#emc | Logs for 2005-05-20

[00:34:52] <Jymmm> Yo
[00:37:28] <paul__c> damit... there's a tuning GUI for megasquirt..
[00:38:29] <A-L-P-H-A> hahaha megasquirt... my neightbour wants me to build one for him, to do his '82 sirroco.
[00:38:39] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm not gonna do it.
[00:38:45] <A-L-P-H-A> he can buy it, when they finish the damn thing.
[00:45:41] <Jymmm> megasquirt?????????????
[00:48:19] <A-L-P-H-A> megasquirt, fuel management system. open sourced. electronics, and software.
[00:48:35] <A-L-P-H-A> kinda like g2002 for car fuel management systems.
[00:48:41] <A-L-P-H-A> creative liscense, and all that.
[00:53:35] <jmkasunich> is paul_c watching?
[00:54:06] <paul__c> * paul__c is heading off to bed.
[00:54:43] <jmkasunich> just wanted to mention something... there have been two bug reports in the last two days where the user has identified it as
[00:54:50] <jmkasunich> "emc2"
[00:55:10] <jmkasunich> but from all appearances it seems to be the bdi-4 version
[00:55:33] <paul__c> Anders' is HEAD
[00:55:34] <jmkasunich> just wondering about how to distinguish the two
[00:56:28] <paul__c> What was the other bug report ?
[00:56:33] <jmkasunich> I wonder what distro he's running under? (HEAD still doesn't compile under 2.6, a few nasty bugs to squash before merging)
[00:56:47] <jmkasunich> "odd behavior in MDI mode"
[00:56:59] <jmkasunich> item 1171692
[00:57:59] <paul__c> using apt-get, so yes. That would be bdi-4 branch.
[00:58:41] <jmkasunich> I was thinking about adding something to the tracker page asking folks to clearly identify the version they are talking about
[00:59:23] <paul__c> and Rumley committed a fix for the bug to HEAD.
[00:59:32] <jmkasunich> but I'm not sure the average newbie would even know which one
[01:00:44] <jmkasunich> why doesn't that surprise me?
[01:01:46] <paul__c> "fix" on HEAD, but bug reported on a branch.
[01:02:01] <jmkasunich> right...
[01:02:19] <paul__c> need to move forward on the joining...
[01:02:41] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:03:05] <jmkasunich> kbuild now compiles on all four platforms (bdi2.xx, tng, live, 4.20)
[01:03:28] <jmkasunich> but there is a problem on 4.20 that can lead to lockups, no way I want to merge that into HEAD
[01:03:50] <paul__c> A straight join on the common usr space code will cause major breakages across the board.
[01:04:05] <jmkasunich> I know.. it's gonna be a mess
[01:04:45] <jmkasunich> I'm hoping to find and fix the lockup bug in kbuild over the next couple days, then kbuild can merge with HEAD
[01:04:47] <paul__c> I tried a BDI-4.21 build this afternoon.
[01:05:06] <jmkasunich> building emc, or building a complete BDI CD?
[01:05:21] <paul__c> compiling emc2[HEAD]
[01:05:46] <jmkasunich> HEAD doesn't have any kbuild stuff in it
[01:05:58] <paul__c> sorry, kbuild branch.
[01:06:08] <jmkasunich> oh, ok
[01:06:32] <paul__c> compiled without any significant errors...
[01:06:40] <jmkasunich> that's good to hear
[01:06:47] <jmkasunich> but didn't run I bet
[01:06:59] <paul__c> locked up solid as soon as I tried to run.
[01:07:16] <jmkasunich> yeah, alex, martin, and I have all experienced that
[01:08:03] <jmkasunich> I'm workin on it ;-)
[01:08:48] <jmkasunich> keep forgetting to test it on my 2.4 box - I believe it is specific to 2.6, but I'm not sure yet
[01:08:52] <paul__c> You are still using rtapi_get_time() despite it not being RT thread safe
[01:11:22] <jmkasunich> you are referring to the version that calls do_gettimeofday?
[01:11:29] <paul__c> anonimasu: Go to bed.
[01:12:19] <paul__c> Yes.
[01:12:44] <paul__c> But I doubt that is the real cause of the lock.
[01:12:54] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich looks for CONFIG_X86_HAS_TSC
[01:13:28] <jmkasunich> 4.20 is compiled for i686, which certainly has a TSC, so it should be calling rt_get_cpu_time_ns()
[01:13:28] <paul__c> most of the BDI-4.xx kernels don't have it enabled.
[01:14:57] <jmkasunich> HAS_TSC is something that is separately configured when you build the kernel, or is it derived from the arch info (i386, i586, etc)?
[01:16:22] <jmkasunich> perhaps the #else in that function should simply return 0 (at least if called from realtime code)
[01:17:33] <jmkasunich> as you say, that probably isn't the cause of the lock, but it should be fixed anyway
[01:18:09] <jmkasunich> on the BDI, if TSC is separately configured, can you turn it on in future builds... ns rather than us times are nice for testing
[01:19:00] <jmkasunich> I don't think there is any code in EMC2 that actually uses the value from rtapi_get_time for anything other than logging and measurements, so a version that always returns zero should be OK
[01:22:38] <paul__c> This was pointed out last year...
[01:23:11] <jmkasunich> and I never got around to fixing it
[01:25:35] <paul__c> Run through the sequence for running a series of periodic functions under HAL
[01:26:19] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07kbuild-0-1 * 10emc2/src/rtapi/rtai_rtapi.c: Replaced a call to do_gettimeofday() with a thread-safe dummy in rtapi_get_time(). If the kernel is compiled with support for the TSC, then a nano-second resolution function is used, otherwise the dummy is used.
[01:26:28] <jmkasunich> yo mean the code that calls them?
[01:26:54] <paul__c> thread_task is the main loop isn't it...
[01:27:17] <jmkasunich> yep
[01:27:48] <paul__c> so where does that get scheduled ?
[01:28:08] <jmkasunich> it is a realtime task
[01:28:49] <paul__c> but where is the call to rtapi to set the scheduler up ?
[01:28:59] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is looking
[01:29:40] <jmkasunich> hal_lib.c:1202
[01:29:54] <jmkasunich> well, that creates it...
[01:30:24] <jmkasunich> starting it as a periodic task is at 1212
[01:31:53] <jmkasunich> I added some outb's to the "thread_task" loop to set a bit at the start of each thread, and clear it at the end, and did some scoping Tuesday night
[01:32:20] <paul__c> OK... Now where are the "threads" added to the list ?
[01:32:23] <jmkasunich> the threads seem to be completing in a few uS each (max 20 for servo, 14 for base)
[01:33:03] <jmkasunich> shortly later... I know what you are thinking... thread runs before it's added
[01:33:42] <jmkasunich> but the "new" structure is already filled out before the task is started
[01:34:03] <jmkasunich> it may not be linked to the list, but it has everything that "thread_task()" needs to run the realtime stuff
[01:34:14] <paul__c> no... I was thinking more subtle..
[01:34:31] <jmkasunich> sorry - I shouldn't try to read minds
[01:36:18] <paul__c> which function call is used to register an RT component func() ?
[01:36:36] <jmkasunich> hal_add_funct
[01:36:42] <jmkasunich> line 1286
[01:37:39] <paul__c> register function...
[01:38:01] <jmkasunich> hmm, thats kinda dumb... (not crashy dumb, just wastefull dumb)... I grab the mutex before doing some validity checks
[01:38:41] <jmkasunich> register function?
[01:41:04] <paul__c> hal_export_funct()
[01:41:41] <jmkasunich> are you going down this path because you had a lockup as soon as you started to run?
[01:42:24] <jmkasunich> because I don't think it's a problem in the setup code... Alex and I have experienced lockups ranging from a couple seconds into the run to many minutes
[01:42:41] <jmkasunich> short periods for the base (fastest) thread result in sooner lockups
[01:42:51] <jmkasunich> longer periods (like 100uS) run longer
[01:43:26] <jmkasunich> but the vast majority of our lockups were clearly well after the thread/functions were already set up and no longer being changed
[01:44:03] <jmkasunich> you might have just gotten "lucky" and had it fail in the first 100 milliseconds - indistinguishable from failing while setting things up
[01:44:45] <jmkasunich> (not that I don't appreciate you looking over that code...)
[01:45:33] <paul__c> I'm not looking for any mutex or thread timing issues.
[01:46:46] <jmkasunich> none of the public functions in hal_lib.c are called after the setup is completed
[01:46:50] <jmkasunich> only thread_task()
[01:50:14] <paul__c> When you were scoping out the timings, did the system lock up at any point ?
[01:51:48] <jmkasunich> yeah, once... seemed to be in the base thread (that does step generation and parport)
[01:52:22] <paul__c> but the servo loop continued to run ?
[01:52:40] <jmkasunich> nope, everything was frozen at that point
[01:52:50] <jmkasunich> base is the highest priority
[01:53:28] <paul__c> so the stepper task was still running, but not the slower tasks ?
[01:54:02] <jmkasunich> the bit that says "in the stepper task" was stuck on
[01:54:18] <jmkasunich> as if the stepper task never finished up and yeilded the CPU
[01:55:14] <paul__c> more likely, the stepper task started, and the system went tits up at that point.
[01:55:22] <jmkasunich> right
[01:55:51] <jmkasunich> that was the last thing I say Tuesday night (weds morning really)
[01:55:58] <jmkasunich> couldn't work on it yesterday
[01:56:08] <jmkasunich> today I'm gonna do more instrumenting of the base thread
[01:57:17] <jmkasunich> I was thinking about adding an even higher priority and faster RT task, that would serve as a watchdog
[01:57:50] <jmkasunich> if the base task locks up, the WD task could kill it and unfreeze the system... to save time during debugging
[02:04:30] <jmkasunich> hmmmm... emc2kbuild is running chips3d and backplotting on my TNG box, with a compile going on at the same time to cause some disk and RAM thrashing
[02:04:43] <jmkasunich> at 50uS base poeriod (which caused lockups in seconds on this box)
[02:06:04] <jmkasunich> I wonder if there have been any RTAI api changes between RTAI 2.4.xx and RTAI 3?
[02:07:52] <paul__c> I see one possible problem area in freqgen.c
[02:08:14] <jmkasunich> where?
[02:08:43] <paul__c> You have a union in freqgen_t
[02:09:21] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:09:34] <paul__c> st0_t & st2_t (argg... that _t gets to be....)
[02:09:43] <jmkasunich> sorry bout that
[02:09:58] <robin_z> eep!
[02:10:13] <paul__c> Those two structs need to be packed..
[02:10:15] <robin_z> 03:10 .. time to drive to the airport ...
[02:10:30] <jmkasunich> why?
[02:10:47] <robin_z> going to geneva for 10 days ...
[02:10:53] <robin_z> another auction
[02:11:05] <jmkasunich> I always use one or the other, never both (I'm not doing the "write it as an int, read it as chars" trick
[02:12:38] <paul__c> so you are making the assumption that gcc will use the same amount of space regardless of which struct you want to use.
[02:13:22] <paul__c> I reckon you need to pad the smaller of the two to be safe.
[02:13:27] <jmkasunich> no I'm assuming that gcc will allocate enough space for the larger of the two structs
[02:16:34] <paul__c> Is 50uSec the fastest you can get a thread to run at ?
[02:17:11] <jmkasunich> that's just the default I stuck in the ini file... dates from when I was testing on a P233 and didn't want to have to worry about it
[02:18:04] <jmkasunich> actual execution times for base thread were about 4.6uS avg, 12uS max, servo was 6.2uS avg, 20uS max
[02:18:36] <jmkasunich> (on the BDI-4.20 box, 1.666G Sempron)
[02:19:45] <jmkasunich> the one on my TNG box is still happily running.. the lockups are definitely unique to 4.xx (or rtai3, or kernel 2.6, etc)
[02:21:21] <paul__c> yet the bdi-4 branch runs faultlessly - Throw in a null pointer, and it doesn't lock up.
[02:21:53] <jmkasunich> probably a bug in rtapi or hal... neither of those has ever been tested on the new stuff
[02:22:26] <jmkasunich> where "bug" might mean some API change that in the worst case could require rtai3_rtapi.c (but I hope not)
[02:22:32] <paul__c> rtapi could be tested with the bdi-4 branch without too much effort.
[02:23:12] <jmkasunich> I was also planning to do some standalone HAL tests (run say stepgen and siggen without the emc motion module)
[02:23:20] <paul__c> but then rtapi is just wrappers around rtai/rtlinux calls..
[02:23:33] <jmkasunich> motmod is by far the most complex part - if lockups happen even without it that gives it a clean bill of health
[02:25:09] <paul__c> areas to suspect.... multiply or divides on long longs
[02:25:27] <paul__c> or even long ints
[02:25:59] <jmkasunich> long ints are the same as ints aren't they (both 32 bits)?
[02:26:59] <jmkasunich> on that note.. one thing that I believe is different is the rt math lib
[02:28:21] <paul__c> do a diff between vesuvio and stromboli
[02:29:48] <jmkasunich> TNG build: configure: WARNING: Using glibc libm with mathstubs.
[02:29:52] <jmkasunich> 4.20 build: checking for kernel math support... ok, using RTAI's libm kernel module
[02:30:09] <jmkasunich> (although in that case I would have expected the 4.20 to be more reliable in realtime)
[02:33:54] <paul__c> I see math.h includes a pair of macros for converting ints to/from floats
[02:36:02] <paul__c> Right.. Diff'd the current math lib with Stromboli
[02:36:22] <paul__c> No significant differences.
[02:37:48] <jmkasunich> are you saying the version of RTAI on BDI-TNG has a RT math lib that is similar/identical to the one on BDI-4.20?
[02:38:00] <jmkasunich> if so, how come it's using glibc's libm?
[02:40:29] <paul__c> double check TNG - It should have a math module.
[02:43:11] <paul__c> and I'm off to bed.
[02:43:31] <jmkasunich2> I suspect that it has the lib, but configure isn't finding it
[06:05:31] <fenn> two items from harbor freight that may be of interest: 42184-6CAB AIR HOSE, 3/8" X 25', BLACK $3.49, and 42444-5UCB 5 PC. QUICK COUPLER BRASS SET $1.29
[06:05:55] <fenn> i got 10 of each :)
[06:06:05] <fenn> well, we'll see if they're back ordered or not
[08:06:05] <anonimasu> good day people
[08:08:15] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is installing solidedge
[08:43:46] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is wondering if he wants to bother trying to do anything with this oddball acme thread or whether he should just go buy a piece of 1/2"-10 and some nuts.
[08:44:39] <Phydbleep> It's a 3 start.. WTF were they smoking to make a 3 start?
[08:45:33] <Phydbleep> It' a 5/8"-8 3 start even..
[09:29:45] <Phydbleep> Has anyone used one of these or thought of it for the spindle in a pc board mill?
[09:29:47] <Phydbleep> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47869
[09:35:51] <fenn> i ordered one of those micro air grinders not two hours ago
[09:36:11] <fenn> possibly for use in a pc board mill
[09:36:26] <Phydbleep> Decided to live dangerously did you?
[09:37:05] <fenn> also got the trim router 44914
[09:37:33] <fenn> wish they made something that took 3/8" weldon shank endmills
[09:38:45] <Phydbleep> I have 4 nice pieces of acme thread i was going to use to build a 'small' 18"x18"x12" milling unit..
[09:39:03] <fenn> define "nice"
[09:39:24] <fenn> nevermind
[09:39:33] <fenn> i'm just gonna bitch about how 1/2"-10 is $1 a foot
[09:39:39] <Phydbleep> Clean, no rust, no wear..
[09:40:11] <Phydbleep> Unfortunately it's 5/8"-8, 3 start.
[09:41:01] <fenn> so that's effectively 5/8-2.66?
[09:41:14] <Phydbleep> I'd be happy with $1/ft, It's the $5/nut that kills me. :\
[09:41:27] <fenn> bah make your own out of delrin
[09:41:38] <fenn> like you was telling Jymmm the other day
[09:41:44] <Phydbleep> I want phoshor brionze or oilite.
[09:41:45] <fenn> or somebody was
[09:41:55] <Phydbleep> bronze
[09:42:24] <fenn> hmm.. you might be able to cut threads into a bushing with a homemade tap
[09:42:29] <fenn> then again maybe not
[09:42:49] <fenn> how many nuts do you need?
[09:43:11] <Phydbleep> I should be able to do it on the lathe.. I'll start the threads with a boring bar and finish them with the tap.
[09:43:49] <Phydbleep> X-4, Y-2, Z-2. :\
[09:46:05] <Phydbleep> Plus I can cheat and cast my own nuts with a former-core so the tap will start easily. :)
[09:47:10] <fenn> you can cast phosphor bronze?
[09:47:55] <Phydbleep> I can cast brass and I can tweak the alloy by adding copper/zinc/tin/etc..
[09:50:45] <fenn> hmmm... i have a "speed start" acme tap that looks like it's about 5/8"
[09:51:05] <fenn> came with an ebay auction.. i'll measure it, one sec
[09:55:49] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[09:56:57] <Phydbleep> fenn: It looks like you add 1%-8% phosphorus to the alloy to get phosphor bronze..
[10:00:06] <Phydbleep> I wonder if I could get away with substituting TSP (Tri-Sodium Phosphate)?
[10:00:36] <anonimasu> try it
[10:01:05] <anonimasu> :)
[10:01:09] <Phydbleep> But it'll be 20 years before I know if it worked. :)
[10:01:31] <anonimasu> you arent going to use your machine?
[10:02:26] <Phydbleep> I was going to build it for severe abuse and then just use it. :)
[10:02:49] <fenn> well the results are in
[10:03:04] <Phydbleep> fenn: The rabbit died?
[10:03:27] <fenn> it's a three start acme taper tap, major dia .642 minor .566 if my measurements are to be trusted
[10:03:36] <Phydbleep> fenn: Sorry, Couldn't resist.. OLD joke. :)
[10:03:47] <fenn> i'm not that old i guess :/
[10:04:12] <fenn> anyway, i've no use for the damn thing, do you want it?
[10:04:38] <Phydbleep> fenn: You have a 3 start 5/8" acme tap?
[10:04:44] <fenn> i guess
[10:04:58] <fenn> thread depth looks a little shallow
[10:05:09] <fenn> not that it matters in the end
[10:05:11] <Phydbleep> What's the pitch.. Lay the ruler on top and count the threads in an inch. :)
[10:05:16] <fenn> ah good point
[10:05:24] <fenn> gotta peel off more wax
[10:05:55] <Phydbleep> The threads will be better defined as you get toward the handle end.
[10:07:01] <fenn> exactly 3 tpi
[10:07:16] <fenn> so that's 1 pitch?
[10:07:17] <Phydbleep> ????????
[10:07:42] <Phydbleep> That's not a 3 start then..
[10:08:00] <fenn> there's definitely three threads on it
[10:08:13] <anonimasu> hm I found a place to shop for servos
[10:08:19] <anonimasu> http://www.allmotion.se/
[10:08:40] <Phydbleep> fenn: Got a webcam/camera?
[10:08:50] <fenn> yeah i'll photo 'er up
[10:09:26] <anonimasu> maybe
[10:10:22] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: I'm having rude thoughts about adding an encoder and real bearings to Chevy Lumia power seat motors. :)
[10:11:09] <anonimasu> heh
[10:11:18] <anonimasu> brb, getting a package
[10:11:56] <Phydbleep> They use a cable drive like a flex-dremel or a speedometer. :)
[10:14:57] <fenn> http://fenn.freeshell.org/camera/DCP_0333.JPG
[10:16:13] <Phydbleep> That's just rude looking.. Throw a towel over it. :)
[10:17:42] <Phydbleep> The threads on this line up perfectly with the 1/8" marks on the ruler. :\
[10:18:17] <fenn> oh they do do they
[10:18:49] <Phydbleep> 5/8"-3, 3 start would be 1" travel per rev.
[10:20:31] <Phydbleep> fenn: les might be interested in that tap, He was talking about high speed/precision leadscrews.
[10:21:07] <fenn> damn i was hoing my other weirdo tap would be the right one
[10:21:16] <fenn> hoping
[10:21:26] <Phydbleep> What's the other one?
[10:21:36] <fenn> 6 start .725 major dia
[10:21:43] <fenn> finer pitch
[10:21:58] <Phydbleep> tpi?
[10:22:47] <fenn> 9
[10:22:57] <Phydbleep> 9?
[10:23:00] <fenn> yup
[10:23:23] <Phydbleep> Screwy. :)
[10:24:04] <fenn> that's 3 pitch right
[10:24:31] <fenn> er no 1.5 pitch
[10:24:57] <Phydbleep> HIIK..
[10:26:59] <fenn> * fenn performs the heimlich maneuver on Phydbleep.
[10:27:51] <Phydbleep> (Hell If I Know) :)
[10:29:13] <anonimasu> :D
[10:32:32] <Phydbleep> $1.45/ft for 1/2"-10 acme here in town... $193.00 for nuts (only sold in boxes of 100)
[10:32:51] <Phydbleep> AJ :)
[10:33:10] <fenn> like anyone in their right mind would buy 100 acme nuts
[10:33:30] <Phydbleep> Hmmm.. so I should buy 2 boxes?
[10:34:11] <alex_joni> yo Fido
[10:34:15] <fenn> nah just get some ball screws from techno isel, eh
[10:34:39] <fenn> g'mornin alex
[10:35:14] <alex_joni> hello fenn ;)
[10:36:26] <Phydbleep> fenn: Well, Get over there with your credit card and order a set for me. :)
[10:37:34] <Phydbleep> McMaster is out of their fscking gourd... $17.76 for a 1/2"-10 acme coupling nut with a 2g fit. :[
[10:38:44] <fenn> so, what's wrong with delrin again?
[10:39:36] <alex_joni> alex_joni is now known as aj_away
[10:40:57] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[10:41:05] <Phydbleep> fenn: No delrin handy.. I can go out on the mesa with a sifter and a bucket and get brass for free.. $<10 in propane to cast lots of parts.
[10:41:13] <anonimasu> it costs too much for phyd
[10:41:15] <anonimasu> :/
[10:41:48] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep checks his wallet and finds $3 and a moth that starved to death.
[10:42:13] <fenn> you shouldn't have pets if you can't take care of them
[10:43:00] <Phydbleep> That wasn't a pet, it was a cat toy. :)
[10:43:17] <anonimasu> * anonimasu pokes solidedge
[10:43:33] <Phydbleep> And look.. It's a cat toy again. :)
[10:43:49] <anonimasu> no thin wall feature in my version..
[10:44:51] <anonimasu> too limited..
[10:47:44] <anonimasu> bleh
[10:48:21] <Phydbleep> Hmmmm. Get a piece of acme thread to make a tap, use that to make a die, use that to make core formers for casting nut blanks to run the tap through. :)
[10:48:26] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[10:48:39] <anonimasu> seems like the cad investment went up quite a bit high..
[10:48:53] <anonimasu> :~/
[10:49:17] <fenn> sounds like there is a need for a decent GPL cad/cam program
[10:49:32] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: Have you looked at Open-FX?
[10:50:28] <Phydbleep> http://www.openfx.org
[10:52:54] <fenn> i wonder if "kinematics based animation" means solid model simulation capability
[10:53:36] <Phydbleep> fenn: Yes. :)
[10:54:11] <Phydbleep> fenn: You can build a lathe or mill and move the bits around. :_
[10:54:13] <Phydbleep> :)
[10:55:34] <fenn> yeah but if i build an unbalanced mill will it tip over and fall?
[10:56:41] <Phydbleep> I don't know how gravity/mass work in that.. I used it to model things for another simulator.
[10:56:51] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: is is good?
[10:57:04] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: or rather, does it match solidworks?
[10:57:06] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: It's free and pretty easy to use.
[10:57:21] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has never used solidworks.
[10:57:25] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: well, I dont care about "free" :)
[10:58:49] <fenn> so many 3d modelers, so few CAD programs..
[10:58:59] <Phydbleep> The last semi-commercial 3-d package I used was milkshape.. Before that i was using MGI Extreme-3D
[10:59:29] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: it's for work.. so even if it ends up at a couple of $k's it'd not a big deal..
[11:00:42] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep beats the caps lock key into submission.
[11:00:50] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: does it match solidworks?
[11:00:52] <anonimasu> yet again.
[11:01:15] <Phydbleep> Yet again..
[11:01:18] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has never used solidworks.
[11:01:27] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: every used a modern parametric cad package?
[11:01:49] <anonimasu> that looks like a 3d modeller not a cad package..
[11:01:53] <Phydbleep> Done what? To Whom? for how many Oreo's?
[11:02:20] <anonimasu> err ever..
[11:02:56] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: I've never even used autocad. :)
[11:03:55] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: well openfx isnt a cad program
[11:04:02] <fenn> it doesn't help that you can't get a parametric 3d cad package for less than $500
[11:04:21] <anonimasu> if I could find one good under 2000$ it'd be nice..
[11:04:44] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep learned drafting way back when, when computers were things that filled a 2 car garage and wanted 440V/100A 3-phase..
[11:05:33] <fenn> anonimasu, what do you think of synergy?
[11:05:49] <anonimasu> fenn: it does not match my drawing style
[11:05:50] <Phydbleep> We used to use this now obsolete material called 'paper' and me made these colored marks on it with 'pencils'.. :)
[11:06:48] <fenn> seems like if anyone ever did make a GPL cad/cam package, it should have the "engine" and then multiple GUI's to make everyone happy
[11:08:39] <anonimasu> fenn: but the cad package is good.. but well, I cant draw in autocad.. the way you work dosent suit me at all
[11:10:22] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: I use the modelers because 99% of the time I can already see the part in 3-d in my head and I just need to show it to someone else. :)
[11:11:33] <fenn> yeah at least 3d modelers are based on 3d geometry and not 2d drafting stretched into 3d
[11:11:41] <Phydbleep> And I can't run autocad (or any of the clones) to save my ass.. I think in 3+D and autocad is counterintuitive to me.
[11:12:05] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: I need somthing for making/drawing up parts in.. in a efficient way..
[11:12:24] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: 3d->3d drafting is a efficient way to work..
[11:12:28] <anonimasu> err 2d->3d
[11:14:37] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... It's really funny, I can visualize an N dimensional matrix/manifold that takes a math major 16 hours of code to display on a crt..
[11:15:16] <anonimasu> hm.. but will that show the people building the mainfold the dimensions they need?
[11:18:47] <Phydbleep> Actually yeah, I was able to look at the display and tell him that the shape/form was wrong and that he had typoed two of the major variables and one of the minors.
[11:19:02] <fenn> FreeCAD sounds like it will be pretty good if it ever gets off the ground
[11:19:37] <Phydbleep> This guy just got his masters and has just been published in Nature as well.
[11:23:51] <Phydbleep> I've been torturing this poor guy for years because I can look at the physical aspects of something and rattle off figures that are within +/-5% of the correct answer..
[11:24:37] <Phydbleep> My last major act of sadism was to ask a question about the fundamental nature of magnets/magnetism that has 3 departments scratching their heads and plotting mayhem.
[11:25:53] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: well that dosent work when you build stuff..
[11:26:34] <Phydbleep> "Is magnetism an intrinsic part of the material, Or is it an extrinsic force that is focused by the material?"
[11:28:03] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: You'd be surprised how often an educated guess is close enough.. :)
[11:28:19] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[11:28:36] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep yawns..
[11:28:41] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: you would be surprised on how hard it is to build stuff without a good drawing..
[11:28:46] <anonimasu> :)
[11:29:23] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: Only if you're trying to get someone else to build it for you. :)
[11:29:45] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: I work at a place that builds stuff, so yes.
[11:30:55] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep remembers a 'lawn-mower' that do to a miscommunication ended up as a 'tree-mower'..
[11:31:18] <anonimasu> lol
[11:33:23] <fenn> opencascade looks even more promising than anything else i've seen yet
[11:34:08] <Phydbleep> 1/4" steel for the blade, Not 1/2".. How is that little motor supposed to swing that.. 3hp off, 8hp on..weld in some braces because the cutter deck taco'd..
[11:34:42] <anonimasu> heh
[11:35:30] <Phydbleep> Pretty soon it was mowing trees better than the tractor and all I wanted to mow was the fscking grass..
[11:36:22] <Phydbleep> Never give 3 redneck motorheads vague directions and expect them to fill in the blanks with common-sense. :)
[11:36:51] <anonimasu> bbl work
[11:43:23] <fenn> phydbleep look at http://www.opencascade.org/showroom/demos/ to see what a good cad program looks like :)
[11:48:45] <fenn> i especially like the 2d constraints demo.. wonder if they have 3d constraints too