only us chickens
was wathing on tv the new 9/11 of president bush
a dossier on katrina disaster
g night all
robin_sz: you there ?
:( well stoped work for tonight , need to use a drill , guess the neigbours would complain if i started drilling at 1:18am
hi ValarQ :)
i wrote a hal module this morning :)
for simple controlling of PWM servos
yeah, i was a bit surprised, i thought it would be harder than it was
no, i have only done static positioning
it is going to be connected to a valve later...
had some problems with the resolution thought
steps resolutions ?
maybe it's a bad idea to use the parport for creating such signals
i agreed, in some case its better to get signals directly from a driver..
but it coud be required a complex servodrive cricuit :\
yeah, this hal component did the job pretty ok thought
ValarQ: use this Mesanet 5i20 kard for that !!
mshaver is now known as mshaver_away
Hi Dan. Figured you'd be sleeping in
no. I'm going back out to my shop momentarily
been making parts again
how are you doing?
How's the bpt?
working pretty well. I have 2 Kurt vises on the table, using multi fixture offsets
only thing I'm not real happy about is the X axis ball screw
It's ground thread, but been abused with chips inside it
so theres some fretting in the ball nut
I'll have to swap it out sometime
but overall I really like having a Bridgeport
much nicer than the old mill/drill
Great. I like em also.
Sounds like an abuse of air for blowing chips away.
yep. the guy was air nozzle happy
I cleaned 2.5 gallons of chips out of the knee
I was amazed
Yep. Had a couple of those kinds of knees with the hydrapoints.
I like the centroid control that's on this mill
it's really handy
I've seen some where the knee bevel gear was clogged.
this one is DOS based, but I see that Centroid is doing a Linux based machine now
I used Roland's centroid a bit.
are these servo motors or steppers
pretty hefty ones
it looks like I'm getting 250 ipm rapids
Are the drives enclosed in the centroid or external/
the drives are centroid proprietary
which is a bummer
I will contact Roland and ask what he knows about it sometime
That control was one of the things that caused the split between them.
well, I hope to make enough money with it to replace the servo amps with copely or something less 'black box'
Right. That would give you the flexibility to experiment with systems.
well, I must make some coffee
good chatting with you Ray
Don't work to hard today.
Wow. The revised restart from line and the verify are awesome.
Thanks Steven, Paul, Matt.
That was cute. Running emc, downloading, writing lyx -- IRC and emc crashed.
all well with you?
served from your site?
Things are going rather well, thanks.
If we need images but don't have a server elsewhere, can we send them to you and use a stock image directory.
there is a possibility to allow uploads via thw wiki
or by email ...
really. That would be awesome.
somwhere .. there is a script I can link to an address, you mail the image to someSpecialName@wiki.linuxcnc.org and it mails back the URL
That would do it!
let me go look through the config first, see if I can find the ting in the wiki
How you doing?
struggling on ...
trying to run two jobs at the same time and a young family
Swiss or elsewhere?
Uk at the moment, was in NYC last week
geneva next week
You'll need your own Jet soon. With a workstation and shop!
I need another 8 hrs a day
you know, for a while I thought I found them too
I know that feeling.
I just started using the ones I had used for sleep, for work
nah, 6L of Coca Cola :)
That buz is heard to keep up for more than a few days.
And it's cost gets greater as you age.
OK, uploads enabled on the wiki
we'll see how it goes .. if it atteacts warez and pr0n, I'll restrict it to editors and admins OK?
The restriction would probably be good to do now.
What is the process for upload? or will you add that to the edit info page?
well, go look at the wiki ... see the top line where it says "upload" ?
Ah. I need to read.
when its uploaded, it gives you back a wiki link
Nice. That will work really well. Thanks for this, Robin.
no problem, just a moments worth of config
Gotta help a neighbor for a bit. Will watch
rayh is now known as rayh-away
wanted to ask some more questions
I talked to Ray on the phone last night bout Rolands mazak
tentatively I'll be going out the week of Oct 8
Ray and Matt may arrive the preceding week to wire things
with an umbrella?
we're leaning toward DC input drives, I think I can scrounge the PS parts (3-phase bridge rectifier, caps, etc)
at least they should ot need AC
rainy season isn't it?
should be wonderful weather at least in comparison
beats hot season anyway...
a roof stops rain, but not heat
changing the taps on the power transformer will get you about 110 vdc off the power supply
oh... I thought we could get lower
ie use 275 v taps on the transformer and remember to move both ends
well it would come down a bit if your power is 230 not 240
jmk...how did you implement the jog end of the panel jog encoder on the mazak/
haven't yet... will work on that
I just have the encoder routed to the PC and a HAL counter counting it
converting to NML jog commands is yet to be done
handwheels are a long wanted addition
OK, that was really my question.......simple send nml jog commands to the system
I know its been done before, but it will be nice to do it right
I'm thinking of a small GUI widget with buttons for X,Y,Z, and x1,x10,x100, plus a HAL connector for the wheel input
another dumb question....why didn't you use encoder(3) since its dac is already used for spindle
the joghweel doesn't require that kind of count rate, better to keep that encoder counter for the spindle encoder
jmk...I've been running my mazak at 127 vdc on the servo drives with no problems but tried moving the taps on the transformer the other day.
the nicest jog controls Ive used have been on pro video machines
spin to jog,
press and release and it changes into a shuttle control
270 degree movement, centre detent
ahh... just have to scavange a video board for the control then
I used to swap them out of Sony Betacam editors all the time at the BBC, bet they are impossible to buy though ...
rayh-away is now known as rayh
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY swanlake
Looks like I just missed Dave.
* robin_sz writes down ray's password for future use
dotn you just hate it when you do that?
something I should know here?
you must have put a space before "/msg nickserv blah, blah"
because it appeared on the channel
oh. No problem. Anyone can use my name.
/msg NickServ IDENTIFY swanlake
you did it again...
same thing. don't think it wants to do that.
try /msg jmkasunich
no space before the /
the / must be the first on the line
I should link away with me, eh.
ray... I was just thinking about spindle orient
in addition to tool change, there is another application - undercuts
dunno if I'm using the right terminology... single point tool that is oriented, inserted in a hole, then use to back spotface or whatever, then oriented again to remove it
One of the G8x canned cycles defined for that task.
Yep. It's there.
so when you run the canned cycle it sends a NML to the IO task to orient the spindle?
rayh is now known as rayh-away
Don't think it was ever fully implemented.
rayh-away is now known as rayh
some truly impressive CNC work: http://www.cncgunsmithing.com/projects/1911a1frame.html
paul_c: I installed the latest emc 1.0.26 or such from the repository.
It also shows an update to the kernel modules
Got that as well. Chips.ngc works great now.
Had a couple of days where neuron.com wasn't synching with the repository here
I'm not certain where I got it. I had both in the source list.
Man that restart works great.
As does the verify.
Try verifying a file with a duff line
1 - line 4211: Unknown word where unary operation could be
I used a g0 fxx
"line 4211" is a new addition
doesn't relate to N words...
does it display N## if one is available?
kwrite has line numbering available.
the interp doesn't pass N words back
Perhaps we should make a similar thing available in the editor?
Right I forgot that notation.
Not tonight.... I must get this build finished for Craig.
No problem, let me try and do it here.
Had another bug report on mini earlier....
What was it?
Highlight a block of text with the mouse, and then delete/undo
Doesn't delete/undo the expected block
Use cursor keys to select the text, it works as expected..
I know that I built my own delete/undo cause the text widget didn't have it.
The current tickle does have a good delete/undo so I should update the work.
Or rewrite it and use Qt libs ?
Is Qt ready for such a full feature thing?
Qt is.... Not so sure about EMC being ready for a Qt frontend....
How are you doing today.
I try to finish my PCBs today, but Im to lazy
I am a bit lazy also.
you have a VIA EPIA Board i heard !!
I was wondering how the fpga project was going?
Yes 2 right now.
I burned up a couple a while back.
the FPGA stuffis going slowly
I kick myself still.
ah yes, the fpga stuff ...
What is the board you are working today.
this was the ISA thing, right?
I really need a servo amp now to try with the G200X ...
needs to be 0-5V and a direction input, rather than +-10
Sort of PWM?
nope, a DAC Board for driving real Servo Amps
0 to 5v
that is never used with servo amps, standard is +-10V
well, thats the great thing about standards
so many to choose from
anyway, wont be hard to convert it to 10-0-10
just needs a cheap and simple pwm amp
sort of like a gecko, but just the amp part
I keep looking for a simple design and fail to find one
couople of IRF530s and a chip sort of thing
use a galil 1280
50$ at ebay.com
nah, needs to be somehting I can acquire in the UK, preferably in quantity
galil doesnt sell much in the UK
thats thr trouble with servos, for amateur use there are very limited options
theres geckos, which arent real servos and then? pretty much nothing until the "real" stuff
rayh: what about performance of that VIA Boards ???
Not at all bad if you don't need a lot of step pulses. 4k at 30 ipm works
servo is great.
and which one do you have
I don't see issues here with the onboard video but there may be some.
X is ok ?
the 800 MHz EPIA/EPOX
thassa point... rayh: Is there any update on that Mesa card yet ?
I'll get back to them in the morning and see what's wrong with the delivery or order or what.
paul_c: do you have ordered some of the mesa boards ?
via a little place in Michigan, yes
ok, what are you planning to do with them ?
I've got the PCI version of "anything IO" running servos here.
you know, that we are working on some breakout boards here
with the mesa PWM breakout board ?
Little motors with the 100 watt drivers.
rayh is now known as rayh-away
Might be interested in breakout boards...
paul_c: if you wana see our boards, let me know
* paul_c wanna see.
we are nearly ready with them
do you have eagle installed ?
I can instal it easy enough...
rayh-away is now known as rayh
Gotta run guys. Thanks.
how are you
hmmm ... i wonder if I can persuade Mariss to do a 10-0-10 version of the G320, without all the encoder and step-counter crap on it?
you mean +/-10V output?
sorry, brainfart, I thought you meant a version of the G101
ie a real servo amp
seems small servo amps are hard to find ...
for cheap anyway
im beginning to understand why everyone uses steppers for msall machines ... because there arent any small servo amps or motors readily available
yeah... the only small motors I've seen have been salvaged from equipment
yeah, that bit is solvable I htink
DC motr, add a US Robotics encoder
good quality small motors with rear shaft extensions for encoders don
don't grow on trees either
I *think* thats solvable though ... not the hardest part of the equation
well drives can be built
granted, you'd prefer to just buy them... but it is easier to build a small drive than a small motor
Ive been searching for a proven H bridge design
no luck yet
reverse engineer a gecko
I wa shoping to use the web ...
dont re-invent the wheel
except .. it seems no one has bothered to document that particular wheel in a place ive looked
robin_sz: a DC motor with encoder != servomotor
in that grman forum, they are developing something like a geck
and they had also the problem to find DC servos
explain why dc + encoder != servo
a normal DC servo with 120W of power is about 500 EUR
so they used a normal DC-Motor and added a encoder
after one day of working it was gone :-)
and it was not that small
i think the comutator is the problem
or the brushes?
don't know it exactly
generic motors might not like repeated direction changes
old story: I once designed a 300HP DC drive for industrial DC motors
jep, i think that is the problem, then it overheats
normal brush life for such motors is a year or more
dc motors are designed for bursts , as soon as you start using small moves and electric breaking thay dont last
we did a life test of the drive by repeatedly accelling and decelling the motor (using inertia for a load)
brushes wore out in less than a month
because we were running it both directions, the brushes never got a change to "wear in" for either direction
you realy want brushless motors
yes, and a real servo has a very long live ! The brushes are looking not that different !! I have a lot of servos from ebay, some of them have bad magnets, but the comutator and the brushes are looking very good
but a brushless dc motor , well basicaly is not much diferent from a stepper just with the elecronics built
and with a much higher accurency
a stepper driver manufactur said to me, that the coils of normal steppers are very inaccurat
there is a tollerance of about 5-10%
and if you want to have a smooth run, you can't also take the cheap brushless servos used in pic and place machines
bu, ok for most hobby useres they are ok
using a 3 phase motor or reverceable ac motor as a servo should be ok , would have to gear it down and mount the encoder on the output of the gearbox , electronic breaking should still work also
5 to 10% on the coils on a stepper will only affect the max touqe by aprox the same ammount
why do you dislike steppers so much , speed or cost ?
btw with a 3 phase motor you should be able to drive it in a simalar way to a stepper , may only get 1 or 2 steps per revoultion from it though
opps 3 or 6 steps per revolution
well, brushless is nice
usually need encoders and a tach
you use the encoder for position
and the tach for commutation in the AC drive
using ac motors and generating the ac by pulseing dc is easyer , but again thats how a brushless one works anyway
you can get great little AC servos
I have some ...
but they are $$$$$
using 3 phase mains motors as stepers in the same way works but you may need to gear the output
and well have to design a 3 phase stepper driving sequence rather than the usual 4
and build a 3 phase step drive
so, lets forget thatr then
at least a three phase drive only needs 6 switches, a normal stepper drive needs 8
true I guess
but DC brush motors only need 4
and there are plastic bricks to do 3 phase drive I guess
but I think DC brush is more appropriate for small machines
you've said "small" several times... how small is that?
the bricks aren't what I'd consider small
medium sized stepper I guess
2-3A @ 50-100V then?
that sort of thing
I was thinking 5A, 60V max
ok, I misunderstood you
to me, Gecko is medium, xylotex (2.5A @ 24V) is small (those are stepper drives, but...)
sort of 1m^^2 router sort of size
was thinking something that would do the 300w to 3kw range
3KW is piggin' huge
the X on the laser os 3Kw
well thay shouldent burn the frigging motor out that way
moves a 500kg gantry at 60m/minute
3kw is deffo AC drive territory
although saying that not shure if you can get small power rating 3 phase motors
100 to 500W is DC motor territory
and steppers do 0-300W I guess
well from the point of view of cost , a 3 phase 150w motor may be easyer than a dc motor and a encoder
you still need an encoder .. and a tach
btw you should be able to drive it using 3 switching transistors /fets
and because your using it in a stepper config drive would be 220 - 240vDC
well you wouldnt drive it stepped would you ...
it would still be sine wave driven
right - you could think of it as microstepped if you wish
but open loop "stepper" operation of a 3-phase motor would be silly
you d be better off with a stepper!
open loop, the amount of movement as you put load on it ..
could be 60 degrees!
[19:43] <AchiestDragon> using a 3 phase motor or reverceable ac motor as a servo should be ok , would have to gear it down
are you talking about open or closed loop here?
60 degrees ...
gear it down waht? 20:1
ac motors tend to have heavy rotors
does "intertial mis-match" mean anything to you?
forget that !!
gear it down to operate a drawbridge maybe
* robin_sz nods
well never said it was perfect
open loop aint going to work
robin: Ach did ask a very good question of you a little earlier: why not use steppers
a servo is expensive because of precision, smooth operation, a lot of calculation inside of the amp, a good sensor (encoder, tach,...) and so on. A stepper doesent have that all, thats why it is cheap
well, I wanted to experiment with the g200x driving servos directly, now it has the high speed PID capability
assuming you call 16khz "high speed"
ok, experiments are good... but for "small" (depending on how you define it) steppers probably if you simply want best bang for the buck
yeah, I know ...
for X and Y I will probably use stepeprs
which explains the lack of small servo drives and motors
but for Z ...
that is the torch height thing
a servo seems more appropraite in some ways
you know in hard disk drives the head steppers have been replaced with a moving coil type design ,given that a liniear motor (in is bigest form ) can lift a train , it should be posable to do one that could move and position large loads
would be quick and acurate also
yes, they are
seen them to 6m/second
and 0.001" resolution with 1G or more of accel
have sean a lathe with linear motors, that is cool, you cant see it, when it returns to the starting point
there was one at the last motion control show
on air bearings ...
one moment it was here ...
the next over there
great for emptying wallets very quiclky too
yes, and now think on a real big lathe, making big chips
they had a small weight on a string ... acelerate towards it .. stop, push it a little, gently bring it back .. go 2m away and then .. zap ... straight back to it with a 0.005" gap
joint demo from Anilam I think and ... that linear encoder lot
alpha is now known as a-l-p-h-a
the problem I see with linear motros in engineerign application like a lathe
is .. well, lathes make swarf
linear motors are a big magnet with a slot
I gave away two Anilam linear motors, one with renishaw encoder... hope the folks can do something fun with them
jmkasunich: we have to talk about that gantry stuff sometimes.
we are fiering up our big gantry machine the next time
what do you want to discuss?
how to implement it ecactly
alex had the idear, to export some slave axis
i think a extra type of a joint would be a good idear
my inclination is always to deal with things at the lowest level practical
more general than that...
servo amp ?
if you can avoid the motion controller needing to treat it as a special axis that is a good thing
but maybe you cant
the problem is only homing
the concept of homing currently is a fairly high level, the motion controller only
nothing lower level knows about homing
that may mean that you can't deal with gantry without involving the motion controller
even tho I don't like it
after it is homed, i only have to take care that the difference between them is smaler than a given value
do you have a idea how to solve the problem with the hardware counter
I don't know what problem you are talking about... I haven't thought about gantry in months
or more exactly with the ref-switches which are reseting the counters in hardware
[21:02:18] <AchiestDragon> http://www.calinear.com/
ok but how much i wonder
you are using two switches to "de-skew" the axis?
jep, but i mean the problem that emc has, when the counters suddenly change to zero
then it has a big folowing error, and it starts to move with max. speed
havent tryed it up to now, because i cant get the index pulse with my siemens cards, but i think it was reported more than once
in emc2 I have avoided using hardware counter reset for that reason
I see that, how is emc1 doing that ?
have to look, but there it is no problem, or ??
btw. have you tryed the siemens card ?
I have done very little lately... very disorganized
robin_sz: i reworked the x axis so it can use slides , waiting for slides to turn up now , should hopefuly have them by the weekend
what slide you chose?
those you showd me n ebay
the accuride ones?
I thought i suggested those for Z ...
but should be OK of X I guess
also seen a compaq set , 6 slides thinking thay may be better , use all 6 of them
drawer runners/slides as rails are a thing that seem to get used
I suggested those slides for Z I think, because of the way the ball cage moves about
whatever, they should work better than your current arrangemtn I suspect
the acuride ones are a 2 part one , the compaq ones are 3 so give bigger travel than lenth , but 6 mounted correctly should be ok
yeah, its a quesiton of being ingenipous :)
yes , well y and z are ok , it was x that i was having twist problems with
the trick is ...
to get as much distance as possible between the front and back carriage/slide/thing
robin_sz, is this working for you? http://sourceforge.net/index.php
a-l-p-h-a: works here
apart from some stuff about hurrican katrina, yes .. its fine
hmm... I get a blank screen
I get a blank page
proably a different server
going direct to the EMC page works fine
it is stunningly unlikely theat the SF homepage is served by one machine, will be several machines feeding a load balancer
I guess theresa duff one out there
getting a blank page in ie on windows though
well, thats easy to cure ;)
repeated hits should be balanced onto different machines tho...
the other way to share it out is by DNS ...
did several retries, one worked
but is fine in konqueror
give out different IP to diffeent clients
sounds like a coding issue then
oh the irony .. works in Moz, not in IE :)
back in a couple hours
jmkasunich is now known as jmk_away
* robin_sz checks
yes .. yes it is/
is here somebody who has worked with XILINX CPLDs ???
ummm, fpgas yes, cplds no ...
and then, only a little bit
I wana know if i can use this global IO pins also as normal IOs if i dont need special clock pins and so on in my circuit
I think so, global IO is usually used for clock, but you could use it for other things .. its just works out better if you need a clock, to use those specific pins ...
thats my understnading anyway
have heard the same, but i don't know
my understnading was it was distributed as a layer, with guaranteed maximum delay, and handy for the CK inputs on latches etc, but thats all I know
heh, try it and see what happens, its re-programmable right?
jep, but the PCB is not reprogrammable :-)
i will see
i found an old board ..
L298 with near an LM339N
lm339n seem to be a comparator ..
what do ?
regulate the current ?
has anyone never seen a circuit like that ?
the board i found drive 2 cc motors with encoders
probably current control
the 298 can be used to drive DC motors
often with ...
forgotten the number
robin it seem to work very nice
i want to analize how it work
if i try to turn the motor in the opposite way wen it run
look at LM629 ...
it come back
yeah, servo control ...
to the same poit I moved !
yep, thats what servos do!
now you need to tell the board to make it move to a new point
is there an LM629 on the board?
maybe .. a moment
or 628 maybe
it has an L296 near the PS section,
296? .. wait
2 L298 and 2 LM339N
296 is a regulator
to make it come back to same point
there needs to be a controller chip of some sort
I have a board with I think 4 lm628 on it
programmed it a good bit
yeah, the 628 and 629 are fairly neat little servo controls .. similar in many wayt to the guts of G320 gecko
I got about 1 ms servo update
the two L298 have pin 2 tiled to pin 14
bit slow ...
probably to get more current on motors
les: have you seen what mr Hardy has done with the G200X and pid loops?
wow. There is a praying mantis sitting on the window sill near my computer....it is over 10 cm long!!!! It is swiveling its head watching me.
no I haven't
encoders have a square wave for step, a square wave for rev., and a sinusoidal output ..
phot it now!
I identified the species...It is a chinese mantid. They get as big as15 cm
les: hes embedded a simple processor int he FPGA ... seperate data and prog areas, can read the encoder positions and write to the analogue IO ...
It flew in the door. Ithought it was a bird.
update rate is at least 16Khz :)
only got a 1kbyte prog segment, but that should be enough I think .. runs around 50mhz from what I remember
(most of that is from memory, I could be worng of course)
which is whay I am trying to find a reference design for a little H bridge servo amp :)
robin_sz: what do motor came back to the same point ? the software ?
Jacky^: there must be a controller of some sort, or even a counter ont he end of the encoder
so, the software can 'understand' that and come back ?
understood right ?
see the block diagram on the LM629 ... if it comes back to the same point when it moves by hand, then there must be some circuit like that onm the board
read the position from encoder, comapre to where it should be, generate error signal to drive motor
can be software or hardware
uhm, ok, the board have many ICs, and eprom above..
i will take some photos..
so, might have a uP on there?
its look like ols C64 board ..
les: anyway, that give the possibilty to drive real servos ...
I will have to check it out
still watching that bug....
biggest bug I ever saw.
the swiveling head watching me...creepy!
les read the latest manual, he refers to it as "white heat" ... his cute name for the embedded processor. its fairly basic, but sounds like it has enough to do pid
we dont getthose over here
chinese mantis were introduced here 100 years ago..and are the largest insect in north america
100mm long in the body and quite fat and juicy?
no kinda skinny
[23:52:09] <les> http://www.cirrusimage.com/mantidae.htm
robin_sz: dou you think is it possible to analyze the pulses, with a scope, on L298
to understand how is it drived ?
or its hard ?
les: ouch.. what is ?
anna_emc: understood ..
mmm ... big thing
Jacky^: it will be PWM on one side of the motor, the other side held low, probably
robin_sz: thanks :)
les: do they eat native species?
my cousin gave to me these board
he want to biuld a plasma cutter ..
let me sell him one ;)
he think this board its very nice
if i can understand how it work ..
les: I saw the other day they have discovered a new way to catch can toads in Aus,
seems they are attracted to UV lights at night ...
tomorror i will do some photos, so i can show it to you
les: trouble with pretty oriental imports, they often upsetthe local foodchain
mantis are good...you buy egg pods and put them in the garden. They eat bugs and even lizards and small birds