#emc | Logs for 2005-04-10

[15:48:10] <rayh> Race condition is a good example of correct code doing unexpected things.
[15:48:19] <alex_joni> what I really am pissed at... is that my logger missed a lot of good conversation
[15:48:28] <jmkasunich2> if it's vulnerable to races, it isn't correct
[15:48:36] <alex_joni> rayh: there are a lot of such design flaws
[15:48:45] <alex_joni> jmk: yes and no
[15:48:53] <alex_joni> the code is correct, the system isn't
[15:49:10] <alex_joni> other put: the code is too narrow minded ;)
[15:49:24] <jmkasunich2> hence not correct for the application in which it is being used
[15:49:28] <alex_joni> right
[15:49:29] <jmkasunich2> * jmkasunich2 is nitpicking
[15:49:34] <rayh> Both are right.
[15:49:35] <les> so queue would not deplete due to servo rate being half or even a tenth of 1kHz then?
[15:49:54] <rayh> At one level the code all works at a bigger system level it fails.
[15:49:59] <les> because thr rt code will cycle at that higher rate?
[15:50:38] <jmkasunich2> les: if you are running at a feedrate of 5 inches per second, and have a servo rate of 1mS, then the average move must be more than 0.005" or you will eventually underflow the queue
[15:50:48] <jmkasunich2> change the feed or servo rate, and that limit changes
[15:51:09] <les> ok understand
[15:51:26] <les> we are then depleting the queue for sure
[15:51:39] <les> as indicated with motionid=0 messages
[15:52:01] <les> keyword you said is average....
[15:52:11] <les> that means larger queue I think
[15:52:26] <les> good.
[15:52:49] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes away for a while
[15:52:49] <robin_z> ok, someone try wiki.linuxcnc.org will ya?
[15:52:55] <rayh> Or queue on one proc and ... on another.
[15:53:06] <les> yes
[15:53:12] <alex_joni> robin: works now
[15:53:19] <alex_joni> later guys
[15:53:43] <robin_z> cheers
[15:53:59] <rayh> yep
[15:54:22] <Imperator_> hmm
[15:54:43] <rayh> Imperator_: What you thinking?
[15:54:56] <Imperator_> maybe i have to scrape toghether my money an fly to FEst
[15:55:16] <Imperator_> otherwhise nothing will change :-)
[15:55:22] <jmkasunich2> ;-)
[15:55:33] <rayh> I'd like to see you there.
[15:55:36] <Imperator_> 500 EUR
[15:55:42] <jmkasunich2> I wish both you and alex could make it
[15:55:48] <Imperator_> jep
[15:56:06] <Imperator_> the problem is Im not a real programmer
[15:56:14] <Imperator_> I can do some C code
[15:56:26] <jmkasunich2> neither am I... so what?
[15:56:31] <rayh> Quite a few of us can echo that statement.
[15:57:04] <Imperator_> that meany i cant change the code I don't like
[15:57:08] <rayh> I'm of the opinion that this is much more of an architecture issue than a code issue.
[15:57:15] <jmkasunich2> yes, exactly
[15:58:15] <rayh> There will be parts of EMC that we need to work around while fixing others.
[15:58:21] <Imperator_> the motion controller and HAL is easy to understand, and i can do the things i want do do there
[15:58:27] <Imperator_> in EMC2
[15:58:44] <jmkasunich2> interactions between the parts should be limited to documented paths.
[15:59:00] <rayh> Yes but there are big considerations in shmem and the future.
[15:59:32] <jmkasunich2> Paul has hinted that RTAI are abandoning SHMEM, a decision that I simply can't fathom
[15:59:38] <dave-e> and hopefully the future contains plans for spindle encoder and plc
[16:00:02] <rayh> Eventually we will need consider almost every part of EMC.
[16:00:32] <jmkasunich2> but the goal should be an overall architecture that allows the details of each part to be considered in isolation
[16:00:36] <Imperator_> jmkasunich2 how do you mean that ??
[16:00:49] <Imperator_> that SHMEM stuff ?
[16:00:54] <rayh> Not exactly isolation
[16:01:13] <rayh> but at least there should be clear connectors between the parts.
[16:01:44] <rayh> Perhaps les's empty queue can serve as an example
[16:02:12] <les> yeah
[16:02:14] <rayh> Bigger than this average step size and it works.
[16:02:22] <jmkasunich2> right - what I mean is that a developer should be able to say "OK, I know this module must accept these inputs, and produce those outputs, but I can do that internally in any way I want, without worrying that some other module is depending on how I do it"
[16:03:13] <dave-e> internally that is....only the comm protocol is standard...??
[16:03:40] <rayh> brb. Bread baking time.
[16:03:44] <jmkasunich2> comm protocol, command sets, shmem structures, it depends on the modules in question
[16:03:48] <paul_c> * paul_c *will* have something to say about comms
[16:03:58] <les> ah good
[16:04:00] <jmkasunich2> wondered where he was
[16:04:07] <paul_c> Zzzzzz
[16:04:11] <les> heh
[16:04:29] <robin_z> suffer from post-prandial narcolepsy??
[16:04:32] <jmkasunich2> you were up late last night, nearly as late as me, and i have a 5 hour advantage
[16:04:51] <paul_c> Errr... Correction John....
[16:04:58] <jmkasunich2> up later than me?
[16:05:22] <paul_c> You disappeared, presumably for some sleep - I hung around to continue the conversation.
[16:05:32] <les> Paul seemingly does not sleep...at all.
[16:06:15] <Imperator_> jmkasunich2: If im right, there was a picture of the comunicatoon im EMC2 on your homepage ??
[16:07:09] <jmkasunich2> sort of
[16:07:34] <Imperator_> can you give me the link !!!
[16:07:58] <jmkasunich> this one? http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/EMC_Docs/EMC_Home.htm
[16:08:07] <Imperator_> what I realy want to do is drawing the big picture of EMC2
[16:08:16] <jmkasunich> that is emc1, and based on my poor understanding of it from 2003
[16:08:57] <Imperator_> jep, but very good for now
[16:09:00] <Imperator_> thanks
[16:10:23] <rayh> Bread looks great. Anyone dropping in for lunch.
[16:10:36] <dave-e> be right over ;-)
[16:10:41] <jmkasunich2> it won't be warm by the time I get there
[16:11:08] <rayh> Still trying to get it to taste and break open like those great German rolls.
[16:11:27] <dave-e> i used to pull the same thing on my fellow workers when I was a fire lookout and they were at least 9 mi away on another peak
[16:11:43] <rayh> Right.
[16:11:52] <rayh> I
[16:12:06] <rayh> m confident that we are not so far apart
[16:12:15] <rayh> that there is not common ground.
[16:13:42] <les> JMK your diagram helps
[16:14:03] <jmkasunich2> it's not really mine, based on something from NIST
[16:14:13] <jmkasunich2> I added a few more details in the lower section is all
[16:14:54] <les> so since thr TP is RT if the queue underflows....RT stuff is caught in a loop filling it back up...and servo calcs are not in that loop...so motion pauses for an instant
[16:14:59] <Imperator_> does anybody knows a great (free) programm for making such diagramms
[16:15:14] <jmkasunich2> no, servo calcs are still in the loop
[16:15:20] <paul_c> Imperator_: Dia
[16:15:26] <jmkasunich2> but the queue is empty, so the commanded position is constant
[16:15:56] <rayh> Could not get my head around the Dia instruction set.
[16:16:03] <Imperator_> paul_c: http://www.gnome.org/projects/dia/
[16:16:33] <les> ok so only that one instant of underflowed queue crates the hiccup?
[16:16:37] <paul_c> yup. Or you can try Qcad
[16:18:10] <les> then there are at least two servo cycles for each queue calculation as it tries to refill?
[16:18:19] <jmkasunich2> les: I really don't know... I can predict the underflow from first principles (data out faster than data in, your're gonna run out) but beyond that I'm in the dark
[16:19:39] <les> well heh size is just a declaration in the header file....put some more zeros in there....
[16:19:52] <les> which will break something else I guess
[16:25:30] <rayh> wiki.linux.org kicks up an error if you try preferences.
[16:25:57] <dave-e> indeed
[16:28:29] <jmkasunich2> hi steven
[16:28:41] <SWPadnos> hi there
[16:28:55] <paul_c> Imperator_: Munich to Washington for 410 EUR
[16:31:14] <paul_c> Coo.. 396Euros
[16:31:52] <les> the fuel per passenger costs more than that!
[16:32:16] <paul_c> they buy fuel in $
[16:32:27] <les> oh so it's free...
[16:32:28] <SWPadnos> not on a 777
[16:32:52] <les> 777 is unusually clean
[16:33:03] <SWPadnos> it also carries around 500 passengers :)
[16:33:48] <SWPadnos> what was the empty queue thing that was just being discussed? AJ's logger missed it
[16:35:01] <les> Paul, JMK, so if queueWIL run out from first principles...would it not help to check and top off at every availible opportunity...like the ends of g0s or right after any programmed stop?
[16:35:26] <les> and of course have it large
[16:35:52] <les> SWP still discussing it
[16:36:05] <SWPadnos> I see - I'm just at a bit of a disadvantage :)
[16:36:47] <les> hiccups wil be benign at some places in the motion profile...others not
[16:37:05] <anonimasu> iab
[16:37:32] <paul_c> The trick is to make sure the queue does not empty unexpectedly
[16:37:42] <les> pre-queueing the entire motion program might become impractical at some point
[16:38:02] <anonimasu> is there a way to calulate how many segments you need to keep in the queue?
[16:38:09] <anonimasu> or can you queue up more while the queue is running?
[16:38:18] <paul_c> Don't need to pre-process the file.. That just adds delays to the execution.
[16:38:18] <jmkasunich2> les: if I understand it correctly, the commands that go into the queue are moved from shmem to the queue by emcmot_command_handler()
[16:38:41] <jmkasunich2> it only runs once per servo period, and can only handle one command per run
[16:39:13] <les> There must be more than one command then
[16:39:18] <SWPadnos> a decision had to be made (unless it already has been) whether the system is intended for slow machines (which implies as much precalculation as possible) or fast machines (which implies creating data as it's needed), or somewhere in between
[16:39:32] <SWPadnos> or adaptive, as the case may be
[16:41:29] <les> It would seem queue filling is kind of a servo action in itself
[16:41:46] <anonimasu> maybe that should be in a separate loop..
[16:43:34] <SWPadnos> if (depth<MINDEPTH) { calculate at least MINFILL motion segments }
[16:44:02] <jmkasunich2> SWP - are you talking about doing that in realtime space, or user space?
[16:44:04] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[16:44:23] <SWPadnos> good question - it depends on FP considerations, I'd imagine
[16:44:44] <SWPadnos> also whether the segment calculator runs in an interrupt context
[16:44:48] <jmkasunich2> understand that I know nothing of the internals of segmentqueue, but in the original motion controller, there is a TP queue in realtime space
[16:44:51] <SWPadnos> (which I suspect it doesn't)
[16:44:56] <les> If detecting queue contents required one message and if that message occurs each servo cycle it seems it could stay non empty
[16:45:26] <SWPadnos> is there a running count of "servo updates done"?
[16:45:32] <jmkasunich2> cannonical motion commands are sent to RT space, and the command_handler parses them and stuffs them in the queue, then later in the same 1mS thread the TP removes them as needed
[16:45:39] <SWPadnos> yes there is - it's in /proc/emc/status
[16:46:18] <paul_c> heartbeat
[16:46:28] <SWPadnos> yep - I was just remembering that.
[16:46:42] <les> of course if planned motion distances were shorter than servo cycle difference it would alias
[16:46:52] <SWPadnos> how is that transferred to the level the command_handler runs at?
[16:46:54] <jmkasunich2> in the original TP, I know it's impossible to put more than one item into the queue per servo period, and I think it's impossible to remove more than one item per servo period
[16:47:08] <jmkasunich2> shemem
[16:47:15] <les> ok
[16:47:26] <jmkasunich2> user space code writes a command into shmem
[16:47:27] <SWPadnos> if the command_handler keeps track of the number of segments it has created, and can see the heartbeat, it will know when the queue needs replenishing
[16:47:36] <anonimasu> hm, that's crappy..
[16:47:48] <jmkasunich2> command handler (at 1mS increments) sees the command and extracts it
[16:48:05] <jmkasunich2> the user space code sees that it's extracted, and writes another one
[16:48:09] <anonimasu> I think you would need to be able to push a heap of segments into the queue..
[16:48:15] <anonimasu> to keep the overhead..
[16:48:24] <jmkasunich2> but the user space code could easily be suspended for tens of ms
[16:48:35] <jmkasunich2> so 1 message per mS is the upper bound
[16:48:39] <Imperator_> paul_c: where have you seen that offer for a flight ?
[16:49:41] <les> ! message per millisecond or 1 message per servo cycle?
[16:49:42] <anonimasu> am I right if I say that if you have very small motions < 1 period you will empty the queue.. succesively until you run out of segments..
[16:49:55] <jmkasunich2> one per servo cycle
[16:49:59] <anonimasu> if you have many.. that is
[16:49:59] <les> k
[16:50:09] <jmkasunich2> for convenience in this discussion, please consider servo cycle to be 1mS
[16:50:19] <anonimasu> if you could push more segments per cycle that would solve it..
[16:50:40] <jmkasunich2> one approach would be to implement the queue itself so that it could be written to by user space code
[16:50:51] <anonimasu> hm, or another realtime proc..
[16:51:05] <anonimasu> that just manages filling the queue
[16:51:09] <jmkasunich2> user space code is bursty - it can generate hundreds of points in a mS or so, then gets suspended for 10s of ms
[16:51:36] <jmkasunich2> anon: that won't work - the sync issue is between user space and RT
[16:51:43] <jmkasunich2> RT is periodic, user is bursty
[16:51:53] <jmkasunich2> the transmission between the two must handle that
[16:52:15] <anonimasu> well, if that's the way it is then you need to have the queue large enough to accomodate for that..
[16:52:25] <les> I don't exactly understand what is on the queue....if it was cubic coefficients for a bunch of linked segments it should usually MUCH fewer than the original individual segment number
[16:52:35] <SWPadnos> does the command_handler split commands into 1ms segments, or are the segments possibly served over a number of servo cycles?
[16:52:44] <jmkasunich2> the latter
[16:52:50] <jmkasunich2> normally one command is one line or arc
[16:53:00] <jmkasunich2> so they usually arrive only a few per second
[16:53:11] <SWPadnos> Ah - OK.
[16:53:12] <jmkasunich2> the TP splits a command into 1mS segments in RT
[16:53:25] <jmkasunich2> (remember, I'm describing the normal motion controller, not segmentqueue)
[16:53:31] <paul_c> Imperator_: www.opodo.de flying on the 22nd & returning on the 30th
[16:54:02] <SWPadnos> it shouldn;t matter which planner / interpreter you're talking about
[16:54:19] <jmkasunich2> well segmentqueue is different, I just don;t know how different
[16:54:26] <les> Does anyone know precisely what one queue location contains?
[16:54:32] <SWPadnos> Me either - I made that statement on principle :)
[16:54:37] <les> it's a linked list right?
[16:54:41] <jmkasunich2> in which controller les?
[16:54:49] <les> SQ
[16:54:54] <jmkasunich2> no clue
[16:55:23] <les> same here
[16:55:42] <SWPadnos> checking CVS
[16:55:45] <les> ok that is on the list of things to learn
[16:55:47] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is too
[16:55:52] <SWPadnos> (could be a while ;) )
[16:56:00] <anonimasu> I've got a copy on my mill..
[16:56:06] <paul_c> the SQ & TP stacks are fixed length arrays.
[16:56:38] <les> I would expect a 3x4 array of numbers if it is done in machine space
[16:57:15] <les> 3 axes, 4 cubic coefficients of the time parameterized motion
[16:57:34] <anonimasu> it's in the SEGMENT struct isnt it?
[16:57:37] <SWPadnos> 6 axes though
[16:58:12] <SWPadnos> the SEGMENTQUEUE has a pointer to an array of (int size) SEGMENT structs
[16:58:18] <les> 6? I though SQ was 3 axis cart only (unfortunately)
[16:58:32] <SWPadnos> could be, but emc is 6, so the system needs to allow for that
[16:58:35] <jmkasunich2> les: would you expect a spline to cover a fixed period of time? or to cover a single command like a line or arc? or somewhere inbetween
[16:59:18] <anonimasu> ah I found it..
[16:59:20] <SWPadnos> so the queue is of a particular size, but the array is allocated at runtime
[16:59:31] <les> ok swp...but rogier defined the word segment as many linked basic segments
[16:59:37] <anonimasu> double a1,b1,c1,d1; /* coefficients for the 3rd polynomial for
[16:59:37] <anonimasu> the speed adjusting in phase 1 */
[16:59:53] <SWPadnos> OK
[16:59:55] <anonimasu> line 68 of segmentqueue.h
[16:59:56] <les> the splines as I understand it would be of variable length
[17:00:02] <anonimasu> is where the struct begins
[17:00:11] <les> certainly from the paper...it shows this
[17:00:23] <anonimasu> brb dinner
[17:00:44] <les> k
[17:01:56] <SWPadnos> this is unfortunate - I'm gonig to have to leave in a few minutes, and I know that I won't be available for the devchat the next two Sundays. :(
[17:02:03] <les> but the servo controller (PID) would calc desired position vs time at a constant rate
[17:02:28] <les> so one queue location might be used for many many servo updates
[17:02:40] <les> As I understand it...
[17:02:47] <les> this might not be the case
[17:03:59] <jmkasunich2> les: that's what I would expect
[17:04:21] <les> yes it makes the most sense
[17:04:24] <les> hi jon
[17:04:48] <elson> is everybody staying at the Motel 6 on Quince Orchard rd for the EMC codefest?
[17:04:52] <SWPadnos> nope
[17:05:03] <les> It could also be solved velocities...but that would be silly
[17:05:05] <paul_c> Not a chance...
[17:05:11] <stevestallings> I will be commuting locally.
[17:05:17] <paul_c> Way, way too close to a rail line.
[17:05:32] <elson> OK, then, other than Steve, where are people staying?
[17:05:52] <paul_c> Extended Stay America.
[17:05:58] <SWPadnos> Hampton Inn Germantown/Gaithersburg
[17:06:20] <jmkasunich2> I will be at the model 6
[17:06:30] <SWPadnos> I'll take model 7 :)
[17:06:38] <elson> And, otherwise, what airport would be good to fly into? DCA or Baltimore?
[17:06:50] <SWPadnos> IAD
[17:06:54] <SWPadnos> I thikn - how long a drive is it?
[17:07:08] <stevestallings> Hampton Inn will have a lobby breakfast area large enough for after hours meetings if we don't make too much fuss.
[17:07:23] <SWPadnos> and free internet access as well
[17:07:25] <dmess> anon... you reviewed those calcs at all...
[17:07:31] <elson> Dulles? That's a LONG way. I guess the Metro serves Dulles now, as well as DCA.
[17:07:39] <paul_c> * paul_c will have a large(ish) room at ESA
[17:07:48] <stevestallings> No metro at Dulles yet 8-(
[17:07:52] <SWPadnos> well - with a car, it looks like a 20-30 minute drive
[17:08:04] <SWPadnos> When do you plan on arriving?
[17:08:24] <jmkasunich2> how expensive was the Hampton Inn?
[17:08:33] <paul_c> There is a Blue van that runs Dulles to Gaithersburg for $28
[17:08:34] <elson> 20-30 min from IAD to Gaithersburg? At rush hour? No way.
[17:08:58] <elson> $28 sounds reasonable.
[17:09:39] <elson> I'm hoping to get into the area on Sunday evening. Still have to check the airlines.
[17:09:54] <jmkasunich2> can I add you to the list?
[17:10:24] <elson> Add me to the list? Yes, I've made the decision to come.
[17:10:30] <jmkasunich2> OK
[17:10:56] <SWPadnos> cool - are you bringing a USC, or should I? :)
[17:11:13] <jmkasunich2> I'll be bringing mine ;-)
[17:11:21] <elson> OK, anyone know what the Hampto Inn runs for 5 nights? That is a nice place.
[17:11:26] <SWPadnos> heh - we should be set then
[17:11:32] <SWPadnos> $109/night
[17:11:40] <paul_c> ouch
[17:11:49] <SWPadnos> well - 107.10, with AAA
[17:12:07] <SWPadnos> ESA was atound $95 without the full week stay
[17:12:10] <SWPadnos> around
[17:12:20] <elson> I was not planning on bringing a USC. I will have some motors and a PWM box there. I suppose I could bring a USC SPROM. Plug that in and it is a USC.
[17:13:08] <elson> Ouch! That't $535 plus tax!
[17:13:13] <jmkasunich2> the difference between hampton and motel 6 is about $50 a night.... $200 total
[17:13:25] <SWPadnos> I'm allergic to Motel 6 :)
[17:13:37] <SWPadnos> (plus I get free breakfast)
[17:13:38] <elson> Will ANYONE be staying at Motel 6?
[17:13:52] <jmkasunich2> so far I'm the only one, and I'm starting to waver
[17:14:14] <paul_c> ESA.. $68 per night for two.
[17:14:41] <dmess> no one campin' in the parking lot??
[17:14:44] <jmkasunich2> just have to find somebody I don't mind sharing a room with
[17:15:01] <paul_c> * paul_c plays cupid
[17:15:08] <jmkasunich2> * jmkasunich2 hasn't shared a hotel room with someone not his wife in about 20 years
[17:15:16] <jmkasunich2> and would like to keep it that way
[17:15:52] <dmess> sharing a room or jammys??
[17:15:52] <paul_c> From what I hear, they ain't fussed who marries who over in SF
[17:15:54] <stevestallings> bring your wife ???
[17:16:02] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I should check ESA again
[17:16:02] <jmkasunich2> NO!
[17:16:16] <elson> OK, the ESA at the week rate sounds OK at $68. I'll try there.
[17:16:32] <elson> We were thinking about bringing the whole family, and driving it,
[17:16:32] <jmkasunich2> I might do the same
[17:16:46] <elson> but that would mean pulling the kids out of school.
[17:17:19] <dmess> we've had fly ins with 22 ppl on the floor of the clubhouse in the am.... no one ever had any regregts
[17:17:20] <elson> Who will have a car there. Matt Shaver and Steve, I guess.
[17:17:26] <SWPadnos> I will
[17:17:39] <SWPadnos> Gotta have that to get to Tom Sarris and Sala Thai :)
[17:17:41] <jmkasunich2> I will (a truck, only room for one passenger)
[17:18:11] <elson> OK, only remaining question is what airport and how to get to the ESA from there.
[17:18:59] <SWPadnos> Google Maps says 34 niles and around 39 minutes from IAD
[17:19:03] <SWPadnos> miles.
[17:19:10] <SWPadnos> 34 niles would be a long way indeed
[17:20:21] <paul_c> http://www.ExtendedStayAmerica.com/findHotel/travelCriteria.asp?hotelID=695 - A little cheaper than Gathersburg
[17:20:22] <elson> Well, since nobody else is suggesting BWI, I guess I'll put that out of consideration (Maybe).
[17:21:04] <anonimasu> iab
[17:21:05] <jmkasunich2> paul: how far from NIST is that?
[17:21:41] <SWPadnos> OK - I thought so - the ESA are around $90-$100/night without the full week stay
[17:21:53] <SWPadnos> (so I might as well get points and miles for my trouble :) )
[17:21:56] <jmkasunich2> yep, that's the kicker
[17:22:23] <elson> So what is a "full week stay"? 5 days or 7?
[17:22:30] <jmkasunich2> 7 I believe
[17:23:22] <elson> paying for 7 days at $68 is still chjaper than 5 at Hampton Inn at $107.
[17:24:16] <paul_c> jmkasunich2: ^.42 miles
[17:24:27] <SWPadnos> The Hampton is a little more now, I thin - like $115 or so
[17:24:30] <paul_c> jmkasunich2: 6.42 miles
[17:24:35] <SWPadnos> Well - gotta run - see you all later
[17:24:45] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[17:25:08] <jmkasunich2> are you staying at germantown or gaithersburg?
[17:28:05] <paul_c> * paul_c is staying at the Gaithersburg ESA
[17:31:02] <Imperator_> hmmm, what is best to travel from Washington to New York ?? Bus or flight ??
[17:31:29] <jmkasunich2> define "best"? fastest, cheapest, most convenient?
[17:31:38] <Imperator_> all :-)
[17:31:57] <Imperator_> cheap is good if i don't have to die
[17:32:17] <stevestallings> train to Washington, Gaithersburg is another matter....
[17:32:30] <elson> There's also Amtrak.
[17:32:39] <les> well I am going to go outside a bit...it is very nice here
[17:32:57] <Imperator_> what is Amtrak ?
[17:33:00] <les> one last note to ponder....
[17:33:14] <stevestallings> Amtrak == train
[17:33:29] <Imperator_> ok
[17:34:27] <les> If SQ elements are variable path lengths (as in the paper) then the element must contain time information for when that particular cubic is valid
[17:34:43] <les> well bbl
[17:34:58] <jmkasunich2> not true - the elements just define the path, the TP determines when you get there
[17:35:28] <les> something has to tell it to switch cubics...right?
[17:36:16] <les> and if cubic a is to be in effect longer than cubic b...the info must be somewhere
[17:37:03] <jmkasunich2> it switches when it gets to the end of one cubic
[17:37:19] <les> where is the end?
[17:37:30] <jmkasunich2> t=1.0 for most splines
[17:38:04] <les> ok that would imply fixed sement motion times
[17:38:14] <les> unless it were scaled
[17:38:32] <les> and then those factors would have to be somewhere
[17:38:47] <acemi> I want to use different HOME_SWITCH_INDEX for each axis. I change HOME_SWITCH_INDEX value in emc.ini. 2 for X, 3 for Y and 4 for Z. But only the home switch of X axis works. I don't find what is wrong. any idea?
[17:38:48] <elson> Well, thanks for the hotel info, I will make my reservations now. See you all in a couple of weeks!
[17:40:19] <elson> acemi, is that with 2 parallel ports? What emcaux are you using?
[17:40:37] <acemi> there is only one paralel port
[17:40:47] <acemi> 378
[17:41:07] <acemi> ı don't need spare & probe
[17:41:34] <elson> OH, well, then the 2,3,4 etc bits are motion output, aren't they? There's only a couple of input bits available on the first PP.
[17:42:28] <acemi> theese are pin number or output index number?
[17:42:30] <paul_c> Also input bits
[17:42:47] <paul_c> Two sets of INDEX numbers on the parport
[17:43:02] <paul_c> 0-11 for o/p
[17:43:09] <paul_c> 0-4 for i/p
[17:45:27] <elson> Ah, the numbers start over for input. But, in the .ini file, I don't see any way to set the home index for each axis. I know how it is coded internally for setups with a 2nd parallel port or one of my interfaces - ie. NOT in the ini file.
[17:46:07] <acemi> I use HOME_SWITCH_INDEX value for each axis
[17:46:34] <paul_c> you been playing with the bdi-4 branch....
[17:46:40] <acemi> yes
[17:47:02] <paul_c> Haven't finished that code yet..
[17:47:34] <acemi> can I use only one home switch?
[17:48:09] <paul_c> At the moment, One input for all three (or four)
[17:48:17] <acemi> ok
[17:57:13] <les> I checked the paper...The TP could check for matched derivatives between a queue element and it's neighbor each servo update and switch elements when that condition was reached...but it would be a bit computationally inefficient to do so. Seems just having a singer precalculated valid time interval as an additional queue element data would be faster
[17:57:29] <les> I do not know which is done in the code.
[17:58:05] <les> But if the queue element structure has more than just the equation coefficients that might be what it is.
[17:58:09] <jmkasunich2> faster and more robust. checking for "matched" anything is risky... floats rarely match perfectly, how much mismatch do you allow
[17:58:40] <les> yup
[17:59:03] <les> I cannot go much past the math though. I can follow little of the code.
[18:02:41] <les> off to hit more white balls in the woods..then beer in the clubhouse while watching masters.
[18:02:43] <les> later
[18:03:02] <Imperator_> and into BMW's :-)
[18:03:18] <les> you remembered
[18:03:23] <Imperator_> :-)
[18:03:25] <les> yeah made a nice dent.
[18:03:47] <les> later
[18:04:06] <Imperator_> cu
[18:31:44] <asdfqwega> Meep?
[18:32:36] <asdfqwega> ...or since I'm not robin: Qwee?
[18:35:15] <paul_c> Rats, ship, sinking.
[18:35:30] <paul_c> * paul_c disappears too.
[18:39:07] <jmkasunich2> jmkasunich2 is now known as jmk_away
[19:27:49] <Bowika> i have this error when run emc.run in emc2:
[19:28:13] <Bowika> Application initialization failed: no display name and no $DISPLAY environment variable
[19:28:15] <Bowika> Error in startup script: invalid command name "emc_ini"
[19:28:17] <Bowika> while executing
[19:28:18] <Bowika> "emc_ini "AXES" "TRAJ""
[19:28:20] <Bowika> invoked from within
[19:28:21] <Bowika> "set numaxes [emc_ini "AXES" "TRAJ"]"
[19:28:23] <Bowika> (file "/usr/local/nist/emc/tcl/tkemc.tcl" line 59)
[19:29:30] <robin_z> well, is failed because there is no display name and no $DISPLAY environment variable
[19:29:42] <robin_z> try setting $DISPLAY to 0:0
[19:30:19] <robin_z> DISPLAY=0:0 emc.run
[19:31:12] <robin_z> I can only assume that you either have no X running, or you have su'd to become not the user who started X
[19:31:15] <Bowika> i was a loser.......i run it in text console
[19:31:25] <robin_z> well doh!
[19:31:26] <robin_z> :)
[19:31:28] <Bowika> i'm sorry..........
[19:31:32] <Bowika> :)
[19:37:56] <anonimasu> export DISPLAY=""
[19:38:29] <anonimasu> or to whatever place you want to display it at
[19:38:29] <anonimasu> :)
[19:56:19] <anonimasu> :)
[20:30:11] <jmk_away> jmk_away is now known as jmkasunich2
[20:30:45] <alex_joni> hello
[20:30:49] <jmkasunich2> hi alex
[20:30:58] <alex_joni> anything interesting while I was gone?
[20:31:02] <jmkasunich2> just spend a couple hours sitting outside in the sun with the dog
[20:31:07] <alex_joni> nice ;)
[20:31:11] <jmkasunich2> so I haven't a clue
[20:31:23] <alex_joni> heh
[20:31:31] <alex_joni> I'll go through the logs
[20:36:39] <asdfqwega> just curious...where ARE the logs to this channel?
[20:37:07] <alex_joni> asdfqwega: I have my logger lurking around
[20:37:15] <alex_joni> looger_aj, bookmark
[20:37:27] <alex_joni> logger_aj, bookmark
[20:37:27] <alex_joni> See
[20:37:31] <asdfqwega> ah
[20:39:24] <asdfqwega> Hm...maybe I shouldn't have asked...this is going to be too much to read :)
[20:40:20] <asdfqwega> I know...I'll print it! :P
[20:41:30] <alex_joni> asdfqwega: I'll mail you a tar if you want
[20:41:35] <alex_joni> last few months :D
[20:46:55] <alex_joni> pretty quiet at this time
[20:52:12] <asdfqwega> Yeah...it's warm out, and people are getting outside
[20:52:31] <alex_joni> right
[20:52:31] <asdfqwega> That, and it's second quarter for the business folks
[21:10:34] <alex_joni> alex_joni is now known as alex_joni_away
[21:21:17] <robin_z> wheeeeee!
[21:21:33] <robin_z> * robin_z crunches some html
[21:23:33] <robin_z> not pleasant, but it paye the wages
[21:34:45] <les> what a perfect day
[21:35:08] <les> turn on the masters...It's like this here
[21:35:18] <les> I am 2 or 3 hours north
[21:36:02] <les> flowers, green grass, blue sky, warm, no wind
[21:37:18] <alex_joni_away> alex_joni_away is now known as alex_joni
[21:37:50] <alex_joni> les: nice
[21:38:42] <Imperator_> hey Alex
[21:38:55] <alex_joni> wassup Martin?
[21:38:56] <Imperator_> John said you have to come to emc fest
[21:39:00] <alex_joni> heh.. yeah
[21:39:04] <Imperator_> :-)
[21:39:05] <alex_joni> I would .. but can't
[21:39:13] <Imperator_> 400 EUR for the flight
[21:39:16] <alex_joni> and now it's too late
[21:39:25] <alex_joni> can't get a visum in time
[21:39:25] <Imperator_> its never to late
[21:39:34] <Imperator_> ups
[21:39:45] <Imperator_> are you a sportsman ?
[21:39:48] <alex_joni> forgot about that?
[21:40:00] <alex_joni> heh... kinda, but not good-enough
[21:40:15] <alex_joni> too much for my swimming skills .. LOL
[21:40:35] <Imperator_> bad, otherwhise you get a german in two days, then visa is not needed anymore ;-)
[21:40:46] <alex_joni> how come?
[21:40:55] <Imperator_> only a joke
[21:41:05] <alex_joni> right ;)
[21:41:19] <alex_joni> anyways.. I've been thinking
[21:41:36] <alex_joni> the NML part is not *that* bad
[21:41:36] <Imperator_> if the big socker clubs need a player from a other country, they get sometimes very fast germans
[21:41:43] <alex_joni> lol
[21:41:57] <alex_joni> I don't like soccer that much
[21:42:17] <Imperator_> stupid game
[21:42:26] <alex_joni> I like volleyball
[21:42:30] <alex_joni> played some myself
[21:42:30] <Imperator_> ok you want to say something about NML
[21:42:45] <Imperator_> volleyball is ok
[21:42:45] <alex_joni> not really ;)
[21:43:06] <alex_joni> I think we really need some guides on what should be done on emc
[21:43:09] <robin_z> alex_joni: if you begine to think the implenetations is "not that bad" its time to visit soe real programs again
[21:43:19] <robin_z> * robin_z cant type
[21:43:26] <alex_joni> didn't say anything about implementations
[21:43:29] <alex_joni> *g*
[21:43:32] <robin_z> k
[21:43:38] <robin_z> ok,
[21:43:40] <alex_joni> that can be adjusted
[21:43:49] <alex_joni> I was thinking on removing the N in NML
[21:43:50] <robin_z> so I agree the external appearance of NML is not that bad
[21:44:00] <robin_z> as a system, it works
[21:56:26] <asdfqwega> ...and the silence was deafening...
[21:56:29] <SWP_Away> oiuch
[21:56:32] <SWP_Away> ouch
[21:56:35] <SWP_Away> arrggghhh
[21:56:39] <alex_joni> what?
[21:56:47] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[21:56:50] <SWPadnos> huh?
[21:58:09] <robin_z> summon dancing girls!
[21:58:23] <SWPadnos> OK - they're here. Now what ;)
[21:59:15] <asdfqwega> impuse 666
[21:59:24] <asdfqwega> set GOD_MODE ON
[21:59:41] <asdfqwega> s/impuse/impulse
[21:59:56] <asdfqwega> GIVE_ALL_WEAPONS
[22:00:14] <SWPadnos> you can't do that on this server - we're using PunkBuster
[22:00:21] <robin_z> well, the next bit involves dancing girls and some baby oil
[22:00:31] <SWPadnos> Got it - I'll be back
[22:00:34] <asdfqwega> No rubber bands?
[22:00:43] <SWPadnos> I hate rubber...
[22:00:56] <SWPadnos> bands
[22:01:19] <robin_z> I like that bit in "wargames" where he hacks in by typing "overide all passwords"
[22:01:36] <asdfqwega> Hm...tongue-in-cheek book idea: 101 BDSM things you can do with office supplies
[22:01:43] <robin_z> hmmm
[22:01:50] <robin_z> lets think ...
[22:01:54] <SWPadnos> system: OK. ... HACKER COMMAND:
[22:01:55] <anonimasu> :p
[22:01:56] <anonimasu> haha
[22:02:05] <robin_z> paper clips, check.
[22:02:17] <asdfqwega> Heh...I haven't thought about that movie in ages
[22:02:21] <robin_z> rubber bands, check.
[22:02:43] <SWPadnos> or Jurassic park (girl, loking at 3d graphic rendering of system modules and stuff): "Hey - this is UNIX - I know this"
[22:02:51] <robin_z> tippex ... err, ...err, ok. I give up .. what BDSM thing can you do with tippex?
[22:03:00] <asdfqwega> I remember the kid also 'phreaked' the payphone with a soda pull-tab
[22:03:23] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:03:23] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:03:27] <anonimasu> that's hillarious
[22:03:41] <robin_z> at least "the matrix" tried to make it real
[22:03:44] <anonimasu> it's running next or somthing I think..
[22:03:50] <anonimasu> or whatever it was called
[22:03:52] <anonimasu> cde
[22:04:03] <asdfqwega> He also had reams of incriminating printouts of all the phone numbers he'd wardialed
[22:04:25] <anonimasu> even more hillarious ;)
[22:04:26] <alex_joni> heh
[22:05:04] <asdfqwega> Is it just me, or is it fun to pick movies apart?
[22:05:20] <anonimasu> hm, I think it's just you
[22:05:42] <asdfqwega> No, I don't think it's just me :)
[22:06:07] <asdfqwega> See also on the web "The Complete Bastardization of The Matrix"
[22:06:08] <anonimasu> hm, anyways good night
[22:06:48] <SWPadnos> http://www.rinkworks.com - go to the "Movie-a-minute" and "Book-a-minute" reviews
[22:07:36] <SWPadnos> http://www.rinkworks.com/movieaminute/m/matrix.shtml
[22:08:45] <anonimasu> hm, I wonder if you can have icons with openbox..
[22:08:59] <SWPadnos> Of course.
[22:09:07] <SWPadnos> what's openbox?
[22:09:18] <anonimasu> a wm..
[22:09:27] <SWPadnos> ah
[22:09:39] <asdfqwega> link?
[22:09:54] <SWPadnos> icculus.org/openbox
[22:10:02] <anonimasu> http://icculus.org/openbox/2/
[22:10:06] <anonimasu> http://icculus.org/openbox/
[22:10:08] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:10:11] <anonimasu> it's nice and fast..
[22:10:23] <SWPadnos> and even anime works :)
[22:10:27] <anonimasu> to get icons I think you need to run gnome on it..
[22:10:38] <SWPadnos> that wouldn't make sense
[22:10:56] <SWPadnos> if it's a WM, then it whould be doing many of the things that Gnome does
[22:11:11] <SWPadnos> (basically, everything except for session management)
[22:11:21] <anonimasu> :)
[22:11:36] <alex_joni> I see dead people
[22:11:48] <anonimasu> I need to take a large shot at fixing my laptop's X
[22:12:01] <SWPadnos> though I do see a gnome foot in one of the screenshots
[22:12:03] <alex_joni> shooting it won't work
[22:12:11] <anonimasu> so I get 3d acceleration.. and configure the wm so it's work-able
[22:12:21] <SWPadnos> what graphic card?
[22:12:28] <anonimasu> radeon 9800(256mb) mobile
[22:12:43] <SWPadnos> that should do fine with ATi's driver
[22:12:46] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:12:51] <anonimasu> but I cant unpack it since I dont run debisn
[22:12:53] <anonimasu> debian
[22:12:57] <SWPadnos> what distro?
[22:13:02] <anonimasu> A5 There are several options for having icons on your desktop. In no particular order:
[22:13:02] <anonimasu> * kdesktop - screenshot
[22:13:02] <anonimasu> * Nautilus - screenshot
[22:13:02] <anonimasu> * ROX Desktop - screenshot - Start with the --pinboard=PINBOARD option
[22:13:02] <anonimasu> * idesk - screenshot
[22:13:05] <anonimasu> slack
[22:13:27] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I'm not familiar with their package management tools
[22:13:50] <anonimasu> there's somthing like it but I dont use it.
[22:15:08] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to sleep
[22:15:11] <alex_joni> night guys
[22:15:14] <anonimasu> night alex
[22:15:27] <SWPadnos> I can almost tell you how to do it with RedHat, Debian, and Gentoo, but I can't even come close with Slackware
[22:15:30] <SWPadnos> see ya Alex
[22:15:44] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: the trouble is that the only driver I've found comes as a .deb
[22:15:55] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: other then that it's no big deal..
[22:16:11] <anonimasu> :)
[22:16:13] <SWPadnos> have you tried gatos?
[22:16:14] <alex_joni> an0n: mail me the deb, I'll mail you the content ;)
[22:16:34] <SWPadnos> can't you just untar a deb (or close to that)?
[22:16:45] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: on debian you can
[22:16:55] <anonimasu> what's your mail
[22:17:26] <SWPadnos> http://www.rage3d.com/content/articles/atilinuxhowto/
[22:17:30] <Imperator_> there is a new tool to use dep on rpm based distros
[22:18:03] <Imperator_> how was its name ??
[22:18:34] <SWPadnos> there's rpm2targz for going from RMP to ... .tar.gz
[22:18:50] <anonimasu> I wonder if you could hack apt to work..
[22:19:18] <SWPadnos> things would get put in the wrong place, probably
[22:21:08] <anonimasu> ah there's no need it comes as a tar.gz
[22:21:12] <anonimasu> I just looked at the wrong place
[22:21:22] <anonimasu> alex_joni: thanks anyway
[22:21:34] <alex_joni> right
[22:21:37] <alex_joni> well. bye
[22:21:56] <anonimasu> the joy of running doom3 on linux ^_^
[22:22:32] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:24:17] <anonimasu> I'll fix that tomorrow and install idesk..
[22:24:51] <SWPadnos> what's idesk?
[22:25:16] <SWPadnos> (curious, aren't I :) )
[22:25:17] <anonimasu> a program that gives you icons..
[22:25:23] <SWPadnos> ah
[22:25:28] <anonimasu> then I'll fix myself a OSX theme.
[22:25:33] <SWPadnos> Have you tried WindowMaker?
[22:26:19] <anonimasu> yes
[22:26:28] <SWPadnos> How recently?
[22:27:03] <SWPadnos> I haven't fiddled with it for several years, but it looked pretty promising then
[22:27:16] <SWPadnos> (not quite as good as NextStep, but still good)
[22:27:27] <anonimasu> pretty recently..
[22:27:43] <anonimasu> but I didnt really like it..
[22:27:47] <anonimasu> fvwm2 was more my style
[22:27:51] <SWPadnos> interesting
[22:28:03] <SWPadnos> How about BlackBox?
[22:28:09] <SWPadnos> (I think that was it)
[22:28:59] <anonimasu> nope..
[22:29:02] <anonimasu> openbox is a blackbox clone..
[22:29:15] <SWPadnos> OK - I knew it looked familiar
[22:35:08] <robin_z> what are you lot talking about?
[22:35:17] <SWPadnos> openbox window manager
[22:35:24] <SWPadnos> and ATI linux drivers
[22:35:27] <robin_z> for XP?
[22:35:38] <SWPadnos> I think not!
[22:36:06] <robin_z> well im confused
[22:36:34] <robin_z> is this a front end for Samba or something?
[22:37:00] <anonimasu> heh
[22:37:02] <anonimasu> what?
[22:37:12] <SWPadnos> openbox is an X-windows window manager - like fvwm2 or WindowMaker or Enlightenment
[22:37:17] <anonimasu> yes
[22:37:24] <robin_z> never heard of them, what do they do?
[22:37:54] <SWPadnos> the software draws little things like the close button and resizing bars around windows in X
[22:37:58] <asdfqwega> They gnome your soul and make you feel K
[22:38:07] <anonimasu> lol
[22:38:09] <robin_z> oh hmmm
[22:38:17] <robin_z> I *think* i understand
[22:38:21] <anonimasu> robin_z: draw widgets around your windows..
[22:38:23] <anonimasu> ;)
[22:38:35] <robin_z> in X?
[22:38:38] <anonimasu> yeah..
[22:38:44] <anonimasu> try running X without a windowmanager..
[22:38:50] <SWPadnos> that's not too fun :)
[22:38:53] <anonimasu> it's quite boring.. :D
[22:38:54] <robin_z> do I have one already?
[22:39:00] <anonimasu> most likely..
[22:39:01] <robin_z> I guess I must do
[22:39:09] <anonimasu> if you dont have one you cant move your windows..
[22:39:14] <anonimasu> ;)
[22:39:15] <robin_z> how do you find out what it is?
[22:39:19] <SWPadnos> do you run KDE or Gnome on your linux machines
[22:39:20] <asdfqwega> I've heard of a setup like that - multiple X sessions, no WM, just a single app run in each session
[22:39:28] <robin_z> Gnome ...
[22:39:38] <anonimasu> that's a wm..
[22:39:41] <robin_z> dedrat 7.foo
[22:39:44] <robin_z> riht
[22:39:47] <robin_z> right
[22:40:10] <robin_z> so KDE is another windownmanger
[22:40:14] <anonimasu> yep
[22:40:18] <robin_z> right
[22:40:28] <SWPadnos> actually, Gnome and KDE are a bit more than just window managers
[22:40:40] <anonimasu> hm, yeah bloated windowmanagers ;)
[22:40:57] <robin_z> ive heard talk that Gnome lets you drag and drop stuff and do "things" ... but I just use Netscape and xterms mainle
[22:40:58] <robin_z> y
[22:41:10] <anonimasu> :)
[22:41:22] <SWPadnos> you can generally still select some text with the mouse and paste it into another app using a middle-click
[22:41:28] <robin_z> yeah
[22:41:32] <robin_z> thats works
[22:41:41] <robin_z> in some suprising ways
[22:41:44] <SWPadnos> That type of thing is program-dependent
[22:42:05] <robin_z> I even pasted some stuff out of xpdf the other day ...
[22:42:20] <SWPadnos> the titlebar that lets you reposition application windows is provided by the window manager
[22:42:38] <robin_z> ahh. k, got it.
[22:43:21] <SWPadnos> hmmm - looking for a 64-bit laptop (Athlon64 or Opteron)
[22:43:25] <anonimasu> goodnight everyone
[22:43:28] <robin_z> night
[22:43:28] <anonimasu> I'll be off to bed now
[22:43:29] <SWPadnos> night
[22:50:51] <robin_z> so ... I got one good applicant for my laser cutting job
[22:51:05] <SWPadnos> cool - and they actually want a job? ;)
[22:51:16] <robin_z> well they want an "opportunity"
[22:51:22] <robin_z> which is the best I can do
[22:51:27] <SWPadnos> heh - not quite the same thing
[22:51:39] <robin_z> I dont want an employee anyway
[22:51:56] <robin_z> I want someting close t a partner
[22:52:00] <SWPadnos> true enough - more of a "temporary managing partner"
[22:52:07] <robin_z> thats it
[22:52:43] <robin_z> this guy is perfect
[22:52:52] <robin_z> ex sheet metal foreman
[22:53:04] <robin_z> drawing office manager
[22:53:16] <SWPadnos> how is his sales / customer interface side?
[22:53:31] <robin_z> dunno .. find out when we meet eyeball to eyeball
[22:53:37] <SWPadnos> yep
[22:53:48] <robin_z> he needs two essetial things
[22:53:52] <robin_z> 1) ability
[22:53:55] <robin_z> 2) drive
[22:54:09] <SWPadnos> definitely helpful :)
[22:54:16] <robin_z> 1) is sorted I tink ...
[22:54:22] <robin_z> 2) .. well .. we'll see
[22:54:35] <robin_z> perhaps the talk of profit will wake him up :)
[22:55:21] <SWPadnos> at least it sounds like he's more of a mechanics guy who wants to try out the business side
[22:55:25] <robin_z> yeah
[22:55:43] <robin_z> sales ability is crucial
[22:55:43] <SWPadnos> may be better than a business type that can't talk tech
[22:55:53] <robin_z> dunno
[22:55:57] <robin_z> 50:50
[22:56:01] <robin_z> we'll see
[22:56:15] <robin_z> if it doesnt work out, he'll starve :)
[22:56:27] <SWPadnos> at my previous company, we hired a CEO, who came from a large company
[22:56:39] <robin_z> uh huh
[22:56:53] <SWPadnos> he almost couldn't understand things like making copies for himself and what goes into a radio remote control
[22:57:11] <SWPadnos> (the primary business was electronic design and radio remote controls...)
[22:57:35] <SWPadnos> it definitely took him a while to get accustomed to things - and I'm not sure he's completey used to it yet
[22:57:39] <SWPadnos> 5 years later
[22:58:12] <SWPadnos> (I left 4 years ago :) )
[23:02:00] <robin_z> heh
[23:02:06] <robin_z> not a good sign then
[23:02:15] <SWPadnos> not really
[23:02:53] <robin_z> but someone somewhere liked him
[23:02:57] <SWPadnos> He definitely improved some things (like vendor / customer interactions), but didn't help much with the management of the engineers
[23:03:05] <SWPadnos> well - I hired him ;)
[23:03:05] <robin_z> well
[23:03:09] <robin_z> heh
[23:03:17] <robin_z> you cant really manage engineers
[23:03:23] <SWPadnos> I was one of the founders of the company, and we wanted a manager to arbitrate between the three of us
[23:03:34] <robin_z> you can at best steer them in the right direction
[23:03:53] <SWPadnos> well - a company needs to be able to get things designed, ideally on time
[23:03:58] <robin_z> yep
[23:04:24] <SWPadnos> but when one (emphasis on "one") of the engineers always does what he wants, there's a problem
[23:04:32] <robin_z> but, comntrol your engineers too rigidly, and you dont get those neat products that make the difference between "ok" and "fantastic"
[23:04:39] <SWPadnos> (no, it wasn't me :) )
[23:04:56] <robin_z> what you need are:
[23:05:05] <robin_z> some "documenter" engineers
[23:05:13] <robin_z> some "finisher" engineers
[23:05:21] <SWPadnos> well - we had problems like a hardware guy that would promise things to customers (custom hardware and the like), but would never make any promises like when the next product design would be done
[23:05:28] <robin_z> and some "ideas" engineers
[23:05:42] <SWPadnos> so exernal promises = OK, but internal promise = never
[23:05:46] <robin_z> hmmm
[23:05:55] <SWPadnos> so I left :)
[23:05:57] <robin_z> heh
[23:06:15] <robin_z> Ive seen companies with many "ideas" engineers,
[23:06:25] <robin_z> great ideas, no actual products
[23:06:31] <robin_z> ive seen the opposite too.
[23:06:39] <robin_z> perfect products, on time everytime
[23:06:45] <robin_z> but old, dull and boring.
[23:06:46] <SWPadnos> when you have exactly one hardware, one software, and one manufacturing engineer, it's hard to justify having the idea people and the documenters
[23:07:03] <robin_z> well, thats when you have to double up
[23:07:12] <SWPadnos> it's a lot better when everyone works together to get the products done and documented
[23:07:24] <robin_z> its a nice dream
[23:07:31] <robin_z> wont happen though.
[23:07:39] <SWPadnos> (which is a lot harder when one (emphasize "one") engineer doesn't believe in documentation and refuses to do any)
[23:07:50] <robin_z> shrug
[23:08:00] <robin_z> theres always one who wont.
[23:08:08] <robin_z> probaly dresses weird too?
[23:08:12] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders if there is a general problem with EMC1/BDI and Compaq PW6000 servers...
[23:08:27] <robin_z> turns up late to every meeting
[23:08:30] <robin_z> ??
[23:08:30] <SWPadnos> well - when that's the one that the investors love, there isn't much for the rest to do but go away
[23:09:08] <robin_z> shrug
[23:09:29] <robin_z> you always need one, an ideas guy.
[23:09:40] <SWPadnos> we had more ideas than you can believe
[23:10:11] <SWPadnos> but no matter what was decided as to what to turn into a product, there was no knowing what the next device coming out of the hardware lab would be
[23:10:21] <robin_z> heh
[23:10:22] <Phydbleep> Has anyone else had the BDI (4.18/4.20) fail with an anaconda error during post-install?
[23:10:37] <robin_z> anaconda?
[23:10:41] <robin_z> no.
[23:10:57] <SWPadnos> I've had a couple of problems, but they were solved by burning a second CD at slower speed
[23:10:58] <robin_z> do the latest BDIs even use anaconda?
[23:11:02] <SWPadnos> yes
[23:11:02] <jmkasunich2> paul_c is the guy you want to talk to
[23:11:05] <jmkasunich2> yes, it does
[23:11:08] <robin_z> right
[23:11:20] <robin_z> SWPadnos: was I close with my description?
[23:11:52] <Phydbleep> I tried 4.20, no go.. I tried again with 4.18 same problem, I'm retrying with 4.20, Both cd's were burned @ 12x.
[23:12:04] <SWPadnos> nope - dressed normally :)
[23:12:22] <Phydbleep> Engineers are supposed to be dressed?
[23:12:28] <SWPadnos> are you running SMP or single CPU?
[23:12:37] <robin_z> Phydbleep: sure they are.
[23:12:37] <SWPadnos> only if they have video phones
[23:12:46] <SWPadnos> (or they sell shiny things on ebay)
[23:12:52] <Phydbleep> Compaq PW6000 SMP box with 1 CPU.
[23:13:08] <SWPadnos> where exactly does it fail?
[23:13:25] <robin_z> a true engineer considers himself to be dressed when he has enough clothes on to prevent genitalia getting trapped in the equipment, any more is unecessarry :)
[23:13:32] <Phydbleep> It fails ater tyhe bulk of the install, but before the grub install.
[23:13:51] <SWPadnos> yeah - especially if they work with power equipment :)
[23:13:51] <Phydbleep> robin_z: That was why I asked...
[23:14:11] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is sitting here in a pair of work pants and a smile..
[23:14:16] <jmkasunich2> appendages sticking together or freezing may also indicate a need for more/different clothing
[23:14:20] <SWPadnos> and it gives an error of some sort?
[23:14:37] <SWPadnos> reminds me of the guy who picked up a tank battery
[23:14:45] <SWPadnos> and it shorted on his large belt buckle
[23:14:48] <Phydbleep> SWPadnos: Yeah, It bombs w/ an anaconda error about a file existing..
[23:14:49] <SWPadnos> (ouch)
[23:14:56] <robin_z> SWPadnos: generally, the odeas guy is a classic I/A personality type .. they march to the beat of their own drum, they cannot be contained or controlled, trying to os generally futile and no one ends up happy.
[23:15:20] <SWPadnos> OK - that doesn't trigger any memories for me - you may want to join this chat again and ask paul_c what's going on
[23:15:30] <jmkasunich2> my boss might say you are describing me
[23:15:41] <robin_z> heh
[23:15:50] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep cusses "Blast it! I want a tachometer and an "E-Stop" for the lathe.."
[23:16:04] <robin_z> EMC, on a lathe?
[23:16:08] <SWPadnos> we all have the mad genius problem, it was just a question of whether or not we would bend to the will of the group
[23:16:19] <SWPadnos> two of us would, the other wouldn't
[23:16:20] <Phydbleep> EMC on a 1937 south-Bend. :)
[23:16:31] <jmkasunich2> nice
[23:16:37] <SWPadnos> e-stop = pull the plug
[23:16:46] <jmkasunich2> gonna put ballscrews on that lathe?
[23:17:01] <gezr> if you had a load meter, you would see the failure long before the failure
[23:17:03] <robin_z> SWPadnos: its often better simply to find them a room, provide them with coffee and pray soemthing kewl comes out once a year
[23:17:27] <Phydbleep> It's close to that right now.. I'm using a Precor treadmill motor and controller that has an e-stop via a magnetic key on the panel.
[23:17:32] <gezr> anyway, im back after a day of what seems like shopping, im off to make homemade pizza
[23:17:41] <robin_z> mmmm tasty
[23:17:58] <gezr> robin_z : I made 2 loafs of bread yesterday, they were great :)
[23:18:00] <SWPadnos> that's great if you have a dozen products, but when there's exactly one steram of cash, it's not the best business plan
[23:18:16] <SWPadnos> that was what we were working toward, for all of us
[23:18:18] <robin_z> SWPadnos: possibly not.
[23:18:27] <SWPadnos> one just happened to take it before the company was ready
[23:18:52] <robin_z> did the company survive?
[23:19:10] <SWPadnos> Yep - there's only one engineer now, and no promises about new products can be made
[23:19:20] <robin_z> hmm
[23:19:23] <SWPadnos> I got roughly $50k from my shares last year though
[23:19:29] <robin_z> oh, :)
[23:19:31] <robin_z> heh
[23:19:46] <SWPadnos> I wouldn't have left if I thought the company would fold - it was my baby after all
[23:19:54] <robin_z> right
[23:20:13] <Jymmm> This is not the month for me in respect to computers...
[23:20:23] <SWPadnos> just buy a $299 Dell ;)
[23:20:28] <robin_z> managing I/A personalities is very very difficult
[23:20:32] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos hides
[23:20:35] <Jymmm> SWPadnos those POS's
[23:20:40] <Phydbleep> jmkasunich: Ball screws if I can afford them.. Otherwise lots of moglice. :)
[23:20:48] <SWPadnos> I'm hidden - I can't hear you :)
[23:20:57] <jmkasunich2> robin: what is I/A?
[23:20:59] <SWPadnos> Point Of Sale terminals?
[23:21:08] <SWPadnos> Ignorant / Asshole
[23:21:28] <robin_z> Jymmm: explain to us again the $299 dell is a POS, but works, where as your home made, mor expensive, but non-working mess is great because????
[23:21:43] <Jymmm> robin_z mine works fine, my gf's computer
[23:22:09] <Imperator_> chiao
[23:22:45] <Jymmm> replaced her cpu fan yesterday, then found out the video fan is going bad too. Bought a warranty for that, so just replased it today as well.
[23:23:23] <robin_z> jmkasunich2: there are 4 basic personality traits, differetn people call them different things... but you can usually plot them on a simple XY graph ... strong I, with a bit of A is your classic mad genius
[23:23:49] <robin_z> people with equal ammoutns of each trait are very stable, but dull
[23:23:50] <jmkasunich2> what are the four traits?
[23:24:45] <robin_z> in the system I learnt it was I, A, B, M .. now, you are going to ask what they stand for
[23:24:53] <jmkasunich2> already did
[23:24:54] <robin_z> and Im going to try and remember :)
[23:25:11] <Jymmm> * Jymmm has the list somewhere... I Introvert,
[23:25:21] <robin_z> I remember i had an almost off-the-scale I, with some A
[23:26:19] <Jymmm> I = Introvert, N Intuition, F Feeling, P Perceiving
[23:26:45] <SWPadnos> that's the Meyers-Briggs chart - I/E, N/?, F/S, T/J
[23:26:52] <Jymmm> yeah
[23:26:53] <SWPadnos> T/P - right
[23:27:06] <SWPadnos> ISTJ / ENTP / etc.
[23:27:54] <Jymmm> http://skepdic.com/myersb.html
[23:27:54] <SWPadnos> all three of us engineers were IST, with the J/P varying
[23:29:08] <Jymmm> INFP
[23:29:49] <robin_z> I just reember doing this multi-guess questionaire ..
[23:29:54] <robin_z> getting some scores
[23:30:03] <SWPadnos> Right - I guess we were all INT...
[23:30:07] <robin_z> and then they give you a "des this sound like you" sheet
[23:30:15] <robin_z> about 4 pages of stuff
[23:30:22] <robin_z> and it was me to a T
[23:30:31] <robin_z> spot on it was .. and very scary.
[23:30:34] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep will have the error again in approx 30 minutes.
[23:30:48] <SWPadnos> yep - we did that - had a consultant come in and give all 10 employees the indicator
[23:31:00] <robin_z> it basically said "you'll never finish anyting you start" ;)
[23:31:25] <jmkasunich2> would be interesting to take that quiz
[23:31:26] <SWPadnos> we then plotted our results on a chart, and we were all ocer the map (sort of - we had 10 people, so we couldn't cover the whole chart :) )
[23:31:40] <robin_z> thats good
[23:32:45] <SWPadnos> hmmm - so I found an Athlon-64 laptop for only $2434.60
[23:33:05] <jmkasunich2> "only"?
[23:33:30] <SWPadnos> well - 17" display, 2G RAM, 80G drive, DVD +/- RW, etc.
[23:33:47] <SWPadnos> and NO WINDOWS XP muahahahah
[23:34:01] <SWPadnos> or Win2k either
[23:34:25] <Phydbleep> Is this bad? "Losing too many ticks, TSC cannot be used as a timesource." ???
[23:34:34] <SWPadnos> yes
[23:35:14] <SWPadnos> I think the version of RTAI on the BDI-4 discs needs to use the TSC for timing
[23:35:24] <SWPadnos> I know you need TSC-enabled kernels
[23:37:46] <robin_z> jmkasunich2: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
[23:38:42] <asdfqwega> Usually I like to screw around with psych tests...but I did take one honestly
[23:39:09] <asdfqwega> Introverted Intuitive Thinker - aka The Scholar
[23:40:34] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders if he should just scrap this POS and build a generic P-II system for EMC.
[23:41:18] <Phydbleep> Hey! Will EMC/EMC2 install on fedora Core 3?
[23:42:37] <SWPadnos> you shold be able to compile it, once you get the required kernel patches / packages
[23:42:54] <Phydbleep> apt-get is a wonderful thing. :)
[23:42:56] <jmkasunich2> strong I (78), mild N (12), strong T (88) mild J (11)
[23:43:04] <SWPadnos> The Portrait of the Mastermind Rational (iNTj)
[23:43:49] <SWPadnos> funny - I'm I:56, N:88, T:62, J:33
[23:44:46] <SWPadnos> http://typelogic.com/intj.html
[23:45:39] <SWPadnos> how is apt-get on FC3?
[23:47:25] <asdfqwega> INTJ - 56 88 88 17
[23:48:08] <SWPadnos> pretty much the same as me
[23:48:35] <les> I took that famous online test...what's it called?
[23:48:42] <SWPadnos> Meyers-Briggs
[23:48:47] <les> but I think it was not valid
[23:48:50] <robin_z> les: purity test
[23:49:12] <les> it had lots of math stuff with math nomenclature
[23:49:23] <SWPadnos> the Putnam exam?
[23:49:38] <robin_z> cattell?
[23:49:44] <les> but knowing math nomenclature is like knowing swahili
[23:50:01] <SWPadnos> I didn't even understand the questions on the Putnam exam :)
[23:50:09] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep must be a sick puppy.. INTJ 67 38 12 1
[23:50:17] <les> I made a very high score...but I discount it because I had a lot of math training
[23:50:26] <SWPadnos> (like - I had no idea what they were asking for, let alone how to solve the equations)
[23:50:59] <les> I got all math questions right
[23:51:10] <les> and most all spetial problems
[23:51:26] <les> must have been less than perfect on the other stuff
[23:51:33] <les> spatial
[23:51:34] <SWPadnos> If I can find them, I'll bring some of the Putnam questions - let's see how many you can understand :)
[23:51:46] <asdfqwega> Ever take an IQ test?
[23:51:56] <les> glad I asn't tersted on typing
[23:52:01] <les> haha
[23:52:16] <SWPadnos> (of the 8 people who took the test from my University, zero questions were correctly answered, and two of the testees were professors)
[23:52:21] <les> this was an iq test
[23:52:33] <asdfqwega> Ooo, let me try
[23:52:56] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega puts fresh batteries in his brain
[23:52:57] <les> it's online and very popular...takes about an hour
[23:53:08] <les> let me find it
[23:53:12] <SWPadnos> Mensa has some fun ones
[23:54:10] <les> tickle it is called
[23:55:01] <les> they have gratuitous labels when you finish
[23:55:21] <les> called me a "visionary philosopher"
[23:55:37] <les> I think I had drunk several beers while taking it
[23:55:46] <les> so...heh
[23:56:48] <robin_z> I did the mensa thing once ... test at home then pay money to do a test at a centre
[23:57:11] <les> I don't think the high score means anything.
[23:57:15] <robin_z> I didnt actually join though
[23:57:26] <SWPadnos> I didn't feel like paying the fee to join, but I saved my online test so I could later if I ever decide it's worth it
[23:57:29] <robin_z> it was more "ooh look I passed" ...
[23:57:36] <les> that is why you are offered the big bicks robin.
[23:57:44] <les> bucks
[23:57:47] <robin_z> heh :)
[23:58:06] <robin_z> I knew it would come in handy :)
[23:58:31] <les> I know this ...because tickle says I am a "visionary philosopher"
[23:58:34] <les> haw
[23:58:39] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders why there is a "preparing to mount cd 1 in the target" between every package name on vc-3