#emc | Logs for 2005-03-22

[00:00:53] <pfred1> damn i never took a pic of it
[00:01:35] <Jymmm> how much you sell the boxes for?
[00:01:48] <pfred1> I haven't done a show in a while now
[00:02:00] <pfred1> depends on how it came out how i made it
[00:02:09] <pfred1> anywhere from $6 to $40 depending
[00:02:30] <Jymmm> ah
[00:02:33] <pfred1> some stuff is pretty standardized
[00:02:43] <pfred1> like my CD boxes I get like $15 for those
[00:03:10] <pfred1> the only hting i really make any money on is garden signs
[00:03:19] <pfred1> they're the gold!
[00:03:22] <Jymmm> cnc'ed ?
[00:03:35] <Jymmm> pic?
[00:03:37] <pfred1> nope i do them by hand as of now but someday I want to do them CNC
[00:03:51] <robin_sz> hmmm ... nice box joints
[00:03:56] <pfred1> oh here's that bench
[00:04:04] <pfred1>
[00:04:21] <pfred1> that's ripped and glued pallet stringers the top of it
[00:04:52] <robin_sz> heh
[00:05:12] <pfred1> here's signs
[00:05:50] <pfred1> in the trade we have a technical name for that sort of product
[00:05:57] <pfred1> we call it "Shit on a Stick!"
[00:06:06] <pfred1> and man does it sell!
[00:06:13] <robin_sz> heh
[00:06:26] <robin_sz> you need a cnc router :)
[00:06:31] <pfred1> you can turn one pallet into about %40 making signs out of it
[00:06:37] <pfred1> $40 even
[00:07:03] <pfred1> so the next time you see some rat pallet on the side of the road just think what you're really looking at is a $40 bill
[00:07:43] <pfred1> robin_sz yeah but i got mad IPM :)
[00:08:12] <robin_sz> I was thinking of the lettering
[00:08:26] <robin_sz> could still make it "hand made" looking
[00:08:33] <robin_sz> but LOTS quicker :)
[00:08:40] <pfred1> yeah but can you make one in 5 minutes?
[00:08:47] <robin_sz> easy
[00:09:07] <robin_sz> a CNC will beat hand routing in speed every day
[00:09:28] <pfred1> I can't imagine how well unless it's a $20,000 machine
[00:09:43] <robin_sz> and you can be nailing up one sucker whil the next is being made :)
[00:09:45] <robin_sz> ??
[00:09:56] <robin_sz> my machine was basically $1000
[00:10:00] <pfred1> I move the bit as fast as you can and still cut the wood
[00:10:10] <robin_sz> 600 ipm was easy
[00:10:20] <pfred1> wow
[00:10:24] <robin_sz> an I got 200lbs of thrust
[00:11:14] <pfred1> here was my other Hulla Hoop
[00:11:22] <pfred1> I sold tons of those planters!
[00:11:45] <robin_sz> nice
[00:12:02] <pfred1> some women would buy them 4 and 5 at a time!
[00:12:17] <robin_sz> seen the ones made out of lots of 4" sections of 1"x3/4" ??
[00:13:15] <pfred1> don't know
[00:13:51] <pfred1> that's the trick you can make whatever but it has to sell
[00:14:12] <robin_sz> http://www.timberworkshop.co.uk/images/horseshoe_wall_largepic.jpg
[00:14:14] <pfred1> so far the only things i ever found that are profitable are the signs the planters and these irnaments I make
[00:14:36] <pfred1> how's it put together with pneumatic nails?
[00:14:40] <robin_sz> yip
[00:15:00] <pfred1> well last i checked pneumatic nails don't grow on trees I'd have to get a lot for such an item
[00:15:07] <robin_sz> ??
[00:15:15] <robin_sz> cheapest nails you can get
[00:15:17] <pfred1> heck there got to be about $2 in nails in that thing!
[00:15:35] <robin_sz> 50c tops
[00:15:41] <Jymmm> robin_sz 200 lbs of thrust?
[00:15:52] <robin_sz> Jymmm: yeah. easy.
[00:15:57] <Jymmm> ?
[00:16:11] <robin_sz> do the maths
[00:16:35] <robin_sz> ok, 5Nm stepper motor
[00:16:46] <Jymmm> in oz's ?
[00:16:50] <robin_sz> 5mm pitch ballscrew
[00:17:05] <robin_sz> fsck knows in ozs .. 7, 800 ...
[00:17:14] <pfred1> robin_sz and you built this machine with $1000?
[00:17:14] <Jymmm> heh
[00:17:22] <robin_sz> so ...
[00:17:31] <Jymmm> pfred1 he bought parts off the back of a truck =)
[00:17:39] <robin_sz> 5N on the end of a 1m bar right?
[00:17:57] <pfred1> Jymmm or he had a crowbar in his hand while he was shopping!
[00:18:05] <robin_sz> 1 rev turns the end of the bar through??
[00:18:12] <Jymmm> s/crowbar/bolt cutters/
[00:18:29] <robin_sz> * robin_sz continues the maths lesson
[00:18:40] <pfred1> Jymmm yeah that's how I meant he was using it to jimmy the back door!
[00:18:48] <robin_sz> 2 x pi metres right?
[00:19:07] <robin_sz> so ... 5N turning a distance of 6.28 metres in one rev
[00:19:15] <robin_sz> thats 6280mm
[00:19:33] <robin_sz> but our ballscrew converts that to just 5mm of linear motion
[00:19:57] <pfred1> metric how can people use that stuff?
[00:20:00] <robin_sz> so the force must be 6280mm/5mm times greater right?
[00:20:06] <Jymmm> pfred1 no lcue
[00:20:25] <pfred1> it makes for horrible hardware too!
[00:20:27] <robin_sz> or about 1200 times ok?
[00:20:41] <pfred1> metric threads suck!
[00:21:03] <pfred1> UNC forever!
[00:21:22] <robin_sz> 1200 x 5N = 6000N,
[00:21:28] <robin_sz> that enough for ya?
[00:21:40] <Jymmm> robin_sz now in imperial
[00:22:00] <pfred1> robin_sz yeah in real measurements not them kiddie metric deals
[00:22:02] <robin_sz> what is the imperial unit of force?
[00:22:10] <pfred1> foot pounds
[00:22:10] <nevyn> * nevyn coughs at yanks
[00:22:15] <nevyn> ounce inches
[00:22:19] <nevyn> for small ones.
[00:22:23] <robin_sz> pfred1: wrong. tose ar both torque
[00:22:25] <pfred1> nevyn he said force!
[00:22:35] <nevyn> oh..
[00:22:41] <nevyn> psi
[00:22:45] <nevyn> no that's pressure.
[00:22:48] <robin_sz> heh
[00:22:58] <robin_sz> keep guessing
[00:23:06] <pfred1> last time i drove a car with 400 foot pounds of torque it seemed pretty forceful to me!
[00:23:07] <Jymmm> 12ga at someones head
[00:23:08] <nevyn> fuck imperial get with the real world
[00:23:26] <pfred1> yeah where crap all sucks!
[00:23:57] <pfred1> UNC is such a nice spread of sizes
[00:24:09] <pfred1> I seen and used metric hardware it doesn't compare
[00:24:15] <robin_sz> well, its "pounds force" .. the force exerted by a mass of 1 pound under gravity
[00:24:34] <robin_sz> thats where the trouble starts
[00:24:50] <robin_sz> pounds for force, pounds for mass
[00:24:56] <pfred1> robin_sz gravity is pretty common where most of us are
[00:25:05] <robin_sz> soon you start putting the wrong ones in equations and screwing up
[00:25:35] <pfred1> thank god my country has pretty much gotten out of the manned space mission program
[00:25:50] <robin_sz> you reckon? did you see the bad calc that guy did on geckodrive?
[00:26:14] <robin_sz> tried to calculate the power required to move a cutting head on a gantry
[00:26:54] <robin_sz> pounds (force) x feet per minute / some constant
[00:27:09] <robin_sz> gives power in watts
[00:27:18] <pfred1> watts are cool
[00:27:20] <robin_sz> but .. he used the pounds mass of the head
[00:27:43] <nevyn> ow.
[00:27:57] <nevyn> bad.
[00:27:59] <robin_sz> hint: if the pounds force required to move it are the same as the pounds mass .. your slides are shot :)
[00:28:25] <Jymmm> he used the weight of the gantry in his calculation?
[00:28:32] <robin_sz> something like that
[00:28:48] <Jymmm> that is just a dumbass
[00:28:54] <robin_sz> then he dicided the calcultations for power required must be different vertically and horizontally
[00:28:58] <nevyn> hrm.. can you cut hard things with a gantry style mill?
[00:29:05] <robin_sz> because its easier to push a car than lift it ...
[00:29:18] <nevyn> like stainless etc?
[00:29:25] <robin_sz> and all becuase you use pounds for force and mass :)
[00:29:34] <nevyn> or do you need a fixed head type mill?
[00:29:40] <robin_sz> yep
[00:29:48] <robin_sz> or a stiff gantry
[00:29:53] <Jymmm> robin_sz wait a sec.... it does require more power to lift a Z axis than it would to move an x axis
[00:30:04] <Jymmm> assuming not conterwighted
[00:30:16] <robin_sz> Jymmm: maybe .. but the calculatins are EXACTLY the same
[00:30:39] <Jymmm> oh, yeah, formula is, results won't be though.
[00:30:51] <robin_sz> so long as you use the FORCE exerted by the thing and NOT its mass in each one
[00:31:07] <pfred1> machines still need mass
[00:31:26] <Jymmm> I'm still trying to figure out a way to counterbalance the Z axis actually.
[00:31:42] <robin_sz> this guy used the mass and decided mariss was wrong to apply the linear motion calculatins as "this was lifting, not pushing" :))
[00:31:47] <pfred1> Jymmm helium baloons are always a festive touch
[00:32:03] <Jymmm> pfred1 Tried, take too long to fill 832 of em
[00:32:19] <robin_sz> I was going to point out to him that the force to push a car might be greater than the force to lift it .. but it seemed unfair :)
[00:32:23] <Jymmm> pfred1 and no, I'm not building a CNC baloon filler either!
[00:32:29] <pfred1> Jymmm go to the circus and hire some clown to do it
[00:32:42] <Jymmm> pfred1 what ya doin tomorrow?
[00:33:00] <nevyn> robin_sz: particularly if the parking brake is on?
[00:33:07] <robin_sz> nevyn: exactly
[00:33:18] <pfred1> line locks
[00:33:47] <Jymmm> robin_sz are you mucking with me ?
[00:33:56] <robin_sz> no, in what way?
[00:34:04] <Jymmm> or are you talking in general calculation, not CNC wise.
[00:34:12] <Jymmm> ^necessarily
[00:34:43] <robin_sz> oh, are the calculations for cncs not govenrend by the laws of physics then ;)?
[00:34:45] <Jymmm> horizontal motion requiring more force than vertical.
[00:34:51] <nevyn> on wet grass it's easier to pull a car that's trying to pull away from you than one that's just parked.
[00:34:51] <robin_sz> could do ...
[00:34:55] <pfred1> I'm talking a bleach pump in the trunk and 9.9s at the track!
[00:35:37] <robin_sz> Jymmm: it depends ... for a car with the brakes on, it could take more to push it than lift it
[00:35:51] <robin_sz> for a Z axis going DOWN it might be asier than X
[00:36:04] <pfred1> wheelie bars
[00:36:06] <Jymmm> robin_sz No, no, assuimg free wheeling
[00:36:41] <robin_sz> why assume that?
[00:37:07] <robin_sz> what about a mill with tight gibs??
[00:37:18] <Jymmm> ok
[00:37:20] <robin_sz> or pushing a Z axis down?
[00:37:28] <Jymmm> gravity
[00:37:37] <robin_sz> yep gravity helps out ...
[00:37:45] <robin_sz> or works agaisnt you
[00:38:06] <robin_sz> so long as you use the *force* required in your calcs they always work
[00:38:21] <robin_sz> in X it s just friction ...
[00:38:39] <robin_sz> in Z its friction - (mass x g) going down
[00:38:49] <robin_sz> and friction + (mass x g) going up
[00:39:16] <robin_sz> really its the same in X too
[00:39:30] <robin_sz> the general eqaution would be
[00:39:59] <nevyn> counterweighted Z is the bomb.
[00:40:13] <robin_sz> resultant force = friction + mass x g x sin <angle>
[00:40:46] <robin_sz> for X the angle is 90 degrees ... so m x g x 0 ...
[00:43:19] <robin_sz> the car one is a good one to do, 'cos someone allways comes out with "it cant be easier to lift than push, becasue the friction coefficient cant be greater than 1" ...
[00:51:50] <pfred1> robin_sz they never seen ice spikes!
[00:54:38] <robin_sz> heh :)
[00:54:52] <robin_sz> seen ski-joring?
[00:55:15] <robin_sz> its a race, on an ice track ...
[00:55:26] <robin_sz> motorbikes with spikes
[00:55:28] <pfred1> I seen motorcycle ice racing
[00:55:36] <robin_sz> this is different
[00:55:46] <robin_sz> each bike has a rope on the back
[00:55:55] <robin_sz> and a skier :)
[00:56:41] <pfred1> or as the crowd likes to refer to them a victim
[00:57:18] <robin_sz> heh.
[00:57:39] <robin_sz> it wwas in one of the UK bike papers once, done in sweden I think
[00:58:15] <pfred1> I've drank some of their ales I can see what would drive them to such activities
[00:59:00] <robin_sz> :)
[00:59:18] <robin_sz> when people tell you friction can't be greater than 1 ...
[00:59:45] <robin_sz> alwys ask them howcoem race motorcycles lean greater than 45 degrees in corners :)
[01:00:01] <robin_sz> they go to about 60 degrees
[01:18:18] <CIA-4> 03gspy 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/emcstepper.c: GPL notice added
[01:51:46] <Jymmm> nevyn it maybe be the bomb, but I still haven't come up wit a good way of doing it!
[02:02:29] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: hang a weight on a pulley which is attached to a post on the gantry and connect the head to the other side of the pulley
[02:03:15] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I wanted something more adjustable, not just adding weights to compensate for the load.
[02:03:54] <SWPadnos> well - that's a counterweight...
[02:04:12] <Jymmm> ok, fine... counter balance then.
[02:04:22] <SWPadnos> or counterbalance - it doesn't matter.
[02:04:44] <Jymmm> SWPadnos dont make me come up there and hurt you in person now!
[02:04:54] <SWPadnos> You need something that won't change significantly during operation
[02:04:55] <Jymmm> you know what I mean damnit!
[02:05:02] <SWPadnos> nope - I may not :)
[02:05:09] <Jymmm> liar
[02:05:26] <Jymmm> something lever'ish
[02:05:43] <SWPadnos> a lever can work, but will require a larger work envelope.
[02:05:55] <Jymmm> maybe a threaded rod with a fixed wieght that moves in and out to balance the laod.
[02:06:20] <Jymmm> it might not be a single lever
[02:06:28] <Jymmm> maybe a pully and a lever
[02:06:49] <Jymmm> isn't the more pulleys there are the load changes?
[02:07:18] <Jymmm> or the amount of force needed reduced I mean.
[02:08:14] <Jymmm> hey, maybe a round disc of some sort.
[02:08:51] <Jymmm> attaching a weight or weights in various areas on the the disc as a counter balance.
[02:11:21] <SWPadnos> Are you trying to compensate for the cutting load or the weight of the head?
[02:11:32] <Jymmm> head weight
[02:11:44] <SWPadnos> that's a constant, so a weight should work fine
[02:12:12] <Jymmm> I'm not putting a 3 lb counter weight on it.
[02:12:48] <Jymmm> or if I change heads, if adjustable I dont hav eto keep a set of weights around.
[02:12:49] <SWPadnos> Is the head only 3 pounds?
[02:13:10] <Jymmm> which head?
[02:13:15] <A-L-P-H-A> someone's richard is 3lbs! holy crap that's must be huge!
[02:14:40] <SWPadnos> well - you want to counterweight something
[02:14:57] <SWPadnos> that's generally only necessary for large things, like the knww of a Bridgeport, for example
[02:15:02] <SWPadnos> knee
[02:15:41] <SWPadnos> for a 10-pound milling head, if you need counterbalancing, then your Z-drive isn't strong enough to actually push a mill into a workpiece anyway
[02:16:20] <A-L-P-H-A> oh! he's trying to build his own mill.
[02:16:36] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A z axis on a cnc router
[02:17:06] <SWPadnos> (well - 10 pounds may be a bit mush, but you get the idea)
[02:17:09] <SWPadnos> much
[02:18:36] <gezr> rear hatch nitrogen spring
[02:19:39] <Jymmm> bah... think balance beam scale
[02:19:49] <Jymmm> like at the Dr's office
[02:20:31] <SWPadnos> sure - you can do that, but you'll need bigger motors on X and Y because of the extra weight
[02:20:57] <SWPadnos> you'll also need extra room on one side of the machine, to account for the arm sticking out for the weights
[02:21:25] <gezr> just a simple spring to slightly counteract gravity and push up to take out any extra backlash that may exist
[02:21:55] <SWPadnos> you can do that - and it can even be adjustable with a nut for tensioning the spring
[02:22:39] <pfred1> adjustable nuts!
[02:24:15] <SWPadnos> You should look at how the clockspring works on a Bridgeport
[02:24:24] <SWPadnos> that would do what you want
[02:27:50] <Jymmm> got camera and a bridgeport?
[02:28:10] <SWPadnos> Got Bridgeport
[02:28:23] <SWPadnos> and I don't want to take it apart anyway ;)
[02:28:39] <Jymmm> see how you are...
[02:28:46] <SWPadnos> I know - I'm a prick
[02:28:51] <SWPadnos> here's how it works"
[02:29:00] <pfred1> SWPadnos but just a little prick
[02:29:15] <SWPadnos> no - 3 pounds, remember?
[02:29:26] <Jymmm> lol
[02:29:49] <SWPadnos> there is a spring steel band that's wound around a post.
[02:30:11] <SWPadnos> it has many windings - like 20 or so (I think - I haven't disassembled it)
[02:30:18] <gezr> dont
[02:30:23] <Jymmm> well, whats taking you so long!
[02:30:35] <Jymmm> gezr shut up you!
[02:30:36] <SWPadnos> I'm a prick
[02:30:58] <gezr> we had the goose neck worm gear
[02:31:11] <gezr> 's holding pins snap on a guy, that was interesting
[02:31:21] <gezr> get the crain, get the crain, get the crain
[02:31:57] <gezr> he wasn't in the way, but still,
[02:32:06] <SWPadnos> look at this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25290&item=7502776365&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
[02:32:41] <SWPadnos> think about that middle bit being wound up tight around the screw that drives the Z axis
[02:33:48] <SWPadnos> not so tightly that it can't be moved any more, but enough to provide tension to cancel out gravity.
[02:33:57] <SWPadnos> (on the head - not in general :) )
[02:35:06] <pfred1> that's it anti-gravity!
[02:35:16] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos slaps pfred1
[02:35:27] <SWPadnos> that's what I was trying to avoid :)
[02:35:30] <pfred1> how about really powerful magnets in repulsion?
[02:35:32] <Jymmm> * Jymmm kicks pfred1 into outter space! How's that for anti-gravity!
[02:35:45] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: do you see how that works?
[02:35:58] <pfred1> like them executive desk gizmos
[02:36:38] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: you could probably approximate that for small loads with a 30 foot tape measure
[02:37:18] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Yeah, I understand, but I'm think more along the lines of a 4" disc with a lever on it,
[02:37:37] <Jymmm> the dic wouldn't be mounted center, it be offset.
[02:37:42] <Jymmm> s/dic/disc/
[02:37:45] <SWPadnos> hmmm - the tape measure idea is a great one
[02:38:04] <SWPadnos> this is small, adjustable, and lightweight
[02:38:25] <Jymmm> replace the 30' with a 24' tape ? lol
[02:39:03] <SWPadnos> might work ;)
[02:39:27] <SWPadnos> actually - if you take apart a tape measure, it has a clockspring in it to retract the tape
[02:39:34] <A-L-P-H-A> tape on a CNC machine? so wrong.
[02:39:41] <SWPadnos> it's adjustable, too
[02:39:55] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, whynot just build it out of lego blocks? hehehe
[02:40:03] <SWPadnos> well - making a CNC machine for <$500 is also wrong, but who am I t oargue?
[02:40:06] <A-L-P-H-A> actually, I think that would really neat.
[02:40:12] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A only if you put you hand on the table!
[02:40:15] <SWPadnos> Duplo - they're bigger
[02:40:16] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, you're SWPadnos. :)
[02:40:26] <SWPadnos> OK - no argument here
[02:40:57] <SWPadnos> but - how do you know I'm not my wife? She's also SWPadnos
[02:41:37] <A-L-P-H-A> I can see it happening with a shit used mill, and used steppers, with DIY drivers.
[02:41:42] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, do you have a penis?
[02:41:51] <SWPadnos> yes - 3 pounds
[02:41:59] <A-L-P-H-A> so then you're SWPadnos.
[02:42:04] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: does your husband have a penis?
[02:42:13] <A-L-P-H-A> hahahahhahahahahhaha
[02:42:16] <A-L-P-H-A> lol
[02:42:16] <SWPadnos> ha - that's the question
[02:42:27] <LawrenceG> one in the hand is worth 2 in the bush!
[02:42:29] <SWPadnos> hold on - let me get my wife to answer that
[02:42:42] <SWPadnos> I'd rather have one in the bush than in two hands
[02:42:44] <pfred1> does she wear the pants?
[02:42:53] <Jymmm> but is SWPadnos' wife the man or woman of the house?
[02:42:58] <SWPadnos> indeed
[02:43:18] <pfred1> SWMBO
[02:43:30] <Jymmm> s/O/I/
[02:43:30] <SWPadnos> sometimes
[02:43:35] <SWPadnos> SWMBOMOT
[02:43:40] <SWPadnos> SWMBOMOTT
[02:44:02] <SWPadnos> SWPMBO - so shut up
[02:45:42] <A-L-P-H-A> I seriously wonder how much money I put into CNC stuff.
[02:45:53] <Jymmm> 400 so far
[02:46:01] <A-L-P-H-A> heh.
[02:46:21] <SWPadnos> I was just adding that stuff up - it's scary
[02:46:31] <A-L-P-H-A> I've spent probably $6K so far... probably more... but I bought out a shop for DIRT cheap... so that's how I've spent so little.
[02:47:15] <SWPadnos> yeah - I had expected to spend around $6k or so - it's up to around $11k as of the end of last year
[02:47:38] <SWPadnos> and probably another 1 or 2 this year
[02:47:40] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, but I've got TWO cnc machines!
[02:47:40] <Jymmm> SWPadnos how much have you made back though?
[02:47:47] <SWPadnos> $0 back so far
[02:47:56] <SWPadnos> I haven't finished the CNC conversion yet
[02:47:59] <A-L-P-H-A> oh... I've probably made $2K so far.
[02:48:08] <A-L-P-H-A> from the products...
[02:48:11] <SWPadnos> I've got a big Johnson though
[02:48:19] <SWPadnos> (bandsaw)
[02:48:28] <A-L-P-H-A> www.lloydleung.com/gallery some photos.
[02:48:38] <Jymmm> SWPadnos tell your wife that when you have to go rent out your 3 lbs penis
[02:48:56] <SWPadnos> She knows
[02:49:02] <Jymmm> SWPadnos or your husband, who ever you are!
[02:49:21] <A-L-P-H-A> I've got a small bandsaw (5x7), mill 7x26, lathe 8x24 or so.
[02:49:49] <SWPadnos> Ah - I've got a big bandsaw (11x18), and a Bridgeport milling machine
[02:49:55] <SWPadnos> no lathe yet
[02:50:08] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, but I bought all that for $4.5K CDN.
[02:50:09] <pfred1> lathes are essential
[02:50:11] <Jymmm> I want all three, but no stinking room for them all
[02:50:11] <A-L-P-H-A> :D
[02:50:36] <Jymmm> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=37151
[02:50:49] <SWPadnos> I also went pretty wild with the measurement tools, so I have a surface plate, indicators, 0-6" micrometer set, 0-6" depth micrometer set, 0.0005"/ft level, etc.
[02:51:00] <A-L-P-H-A> + an air compressor + two bench grinders + 1.5ton arbor + drill press + end mills + lots of stock + two old laptops + two CNC drives...
[02:51:03] <pfred1> Jymmm do yourself a favor try to avoid harbor freight
[02:51:11] <A-L-P-H-A> umm... what the heck else did I get?
[02:51:38] <SWPadnos> I weould have bought one of those (they're the best deal for a small saw, including delivery), but the first thing I needed to cut was an 8x2 piece of aluminum for a motor mount
[02:51:40] <SWPadnos> oops
[02:51:45] <Jymmm> pfred1: I know I should, but I just can't
[02:52:11] <Jymmm> pfred1 $180 for a bandsaw like that sure beats a hacksaw
[02:52:43] <SWPadnos> Most HF tools are pretty crappy, but as long as you realize you're not getting the same quality for the lower price, it's OK
[02:52:43] <pfred1> Jymmm yeah their 4x6 bandsaw is OK I have one
[02:53:06] <pfred1> the thing is if you look around you can get used cheaper
[02:53:30] <Jymmm> pfred1 what, ebay?
[02:53:30] <SWPadnos> A-L-P-H-A: need to get rid of a bench grinder?
[02:53:41] <pfred1> nah they're all crooks on ebay
[02:53:43] <SWPadnos> actually, used often ends up being more expensive due to shipping
[02:53:52] <SWPadnos> unless you can find a local used piece
[02:53:58] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, I'm in CANADA... if you want to for the shipping, I've got no issue.
[02:53:59] <gezr> I have a hack saw :)
[02:54:06] <SWPadnos> (which is nearly impossible where I live)
[02:54:06] <pfred1> if someone puts something up on ebay they think they have something and they want top dollar for it
[02:54:15] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm gonna make a pully for it, and use it as a spindle motor.
[02:54:20] <SWPadnos> A-L-P-H-A: I can drive over - I'll buy you a waffle
[02:54:35] <SWPadnos> (no oysters though - too rich for my blood these days)
[02:54:42] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, to Toronto? sure.
[02:54:43] <A-L-P-H-A> damn.
[02:54:52] <A-L-P-H-A> how about CRAB at the same place?
[02:54:52] <SWPadnos> heh - Nine of Cups, not Rodneys
[02:54:56] <A-L-P-H-A> damn.
[02:55:07] <Jymmm> pfred1 here's the thing, if I buy used and it's fubar'ed I'm stuck with it, if I buy HF, there's at least a warranty AND a return policy if it's not what I expected to be.
[02:55:22] <SWPadnos> well - there is the second-best place down the street (can't remember the name)
[02:55:35] <pfred1> Jymmm have you returned stuff to them or dealt with them?
[02:55:50] <Jymmm> pfred1 a couple of small items.
[02:56:03] <Jymmm> pfred1 there's a store locally
[02:56:19] <pfred1> Jymmm i bought a hydraulic hose off of them and it didn't come with a chuck after a while i just gave up with them
[02:56:23] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.fast-autos.net/pontiac/pontiacsolstice.html tell me that isn't a sexy car. :D thinking about it.
[02:56:26] <SWPadnos> for anything big and inexpensive, you shouldn't count on that - the shipping will eat up any refund you might get
[02:56:48] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: That's why you ALWAYS pay using a credit card =)
[02:57:07] <SWPadnos> sure - but if you receive it, they did their job
[02:57:20] <Jymmm> SWPadnos not necessarily
[02:57:34] <SWPadnos> you can still return it, but the policy almost always says that you pay the return freight
[02:57:57] <Jymmm> SWPadnos if they ship a broken item and give you slack about it, call the CC company and tell them, they'll reverse the charges and investingate.
[02:58:18] <SWPadnos> so they refund your charge in full, but you had to schlep a 100-pound behemoth to UPS and pay for the shipment back to them
[02:58:44] <SWPadnos> sure - broken I can understand, but "I decided I don't like it" is a different story
[02:58:52] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I'd ask them to send a calltag and I'll pay the cost I originally paid.
[02:59:05] <pfred1> or it's a total piece of crap and doesn't work
[02:59:07] <Jymmm> get the shipping under their acnt
[02:59:24] <SWPadnos> well - that can work
[02:59:34] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: It's easy to say "Didn't work as advertised"
[02:59:48] <Jymmm> acting ignorant can have it's advantages.
[03:00:07] <SWPadnos> heh - I'm a bad actor (especially at being ignorant)
[03:00:08] <pfred1> Jymmm if there's one thing I have learned in life anything wirthwhile doing is NEVER easy!
[03:00:36] <Jymmm> SWPadnos just say as little as possib;e, that'll get you 90% there.
[03:00:45] <SWPadnos> mmm
[03:00:54] <Jymmm> pfred1 I'm only talking exceptional cases.
[03:01:25] <pfred1> I bought a lot off of Harbor and most of it I wish i had the money back today
[03:01:34] <Jymmm> we know the tolereances on HF are way out of line, but it's not stated in their manual.
[03:01:37] <pfred1> it all seemed like good deals at the time
[03:02:16] <pfred1> good money after bad
[03:02:17] <Jymmm> It's easy to call the CC Co and say "It's really bad, the thing wobbles all over the place".
[03:02:28] <Jymmm> and they won't fix it.
[03:02:42] <Jymmm> well wobble to us is .010" =)
[03:03:23] <Jymmm> the operator will think like 4" wobble
[03:06:10] <SWPadnos> gotta run gouy, see you later
[03:06:16] <SWPadnos> guys, I mean
[03:06:17] <Jymmm> hasta!
[03:06:34] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[03:11:41] <Jymmm> enco has acme rod on sale, I just wish I had a way to turn the ends =(
[03:12:09] <pfred1> make a cylindrical grinder
[03:12:16] <Jymmm> how?
[03:13:14] <pfred1> you just have two grinding wheels as far apart as what you want the finished diameter to be when it falls through it's done
[03:14:40] <Jymmm> i sirta get it, but I don't
[03:14:43] <pfred1> heck you could probbaly not even have to power the second wheel just let it freewheel
[03:14:44] <Jymmm> sorta
[03:14:56] <pfred1> the one grinder will drive the stock
[03:15:03] <pfred1> but it never drives it to full speed :)
[03:15:11] <Jymmm> rotate and grinding the stock at the same time?
[03:15:21] <pfred1> yup that's how cylindrical grinding works
[03:15:50] <Jymmm> when you say grinder, I'm thinking bench grinder.
[03:15:54] <gezr> you need 3 points to centerless grind, grinding wheel, workrest, and regulating wheel
[03:15:56] <pfred1> that'd work
[03:16:33] <pfred1> gezr yeah but it is pretty simple to setup to get good results
[03:16:50] <gezr> pfred1 : yeah, if everything is good and fixed position
[03:17:09] <gezr> and no fingers get to play down there
[03:17:21] <pfred1> a rotating grinding wheel just does some amazing stuff
[03:17:52] <gezr> ive ran a centerless for many a hours
[03:18:14] <pfred1> I make custom washers on nails or what have you
[03:18:28] <pfred1> just get it onto that wheel it whips it down!
[03:18:29] <gezr> then after I left that shop I guess they got in a nice big twin grip one, oh its sweet
[03:19:00] <gezr> who cant turn the end of threaded rod?
[03:19:00] <EldonB46> Jymmm, do you have a URL for enco, I need an acme rod and nut.
[03:19:14] <Jymmm> use-enco.com
[03:19:15] <gezr> www.useenco.com I think is there site
[03:19:20] <gezr> oh yeah the dash
[03:19:42] <pfred1> Jymmm yeah if you do a little setup I'm sure you can get acceptable results for turning down the end of a rod
[03:19:51] <EldonB46> tks
[03:19:58] <pfred1> amaze your friends kinds of results
[03:20:07] <Jymmm> EldonB46: $3.49 for 1/2-10 @ 3'
[03:20:27] <gezr> Jymmm : I can turn a few ends for you if you want
[03:20:45] <Jymmm> gezr I appreciate it, but I think the shipping would kill me
[03:20:59] <gezr> just have the rods shipped to me and Illship them to you
[03:21:10] <gezr> how many are you talking about?
[03:21:33] <Jymmm> gezr 600
[03:21:39] <Jymmm> Just Kidding =)
[03:21:58] <gezr> heh
[03:22:10] <gezr> if you need a few done, I dont mind doing it
[03:22:21] <Jymmm> I like the grinding idea, but I can't figure out the stock holder so it's level.
[03:22:41] <pfred1> Jymmm use a level?
[03:22:54] <Jymmm> heh, I mean as it's grinding
[03:23:07] <pfred1> the grinding wheel sort of sucks the stock to it
[03:23:47] <pfred1> heck you could probably lay it in a piece of angle iron
[03:23:51] <gezr> )0(
[03:24:30] <gezr> goodnight yall
[03:24:36] <pfred1> but setting it up in bearings would be the ideal
[03:25:19] <Jymmm> G'Night gezr
[03:25:25] <Jymmm> G'Night gezr - and thanks for the offer.
[03:25:33] <pfred1> Jymmm grinding can be sort of magical
[03:27:24] <A-L-P-H-A> what'd gezr offer?
[03:27:39] <pfred1> to grind down the ends of some acme rods
[03:27:43] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A your ass on a platter
[03:27:59] <Jymmm> (couldn't resist)
[03:28:08] <A-L-P-H-A> pfred1... oh.
[03:28:23] <Jymmm> ok, so get two bench grinders and align them face to face?
[03:29:23] <Jymmm> but how do you prevent the stock from sliding all over the place?
[03:29:41] <pfred1> well a true centerless grinder uses 2 grinding wheels but it'd probably work with any idler
[03:30:07] <pfred1> you'd have to have something to thrust it in place
[03:30:42] <pfred1> any piece of scrap
[03:30:47] <Jymmm> OH! so I'm feeding the stock into the grinding wheel like I would a planer?
[03:31:02] <pfred1> no you're letting it run along the wheel
[03:31:18] <pfred1> the wheel's friction makes the work turn
[03:31:23] <Jymmm> the face or the side of the wheel?
[03:31:30] <pfred1> but the work never keeps up with the wheel so it gets ground down
[03:31:36] <pfred1> the face
[03:31:55] <pfred1> centerless grinding is magic
[03:32:18] <pfred1> it's one of those htings that just works
[03:32:20] <Jymmm> so (lets say ) I make the wheels almost touch each other, I lay the stock on between the wheel?
[03:32:49] <pfred1> well like gezr said you should have a rest under it
[03:32:53] <Jymmm> (ascii art aint gonna help here)
[03:33:01] <pfred1> yeah wait a sec
[03:33:08] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, why not just turn them? damn... you're making a $500 machine... how much accuracy do you honestly expect?
[03:33:20] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A turn them using what?
[03:33:35] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, oh... I thought you were using a lathe with grinders.
[03:33:55] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: No lathe availabel, thus the delima
[03:35:28] <pfred1> Jymmm
[03:35:44] <pfred1> heh it looks like a guy with funny glasses on
[03:36:04] <Jymmm> it does, dont it =)
[03:36:12] <A-L-P-H-A> heh
[03:36:36] <A-L-P-H-A> so at the things spinning in CW and CCW (left, right)
[03:36:39] <pfred1> but if just one of those big circles was a grinding wheel it'd rip down that piece in the middle
[03:37:01] <pfred1> the one could just be an idler a commercial centerless grinder they're both grinding wheels time is money
[03:37:07] <Jymmm> ok, if theres a tool rest, what height would I set that too?
[03:37:20] <pfred1> above the centerline of the grinder
[03:37:28] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, if you intend on making a production run of these for the future... why not just invest in some proper tools?
[03:37:34] <pfred1> don't want the piece ot suck through
[03:37:57] <pfred1> tho when they make threaded rod I think they just let the stuff fall through
[03:38:02] <pfred1> when it falls through it's done
[03:38:35] <A-L-P-H-A> well... I do machining, but I charge a modest $10/end. someone paid me $60 to machine 3 ends...
[03:38:40] <Jymmm> Now, Do I need fences to the stock doesn't keep feeding itelf thru?
[03:38:46] <pfred1> before you go into production yo ustill need a prototype
[03:38:59] <A-L-P-H-A> err 3 rods... to turn 12.7mm to 6mm.
[03:40:53] <pfred1> Jymmm just setup a sloppy rig with some scrap you have to see if you like it and if you think you can achieve the accuracy and control you need
[03:42:17] <pfred1> all i know is i love to let stuff rip on grinding wheels
[03:42:40] <Jymmm> pfred1 are you using striaght bench grinder wheels and stuff like that?
[03:42:48] <pfred1> yeah
[03:42:54] <pfred1> I don't have anything else
[03:42:59] <Jymmm> ok, fair enough =)
[03:43:18] <pfred1> I'd get a surface grinder long before I'd get a centerless grinder
[03:43:26] <pfred1> someday ...
[03:43:37] <pfred1> surface grinders are bad assed!
[03:43:42] <pfred1> and yo ucan't fake those!
[03:44:15] <Jymmm> heh
[03:44:22] <A-L-P-H-A> surface grinders go for cheap localy at auctions.
[03:44:22] <pfred1> be the bandmaster
[03:44:46] <A-L-P-H-A> just moving them would probably cost more than the machine itself. :/
[03:44:48] <pfred1> I used to run manual surface grinders
[03:44:55] <Jymmm> If I could find those dumb insert bearing I wouldn't need to.
[03:45:05] <pfred1> A-L-P-H-A call a towing service that has a flatbed they're reasonable
[03:45:15] <pfred1> and the guys on them trucks are nuts they'll get it moved
[03:45:21] <A-L-P-H-A> pfred1, I don't even know how to use them... could you CNC a manual one?
[03:45:32] <pfred1> I doubt it
[03:45:35] <pfred1> grinding is feel
[03:45:48] <pfred1> CNC isn't big on feel feedback usually
[03:45:57] <A-L-P-H-A> light passes... just to do more passes.
[03:46:18] <pfred1> once i got a dresser I was rebuilding dead on but it was just dumb luck
[03:46:25] <Jymmm> girls who wear glasses have really tight asses!
[03:46:30] <pfred1> .0005 feeds
[03:47:27] <A-L-P-H-A> pfred1... yeah...? could you still use one to do that?
[03:47:39] <A-L-P-H-A> err
[03:48:05] <A-L-P-H-A> pfred1, so... why couldn't you still CNC it?
[03:48:12] <pfred1> having run a surface grinder I can't imagine how one could be CNCed but I don't have that much imagination I guess
[03:48:23] <pfred1> well you're constantly dressing the wheel
[03:48:27] <pfred1> so there's no reference
[03:48:41] <pfred1> you have to look and listen to come into contact
[03:48:59] <Jymmm> microphone cnc
[03:49:02] <Jymmm> feedback
[03:49:08] <A-L-P-H-A> how do CNC surface grinders work then?
[03:49:15] <pfred1> that the appearance is important
[03:49:21] <pfred1> I don't know
[03:49:25] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... I'll figure that out later...
[03:50:06] <pfred1> I suppose you could make a machine to do it but I still don't think union machinists are so expensive as to make it worthwhile
[03:50:33] <pfred1> grinding is the pinnacle of toolmaking
[03:51:03] <pfred1> the place where i worked they tried to make a CNC grinding wheel dresser it never happened
[03:51:15] <Jymmm> dresser?
[03:51:20] <pfred1> sure
[03:51:28] <Jymmm> * Jymmm dont think that anythign todo with clothes.
[03:51:41] <pfred1> I worked for J&S Tool the inventers of Fluid Motion Grinding Wheel Dressers
[03:51:44] <A-L-P-H-A> pfred1... how often to you have to dress the wheel?
[03:52:08] <pfred1> whenever you mount a wheel or when the surface starts to glaze
[03:52:11] <Jymmm> dress a wheel == get rid of gunkies?
[03:52:22] <pfred1> true it up too
[03:52:28] <nevyn> Jymmm: make it all square.
[03:52:30] <pfred1> we'd dress a lot
[03:52:43] <Jymmm> ah,
[03:52:45] <A-L-P-H-A> wouldn't coolant flush away the gunk?
[03:52:51] <pfred1> nevyn heh our dressers could dress a wheel to any radius or angle too!
[03:53:07] <nevyn> that's cool
[03:53:16] <pfred1> yeah Henry wasa genius
[03:53:40] <pfred1> his dresser I don't think anyone fully understood it
[03:54:19] <pfred1> not even him!
[03:55:13] <Jymmm> I dont think you mean one of these http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0001K9S5M.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
[03:55:23] <pfred1> no
[03:55:33] <pfred1> I try to find a pic of one
[03:55:48] <pfred1> don't evne waste your time with a star dresser
[03:55:56] <pfred1> use industrial diamonds
[03:57:22] <nevyn> for a home shop grinding wheel it's fine.
[03:57:53] <pfred1> you can get industrial diamonds pretty cheap
[03:58:11] <pfred1> hey they're still in business?
[03:58:16] <pfred1> http://www.jstoolco.com/wheel_drssr/wheel.htm
[03:58:24] <pfred1> that's a wheel dresser
[03:59:06] <Jymmm> whats something like that cost?
[03:59:30] <pfred1> heh you don't want to know!
[03:59:47] <pfred1> back when I worked with them the little one went for like $4,700
[03:59:54] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[04:00:02] <pfred1> just rebuilding one was $600
[04:00:34] <pfred1> I guess they stopped making their downholding clamps
[04:00:41] <pfred1> the chinese put them out of business
[04:02:50] <pfred1> Workholding clamps by J&S Tool can't be beat when it comes to power holding, low profile design, and dependability.
[04:03:02] <pfred1> yeah then how come the clamps don't have their own webpage?
[04:03:40] <pfred1> I should have grabbed tons of those clamps before i left
[04:04:09] <Jymmm> heh
[04:04:17] <pfred1> man they're like candy
[04:04:26] <pfred1> can never have enough!
[04:04:35] <Jymmm> I thought that was sex
[04:04:41] <Jymmm> clamp sex ?
[04:04:48] <pfred1> well how much sex can you have?
[04:04:59] <Jymmm> never enough
[04:05:07] <pfred1> hmmm
[04:05:21] <Jymmm> might need a couple IV's but....
[04:05:31] <pfred1> for me it's the chafing
[04:05:39] <pfred1> things get raw after a while
[04:06:08] <Jymmm> yeah, females do tend to dry up a bit.
[04:06:40] <pfred1> I can't believe these guys are still in business
[04:06:46] <Jymmm> * Jymmm just had this dry female conversation yesterday
[04:06:54] <Jymmm> lol
[04:08:39] <pfred1> wow here's a way to wear out your carbide faced micrometers! http://www.jstoolco.com/wheel_drssr/instructions.htm
[04:17:58] <Jymmm> eh, time for Coach Carter now =)
[05:30:01] <cnc_wright> * cnc_wright crickets chirping
[05:30:33] <Jymmm> * Jymmm grabs the can of RAID!
[05:30:53] <cnc_wright> So someone is still awake
[05:31:06] <Jymmm> it's 2141 here.
[05:31:23] <cnc_wright> me too
[05:31:32] <Jymmm> where's that?
[05:31:44] <cnc_wright> Near Portland, OR
[05:31:54] <Jymmm> Ah, ok. San Jose Calif here
[05:32:11] <A-L-P-H-A> Time: 00:42:37 -0500 GMT, Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 2 (5.1 - 2600), AMD XP 2800+ running at (1-AMD , 2123MHz, 512KB (14% Load)), DDR400 RAM Usage: 645/1024MB (62.99%), C: 48.55gb of 75.42gb free, D: 0gb of 0gb free, N: 84.88gb of 372.62gb free, Current Uptime: 4hrs 28mins 35secs, Record Uptime: 3wks 12hrs 48mins 50secs, 3 Samsung 19" flat monitors (1 Trinitron, 2 CRT).
[05:32:29] <A-L-P-H-A> TORONTO! Center of the world. :)
[05:32:47] <Jymmm> TORONTO! Center of Hell
[05:33:05] <cnc_wright> I got a new mobo and a celeron 2.4ghz today and rebuilt the linux box for the nth time
[05:33:11] <cnc_wright> Just testing it out
[05:33:12] <A-L-P-H-A> you're just affraid of our liberal freedoms.
[05:33:34] <A-L-P-H-A> celery chips... :( I've never liked them.
[05:33:38] <cnc_wright> Much better than the old PII 450
[05:33:41] <Jymmm> Toronto has nice lil parks all over the place, that I like.
[05:33:53] <A-L-P-H-A> green space is awesome here.
[05:34:12] <A-L-P-H-A> every neighbourhood has one withing 5 minutes walking distance.
[05:34:16] <A-L-P-H-A> love that.
[05:34:24] <Jymmm> and CN Tower is cool.
[05:34:31] <A-L-P-H-A> of not 5 minutes walking, 5 minutes driving.
[05:34:40] <A-L-P-H-A> I hate parking though... it's an arm and a leg for clubbing.
[05:35:59] <Jymmm> does 1/2-10 acme seem too tight a thread for a cnc router?
[05:36:56] <A-L-P-H-A> no.
[05:37:02] <cnc_wright> By tight do you mean thread pitch?
[05:37:10] <Jymmm> cnc_wright yeah
[05:38:04] <cnc_wright> I don't have a feel for this stuff yet but I would think it depends a little on how fast you can spin the screw.
[05:39:08] <Jymmm> ditto
[05:39:32] <cnc_wright> 10 tpi = .1 lead right?
[05:39:52] <Jymmm> I would suspect so.
[05:40:00] <A-L-P-H-A> cnc_wright, inverse of TPI = lead.
[05:41:17] <cnc_wright> the current screws on my mill are .2" lead
[05:41:42] <cnc_wright> 5 turns to go 1 inch
[05:42:29] <A-L-P-H-A> cnc_wright, yep.
[05:43:59] <cnc_wright> I made up spreadsheet where I could tweak variables like screw rpm and thread pitch.
[05:44:25] <cnc_wright> using that you can figure out your movement speeds and forces if you really get into it.
[05:45:58] <A-L-P-H-A> what's probably more important is feedrate, DOC. :)
[05:46:31] <Jymmm> I can get 5/8-6 acme rod
[05:46:40] <Jymmm> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=621
[05:48:47] <cnc_wright> I have to get up at 0500...good night...
[05:48:55] <Jymmm> G'Night
[05:49:54] <Jymmm> but wouldn't you know it, they dont have 5-8-6 acme taps
[05:50:00] <Jymmm> 5/8-6
[07:15:47] <Jymmm> Evening!
[07:15:49] <anonimasu> hello
[07:17:04] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[07:17:07] <anonimasu> it's morning here
[07:17:09] <Jymmm> * Jymmm REALLY needs to rebuild this computer, sigh
[07:18:02] <anonimasu> I am looking for a sensible mav_acceleration setting
[07:18:14] <Jymmm> 0
[07:18:19] <Jymmm> * Jymmm shurgs
[07:18:32] <anonimasu> yeah that's a good setting.
[07:22:06] <anonimasu> but I doubt the machine will move.
[07:22:28] <Jymmm> i dont have any idea what that parameter is. Hense 0
[07:25:12] <anonimasu> the reason that I wonder is because the machine gets following errors if you increase it too much
[07:27:11] <anonimasu> cant seem to get the machine to move over 1500mm/min
[09:20:52] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi folks. Apologies for the problems; we've lost a hub and had to rehub. We're doing analysis now.
[09:39:13] <lilo> [Global Notice] That was a quick network latency test. Thanks all.
[11:21:23] <anonimasu> hehllo
[11:21:27] <anonimasu> err hi.
[12:00:54] <robin_sz> 'ello
[12:45:49] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/qemccommand.cc: File changed. New revision:qemcstatus.cc