so it's usless for making any real parts on?
[00:01:19] <robin_sz> http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/cat_leaf.php?id=1791
Ive seen them before and heard similar tales ... basically its a "training lathe" .. for showing kids in schools how to turn stuff by CNC from perspex etc
hm, I'll call and ask about spindle power tomorrow..
G;nite anonimasu :)
anonimasu: that looks like ~ a 9x20 on a cnc base.
My bad..The Orac looks like a 9x20.. the CNC looks like a 7x? maybe a Sieg wayset
Direct drive into the handwheel rack? Ick.. :þ
:( pizza place closed. :(
A-L-P-H-A No pizza for you!
Jymmm, nope. none for me... I had chicken strips.
heh, I had pizza
not to shabby http://www.xylotex.com/StepperMotor.htm
Jymmm, can you goto www.fistfire.ca ? is there the word "TEST" anywhere in the source?
Jymmm, www.firstfire.ca ?
fistfire != firstfire
did it work?
is there the word "tesT"
test in there?
Jymmm, so how goes your quest on the CNC machine sup $500?
not too shabby
A-L-P-H-A: Are you another Lloyd?
* Phydbleep is a Lloyd as well.
who carries polished acme rod?
Someone who needs a high precision blunt instrument?
Maybe I'm clueless here, but something just doens't look right about this lathe --> http://www.taigtools.com/mlathe.html
That's a Taig, They're all wimpy looking. :\
Not just the whimpy factor, more like "pieced together"
For the size/$ I'd rather have an old Unimat.
Or even a Sieg 7x12..
* Phydbleep would break a Taig.
what about a sherline?
You won't get a Sherline for $<300. :)
Last time i looked they were >$500
Phydbleep but down the beer and keep up with the conversation.... would yo break a sherline?
Jymmm: Dunno.. Send me one and I'll see?
Phydbleep no problem, send me a cashiers check
Not Beer.. Ellen Degeneres on Comedy Central.
Phydbleep is that any good?
seemed the commercials were the highlites
Funny as hell so far.. Of course I'm a sick puppy and think torturing hardware/software is fun.. :)
I prefer the blue collar crew myself
They're funny too, but I've got a 3-1/2 yo and have to keep it somewhat mellow.
Crap.. Got to to the store and get dog-food before the mutts mutiny.
Phydbleep eh, toss em a few hotdogs, they'll be fine till tomorrow
The hotdogs went yesterday.
roast beef, SPAM, roast turkey
* Phydbleep has been busy hacking PS and avoiding the rain by putting off a trip to the store.
you keep mentioning PS, what are you doing?
8 bit PWM, 720 division tach wheel and a sync ring.
let me know whaen it's done so I can see pics and mock you for no reason at all =)
just kidding =)
These are 2" , when I'm done with that I get to scale it up to ~3.5" for the spindle encoder.
OK.. BBL, I'm off to the Mall-Wart.
nevyn_ is now known as nevyn
get a 9x12 lathe.
I would get one of those if I needed another lathe right now
Jymmm, acme rods. www.mcmaster.com www.roton.com
let me check out roton
oh wtf... I really hate it when websites dont list prices
A-L-P-H-A: I need a cnc lathe..
I have a large ass lathe at work..
so convert one
I found a reasonably cheap lathe.
I have a lathe now but it's not worth converting..
someone did my schuablin 102 lathe for me.
and I modified it more
I can turn 1m stock at work.. anyway so I am curious if that lathe I posted if good enough to use
1m long? diameter?
and when would I be able to afford 1m wide stock?
a emco cnc5
[06:57:33] <anonimasu> http://www.blocket.se/view/4803220.htm?caller=nbl_s&l=0&c=1&city=0
whats' 11.5k kroners worth in USD?
sounds a little pricey to me... unless it works.
* Phydbleep wanders back from capitalist hell..
Phydbleep, what time is it there?
A-L-P-H-A: it's a new lathe..
anonimasu, I'd rather have another lathe.
a 9x20, and convert it to CNC myself
9x20 = $1400CDN.
[07:02:23] <anonimasu> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=97230&item=7509389239&rd=1
I'd rather have that
steppers + controllers + ballscrews = 100USD + 240USD + 200USD
walmart is 24hrs wher eyou are?
They're stocking over there and the aisles are a mess...
* Phydbleep knows how the rat in the maze in the psych lab feels now.
Can I go down this aisle? Yes, But only if I want to do it without the cart.
Phydbleep? right hand turns online.
you'll eventually get out that way
It's not even that.. It's the holes that are just a hair too small too get the cart through. Fire marshal sees that and they're nicked.
get fire marshal in there now!
crap. hungry again.
5 hours since I ate.
damn pizza place being closed.
I got mcdonalds, denny's, maybe a burger king too
I have a domino's
Dreck, Dreck and more dreck.. Might as well eat the spare tire for the car.
all the pizza places are closed.
I was craving that earlier... but they closed
nevyn: I'm sorry.
domino's is decent pizza
Not in NM.. :\
dominos is like.. over the road.
or no jobs?
17:13 < A-L-P-H-A> nix jobs
that's one minute ago.
nixs.... like annex.
Damn it.. Now I want pizza.. Pudge Bros, White Monster with sausage and a lid....
It's like a calzone a foot and a half in dia. :)
I was gonna order two calzones... one with pepperoni, and the other with sausage.
and have it with a greek ceasar salad + grilled chicken.
Damn it A-L-P-H-A, Stop thinking so loud.. :)
but alas they were closed.
would have been really yummy with an ice tea.
but instead, I had chicken strips with plum sauage, and an tall glass of ice tea.
* Phydbleep settles for an apple turnover and a Coke..
apple turnover + milk would go good
toaste the damn turnover too
cold is no good
toaster ovens rock
Milk, and Coffee are right out for me and as for water, Remember.. Fish fsck in that stuff.. :)
out of milk?
don't you have kids?
how could you be out of milk?
kids need milk! it's like a staple!
'out' as in 'no-go' as in allergies.
Phydbleep... uh? lastase?
Lactase is the enzyme to break down lactose.
umm no milk is wrong
beer is the answer.
nevyn, beer and a pastry? eew.
beer and meat = yes
what do you think pizza is?
No beer.. I hate alcohol.
wine and meat = yes
pasta + wine = yes
pasta + beer = NO.
Phydbleep, morman? :P
beer and pizza = yes
* Phydbleep thought pizza was all 4 food groups in an easy to transport package.
Phydbleep, not unless you get is with veggies
A-L-P-H-A: Nope.. Just grew up in East Texas and got to see first hand just how stupid humans can be.
I know humans are stupid.
I don't doubt how stupid they can get.
A-L-P-H-A: Take two slices of pizza and slap a napkin between them for your dietary fiber. :)
the problem with people is stupidity.. now I'm not saying we should start killing people but.. can't we just take the warning labels off everything and let the situation resolve itself..
nevyn. :) heh
I like darwinism
bash.org to the rescue
That's why I never became a doctor.. They're not allowed to cure terminal stupidity.
right.. you have a pen up your nose...
the worse bit is you can't use stupidity in triage.
it's a crayon
The cure for 'a pen up the nose' is "a fall from a 10 story building"... Oh Nurse!
Wow, That was quick.. Now that I know WTF (Sorta) I'm doing with PS. :)
Postscript Level II, Hacking by hand. :)
postscript is kinda cool.. but it's wrong.
vectors are small..
moveto curveto etc.
Why not? Why else? Because i can? Because I like puzzles? Becasue I like torturing code interpreters?
nevyn: Can you dcc?
don't think so.
Nope, It's off on your end or the port is firewalled.
Hmm.. Where can I put this..
I got it.. just need to sftp it over there.
* nevyn waits for massive dist-upgrade
[07:43:00] <Phydbleep> http://www.nccabq.com/Network%20Trash%20Folder/encoder.pdf
That's a pdf and has lost some of the res.
umm gimme ps.
I can convert :)
can you print it @ > 2500 dpi?
more seriously.. if you want something better than ps try cairo
cairo does stuff like turning the pen which ps doesn't do.
the ps spec says that the pen doesn't rotate.
www.cairographics.org I think..
[07:53:15] <Phydbleep> http://www.nccabq.com/Network%20Trash%20Folder/encoder-2.5inch.ps
nevyn: Get it?
* Phydbleep abused PS for 4 days to get that. :)
[07:56:38] <nevyn> http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/tutorials/cairo/cairo-tutorial/img57.jpg
left is PS right is cairo.. see how ps is UGLY and cairo isn't.
Phydbleep: my display really hates it.
Not bad, I've got a friend who can run it into MatLab if I need to.
nevyn: Yeah, Same problem here @ 100% Zoom, But it prints ok @400%.
but it's too big.
[07:59:45] <nevyn> http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/tutorials/cairo/cairo-tutorial/index.html
has the directions
nevyn: This is optimized to print @ > 2500 dpi.
Or print @ 400% 1200 dpi and photo-reduce it to 2" on film. :)
so you're a unix person or a windows person normally?
Then you can cut the encoder out of the negative. :)
sure and that's cool.
* nevyn thinks about cairo output from tex.
that'd be kinda neat.
* Phydbleep has almost got xp nixed.
* nevyn does tex so..
Ripped out .. Explorer, Messenger, Outlook, IE, Media Player and a bunch of other dreck.
XP-Lite + Lite-step is a great combo.
I could see that.
but if your hardware is supported why not just use a un*x
VLC for media files, firefox or opera for web, Real-alt, AltneraTiff. :)
All my other hardware is nix.. I need the WinXP crap for compatibility with some legacy apps.
* Phydbleep thinks.. Yep.. Everything else (4 boxes) is FC3 except for 1 emc BDI.
And there's 2 more to bring up in the next few days.
So 1 aborted XP, 5 FC3's and a BDI.
Oh, i forgot the cygwin on this box for the X layer.
* nevyn waits for sid updates.
Will emc2/HAL deal with usb encoders?
where can I get the ebook of RCS Handbook?
Good morning #emc
rayh is now known as rayh-fest
testing from NIST!
* narnia waves to emc festers.
festers are still getting orgainzed
jmkasunich, you do realize that being organized is a sign of a sick mind. ;-)
need to shut down for a mo
* SWPadnos waves back
fest discusses arch, nml, tool changers.
rayh-fest, if i may ask; who eventually made it there?
knock, knock, anyone home at emc-fest?
most people turned up..
* anonimasu yawns
how's the fest going?
rayh-fest, hello, how goes it?
We are deep in discussion of interp and world model.
also Right now it is brain storming along with what the system does now
rather than making any kinds of conclusions about how it ought to work just yet.
i will check back later. i am deep in the morass of iso 10303, commonly known as 'STEP'.
I am having a good day..
One of the examples we are talking around is STEP.
the prototype stuff I got works
yeah it's fantastic..
I bought all that's been made of the PLC modules I use..
anonimasu, prototype of 'STEP'?
a module for a PLC to do pwm...
there's 9 of it, I have all 9 on my desk ;)
rayh-fest, what is the discussion concerning STEP?
There is a prototype step interpreter.
That was written a while back.
We are contrasting interpreters and how they hve to approach the same set of canonical commands.
lunch for fest --- back +60
will check back later
hello gentlemen, I see you guys are finally here, Ray and paul_c that is
please help me with my limits and home switches.
Looks like 15 is limit plus
limit minus is 13
what about the ini
pin 12 is home.
These are coded in mini and bridgeport
The added functions from an overlap with bridgeport are spindle, cool and estop.
do I just jump the 12, 13 and 15 pins to each other
I believe that you can do that.
You may find some problems with home unless we get a new file from paul.
doesn't it home from the limit?
That is what the home switch is for..
ok, how do I make that work properly to home when I hit the prox
Naughty boy.... Should never log in as root !
tonyp: Youŕe using BDI-Live ?
yes, rc46 right now
and you want to home off the negative limit switch ?
I am only using one prox per axis
OK... One of two choices here...
Either use BDI-4.20 which has the Sm hack
ok, better now
or edit emcmot.c... and recompile.
I love mutt.
4.20 sounds like a better option for me
then I use bridgeport and bridgeportio?
in the ini that is
You can use bridgeport or minimill
do I hook to all three pins 12, 13 and 15 or 12, 13 or 15
or do I jump all three together
Are you trying to use a single sensor for home, neg. limit, and pos. limit ??
yes, one per axis with the trip mounted on the moving part of the axis
crossing the prox at the outer limit of travel in either direction
won´t work without doing quite a few hacks to emcmot.c
smithy's mill seemed to work the same way as what I have set up
they are using an encoder though if that makes a difference
Thought Sm used separate switches for pos. & neg. limit switches.
only one switch per axis
I need to have a talk with Ray about how the switch logic is handled then.
maybe I could just use the sm ini?
still working on the switches
so how are things at nist
bleh I wish I could be there
rayh sent you, fred and matt an email about G43
tonyp: There were a couple of changes to the low level code to allow the home/limit switches to be mixed.
how do I implement them and where do I get them.
any good at C coding ?
not yet, dont know anything about it, want to learn though.
just dont have enough time right now
pc...any reason Z should go non-modal whenG43 is in effect?
yeh! no joke
do G43 Hn
G43 is a tool offset ?
now do a move in x, x and y , or y..... and Z moves neg...at a rate maybe 4x the x rate
g43 is tool length
Les is running a year old cvs and it does not do it...
didn´t think G43 had been implemented...
I'm on 2.18 and a 25-mar-05 cvs and it does
les uses g43/g49 all the time
<jon_Elson> my 1999 EMC does G43 just perfectly!
take a look at his turkey call code
OK.. I need to take a look at the interp & run some tests
I'd appreciate it. <big smile>
but that will have to wait till later..
I can live without it but it does make things more difficult
btw Jon Snnnn M3/M4/M5 works just fine with the 25-mar-05 cvs, which is the main reason I updated.
got to go code some stuff, see you later.
*threw 1156 spams at spamassassin*
ray...you still there
Hi Dave. I'm back
Steve Stallings want's to know why wiki.linuxcnc.org will not allow
will it not?
No it can't find the link when you press the edit page
You can not set preferences from that url either.
did he follow the BasicSteps?
ah, wait 1
"The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request." -- cliking on "preferences"
* anonimasu yawns
maybe I should try plugging the screen back in..
and, start drawing on some parts :)
chgrp apache * -R; chmod +w * -R
Yes it is fixed. Fantastic job, Robin.
shrug, hardly. Fantastic would have involved getting it right first time ;)
how many people are festering with you?
That would mean that I've been excluded from the fantastic club alltogether.
if anyone cares .. I got the analogue inputs wroking on my G200X last night ... just going to write an FIR filter and a PID loop to drive the Z axis on the plasma
rayh-fest: it was nice to see all the mods for subroutines, conditionals etc go into the interp,
rayh-fest: can I suggest someone slaps a GPL on them?
isn't that "implied" ?
either~: the file carries the "gpl header" or it doesn't ... and this doesn't. its PD at the moment ..
Well, copyright is implied upon creation of any works. Licensing is another matter.
The lack of GPL does NOT imply PD
I've been away for a couple weeks and am not really up on the new interp stuff.
its the subroutines and conditionals mods
Wah. That is a lot of change.
rayh-fest who's at fest?
A-L-P-H-A: thats bad grammar
A-L-P-H-A: better to say "who is festering?"
who is participating at the codefest? [HAPPY!]
Jymmm, this calzone is amazing. :D finally getting my fix.
A-L-P-H-A The first "hot pocket"
this was never frozen.
there's is sooo much pepperoni in this.
A-L-P-H-A LOL... keep up with the conversation... Calzone was the very first "Hot Pockets", in other words, where the concept of "hot pockets" originated from.
It took me a while to remember what hot pocket was.
* robin_sz oges off to find a PID loop
Are you just trying to be dyslexic. :)
Nope, nfc what a PID loop is
umm, you've heard of a servo motor?
and you've heard of an encoder ?
rayh...how is classic-latter/emc coming
the PID loop takes in the encoder position and the desired position and generates a drive signal
robin_sz ah, ok.
the same loop os used for isntance in temperature controllers ...
" I should be at 100 degrees, I'm 1t 98 degrees, ask for xxx watts of heat input"
proportional, integral, differential
differential I'm aware of
* Jymmm wishes he could sing (w/o the only audiance being canine)
Theres a old chap who lives at the top of my road who can sing a bit ...
they call him "Robert Plant" ;)
* Jymmm smacks robin_sz!
yeah, not bad for an old bloke ;)
not bad?! slight understatement dont ya think?
he plays the odd local gig under funny names from time to time
anyone know of a good nesting program? like I have predefined shapes, and I want to fix them into another given shape? [so I can minimize material waste?]
good or cheap?
free, or obtainable freely <G>
good, MTC turbonest, about �1200 GBP
Sheetcam, not bad, about �80
isnt' sheetcam free?
well, up to 150 lines on demo version
150lines of gcode?
anything I should ask about these before buying? http://www.xylotex.com/StepperMotor.htm
Jymmm, who is the original manufacturer of the steppers.
do they help you/support you in building a powersupply for your drivers.
do they have schematics for you to build your own power supply
how their performance compares to gecko g201 drivers
A-L-P-H-A it's a stepper motor
I thought youw ere going to get the combo package.
3 Motors & XS3525/8S-3 (3 Axis Drive) - $295
his driver can't maximize these steppers
maximize? speed or torque=?
anonimasu: can't reach the current rating, I think
driver == 2.5A motor 2.8A
geckos then. :D
and the driver is low voltage
how's it going?
hmm.. gotta get me a boat
buy a xylotex motor and drive and Gecko and a Sanyo-denki H series .. then compare them.
seems there are a lot of floods around here
robin_sz thats why I asked you the other day about that other driver, then you pointed out no microstepping.
Jymmm, if you're running those steppers, you should be going at 60-65Volts.
alex_joni: that's horriud
A-L-P-H-A: yeah, seem right
step down transformer... with a nice big cap, and some fuses, to geckos, and whammo. you're good.
I think I'll lose my house :/
will insurance cover it?
well.. not that bad
I lost my wallet once ...
it's not the one I'm living in
and my wife lost her car keys ...
but it's my own ;)
but house? ...
heh.. not completely lose it...
alex_joni: summer house?
but loose it
no, I mean loose
from the water
it's pretty old
just tow it :)
does have those old earth bricks
alex_joni : collect all the soda bottles you can and connect them to the footer, then flex lines for water/sewer/gas =)
which.. melt in water :D
I mean its old right?
so .. how come its not been flooded and lost before?
has someting changed
alex_joni This will save your house ----> http://www.livejournal.com/users/crasch/245311.html
140 l/ m^2 rainfall
is what changed
100000 ha of fields have been flooded
anyone object to abandoning linux versions that do not build using kbuild?
would that be 2.2?
that means 2.4
I'd have nothing against 2.2 and older.. but 2.4 ?
do you mean breaking it in emc1? of course I would object to that
cradek: I think it's only about emc1
darn.. emc1 is settled as not to receive further improvements
I'm probably out of the development of emc2 then.
I have no intention of installing BDI on my machine.
well... emc2 should work easier on more platforms
that was one of the goals
it already does. I don't know why we would break it.
are you sure kbuild works only for 2.6?
Imperator_ is now known as Imperator_fest
rayh-fest: whats kbuild?
rayh-fest: something KDE rleated?
Imperator_fest: yeah yeah.. you can't but brag about you beeing there
I have a kernel 2.4 tree right here. What file can I look at to find out if it's kbuild or not?
robin_sz: it's the new kernel build system in 2.6
This is in essence a 2.2 v 2.6 kernel rather than bdi issue.
hm, emc2 built loads easier then emc1
alex_joni: ah right, I never did get that to work
jepler: 2.4 shouldn't have it by default
I wonder if it can be added though...
Alex im here in Washington !
2.4.27+ is kbuildable.
what benefit do you expect to see, in return for making emc harder to build on kernel 2.4?
as long as 2.4 (even if it's a newer 2.4) is kbuildable I wouldn't object
it makes it possible to build on 2.6
and it REALLY cleans out makefiles
Kbuild is the way that late 2.4 and newer kernel modules are built.
That system is essential for 2.6 stuff.
* Phydbleep wanders back from the land of parenthood..
Will emc2/hal deal with usb encoders?
hmm.. definately not realtime
what kind of encoders are those?
why the hell would you want USB IO ?
that'd be slow..
Just thought.. The new usb spec is almost fast enough for rt.
Just a thought..
it's the polling that takes time..
Universal Serial Bus ?
Jymmm: Yeah, USB2.0
if you would poll somthing like a g200x or similiar it'd be faster since it dosent need to poll it all that much
wth is the problem with usb polling... is it the chip or the specs?
it's the speed!!!
you get to poll once every few milliseconds
it's the fact that USB is not realtime
4Mbit is too slow?
that's how the protocol is done
4Mbit = crap
throughput and latency aren't the same thing
alex_joni Huh? ok 256 devices, that can transfer what 4MB/s and can't even poll properly?!
because it's not 4 Million packets / second
it's 1000 packets / second
each pretty large
but it's only 256 though
you have a lot of throughput on USB, 2.0 even more
what, we live in the age of XT cpu's at 4.77 MHz
thats like building a corvette with chevette brakes
Jymmm: do you know how fast realtime is?
* Phydbleep clubs Jymmm into unconciousness with an IBM PC-Jr
that's a quote to remember
do you know how fast realtime is?
it's REALY fast
Not fast enough?
anonimasu No, no, that's always been my bitch about USB... the fucking POS polling
never had that issue with scsi
well.. scsi is better than usb
That was my other thought.. Hang it on a 1572 for an i/o controller.
right, so they didn't borrow/learn anythign from scsi
at least from the latency point of view
throughput is better on usb2.0
Jymmm: that's what patents are for
the transfer speed might be great..
it's like building a 256 lane highway with no speed limit, but only one car at a time on it.
but if there's a 200ms latency it still too slow..
same with good connections..
you can have great connection speed but high latency..
hell, might as well go bluetooth!
if you increase the packet rate, you might get a lot of collisions from the 256 devices
thus... crappy throughput
i dont think token ring had that many collisions
This will be 5 devices max per channel for what I'm thinking.
well.. it did
that's why it was called <smthg I don't remember>/CD
alex_joni you know what I mean =)
token ring you say?
that was the one with ..pass the bucket around ;)
whoever fills it first... gets his packet through
alex_joni: Yeah, I've got the token, Everybody else shut up system.
alex_joni All I'm saying is there has been some wonderful things out that they they could have drawn from to better support polling.
token, scsi, etc
Jymmm: Yeah, But with 95% of them you lose the daisy-chain pass-through.
* Phydbleep has seen a scary scsi system.. 2 machines/scsi cards, 1 drive in the middle of the cable between them.
nothing scarry about that
Jymmm: There is if both boards power up at the same time.
different scsi ID's
I'm assuming not a BOOT drive
0 & 7.. The drive was 3 or 4
I've seen it done with ide too.
I never had a IDE cable long enough to try that.
* Phydbleep builds machines in pizza boxes to test theories.
new or used?
Or the flats that beer comes in.
hm, there's plenty of ways to solve the trouble with data rates..
1) dont use USB
2) See #1
Jymmm: Either, Just make sure you get all the pizza first.
* anonimasu sighs
anonimasu come on... they didn't get it right on 1.1, and they still screwed it up on 2.0. Guess just wait till 4.0 comes out
like sending a interupt when the buffer is full..
still better than firewire...
isn't that why usb came out... to get away from IRQ's?!
hm, firewire's loads faster :)
There's just no pleasing some people. :)
I only have one FW device... my camrea
I have a FW/USB2 drive..
I think firewire will do full duplex..
It should, I can control my camera from the computer
you can either get or send data..
800MByte/sec it better =)
Damn, We bored Chanserv to death.
Hmm... I wonder If I shouldn't jus say "Fsck-It" and go fiber-optic for the module interconnects..
pci-e > fibreoptics
btw, I read about chips that will go wireless
on board (like northbridge talkting to southbridge)
I love the security implications
grab somones random data from far away with a good antenna..
or the electrosmog
Yeah, But I have motor brush noise to deal with in this app, so no wireless.
don't use any cellulars near the PC
it might ... blow up?
hmmm.. seems the link to fest went down
OK... PWM encoded wheel for power-up position checking, 720 div wheel for tach/fast positioning and a 90/180 sync wheel pair.. Did I miss anything?
That's all on a 2.45" disk.
Phydbleep a spiral when you look at it get dizzy
and want to up chuck
The sync markers will take care of that. :)
ok, then a secret msg that only appears when spinning
and a different msg when above 5000 rpm
anonimasu: WB. :)
I think I'm going to bed
I'll be going to bed in a bit too :)
it's 3:30 in the afternoon.. Slackers! :)
[00:24] <Phydbleep> it's 3:30 in the afternoon.. Slackers! :)
Of course then you get to party all night. :)
[00:26] <anonimasu> 23:26
GMT=3/4 for you 2?
gmt+1 @ an0n
pretty cold :D
GMT not C
* Phydbleep checks the seismic server... Yep -6
Ow.. Guatamala is going to pop off with a >5.0 quake in the next few days.
[21:35:29] <Phydbleep> http://www.pikespeakcam.com
Beautiful view.. Of a snowed over lens. :)
this is it for me... night guys
where oh where did my X server go?
imagine you want a pid loop
on a non-realtime system
would scaling the I and D terms based on the time since you last ran the lopp keep things sane?
what *would* keep things sane
I dont think you could do a PID loop in non realtime
not get it to work good..
well, 95% of the time mine will run in , say t
occasioanlly it might be 2t
and VERY occasionally 3t
I dont think you would have to worry about that..
if it's just for a few cycles it'll correct itself..
the trouble I see is with the response of the motor..
but the diff term would now be over 3 cycles say
hm, might be ok..
well, no .. lets take the integral term
the if I mul;tiplu the I coefficient by 3
thats will be the same ahs having gone 3 times roufn the loop
ah, stuff it :)
hm, wouldnt you need realtime values(updated) for each run?
should be fine :)
yeah, well, hmmm
so you can correct your gain, accordingly
maybe I can get it into the realtime ISR
until you end up close enough to the set target..
you could try it out..
well, thats weeks away
that will need hardware
and lots of dirt
this is the torch height control for my plasma ... measure the voltage, drive stepper motor velocity :)
you wont need that insane speed for that..
how fast is one cycle..
well 1/1024 s
and how long time does all your calculations take to complete..
oh, much less than that
but there might be Other Things happening that prevent a run sometimes
I think that's too slow for a PID loop
let me put it another way, how fast does it need to be?
a pid loop?
the faster the loop is the better the response of what you control
correct. to a point.
two pid loops.
pid loop A is controlling the position of a piezo activated microscopic positioner
pid loop B is controlling the level of water in a sotrage resevoir
do they both need to run at the same speed?
generally the loop shood run faster than the -3db point of the system response in freq. terms.
twice as quick is great
* anonimasu nods
10 times as quick is a waste of processing power
my stepper drive thing is heavily damped with a FIR filter on the velocity
I was thinking a servo pid loop like the one the geckos uses..
at bvest the -3db point is 2hz
well, same thing surely?
a pid loop is just a system ...
mechanical, electronic, fluids ...
I am messing things up in my head :/
poles and zeros .. control theory and all that
most electronic systems run much faster than needed really.
if this thing can respond quick enough to follow a gently warped sheet, then its fine.
well it's a matter of how fast you want it(responsive)
but well, we are talking very little time..
ah well, we'll see ... its written now,
how fast will you move in one cycle?
err how far..
you'll be just fine..
even if it lags..
and very low accels
the basic idea is to keep the torch at the same height on a warped plate
yeah I know what you mean :)
not to try and cut corrugated sheet :)
or even ~~~~~~~~~
but it would make a kewl demo :)
cutting ~~~~~~~~~ at 200ipm
whats that in real money?
buying a maching that'll do it?
7m/min is about righ ton 1.6mm
well way faster then that..
I have no idea how fast real machines are..
a plasma for thin sheet usually cuts at up to 10m
my laser in 1mm doe 9m/min
you can ask about the G0 speed if you like
how fast is that?
* anonimasu sighs
if you go to the Bystonic site
and look at their "bysprint" laser
it does over 200m/minute on G0 and 4G accels
today was the first day with my new manager guy
I was just trying to learn a little about cascading style sheets.
how did he do?
lots of experience
so you will eventually leave him with it and head south?
august/sept at the earliest
that's a while
robin_sz: I cant see 200m/min in my head even if I try..
ahh, I lied.
[22:16:16] <robin_sz> http://www.bystronic.com/c_b/en/products/laser/bysprint/Bysprint_Tech_Data_en.pdf
I am just hoping we get SQ all fixed up next week
* anonimasu is too
I got the 200X spinning nicely
got the A->d ad D->A channels working too
robin_sz: Cool. :)
and even wrote a PID loop for the Z height
you might have seen Till's posts on the list about it
I /me havent
on the emc list
I dont have any list mails..
perhaps I should subscribe
Iget the dev list, but not the users
it wont let me have them
I'll look in the archive
when I try to sub, its says im subbed already
when I try to access my controlpage, it says im not subbed
Ah.. Computers.. :)
The fastest idiots ever. :)
les: message title?
hm, I need to sleep
G'night anonimasu :)
made a mistake...that was on ther dev list
well, I dont see any posts by anyone called "tills" or anyting on the emc users list that mentions G200X
there is one thread on the user list from someone else asking why the movement is so jerky even with g64 on
yeah found em
I have gound 1 limitation of Mariss algorithms
short G0 moves
we talked a long time about what he did
if your max V is large and your accels low, the motion queue is long
short G0 moves always take at least 1 queue length
scaling the queue dynamically would work though
well we will be messing with queue length prob
it seems to run out
I hope seg works out OK
then it pauses an instant, refills, and continues
the problem I tink is related to very short segments
ones shorter in length than one cycle of loop
SQ is supposed to be good for just that sort of thing
yeah, joining em up
because it links them
mariss thing is not
so yeah the queue could be pretty big
as long as there is room
well, any points segemtns shorter than 1 servo loop time could be ignored relaly?
as in lust shortcut them
They could be but I think are not
all you need is the start and endpoints of a motion segemnt on the output
the path inbetween is irrelelvant surely?
say a motion segemnt starts on sub-segment 1 and end on 10
well the in between stuff does matter in general
you just need the point on line 1 and the point on line 10 .. line 2..9 are not going to happen
described in time with a cubic
* Phydbleep sees it as at least a 4-dimensional matrix.
now the original g coded segments are just lines sure (for g1)
sure .. you could draw a curve
but the srvo can only try and match up the end points ...
and given that the servo loop runs probably 2 orders of magnitude over basic system freq. response ...
I suspect any notions of curviness are irrelevent
every servo cycle the pid asks what time it is...and then calculates a position from the cubic equation
and vel and accel as well
les: then it should check that against the predicted position and adjust accordingly.
well, we'll see how it pans out
I suspect its being more "correct" than is needed
That's why I see it as a 4-dimensional matrix.
what confuses many is the exact purpose of the cubic subinterpolator that was always in there
at the end of the day, 700l gantries dont respond very quick
well mine can
I'll calc some move times it could do (with the right program)
given a motion queue running at 1khz
and a servo loop at 10khz
I suspect trying to dray curves withi that 1khz point space is wasteful of electrons
I managed to find a nice, simple pid loop I could uunderstand :)
[22:45:29] <robin_sz> http://www.embedded.com/2000/0010/0010feat3.htm
pid for comleat idiots
even I understood that one :)
In 0.1 second the gantry is capable of going 10 inches from a dead stop
after that .1 sec it would be giong 20 in/sec
the machine can easily do .5g
that I beleive
several g in y and z
the gantry pulls 1g one way, the machine pulls 0,5g the other
with luck, it ends up back in the same room at the end of a run
what were metric hole sizes again? Major - (1/2 x pitch?) = drill hole size?
well it is sure bolted down
so a 12Mx1.25 = 11.25 hole?
hole sizes? for tapping?
major * 0.9
* robin_sz used to know that one
no! it's Major - pitch.
yeah sounds better
exable. M10x1.25 = 8.5mm drill.
I can't type.
you should already know tha
the smelling pistakes are mine
The rule of thumb for digital control systems is that the sample time should be between 1/10th and 1/100th of the desired system settling time.
I use 10
now... if I have a 1/2"-20tpi nut... what's the shaft diameter to clear that? something like 11.5mm?
So I should be fine with 20MHz. :)
a 20mhz pid loop would be too fast for a machine of normal proportions
You, me or the clock?
your I and D terms will require a silly amount of precision
emc can run at about 10 k srvo cycles/sec
on a fast machine
20 MHz clock / 100 for controll loops.
I run at 2k on old 200 MHz easily
you can do a pid in 100 proc. cycles
2000 servo updates per second
200K.. I'm pulling my pwm clock there.
my amps run at about 20k
200k will have some losses...
I'll divide that by 10 for the rest of the loops probably.
yeah, or more
you dont want to run the PID loops too fast
Well, The rest of the loops will have their own division going on too.
if you runn the loop too fast, you can run out of bits in yur integrator
for example ...
If I get emc to work properly so I can go fast I will put a dynamic absorber on the gantry
if you run a loop 10 times quicker, you need a I term 1/10th of the magintiude to preserve the same response
so you need another order of magnitude in your I store
robin_sz: Define "I".. I work electronics and "I" is current to me.
les: sound right?
sounds right but would have to check the math
PHY: I is:
"I" = interval?
I was close. :)
a term that applies increasing force with error times time
proportional, integagralagal, derivative
hey, I took another Porsche today ... he braked for the corner, I eat him :)
so if a mechanism never quite reches the exact indended location due to stick slip or something
I will begin ramping up the force until it moves
normally I can be left very low
a little I goes a long way
I used to love it back in the mid '80 when Porsches where neutered and my '73 Audi 100LS would smoke them.. :)
I had an audi
this was a Carera 4 .. whatever that is ..
driven be people who cant drive
Oh!.. A status symbol! :)
well carreras oversteer like crazy too
* Phydbleep likes oversteer..
he was quite quick, 3 figures on the straights
but chicken in the twisties :)
* Phydbleep is rude to tyres though.
thats the nice thing about having an old turbo-diesel, I can keep it flat out through most bends .. the prosche driver is worrying about his 400bhp suprise under his right foot
"I" is why I want the absolute positioning ring.. I want to be able to read the encoder position without moving the motor/shaft.
and how will that help?
I also want to see if it misses a move do to a fault or obstruction.
you tink there might be some play between motor position and actual motion?
Wrong decimal place. :)
absolute positioning ring != linear encoder
This is for a leadscrew/ballscrew.
index => absolute
with my current I value it takes about 2 or 3 encoder ticks to move
OK, bedtime for me
see you later
dinner time for me
I have been kinda looking at audi a6s lately
The bmw looks and runs great, but it is getting old
92....I bought it new in 93
Too new for me..
I need to give it some PM if I keep it much longer
you know, hoses, belts, fuel pump, water pump
they all work ok
* Phydbleep hates anything that look like a plumber and an electrician had a bad acid trip during the planning phases.
but could fail sometime on a trip or something
the audi is more comfortable on a trip I think
I miss my old Honda AN-600 sedan.. 2 cylinder, 600cc motor with a 4 speed in a car small enough to fit in the back of a full size van.
That little s.o.b. would hit 120mph after a tune up. :)
I "re-worked" the top end and the oil system. :)
I just need to drive more on trips
hate the airport hassle
Can fly myself on some
but little airplanes are not good to make meetings on time etc
You just need to break down and get a teleporter. :)
Often get weather delays or get stuck when trying to travel in a light plane
While you're at it, Pick me up a replicater.
yeah need one of those
naw wait I would get too spoiled
Did you see the new "wish-boxes"?
CNC fab in a refrigerator size box
kinda like we are contemplating selling?
metal/plastic/electronic prototyping/consumer delivery devices.
les: Could yours build a cd/dvd player from parts?
You'd still have to assemble the major sub-assy's but it would come out as modules.
Populated pc board pops out, cd tray mech pops out and then the case.. :)
Cool system :)
why isn't anyone on here from the code fest?
I think they lost the link.
They are prob in the midst of a great argument heh
let me check the wiki
* Phydbleep tries to remember where that link was..
I think it was linked from on of the IT pubs like theregister.co.uk ot theinquirer.net
Rep-Rap systems.. That was the term..
Replicating Rapid Prototyper.
[23:36:31] <Phydbleep> http://www.reprap.org
oh yeah I remember that
Aha.. I knew I saw it o TheReg. :)
It was linked from "Rise of the man eating cyberloo". :)
I am reading some john von neumann stuff....
nevyn_ is now known as nevyn