#emc | Logs for 2005-04-09

[00:00:08] <les> cool
[00:00:21] <dmess> awesome sounds..
[00:00:22] <pfred1> ack! Segmentation fault
[00:00:46] <les> I have to transfer some of our old mastere to cd
[00:00:48] <les> but
[00:01:01] <pfred1> hmm i gotta rebuild mplayer this copy is messed up
[00:01:06] <les> my tape head have had their last lap
[00:01:16] <les> must get new ones
[00:01:26] <les> and then digitaslly remaster
[00:01:32] <les> bluh
[00:01:37] <les> digitally
[00:01:55] <dmess> anyone remember a band named Chevy Dirt???
[00:01:59] <les> in the old days tape heads had to be lapped often
[00:02:07] <les> no...
[00:02:09] <pfred1> dmess I missed out on those
[00:02:33] <dmess> o forget them... herbs and all
[00:02:36] <pfred1> hey tonyp make a user account to IRC from
[00:02:51] <dmess> or shall we say root..
[00:03:20] <tonyp> look, I haven't a clue how to do that
[00:03:24] <les> I had better check on my big slab of corned beef
[00:03:30] <les> cooking 5 hrs
[00:03:31] <les> heh
[00:03:48] <les> bbl
[00:03:50] <dmess> tendernes... rememberthat one..
[00:03:52] <pfred1> dmess how about the New Riders of the Purple Sage?
[00:04:09] <tonyp> les, is this you from the furniture store
[00:04:27] <pfred1> les does make furniture
[00:04:34] <dmess> yup dat him
[00:04:34] <pfred1> and turkey calls too!
[00:04:46] <tonyp> I wanted to ask about the ini file he has posted
[00:05:08] <dmess> oh it wont work... ; 9
[00:05:36] <dmess> just kidding... he's check on viddles
[00:05:42] <dmess> brb
[00:06:19] <tonyp> Also I was wondering where I can get a copy of EMC2. The link at sherline doesn't work and the CVS needs a password
[00:06:23] <les> just about ready
[00:06:36] <les> tony a question about the .ini?
[00:07:18] <tonyp> Yes, I am running a router with steppers and need fast feed rates and I see your machine works pretty good.
[00:07:35] <tonyp> will this work as a good starting point for me
[00:07:38] <pfred1> tonyp you think?
[00:07:39] <les> it's a living.
[00:07:52] <les> the .ini?
[00:07:55] <les> yes
[00:08:09] <les> but I have zeroed out the pid stuff
[00:08:19] <les> you need to tune that yourself
[00:08:23] <tonyp> Thats ok
[00:08:49] <tonyp> I just need a place to start from that is better than the default
[00:08:57] <les> with steppers it is not so much an issue since the pid stuff is virtual
[00:09:06] <paul_c> tonyp: Use "cvs -d:pserver:anonymous" for CVS without a passwd
[00:09:21] <tonyp> I dont know much about this stuff
[00:09:44] <les> tony, all the stuff on our gallery page is made by emc
[00:09:57] <paul_c> http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=6744 - See the section on anonymous checkouts
[00:10:17] <pfred1> ack not a cvs checkout!
[00:10:18] <les> I think for stepper you should refer to inuxcnc.org
[00:10:39] <les> I use full servo
[00:11:01] <les> but
[00:11:22] <les> we have made and sold tousands and thousands of parts with emc
[00:11:42] <les> but we still mistype.
[00:12:01] <dmess> sytex..syntax... syntax
[00:12:09] <les> haha
[00:12:59] <les> to be fair...some is due to my friends new keyboard product I am beata testing
[00:13:01] <dmess> practice makes for tired gray stuff
[00:13:10] <les> it's not doing so well
[00:13:32] <dmess> really...what is it
[00:13:49] <dmess> beta
[00:13:58] <les> keys are talc filled abs...
[00:14:07] <les> they are sticking badly
[00:14:18] <les> fail after about 100 hrs
[00:14:18] <dmess> abs..
[00:14:37] <dmess> moisture...
[00:15:01] <les> acrylonitrile butadiene styrene
[00:15:05] <dmess> talk looks for moisture...
[00:15:33] <les> the problem is too much gap in the bearings
[00:16:37] <dmess> so resize... bearings and balls are a biatch to engineer with.. especially compressible materials
[00:16:49] <les> it is worsened by the fact that I cannot type...but many keys stick and that does not help
[00:17:11] <tonyp> Thanks guys. gotta go.
[00:17:14] <dmess> so its a talk filled keyboard??
[00:17:22] <les> this is an abs on abs minimal linear bearing for the keys
[00:17:44] <les> with too much gap a locking taper is formed
[00:17:49] <dmess> linear bearing how??
[00:18:01] <les> in short...it is just too cheaply made.
[00:18:18] <dmess> CHINA... on the back??
[00:18:35] <les> thr bearing of the keys going up and down
[00:18:41] <anonimasu> hm what are the pros with a keyb like that?
[00:18:51] <anonimasu> why talc filled keys?
[00:18:55] <anonimasu> *curious*
[00:18:58] <dmess> that cHina company makes everything nowdays
[00:19:01] <les> it is a chinese $1 keyboard
[00:19:12] <les> let me get a link
[00:19:52] <dmess> $1 chines.. thats $1 million canadian
[00:21:18] <les> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1761887,00.asp
[00:21:47] <les> you see my friend invented this product
[00:21:56] <les> I am testing it
[00:22:14] <les> we have to change some things.
[00:22:28] <les> I have a crate of them to test
[00:22:44] <pfred1> les you get all the luck don't you?
[00:23:45] <les> we go back a long way..we did the video game version of trivial pursuit
[00:24:00] <les> he did software ...I did hardware
[00:24:49] <les> the folding under keyboard storage is novel...
[00:25:05] <les> but the keyboard need to be better
[00:25:15] <pfred1> yeah i got a huge desk here but with a PC on it i can barely put a pencil on it now!
[00:25:30] <les> it is no worse than any other chinese $1 keyboard
[00:25:33] <les> but still
[00:25:43] <les> it need s to be better
[00:25:58] <pfred1> everything can stand a little improvement
[00:26:35] <les> talc filed abs on talc filled abs is a crappy bearing
[00:27:08] <les> looking at putting a bit of lubrication in the resin
[00:27:22] <les> we call it "snake snot"
[00:27:24] <pfred1> 26335054 Apr 8 20:02 Danelectro.avi 10581422 Apr 8 20:37 Danelectro1.avi
[00:27:37] <pfred1> it's amazing what a different codec can do for you
[00:28:14] <pfred1> les hey did you get that file?
[00:28:18] <les> hmm bad link let me try again
[00:28:21] <dmess> some GM map sensors have SNOT in em... nothing else to mae em work...
[00:29:08] <dmess> i know ive busted em open to find out what was wrong with them...and once the snots out their facked
[00:30:07] <les> hmm cannot get the danelectro stuff to go...rats
[00:30:34] <les> well this keyboard is just a case of poor engineering
[00:30:38] <paul_c> Dmess: The next BDI-4 will have the option of lilo in the install - That's all your fault !
[00:30:53] <les> we will have to teach them how to do it right
[00:31:21] <les> otherwise people love the undrneath storage
[00:31:26] <les> very handy
[00:31:47] <pfred1> les got a linux box online?
[00:31:59] <les> naw its off now
[00:32:03] <les> just doze
[00:32:09] <pfred1> aww linux has a nice tool called wget
[00:32:16] <pfred1> wget actually works
[00:32:55] <les> well when paul gets her I want to ask him to get a linux box to work with my router
[00:32:59] <paul_c> wget -crk http://*
[00:33:03] <les> I will even buy the box
[00:33:33] <les> right now only the shop is linux
[00:33:37] <pfred1> Windows designed for the Internet, the Internet designed for UNIX
[00:33:42] <les> and no samba to the office
[00:33:44] <les> yet
[00:34:22] <pfred1> well I'm deleting the one copied file just going to host the transcoded one it's less than half the size
[00:34:32] <les> ok
[00:34:35] <pfred1> dmess wb
[00:34:43] <les> I must check the food a bit
[00:34:48] <les> biaw
[00:35:04] <dmess> tht didnt go so well
[00:46:20] <anonimasu> night everyone
[00:46:27] <pfred1> nite
[00:46:39] <Dmess2> gnite ; )
[00:48:07] <les> gnite
[00:48:11] <pfred1> nite
[00:48:47] <les> I was talking too long here...if the coned beef cooked any more it would be liquid
[00:48:50] <les> corned
[00:48:57] <pfred1> yeah go eat
[00:49:03] <les> but love to talk about music
[00:49:12] <pfred1> I rather listen to it myself
[00:49:23] <les> heh
[00:49:24] <pfred1> or try to make it even
[00:49:31] <les> yeah
[00:49:50] <les> I will go eat
[00:49:56] <les> later
[00:50:19] <les> enjoyed taking about and listening to music.
[00:50:34] <pfred1> we gotta work on you downloading some
[00:51:02] <les> yeah got overloaded that's all
[00:51:17] <les> had multiple downloads going
[00:51:27] <pfred1> ah
[00:51:30] <les> heard some
[00:51:49] <les> but not all
[00:51:58] <les> it's on the HD though
[00:52:04] <les> I'll sort it out
[00:52:10] <les> want to hear it
[00:52:23] <pfred1> and see it
[00:52:27] <les> yeah
[00:52:36] <les> I have the file
[00:52:45] <pfred1> which?
[00:53:01] <pfred1> I made 2
[00:53:16] <les> I got three think
[00:53:24] <les> saw one
[00:53:27] <pfred1> one uses a more obscure but superior codec for the video encoding
[00:53:39] <dmess> i'll try and rip some clips from Crossroads..
[00:53:47] <les> superior codecs are good
[00:53:51] <pfred1> woo yeah use mencoder
[00:54:16] <pfred1> my DVD rips are par excellence
[00:54:27] <pfred1> tho that clip was someone else's rip I re encoded
[00:54:31] <dmess> i'll need lessons first
[00:54:36] <les> makes me think of all that 2" TAPE FOR AUDIO IN THE OLD DAYS
[00:54:48] <les> OOPS KEY STUCK
[00:54:52] <pfred1> yeah one you get the command set down it's easy
[00:55:30] <les> we used to do 8 tracks on 2 " tape at 15 or 30 ips
[00:55:38] <pfred1> for me ripping is like a hobby
[00:55:44] <les> it was very expensive
[00:55:52] <pfred1> getting it as small and as high quality as possible
[00:56:01] <les> yeah
[00:56:05] <pfred1> well ripping DVDs costs 0
[00:56:10] <les> yup
[00:56:13] <pfred1> but it's pretty technical
[00:56:17] <les> my son likes to do that
[00:56:42] <pfred1> I can do a DVD in anywhere's from 550MB to maybe 750MB depending on the motion in it
[00:56:54] <pfred1> and it's well to me it's as nice looking as the DVD
[00:57:48] <les> and a reel of tape for studio use long ago cost several hundred dollars in today's money
[00:57:55] <les> and that is just sound
[00:58:00] <pfred1> yeah HDDs dirt cheap huh?
[00:58:04] <les> yup
[00:58:49] <les> my whole cd collection can fit on one
[00:59:00] <pfred1> ha ha
[00:59:03] <les> we spent so much more way back
[00:59:11] <pfred1> once i think i put like 700 MP3s onto one CD
[00:59:18] <les> but people liked music much more then
[00:59:32] <pfred1> no we got robbed back then
[01:00:03] <les> well the technology was just $$$
[01:00:07] <dmess> and the musicians got beat..
[01:00:13] <les> it sounded good
[01:00:13] <pfred1> yup
[01:00:26] <les> but the consumer never heard it
[01:00:39] <les> I know...
[01:00:45] <dmess> oh no contracts avoided that
[01:00:48] <les> I designed some of the stuff.
[01:00:50] <pfred1> leslie box
[01:00:58] <pfred1> * pfred1 puts les onto a lazy susan ...
[01:01:03] <les> haha
[01:01:12] <les> now just software
[01:01:26] <pfred1> I got a small stone electroharmonix
[01:01:26] <les> back then motors and stuff
[01:01:34] <les> oh
[01:01:38] <pfred1> showing my age with that item
[01:01:40] <les> hendrix.
[01:01:49] <jmkasunich> evening guys
[01:01:52] <pfred1> you know what that thing is worth today?
[01:01:59] <pfred1> I almost passed out!
[01:02:05] <les> $$$ bye john
[01:03:07] <jmkasunich> ?
[01:03:07] <les> I mean hi
[01:03:07] <les> heh
[01:03:07] <jmkasunich> I thought that was !bye
[01:03:15] <pfred1> les what can you say about impedance matching that'd make sense to someone?
[01:03:18] <les> I was away...cooking big slabs of corned beef and just in from the kitchen
[01:03:34] <les> pfred with audio?
[01:04:03] <pfred1> les yeah this one kid is trying to record from like amps or a VCR but keeps wanting to use the mic input on his soundcard
[01:04:13] <pfred1> so I told him it's the wrong impedance to work really right
[01:04:21] <pfred1> he has to use line in but he doesn't get it
[01:04:21] <jmkasunich> wrong level too
[01:04:27] <les> most mic inputs on sound cards are crap
[01:04:32] <les> use line in
[01:04:36] <pfred1> even if yo ugot the level right i think the impedance would still kill you
[01:04:44] <les> It will be fairly high z
[01:05:07] <pfred1> les you ever see the alsa sound driver in linux?
[01:05:12] <pfred1> man I htink you'd dig it!
[01:05:13] <les> most folower outputs are a few ohms at most
[01:05:23] <les> voltage source
[01:05:45] <pfred1> alsa has like mic boost in their mixer it's cool
[01:05:51] <les> line in is a unity gain buffer
[01:05:59] <les> 100k+
[01:06:11] <les> often i meg+
[01:06:31] <paul_c> Evening John.
[01:06:34] <pfred1> yeah the mic input expects completely different impedance doesn't it?
[01:06:36] <dmess> l8r
[01:06:37] <jmkasunich> hi paul
[01:06:48] <pfred1> it expects wel la microphone
[01:07:06] <jmkasunich> got to put together my new PC and see if 4.20 likes it
[01:07:16] <les> mic is millivolts at 200 or 10k ohms
[01:07:23] <les> line is 1v
[01:07:39] <les> and likes a few ohms from source
[01:08:04] <pfred1> I've run into the whole mic in line in debacle myself
[01:08:49] <les> A voltage follower op amp buffer has essentially zero impedance
[01:09:04] <jmkasunich> output impedance that is
[01:09:04] <les> but needs to see min 600 ohms load
[01:09:09] <pfred1> les well he's switching so it must have worked
[01:09:37] <les> right output john
[01:11:10] <jmkasunich> general PC question... it there any reason to have both a CD burner _and_ a CD reader? I have the drives, but was wondering if I should save a bay and just install the writer?
[01:11:14] <les> input is very high
[01:11:25] <pfred1> jmkasunich direct disc copying?
[01:11:32] <les> it's "not worry about it " high
[01:11:39] <gezr> just keep em on seperate channels
[01:11:43] <pfred1> I like to have CD burner and DVD player
[01:11:53] <jmkasunich> don't have any DVD drives
[01:12:06] <pfred1> comp DVD players play CDs too
[01:12:06] <les> bipolar has best noise figure with about 5 k in
[01:12:12] <les> fet a bit higher
[01:12:18] <jmkasunich> gezr: hard disk will be on the primary IDE, I didn't think it was a good idea to mix CD drives and hard disks?
[01:12:18] <pfred1> yeah i like bipolar
[01:12:51] <les> a bit lower noise
[01:13:04] <jmkasunich> lower offset too (usually)
[01:13:11] <les> it's the johnson/shot noise load line
[01:13:17] <les> yeah
[01:13:29] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich wishes he had to worry about things like shot noise
[01:13:34] <pfred1> <Justin> MUCH BETTER!!!!!!!!
[01:13:41] <pfred1> <pfred1> Justin line in?
[01:13:45] <les> offset not an issue much with audio
[01:13:45] <pfred1> <Justin> yeah!
[01:13:53] <gezr> jmkasunich : its not a good idea, to get disk to disk copy performance so under/overruns are minimized its best to add a card with an aditional channel
[01:14:12] <les> big issue if you are making integrators and stuff
[01:14:18] <pfred1> gezr underruns simply don't happen today buffers are huge
[01:14:25] <jmkasunich> les: right - I use opamps for things like output current and bus voltage feedback on drives
[01:14:35] <paul_c> pfred1: wanna bet ?
[01:14:48] <pfred1> I got like the world's cheapest CD burner and it rocks
[01:15:06] <les> yeah jmk
[01:15:13] <jmkasunich> disk-to-disk is low on my priority list, but I don't want a CD drive slowing down the hard disk
[01:15:27] <les> for audio I use the Burr brown OPA series
[01:15:29] <pfred1> yeah don't put CD drives onto the same controller as the HDDs
[01:15:47] <pfred1> slowest horse rule
[01:15:51] <gezr> I just said on different controlers, not ontop of a drive
[01:15:53] <les> they have feedforward distortion stuff
[01:16:00] <jmkasunich> so the decision is simply, CD-RW drive only, or CD-RW and CD-R (both on secondary IDE)
[01:16:14] <les> Myt analyzer can measure ZERO at unity gain
[01:16:43] <paul_c> jmkasunich: For general use, two CD drives is not essential
[01:16:57] <jmkasunich> the case has 3 exposed 5-1/4" bays, one with a 3.5" floppy in a reducing bezel
[01:17:17] <jmkasunich> I'm thinking I might want to add one of those multi-format memory card reader things that fits in a bay
[01:18:07] <jmkasunich> I guess I can put both drives in now, remove the CD-R later when I add the card thing
[01:18:33] <pfred1> I've had drives sitting on top of PCs
[01:18:46] <pfred1> who says internals won't work externally?
[01:18:57] <jmkasunich> same here - that's how I load SW onto the compile farm
[01:19:14] <pfred1> yeah it's a nice high tech look I think
[01:19:25] <pfred1> the ribbon snaking out of the front of the PC or something
[01:19:32] <jmkasunich> yeah ;-)
[01:19:42] <jmkasunich> damn.... I gotta get a new fan
[01:20:03] <pfred1> I know a guy has like 8 drives in one box
[01:20:20] <pfred1> and it was like a dual AMD box with some high end video card
[01:20:27] <jmkasunich> (I moved my former main Linux PC into an older case, freeing up the nice case for the new mobo - the old case has a dying sleeve bearing fan that is gonna make me crazy soon)
[01:20:36] <jmkasunich> I bet he needed a big PS and lots of fans
[01:20:37] <pfred1> and he had stability problems turns out he had this cheesy power supply
[01:20:47] <pfred1> yeah buying a real power supply helped him out a lot
[01:21:26] <pfred1> I just got a cheap assed new CPU fan I love it!
[01:23:04] <jmkasunich> I'm sure I have a fan around here that will fit, just gotta dig it out and do the swap
[01:23:23] <pfred1> yeah i got one PC with a fan wired to the outside
[01:23:35] <pfred1> SCSI drives can get hot
[01:23:35] <jmkasunich> either that, or just get the new system built up so I don't have to use the old one ;-(
[01:23:38] <jmkasunich> oops
[01:23:40] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[01:23:49] <jmkasunich> smiley typos
[01:23:58] <pfred1> that's a winky
[01:24:12] <les> fans seem to last about one year these days...what happened?
[01:24:34] <jmkasunich> cheapness happened
[01:24:39] <les> heh
[01:24:41] <pfred1> this new fan i got seems really cool
[01:25:07] <jmkasunich> they were selling a 400W PS with two glowey LED fans for $20
[01:25:29] <jmkasunich> that doesn't buy much quality
[01:26:17] <jmkasunich> (I bought the $40 one with one non-glowey fan and boring zinc-plate... probably more of the money went into the supply, less into fluff)
[01:26:27] <les> I think ball bearings went away in them
[01:26:33] <les> too bad
[01:26:43] <jmkasunich> the $40 PS has a BB fan
[01:27:01] <les> I use chinese ball bearing in the itw encoder
[01:27:12] <les> designed for computer fans
[01:27:19] <les> agec1
[01:27:34] <les> $.25
[01:27:50] <les> abec not agec ha
[01:28:02] <jmkasunich> amazing what cheap labor and massive volumne can do
[01:28:58] <les> making an R2 ball bearing for .25 is a mystery to me
[01:29:13] <pfred1> les ha so!
[01:30:07] <les> funny quan 100,000 fits in a shoebox
[01:30:24] <les> about
[01:30:29] <les> they are tiny
[01:30:30] <jmkasunich> expensive shoes
[01:30:34] <dmess> qc on balls... sphericicty chk... how to??
[01:30:52] <pfred1> dmess you figure out how to plan an xvid?
[01:30:55] <pfred1> play even
[01:31:01] <les> they are lapped on parallel plates
[01:31:14] <dmess> but how are the CHECKED???
[01:31:21] <les> an older method was to just tumble the
[01:31:30] <dmess> i was in the INA bearing factory..
[01:31:37] <les> dodecahedral contact
[01:31:51] <les> they all end up the same size
[01:32:25] <jmkasunich> pfred1: they probably don't check em... if the process is right, you don't need to
[01:32:28] <dmess> they bounce them from a certain height rolled down a plane and it has to hit a hole in a plate to pass
[01:32:48] <dmess> the hole is only .2mm biger than the ball
[01:32:55] <paul_c> gonna hace to leave you guys to it.
[01:32:58] <les> but that is slow so I think the parallel plae lapping is used now always
[01:33:00] <jmkasunich> well, check some from each lot anyway, to make sure the process is stable
[01:33:01] <paul_c> goodnight
[01:33:02] <jmkasunich> night paul
[01:33:12] <les> night paul
[01:33:27] <dmess> CPK of 1.33 or better to go
[01:33:49] <dmess> g'nite Paul and thx for the Lilo
[01:33:56] <les> why 1.33?
[01:34:22] <dmess> denonte the beginning of a STABLE process
[01:34:31] <pfred1> here's the CPU fan I just got http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=35-166-027&depa=0
[01:34:49] <dmess> you should just get the odd flyer in the lot past that
[01:35:00] <les> hope it lasts longer than mine
[01:35:22] <pfred1> I hope it lasts as long as the fan i replaced with it
[01:35:33] <dmess> i broke the clamp on wifeys p4 cpu fan.... bad mess
[01:35:39] <les> yeah the car stuff we do is as much as 6 sigma
[01:35:59] <pfred1> dmess one word superglue!
[01:36:12] <dmess> hasnt tried yet...
[01:36:18] <les> which is silly stuff...no human endeavor canbe 6 sigma
[01:36:20] <jmkasunich> my CPU came with a fan (AMD CPU)... are the ones the chip makers include with their boxed CPUs usually pretty good?
[01:37:06] <dmess> i did auto stuff too.. Cadillac oil pumps... synchro- sleeves...for hydramatic...
[01:37:11] <les> I have replaced a couple in two years on this box
[01:37:15] <jmkasunich> les: but somehow they still wind up with the certificates on the wall... which tells you something about what the folks involved
[01:37:16] <SWP_Away> they're warranted for 3 years - you can call AMD if it fails
[01:37:20] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[01:37:42] <les> they ought to at least last until the cpu is to slow
[01:37:54] <jmkasunich> right - and since AMD doesn't want those calls, I'm hoping that means they used a good fan
[01:38:07] <SWPadnos> I've had two replaced by AMD
[01:38:10] <pfred1> les CPUs don't get any slower with time
[01:38:15] <les> 6 sigma is a game...we just play it and get the numbers
[01:38:19] <dmess> we ran at a 6 sigma CPK 2.3+ for 3 yrs when i turned on the pump division
[01:38:20] <les> it works
[01:38:24] <jmkasunich> les: you forget who you're talking to... I use things _way_ past the point when they're too slow
[01:38:43] <les> nothing is inspected if we make capability ratio
[01:38:46] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: that's not encouraging
[01:38:50] <SWPadnos> I can bring my old HP calculator to Fest, if you think it's faster than your computers :)
[01:39:19] <dmess> correct... you shouldnt be able to make a bad part
[01:39:22] <jmkasunich> I could bring my Kaypro II
[01:39:31] <SWPadnos> the calculators are lighter
[01:39:45] <SWPadnos> (and probably better at symbolic math)
[01:39:55] <jmkasunich> yep
[01:40:03] <les> jmk: you are talking to someone who makes a living running a cnc with a pentium 200 haha
[01:40:08] <dmess> thats all CPK is.. a sybol
[01:40:08] <jmkasunich> I used to have a not-so-light calculator
[01:40:32] <SWPadnos> one of the old four function desktop calculators?
[01:40:50] <jmkasunich> http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden130.html
[01:41:08] <SWPadnos> dude - that is a big calculator :)
[01:41:11] <les> oh i remember those
[01:41:13] <dmess> my granny had a mechanical cash register in the store
[01:41:19] <dmess> 150#
[01:41:25] <les> just kidding...i was too young?
[01:41:39] <les> I can say this
[01:41:41] <jmkasunich> early 60's
[01:41:49] <SWPadnos> hmmm - only a 4-level stack for an RPN calculator...
[01:42:03] <les> I learned fortran on an ibm system 360.
[01:42:06] <SWPadnos> my HP (28c and 28s) have 32k
[01:42:11] <SWPadnos> same as my mother
[01:42:12] <les> I guess I am old.
[01:42:18] <pfred1> I had this thing that came with a stylus and to clear it you pulled up this wire bar
[01:42:23] <SWPadnos> or was it the Xerox Sigma 6?
[01:42:28] <dmess> i learned everthing om an ibm360
[01:42:41] <dmess> cept how to type..
[01:42:45] <les> heh
[01:42:59] <SWPadnos> well - you had to flip levers on those, right? :)
[01:43:11] <les> punch cards.
[01:43:20] <SWPadnos> (Altair 8800 r00lz)
[01:43:22] <dmess> i had one with 2 knobs...
[01:43:28] <pfred1> I still got a stack of punch cards
[01:43:34] <les> me too
[01:43:34] <dmess> and to clear it you shook it
[01:43:41] <pfred1> from my college computer course
[01:44:08] <jmkasunich> dmess - did you see the guy who uses EMC to run one of those?
[01:44:25] <dmess> ya... my daughter fell in love..
[01:44:54] <dmess> i figure it'll be my first intgration.. cheap and simple
[01:45:07] <dmess> then she can have it
[01:46:12] <dmess> i've got 1" paper tape with code in it ..
[01:48:28] <les> some seem old here...
[01:48:52] <les> did any of you have a digicomp when you were a kid?
[01:49:06] <les> mechanical binary computer
[01:49:08] <jmkasunich> I got that calculator well after it was obsolete... it's about as old as I am
[01:49:20] <jmkasunich> had a TRS-80 in high school tho
[01:49:22] <les> programed with soda straws?
[01:49:31] <dmess> TRASH 80
[01:49:45] <dmess> i was a commadore guy
[01:49:46] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:49:53] <les> I must google digi comp
[01:49:55] <dmess> super pet
[01:50:02] <les> If I still had mine...
[01:50:06] <dmess> 32 K
[01:50:26] <dmess> 5 1/4 ds/hd floppy
[01:50:35] <jmkasunich> nice - the T80 was 4K, we (my brother and I) eventually upgraded to 16K
[01:50:46] <jmkasunich> and stored programs on cassette - yuck
[01:50:58] <dmess> then came the c64 and c128
[01:51:03] <les> bet it's worth $$
[01:51:16] <SWPadnos> woohoo - 300 baud cassette
[01:51:16] <les> http://www.csparks.com/gallery/Digi-comp
[01:51:20] <les> ha
[01:51:24] <dmess> some pets had a built in cassette deck
[01:51:24] <les> had one
[01:51:34] <jmkasunich> less: the EC-130 fetched about $450 on ebay
[01:51:44] <les> I ran lsaer tables with commodore 64
[01:51:51] <les> laser
[01:51:55] <SWPadnos> funny - you can get an Athlon 2 GHz for that at Wal-Mart
[01:52:07] <dmess> really les
[01:52:12] <les> yes
[01:52:23] <pfred1> I'm waiting for Walmart to put apartments right into the store so I never have to leave :)
[01:52:31] <les> haha
[01:52:41] <dmess> we peeked and pooked a plc outta one..
[01:52:50] <les> I figured digi comp would be a collector item
[01:52:52] <SWPadnos> yeah - that would be great :/
[01:53:04] <les> I think mine ended up in the trash
[01:53:06] <les> too bad
[01:53:11] <pfred1> I wanna live that TOTAL Walmart lifestyle!
[01:53:29] <dmess> you might be a redneck if...
[01:53:37] <pfred1> oh yeah
[01:54:47] <pfred1> I love Sam's Choice brand foods
[01:55:07] <dmess> i like tater tots...
[01:55:18] <pfred1> I bet they make tater tots
[01:55:47] <jmkasunich> I dunno, you think that have tater tots in China?
[01:55:54] <les> wallmart is big enough to be a government
[01:55:56] <pfred1> their 39% chocolate chip cookies rule!
[01:56:26] <dmess> rice tots
[01:56:36] <dmess> they're different
[01:57:15] <les> I must admit I am sourcing chinese stuff A LOT
[01:57:38] <dmess> too much lately... for all of us
[01:57:39] <pfred1> les you and 6 billion other people on the planet
[01:57:39] <les> how are we ultimately gonna pay for all thet stuff>
[01:57:43] <jmkasunich> it's hard not to, when it's so fscking cheap
[01:57:56] <les> yeah
[01:58:16] <pfred1> I got a video laying around someplace of them recycling etrash
[01:58:19] <pfred1> it's nuts!
[01:58:27] <dmess> hey 6 billion of them cant al be wrong...
[01:58:35] <les> I may even have to go to shanghai soon
[01:58:39] <pfred1> dmess wanna bet?
[01:58:44] <les> I do not want to
[01:58:49] <les> I will get sick
[01:59:00] <pfred1> les getting shanghaied are you?
[01:59:01] <dmess> they will
[01:59:37] <pfred1> isn't he cute?
[01:59:40] <les> I was looking at flights... 25 hrs including layovers
[01:59:42] <dmess> we've sold out already
[01:59:47] <les> that will kill me
[02:00:20] <jmkasunich> what _is_ that thing?
[02:00:28] <pfred1> jmkasunich heh
[02:00:32] <pfred1> that's my dog
[02:00:49] <dmess> bishon??
[02:00:52] <jmkasunich> I got a cat (maybe 2) that's bigger than that
[02:00:58] <pfred1> Maltesse
[02:01:13] <pfred1> yes there are cats bigger than he is
[02:01:14] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich doesn't like small, undignified dogs
[02:01:22] <pfred1> oh he's a prince
[02:01:44] <dmess> finigen.... my aunts maltese was fin
[02:01:46] <pfred1> he snorts at you when you're not doing what he wants you to be doing he gets very indignant
[02:01:47] <jmkasunich> looks like a chubby teddy bear tho
[02:02:02] <pfred1> yeah he's pretty fat
[02:02:25] <pfred1> the way he eats you'd think he should stand 4 feet at the shoulder
[02:04:42] <les> congo the cat (remember john?) was over 20 lb but he lost some weight
[02:05:11] <jmkasunich> http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/steps.jpg
[02:05:16] <jmkasunich> les: I remember
[02:05:33] <jmkasunich> that's a proper sized dog
[02:05:52] <les> heh
[02:06:08] <les> congo now has his chicken to keep him busy
[02:06:08] <jmkasunich> the cat in the pic is our smaller one, the other one is black and about 18 lbs
[02:06:20] <pfred1> dmess oh a Siberian?
[02:06:22] <les> wow
[02:06:26] <jmkasunich> not fat, just big boned ;-)
[02:06:35] <dmess> oh ok if you say so...
[02:06:49] <dmess> and timber
[02:06:55] <jmkasunich> well, he's a little fat
[02:07:14] <dmess> she got hit by a truck last fall
[02:07:44] <les> I was trying to raise some chickens in a cage backa while
[02:08:17] <les> being a city boy I screwed up and all but one froze to death
[02:08:22] <les> one was left
[02:08:36] <pfred1> chickens can make cool pets
[02:08:39] <les> I said the hell with it and just let it go
[02:08:48] <pfred1> you let a chicken go?
[02:09:00] <les> chickens are flocking animals
[02:09:11] <les> so with no other chickens...
[02:09:15] <pfred1> the burning question here is where would a chicken go though?
[02:09:28] <jmkasunich> across the road?
[02:09:31] <les> it decided to just follow congo the cat
[02:09:50] <jmkasunich> of course, cats are _not_ flocking animals...
[02:09:52] <pfred1> chickens are so stupid they'll drown in the rain looking up to see what's hitting them in the head!
[02:09:55] <les> so congo has this chicken that follows him everywhere
[02:10:04] <les> it's the craziest thing
[02:10:08] <dmess> she had a 'tude from the get go....
[02:10:49] <les> jmk I have to dcc you this picture I took a couple days ago...ok?
[02:11:06] <jmkasunich> don
[02:11:07] <les> (my blog is down)
[02:11:12] <jmkasunich> don't know how to do dcc
[02:11:17] <pfred1> dmess Cujo lives!
[02:11:19] <dmess> big one i still have..
[02:11:27] <les> try it
[02:11:30] <dmess> nice voice ehh
[02:11:37] <les> you should get a prompt
[02:11:42] <jmkasunich> ok
[02:11:49] <pfred1> /dcc get les
[02:12:05] <pfred1> when you see the prompt
[02:12:23] <jmkasunich> ok
[02:12:56] <pfred1> oh look les came in over the Internet!
[02:13:02] <dmess> send him akiera... sayin get back to work
[02:14:07] <pfred1> well i gota hit the hay here big drive tomorrow
[02:14:11] <les> that was easy...congo and his chiken.
[02:14:24] <pfred1> nite all see you on Tuesday
[02:14:28] <les> gnight pfred
[02:14:38] <les> chicken
[02:14:43] <jmkasunich> cute
[02:14:54] <dmess> gnite fred
[02:15:03] <les> the chicken follows him everywhere
[02:15:07] <jmkasunich> fred has left the building
[02:15:12] <les> it is the craziest thing
[02:15:18] <jmkasunich> how does congo feel about it
[02:15:54] <les> he tolerates it...but if the chicken drinks out of his water bowl...he spaps it
[02:16:05] <les> slaps
[02:16:20] <jmkasunich> _my_ bowl!
[02:16:33] <les> heh I guess
[02:16:53] <les> sorry dmess want to see?
[02:20:05] <jmkasunich> does it matter whether the HD is on the primary or secondary IDE cable? (assuming the CD-ROM is on the other one)
[02:20:25] <jmkasunich> I'm used to HD on pri, CD on sec, but in this case the cables will route better the other way
[02:20:30] <SWPadnos> it's usually recommended to put the master at the end of the cable
[02:20:51] <SWPadnos> the HD should be the master on the primary channel, if you want to boot from it
[02:20:56] <jmkasunich> there will only be one devide per cable
[02:21:08] <SWPadnos> not strictly necessary, but definitely easier
[02:21:08] <jmkasunich> device
[02:21:17] <jmkasunich> darn
[02:21:25] <les> yeah with the little terminating resistor in the right place
[02:21:27] <SWPadnos> so yes, put the HD on the primary
[02:21:35] <SWPadnos> no term resistors on IDE
[02:21:38] <jmkasunich> les - terminators for for SCSI
[02:21:46] <les> heh ok
[02:21:52] <SWPadnos> but the MA/SL/CS jumper shuold be in the right place
[02:22:04] <les> there is some little jumper on mine
[02:22:09] <SWPadnos> (MAster for both devices, since you'll have only one per channel)
[02:22:15] <jmkasunich> right
[02:22:17] <SWPadnos> right - master / slave / cable select
[02:22:51] <les> I have two scsi raid 1
[02:22:57] <les> and a third ide
[02:23:13] <SWPadnos> yep - then you have nice little jumpers for termination and term power
[02:23:24] <les> yeah
[02:23:32] <SWPadnos> (plus ID, wait for start, etc)
[02:24:08] <les> I got burned once too much wirh hd failure between backups
[02:24:25] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: is the bios likely to have options for boot order (putting the HD on pri leads to ugly twisted cabling)
[02:24:27] <SWPadnos> heh - one of these days I'll fire up my SCSI RAID and tape backup unit :)
[02:24:40] <SWPadnos> probably not
[02:24:50] <jmkasunich> foo
[02:24:54] <SWPadnos> but - it may still boot from the secondary channel, since the first hard disk will be there
[02:25:01] <les> raid is good...but not perfect
[02:25:22] <SWPadnos> however, Linux will still see it as HDC, since the device names for IDE are tied to where they are on the controllers
[02:25:28] <les> if someting wants to trash the file system it will do both
[02:25:39] <jmkasunich> yuck
[02:25:41] <SWPadnos> I intend to use RAID5 in a hot swap cage
[02:25:46] <SWPadnos> that should help a little
[02:25:51] <les> yeah
[02:26:09] <jmkasunich> I have a couple hot swap cages (3 drives each), but no case to put them in
[02:26:11] <les> I use raid...a third ide, and cd backup
[02:26:21] <SWPadnos> are those the Intel ones that accept 1.6" drives?
[02:26:27] <SWPadnos> (or HP)
[02:26:29] <les> I just got burned too bad last hd failure
[02:26:40] <jmkasunich> HP
[02:26:40] <les> even messed up my irs stuff
[02:26:45] <SWPadnos> I'm actually running on a ghosted system that came from a failing HD
[02:26:54] <SWPadnos> have been for 3 years
[02:27:16] <SWPadnos> I definitely would like to upgrade / reinstall, but licenses are such a PITA
[02:27:32] <les> I had two Maxtors fail within 6 months
[02:27:45] <les> less than one year old
[02:27:57] <SWPadnos> Ah - the bad Maxtor years - was that around 3-5 years ago?
[02:28:16] <les> no about 2 years ago
[02:28:23] <les> 1 or 2
[02:28:25] <SWPadnos> I had an IBM deskstar (called DeathStars by most)
[02:28:52] <SWPadnos> hmmm - Maxtor has been pretty reliable the last few years - I wonder if they just had a bad batch
[02:29:06] <les> I don't know
[02:29:08] <jmkasunich> know anything about IBM DTTA-37110? those aren't deskstars are they?
[02:29:21] <SWPadnos> could be - mine was a DTLA
[02:29:24] <les> I am using 3 seagate 80s now
[02:29:57] <jmkasunich> I have 3-4 of the DTTA, 10G, 7200RPM, 9mS
[02:30:08] <SWPadnos> sure it's not a 37010?
[02:30:14] <jmkasunich> this new box is gonna be using a WD-300, 30G, 7200, 8.9mS
[02:30:16] <SWPadnos> or 371010?
[02:30:26] <jmkasunich> 371010
[02:30:51] <SWPadnos> OK. only $102.00 :)
[02:31:08] <jmkasunich> new? or now? (now, I'd expect about $20)
[02:32:21] <les> I can hardly believe how cheap HD storage is these days
[02:32:28] <SWPadnos> new, I think
[02:32:36] <SWPadnos> the same price as a 120 or 160G drive
[02:32:45] <SWPadnos> yeah - it's pretty sick
[02:33:08] <jmkasunich> I wish BDI-4.20 didn't have problems with SCSI
[02:33:08] <SWPadnos> my high school computer club raised $895 to buy a hard drive (for our BBS machine)
[02:33:19] <SWPadnos> it was a 10M external drive - the "Sider"
[02:33:30] <jmkasunich> I have 5 pcs of Seagate ST39102LW, 10KRPM, 5.4mS
[02:33:36] <SWPadnos> You can get more than a terabyte for that money now
[02:33:46] <les> I purchased an original ibm xt
[02:34:02] <jmkasunich> my 3rd computer was an XT clone
[02:34:05] <les> cost about half as much as an economy car
[02:34:17] <jmkasunich> wow, you must have been an early adopter
[02:34:30] <jmkasunich> my clone was $882 in 1986 or so
[02:34:34] <SWPadnos> funny - my third computer was IBM compatible as well (AT&T 6300)
[02:34:42] <jmkasunich> don't ask me why I remember that amount
[02:34:50] <les> I needed it to run a Chicago laser resistor trimmer
[02:35:10] <jmkasunich> first: trs-80 (actually bought by my parents, and shared by my brother and I)
[02:35:10] <SWPadnos> The original PC was around $5500 to IBM employees (with a whopping 16k RAM)
[02:35:14] <jmkasunich> second was the Kaypro
[02:35:43] <SWPadnos> Kaypro was PC compatible though
[02:36:02] <SWPadnos> I had a TI 99/4A, then an atari 800XL, then the 6300
[02:36:05] <jmkasunich> nope - Z-80, 4MHz, 64K ram, CP/M
[02:36:20] <SWPadnos> Oh right - that was a luggable TRS-80
[02:36:31] <jmkasunich> lol
[02:36:31] <les> I had a sinclair z 80 at home
[02:36:33] <SWPadnos> I had a friend that built one when we were in high school :)
[02:36:38] <jmkasunich> no, far better than the trs-80
[02:36:41] <SWPadnos> wood case and all :)
[02:36:53] <SWPadnos> yeah - 2-4 times the speed
[02:37:18] <jmkasunich> plus 4x the RAM, and real disks
[02:37:21] <dmess> anyone remember the kit-puter
[02:37:23] <jmkasunich> instead of tape
[02:37:51] <SWPadnos> the trash-80 had disks, but not the first ones I suppose
[02:37:54] <les> My first was commodore
[02:38:03] <jmkasunich> you had to get an expansion box for disks
[02:38:08] <SWPadnos> the Personal Electronic Transactor?
[02:38:25] <jmkasunich> the base machine was just a bulky keyboard, with connectors for monitor and cassette tape
[02:38:40] <les> had cassette
[02:38:47] <les> and ms basic
[02:38:48] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I may not remember the original TRS-80, just the model II and model III
[02:38:58] <SWPadnos> complete with TRS-DOS
[02:39:08] <jmkasunich> ah, those came later
[02:39:18] <SWPadnos> and of course the CoCo
[02:39:21] <dmess> commadore basic
[02:39:38] <les> I only new fortran...but basic was easy to learn
[02:39:44] <les> later c
[02:39:47] <SWPadnos> it's a pretty basic language
[02:39:54] <les> which was harder for me
[02:39:55] <SWPadnos> (har har)
[02:40:10] <jmkasunich> the original had basic in ROM, if you were ambitious, you could do assembly... assemble by hand, put it into "DATA" statements in a basic prog, poke into ram and call it
[02:40:21] <SWPadnos> C is an odd language to get used to when you aren't used to e.g. declaring functions or variables
[02:40:31] <SWPadnos> been there, done that
[02:40:37] <les> I did APL in school some
[02:40:48] <jmkasunich> my first multi-threaded, realtime prog was done that way
[02:40:53] <SWPadnos> even changed some of the BASIC command names
[02:40:53] <les> had to get used to pointers in c
[02:40:55] <jmkasunich> morse code keyer
[02:41:09] <SWPadnos> Remember the magazine 80Micro?
[02:41:22] <les> I did a morse reader in ms basic
[02:41:29] <jmkasunich> one thread handled the keyboard, read chars in and stuck them in a buffer, the other thread pulled em out and sent em
[02:42:15] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: nope, I was a nerdy kid in a small town... no connection to my fellow nerds
[02:42:20] <SWPadnos> interesting - the entire leaderboard on StorageReview is Maxtor drives
[02:42:24] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:42:27] <les> I found that c helped a little in writing structured code
[02:42:35] <SWPadnos> that's odd
[02:42:42] <SWPadnos> usually it lets you do whatever you want
[02:42:50] <les> I wrote some nasty spaghetti in bsic and fortrn
[02:42:51] <SWPadnos> (other than spaghetti gotos)
[02:43:15] <SWPadnos> there is a GOTO in C, but it's only allowed within a function
[02:43:25] <SWPadnos> (I think - I'd have to look that up)
[02:43:31] <les> oh I can still write spaghetti even in c haha
[02:43:37] <jmkasunich> sounds right to me...
[02:43:44] <SWPadnos> I actually wrote an Asteroids clone in Atari BASIC
[02:43:50] <les> ha
[02:43:54] <SWPadnos> (before I had a computer) :)
[02:44:02] <jmkasunich> to jump outside a function you use longjmp/setjmp, truly a crufty thing
[02:44:11] <SWPadnos> yes
[02:44:18] <les> heh
[02:44:25] <SWPadnos> so you really have to *want* to write spaghetti code
[02:44:29] <jmkasunich> but handy at times, if used carefully
[02:44:47] <jmkasunich> longjmp that is
[02:44:59] <SWPadnos> I can't remember if there are rules regarding where setjmp/longjmp can be used
[02:45:11] <les> i used to use it for job security I guess
[02:45:15] <SWPadnos> can you setjmp in one function, then longjmp in another?
[02:45:26] <jmkasunich> yes, something like that....
[02:45:32] <jmkasunich> you call setjmp, the call returns
[02:45:42] <jmkasunich> then later you call longjmp, and the setjmp returns again
[02:45:48] <SWPadnos> that's great for switching error handlers and the like (like a pseudo-throw)
[02:45:59] <jmkasunich> exactly - about the only thing it's good for
[02:46:30] <SWPadnos> ah - returns to the place the setjmp was called?
[02:46:36] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:46:37] <les> I originally went to c because it just ran faster
[02:46:44] <SWPadnos> (I haven't ever used those - I guess I write good code :) )
[02:46:59] <SWPadnos> WAY faster than BASIC
[02:47:05] <les> not as good as hand coded assembler...but close
[02:47:08] <jmkasunich> I used them in an error handling lib I wrote back when I programmed for DOS (Turbo-C, and later Watcom)
[02:47:16] <jmkasunich> haven't used them since I started on Linux
[02:47:22] <SWPadnos> I had a pseudo-C language for the Atari called Action
[02:47:43] <SWPadnos> It was excellent - I wrote a pretty full-featured drawing program with it
[02:48:00] <SWPadnos> could rubberband lines / ellipses, and do pretty fast fills
[02:48:11] <SWPadnos> complete with undo, all in 64k
[02:48:16] <jmkasunich> nice
[02:48:37] <SWPadnos> (that's where I got a lot of my optimization ideas :) )
[02:48:52] <SWPadnos> doing ellipses with only 16-bit integer math is fun :)
[02:49:01] <jmkasunich> back in the early-mid 90's I was pretty heavily into 3-D graphics programming
[02:49:08] <jmkasunich> similar stuff
[02:49:17] <SWPadnos> cool - you must have been using SGI boxes then ...
[02:49:27] <jmkasunich> no, this was hobby stuff
[02:49:30] <SWPadnos> ah
[02:49:31] <jmkasunich> PC
[02:49:42] <SWPadnos> we had an Iris lab at UVM - fun stuff there
[02:49:57] <SWPadnos> do you remember the Intel '860?
[02:50:07] <jmkasunich> but I got the tech manual for the Matrox Millennium and wrote libs that used it's triangle and z-buffer capabilities
[02:50:23] <SWPadnos> the bastards never sent me the information :(
[02:50:29] <jmkasunich> (this was before direct-foo made card specific libs like mine obsolete)
[02:50:39] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:50:41] <jmkasunich> I still have it, want a copy?
[02:50:46] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[02:51:00] <jmkasunich> the docs I mean
[02:51:17] <SWPadnos> heh - no thanks - unless they also apply to the Parhelia and G400-class cards :)
[02:51:29] <jmkasunich> doubt it ;-)
[02:51:45] <SWPadnos> me too, otherwise the Parhelia would be better supported under Linux
[02:51:48] <SWPadnos> :(
[02:52:16] <jmkasunich> word dredged up from past programming: quarternions
[02:53:45] <SWPadnos> hmmm - never used that one (though it raises a dim memory - I've probably heard it before :) )
[02:54:00] <SWPadnos> probably from the same time frame as aliquot
[02:54:08] <jmkasunich> alternative to transformation matrices for doing 3D transforms
[02:54:28] <SWPadnos> do you remember the September 1983 Byte magazine?
[02:54:44] <jmkasunich> no
[02:54:49] <SWPadnos> (on Graphics, complete with a full assembly language listing for doing 3D graphics on an NEC APC)
[02:55:06] <jmkasunich> I was a junior in college at the time
[02:55:09] <SWPadnos> at least, 3D transforms of vertices, including (optionally) perspective
[02:55:20] <SWPadnos> heh - I was in High school at the time
[02:55:29] <jmkasunich> I did much the same stuff, but several years later
[02:55:30] <SWPadnos> so I went to the local computer store to type in the program :)
[02:55:59] <jmkasunich> the TRS-80 was at home, and the only thing at college was mainframe
[02:56:32] <jmkasunich> as a freshman I got in trouble... the beginning computing class was in Pascal (pah!) and used the mainframe
[02:57:02] <jmkasunich> I discovered it had basic, and also discovered a rarely used Tektronic storage tube graphics terminal
[02:57:34] <jmkasunich> I wrote some wire-frame 3-D stuff, and used about half of the whole class's mainframe CPU budget playing with it
[02:58:08] <SWPadnos> heh - that'll piss them off :)
[02:58:12] <jmkasunich> yeah
[02:58:27] <SWPadnos> funny - as a freshman, I wrote a Pascal program to control the hardware my friend made. we had a full 2-channel oscilloscope, ARB, multimeter, fft, logic analyzer, etc on an ISA plug-in card
[02:58:35] <SWPadnos> full GUI and mouse operation too
[02:58:46] <SWPadnos> in roughly 13k lines of code
[02:59:08] <jmkasunich> I was really into graphics back then... I even taught myself enough Fortran to access that terminal (drivers for Fortran only, so my basic prog would output a list of coordinates and then a short fortran prog would send the list to the terminal to draw)
[02:59:09] <SWPadnos> those were the days
[02:59:15] <les> I just did apl inschool
[02:59:40] <SWPadnos> I'd have killed myself if I had APL in school
[02:59:44] <jmkasunich> APL is an abomination on the face of the earty
[02:59:46] <jmkasunich> earth
[02:59:53] <les> inverting 64x64 matrices with one line
[02:59:57] <SWPadnos> (that's the one with funny symbols for functions, right?)
[03:00:14] <jmkasunich> I had a class "numerical methods" and the instructor was an APL fanatic
[03:00:20] <SWPadnos> though the code looks accurate: "$%^@&#*$%"
[03:00:25] <jmkasunich> yes, you needed a special terminal and keyblard and everything
[03:00:53] <les> that is what they wanted me to use...so I did
[03:01:07] <SWPadnos> it might as well have been Kanji - at least someone could have recognize dit as a language
[03:01:17] <jmkasunich> yeah, that was some nasty shit
[03:01:36] <jmkasunich> I finally got introduced to C as a senior
[03:01:48] <les> It was working on the space shuttle
[03:02:06] <les> APL was big then
[03:02:20] <SWPadnos> the military was a big proponent, IIRC
[03:02:28] <SWPadnos> and IBM
[03:02:40] <les> I taught myself c...and not very well
[03:02:49] <SWPadnos> then the navy had ADA invented for them
[03:02:51] <jmkasunich> then they realized that an unreadable and unmaintainable language wasn't really such a good idea
[03:03:02] <SWPadnos> very dense, but totally unreadable
[03:03:36] <SWPadnos> after all - if you make a character set with 7000 characters, you only need one char per function name
[03:04:53] <les> I just used APL for flow studies on the space shuttle fuel tank
[03:05:06] <jmkasunich> the instructor who was pushing APL was "Fredrick Way III", we used to say there were three ways to do anything... the right way, the wrong way, and the Freddy Way
[03:05:21] <les> that is what I got payed for
[03:05:44] <les> I was on a nasa grant
[03:05:51] <jmkasunich> gawd, makes you realize how _old_ the shuttles really are!
[03:06:01] <les> so I did what thety wanted
[03:06:10] <les> old as me.
[03:06:36] <SWPadnos> as the current Popular Science says, "you couldn't sell the shuttle's computers at a garage sale"
[03:06:53] <les> yeah
[03:07:00] <SWPadnos> but they do run the best software ever written, by most accounts
[03:07:10] <SWPadnos> like 1 bug per million lines of code
[03:07:36] <jmkasunich> I seem to recall somebody at NASA who's job is to go around (not quite to garage sales) and snap up obsolete hardware that they simply can't get any other way
[03:07:44] <SWPadnos> (versus something like 5 bugs per 1000 lines)
[03:08:02] <les> I just did flow studies of the fuel tank at low mach...that is all I know about it
[03:08:13] <SWPadnos> I actually met a person whos company redesigns old devices using newer technology
[03:08:43] <SWPadnos> because it's cheaper to get a custom board to replace an old unit htan it is to prove the entire sys tem again
[03:08:56] <les> heh
[03:08:57] <jmkasunich> HA! persistance pays off...
[03:09:12] <jmkasunich> ribbon cable oragami, but it fits and is reasonably neat
[03:09:28] <jmkasunich> and the HD is on the primary connector
[03:09:35] <SWPadnos> have you done the blood sacrifice?
[03:09:57] <jmkasunich> not yet
[03:10:14] <SWPadnos> ah - well there's still time, you haven't put the case on yet :)
[03:10:45] <jmkasunich> this case doesn't have a skin, it just has a lid
[03:10:59] <les> I bleed on every thing I make eventually
[03:11:04] <SWPadnos> ah - well you'd better find a sharp edge then, or it'll never work
[03:12:28] <jmkasunich> you can tell folks don't use floppies much anymore
[03:12:38] <les> I must go...getting sleepy..got up at 5
[03:12:52] <jmkasunich> the connector for the floppy ribbon is _way_ over on the other side of the mobo
[03:12:52] <SWPadnos> by the fact that they're only available at 1 in 10 stores now?
[03:13:00] <les> good night all
[03:13:00] <SWPadnos> see ya Les
[03:13:05] <jmkasunich> night SWP
[03:13:11] <SWPadnos> no - he's leaving :)
[03:13:13] <dmess> nite les
[03:13:15] <jmkasunich> oops
[03:13:17] <jmkasunich> nite les
[03:13:20] <les> night
[03:13:25] <SWPadnos> me too though - so thanks and good night :)
[03:13:31] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[03:13:35] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[03:13:38] <dmess> be well
[03:13:41] <SWP_Away> heh
[03:14:42] <dmess> i cant see the XP box on my network...
[03:15:28] <jmkasunich> hmmmm, no windoze... isn't that a _good_ thing?
[03:15:36] <dmess> hmmm odd... but i can log into my router from the lan browser
[03:16:06] <dmess> instead of the web node
[03:16:36] <dmess> cool
[03:22:11] <dmess> any type of dos emu in debian based EMC
[03:29:38] <SWP_Away> dmess: try browsing to smb:/ in konqueror
[03:33:41] <dmess> what is smb/ ???
[03:34:22] <SWP_Away> your windows LAN
[03:34:33] <SWP_Away> and you need the colon smb:/
[03:34:59] <SWP_Away> you should set the workgroup mane in control center
[03:35:02] <SWP_Away> name
[03:35:10] <dmess> but i still cant see the XP box... i see the 98 boxes fine
[03:35:22] <dmess> yes it is set
[03:35:40] <SWP_Away> are there any shared drives on the XP box?
[03:35:51] <SWP_Away> (shared folders)
[03:35:55] <dmess> yes i shared one to test this..
[03:36:44] <SWP_Away> OK - I wonder if there's a setting that needs to be made on the EMC box, or if there's a new "feature" in WinXP that prevents Samba from seeing it ;)
[03:37:31] <dmess> 98 sees the xp box fine
[03:38:21] <SWP_Away> that doesn't man that the XP box will respond to a net query from a Linux machine running SAMBA
[03:38:23] <SWP_Away> mean
[03:38:25] <dmess> but doesnt see linux box
[03:38:58] <SWP_Away> you need to set up samba as a server to get other machines to see the Linux box
[03:39:28] <SWP_Away> but you shuold be able to connect to shares on the windows boxes easily
[03:39:30] <dmess> so its a server and client...
[03:39:39] <SWP_Away> (it works here with our Win98 and Win2k machines)
[03:39:57] <dmess> 98 is fine here too
[03:40:05] <SWP_Away> yes there's an SMB client that's trivially easy to use, but setting up a server is different
[03:40:22] <SWP_Away> you have to set up all the home directories, usernames, permissions, etc.
[03:40:43] <dmess> yeah.. i understand
[03:41:25] <dmess> i can make it work for now..
[03:42:14] <SWP_Away> cool - then I'll actually go to bed :)
[03:42:18] <asdfqwega> My definition of fun: what I'm doing *right now*...
[03:42:28] <asdfqwega> Short notice project
[03:42:54] <asdfqwega> make some spacers for speakers in my brother's new car
[03:43:09] <dmess> thx swp... ; )
[03:43:14] <asdfqwega> Time from speaker to CAD to .ngc - 15 minutes
[03:43:24] <asdfqwega> Now to use my laser!
[03:44:38] <dmess> fire her up...
[03:44:59] <dmess> im off to bed too... long day..
[04:01:05] <jmkasunich> time to bring up the new box
[05:23:26] <Alpha1125> Alpha1125 is now known as A-L-P-H-A
[05:51:52] <nevyn_> nevyn_ is now known as nevyn
[09:46:01] <anonimasu> good morning
[09:58:17] <robin_sz> meep?
[09:58:26] <anonimasu> robin_sz: meep
[09:58:45] <robin_sz> are we well today?
[09:59:40] <anonimasu> yeah
[09:59:42] <anonimasu> just woke up
[09:59:44] <robin_sz> good
[10:00:02] <anonimasu> going to work with some electronics and then go out and tram the mill with a dial indicator and try to find out why it's chattering..
[10:00:14] <anonimasu> you?
[10:00:24] <robin_sz> coding
[10:00:31] <anonimasu> nice
[10:00:34] <robin_sz> got to go get some metal too
[10:00:40] <robin_sz> if I can be bothered
[10:00:42] <robin_sz> :)
[10:00:56] <robin_sz> I had a few response to my job advert ...
[10:01:23] <robin_sz> including someone who didnt want a job :)
[10:02:37] <robin_sz> local firm that spends a load on laser cutting :) ... wanted to know if I wanted any work ...
[10:02:40] <robin_sz> tee hee.
[10:02:49] <anonimasu> nice
[10:03:03] <robin_sz> they spend �80K a month on laser work ..
[10:03:07] <anonimasu> that means your big laser wont be sitting idle
[10:03:22] <robin_sz> so even a small slice of that will be good.
[10:03:30] <robin_sz> yep, hope so.
[10:04:44] <robin_sz> local car make just went bust ... that could also be interesting
[10:05:08] <anonimasu> yeah
[10:05:11] <robin_sz> its going to put pressure on a lot of local parts shops
[10:06:17] <robin_sz> which could be good in a way ...
[10:06:36] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[10:06:42] <anonimasu> upswing of local shops..
[10:06:59] <anonimasu> work comes like that if somone hires you and you are crammed there will be more people comming also..
[10:07:11] <robin_sz> well, I was thinking a number of the laser shops might fold
[10:07:26] <robin_sz> I know two local shops where heavily dependent on Rover ..
[10:07:28] <anonimasu> probably
[10:07:51] <robin_sz> which means their smaller jobs might be looking for new homes
[12:32:48] <robin_sz> meep?
[12:32:58] <Jymmm> WACK!
[12:33:18] <SWP_Away> SPLAT!
[12:33:23] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[12:33:43] <Jymmm> robin_sz what video card are you using?
[12:34:10] <robin_sz> some Nvidia thing
[12:34:19] <Jymmm> robin_sz specifics?
[12:34:33] <robin_sz> back at the office
[12:34:52] <Jymmm> *sigh*
[12:35:06] <robin_sz> if this is for what I think its for ...
[12:35:13] <robin_sz> why not just use the list on the site??
[12:35:26] <Jymmm> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
[12:35:39] <robin_sz> to view the list?
[12:35:44] <robin_sz> nah, its free
[12:35:53] <Jymmm> lol, no. the cards themselves
[12:36:07] <robin_sz> well, I think we paid a couple of hundred bucks
[12:36:22] <robin_sz> having said that, iut runs fine on my laptop
[12:37:00] <Jymmm> I picked up a $100 3D pci card with 256MB and I'm having some issues still (resolved others)
[12:37:09] <Jymmm> robin_sz what laptop?
[12:37:18] <robin_sz> VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc Rage Mobility M4 AGP
[12:37:25] <robin_sz> Inspiron 8100
[12:37:32] <Jymmm> dell ?
[12:37:44] <robin_sz> it also ran fine on my Dell 2450 P4
[12:37:59] <SWPadnos> ?
[12:38:46] <robin_sz> Jymmm: can I take a guess that your box is a collection of random parts assembled in your bedroom?
[12:39:16] <Jymmm> robin_sz Actually no,
[12:39:22] <robin_sz> HP?
[12:39:36] <robin_sz> Dell?
[12:39:55] <robin_sz> go on then .. what brand is it?
[12:40:09] <Jymmm> robin_sz oh, i built it, yeah.
[12:40:14] <robin_sz> right.
[12:40:17] <robin_sz> like I said then.
[12:41:01] <Jymmm> I'm not paying $600 for a video card for this machine!
[12:41:52] <Jymmm> I'll try it on the laptop, it's a faster machine, but I'm not thinking I'll get much better results.
[12:42:18] <robin_sz> you need to decide whether your interest is in building PCs or using them. A basic Dell costs $299 (incl monitor) and will probably work fine, your collection of random bits probably cost more, used valauble time to build, and wont run the application. nuff said.
[12:42:47] <robin_sz> what card is in the machine right now?
[12:43:02] <Jymmm> robin_sz which one? =)
[12:43:09] <robin_sz> the troublesome one?
[12:43:29] <Jymmm> AIW 128 and ATI 9200 w/ 256mb
[12:44:36] <SWPadnos> what Dell is $299 with monitor?
[12:44:40] <robin_z> bah
[12:44:43] <SWPadnos> what Dell is $299 with monitor?
[12:44:49] <robin_z> dual head .. with unsupported cards?
[12:45:11] <robin_z> did you overclock the cards too?
[12:45:29] <Jymmm> robin_sz: I'm NOT running dual display (switching), and NOTHING is OC'ed.
[12:45:54] <robin_z> well, dump one of the cards then for a start
[12:46:15] <Jymmm> robin_sz only one is active at a time
[12:46:16] <SWPadnos> what doesn't work?
[12:46:45] <robin_s> SWPadnos: the 2400 is $299 with monitor
[12:46:52] <SWPadnos> ok
[12:46:57] <Jymmm> brb
[12:47:06] <robin_s> pesk connection
[12:47:20] <robin_s> right ... I'll fix it
[12:48:09] <robinz> right
[12:48:18] <robinz> poxy thing ...
[12:50:28] <SWPadnos> damn - I'd just about buy an Intel processor at that price
[12:50:46] <robinz> yeah
[12:51:07] <robinz> I have NFC why anyone builds a box these days, unless its because they enjoy pain
[12:51:08] <SWPadnos> I think the next machine I buy (assemble) will be a dual Opteron, though
[12:51:14] <SWPadnos> I love pain
[12:51:21] <robinz> fine ;)
[12:51:36] <SWPadnos> I find that the components used in the cheap units are crap as well
[12:51:40] <robinz> personally, I have enough trouble with software, the hardware should just work
[12:51:54] <robinz> ive found the opposite with Dell
[12:52:24] <robinz> when you are shipping x million units on a tight budget you want near zero returns
[12:52:37] <robinz> component quality is right up there
[12:52:44] <SWPadnos> crap as in not high performance, not necessarily that it will fail
[12:52:45] <Jymmm> no comment
[12:53:01] <robinz> you can go from cheap dell to performance dell
[12:53:27] <Jymmm> * Jymmm isn't a Dell fan... especially after working on a few thousand of them
[12:53:50] <SWPadnos> sure, but a performance dell is expensive, so the comparison of "pre-built is cheap" fails when you upgrade to a system with viable specs
[12:54:14] <Jymmm> I've worked on dell "workstations", I'm not that impressed.
[12:54:32] <robinz> the troule (as Jymmm demonstrates) is that a home built box is bascically useless. it sort of works, but does "odd" things in certain apps, becasue an FooBar card with an AMI Vxxx bios doent work well with that applocation
[12:54:45] <SWPadnos> additionally, I prefer to not buy Windows with my machine - an option I have when I buy parts
[12:55:18] <SWPadnos> I haven't run into those problems very often
[12:55:18] <robinz> Jymmm: yeah well, be as impressed or unimpressed as you like .. .all I'll say is my dell is running that app as smooth as silk, yours is dead in the water ..
[12:55:32] <SWPadnos> and I have had that kind of trouble with brand-name machines as well
[12:55:33] <Jymmm> robinz AMI bios?
[12:55:51] <SWPadnos> (example, not actual, problem)
[12:55:54] <robinz> Jymmm: wahtever .. some random combination of bits you'll never figure out
[12:56:25] <robinz> with mainstream apps on mainstream hardware, you stand a much better chance
[12:56:34] <robinz> and its cheaper
[12:56:41] <Jymmm> robinz Ah, well this is a bit older system; P3 800 w/ 768MB
[12:57:31] <Jymmm> But after upgrading to a new video card it works "better" than it did before, just not "perfect"
[12:58:02] <robinz> well, a couple more cards, you might hit lucky ;)
[12:58:35] <robinz> so just another $300 and a few weeks work .. you could be sorted ...
[13:00:00] <SWPadnos> If you want to run a pre-built Dell with Windows XP, Office XP, IE6.x and OE, feel free, but I'd prefer to support some alternatives, and I'm willing to invest both time and money to do it
[13:00:25] <SWPadnos> sometimes half the fun is getting there
[13:00:38] <robinz> depends if you are doing it for fun or profit
[13:00:44] <SWPadnos> true enough
[13:00:55] <robinz> and I dont run IE, OfficeXP or OE
[13:01:15] <SWPadnos> I figured, but that's where the "it's standard and it works" argument leads
[13:01:39] <robinz> XP and a Dell works fine as delivered for most apps
[13:01:57] <robinz> path of least resistance and all that
[13:01:58] <SWPadnos> But not any Linux apps, for example
[13:02:14] <robinz> well true
[13:02:20] <SWPadnos> for a non-windows install, a Dell isn't ideal
[13:02:29] <robinz> probably not
[13:02:46] <robinz> they do ship with linux if you want it
[13:02:57] <SWPadnos> and I'm not sure how good their support is if you call and say "my hard drive died, and I'm running Linux"
[13:03:01] <Jymmm> but you can't order one w/o M$
[13:03:08] <SWPadnos> I know they did for a while, I thought they stopped
[13:03:09] <robinz> yes you can
[13:03:14] <robinz> no they do it again
[13:03:26] <robinz> esp on servers
[13:04:00] <Jymmm> robinz what resolution are you running?
[13:04:02] <SWPadnos> yep - only on workstations and servers, none of the less expensive PCs
[13:04:17] <robinz> well indeed.
[13:04:19] <robinz> no point
[13:04:43] <SWPadnos> if they had an inexpensive AMD based system that I could get with no OS, I might buy it :)
[13:04:52] <robinz> yeah
[13:05:08] <robinz> I suspect they should offer a no OS version .. they do an servers
[13:05:21] <robinz> dell is going single core on opteron
[13:05:33] <robinz> so probably you should go with HP
[13:05:44] <SWPadnos> not that it matters - just plug in the dual-core chip, and you're off and running
[13:05:55] <SWPadnos> (unless they prevent the BIOS update necessary for that)
[13:05:59] <robinz> ummm
[13:06:03] <Jymmm> home built isn't that big a deal these days.... everything except hi-end video is on the mobo already... no I/O cards anymore =)
[13:06:22] <SWPadnos> yeah - my spreadsheet for PC purchases is much shorter these days :)
[13:06:49] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: what's the problem you're trying to resolve right now?
[13:07:20] <robinz> Jymmm: would you lik eot buy a bridge?
[13:07:34] <SWPadnos> hey - I thought we had a deal ;)