understand
pc software and programs should be freeeeee
And should books, too? They're just bits after all
i can buy food
otherwise the world will be a jail
software must be FREE !
a lot of peoples dont have money to buy that
And how are all the software engineers supposed to make a living?
icee: you say the same as I do..
I think software is going to settle down like other engineering industries
many components will be standardized/open
but there will be lots of room for proprietary products too
icee: i repeat .. you cant touch the software
you can seel hardware
Jacky^: it's quite simple if software engineers do not get paid they have no food.
jacky: so all software gets written by hobbyists, then?
lets see ..
or by hardware companies as a value add?
anonimasu: its ok
but not for an open sorce,, as nessus was born
Jacky^: are you being stupid? , YOU/I/whatever needs to make money for a living.
anonimasu: not in that way
Jacky^: yes exactly in that way..
i cant sell you smog
nessus was written by a guy named renaud deraison
he started a company called tenable that has written > 99.9% of the code
Jacky^: No, but you can sell me stuff you've developed to provide your family with food
anonimasu: not with the software
Now all he's said is "Uh, we're not releasing any of our changes to the rest of the world anymore, because the rest of the world hasn't been helping us"
i cant providing food for my family as you mean
Jacky^: How are the developers going to get paid?
I guess you should think he should have to continue to work for free and give away the stuff he writes forever
its an abstract
So? It still takes people to create it
Jacky^: time costs havent you learned that yet?
why irc is free for all ?
what if you tomorrow start to pay for it ?
jacky: Because some people feel like giving away resources to start servers
peoples need the food ..
I don't think they're -obligated- to because they have in the past
because irc is a insignificant thing in this matter..
or not ?
irc should be for all ?
jacky: You have no right to demand that other people give away their work for nothing.
Jacky^: how many people that works full time with irc servers..
jacky: What do you do for a living?
icee: the work for nothing as bill does..
jacky: Want to say something that makes sense?
using the basic codes of other peoples
and univerity guys ..
it seem to you right ?
nessus was bor free
jacky: Almost all of the code was written by three people who work for Tenable.
jacky: You're saying those people are being bad by not giving you any more code free.
Hey, the existing code is under the GPL; maybe -you- should go maintain it and add features.
They have no obligation to do it for you.
Jacky^: obviously you have no clue about developing large scale projects, how much money research & development costs..
icee.. there are many ways to make money ..
not in software engineering..
not closing the source code
jacky: But they tried that, and they're not making money.
jacky: Do they ahve to try forever?
this is not america ..
and many peoples cant buy the software
Jacky^: You should start living in the real world..
as in many other countries
well.. they will use cracked softw
Jacky^: If I started to give away the sourcecode off the machine control at work..
and i agreed
the competitors would steal it in 0.5 secs.
and copy the machines we sell.
Jacky^: How many hours do you think I've spent developing that stuff?
anonimasu: i'm a developer too
Jacky^: and how many 10k's do you think it's cost the company to keep me developing it?
i know what it mean ..
When I founded my company, we spent >$10M building enterprise software
money that would never have been spent if we couldn't sell the actual software
and giving things away free effectively bars selling them
selling support or whatever doesn't make it up
Jacky^: so where do you think the revenue should come from?
we also gave away stuff free-- when it wasn't fundamental to our competitive advantage and it made sense to us to
anonimasu: a donation would be ok
donations doesn't pay us back $10M
but the software should be free
give me food
Jacky^: Who donates that ammount of cash?
and i will pay for it
i cant pay the smog i cant touch it
i cant pay to learn to speak english
you cant pay to speak
open your mind ..
jacky: I just know that I spent $10M and gave 100 people jobs
and that if i couldn't sell my software, i wouldn't have been able to do it.
and search an alternative way to make business
icee: bad ..
Jacky^: There are no alternative ways of developing software...
well, there -are- alternative ways, but not all business models are viable in all spaces
anonimasu: there are an alternative way to comunicate other than speak talk ?
as the monkey ?
Jacky^: if I cant make a living off what I do, why would I do it?
then try to talk to me like the monkey
let see what happen ..
sure I love developing but it dosent feed me..
* Jacky^ grrr
Jacky^: I guess we should stop developing software at all.. and leave the programmers that work for free to develop..
software is like a language
language is free
Jacky^: Are books free?
there you have it..
some peoples died for it
ie for the bibles
to translate it in english then divulgate it ..
think a little about it ..
Jacky^: it's not the language it's what's written with it that matters..
jacky: if I write a book about machine control, should you be able to get a copy of the contents free?
* Jacky^ tired ..
The whole reason why I might write a book is because I assume people will buy it
then .. all peoples that release his software for free is stupid
No, I've said the opposite throughout this.
Like my company released software free-- where it didn't relate to our competitive advantage
and there's reasons why many companies might choose to collaborate together on frameworks/infrastructure and make them open
And hey, if someone wants to hack on something themselves and give it away free, good for them.
I just don't think I'm entitled to the fruits of other peoples' labor
it's not black and white everything free software is a great thing, but if there are so many developers to make it that way why dosent we have a team of several thousands of developers working on emc..
the world can change if we want
and can be better
not in this way
I should stop working with software and take up engineering.
i cant understand why peoples
spent a lot of money for a soccer player ..
youve no idea
its right ?
dont seem to me
If a team has the money and wants to hire a soccer player for a lot of money, it's their right to.
It's not your right to tell them how to spend their money.
any more than it's my right to say what you should do with yours.
maybe you just think because they have a lot of money that you do have the right to.
im just thinking a lot of peoples that need food ..
withous an house..
Money is only worth something because people think it can be traded for other peoples' efforts at a certain value.
If you take it away and give it to person B, you've diluted its value to person A
there's no free lunch where suddenly a ton more people get fed.
when maradone take 1.000.000.000 of euro to came in tv in a show in italy ..
for 1 hour
thats why cant work
I don't think anyone has spent $1B euro for 1 hr
you think bad ..
Jacky^: even if the people made less money it wouldnt really help the people starving
and lots of specialized software problems, like the random signal filtering stuff in modern DGPSes.. -is- causing more food to be made and more people to be fed
but if companies like Garmin and Trimble couldn't make that money back, they would have never developed that software
the software was free
actually it's true..
that why actually its wrong
Jacky^: what do you call the firmware inside of the GPS's
anonimasu: you wont understand ..
why would millions of dollars be spent developing the algorithms and implementations if not to make the money back?
i want to pay the gps
not the software
yah, but why would you buy the Garmin GPS
when the $70 chinese GPS can do the same things?
Uh, duhh, the gps hardware is completely useless without the soft/firmware and vice versa
Jacky^: explain it to me..
K`zan: yeah :)
kzan: most manufacturers don't have an implementation of 10cm GPS
i cant speak without my voice
kzan: Garmin and Trimble do, and they are able to charge a large premium for it
K`zan: but the hardware is cheap to develop while good algorithms takes lots of research
should i pay to do it ?
No, you should do it yourself
why do not pay ?
jacky: uh, because it's your voice. It's not -my- labor
Too easy, those that just buy don't appreciate...
kz: I don't think it's really realistic to expect farmers to implement their own DGPS
to steer their tractors with
Too bad, then find another way to do it.
THey did for eons...
kz: well, computer controlled seeding has increased crop yields significantly
kz: so Garmin, etc being able to extract money from their investments in algorithmics and software has indirectly fed a lot more people.
they bought the sky
they have a patence
Jacky^: I am sure you could implement a opensource dgps firmware..
as i learned thete 2 words in english
all is possible
if is free
Jacky^: but since you said you copy code off universities, do you write any orginal code?
what you mean ?
jacky: do you write software yourself?
I mean do you develop any orginal algorithms
or do you depend on other people to pay for them..
icee: sometime, sure
Jacky^: even if stuff comes from a university it's been paid for..
jacky: and I assume you polish it all nicely up, and document it, and release it all as open source
since software should be free, and it's your obligation to do so
open source its only a word ..
the much important thing is what is under
you're dodging the question.
the stuff you write-- do you do the necessary polishing in order to get it to be a nice product that other people can use, and then give it away free yourself?
the question make no sense
jacky: You're mad at the people at tenable for not doing it anymore-- my question is, do you do it?
* fenn thinks much more free software would get written if the coders spent less time arguing
how you know the stuff i write are not interesting for other peolpes ?
fenn: that's entirely true
jacky: You're saying all software should be free. You write stuff; do you release it free?
and do you do the necessary work so it is usable for other people?
jacky: example, please?
where's something nontrivial that you've released openly
i f you want i can send to you a cdrom
nope, it should be up on the net, for all to see
with a database i used in the 99
it should be FREE, not just available to me by virtue of knowing you
in my job
and a lot of peoples is using it
18.000 row codes in delphi
are you interesting ?
jacky: To be honest, you can't understand enough of what I say to have a meaningful conversation
I've been trying to ask you the same question for the last dozen lines and it just doesn't work
so I'm outta here.
i want to release hal for integrator in it for free
Jacky^: why dont you?
but for you i will ask $ 1000
just for you ..
Jacky^: Why dont you just release it then?
anonimasu: working on it ..
youll see soon
thats not a prob
Jacky^: how do you make a living?
you should know
i'm the peolpe
that sended 200 euro
in donation to Debian devepolers
Jacky^: and why would knowing that interest me?
and when i enered here the first time ..
i asked for donation ..
i0ve the log files
if you wont believe me
this.. say all
you wont understand !
and I've donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to things I find worthwhile.
you want to do a business with software
* fenn wonders what everyone needs all this money for anyway
fenn: whan i use emc
i know all the work the developers has maded
im not a stupid..
but, food really isn't that expensive
it is ..
fenn: food + rent adds up pretty well..
not for me
ive 12 cats
also if you need a car to go to work..
i spent up to E. 80 for cat food ..
well.. you need a car to go to work, and need to work to pay for your car...
but not for all peoples
depends on your car, but it all adds up in the end..
i'm coasting on about $3000 usd/year right now
I dont think that would be possible here
Enough being the devils advocate tonight :-). Night all catch ya later today.
why do not they produce a hydrogen car ?
heh sleep well K`zan
that's about as much as I spend on gas in a year..
anonimasu: i'm happy
texas need you
Jacky^: start making sense..
although that's only work travel..
anonimasu: you cold spent a lot smallest
someone have a big intereting on you
you know ?
Jacky^: I cant really tell customers that I'll come by bile tomorrow
why bike ?
i'm talking abot car
you know a lot of hydrogen cars have been designed ?
ready to use
you pay for gas
where do I buy hydrogen in north sweden?
so.. understand the problem
it's 4000km to the closest station.. that'll sell hydrogen..
why is hydrogen better than gasoline?
thats why the war is wrong
because its an oil war !
just for it
fenn: because the air becomes cleaner with hydrogen..
and we all know ..
fenn: but it adds up the same since hydrogen costs more to produce in the same ammount ;)
oil move the world
Jacky^: you can run a car on partially burned wood
but nobody does it
fenn: hydrogen is okay
but someone dont wont it ..
I need to have lunch
and do some work :)
"work work work" that's all they say around here :)
yes, work !
you know how many medicines we have in IT ?
you know how many are needed ?
think about ..
i bet there are quite a few policemen, lawyers, bean counters and paper-pushers that aren't needed either
i gave up on earth a while ago
i mean, i no longer plan my life according to the rules of modern society
* Jacky^ nods
i feel that most of the subsidized, unnecessary professions will die off naturally once things get rough again
i'd like to meet that head-on by going into space, which is about as rough as it gets
rather than waiting around for things to get rough here on earth
but i have to deal with my fundamental weaknesses and delusions..
living a life with no compromises is hard
but nobody ever tells you that you're doing the right thing
i wish that we could come together somehow, in a way that is more meaningful than the internet
there are so few people willing to work for no pay
on things that really mean something
if a whole bunch of devoted, intelligent people could come together to work on a project that has lasting impact on the entire human race..
well, it would be something
linux is pretty amazing, but it is only bits of information
its a good start point..
yeah we've learned a lot about self-organizing teamwork by working on linux
i've recently gotten involved in a community metal shop
members will pay about $12 per month for access to woodworking, machining, and welding tools
only problem is we gotta build it first :)
but we own the land already.. it's coming along really fast
i am always on the wrong time zone.. staying up until 6 am and waking up at 4 pm
so i've missed all of the work days so far
i think a big problem will be getting the building approved by the city planning board
there are so many stupid building codes that have to be followed
i think it would be better to just build it how we want it, and then fix whatever they notice is wrong
yeah, good idea
my house has been under inspection by the city for 8 months now
i'm about ready to blow some stuff up
my room is bare concrete
i sleep in a tent in the back yard
there are mattresses all over my shop!
hope youll solve soon
either that or i'll run away to the woods
it's still up in the air
no wonder i can't get anything done, eh?
still haven't used my new lathe
well.. enough whining for tonight at least
are there any like-minded people in your home town?
here its small city
about 18k peoples
but its a nice place, only 200 mt from sea
there are strange peoples here too ..
i just found this page.. pictures from where i live: http://rick.oacea.com/index.php?category=events&name=july4-02
i know most of the people in the pictures
must go ..
morning and afternoonall
i am having proiblems with the unloading of the realtime modules and the emc.run skript after launching it via rox-filer and not from shellprompt
the app doesnt catch a ^c and so doesnot do the Cleanup function
any hints on how i can force the (fast) unload and killing of all emc2 parts ?
do you know how to get an inlay like that: http://criscri.supereva.it/SCATOLA%20INTARSIO.jpg
it is driving me crazy :\
not the photos, just the box
Jacky^: Yes, bloos, sweat, and tears.
nice eh ?
yes, but too dark for my taste. I'd like to see more contrast.
some cad/cam has inlay features
it shoud be not difficult ..
it seem.. :(
ive 3 type of wood here
one is clean
another is black !
and another goes to red color
the difficult i found is in the rounded borde
haven't gotten there yet myself =)
Can SSR (Solid State Relays) be driven directly from the paraport?
that depends on the current draw..
with a transistor sure
why not ?
Jymmm: take the amp meter
a small transitor could be nice
most parallel ports can't do 23mA.
what about using a hex inverter?
NPN Transistor: BC547A or 2N2222A
Jacky^ I dont want to use Q's
why not ?
Jymmm: buy optocouplers..
and hook your relays up by them..
although the pricetag is probably wrong
what about a hex inverter?
never heard about htat..
I think most logic families can drive LEDs directly, so maybe you can get away with this
The circuit show below describes how to control a solid state relay from PC parallel port. The solid state relay controls the mains voltage.
Jymmm: take a look
Jacky^ I do NOT want to use a transisor.
Jymmm: understood.. sorry
Now, this is interesting... ULN203
[19:34:33] <Jymmm> http://www.allegromicro.com/sf/2801/
Jymmm: do you mean you don't want to use a TO-3 or similar package?
there are lots of transistor arrays in DIP or SMD
ah well, look inside of it and you'll find transistors ;)
cradek: correct. I'd like to have multiple channels available
the uln chips works good
it be awesome if I could find the uln in a opto configuration
oh hell... being doscontinued
that means there are better stuff out there
yeah, I'll just have to give them a call to see what the replacement is
do they make opto's in a dip pkg where there's more than one per pkg?
most likely yes
not bad... $0.65/ea in single qty - different brand ST Micro Electronics
search newark.com for 07WX8336 (their P/N)
can parallel outputs for more current - cool
[19:45:51] <Jymmm> http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/1536.pdf
the ULNs are cool, but who wants a unipolar drive?
[20:01:26] <icee> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005101204392786&item=10-2210&catname=
and local too
and brake, yah.
seems too good to be true
I trust them, I've been there lots of times
what makes a servo "AC"?
(I'm sure that's a dumb question)
not to me
I also want to know how do you drive these
* cradek looks around for les
you should buy a half dozen of them right now, then sort out the details
[20:05:57] <jepler> http://www.electricmotors.machinedesign.com/guiEdits/Content/bdeee4a/bdeee4a_3.aspx
jepler: I believe it's the shape of the waveform of the back EMF
that's one thing I need to look into
jepler: brushes ;)
I'm here chris
I understand that you drive an AC servo with an analog signal and you get feedback by the computer reading a counter run by the encoder
what I don't know is what the signal looks like that actually drives the motor
is it pwm? ac? dc?
The definition varies depending on the manufacturer
say the machine commands .5 - what does the motor see?
in some cases it is a 3 phase induction motor driven by a pwm sinusoidal 3 phase signal
of course those slip
this motor says: AC brushless servo motor ... synchronous motor ... permanent magnet rotor, wound stator
in others it is more like just elecronic commutation
I would say that is basically a glorified stepper
a stepper can certainly be an "ac servo"
got a link?
[20:29:40] <cradek> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005101204392786&item=10-2210&catname=
I'm just wondering what the simplest possible driver for a motor like this would be
ok .got it. That is simply a 3 phase syncronous motor. Not unlike a "slow syn" or some steppers
ok, how thick are they? Available stock thickness 4/4 5/4 6/4 8/4 12/4 16/4 random widths and random lengths rough stock
Drivers are always problematic because of the myriad of feedback techniques
so it has three coils, and you give it sine waves of 120 degree phases
"built in encoder"
that sounds ... not so simple
that could be anything
Chris you will have to find a manufacturer's data sheet on it. There is insufficient data there to tell how to use it.
price is real good...i'll say that
Surplus Center is here in Lincoln
yeah I buy from them
les what you think of Pressure Sensitive Veneer - (Peel N' Stick)
All of the P3 motors can operate to 4500 r.p.m., include a built-in 2000 line "wire-saving" optical encoder
The compact and medium-inertia P5 brushless servo motors are available in two sizes: the 200 watt size with NEMA 23 mounting and the 1kW size with NEMA 34 mounting. All P5 motors can operate to 4500 r.p.m., include a built-in 2000 line "wire-saving" optical encoder, and have optional 24 VDC spring-set holding brakes. The P5 motors have connectorized leadwires, shaft seals, and an IP-55 environmental rating.
well that is a P5
huh, they could be a bolt-in replacement for the NEMA23 steppers on my mill
sounds like a high frequency vfd with encoder feedback and pi or pid loop would be in order
variable frequency drive
Variable Frequency Drive aka Speed Control
yeah vacuum flourescent too;)
heh I just ordered one yesterday...a mere $620
for a light bulb?
can you say SUCKER!
haw for a colombo.....
if you can read japanese .. http://sanyodb.colle.co.jp/pdf/seihin/p5motors_j.pdf
les : =)
i -can- read japanese, very slowly, with a kanji dictionary
* Jymmm can too.... Toyota, Nissan, MITSUBISHI, Hyunda, etc
though most of the units are in the latin alphabet there, so it's not so bad
better google "driver sanyo denki P5"
wow, this pdf renders majorly slow on my machine.
bingo on the search
time to print it and go see
ok looks like we have a cheap motor expensive driver thing here
oh well better that expensive motor expensive driver
les: thanks for your help
well, I can build a driver *shrug*
how much expensive ?
[20:46:57] <les> http://www.motiononline.com/home.htm?overview_pv_sercos.htm&2
double of dc servos drive ?
but they are nice motors
hmm. this data sheet doesn't cover the 1KW one
or i'm not seeing it
ice what wattage?
21:14 < icee> hmm. this data sheet doesn't cover the 1KW one
42 GIGAWATTS FOR YOUR LISTENING PLEASURE
who need to work on metal.. hard metal !
Hi all, what's up ?
icee:where do you see the price of thoose?
what kind of servo amps can drive those ?
anonimasu (in heavy accent) "COME to America my friend!"
i'd buy 5-6 at that price ..
at least you have some other to change in case..
hm, now if I could just fix some shipping of thoose..
anon: the downside is they're tricky to drive
anonimasu: call them and ask. They ship a lot.
icee: AC servos?
anonimasu : CNC boat a la gps
icee: as far as I know jon elson makes ac drives..
anon: well, in comparison to DC servos *shrug*
but they're brushless - surely that's worth something extra
yah.. extra complexity ;)
have you checked the prices of AC drives/servos?
if the drives are $1000 then it's another story...
they might be..
but, the servos are more like 3000$
even if they were $1000
how the hell are those guys selling them for $40 then ??
etla : stolen
etla: they "fell off a truck"
they are not thieves - they have been here for many years
anyway the price seem not to be a 'lot cheper' ..
[20:59:57] <Jacky^> http://cgi.ebay.it/SERVO-MOTOR-PANASONIC-AC-100W-WITH-ENCODER_W0QQitemZ7552028986QQcategoryZ71400QQssPageNameZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
just $ 30 -
there's helpful data here:
[21:00:25] <icee> http://automation.lonne.com/download/cat/sanyo/P%20series%20motor%20catalog.pdf
ops .. nope
cradek: i'm kidding :P
thats 100 w
I dropped them a mail..
in anonimasu's case... BFE
P50 -- 5 series, B == servo, 08 == 86mm flange, 100 = 1kW output, V == (maximum rotating speed.. nto in this data sheet)
anonimasu: I'll send them to you if you send me some of your chocolate or coffee or whatever's good up there
c = 24VDC break, S = wiring saving incremental 2000 P/R encoder
send to all :P
cradek motors for chocolate dipped females?
cradek: I am going to check this first ;)
but that would be nice
anonimasu: they are only across town from me
I wonder if thoose require special drives or if a normal AC drive will run them
normal .. 1kw ?
ah I am not buying 1kw ones ;)
looks not much normal to me
huh, they opened that store in 1953
thoose 400w would be perfect
but i think at that price would be nice to try ..
they can be re-selled on ebay, eventually
it should be not hard
googled for a drive: http://www.copleycontrols.com/motion/downloads/pdf/Xenus-DataSheet.pdf
hm, if I could find compatible drives I'd buy 4 servos now..
from $766 depending on model...
thoose sell lots on ebay
the 'reduced wire encoder' makes me think a normal drive won't
I was looking at the P5 pdf that icce linked
seems very nice...very high performance
les: do you have a idea about how to drive thoose?
i don't know what the 'v' means in the model number though, which is worrisome
yeah. buy the proprietary unit.
that's not a good way to do it
anyone know some good link for DC servos 250 W at $ 39 ? :PPP
i'm not intereting in all that power
They could probably be made to run as a velocity system with a very high frequency vfd and some additional control circuitry
the question is 'what is this reduced wire encoder stuff'
srial interface? who knows
normal dif incremental encoder is 8 wires
the incremental encoder is A, A_, B, B_, C, C_, E5V, SG, and SEN
icee: the encoder would not be a big prob i think
according to the wiring diagram
that looks normal, right?
the drive is more of a problem
you can find a chepaer encoder than mount on the screw too ..
if you have large servos you can direct drive, and have the encoder on the screw..
yah.. i'd like to use the existing stack if possible tho
in some case the encoder resolution can be scalable from driver too
not for real resolution, but for very good/quick responding velocity measurement
for emc servo update is a limiting issue
we could use a bit more oomph in that department.
what is the update rate with a typical pci servo card ?
les: rtai really sucks :(
many are pushing 10k....
we max out at around 2k
it's fast enoughfor a bridgeport...but a little marginal for HSM
yah.. 2k is plenty for anything i'd do
you'd think with ever faster processors that it would get better ??
wish I could say that...
this stuff should benefit from multiprocessor well, right? or dualcore
don't know how well RTAI behaves with SMP..
because we are trying to do hard real time in a general purpose processor that increasingly relies on statistical methods (like caches) for speed
les: well, real RTOS's for x86 do very well
any other alternative hardware platforms out there (affordable) ?
qnx: free, opensource ?
etla: You used to be able to get it for free for your own use, but EMC (afaik) doesn't run under it
* Jacky^ grrrr
I have a dsp based one here that is 90 microsecond update
that has a g-code interpreter with lookahead etc etc ?
part of it. emc even. But is is not cheap.
les: qnx can do 20-35 microsecond task switches on 2GHz machines
and not finished either
not the software
icee, I am told the messaging is really hurting emc update rate. I possibly could be improved some.
i'm pretty surprised by how flaky emc is, etc
Not as good as some hot dsps...but perhaps better.
about 1 out of 10 times i run it it crashes the machine
a general purpose machine ought to be able to outperform TMS320F2812, etc
I've developed for both.
that is, with good output hardware.
Well, I use emc1, because I cannot experiment on a big, fast , dangerous production machine.
It is very stable.
les: well, I have some kind of race condition on BDI 4.30
though I am running axis
this is the card I have here:
[21:28:57] <les> http://www.dynomotion.com/Help/
uses the emc interpreter.
so it has lookahead ?
it does, but it is crude.
It is a motion card, but not yet a machine control.
It could be.
I am talking with the designer a good bit.
however this is not open source...so of limited use for us.
I'd be willing to participate in the development of a motion card here
if your machine crashes 1 out of 10 times, you may have a bogus machine
the only thing that's unfortunate is that a lot of the motor control DSPs are in unfriendly surface mount packages
icee: axis runs in userspace, just like all the other front ends. It shouldn't be able to cause race conditions that don't exist under the others too.
cradek: I've extensively memtest86'd it
well, the motion cards are out there and not expensive.
So I think it's some kind of race.
icee: well, then that's only one thing that you tested
cradek: I've compiled a lot of software, etc, without undue crashes on it, too.
what is expensive is writing a cnc motion control application.
only due crashes?
wasn't there an effort by geckodrive to do an openshardware motion card ?
jepler: ;) no build failures that weren't my fault
no sigsegvs or sigbuses going around
any good ?
icee: what exactly happens while you're running emc?
cradek: and it always crashes at the exact same spot in startup. about 1 second after the splash disappears
I'm following it. Has some promise.
since axis is userspace, stuff like hard lockups, X server crashes, etc., can't be due to axis bugs
jepler: no, but axis can provoke bugs in the hard realtime parts
though yesterday in one test I saw axis crash at startup in a particularly implausible way
so I drag the mouse around during that time, and if the mouse stops for more than a couple seconds, i know it's crashed
icee: my mouse always pauses when the rt modules insert
(the front end crashed, the PC continued working just fine)
once it starts up, etc, it's bulletproof
cradek: yah, well, it doesn't recover from this
i gave it a couple minutes
this is the emc that comes with bdi 4.30?
cradek: yes. But I built axis rc1
cradek: yesterday, did I show you that emc crashed once at startup with 'division by zero' at one of the places we just started dividing by the SCALE?
icee: I'm pretty sure you will find axis is a red herring. Switch to a different UI to be sure.
cradek: I'm not saying it's an axis bug
just that i'm unable to reproduce with the other UIs
icee: oh really, interesting
heavy network traffic at startup seems to be able to make it bork reliably, btw
like if i'm wgetting a big file in the background
er, where I divided by linear_units
anyone know a good tutorial on tuning emc ? (using parport/freqmod/steppers)
icee: that's an interesting clue
cradek: there are some other things.. like I have the nvidia X server/kernel modules installed
not sure if it crashed before I did that
AXIS would be the only program to use opengl
the nvidia modules DO NOT work with realtime
try having "glxgears" running and start emc with one of the other front ends
it's well known to not work
cradek: maybe that's changed since kernel 2.4?
axis redraws so slow without them
icee: try without for a while, I bet you a dollar/euro that's the problem
or *one of* the problems, since disk activity makes it works?
disk or network, sounds like
probably "lots of interrupts"
i don't know about disk. network, definitely tho.
ifconfig ethn down (while running emc) ?
kz: it only happens during startup.. so right now i've just been risking it
once it actually starts up, it's bulletproof
cradek: that just says latency tests flunk in rtai
emc or the front end?
i get good numbers on the rtai latency tests
kz: when I start EMC, the machine dies about 1/10 times before the front end appears
icee: with a gl app running?
cradek: I can test that
they will ship internationally
but, unless I know what drives that will run thoose it's not a optino
build the drives yourself :)
wish they had drives for $40 too
etla: I dont have time
then just buy a VMC from Haas or something :)
I have enough money to buy drives, just not at the sanyo pricing ;)
looking, searching ..
hmmm.. let me guess .. software fundings?
writing to emc-users about my problems...
found some nice ballscrew on ebay ..
but singapore , doh
get some open-source ballscrews
those are cheaper
how much ?
you made ballscrew ?
screw the balls
[22:30:50] <Jacky^> http://cgi.ebay.it/THK-ballscrew-dia-20-lead-5mm-for-CNC-desk-mill-lathe_W0QQitemZ7552276701QQcategoryZ50924QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
i will buy form abba
but this thk seem to me very nice
abba is great
they had some very nice hits
thats ok .. but the shipping..
and "money money money"
im following les suggestions
ive not much alternatives
abba, or hiwin
im waiting for gecko quotes too ..
2 days mmm :(
* alex_joni suggests : CHIQUITITA, FERNANDO, THANK YOU FOR THE MUSIC
i hope to have all for the end of mounth
so i can start building in november ..
what kind of machine ?
etla: an evil machine
a monster :)
1x1 m wood cnc machine
have you seen my machine ?
no, you have pics ?
i build in may 2005 ..
yes, a moment
is like that
but the mine is here:
[22:39:51] <Jacky^> http://www.roboitalia.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=158&pos=3
i also builded a box .. LOL
and you want a new one already ?
i want a good machine
that you seen its a toy
all metal with servos ?
i spent about E. 100 to build that i catually have
burned 2-3 drivers
burned 15-20 IC l297-8
burned about 5-6 bit ..
so.. i learned enough in few mouths :)
but it was funny
I have been using geckos and never burned anything
i started using l297
building the board from myself
optoisolator parport circuit too
you can found the schematics in the website
geckos with microstepping will be smoother but you need a higher pulse freq to get speed
i will use G340
what DC servos ?
done with the steppers
i will help my cousin now with the stepper
what model DV servos ? from where and cost ?
he want to build a plasma cutter
I'm asking because I have G340's sitting in the box but no servos
and i need his help with lathe and maechanical building
etla: ive not starting to ask about servos ..
im tryng to look for used
i will ask in italy, in Torin
i need 250w dc motor
ive some motor too here
biggest .. i need to try it when ill receive the driver
g340's work great ;)
ive no datasheet
anonimasu: it seem
etla: are you thinking to seel your drivers ? :P
if I don't find some cheap servos I might sell them.
etla: you can use DC motors with encoders..
id you the first dc motor i encountered , instead
sure, it also depend on what hes doing to do ..
for many applications should be enough
they would be for a small mill
I think we have around 300ozin steppers now
working slow ?
there are various problems, but yes, faster rapids would be nice
but we are also thinking of a bigger machine, so maybe not put too much money on this one
this one is the first one, and like you said for yours, a bit of a toy
right, i agree with you
my friend wants to take a loan and just buy a Haas :)
im waiting from may 2005
maybe that would be easier...
and not for $$$ question
just to understand what exaclty i need
cnc are expensive
im thinking to an USC
would be niceee
whats that ?
anonimasu: are you using it , right ?
etla: is a controller
if i understood weel
it do a lot of nice thing
like maininig position after driver fault
or paused the job, jojjing the axis manually the restart from the same point
i'm not 100 % sure, but it would be
ok I need to sleep, it's 0:26 thursday already ! good night
Cyao a tutta la stanza!
ora mi metto a parlare dialetto
why not ..
peask only good english here
i dont' speake english
they accept also imperfect english .. np
wait a moment :)
try this website :)
you speak english
yeah i do
anonimasu: you around ?
now i'm also registered
no pvt without nick reg
unregistered user cannot open query
/ns register password
i'm alredy registered
keyss`: not .. probably
it was to keyss
keyss are u registered ?
do /ns register password
keyss`: its okay ?
she knows just a little of english and i think didn't understnd
i'm too :(��
* Jacky^ sigh
i'm going to sleep
g night Cr4sh0v3r , thanks
it's 00.20 here
/ns wont work for all clients
keyss is my new girlfriend :P
very nicee :)