#emc | Logs for 2005-04-26

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[00:12:19] <Jymmm> is that anything like Rip Van Wickle?
[01:22:09] <cradek> I was hoping for more of a blow-by-blow
[01:34:59] <Phydbleep> It might be hard to find a net terminal at a nudie-bar. :)
[01:39:33] <Jymmm> I hope if your at a nudie bar, that your NOT thinking about computers
[02:22:46] <A-L-P-H-A> help
[02:23:17] <A-L-P-H-A> if I under cut something, buy, oh say 0.002"... can I knarwl (sp) it, to bump up it's size? it's a bearing seat.
[02:24:18] <A-L-P-H-A> les would know! :)
[02:25:10] <A-L-P-H-A> well... right now, I could make a spacer to extend the neck, so that there is a spot where it's 0.5005", where Ican press fit the bearings.
[02:30:39] <A-L-P-H-A> so I am still alive.
[02:53:17] <Jymmm> under or over cut ?
[02:53:37] <Phydbleep> A-L-P-H-A: You mean knurl?
[02:53:42] <Jymmm> just remember... measure once, cut twice
[02:54:04] <Jymmm> then scrap and repeat
[03:27:41] <A-L-P-H-A> the bearing seat is like 0.499" :/ but if I move up 1.25" on the spindle, it's 0.5005" ~ 0.501"
[03:27:45] <A-L-P-H-A> argh!
[03:51:43] <Jymmm> tapered
[03:52:21] <Jymmm> something willy loose when being machined?
[03:52:25] <Jymmm> wiggle
[04:20:38] <Phydbleep> A-L-P-H-A: Freeze the bushing and measure it.
[04:21:57] <Phydbleep> Heat the bit you're making the seat from to machine it as well The htermal creep should help.
[04:22:03] <Phydbleep> thermal
[04:25:00] <A-L-P-H-A> Phydbleep?
[04:25:34] <A-L-P-H-A> I just pressed a spacer and two bearings onto the thing.
[04:25:51] <A-L-P-H-A> it's not going to come out... or atleast it'll be a giant pain in the ass to get it out.
[04:26:19] <A-L-P-H-A> had to put like 160 lbs of force to press the bearings on.
[04:26:31] <A-L-P-H-A> O dpm
[04:30:25] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A 160 lbs? you sure your not missing a zero.... 1600 lbs?!
[04:33:10] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm 160lbs... I had to use a 1.5ton arbor... well... my 160 lbs on the level on the 1.5ton arbor.
[04:33:34] <A-L-P-H-A> so, yeah, definately more than 160 lbs.
[04:33:47] <Phydbleep> A-L-P-H-A: 120F-150F metal means the part will shrink slightly when cool.. Real handy for doing bearing seats.
[04:34:30] <A-L-P-H-A> Phydbleep. I just pressed them on. The issue was that the beating seats were [the original position] was supposed to be 0.501" or 12.71mm.
[04:35:11] <A-L-P-H-A> but I ended up going under... 0.499". but the part higher up the neck of the spindle, was 0.5005-0.501"... so I just made a spacer, and pressed everything on together.
[04:35:51] <A-L-P-H-A> I now just have an extended neck for milling.:)
[04:35:54] <Phydbleep> 30k bearings?
[04:36:18] <A-L-P-H-A> 19k rpm bearings. or where these 23K rpm?
[04:36:22] <A-L-P-H-A> I forget.
[04:36:36] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep needs some 100k units.
[04:37:13] <Phydbleep> I'll probably end up with needle races for that.. :\
[05:16:17] <Jymmm> whats that site with the 60K rpm router video
[05:16:53] <Jymmm> dyna motion or something
[05:23:02] <Jymmm> logger_aj
[05:23:07] <Jymmm> logger_aj url
[05:23:07] <A-L-P-H-A> you find it?
[05:23:10] <Jymmm> no
[05:23:14] <A-L-P-H-A> !bookmark
[05:23:35] <Jymmm> !bookmark
[05:23:56] <A-L-P-H-A> logger_aj, bookmark
[05:23:57] <A-L-P-H-A> See http://193.226.12.129/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2005-04-26#T05-23-56
[05:23:57] <Jymmm> bah
[05:24:27] <Jymmm> wth?
[05:33:49] <Jymmm> 60,000 RPM spindle on this router video http://www.datrondynamics.com/ xxxxx
[05:35:10] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A ^^^^^
[05:36:14] <A-L-P-H-A> k
[05:40:27] <A-L-P-H-A> OMG, I need one of those.
[05:40:34] <Jymmm> lol
[05:40:58] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A only $46,800 USD
[05:41:24] <A-L-P-H-A> $4.5x my cavalier. $2.25x my grand AM gt.
[05:41:41] <Jymmm> only 99% more to go
[05:47:50] <A-L-P-H-A> man! everything good is "OPTIONS"
[05:58:40] <Jymmm> lol
[06:15:15] <A-L-P-H-A> I should be able to finish my spindle tomorrow.
[06:15:51] <Jymmm> cool, give it to me!
[06:17:54] <A-L-P-H-A> why? it's rated for like 20K rpm [well the bearings are]
[06:18:05] <Jymmm> that's it?
[06:18:06] <Phydbleep> A-L-P-H-A: When you're done with that I need a X/Y table. :)
[06:18:49] <A-L-P-H-A> I would like to find one of those motors they are using.
[06:19:06] <Phydbleep> A-L-P-H-A: I had a thought about bearings.. Turbo-charger bearings for a diesel truck.
[06:24:48] <A-L-P-H-A> Phydbleep, reallly how fast do you really need a spindle to go?
[06:25:54] <Jymmm> FINALLY!
[06:26:01] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm?
[06:26:17] <Jymmm> Can either of you figure out what rails or bearings are being used here --> http://volleyzoo.com/monster/images/Dscn0207.jpg
[06:26:33] <Jymmm> it looks like skatebearings, but I can't make out the rails
[06:26:43] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep goes 10X for abused bearings.. 100K bearings will get run at 10k an last almost foreever.
[06:28:00] <Phydbleep> Oh boy! Spindle motor by Harbor Freight.. :)
[06:28:39] <Phydbleep> the rails are round stock..
[06:29:12] <Phydbleep> If you look at the right edge of the spindle mount you can see the edge of the bearings.
[06:29:19] <A-L-P-H-A> the bearing in the router will die in 2 hours.
[06:29:51] <Jymmm> Come on guys... focus! bearings and rails. Phydbleep that's not JSUT round stock
[06:30:17] <Phydbleep> Standard 3 bearing "Y", not 120 degree though.
[06:30:59] <Phydbleep> Sealed bearings.. That's about all i see
[06:31:13] <Phydbleep> What am I supposed to be looking for?
[06:31:21] <Jymmm> that rail looks like this --> o-
[06:31:32] <A-L-P-H-A> that bearing design sucks arse.
[06:31:37] <Jymmm> look at the left edge
[06:32:39] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, it's aweful.
[06:32:51] <A-L-P-H-A> give me two weeks, and i'll sell one on ebay. with a better design.
[06:32:52] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A FOCUS on the rails
[06:32:59] <Jymmm> what are they
[06:33:13] <Phydbleep> looks like a 1/2 rod attached to a 3/8 square bar fro a space.
[06:33:16] <A-L-P-H-A> drillrod mounted to flat stock.
[06:33:18] <Phydbleep> spacer.
[06:33:34] <Phydbleep> Yeah, What he said. :)
[06:33:44] <Jymmm> that doesn't seem right though.... an aweful lot of work mounting that.
[06:35:05] <Jymmm> That's what it looks like, but do they even sell something like that?
[06:35:47] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, nope. it's called a mill + drill + tap.
[06:36:17] <Jymmm> too bad =)
[06:36:17] <A-L-P-H-A> I'd probably go with round oil bushings.
[06:36:31] <A-L-P-H-A> bronze oil impreg bushings.
[06:36:45] <A-L-P-H-A> 5/8" or maybe even 3/4" Nice heavy stuff.
[06:37:00] <A-L-P-H-A> on some PGS round stock.
[06:37:30] <A-L-P-H-A> with a bracket mounded for two units. locked down.
[06:37:34] <A-L-P-H-A> be so easy to make.
[06:44:49] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A did you check out those steppers I found?
[06:44:51] <Phydbleep> 1" drill rod, drill 3/4" deep and tap 1/2" NF every 4 inches..
[06:45:06] <A-L-P-H-A> 5/8"ID x 3/4OD" x 3/4"lenght Plain Sleeve Bearing = $0.57/each
[06:45:07] <A-L-P-H-A> 1
[06:45:13] <A-L-P-H-A> 1" drill rod = expensive.
[06:45:47] <Jymmm> Phydbleep not enough clearnace
[06:45:54] <Phydbleep> I nevre said it was cheap.. I was just thinking sturdy. :)
[06:45:56] <Jymmm> @ 120 degrees
[06:46:09] <A-L-P-H-A> Phydbleep, it's a freak'n HF router!
[06:46:16] <A-L-P-H-A> think of how sturdy it really needs to be.
[06:46:48] <Phydbleep> You should see what's left of my cheap die grinder. :)
[06:47:10] <Phydbleep> 1 collet and a bit of shaft..
[06:47:55] <A-L-P-H-A> 6ft of 1" drillrod $45.58
[06:47:57] <A-L-P-H-A> :/
[06:48:31] <Phydbleep> The motor in the stick-blender I got for the wife is almost as big as the one that was in the grinder.
[06:49:44] <Phydbleep> Neither one was really designed to last. :\
[06:51:16] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A where you find 6' drillrod for $46?
[06:51:54] <Phydbleep> US$ or CDN?
[06:52:00] <A-L-P-H-A> US
[06:52:08] <A-L-P-H-A> mcmaster
[06:52:25] <Jymmm> you sure 6' and not 3' ?
[06:52:33] <A-L-P-H-A> check out www.onlinemetals.com and call them to see if they have it in O1... it's pretty cheap there too.
[06:53:41] <A-L-P-H-A> mcmaster, part # 8890K576
[06:54:15] <A-L-P-H-A> logger_aj, bookmark
[06:54:15] <A-L-P-H-A> See http://193.226.12.129/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2005-04-26#T06-54-15
[06:56:46] <Jymmm> I found 12' for 78.48
[06:57:27] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, link would be good you know.
[07:04:23] <Phydbleep> A-L-P-H-A: See there.. You scared him off. :)
[08:10:20] <nevyn_> nevyn_ is now known as nevyn
[12:54:19] <rayh> Hi Guys.
[12:54:31] <Jymmm> hola
[12:54:35] <alex_joni> hello
[12:54:39] <SWPadnos> hiya
[12:54:46] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Fest
[12:54:53] <SWP_Fest> SWP_Fest is now known as SWPadnos
[12:54:57] <alex_joni> * alex_joni greets the fest_people
[12:55:37] <Jymmm> alex_joni (suck up)
[12:55:55] <alex_joni> Jymmm: don't make me tell you :D
[12:56:08] <Jymmm> alex_joni Go ahead punk, make my day! =)
[12:56:31] <alex_joni> heh
[12:57:25] <alex_joni> hey JMK
[12:58:30] <alex_joni> does redpoint work for you guys?
[12:58:36] <alex_joni> wiki.linuxcnc.org?
[12:59:22] <jmkasunich> yes
[12:59:52] <Jymmm> paul_c : WTH? nist.gov
[13:00:13] <alex_joni> Jymmm: fest is at NIST's facilities
[13:00:17] <Jymmm> oh
[13:00:20] <paul_c> ping rayh & Co...
[13:00:36] <Jymmm> NAMES, rught?
[13:00:39] <Jymmm> right
[13:00:47] <paul_c> not a chance...
[13:00:49] <alex_joni> heh.. JMK doesn't resolve
[13:00:59] <alex_joni> he's just an unknown IP number
[13:01:27] <alex_joni> in a big pool of anonymous numbers
[13:02:02] <alex_joni> paul_c: how's the FEST going?
[13:02:25] <Jymmm> paul_c : grab me a spare cesium clock, will ya?!
[13:02:42] <paul_c> nope.
[13:03:21] <Jymmm> (bastard =)
[13:03:46] <paul_c> yup - and I have the paperwork to prove it !
[13:03:49] <alex_joni> http://www.tion.ro/pubs/Bildserie/inundatie2/Bildseite22.shtml
[13:03:51] <Jymmm> rotf
[13:07:03] <Jymmm> So, is anything actually going on at fest, or just a bunch of semi-socialization?
[13:07:20] <jmkasunich> much discussion (technical and architectural)
[13:07:55] <jmkasunich> hopefully serious hands on work will get started today
[13:08:03] <Jymmm> cool
[13:11:06] <Jymmm> jmkasunich not being a smartass, but what are you considering "hands on" over there?
[13:11:09] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is showing his hands
[13:11:33] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands alex_joni gojo
[13:11:40] <alex_joni> gojo?
[13:11:47] <Jymmm> orange hand cleaner
[13:11:49] <SWPadnos> orange and pumice hand cleaner
[13:11:55] <alex_joni> heh
[13:12:00] <jmkasunich> coding
[13:12:08] <Jymmm> jmkasunich ah, ok.
[13:12:36] <Jymmm> jmkasunich If they start with "Hello World!" demand a refund
[13:15:04] <Jymmm> alex_joni http://www.dickblick.com/zz029/80/
[13:15:52] <Jymmm> alex_joni and they lie, use it with water =)
[13:24:43] <tonyp> good morning fest!
[13:29:56] <tonyp> rayh is who I had a question for
[13:32:44] <alex_joni> you just missed him
[13:32:55] <alex_joni> maybe somebody else can help?
[13:33:05] <tonyp> yeah,
[13:33:26] <tonyp> I dont think so.
[13:33:55] <tonyp> Maybe paul_c
[13:34:11] <tonyp> he may have made the disc I have a question about
[13:36:31] <alex_joni> tonyp: what's the problem? maybe I can help
[13:36:50] <tonyp> looking to get my limits working
[13:37:07] <alex_joni> hmm.. think I read some mails about that?
[13:37:16] <tonyp> yes
[13:37:47] <tonyp> 4.2 was suggested but I need to know if the code was altered to work for one switch per axis
[13:37:50] <alex_joni> right..so: what's still bothering you?
[13:38:01] <alex_joni> one switch for limits & homing?
[13:38:42] <tonyp> I was told rayh may have altered the code to make it work and dont want to dump everything just to find out it doesnt work
[13:38:46] <tonyp> yes one switch
[13:39:23] <alex_joni> tonyp: got a few minutes?
[13:39:30] <alex_joni> ehh.. here he is
[13:39:36] <tonyp> yes
[13:39:42] <alex_joni> rayh: tonyp was eager to ask you smthg
[13:39:49] <dave-e> morning rayh
[13:39:55] <rayh> rayh is now known as rayh_fest
[13:39:55] <tonyp> he's hiding from me
[13:39:57] <alex_joni> rayh: <tonyp> I was told rayh may have altered the code to make it work and dont want to dump everything just to find out it doesnt work
[13:40:02] <alex_joni> heh
[13:40:05] <rayh_fest> Hi guys. Tony.
[13:40:06] <alex_joni> don't think so
[13:40:11] <rayh_fest> What's happening?
[13:40:13] <tonyp> bugging you again
[13:40:38] <tonyp> did you alter the code to make the sm limits work or do they work straight out of the box
[13:40:51] <rayh_fest> No problem. We just made some choices and I've got a bit of time.
[13:41:10] <rayh_fest> They are a part of both mini and bpt definitions.
[13:41:20] <rayh_fest> Are you not able to use them.
[13:41:57] <tonyp> ok, paul_c said you may have changed something and I didn't want to redo my computer until I was sure
[13:42:37] <paul_c> It was just using one of the limit switches to home off..
[13:42:52] <paul_c> So you still need two switches.
[13:43:14] <tonyp> rayh?
[13:43:30] <rayh_fest> Yea. We've got some sort of cannel problem.
[13:43:39] <rayh_fest> not to mention spelling
[13:43:49] <tonyp> spelling can be fixed
[13:43:56] <rayh_fest> No there were not supposed to be any changes to limits and homes.
[13:44:31] <tonyp> so I still can use one switch for limit and home
[13:44:36] <rayh_fest> The SM version did a small change to ease homing but I don't believe it is still in there.
[13:44:40] <rayh_fest> You should be able to.
[13:45:13] <tonyp> the change if I remember was to look for the index pulse rather than the switch?
[13:45:15] <les> hi fest guys
[13:45:24] <tonyp> morning les
[13:45:37] <tonyp> Im not at fest though
[13:45:44] <tonyp> would just be in the way
[13:45:55] <les> still working on limit with the motenc?
[13:46:14] <les> or is it stepper
[13:46:18] <les> I forgot
[13:46:20] <rayh_fest> tonyp: Probably the neg limit is the pin to use.
[13:46:29] <tonyp> stepper
[13:46:34] <les> k
[13:46:37] <tonyp> ok.
[13:46:45] <alex_joni> tonyp: any issues on trying emc2?
[13:47:01] <tonyp> going to do that when I get off line
[13:47:10] <tonyp> have a copy ready to go
[13:47:22] <martin> martin is now known as Imperator_
[13:47:33] <les> hi martin
[13:48:10] <alex_joni> hey Martin
[13:48:13] <tonyp> Rayh, I thought you said yesterday to tie all three together
[13:48:14] <rayh_fest> Fest is considering a move to consolidate future dev to EMC2
[13:48:36] <rayh_fest> Any thoughts?
[13:49:01] <les> well seems reasonable
[13:49:03] <rayh_fest> I did but paul reminded me that the neg limit is handled in a different way for homing.
[13:49:42] <tonyp> so where do I solder the 5v input wire. Please be specific
[13:49:46] <tonyp> I
[13:49:57] <rayh_fest> The EMC2 thought is to make it capable for steppers and servos and set up some standard scripts to produce a bpt or mini personality.
[13:50:27] <rayh_fest> tonyp: This wire is the return from your prox?
[13:50:44] <tonyp> yes
[13:51:06] <Imperator_> alex_joni: are you arround ???
[13:51:17] <alex_joni> yup
[13:51:22] <les> any fundamental problem with transfering SQ to emc2?
[13:51:23] <rayh_fest> Pin 13 is the minus limit.
[13:51:41] <rayh_fest> Yes.
[13:51:41] <alex_joni> les: don't think so
[13:51:45] <paul_c> Sq is only three axis
[13:51:48] <alex_joni> ahhh
[13:51:50] <alex_joni> darn
[13:51:52] <alex_joni> then yes
[13:51:53] <alex_joni> ;)
[13:51:54] <les> yes unfortunately
[13:51:56] <tonyp> Thank you, I will put the wire there and hop I don't blow things up.
[13:51:56] <rayh_fest> We talked about SQ and the three axis limit.
[13:52:16] <alex_joni> is a SQ capable of 6 axis imaginable?
[13:52:18] <rayh_fest> The prox is running on 5 volt?
[13:52:43] <tonyp> no, kicking a relay to send the 5v
[13:52:49] <tonyp> with a resister to make sure
[13:53:11] <alex_joni> tonyp: put some limiting diodes to be sure
[13:53:28] <les> so sq->emc2 is a no I guess
[13:53:30] <rayh_fest> alex_joni: My imagination is rather limited in trajectory planning.
[13:53:33] <les> unfortunate
[13:53:36] <tonyp> I'm just a lowly toolmaker, Im not good at this stuf
[13:53:51] <alex_joni> * alex_joni joins rayh_fest's limit of imagination on TP
[13:54:13] <alex_joni> les: might work on 3 axis... but that's not a solution IMO
[13:54:16] <rayh_fest> No problem tony. If all else fails, I'll be back by during the second week of next month.
[13:54:51] <tonyp> Im going to work to dump the computer. thanks alot. will let you know
[13:55:01] <rayh_fest> les: There is support for the capabilities of SQ
[13:55:41] <tonyp> have fun in DC guys. Dont just work, play a little!
[13:55:45] <rayh_fest> It may take a bit but your Traj issues are right up there on the list.
[13:55:51] <rayh_fest> Yea right.
[13:56:23] <les> well i'm all eyes.
[13:56:59] <Imperator_> alex_joni: sorry that we disappeared yesturday, but they shut down internet connection at 5 p.m.
[13:57:39] <rayh_fest> IMO top priority is to migrate the capabilies currently available with EMC
[13:57:52] <rayh_fest> to the EMC2 branch asap.
[13:58:34] <les> Had a short discussion with Till about something simpler to replace tp and tc
[13:58:34] <dave-e> ah...emc-list just came alive again
[13:58:48] <les> He would like to do that
[13:58:51] <rayh_fest> Hi Dave.
[13:58:57] <dave-e> hi ray
[13:59:12] <dave-e> so what is SQ?
[13:59:22] <rayh_fest> Ah segmentque
[13:59:29] <alex_joni> ue
[13:59:32] <dave-e> ah duh....
[13:59:46] <alex_joni> Imperator_: no sweat
[14:02:55] <les> did anyone see my comments to till on the dev list?
[14:03:08] <les> about the purpose of cubic.c?
[14:03:21] <les> wanted to know if I was correct
[14:04:58] <les> i.e if emc has a cubic sub interpolator why is it so jerky?
[14:10:19] <dave-e> les...how high (in order) can you go and still have enough computational power?...does that really do any good?
[14:10:47] <les> dave prob quintic these days
[14:10:55] <les> no need to go further
[14:11:01] <dave-e> k
[14:11:22] <dave-e> anyone tried it?
[14:11:42] <les> quintic is the lowest order that can be symetrical and jerk free
[14:12:09] <dave-e> I'll have to take your word for it
[14:12:11] <les> quintic is common in controls, but of course not with emc.
[14:12:46] <les> a lot of floating point math has to be done....
[14:12:47] <les> but
[14:12:53] <les> not in real time
[14:13:05] <dave-e> well that helps
[14:13:24] <dave-e> you can precompute?
[14:13:28] <les> no TP really has to be hard RT
[14:13:50] <dave-e> lookahead?
[14:13:55] <les> yes dave...a tp just changes one list of motion commands to another
[14:14:24] <les> quintic requires min 6 pt lookahead
[14:14:45] <dave-e> and does some smoothing in the process?
[14:14:50] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes away for a while
[14:14:54] <alex_joni> a short while
[14:15:07] <les> A tp's queue could even be stored in a file.
[14:15:13] <les> but it might be HUGE
[14:16:33] <dave-e> indeed
[14:16:33] <dave-e> so how much of the tp needs to change to do this?
[14:16:33] <les> there are some issues with non causal stuff like feed or in the middle of a run etc
[14:16:46] <dave-e> nothing is ever simple
[14:17:42] <les> the emc tp is done in RT
[14:17:57] <les> which is a bit computationally intensive
[14:18:07] <dave-e> but doesn't have to be?
[14:18:17] <les> no it does not
[14:18:41] <dave-e> does it get any easier if one goes non-rt
[14:19:08] <les> no having it all rt is prob simpler to write I imagine
[14:19:26] <dave-e> smaller queue
[14:19:35] <les> yes
[14:20:51] <dave-e> ray you still around?
[14:21:20] <les> I have studied TP math a bunch....pity I can't code in rt linux heh
[14:22:03] <dave-e> Oh...I think you could do that...
[14:22:15] <les> they have prob vanished to get some work done
[14:22:40] <dave-e> C is just a step by step process
[14:23:05] <les> I have only written dos based c programs
[14:23:10] <dave-e> but only one level above machine code. <grin>
[14:23:15] <les> digital filters...etc
[14:23:38] <dave-e> not much different, just a lot longer
[14:24:13] <les> yeah I think the longest I have done in c is a couple thousand lines or something
[14:24:44] <dave-e> I cut off at about 1K and that was all simple chemical calcs
[14:25:35] <dave-e> but then divide and conquer is the only way to write long programs anyway
[14:25:37] <les> c I can do...I just don't know the ins and outs of a RT linux based os
[14:26:14] <dave-e> I'm sure you could get help with that
[14:26:27] <les> yes
[14:26:40] <dave-e> so what are you waiting for?
[14:26:47] <les> heh
[14:26:52] <les> paul to get here
[14:26:59] <dave-e> sounds good
[14:27:04] <dave-e> that might do it
[14:27:31] <les> well I want to beat the hell out of sq....
[14:27:31] <dave-e> of course if Till's student will do this.....
[14:28:19] <dave-e> gotta go get my walk in for today....and then convert more steel into chips
[14:28:28] <les> I have some decisions to make about commercialising emc as a control on a product
[14:28:39] <dave-e> have fun
[14:28:46] <dave-e> catch you later.
[14:28:52] <les> k later
[14:38:02] <narnia> so what is happening in em-fest land?
[15:18:11] <les> they were here earlier but vanished to do some work I guess
[15:18:32] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is laughing his butt off
[15:18:37] <alex_joni> http://darwinawards.com/
[15:37:39] <alex_joni> pretty quiet around here
[15:41:23] <alex_joni> les: still around?
[15:43:14] <alex_joni> les: from http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/part3/sourcefiles.html I think what you said in that mails is pretty ok
[15:43:18] <alex_joni> regarding cubic.c
[15:44:01] <alex_joni> * alex_joni found a good paper to read: http://batman.mech.ubc.ca/~ial/publication/theses/sonja.pdf
[15:56:55] <dave-e> les...I had to google sonja.pdf to get the paper for some reason I could not get alex_joni's link to work although it looks the same
[16:03:57] <rayh_fest> Shops tour.
[17:06:22] <rayh_fest> We're back...
[19:11:22] <Jymmm> rayh_fest WooHoo! Where's are "All we got was this lousy tshirt"?
[19:25:02] <Jymmm> Acme threaded rod.. 1/2-2 ?!
[20:16:10] <alex_joni> greetings
[20:16:13] <alex_joni> anyone around?
[20:16:22] <Jymmm> * Jymmm is anyone
[20:18:16] <Jymmm> * Jymmm waves to alex_joni
[20:19:07] <alex_joni> * alex_joni waves back
[20:19:46] <Jymmm> alex_joni have you ever heard of acme threaded rod 1/2"-2 ?
[20:19:54] <alex_joni> nope
[20:19:55] <alex_joni> ;)
[20:20:01] <alex_joni> I'm not good with ''
[20:20:02] <alex_joni> "
[20:20:20] <Jymmm> diameter doesn't matter... 2 TPI
[20:20:48] <alex_joni> machining is not my field
[20:20:57] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[20:36:14] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: My old SouthBend has 2TPI as a standard threading pitch...
[20:38:47] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRAR?PMSECT=451
[20:39:12] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: You'll only get it in right-hand though.
[20:40:30] <Phydbleep> $10/ft steel, $17/ft stainless steel.
[20:42:26] <Phydbleep> Cheese it! He's from a .gov. :)
[20:42:34] <Phydbleep> Hehehe.. :)
[20:42:39] <alex_joni> they all are
[20:42:55] <alex_joni> Fido: FEST is beeing held at NIST.gov right now
[20:42:57] <alex_joni> this week
[20:45:18] <Phydbleep> As long as they don't classify emc as a "national security" precaution, Let them party where they want. :)
[20:50:14] <alex_joni> heh.. yeah
[20:50:54] <alex_joni> les: around?
[21:04:01] <alex_joni> hey rayh
[21:04:16] <rayh> Hi alex
[21:04:21] <alex_joni> how's it going?
[21:04:32] <rayh> A bit hotright now.
[21:04:40] <alex_joni> hot is good
[21:04:42] <rayh> But I think that we are getting past the issue.
[21:05:02] <paul_c> * paul_c & rayh have the nomex to hand ;)
[21:05:05] <rayh> We are trying to join bdi4.xx and emc2 head.
[21:05:15] <cradek> yay
[21:05:20] <alex_joni> what's a nomex?
[21:05:28] <alex_joni> rayh: that sounds great
[21:05:38] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders what the outcome will be
[21:05:39] <alex_joni> :D
[21:06:06] <cradek> the outcome will probably be that I can no longer build it on rtlinux/2.4
[21:06:11] <rayh> We have agreed that we will produce one code base.
[21:06:12] <paul_c> alex_joni: nomex is a fire resistant material..
[21:06:19] <alex_joni> paul_c: thx
[21:06:27] <alex_joni> cradek: get a 2.0.129 machine
[21:06:27] <alex_joni> :D
[21:06:30] <rayh> We are expecting to support 2.4 and 2.6
[21:06:35] <cradek> oh good.
[21:07:00] <paul_c> 2.4 support will not be dropped if I have anything to do with it.
[21:07:16] <cradek> oh good.
[21:07:29] <alex_joni> * alex_joni joins the oh good
[21:07:47] <paul_c> * paul_c still uses 2.4.xx for some things....
[21:08:05] <jmkasunich> cradek: the issue is kbuild... support for non kbuild systems may get dropped eventually
[21:08:18] <jmkasunich> 2.4.27+ has kbuild
[21:08:24] <cradek> the only thing I know about kbuild is that I don't have it
[21:08:41] <alex_joni> cradek: but you might add it easily
[21:08:47] <cradek> but rtlinux won't work with a newer kernel.
[21:08:48] <alex_joni> at least I think so
[21:08:57] <alex_joni> rtlinux works on 2.4
[21:09:01] <paul_c> * paul_c slaps alex_joni with a wet kipper ;}
[21:09:06] <cradek> not 2.4.27+.
[21:09:18] <alex_joni> * alex_joni enjoys it
[21:09:48] <alex_joni> * alex_joni pulls the plug from paul_c's network connection
[21:10:08] <cradek> it has patches for up to 2.4.20
[21:10:15] <cradek> (which is the one I use)
[21:10:33] <Jymmm> Phydbleep I saw that on msc, but never heard of such thing. Seems too tight
[21:13:30] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: It neds up looking like a twisted piece of flat-stock. :)
[21:13:35] <Phydbleep> endds
[21:15:51] <Jymmm> Phydbleep ah, ok. dont seem reliable
[21:16:09] <Jymmm> YOu guys GOTTA watch the travel channel right now!
[21:34:21] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep prefers his food not to protest or fight back too much..
[21:34:33] <alex_joni> hmm.. stick a fork in it
[21:34:38] <alex_joni> till it stops protesting
[21:35:00] <Jymmm> alex_joni : The beating frogs heart wasn't fighting back.
[21:35:06] <Phydbleep> Anything I eat has to be non-moving or at least consenting. :)
[21:35:33] <alex_joni> there goes the net @ NIST
[21:35:35] <alex_joni> :D
[21:36:03] <Phydbleep> Speaking of frogs.. Did you see that there's still frogs exploding in Germany?
[21:36:30] <alex_joni> hmmm
[21:36:42] <Jymmm> terrorist frogs?
[21:37:05] <alex_joni> meep?
[21:37:11] <anonimasu> ;)
[21:37:14] <Jymmm> meep?
[21:37:30] <robin_sz> indeed
[21:37:34] <robin_sz> meep!
[21:37:37] <alex_joni> meepetymeep
[21:37:49] <robin_sz> so, any news from the festering masses?
[21:38:06] <robin_sz> or is that festing?
[21:38:08] <alex_joni> yeah.. some
[21:38:15] <robin_sz> no, wait, lets stick with festering.
[21:38:17] <Phydbleep> They're still passing laws?
[21:38:18] <alex_joni> good it's not fisting ;)
[21:38:38] <robin_sz> hmmm ...
[21:38:44] <robin_sz> well I saw this film once ...
[21:38:55] <robin_sz> but, lets leave that
[21:39:00] <alex_joni> lol
[21:39:17] <anonimasu> * anonimasu hides
[21:39:20] <alex_joni> don't do the quacky goat thing again
[21:39:20] <alex_joni> :D
[21:39:29] <robin_sz> heh :)
[21:39:41] <alex_joni> was enough for this year
[21:39:53] <robin_sz> yeah, its pretty bad.
[21:40:13] <robin_sz> maybe even worse than tubgirl ...
[21:40:21] <alex_joni> that's debateable
[21:40:33] <alex_joni> * alex_joni still wonders if the tubgirl wanted to do that...
[21:40:50] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep can do a decent impersonation of an elephant or a plum tree... :)
[21:41:54] <robin_sz> saw a *nice* mill today
[21:42:00] <robin_sz> Hass mini-mill
[21:42:11] <robin_sz> very neat little VMC
[21:42:50] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[21:42:52] <anonimasu> very expensive
[21:42:58] <robin_sz> how much?
[21:43:04] <anonimasu> I cant remember...
[21:43:18] <anonimasu> just that it's too much..
[21:43:18] <robin_sz> the guy had just spent 4K on tooling and 3k on a vice
[21:43:44] <Jymmm> Mmmmmmmm Bat Soup!
[21:43:54] <robin_sz> 10 tool changer ...
[21:43:57] <robin_sz> thats nice
[21:44:15] <Jymmm> 1) Catch your Bat 2) Give to Chef to cook for you
[21:44:29] <robin_sz> not in the UK you dont
[21:44:29] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: You should spent that money on tools instead of pandering to your baser instincts. :)
[21:44:39] <robin_sz> nah
[21:44:47] <robin_sz> lasering is looking gooooood
[21:45:03] <Jymmm> my bad... Stir Fried Bat
[21:45:08] <Jymmm> not soup
[21:45:25] <robin_sz> got a nice new dell today
[21:45:50] <robin_sz> 2.8 P4, 17" monitor, etc ...
[21:45:55] <robin_sz> 209 GBP
[21:46:03] <robin_sz> whats that? 380 USD?
[21:46:06] <robin_sz> less?
[21:46:11] <Phydbleep> Not tooo shabby. :)
[21:46:28] <robin_sz> just an office desktop
[21:47:13] <robin_sz> I was tempted to plug a colleague into the mains for an hour because of his "you cant run business applications on a celeron" rant ..
[21:47:32] <robin_sz> what an arsewit.
[21:47:42] <alex_joni> robin: did you have some outage today?
[21:47:48] <robin_sz> no ...
[21:47:51] <robin_sz> dont think so ..
[21:47:52] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: Do it at his house where it goes on his meter?
[21:47:54] <robin_sz> wait(1)
[21:48:02] <alex_joni> didn't work at noon
[21:48:27] <robin_sz> [robin@quacky robin]$ uptime
[21:48:27] <robin_sz> 10:48pm up 37 days, 16:49, 1 user, load average: 2.71, 2.22, 1.97
[21:48:42] <alex_joni> maybe link loss?
[21:48:56] <alex_joni> redpoint.co.uk didn't work
[21:49:02] <Phydbleep> 15:57:22 up 44 days, 23:06, 5 users, load average: 0.09, 0.06, 0.01 :รพ
[21:49:02] <alex_joni> and quacky too
[21:49:15] <robin_sz> redpoint.org.uk
[21:49:27] <robin_sz> yes, but where did the link fail,
[21:49:33] <robin_sz> you tracerouted it?
[21:49:47] <alex_joni> didn't have time to investigate
[21:49:51] <robin_sz> 'k
[21:50:00] <alex_joni> unfortunately
[21:50:10] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: Give me an IP and I can try to traceroute it from here
[21:50:23] <robin_sz> I get an SMS if another box in telehouse london cant see quacky
[21:50:27] <alex_joni> main:~ # uptime
[21:50:29] <alex_joni> 12:45am up 54 days, 12:08, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
[21:50:30] <robin_sz> Phydbleep: well, its working now ...
[21:51:01] <robin_sz> alex_joni: I got quacky up to over a year, before a >1hour power outage sank the ups a few weeks ago
[21:51:06] <alex_joni> main:~ # uname -a
[21:51:06] <alex_joni> Linux main 2.2.13 #1 Mon Nov 8 15:51:29 CET 1999 i686 unknown
[21:51:13] <alex_joni> same here
[21:51:25] <robin_sz> my best yets is 3 years odd
[21:51:38] <alex_joni> mine is about 1 year
[21:51:44] <alex_joni> because of tight HW budget
[21:51:46] <alex_joni> ;)
[21:51:51] <robin_sz> heh
[21:51:58] <alex_joni> can't expand in advance as much as I'd want to
[21:52:15] <robin_sz> hot plug scsi helps
[21:52:27] <alex_joni> yeah... that's expensive :P
[21:52:32] <robin_sz> well, no
[21:52:33] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is still running all <1.7 Ghz machines.
[21:52:38] <alex_joni> it is here
[21:52:43] <robin_sz> you just use standard scsi and chicken blood
[21:52:57] <Jymmm> robin_sz s/chicken/cat/
[21:53:01] <robin_sz> standard scsi hotplugs fine if you are brave
[21:53:07] <alex_joni> proxy:~ # cat /proc/cpuinfo
[21:53:07] <alex_joni> processor : 0
[21:53:07] <alex_joni> vendor_id : GenuineIntel
[21:53:07] <alex_joni> cpu family : 5
[21:53:07] <alex_joni> model : 2
[21:53:07] <alex_joni> model name : Pentium 75 - 200
[21:53:11] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: That's a "rubber chicken" not "chicken blood".. :)
[21:53:20] <alex_joni> stepping : 12
[21:53:20] <alex_joni> cpu MHz : 132.956
[21:53:20] <alex_joni> fdiv_bug : no
[21:53:20] <alex_joni> hlt_bug : no
[21:53:20] <alex_joni> f00f_bug : yes
[21:53:20] <alex_joni> coma_bug : no
[21:53:42] <alex_joni> how about this crappy machine? ;)
[21:54:30] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: Sorry, I thought you were bemoaning the sad state of your router. :)
[21:54:34] <anonimasu> heh
[21:54:46] <alex_joni> it runs perfectly ;)
[21:54:55] <alex_joni> was a bit tough to install
[21:54:55] <anonimasu> # uptime
[21:54:55] <anonimasu> 9:44AM up 140 days, 6:28, 3 users, load averages: 0.23, 0.14, 0.09
[21:54:58] <anonimasu> ^_^
[21:55:19] <Phydbleep> vendor_id : AuthenticAMD
[21:55:19] <Phydbleep> cpu family : 6
[21:55:19] <Phydbleep> model : 2
[21:55:20] <Phydbleep> model name : AMD Athlon(tm) Processor
[21:55:20] <Phydbleep> stepping : 2
[21:55:20] <Phydbleep> cpu MHz : 956.918
[21:55:22] <Phydbleep> cache size : 512 KB
[21:55:53] <Phydbleep> That's my router/firewall
[21:55:56] <robin_sz> processor: 3
[21:55:56] <robin_sz> vendor_id: GenuineIntel
[21:55:56] <robin_sz> cpu family: 15
[21:55:56] <robin_sz> model: 4
[21:55:56] <robin_sz> model name: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 2.80GHz
[21:55:57] <robin_sz> stepping: 1
[21:55:59] <robin_sz> cpu MHz: 2793.076
[21:56:01] <robin_sz> cache size: 1024 KB
[21:56:19] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: yeah, But that's not your router. :)
[21:56:48] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands robin_sz some durian fruit!
[21:56:51] <Phydbleep> Or if It is I'll trade you it for my desktop machine. :)
[21:58:50] <robin_sz> true ... but if you were truly observant .. you'd notice the "processor : 3"
[21:58:59] <robin_sz> one Xeon is never enough ;)
[21:59:14] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: I did.. That's why I offered to trade. :)
[21:59:17] <Jymmm> robin_sz come on, only three?
[21:59:19] <Phydbleep> 4
[21:59:26] <Phydbleep> 0,1,2,3
[21:59:39] <robin_sz> Jymmm: if you look at the opther osts, you'll see they all start at 0
[22:00:03] <robin_sz> osts?
[22:00:05] <Jymmm> robin_sz I'm just razzing ya =)
[22:00:20] <robin_sz> *sure* you are ... ;)
[22:01:39] <robin_sz> damn,
[22:01:42] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed
[22:01:45] <alex_joni> night guys
[22:02:00] <Phydbleep> G'night alex_joni :)
[22:02:03] <robin_sz> fscking bill gates is actually getting half decent at some of this software
[22:02:06] <robin_sz> night alex_joni
[22:02:22] <alex_joni> [01:02] * alex_joni goes to bed
[22:02:30] <alex_joni> I'll regret this in the morning... :(
[22:02:34] <robin_sz> no
[22:02:40] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep throws the TV on Cartoon Network where the kid can watch Megas..
[22:02:44] <robin_sz> I usually stay up til gon 2am
[22:02:50] <robin_sz> 3am sometimes
[22:02:54] <alex_joni> yeah.. but do you go to work @ 0800?
[22:03:01] <robin_sz> worse
[22:03:04] <robin_sz> I have children
[22:03:07] <alex_joni> lol
[22:03:40] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has a 3-1/2 year old daughter that want to be a motorhead..
[22:03:53] <robin_sz> anyway .. new PC, first remove AOL, and a zillion other pre-installed internet connections and crud
[22:04:05] <Phydbleep> This is going to be scary in a couple of years.
[22:04:06] <Jymmm> "Home of the FREE 72 oz Steak"
[22:04:07] <robin_sz> install firefox, thunderbird open office
[22:04:20] <Jymmm> Phydbleep Just wait till she's 13yo
[22:04:37] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: Lite-Step and XP-Lite to cure most of windows?
[22:04:54] <robin_sz> now ... windows networking used to be more "windows notworking"
[22:05:29] <robin_sz> but its pretty good, it discovered the shared printer on my wifes machine (which it found all on its own)
[22:05:46] <robin_sz> and the FAX modem as a fax printer was found and configured in a snap
[22:06:24] <robin_sz> XP-Lite?
[22:06:32] <Jymmm> robin_sz : Heh, I'm actually gettign ready to install NetBios
[22:07:10] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: XP-Lite.. Lets you rip out .. Outlook, IE, Messenger, bunch of other useless bloated crap.
[22:07:22] <Jymmm> Xp-Lite?
[22:07:36] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has 4 of 83 components installed for XP.
[22:07:42] <robin_sz> hmmm
[22:07:52] <robin_sz> sounds good
[22:08:07] <robin_sz> but I dont know jack shjt about windows
[22:08:15] <robin_sz> I'd probabyl rip out the useful stuff
[22:08:27] <Jymmm> robin_sz not much of that
[22:08:35] <Phydbleep> ROFL!
[22:08:46] <robin_sz> well,
[22:08:48] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: He is right you know. :)
[22:08:57] <robin_sz> I have to say, XP is actually OK
[22:09:21] <Jymmm> robin_sz I reverted back to 2k from XP on one muachine so far
[22:09:35] <robin_sz> never seen 2k
[22:09:40] <robin_sz> I saw 95
[22:09:40] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: Run XP-Lite, install Lite-Step, and slap on Cygwin for a nice finshed X layer. :)_
[22:09:56] <robin_sz> then just left well alone until XP arrived
[22:10:06] <robin_sz> oh, id never install cygwin
[22:10:14] <Jymmm> robin_sz XP has bells and whistles, but also has a *LOT* of unnecassary bullshit too.
[22:10:38] <robin_sz> cygwin make no sense to me
[22:10:44] <Jymmm> robin_sz remote desktop is enabled by default, so is many other thigns as well.
[22:10:48] <Phydbleep> Hehehe.. I saw what a mess the WFW stuff was and went from DOS6.22 to linux. :)
[22:10:54] <robin_sz> when I want a posix shell ... I use linux
[22:11:18] <Jymmm> Phydbleep WFW was easy
[22:11:25] <robin_sz> it sucked
[22:11:38] <robin_sz> it didnt even work
[22:11:43] <Phydbleep> I have to keep at least 1 partially windows box around for compatibility...
[22:11:50] <Jymmm> Hell, I still have dos network floppies I use
[22:12:16] <Jymmm> boot from the fdd and you have network sharing
[22:12:28] <Jymmm> or a file share, either one.
[22:12:40] <robin_sz> nah
[22:12:46] <robin_sz> I have linux
[22:12:53] <robin_sz> why would I want DOS?
[22:13:01] <robin_sz> linux for fun
[22:13:06] <robin_sz> and web stuff
[22:13:17] <robin_sz> XP for desktop cad /cam
[22:13:25] <Jymmm> robin_sz It's not for everyone, but it works for me. Especially for S&R type stuff.
[22:13:36] <robin_sz> S&R?
[22:13:36] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... I have tftp enabled here for diskless systems.. Slap a boot floppy in anything with x86 and boot linux .:)
[22:13:43] <Jymmm> robin_sz Search and Rescue
[22:14:09] <robin_sz> you keep losing your PC?
[22:14:35] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: VFD?
[22:14:36] <Jymmm> robin_sz No, during use in natural disasters
[22:14:46] <Jymmm> natural/man made
[22:14:52] <robin_sz> oh, like GW winning an election?
[22:15:04] <Jymmm> yeah, like that
[22:15:11] <Jymmm> Phydbleep VFD?
[22:15:13] <robin_sz> we call it "RAYNET"
[22:15:27] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: Volunteer fire dept.
[22:15:51] <Jymmm> Phydbleep Ham Operator... RACES and ARES
[22:16:12] <robin_sz> Phydbleep: no, it radio enthusiasts who set up control and comms stations in the event of a major disaster
[22:16:28] <robin_sz> Phydbleep: they havent figured out that cellphoens have been invented yet
[22:16:44] <anonimasu> hm, if a disaster happens cellphones wont work..
[22:16:52] <Jymmm> robin_sz what anonimasu said
[22:16:56] <anonimasu> the nets cant support nearly enough traffic at once..
[22:17:06] <robin_sz> not true
[22:17:13] <anonimasu> it's true..
[22:17:16] <Jymmm> Even the 911 Dispatch center uses MS-DOS
[22:17:20] <robin_sz> remember the nets give priority to emergency services traffic
[22:17:21] <Jymmm> robin_sz it's VERY true.
[22:17:23] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:17:35] <anonimasu> robin_sz: but thoose arent the only ones helping out in a disaster..
[22:17:37] <robin_sz> so they will drop normal users
[22:17:43] <robin_sz> anonimasu: they are
[22:17:56] <Jymmm> robin_sz Cellphones and Trunking radio systems go down during most disasters.
[22:18:06] <anonimasu> robin_sz: you are wrong they do go down..
[22:18:17] <anonimasu> robin_sz: maybe not if you have 15 masts closely..
[22:18:25] <Jymmm> they are all land-line based communications - and completely unreliable
[22:18:38] <robin_sz> nope
[22:18:41] <robin_sz> not land line
[22:18:45] <robin_sz> not in the UK anyway
[22:18:53] <Jymmm> robin_sz cellphones are landline
[22:18:57] <robin_sz> dishes at 37G mainly
[22:18:59] <Jymmm> cell phone sites
[22:19:06] <anonimasu> they arent landline over here..
[22:19:15] <anonimasu> although they cant support enough traffic anyways..
[22:19:16] <Jymmm> robin_sz and no emergency power to them either.
[22:19:24] <Jymmm> solar/generator
[22:19:26] <anonimasu> hm, they have a week of power here..
[22:19:38] <Jymmm> anonimasu assuming NORMAL traffic
[22:19:40] <anonimasu> I went into one of the cellhone masts with a tech to have a look a while back..
[22:19:42] <anonimasu> Jymmm: yeah
[22:19:52] <robin_sz> and the police/fire/ambulance etc have their own VHF comms anyway
[22:19:57] <Phydbleep> And are pre-empted for "Official Use Only" in the event of a disaster..
[22:20:14] <Phydbleep> Cell-phones that is.
[22:20:16] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[22:20:29] <anonimasu> well ever tried calling somone at new years eve..
[22:20:29] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is thankful for the hams.
[22:20:32] <anonimasu> :)
[22:20:48] <anonimasu> or somone at a large convention..
[22:21:07] <Jymmm> assuming the police/fire can even get to you to offer help or even know you are in need of help.
[22:21:21] <anonimasu> everyone calls their relatives to check if they are ok..
[22:21:31] <Phydbleep> Not me..
[22:21:37] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[22:21:50] <robin_sz> all I've ever seen them do is provide essential comms fromt he start/mid/end of marathons and other races
[22:22:04] <Phydbleep> I avoid my relatives like the plague.. In fact given the choice I'd rather have the plague. .:)
[22:22:10] <Jymmm> with DOS APRS you can easily handle traffic of 9000/msg per hour
[22:22:24] <robin_sz> APRS?
[22:22:32] <robin_sz> AX25 packet racket?
[22:22:33] <Jymmm> aprs.net
[22:22:46] <Jymmm> robin_sz basically
[22:22:52] <robin_sz> that works real well
[22:23:09] <robin_sz> right up until the point where more than 3 people are on the same channel
[22:23:36] <Jymmm> robin_sz you may know machining, but you know beans on comms
[22:23:45] <robin_sz> Jymmm: sure?
[22:24:06] <Jymmm> robin_sz This is one of my radios http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/4116.html
[22:24:40] <robin_sz> its a radio
[22:25:05] <robin_sz> most of mine a are older
[22:25:15] <Phydbleep> That's "An expensive radio." to you. :)
[22:25:18] <Jymmm> robin_sz http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/4116lrg.gif
[22:25:34] <Jymmm> robin_sz notice the serial port? (one of many)
[22:25:58] <robin_sz> and?
[22:26:03] <Jymmm> robin_sz and the one next to it for your GPS
[22:26:10] <Jymmm> robin_sz it's not JSUT a radio.
[22:26:35] <robin_sz> either way, when the channel is full, AX25 fails
[22:26:37] <Phydbleep> Nope..It's a billboard advertising your position to all and sundry. :)
[22:27:07] <robin_sz> thats what basically killed AX25 in the UK
[22:27:16] <robin_sz> people just piled on more watts ...
[22:27:24] <anonimasu> heh stupid users..
[22:27:36] <anonimasu> or maybe it's the protocol that's stupid..
[22:27:51] <robin_sz> you should bear in mind I ran one of the first 9600 baud links on 1296mhz in the uk
[22:28:57] <robin_sz> that was back in the days of the TAPR tiny2 AX25 controllers
[22:29:20] <robin_sz> that was fun to start with ... build it yourself froma z80 and bits :)
[22:29:32] <anonimasu> well night guys
[22:31:00] <robin_sz> I must dig out my radio gear again ... theres a 10ghz SSB rig I never really got any use out of.
[22:32:11] <robin_sz> ah well ... back to sorting out the new PC
[22:32:40] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is waiting for people to figure out that 2 Wi-Fi card with external directional antennas will make a nice LOS link.
[22:32:48] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:33:01] <robin_sz> I think thats been done
[22:33:06] <robin_sz> over silly distances too
[22:33:28] <Phydbleep> With yagi's.. It's kinda lossy.. I want to do it with dishes. :)
[22:33:43] <Jymmm> pringles cans
[22:34:00] <robin_sz> yeah, .. just use yagis and some of the MIMIC amplifiers to up the power
[22:34:13] <Phydbleep> 75cm dish beats a pringles can any day.
[22:34:32] <robin_sz> pringles cans make good feeds, but lousy antennae
[22:34:37] <robin_sz> 3db at best
[22:35:06] <Jymmm> or coffee can
[22:35:06] <Phydbleep> 75cm should be ~ 21db IIRC.
[22:35:08] <robin_sz> Phydbleep: you might as well just up the power, illegal of course but so are the dishes
[22:35:36] <Phydbleep> Nope, dish is just a directional feed over here. :)
[22:35:47] <robin_sz> nope
[22:35:54] <robin_sz> look at the licence
[22:36:01] <Jymmm> antennas of any kind are NOT illegal in the US per FCC Part 97
[22:36:12] <robin_sz> nutsacks to you
[22:36:24] <Jymmm> you might have local antenna ordanices
[22:36:41] <robin_sz> many devices are licensed on therre power output
[22:36:53] <Jymmm> PEP !+ Antenna
[22:36:54] <Phydbleep> robin_sz: It's ERP (effective radiated power) that is the limit here..
[22:36:57] <Jymmm> !=
[22:37:13] <robin_sz> Phydbleep: exactly
[22:37:41] <Phydbleep> I could run 50kW into the lossiest POS anntena and as long as the ERP < 100mW I'm legal. :)
[22:37:47] <robin_sz> Jymmm: wifi cards are limtied by internatioanal conventionetc to a certain erp
[22:37:58] <robin_sz> Phydbleep: correct
[22:38:11] <Jymmm> robin_sz no antenna is going to increase power
[22:38:28] <Phydbleep> ROFL @ Jymmm
[22:38:31] <robin_sz> Jymmm: you call yourself an amateur radio operator?
[22:38:40] <robin_sz> Jymmm: go find out what ERP means
[22:38:44] <robin_sz> then come bacl
[22:38:48] <robin_sz> back
[22:39:02] <robin_sz> look it up in "radio 101"
[22:39:11] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: Look at the "fractal antenna" and say that.
[22:40:15] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is digging for the link to that one.
[22:40:16] <robin_sz> Phydbleep: it also means you can run 1w to a dipole or 10mw to a 20db yagi and hit the same limit
[22:40:26] <robin_sz> so limits are dbd
[22:40:32] <robin_sz> some are eirp
[22:40:41] <robin_sz> effective isotropic radiated power
[22:43:00] <robin_sz> Jymmm: if you look at some bands you'll see the limits are different .. some it the total watss, some its the watts * antennae gain .. it depends. wifi cards are part of the watts * antennae gain thing, they get a dispensation from licensing so long as they are below a certain eirp
[22:43:14] <Phydbleep> http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/cfa/
[22:43:43] <robin_sz> ah yes
[22:43:45] <robin_sz> the CFA
[22:44:06] <robin_sz> synthesize your e and H fields ...
[22:44:12] <Phydbleep> Have a look at that puppy. 210ft tower replaced with a 21ft stubby. :)
[22:44:23] <robin_sz> yep
[22:44:32] <robin_sz> popular in the gulf states
[22:44:42] <robin_sz> (sand makes a real crap ground plane)
[22:44:58] <Phydbleep> Yeah, It takes out less mobile homes if it falls over. :)
[22:45:05] <robin_sz> heh
[22:45:25] <robin_sz> dunno how well they go at real powers though
[22:45:51] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep was born In Texas and lived in Louisianna and can make such comments with impunity. :)
[22:46:11] <robin_sz> biggest tx i ever worked on ... in raw watts terms ...
[22:46:13] <robin_sz> hmm
[22:46:22] <robin_sz> tricky ...
[22:46:29] <Phydbleep> ~20kw here.
[22:46:29] <robin_sz> 500kw probably
[22:46:36] <robin_sz> on 198khz
[22:46:48] <Phydbleep> Not counting spark-gap xmitters. :)
[22:46:53] <robin_sz> heh
[22:47:35] <robin_sz> that baby was driving a 700 foot T antennae
[22:48:08] <robin_sz> we had the thing surrounded by UV detectors
[22:48:22] <robin_sz> for when pigeons landed onthe insulators
[22:48:30] <Phydbleep> The old Lincoln welder with the outboard Hi-Freq unit made a good one and would take AM.. :)
[22:48:39] <robin_sz> heh
[22:49:16] <robin_sz> with 500kw, you have to drop carrier to extinguish a spark when a pigeon flashes over :)
[22:50:06] <robin_sz> wasnt the CFA doen by GM4HAT if I rememebr right?
[22:50:08] <Phydbleep> Yell "GOOD MORNING TEXAS!" into a carbon mic and hear the whole neighborhood scream when the football game went away. :)
[22:50:18] <robin_sz> Haytley antennae technology?
[22:51:27] <robin_sz> ahhm GM3HAT
[22:51:41] <robin_sz> http://www.antennex.com/preview/cfa/cfa.htm
[22:51:46] <Phydbleep> Hmm.. Gotta wonder what one of those would do for the range of my WAP.
[22:52:19] <robin_sz> cellphone yagi!
[22:52:32] <robin_sz> actually in the UK it would do bugger all
[22:52:44] <robin_sz> they are TDM in the UK
[22:53:05] <robin_sz> so the maximum delay between handset and base is limited
[22:53:17] <robin_sz> you can actually have a perfect signal and be "out of range"
[22:53:53] <robin_sz> you're CDM out there in the US?
[22:54:33] <Phydbleep> Shouldn't there be a "Your Service Provider is a cheap SOB and needs to add capacity" message the phone displays in those cases?
[22:54:42] <robin_sz> nah
[22:54:50] <robin_sz> its not a question of fullness
[22:55:10] <robin_sz> its a pre-programmed "no user more than X miles from a cell"
[22:55:22] <Phydbleep> D'Eaux!
[22:55:55] <robin_sz> CDM might not suffer from that
[22:56:52] <Phydbleep> ysstems here are a motley mix right now... cdm, gsm, tdms, and some voip stuff as well.
[22:57:35] <Phydbleep> There's dropping the cdm stuff though due to the new regs for next year.
[22:57:49] <robin_sz> cdma and tdma are the comms layer .. the physical layer
[22:58:12] <robin_sz> GSM, voip etc are protocols carried by them
[22:58:13] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders if the public will revolt the day their old tv's all stop working..
[22:58:29] <robin_sz> really? coo.
[22:59:21] <Phydbleep> Legislated shutoff of the standard 6mHz tv system in '06... digital/hdtv only from then on.
[22:59:38] <robin_sz> euww.
[22:59:51] <robin_sz> they sold the bandwidth to phone cos then?
[23:00:12] <Phydbleep> All new equipment has to comply with the "no-record" flag as well. :(
[23:00:40] <robin_sz> "welcome to the land of the free, please leave your rights outside"
[23:01:05] <Phydbleep> Which makes it really hard to catch the govt in a lie on tv because you're not legally allowed to have the recording. :(
[23:01:23] <robin_sz> Jymmm seems to have gone quiet?
[23:01:52] <Phydbleep> Probably looking at emigrating somewhere safe like Beirut.
[23:02:37] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep lives in New Mexico and expects the dumbasses to start a shooting war with Mexico next.
[23:02:41] <robin_sz> Jymmm: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Effective_radiated_power
[23:04:46] <robin_sz> it wouldnt have been so funny if he handt just told me I knew squat about comms ;)
[23:06:08] <robin_sz> I wold have been gentle on him, but after that , hey .. he was fair game ;)
[23:07:17] <robin_sz> ooh,
[23:07:20] <robin_sz> here you go
[23:07:34] <robin_sz> the full skinny on wifi and antennae gain and the FCC
[23:07:36] <robin_sz> http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1428941
[23:10:49] <Phydbleep> Yep.. I can push the whole 100mW from this 802.11g card into a 75cm/21db dish and still be well under the legal limit. :)
[23:11:19] <robin_sz> for fixed operation?
[23:11:31] <Phydbleep> Yeah, Point2point. :)
[23:11:49] <robin_sz> in -10dbw
[23:11:58] <robin_sz> gain +21db
[23:12:11] <robin_sz> eirp +11dbw eirp
[23:12:31] <robin_sz> limit is 6dbw
[23:12:36] <Phydbleep> 18db gain ofer the stock antenna.
[23:12:42] <Phydbleep> over
[23:13:11] <robin_sz> do you would be 5db over
[23:13:18] <robin_sz> thus illegal
[23:14:02] <Phydbleep> \For antennas having gain greater than 6 dBi, the FCC requires you to reduce the transmitter output power if the transmitter is already at the maximum of 1 watt.
[23:14:15] <robin_sz> corect.
[23:14:17] <robin_sz> but ...
[23:14:21] <robin_sz> which bit of :
[23:14:38] <robin_sz> the FCC allows operation up to 4 watts EIRP
[23:14:45] <robin_sz> did you have difficulty with?
[23:15:08] <Phydbleep> The reduction, however, is only 1 dB for every 3 dB of additional antenna gain beyond the 6 dBi mentioned above.
[23:15:22] <robin_sz> correct
[23:15:25] <Phydbleep> As a result, the FCC allows EIRP greater than 4 watts for antennas having gains higher than 6 dBi.
[23:16:02] <robin_sz> ok,
[23:16:05] <robin_sz> true.
[23:16:08] <robin_sz> so ...
[23:16:14] <robin_sz> with 21db
[23:16:24] <robin_sz> you are 15db over the 6dbi
[23:16:39] <robin_sz> so -5db down,
[23:16:45] <robin_sz> upi are at -10db
[23:16:48] <robin_sz> OK, your legal
[23:16:49] <robin_sz> :)
[23:16:57] <Phydbleep> I told you so. :)
[23:16:59] <robin_sz> I confess I was wrong :)
[23:17:30] <robin_sz> so you could run -5dbw into a 21dbi dish
[23:17:57] <robin_sz> +16dbi, or 40w eirp
[23:18:23] <robin_sz> fair enough#
[23:18:26] <Phydbleep> Should be stable for ~ 8.5 miles with weather figured in.
[23:18:38] <robin_sz> hmm
[23:18:51] <Phydbleep> @ 54Mbit.
[23:18:54] <robin_sz> depends on how high you go
[23:19:17] <Phydbleep> Direct line of sight.
[23:19:27] <robin_sz> yeah, but the fresnel zone
[23:19:46] <Phydbleep> 25ft up?
[23:19:46] <robin_sz> quite large at 2.4ghz
[23:19:57] <robin_sz> you know about the fresenl zone?
[23:20:17] <robin_sz> imagine you eline of sight.
[23:20:27] <Phydbleep> Air disturbance at ground level due to thermal effects?
[23:21:16] <robin_sz> imagine a wave that takes a path at say 2 degrees, bounces off someting, and ends up at the rx 180degrees out of phase, due to the path being 0.5 wavelengths longer
[23:21:20] <Phydbleep> One end will be up a hill (figured it as a bowl/valley).
[23:21:49] <robin_sz> you get a "lens shaped" zone .. from each end of the link
[23:21:58] <robin_sz> thickest in the middle right?
[23:22:20] <Phydbleep> Yeah, You're talking about ground clutter, :)
[23:22:24] <robin_sz> a reflective object on boundary of that zone creates a cancelling signal
[23:22:47] <robin_sz> for a reliabel link you need to keep the 1st and 2nd fresnel zones clear
[23:23:34] <robin_sz> this is why dishes go up masts, line of sight, plus the fat sausage shape ;)
[23:24:09] <robin_sz> ( I might have spent a year calculating link budgets and path planning with the BBC ;)
[23:24:16] <Phydbleep> Yeah, No reflective things in the path.. /me always figured it as a cylinder 12x the wavelength.
[23:25:12] <Phydbleep> radius not dia.
[23:25:25] <robin_sz> http://www.westcon.co.za/images/fresnel.gif
[23:27:02] <robin_sz> ooh
[23:27:06] <robin_sz> good page:
[23:27:07] <robin_sz> http://www.zytrax.com/tech/wireless/fresnel.htm
[23:27:24] <Phydbleep> Bout 8ft at 2.4gig/9miles?
[23:27:38] <robin_sz> dunno
[23:27:41] <robin_sz> brain fried
[23:28:09] <robin_sz> http://www.zytrax.com/tech/wireless/calc.htm#fresnel
[23:28:15] <robin_sz> online calculator :)
[23:28:56] <robin_sz> 21m
[23:29:04] <robin_sz> ist fresnel zone
[23:29:42] <robin_sz> +4.11m of earth curvature
[23:30:04] <robin_sz> so two 25m towers should do it :)
[23:30:21] <robin_sz> on flatland
[23:30:42] <Phydbleep> 35ft dia for 10miles , 20 foot towers up a mountain. :)
[23:31:09] <robin_sz> 35ft?
[23:31:16] <robin_sz> 21m radius
[23:31:48] <robin_sz> 140 foot dia!
[23:32:01] <Phydbleep> That's for flatland.. This is one on the flat, one on the mountain.
[23:32:10] <robin_sz> right
[23:32:31] <robin_sz> you need to take a map and a piece of paper and plot a path profile really
[23:32:47] <robin_sz> or just try it :)
[23:33:09] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep can look out the back door at the signal path. :)
[23:33:14] <robin_sz> ahh :)
[23:33:30] <robin_sz> right .. bedtime
[23:33:42] <robin_sz> Jymmm: you can come back now
[23:33:46] <robin_sz> later ;)
[23:33:51] <Phydbleep> G'night robin_sz :)