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[00:00:15] <les> you ought to see the 4 mm or so square copper wire that miller uses...
[00:00:49] <les> it's not winding...it's bending
[00:01:37] <gezr> les : I dont think so
[00:02:03] <les> heh
[00:02:13] <gezr> les : I think miller uses aluminum now
[00:02:23] <les> some
[00:02:35] <Jymmm> aluminum in magnetics? ew
[00:02:49] <robin_z> sure
[00:02:54] <robin_z> why not?
[00:03:09] <Jymmm> aluminum wire?
[00:03:16] <robin_z> yes
[00:03:30] <robin_z> very very common
[00:03:39] <les> specific conductivity and price/ resistivity are the considerations
[00:03:42] <Jymmm> that just seem totally wrong.
[00:03:45] <les> and heat
[00:03:48] <pfred1> when they made the magnetic seperators for U235 for the bomb they used silver
[00:04:04] <pfred1> about 15,000 pounds
[00:04:25] <Jymmm> ironically silver I can understand, but not aluminum.
[00:04:29] <robin_z> its probably one of the most commonly used materials for wire .. on a volume-used basis
[00:04:44] <robin_z> never seen power cables on pylons?
[00:04:47] <Jymmm> wasn't there a big fire safety issue with aluminim ?
[00:04:50] <pfred1> aluminum wiring = higher homeowner's insurance rates
[00:04:59] <pfred1> it's illegal
[00:05:13] <robin_z> it is probably the ONLY material used on pylons
[00:05:23] <pfred1> yeah let it burn out there
[00:05:26] <Jymmm> robin_z: Yes, but that's hugh voltage > 10KV
[00:05:33] <robin_z> and?
[00:05:44] <robin_z> aluminium doesnt burn ..
[00:05:47] <robin_z> well it does
[00:05:57] <robin_z> but not as easily as steel
[00:06:07] <robin_z> MUCH harder to light.
[00:06:08] <les> it is popula wirh audio voice coils
[00:06:15] <les> popular
[00:06:18] <Jymmm> les: your kidding me?
[00:06:19] <robin_z> yeah
[00:06:21] <pfred1> les weight is a factor there
[00:06:27] <Jymmm> oh
[00:06:36] <robin_z> welding transformers use it a lot
[00:06:39] <pfred1> lighter coil more responsive driver
[00:06:54] <gezr> in a transformer, the short think windings are just as effective as the copper counter part, there is some loss but not enough. high wires that are aluminum are much more effectively maintained, over the heavyer steel or copper alternatives
[00:06:55] <les> yes mass/resistivity
[00:06:58] <Jymmm> pfred1 that makes sense, no real power in there.
[00:07:13] <Jymmm> what abotu thermal expansion?
[00:07:16] <robin_z> eh?
[00:07:21] <robin_z> no real power?
[00:07:25] <les> I have some altec VOT horns in the music room I am messing with
[00:07:26] <Jymmm> in a voice coil
[00:07:31] <pfred1> Jymmm tell it to the guy with 1200 watt sub system
[00:07:36] <robin_z> * robin_z falls off his chair
[00:07:43] <les> edge wound aluminum ribbon
[00:08:07] <les> and they were designed in...
[00:08:11] <les> 1936.
[00:08:53] <les> quite a kick... 111 dba 1 meter with 1 watt
[00:09:12] <robin_z> id think in power density terms, a voice coil takes some beating
[00:09:25] <pfred1> mine do
[00:09:29] <robin_z> heh:)
[00:09:35] <Jymmm> but nothing like a power xfmr
[00:09:39] <les> well it is pretty mature technology
[00:10:04] <les> My Mccauley LF units are good to 600 rms
[00:10:18] <les> the voice coils are 4" diameter
[00:10:39] <les> I used voice coils for some very fast servo cnc stuff
[00:10:40] <Jymmm> les: you have a music room, or a music cathereral?
[00:10:43] <les> worked well
[00:10:47] <pfred1> les you watch a TV show called Mythbusters?
[00:10:47] <Jymmm> (sp)
[00:10:56] <gezr> I love that show
[00:11:07] <pfred1> gezr the brown note!
[00:11:09] <les> Jymmm: I used to design audio gear foe a living.
[00:11:14] <pfred1> now that was a hi-fi setup
[00:11:16] <gezr> pfred1 : hahaha,
[00:11:24] <les> for haha
[00:11:38] <les> Shure Brotheres INC
[00:11:56] <les> I still like to do audio stuff
[00:12:02] <pfred1> me too
[00:12:25] <les> I was an audio r&d engineer at shure
[00:12:51] <pfred1> made turntable cartridges did you?
[00:13:10] <les> so yes I have about 60 cubic feet of speaker volume in that room
[00:13:35] <les> Pfred: yes...I designed the Shure ML series
[00:13:45] <pfred1> I think I have heard of seen those
[00:13:55] <les> first job out of school
[00:13:58] <pfred1> well bbiab on my other box going downstairs for a few
[00:14:25] <les> I used beryllium parts
[00:14:44] <les> That metal has the highest specific stiffness of all
[00:15:04] <les> cantelever resonance was 50k Hz
[00:15:41] <les> VERY hard to form though
[00:17:54] <les> great stuff though
[00:18:04] <les> would be great for machine tools
[00:18:16] <les> expensive and toxic though.
[00:18:26] <pfred1> down in my dungeon lab
[00:18:32] <les> cool
[00:18:41] <pfred1> downright chilly in fact
[00:19:02] <les> basements usually stay kinda warm
[00:19:21] <pfred1> yeah this one's cold in the winter and hot in the summer
[00:19:21] <les> I do not have a basement here
[00:19:28] <les> hmm
[00:19:42] <pfred1> the worst of both worlds oh it takes on water too
[00:20:02] <les> oh I had several pumps in mine in Chicago
[00:20:15] <robin_z> Jymmm: no, a loudspeaker voice coil has MUCH higher power density than a power transformer
[00:20:22] <les> including 12v battery ones and gas
[00:20:41] <les> robin: yes
[00:21:09] <les> both work at about 1.5 Tesla..but the voice coil is much lighter
[00:21:40] <les> Remember that 100g cnc thing I made?
[00:21:50] <les> used 4" voice coils
[00:22:12] <les> from bass guitar speakers.
[00:22:17] <robin_z> id have put the flux density in a speaker voice coil gap, way higher than a steel power txfmr core
[00:22:38] <les> They could push about 200 Newtons
[00:22:49] <robin_z> coo
[00:22:52] <robin_z> anyway
[00:23:04] <les> Robin: Iron saturates at about 2 Tesla
[00:23:06] <robin_z> think of a 1kw audio amp ...
[00:23:11] <les> so that is about it
[00:23:24] <les> I have a few...
[00:23:25] <robin_z> you have that power txfmr .. volume several tens of cubic inches
[00:23:43] <les> I have some I can't pick up
[00:24:02] <robin_z> 60% of that power end up in a sub-millimetre thin voice coil
[00:24:10] <les> yup
[00:24:14] <robin_z> volume in tenths of a cu in
[00:24:35] <robin_z> that would put power density (not flux density) at several hundred times ??
[00:25:05] <les> well I got the 100 g from
[00:25:16] <les> 100 gram moving mass
[00:25:35] <robin_z> wow ...
[00:25:53] <les> and actually only 100 N
[00:26:21] <robin_z> yep
[00:26:22] <les> 980 m/sec^2 right?
[00:26:28] <les> 100g.
[00:26:35] <robin_z> well, no .. 1000msec^c
[00:26:49] <les> but I measured as much as 200N
[00:26:56] <robin_z> right
[00:26:57] <les> peak
[00:27:02] <robin_z> awesome
[00:27:14] <robin_z> this was a destruction tester for something?
[00:27:15] <les> I gave it to a university.
[00:27:59] <les> It was a genetic algorithm thing to solve a process problem.
[00:28:14] <robin_z> you and your maths again :)
[00:28:20] <les> I think they are using it for some laser stuff now.
[00:28:25] <les> not sure what
[00:28:36] <les> moving mirrors I guess
[00:28:45] <robin_z> so .. it was a 100g mass moved by a couple of voice coils
[00:28:59] <les> 3...for x, y and z
[00:29:06] <robin_z> wow
[00:29:08] <robin_z> funky
[00:29:14] <les> I used the biggest Arnold magnets
[00:29:22] <les> 120 oz
[00:29:29] <robin_z> was arnold pleased?
[00:29:55] <les> naw... They sell thousands of the 120 oz ring magnets
[00:30:07] <robin_z> what sort of throw did you get?
[00:30:17] <les> xmax was one inch
[00:30:39] <robin_z> at 100 g, thats quite amazing
[00:30:47] <robin_z> good feedback loop?
[00:30:51] <les> same as my mccauleys in the music room
[00:31:04] <les> they use the 120 Arnold magnet too
[00:31:16] <robin_z> so, when the loop is closed, its like totally solid
[00:31:20] <les> I used US digital encoders
[00:31:22] <les> linear
[00:31:39] <les> 10,000 lines as I recall
[00:31:58] <robin_z> at 100 g wour pid loop needs to be very quick
[00:32:05] <les> yes
[00:32:16] <les> I used voltage mode
[00:32:20] <robin_z> 10khz or better
[00:32:35] <les> not sure...it was fast though
[00:32:45] <les> bandwidth was around there
[00:32:56] <robin_z> yeah, sounds fun
[00:33:12] <les> I spent 50,000 on it.
[00:33:17] <robin_z> did you play music into it ?
[00:33:24] <les> never did
[00:33:28] <robin_z> shame :)
[00:33:30] <les> but should have
[00:33:51] <robin_z> indeed
[00:33:55] <les> I have pretty good bandwidth on the cnc too
[00:34:01] <robin_z> right, bedtime for me
[00:34:03] <les> a subwoofer?
[00:34:05] <robin_z> its 1am
[00:34:12] <les> yeah get to bed
[00:34:20] <robin_z> yeah, cu later
[00:34:26] <les> bye
[00:35:10] <pfred1> man this transformer is like bass ackwards
[00:35:35] <pfred1> you get higher voltage out of it than you put into it
[00:39:17] <les> he switch the leads
[00:39:58] <pfred1> come on over and be ny guest I'll just go outside for a breath of fresh air when you energize it
[00:40:11] <les> haha
[00:40:31] <les> I always power up big stuff with a variac slowly
[00:40:38] <pfred1> nah this one with the finer wire is obviously the primary here
[00:41:04] <pfred1> many more windings much finer wires
[00:41:31] <gezr> asny of you use 7474s or 7486s?
[00:41:32] <les> don't know much about them...never messed with microwve parts
[00:41:50] <pfred1> well it's beefy I can tell you that
[00:41:53] <gezr> pfred1 : power levels
[00:42:15] <pfred1> yeah I'm on the lowest power level now
[00:42:24] <les> I know ther are a bunch of web sites about using Microwave transformers for stuff
[00:42:49] <pfred1> yeah i read a lot of them they really don't tell me as much as I'd like
[00:43:10] <pfred1> I'll let you know as long as I don't straighten my hair out over this here
[00:43:20] <les> haha
[00:44:17] <les> I got a little tickle today from these stepper est boxes
[00:44:32] <les> touched the power switch
[00:44:35] <gezr> did you lick it to make sure?
[00:44:35] <les> 120
[00:44:42] <les> hands were dry
[00:44:48] <les> so just a tickle
[00:44:50] <gezr> never dry
[00:45:09] <gezr> I wish I had more brains
[00:45:18] <les> heh me too
[00:45:39] <les> we could conquer the universe and stuff
[00:46:20] <gezr> accuacly, hey
[00:46:39] <gezr> if any of you were to win an amnount that would leave you with 2 million minimum after tax
[00:46:48] <gezr> would you buy comercial machines to build emc machines?
[00:47:13] <les> hmm good question to ponder
[00:47:23] <gezr> I would love to do that
[00:47:31] <les> I woul dsecure most of it
[00:47:36] <les> secure
[00:47:57] <les> and yes persue open source engineering things
[00:48:02] <gezr> well absolutely, but a good mill and lathe and a grinder and a centerless, and a center grinder, wouldnt eat but about 500k
[00:48:18] <les> pursue
[00:48:40] <les> Well I was born to do one thing:
[00:48:44] <les> make stuff
[00:48:58] <les> I have known that since i can remember
[00:49:14] <gezr> les : does time overcome monetary issues?
[00:49:14] <les> so yeah I would do that
[00:49:50] <gezr> ive been nickle and dimming emc to death
[00:50:01] <gezr> ive learned a lot but I have nothing to really show
[00:50:44] <les> I don't know. I am in a strange situation. I made a lot of money as a corporate executive. I decided to start my own business and have basically starved until last year.
[00:50:56] <pfred1> this transformer deal works out maybe I can make some headway here
[00:51:05] <les> Now I am doing very well.
[00:51:33] <les> But I have a wealthy family so I am not greatly concerned.
[00:51:48] <les> So I can take risks.
[00:52:10] <les> Because they gave me a house and a lot of land.
[00:52:46] <gezr> time has the same effect
[00:52:47] <les> I guess I will be ok.
[00:53:27] <les> I am putting my newly earned money in the bank mostly.
[00:53:43] <les> I am pretty jaded about buying stuff.
[00:53:58] <les> I already have bought enough.
[00:54:11] <gezr> i have one of them disorders now, im glad I developed it, took some debt to develop
[00:54:22] <les> except for tools!
[00:54:54] <les> I am the worst tool junkie
[00:55:14] <gezr> gonna make that torque tester thing, ill buy stock and parts from the depot, then I need to weld the nut part that should be good
[00:55:27] <les> I don't aquire tools as a proper business decision
[00:55:37] <les> I just buy em cause I want em
[00:55:39] <les> haha
[00:56:01] <gezr> i can make myself sick over a simple wrench
[00:56:23] <les> I understand comepletely
[00:56:58] <gezr> and its not a matter of this or food
[00:57:07] <les> some of us were put on this earth TO MAKE STUFF
[00:57:20] <les> I think you may be of that ilk
[00:57:33] <gezr> I dont have an iron mine near by
[00:58:04] <gezr> yes, I am a Maker
[00:58:29] <pfred1> I think I was put here to brak stuff
[00:59:51] <pfred1> break even
[00:59:51] <pfred1> one of my mottos "They make it, I can break it!"
[00:59:51] <les> Things change a little when you have employees... you have to spend more time SELLING STUFF
[00:59:51] <les> so you and your employees get to continue MAKING STUFF
[01:00:16] <les> So I have to sell snake oil a little more and make stuff a little less
[01:00:25] <pfred1> anymore i am happier getting stuff broken then fixing it least if it breaks again I don't feel so responsible
[01:01:22] <les> often people that fix broken things make more than the ones that designed them.
[01:01:23] <gezr> pfred1 : the real question is, how long do you let the broken thing sit around till you have prepared to toss it out?
[01:01:56] <les> For me? forever practically haha
[01:02:02] <pfred1> gezr when I throw something out it's basically grindings or shavings
[01:02:21] <gezr> or is everytime you touch it to toss it out, you remember that inside there is a whatsitcalled you may need someday?
[01:02:47] <pfred1> I strip stuff for materials
[01:03:05] <gezr> i have a nice collection of someofthemthings and a bunch of whatwasthatthings and a few ohyeahthatwillworks
[01:03:07] <pfred1> PC I'm on now is a dumps pick it up special
[01:03:09] <les> Makes me think of my carbide cllection
[01:03:13] <les> dull tools
[01:03:27] <les> the sharpener has slowed that down
[01:03:38] <les> but I have a lot of carbide
[01:03:45] <pfred1> yeah I'd like to be able to sharpen tools
[01:03:51] <les> need to recycle that
[01:03:58] <les> $100/lb?
[01:04:06] <gezr> hazmat
[01:04:11] <gezr> cantgetsheet
[01:04:19] <gezr> they will pick it up for free though
[01:04:21] <les> crbide?
[01:04:27] <gezr> yep
[01:04:32] <pfred1> well it's off to the garage to whizzer this secondary coil off this beast
[01:04:34] <pfred1> bbiab
[01:04:37] <les> the cobalt binder ids the $$stuff
[01:04:39] <gezr> ive seen it sell for 25 bucks a coffee can
[01:04:48] <les> hmm
[01:04:57] <les> carbide is heavy
[01:05:04] <les> seems pretty cheap
[01:05:06] <gezr> only a few processing plants, sandvik will recycle it, but its hasmat
[01:05:14] <les> hmm
[01:05:33] <gezr> and cobalt is radioactive, watch that dust if your gonna fly
[01:06:17] <les> Well I have gone to throw it in the bin after 6 hrs, to getting 5 or so sharpenings out of it
[01:06:25] <gezr> I wish it was worth money to save and recycle, but its not that big of a thing, consumables
[01:06:56] <gezr> yet, I dont know anyone who cuts with carbide who doesnt save it
[01:07:16] <gezr> sandvik will send you a nice box
[01:07:23] <les> really
[01:08:17] <gezr> checking
[01:08:23] <les> Well I have reduced the cost of dulling tools to 1 or 2 $/hr so I am ok I think
[01:08:57] <les> sharpening is fast...a couple minutes if it is set up
[01:10:08] <gezr> http://www.coromant.sandvik.com/sandvik/0110/Internet/I-Kit1/se02672.nsf/GenerateTopFrameset?ReadForm&menu=&view=http%3A//www.coromant.sandvik.com/sandvik/0110/Internet/I-Kit1/se02673.nsf/Alldocs/About_Coromant*Sandvik_Coromant*Environment&banner=/sandvik/0110/Internet/I-Kit1/se02672.nsf/LookupAdm/BannerForm%3FOpenDocument
[01:10:15] <gezr> oh gowd, it didnt seem so large
[01:10:32] <gezr> google search for sandvik carbide recycling
[01:10:55] <les> checking
[01:12:06] <les> what I want to know is how much per pound of carbide
[01:12:26] <les> The stuff is heavier than lead
[01:16:07] <gezr> lead like aluminum and copper is easy to reclaim
[01:17:00] <gezr> found a place wanting to buy used carbide, minimum qty needed is 40klbs
[01:17:35] <les> have that soon I guess
[01:18:02] <les> I f things keep going like jan and feb very soon
[01:18:45] <gezr> ah found a price, 3.75 a lb
[01:18:59] <les> ??? seems really low
[01:19:02] <gezr> oh they need 60tons a mothn
[01:19:37] <gezr> http://africa.recycle.net/a/view/0180.html
[01:20:00] <les> hmm and I pay $57 for a 1/2" end mill when highh speed costs $15?
[01:20:05] <gezr> I was saying its not worth that mcuh
[01:20:32] <les> what is wrong with this picture
[01:20:36] <gezr> les : raw materials man I guess arnt much, but once they are sinterned and ground ouch
[01:20:57] <les> could it be the cost of diamond machining?
[01:21:02] <les> I think not
[01:21:07] <gezr> no GE made that so
[01:21:20] <les> my diamond wheels are holdind up well
[01:21:29] <les> cut carbide like butter
[01:22:09] <les> I have only dressed the 20 carat cup wheel once
[01:22:33] <gezr> I dont know why its so expensive to buy on one end, and then oh yeah, I know
[01:22:58] <gezr> its the fact they can grind a hss bit faster then a carbide blank on a 1million buck grinder
[01:23:14] <gezr> thats why
[01:23:30] <les> could be
[01:23:49] <les> but my first impression grinding carbide is...
[01:23:52] <gezr> they can freely form the rough shape of a hss endmill, but they use a solid carbide blank
[01:23:57] <les> that it is pretty easy
[01:24:40] <gezr> you cant take a big bite with a diamond on carbide, your not supposed to at least
[01:24:50] <gezr> it does grind well, but think about removing metal
[01:24:54] <les> I was really surprised at how god diamond cutd carbide
[01:25:08] <les> I do .0005 feeds
[01:25:21] <gezr> your not taking .005 feed though like you could on hss
[01:25:34] <les> no
[01:25:58] <gezr> thats the difference, and your working with a tool that already has a form, imagine having to grind the flutes as well as sharpen it
[01:26:11] <gezr> at .0005 a pass
[01:26:19] <les> but on end mills carbide or HSS usually .001 is enough to sharpen the flanks
[01:26:35] <les> but...carbide can be sintered to shape
[01:26:45] <gezr> near net I guess :)
[01:26:56] <les> I don't know if they do
[01:27:00] <les> I would
[01:27:11] <gezr> maybe not all types of carbide can be sintered
[01:27:33] <gezr> there is just an added cost to the carbide stuff i guess
[01:27:53] <les> I think it all is...tugstencarbide held together by a cobalt binder
[01:27:55] <gezr> diamond wheel compared to a ao wheel, they use the same grinding machines
[01:28:24] <gezr> yeah thats all it is
[01:28:24] <les> yeah diamond works fine onall my grinders
[01:28:53] <gezr> I really dont know,
[01:29:04] <gezr> there has to be an issue with the reuse of the carbide
[01:29:15] <les> I do not cut steel with diamond though... the steeldissolves it
[01:29:41] <les> I use norton 32 ceramic for steel
[01:29:42] <gezr> where have I heard that old rail road rails are something about reusing them or something
[01:30:03] <gezr> you know like some steels are worthless for recycling as well
[01:30:12] <les> prety high carbon steel
[01:30:21] <les> asme 1050 I think
[01:30:51] <gezr> well, maybe good carbide inserts used to make a drilling head get ground down to for the cutting teeth for the cutting head
[01:31:51] <les> I use carbide for the roghstuff...cobalt for fine finishing
[01:31:55] <les> M43
[01:32:00] <gezr> grinding?
[01:32:02] <gezr> or machining?
[01:32:08] <les> lathe and mill
[01:32:20] <gezr> I can do magic with carbide :)
[01:32:26] <gezr> and cermet
[01:32:46] <gezr> but not so good at home
[01:33:01] <les> I do hard things like ballscrews with all carbide
[01:33:09] <gezr> les : ever seen a roller burnisher?
[01:33:33] <les> not sure
[01:33:53] <les> we use butnishers to sharpen some wodworking tools
[01:34:11] <pfred1> that went well
[01:34:21] <les> what?
[01:34:46] <pfred1> ripping the secondary out of this microwave oven transformer
[01:34:58] <les> pretty easy?
[01:35:06] <pfred1> well
[01:35:19] <pfred1> with a whizzer and a foot long punch wasn't too bad
[01:35:32] <pfred1> on the web people speak of drilling it out
[01:35:45] <pfred1> and at one point I thought aobut it then was like nah,
[01:35:55] <les> what is a whizzer?
[01:36:08] <pfred1> cut off tool?
[01:36:21] <pfred1> little air gizmo with abrasive disc
[01:36:39] <les> oh like that dremel razor saw I buried in my hand once
[01:36:41] <gezr> http://www.cogsdill.com/burnishing.html
[01:36:45] <pfred1> pretty much cuts through anyuthing makes a whizing sound
[01:36:52] <pfred1> no
[01:37:02] <pfred1> like the dremel abrasive discs only bigger
[01:37:09] <pfred1> like a 3 inch diameter diac
[01:37:16] <pfred1> well they start off 3 inches
[01:37:48] <pfred1> don't tell me you don't have a whizzer?
[01:38:46] <les> I have a Milwaukee industrial angle grinder. Will that do?
[01:38:58] <les> and an air grinder
[01:39:26] <les> gezr: burnishing looks cool
[01:39:48] <pfred1> you can get an arbor for an air die grinder
[01:40:14] <pfred1> that's what I use to whiz with die grinder
[01:40:24] <pfred1> CP 1/4 die grinder
[01:40:44] <les> I have two...a larger 20,00 rpm unit and a 60,000 rpm pencil unit
[01:41:00] <pfred1> yeah use the 20K RPM one to whiz with
[01:41:01] <gezr> les it is the shizzznit
[01:41:09] <les> heh
[01:41:09] <gezr> les : i love it
[01:41:35] <gezr> les I even found a method I could use where I work
[01:42:18] <les> I have never tried it...except fotr sharpening woodworking tols
[01:42:41] <les> hook edge scrapers are burnished
[01:43:04] <les> we use those in production
[01:43:37] <pfred1> bend over the feather?
[01:43:52] <les> pity I do not know how to type huh?
[01:43:52] <gezr> diamond hones are uber for cast iron, but roller burnishing is tops for anything that can be formed
[01:45:07] <les> sounds good for ss, copper, brass, or other things that work harden
[01:45:18] <gezr> right
[01:46:05] <les> you know what would sell? an Inline spell checker for IRC
[01:46:10] <pfred1> well this xformer looks to be 1.9V a turn
[01:46:31] <jepler> les: I think that "gaim" has a built-in spellchecker, and can talk to IRC
[01:46:33] <pfred1> les there's free scripts that do that
[01:46:35] <gezr> les your going to let me test that I guess right?
[01:46:38] <les> 1.9v...the flux density is up there
[01:46:39] <pfred1> on the fly it's annoying
[01:47:09] <pfred1> google IRC spell check script should turn one up
[01:47:22] <les> I ought to check
[01:47:29] <les> I cannot type
[01:47:41] <pfred1> yeah you'd look smart then no typos no misspellings!
[01:47:41] <les> I try to type fast in irc
[01:47:51] <les> haha
[01:48:00] <pfred1> yeah the scripts do it on the fly at computer speed
[01:48:10] <pfred1> you hit enter it translates
[01:48:13] <les> I will check that out
[01:48:30] <gezr> irc isnt a disertation forum, it was just a place to openly talk, that is why a lot of words are missplaced and misspelled, not to lessen the language but to provide a method of discussion
[01:48:42] <les> I guess
[01:48:46] <pfred1> so for my 24V I'd need like 12 turns it seems like?
[01:48:47] <SWPadnos> Hi guys
[01:48:50] <pfred1> hey
[01:49:01] <les> hello SWP
[01:49:01] <pfred1> I think i can wind this thing 12 times!
[01:49:13] <paul_c> * paul_c pokes SWPadnos
[01:49:15] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos is on Jymmm time now !
[01:49:25] <SWPadnos> ouch!
[01:49:28] <gezr> you could install a leet speak script and have 3\/3ry 7h1n6 100k l1k3 7h15
[01:49:47] <SWPadnos> http://www.rinkworks.com - you need the "Dialectizer"
[01:49:58] <pfred1> yeah you can probably get any of the text filters
[01:50:04] <paul_c> SWPadnos: For telling me to go to sleep on Saturday...
[01:50:17] <SWPadnos> hey - you were up late :)
[01:50:21] <pfred1> 10:45pm up 6:40, 3 users, load average: 0.09, 0.04, 0.01
[01:50:27] <les> M son talks to his buds on some kind of voice thing
[01:50:35] <gezr> team speak
[01:50:36] <les> like irc but voice
[01:50:41] <gezr> I have a server running right now
[01:50:41] <les> yeah
[01:50:46] <les> team speak
[01:51:06] <les> I get on IRC and he says "dad you are so lame"
[01:51:10] <SWPadnos> paul_c: you're up late now, too :)
[01:51:19] <gezr> I dont think anyone is on it, but just get the team speak client and point it to masternode.net there is no user name, have a nickname, the password is gotmilk
[01:51:25] <SWPadnos> U r so lamerz
[01:51:37] <gezr> you will need a microphone
[01:51:45] <les> haha
[01:51:50] <gezr> let me make sure its up
[01:52:08] <gezr> yep, its up
[01:52:14] <gezr> use quick connect
[01:52:19] <les> I have...a Shure Unidyne III of course
[01:53:06] <paul_c> SWPadnos: Been messing around with fusion here (and filing bug/error reports)
[01:53:13] <les> I will have to study how to do that
[01:53:18] <SWPadnos> ah - what are you finding?
[01:53:31] <gezr> http://www.goteamspeak.com/news.php
[01:53:37] <paul_c> No rtai_shm or rtai_math modules
[01:53:48] <SWPadnos> I mentioned EMC in one of the seminars (on embedding Linux)
[01:54:10] <paul_c> much interest ?
[01:54:37] <SWPadnos> a bit - the instructor (Bill Gatiliff) was familiar with the project
[01:55:21] <SWPadnos> He was saying that Linux as an embedded system is only good when the bulk of the tasks are non-realtime, but need other things (like TCP/IP, etc) to go around a small RT core
[01:56:01] <SWPadnos> I mentioned EMC as an example of a system that has pretty hard RT demands (pulse generation)
[01:57:36] <paul_c> Servo loop is the important one - Without that, the pulse gen task is useless.
[01:57:50] <SWPadnos> so it is.
[01:58:22] <SWPadnos> I was pointing out that RTAI was capable of running a 50-80K ints/sec rate reasonably
[01:59:08] <SWPadnos> 5 uS jitter on the servo loop is almost insignificant - 5uS on the 16uS pulse loop is a bit more of a concern
[01:59:13] <paul_c> 50K yes, 80K, I doubt it (not on i86 hardware)
[01:59:31] <SWPadnos> 80k ints == 40k pulses (best case)
[02:00:07] <SWPadnos> you're right - 16 uS translates to 60k (I didn't mention the numbers in the session - I only miscaclulated them now :) )
[02:00:49] <paul_c> OK... If you are talking inturrupts per sec, 80K is 12.5�Sec
[02:00:56] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:01:10] <SWPadnos> still hard for anything <1.5GHz, I'd bet
[02:01:14] <paul_c> I have had it down to 7.5�Sec
[02:01:24] <SWPadnos> cool - what level of hardware?
[02:02:00] <paul_c> and withsome recent changes to the code, I reckon it could go lower... 6�Sec perhaps...
[02:02:21] <paul_c> On an Athlon 1800XP
[02:02:40] <paul_c> But jitter & latency is crap.
[02:02:52] <SWPadnos> excellent. That's an area I might actually be useful in (faster than the HW drivers / RT<->UT communications
[02:03:13] <SWPadnos> (6uS excellent - not jitter == crap)
[02:03:39] <paul_c> faster RT threads doesn't get you faster RT<=>UT comms
[02:03:48] <SWPadnos> the trouble is that you need nearly infinite processor speed to get the jitter much lower
[02:03:57] <SWPadnos> I meant I'd be useful faster :)
[02:04:50] <SWPadnos> I'm pretty good at low level optimizations, much more so than at IPC on Linux/RTAI
[02:05:04] <paul_c> The main factor affecting the latency & jitter is the size of the cache & pipeline depth
[02:05:13] <gezr> interesting mails reguarding macro stuff
[02:05:29] <SWPadnos> jitter is probably outside the scope of EMC
[02:05:53] <les> using step pulses is essentially an analog proces...frequency modulation
[02:06:12] <les> but then you have to generate and time the carrier
[02:06:15] <paul_c> Intel's speculative cache really impacts on RT performance, as does a number of other things..
[02:06:19] <SWPadnos> pulse rate modulation (to be pedantic :) )
[02:06:36] <les> with servos you only have to generate the baseband
[02:06:42] <SWPadnos> yeah, and AMD's sub-par interrupt controllers do a number on the Athlons
[02:06:52] <les> 100 times less processing power?
[02:07:16] <SWPadnos> les: for what?
[02:07:56] <SWPadnos> It would be great if we could grab a sibling processor (HT sibling) for RT code
[02:08:05] <SWPadnos> (on a P4, of course)
[02:08:48] <pfred1> using up all my wire I got 19.7V out of it
[02:09:04] <les> Just if only you generate the baseband jitter is much less a consideration
[02:09:13] <SWPadnos> Man - that would be a nightmare for testing though - I wonder how HT affects interrupt latency?
[02:09:17] <SWPadnos> right
[02:09:18] <les> but I think you said that already
[02:10:33] <SWPadnos> Oh yeah - the trade show part of the conference starts tomorrow - is there any hardware people would like me to take a look at?
[02:10:46] <SWPadnos> Or grill the salespeople about? :)
[02:11:21] <gezr> willing ness to share guts with open source community to provide a broader user base
[02:11:42] <SWPadnos> well - that's a given :)
[02:11:46] <gezr> :)
[02:12:33] <SWPadnos> I think a lot of the vendors of embedded hardware provide documentation
[02:12:39] <gezr> yeah
[02:12:49] <gezr> im getting tired
[02:13:01] <SWPadnos> of course, they have to to the developers (since the systems are being customized), but whether or not it's under NDA is the issue
[02:15:06] <SWPadnos> Actually - I've got to run - my laptop battery is about dead. I'll pop back on sometime tomorrow, I think.
[02:15:07] <SWPadnos> Wee ya
[02:15:11] <SWPadnos> See, that is
[02:15:22] <SWPadnos> (damned laptop keyboards)
[02:15:31] <gezr> take it easy, and have fun
[02:15:37] <SWPadnos> thanks :)
[02:18:51] <paul_c> * paul_c heads off to bed also..
[02:18:56] <gezr> night paul_c
[02:19:03] <paul_c> g'night.
[02:19:11] <gezr> I dont know why but I cant focus my thoughts tonight
[02:19:38] <pfred1> 29.5V with the bridge and a cap
[02:20:21] <pfred1> I think I'll try to drive an axis with it
[02:20:31] <gezr> * gezr cheers
[02:26:09] <gezr> pfred1 : are you aka fred P?
[02:27:42] <pfred1> no
[02:27:52] <pfred1> /whois pfred1
[02:28:11] <gezr> ah, okay
[02:28:16] <gezr> I didnt know
[02:28:26] <gezr> :)
[02:28:57] <pfred1> this rewinding microwave oven transformers works!
[02:29:39] <gezr> hahaha, diving the motor pretty good?
[02:29:46] <pfred1> I rewound is with 14 gage wire I got out of a piece of romex
[02:30:05] <gezr> you rewound the primary?
[02:30:16] <pfred1> well that's another story I grabbed a circuit on protoboard and well it needs some looking at it used to work
[02:30:23] <pfred1> no removed the secondary
[02:30:32] <pfred1> left the primary
[02:31:07] <pfred1> but this thing has plenty of power that's for sure
[02:31:27] <gezr> no heat?
[02:31:34] <pfred1> was like a 1200 watt microwave or better
[02:31:58] <pfred1> it's pumping out some great voltage!
[02:34:25] <gezr> i need to go to bed soon
[02:34:40] <gezr> today was a bad one, with the news, im sure my boss isnt happy about me being sickly and then down
[02:34:50] <A-L-P-H-A> hey folks.
[02:35:03] <gezr> A-L-P-H-A : howdy
[02:35:36] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr, what's up? something bad?
[02:36:12] <gezr> ive been sick with something, in my chest. and I got news my uncle may be dying
[02:36:23] <A-L-P-H-A> shibby. sorry to hear that.
[02:37:16] <gezr> its alright
[02:41:44] <pfred1> quit going upstairs
[02:50:23] <jepler> haven't looked yet, but this might be interesting:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/gerbv/
[02:51:32] <K`zan> It is interesting :)
[02:51:55] <K`zan> back to trying to get this damn WAP11 to work...
[02:52:33] <jepler> I wish I knew about the relationship between rs274x and rs274ngc "g-code".
[02:53:29] <gezr> I havent read the wiki stuff, and im not able to follow the emails
[02:53:56] <pfred1> wiki waki woo
[02:54:22] <gezr> rs274ngc I think is but a standardized version of the original g-codes used on the early cnc machines
[02:55:41] <gezr> macros in gcode files is way cool
[02:55:52] <gezr> or parametric programing
[02:56:15] <gezr> same with sub routines, or sub programs
[02:56:56] <gezr> position; m98 dothis;new position; m98 dothis;
[02:57:12] <gezr> same feature 2 places
[02:57:44] <gezr> if the feature is in 20 places its easer to change just one program then the same program line 20 times
[02:58:46] <jepler> bah. write programs to generate g-code instead.
[02:58:53] <jepler> (spoken like a true programmer, I suppose)
[02:59:24] <gezr> I agree, but the good g-code generators, use sub routines
[02:59:26] <gezr> :)
[02:59:34] <gezr> they dont just make billion line files
[03:00:09] <gezr> and I havent explored as to wether emc has canned cycles
[03:01:04] <jepler> my programs work today on emc and have a fighting chance to work on other systems with small changes. After I add subroutines, I don't know if I could say the same.
[03:01:57] <gezr> machines have subtile differences reguarding M codes and canned cycles
[03:02:54] <jepler> if I'm worried about that, I'll write a Python program to convert any g-code file to just G0 and G1 commands
[03:02:57] <gezr> m98 is a typical sub program call, m98 p1000 would call program number 1000 m98 p41000 would call program 1000 4 times, at the end of program 1000 it would have an m99
[03:03:48] <gezr> I can only speak from comercial machine experience
[03:04:19] <jepler> kill me now. If I want to write programs where I refer to subroutines with line numbers, I'll run a Commodore 64 emulator.
[03:04:38] <gezr> and this doesnt even involve conversational programing
[03:06:22] <A-L-P-H-A> I love the feeling of clean teeth. :)
[03:07:45] <gezr> jepler : thing about emc that you can do is create your own special type of G-code, emc allows that freedom, where you could write the interpeters language to suit however you wanted it to be commanded, I dont know if that sounded right, but you could do that
[03:08:56] <gezr> if I ever learn how to program, im going to write in the conversational programing stuff, so that a guy doesnt have to write gcode, but just fill in blanks
[03:09:31] <gezr> or teach someone how that stuff works
[03:10:35] <jepler> gezr: yeah, I could easily write a Python program to command EMC (stupidest way would be by sending MDI commands) but it's just as easy to print output to a file and open it in AXIS
[03:11:09] <gezr> jepler : yeah, that sounds cool
[03:11:47] <gezr> jepler : your on the right track to the user side of machine control, or human side
[03:12:06] <gezr> all the new controls try to do that with conversational stuff
[03:12:31] <jepler> I guess my company once worked on something that could be called conversational programming (I didn't work on it) -- it was a fairly special-purpose GUI to create programs for drilling/punching/cutting structural steel.
[03:12:41] <gezr> yeah
[03:12:43] <pfred1> woo Power Tool Drag Racing on the discovery channel!
[03:12:51] <jepler> it was all terrible stuff, despite how simple it seemed to me (as an outsider)
[03:13:04] <pfred1> pay out your extention cords boys!
[03:14:25] <gezr> jepler : ill see if I can find some stuff on gcodes and canned cycles, would you like me to do that and get back with you?
[03:15:11] <jepler> gezr: here's the documentation I've referred to for canned cycles. About the only cycle I use is G82, straight drill with dwell
[03:15:12] <gezr> jepler : not so you can work with g-codes, but so you can continue on your path, knowing where a lot of us may be comming from, so you can meld in your own way or whatever you wish to do?
[03:15:14] <Jymmm> pfred1: too much drag, I got 100K' of fusable link instead. gets lighter the further you go =)
[03:15:16] <jepler> http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/RS274NGC_3/RS274NGC_33a.html#1003380
[03:17:27] <gezr> jepler : yeah
[03:17:43] <jepler> gezr: it's quite likely that my viewpoint is different from most people who are doing CNC. I can accept that.
[03:18:19] <gezr> jepler : well, its not wrong, im not going to argue with you on any point, the backgrounds are too far apart
[03:19:53] <gezr> jepler : I like your ideas, they suit something I may not be able to use
[03:20:12] <gezr> but to someone else, they may the the golden thread :)
[03:20:20] <jepler> hm -- I'm not sure how to send commands from Python in userspace to emc in a way that would play nice with the motion planner. I think the machine will always come to a full stop after each MDI commands
[03:20:35] <gezr> yeah mdi is single block
[03:21:16] <gezr> jepler : emc in its native state, acts as close to comercial control as possiable, why they did it the way they did, I dont know
[03:23:08] <gezr> jepler : hey on your G82 that you use, can you give me an example line?
[03:23:11] <jepler> I guess I'd have to get ahold of the interp_list in emctask and push stuff onto it
[03:23:32] <jepler> gezr: sure, here's one: G82 X[220.000000*#1] Y[287.000000*#1] Z#2 P#3 R#4
[03:23:51] <jepler> maybe not very informative with all those #-signs
[03:23:58] <gezr> jepler : okay, your using parameters?
[03:24:18] <jepler> yeah, I do in most of my programs, even generated ones.
[03:25:06] <jepler> That might actually be something like G82 X2.20 Y2.87 Z-.004 P.001 R.002
[03:25:59] <jepler> (R is the "clear Z" when G99 is in effect)
[03:26:23] <gezr> jepler : write an interface that asks a few things, like 5 boxes, hole location X<user input> Z<user input> dwell at bottom <user input> feed rate<user input> something else< user input> accept cancel you fill in the blanks, and when accept is clicked, the line of code, g82 box box box box box box is inputed into the program that would be a conversational programming
[03:27:05] <gezr> you could even have a photo in the input dialog that shows where each input coresponds to
[03:27:36] <gezr> that way, you dont need to know much about what the g-code is, just that you want to make a hole at a location
[03:27:40] <jepler> yeah
[03:28:00] <jepler> cradek has a 2.5d g-code export for autocad that does some of these things
[03:28:07] <gezr> cool
[03:28:09] <jepler> (autolisp code)
[03:28:22] <gezr> thats mainly how most things are done in conversational,
[03:28:27] <jepler> it's not too friendly, though, you have to know magic stuff to put in labels to get the parameters you want (feed rate)
[03:28:39] <gezr> its a choice of cycles per say
[03:29:35] <gezr> Im on the medicine so im getting sleepy
[03:29:37] <jepler> in my world the thing to be milled comes from some piece of software (Eagle for PCBs, my own software for other stuff) so the task of finding out what the user wants is already taken care of .. it's the translation that I do
[03:29:46] <jepler> ah, I'm not on medicine but I'm sleepy too
[03:29:50] <jepler> talk to you another time
[03:30:13] <gezr> jepler : in my world, some guy brings me a print, and says make me one of these
[03:31:04] <gezr> jepler : take care :)
[03:32:17] <gezr> jepler : do you use g82 with as a modal command, g82 main guts; next line x7 y2; next line x6 y2; next line x5 y2; next line x4 y2.... to make say a line of holes?
[03:32:44] <jepler> gezr: I write G82 on every line, though I'm not sure it's strictly required
[03:33:24] <jepler> gezr: typically at one step I use a program to re-order all the G82s to reduce the rapid travel distance (xy travel) so it's easiest to put everything (G82, F-, R-) on all the lines rather than have some kind of special case
[03:34:04] <gezr> jepler : yeah im not seeing canned cycle cancel
[03:34:15] <gezr> hmm
[03:34:38] <gezr> it would be benificial when you have a bunch of holes going to the same depth, just at different positions
[03:35:22] <jepler> but why go to all that trouble just to save a few bytes of g-code?
[03:36:25] <jepler> if(first_g82_lately || parameters_dont_match) { printf("g82 complicated format") } else { printf("x- y-") }
[03:36:54] <gezr> im thinking in terms of a limited program size machine
[03:36:55] <jepler> for hand-writing code sure, but for generated code or conversational? forget it
[03:37:19] <jepler> Yeah, I guess I'm lucky emc didn't implement a 4k limit for programs or something crazy like that
[03:37:19] <Jymmm> gezr: couldn't you just break it into multiple files?
[03:37:54] <gezr> its possiable, run one program, delete it, load the new one in, run it, on and on
[03:38:16] <Jymmm> gezr: memory and PC's are cheap these days
[03:38:24] <jepler> but with the project I mentioned earlier, I seem to remember that program size was a concern... and this when only punching dozens of holes and making a handful of cuts..
[03:39:01] <jepler> they used some odd pcmcia flash memories, several kilobytes of capacity
[03:39:19] <gezr> jepler : yeah thats what ive got on a machine built in 2003
[03:39:54] <gezr> emc is so much more advanced, but it was but a mimic of what was already in industry
[03:39:56] <jepler> but .. you sell somebody a $250k machine and it has a program limit that's smaller than my PC had 15 years ago?
[03:40:20] <gezr> jepler : I didnt make those rules
[03:40:41] <gezr> jepler : some machines have unlimited program sizes, they have a pc in them
[03:41:04] <gezr> the back side or control side that accually does the motion, is drip fed the program :)
[03:41:12] <gezr> or g-code
[03:41:36] <jepler> looks like the biggest g-code file I have on hand is about 3 megabytes in 234k lines
[03:42:05] <jepler> and it is somewhat optimized for space, with many lines having only a Y-
[03:42:50] <jepler> but occasional real stupid lines: (yes, the same line repeated twice)
[03:42:50] <jepler> Y0.220 Z0.324
[03:42:50] <jepler> Y0.220 Z0.324
[03:42:53] <gezr> jepler : well dont think your on the wrong track, your not limited by already knowing the junk I know
[03:43:27] <jepler> g'night, for real this time.
[03:43:32] <gezr> jepler : take care
[03:44:41] <gezr> goodnight you guys, im out as well
[03:48:17] <pfred1> nite
[08:24:51] <anonimasu> good morning
[08:24:52] <anonimasu> :)
[08:46:45] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is looking for books
[10:04:20] <nevyn> hrm
[10:38:55] <A-L-P-H-A> morning folks
[10:44:21] <nevyn> � evening
[12:07:30] <A-L-P-H-A> brewed > instant. always
[13:18:28] <nevyn> yeah definitly
[14:22:51] <Jymmm> Mornin Folks!
[14:31:25] <Jymmm> Afternoon?
[14:31:50] <paul_c> Afternoon indeed
[14:32:05] <Jymmm> Heh, how goes it?
[14:32:57] <paul_c> * paul_c books yet another flight to the US of A
[14:33:12] <Jymmm> Yeah, Where to?
[14:33:40] <paul_c> IAD
[14:33:47] <Jymmm> ew
[14:34:39] <paul_c> Cheap flight...
[14:34:59] <Jymmm> Highest crime area in the country, and that's just the politicians
[14:35:52] <Jymmm> But seriously, it really is the highest crime area in the country.
[14:36:29] <Jymmm> "Gawd Bless America, and bitchless the dumbasses!"
[14:36:35] <Jymmm> bitchslap
[14:37:23] <Jymmm> paul_c: business or pleasure?
[14:39:03] <paul_c> pleasure - USA.... unlikely with the current dictatorship.
[14:40:18] <Jymmm> Ah, cool.
[14:41:09] <Jymmm> Dumb question... If I buy acme rod, I'll still need to turn it to finish the ends, correct?
[14:41:47] <Jymmm> I mean, it doesn't normally come 'finished'
[14:43:19] <paul_c> You'd probably find the ends "as cut"
[14:44:38] <Jymmm> Ok. I'll have to figure out some way to finish them (no lathe).
[14:46:12] <paul_c> Make a friend with someone who has..
[14:47:13] <Jymmm> heh
[14:47:46] <Jymmm> If I just mention "calipers" to my friends, they go "huh"?
[14:48:44] <Jymmm> it's all good though, I'll figure something out =)
[14:49:32] <paul_c> Join the Bay Area metal working/mangling gtoup
[14:59:00] <les> Good excuse to buy a lathe Jymmm
[14:59:54] <Jymmm> les: Well, I was considering one fo those 3-in-1 machines, but very little room for just a mill alone.
[15:00:19] <Jymmm> Plus so little travel on those.
[15:00:26] <les> have a place to put stuff?
[15:00:44] <Jymmm> les: I'm in an apartment
[15:00:54] <les> ah
[15:01:10] <les> machine shop course at local tech school
[15:01:26] <les> easy way to get in a nice shop
[15:02:17] <Jymmm> That's an idea, the local JC is just around the corner.
[15:02:31] <les> handy
[15:03:12] <Jymmm> Might actually learn something while I'm there too =)
[15:03:34] <les> My Lathe came from city colleges of chicago
[15:03:41] <les> we bought 5 at aution
[15:03:49] <les> auction
[15:04:03] <Jymmm> that's cool.
[15:04:39] <Jymmm> Yeah, I have limited room.... Any machien would have to fit on a 30" x 60" table and SHARE that space too.
[15:04:52] <les> the classes are sure to have some cnc as well
[15:05:51] <Jymmm> I'll check out the shop before singing up =)
[15:05:55] <Jymmm> signing
[15:05:59] <les> yeah
[15:06:23] <Jymmm> Lord help us all if I started singing?!?!?!
[15:07:00] <Jymmm> dogs in a 500 mile radius would be howling!
[15:07:50] <les> If I had things to do over in my hobby tool days I would have bought bigger machines sooner
[15:08:44] <les> But machine tools were VERY expensive then
[15:09:19] <les> A good mill or lathe cost as much as a new car
[15:09:23] <Jymmm> It's very difficult to actually be productive in an apartment. You have to teardowna dn put away after each run, or you won't be able to use the room for anything else.
[15:09:44] <Jymmm> then it take 20 minutes to get all setup again.
[15:10:33] <les> I wanted space for tools and sound gear so at 21 I rented a house
[15:10:42] <Jymmm> Thus why I was teasing you with the "I HAT YOU" bit and all that room you have in your shop.
[15:10:45] <les> later shared with others
[15:11:00] <les> It was cheaper than an apartment and I had the room
[15:11:19] <les> heh
[15:11:21] <Jymmm> Makes sense, just not out here so much.
[15:11:26] <cradek> around here, simple houses and decent apartments are about the same price.
[15:11:32] <cradek> I'm sure it's not like that everywhere.
[15:11:43] <cradek> we have plenty of land (and houses)
[15:11:48] <les> I don't know
[15:12:31] <les> I made my shop building hehe way too small
[15:12:36] <les> here
[15:12:50] <cradek> I think all shops are way too small
[15:12:59] <cradek> ... after a year or two of use
[15:13:02] <cradek> same goes for houses
[15:13:11] <les> should have been double the size
[15:13:38] <les> Anyway the plan was to plumb and wire it all in
[15:13:59] <les> so when it gets too small for a shop turn it into an apartment
[15:14:13] <les> so I did that
[15:14:24] <les> plumbed and wired that is
[15:14:52] <Jymmm> heh
[15:15:02] <les> Although I wonder if I should keep building all these outbuildings
[15:15:19] <les> I just don't want to commute to industrial space
[15:15:36] <cradek> around here our taxes go up whenever we put up an outbuilding
[15:15:43] <Jymmm> les: Just layou the foundation / plumbing for 100,000 sq ft.
[15:16:13] <Jymmm> les: then build out as you need, moving the ext wall
[15:16:32] <cradek> yeah, call the unused portion a patio
[15:16:43] <Jymmm> there ya go
[15:16:49] <Jymmm> or a driveway
[15:16:59] <Jymmm> that just happens to shrink 30' each year
[15:17:07] <Jymmm> =)
[15:18:27] <les> next space needs 3 phase from the power company rether than converters
[15:19:17] <Jymmm> les: the way it sounds, you might as well have them install a transfer station on your property
[15:19:30] <les> heh
[15:20:11] <Jymmm> how many acres you said you have 3? 23?
[15:20:19] <les> 50
[15:21:02] <Jymmm> ah, yeah theres enough there for a mini transfer station. You think 50MW potential will do you for at least a year?
[15:21:12] <les> heh
[15:22:52] <les> A lot of the land is hard to get to
[15:23:14] <les> 150 ft vertical rock cliffs
[15:24:15] <les> (was a rock quarry)
[15:25:13] <les> Anyway what happens next really depends on getting 3 phase
[15:25:37] <les> converters work, but they are a pain to keep balanced
[15:26:34] <les> A giant electronic inverter with power factor and balance feedback would solve that problem
[15:27:42] <les> My converter now uses a 12 hp idler motor
[15:29:05] <les> anyway back to work for me...was just sitting here eating a late breakfast
[15:29:47] <les> on a windy and snowy morning
[15:54:17] <paul_c> Yo Ray.
[15:58:26] <paul_c> Morning Alex.
[15:58:45] <alex_joni> hey paul
[15:59:02] <alex_joni> I just got to work ;)
[15:59:07] <alex_joni> 18:04 here ;)
[15:59:15] <paul_c> 18:03
[15:59:23] <alex_joni> depends ;)
[15:59:31] <paul_c> 16:03 - Keyboard error...
[15:59:42] <alex_joni> the more clocks you have.. to less precision in time-measuring you get
[16:00:25] <paul_c> A stopped clock is at least correct twice per day.
[16:00:44] <alex_joni> to the nanosecond ;)
[16:00:57] <paul_c> * paul_c syncs with ntp.cis.strath.ac.uk daily...
[16:01:08] <alex_joni> how's your konquest into fusion?
[16:02:05] <joe2000chevy> are there any linux guru's here?
[16:02:21] <alex_joni> depends on who you ask
[16:02:26] <joe2000chevy> lol
[16:02:28] <paul_c> Fusion has another year (maybe more...) of development work before it can be considered for production code.
[16:02:47] <alex_joni> ask linus: he'll say there aren't
[16:02:47] <paul_c> joe2000chevy: What have you broken ?
[16:02:52] <joe2000chevy> well has anyone done a linux install on a windows system for dual boot.
[16:02:58] <alex_joni> sure
[16:03:00] <paul_c> yup
[16:03:03] <joe2000chevy> BUT!
[16:03:07] <alex_joni> butt
[16:03:10] <joe2000chevy> its knows as a partitionless installation
[16:03:12] <paul_c> dual boot multiple linux installs
[16:03:22] <alex_joni> that's that too
[16:03:36] <alex_joni> right.. you can set-up the linux partition inside a windows-file
[16:03:40] <alex_joni> works on fat32
[16:03:46] <alex_joni> wouldn't go there on NTFS
[16:03:48] <joe2000chevy> NTFS?
[16:03:55] <alex_joni> unless you use 2.6
[16:03:58] <joe2000chevy> y?
[16:04:04] <joe2000chevy> 2.6 what?
[16:04:14] <alex_joni> NTFS write support is experimental in the 2.4 kernel
[16:04:28] <paul_c> and still not fully tested in 2.6
[16:04:30] <alex_joni> the 2.6 kernel seems (but I don't know for sure) to be able to write NTFS
[16:04:43] <anonimasu> hello
[16:04:45] <anonimasu> :)
[16:04:55] <paul_c> eeks
[16:05:06] <joe2000chevy> BDI would not load on a NTSF unless i was doing something wrong?
[16:05:38] <joe2000chevy> but it would be nice to install the BDI partitionless installation
[16:05:44] <paul_c> It isn't designed (or tested) for NTFS
[16:05:51] <rayh> * rayh was reading stuff. Hi Guys.
[16:06:00] <joe2000chevy> shucks.
[16:06:28] <paul_c> joe2000chevy: You have an old HDD lying around ?
[16:07:00] <joe2000chevy> nope
[16:07:11] <joe2000chevy> i have two but they crashed
[16:07:18] <anonimasu> afaik you cant use NTFS in linux
[16:07:21] <paul_c> you have one infected with a microsoft virus ?
[16:07:37] <joe2000chevy> no hardware failure
[16:07:45] <anonimasu> unless microsoft opened up their specs which is highly unlikely
[16:12:26] <alex_joni> hey rayh
[16:12:45] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders if anyone has seen SWP lately
[16:12:50] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[16:12:52] <anonimasu> nope
[16:12:59] <paul_c> That is the nice thing about closed "standards" - Reverse engineer them to produce compatable products, then the "standard" changes.
[16:13:21] <paul_c> SWP was here briefly last night...
[16:13:37] <alex_joni> paul: but usually the reverse engineered stuff gets better than the standard
[16:13:43] <alex_joni> take SAMBA for example
[16:14:25] <joe2000chevy> i had to revert back to windwos to get everything working right, Until i can learn linux and do filesharings and a remote access, and make machines compatable. thats why i wanted to do a dual boot and progress to into it.
[16:14:55] <alex_joni> joe: get a cheap 4 gig hdd
[16:15:04] <alex_joni> shouldn't be more than 20$
[16:15:09] <joe2000chevy> yea i will look for one.
[16:15:13] <paul_c> joe2000chevy: Linux Cookbook published by O'Reilly - Well worth the read.
[16:15:33] <anonimasu> joe2000chevy: if you want help setting up samba or somthing I can help you
[16:16:50] <joe2000chevy> ok, let me get a hdd and do it
[16:20:39] <rayh> Hi Alex.
[16:21:53] <rayh> paul_c: Wow my 4.14 requires 225 meg of updating already.
[16:22:32] <paul_c> hold back on updating bootsplash & kdm
[16:23:21] <anonimasu> hm.
[16:23:21] <anonimasu> http://pico-systems.com/edm.html
[16:23:32] <rayh> Okay.
[16:24:54] <rayh> How many days would it take to upgrade everything at 1.5B/s?
[16:25:45] <paul_c> couple of years...
[16:28:40] <paul_c> I need to update the master repository with KDE3.3
[16:44:58] <anonimasu> :)
[16:57:41] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/generic.run: Create the rtai_shm device if udev is running..
[17:13:50] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes home
[17:13:52] <alex_joni> bye
[17:13:57] <paul_c> bye
[17:14:05] <alex_joni> talk with you later
[19:16:59] <anonimasu> iab
[19:36:50] <anonimasu> hm..
[19:36:56] <anonimasu> my program is growing a bit
[19:36:58] <anonimasu> :9
[19:36:58] <anonimasu> :)
[19:41:34] <paul_c> anonimasu: what are you working on ??
[19:42:01] <anonimasu> paul_c: serial port > nml message thingie
[19:42:05] <anonimasu> for running a jog wheel from a plc..
[19:42:21] <anonimasu> and various other things with it..
[19:42:36] <alex_joni> greetings
[19:43:39] <anonimasu> I'll get my encoders for it tomorrow
[19:50:38] <alex_joni> how are you guys?
[19:50:48] <anonimasu> I am ok
[19:50:50] <anonimasu> you?
[19:51:00] <alex_joni> pretty tired.. but ok ;)
[19:51:24] <anonimasu> I wont be able to test this out before tomorrow though since I dont feel like going outside to the shop..
[19:51:37] <alex_joni> it's snowing again here
[19:52:13] <anonimasu> but I think the serial port reading will work
[19:52:44] <alex_joni> that's basic ;)
[19:53:01] <Jymmm> * Jymmm grabs the snow melting salt and rubs it in.... It's 74 outside, sun is shining bright, adn I'm running arround in shorts.
[19:53:04] <anonimasu> alex_joni: yes, but I cant try if it works as supposed without a serial port :)
[19:53:37] <alex_joni> why not?
[19:53:55] <anonimasu> because I dont have one :)
[19:54:07] <anonimasu> new laptop
[19:54:10] <anonimasu> :)
[19:54:46] <alex_joni> well.. you can try with a software slider ;)
[19:54:48] <Jymmm> I bought a laptop this year and made sure it had a serial port. I hate that they removed them .
[19:55:03] <anonimasu> I have a usb one.. it works nicely..
[19:55:15] <Jymmm> Not for GPS is doesn't
[19:55:26] <anonimasu> hm, depends on your brand..
[19:55:53] <Jymmm> All of them.... you loose precision. USB polls the devices.
[19:56:40] <Jymmm> anonimasu: you haven't had any issue with CNC ?
[19:57:04] <anonimasu> Jymmm: why would I use a laptop for running my mill?
[19:57:18] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Why Not, it's just a computer.
[19:58:07] <anonimasu> Jymmm: have you read the trouble people have had with turbocnc and paralell ports?
[19:58:22] <Jymmm> anonimasu: no,
[19:58:44] <Jymmm> .
[19:59:06] <Jymmm> whats the problem there?
[19:59:15] <anonimasu> some timing issue..
[19:59:22] <paul_c> hey.. The turboCNC crowd can always use a USB to Parport adaptor....
[19:59:31] <anonimasu> that wont work, since it's a dos app..
[19:59:46] <Jymmm> You know, I suspect APM
[20:00:06] <Jymmm> oh, turbocnc is DOS based.
[20:00:08] <anonimasu> Jymmm: besides a 3.4ghz laptop isnt somthing to have around swarf..
[20:00:11] <anonimasu> :)
[20:00:23] <anonimasu> and chips..
[20:01:23] <Jymmm> I've never heard of any issues with parallel that wasn't resolved with a settting in the BIOS.
[20:09:51] <anonimasu> I dont really know.. but it dosent matter
[20:10:49] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Come on now.... you don't like typing and getting chips gouged into your finger tips?
[20:10:49] <anonimasu> oh, I dont like getting chips into my laptop-..
[20:10:49] <anonimasu> ;)
[20:10:49] <Jymmm> gee, your no fun!
[20:10:49] <anonimasu> btw did you know you can run your USB at 500hz..
[20:10:49] <alex_joni> an0n: Mbit
[20:10:49] <anonimasu> nope..
[20:10:49] <anonimasu> alex_joni: the polling freq.. that is :)
[20:10:49] <anonimasu> there's a patch for linux to do it..
[20:10:49] <anonimasu> and some patch for windows aswell..
[20:10:49] <Jymmm> anonimasu: I've seen USB kybd's lag before. That's when I stopped have faith in it
[20:10:49] <alex_joni> an0n: don't think so
[20:10:56] <anonimasu> alex_joni: hm, explain why not..
[20:11:18] <anonimasu> http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=62
[20:11:35] <Jymmm> http://www.usb.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=7244&highlight=&
[20:11:44] <Jymmm> 500Hz
[20:12:16] <anonimasu> the only trouble is that the rf rate of my mouse if limited to 127hz
[20:13:07] <alex_joni> ahhh... 500 Hz
[20:13:11] <alex_joni> thought 500 MHz
[20:13:16] <alex_joni> 500 Hz is plausible
[20:13:31] <anonimasu> it does difference when using a mouse with it..
[20:13:48] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Damn... if it works, I'll take 500MHz toss on a probe and have an instant scope =)
[20:14:22] <anonimasu> :)
[20:14:37] <Jymmm> 255 of em
[20:14:52] <Jymmm> who needs dataloggers then
[20:14:52] <alex_joni> you still need an fat ADC
[20:14:52] <alex_joni> fast
[20:14:59] <alex_joni> and noise tolerant
[20:15:07] <Jymmm> eh, I'll build it into the probe
[20:15:14] <anonimasu> yep
[20:17:39] <anonimasu> Btw, they are suspending use of ps2rate/usb rate hack at counterstrike tournaments :)
[20:17:57] <anonimasu> I dont play anything like that but it's loads of fun to see how childish people are..
[20:25:44] <jepler> Jymmm: I've used a USB GPS device and never had trouble. I think it's this model:
http://www.deluoelectronics.com/catalog/Deluo_GPS_WAAS_for_Laptop__PDA_Serial_USB_or_PDA-p-58.html
[20:26:05] <anonimasu> jepler: I think he wants sub micron precision of the readings ;)
[20:27:01] <alex_joni> the readings have the same precision
[20:27:12] <alex_joni> only the refresh rate "may" differ
[20:27:17] <Jymmm> jepler: Dies it support NEMA signalling?
[20:27:19] <Jymmm> Does
[20:27:26] <alex_joni> but.. USB serial adapters go up to 230 kbit
[20:27:33] <alex_joni> way more than a normal serial port
[20:27:35] <jepler> alex_joni: they go beyond that
[20:27:48] <jepler> Jymmm: NMEA-0183 v2.20
[20:27:48] <jepler> EverMore (binary)
[20:28:36] <jepler> alex_joni: ft232bm says it does 3mbit/s
[20:28:51] <Jymmm> jepler: There's a company down here that caters to Surveyors, said they have had trouble with ever single one they have ever tried.
[20:28:54] <alex_joni> jepler: right
[20:29:50] <Jymmm> jepler: I believed this long before they (commercial world) confirmed it. Also have seen many issues where it works in W95, but not W98, Works in W98, but not 2k, works in 2k, but not XP, etc.
[20:30:19] <Jymmm> After 5 years, I just stopped mucking around with USB2SERIAL.
[20:30:46] <Jymmm> Just gimme my UART =)
[20:31:56] <Jymmm> jepler: Is this GPS a WinGPS?
[20:38:43] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed
[20:38:47] <alex_joni> night guys
[20:38:52] <anonimasu> night alex
[20:42:12] <Jymmm> If I'm reading the spec correctly, the volicity on my GPD is 0.05 eter/sec where the laptop one is 0.1 m/s
[20:42:23] <Jymmm> velocity
[20:42:54] <Jymmm> Eeeesh I really typoed there.
[20:43:09] <Jymmm> "Just read my mind already!" =)
[20:45:04] <anonimasu> :)
[20:48:02] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/ (9 files in 3 dirs): Replaced extAioWait with extAioReady - Returns EBUSY if a conversion is in progress.
[20:56:43] <paul_c> Hi Ray.
[21:01:57] <rayh> Hi Paul
[21:03:14] <gezr> howdy ya'll
[21:03:17] <paul_c> Flights are booked.
[21:03:59] <rayh> Great. When do you arrive?
[21:04:16] <paul_c> 21st April
[21:05:25] <paul_c> 18:15 @ Dulles
[21:05:57] <rayh> Going right to the motel?
[21:07:11] <paul_c> hadn't planned that far ahead - Probably get a room close to the airport and see about a car in the morning.
[21:10:13] <rayh> Okay. I'll see you sometime Friday then.
[21:17:56] <paul_c> * paul_c checks prices on motels @ IAD
[21:28:41] <paul_c> * paul_c thinks $239 is a bit steep
[21:30:19] <rayh> Rent the car and a parking space and sleep in the back seat.
[21:32:24] <paul_c> Immigration want (need) an address for the first night - So Homeland Security can come and arrest you if you try to blow the plane up...
[21:33:19] <anonimasu> neat
[21:33:20] <anonimasu> :)
[21:37:58] <rayh> Economy lot b-2745
[21:45:04] <Jymmm> 1313 Mocking Bird Lane
[21:50:07] <jepler> Jymmm: I haven't actually run it on Linux, but I'm pretty sure it's a documented serial protocol. cradek used a similar GPS in a project with an AVR microcontroller...
[22:04:19] <anonimasu> jepler: what?
[22:08:33] <Jymmm> jepler: That's cool. I suppose over the years that I'm just got tired of fighting the bullshit, and just go with what *I* know works 100% of the time anymore.
[22:09:42] <Jymmm> jepler: My GPS has BOTH serial and USB ports on it, so I can do what I need it to.
[22:09:42] <Jymmm> and not worry about it
[22:35:37] <jepler> anonimasu: talking about the USB GPS
[22:35:50] <jepler> anonimasu: you know, the subject .. oh, 2 hours ago
[23:13:53] <gezr> nice and quite tonight
[23:37:37] <robin_sz> meep!
[23:37:41] <gezr> moo
[23:37:51] <robin_sz> hows it hanging dude?
[23:37:53] <gezr> you broke the silence
[23:37:59] <gezr> its good bro
[23:38:05] <robin_sz> damn
[23:38:05] <robin_sz> can it be fixed?
[23:38:25] <nevyn> meh make a new one.
[23:38:31] <gezr> it doesnt need to be fixed
[23:38:39] <robin_sz> oh.
[23:38:51] <robin_sz> ok
[23:39:17] <nevyn> has anyone played with driving two motors on a single axis?
[23:39:19] <gezr> they come in spurts out of nothing, im sure ill ohave a new one to lenquish
[23:39:25] <robin_sz> heh, my BMW not only is fixed but passed its MOT today too :)
[23:39:35] <nevyn> MOT?
[23:39:41] <robin_sz> saftey test
[23:39:44] <gezr> I should have ordered new parts for mine today, but I failed
[23:39:44] <pfred1> BWM?
[23:39:45] <robin_sz> emissions that crap
[23:39:59] <pfred1> Break My Windows?
[23:40:03] <gezr> nevyn : I dont know much about a dual type setup
[23:40:21] <robin_sz> car. long running story .,. it blew up last may .. only justr repaired!
[23:40:33] <pfred1> robin_sz what's BMW stand for backwards?
[23:40:52] <robin_sz> wheres my b... ?
[23:40:54] <robin_sz> dunno
[23:41:00] <pfred1> Wanted Mercedes Benz
[23:41:04] <robin_sz> heh
[23:41:30] <gezr> they make bikes?
[23:41:41] <robin_sz> anyway ... I have those wheels rolling again, so im happy
[23:41:44] <robin_sz> AND
[23:41:56] <robin_sz> ive had several enquiries about the laser and crap I have for sale
[23:42:08] <gezr> nevyn : I think its okay to send the step and dir signals to 2 seperate drives, I dont really know
[23:42:15] <pfred1> BWM 200tii were OK
[23:42:23] <pfred1> BWM 2002tii even
[23:42:30] <robin_sz> yeah, but old now
[23:42:40] <pfred1> so?
[23:42:49] <robin_sz> 635CSi was the beast
[23:42:50] <pfred1> they haven't made anything interesting since then
[23:43:14] <robin_sz> the CSi was a homologation special ... all alloy bodyshell
[23:44:01] <pfred1> when i look at new cars I understand why everyone leases today who'd want to own the stuff?
[23:44:11] <robin_sz> quite
[23:44:15] <robin_sz> it has no soul
[23:44:28] <robin_sz> modern bikes are the same
[23:44:28] <gezr> I own, I have no payment, its somewhat nice, just maintence
[23:44:48] <pfred1> gezr yeah my car is paid for too
[23:45:24] <gezr> i dont think I would ever lease a car
[23:45:26] <robin_sz> I have a GSXR600 and a 1976 Ducati ... the gixer is fast and superb handling .. but the Duke has soul
[23:45:59] <gezr> robin_sz will mine have spirit and soul as well, or just be?
[23:46:12] <pfred1> robin_sz gets 50% less road rash when some bimbo in an SUV pulls out as you ride by?
[23:46:22] <gezr> well its going to have to breathe on its own first I guess
[23:47:04] <robin_sz> gezr: I dont think modern 4 cylinder bikes have the same soul as classic italina V twins ...
[23:47:28] <gezr> robin_sz your right, I should chop it
[23:47:33] <nevyn> robin_sz: there are still cars that are awesome.
[23:47:53] <pfred1> nevyn people that have never had an awesome car always say that
[23:47:55] <robin_sz> pfred1: they dont do that to me on the Ducati ... it has a certian sound .. loud enough to make toilets flush themselves and seagulls to self-implode at 50m
[23:47:57] <nevyn> robin_sz: lotus espri jags.
[23:47:58] <gezr> robin_sz ive had some interesting dreams about the thing
[23:47:58] <nevyn> heh
[23:48:34] <robin_sz> nevyn: like what? shelby cobras maybe, yeah, ok the lotus, some jags etypesI guess
[23:48:55] <robin_sz> nevyn: but very few modern cars, if any .. and cetainyl nothing japanese
[23:49:27] <pfred1> I wanted a mistu GT3000 til I creamed one in a race years ago
[23:49:37] <robin_sz> gezr: putting something to gether that suddenly breathes its own life into itself, its special. im sure you'll enjoy riding it.
[23:50:01] <gezr> robin_sz its gonna be fun
[23:50:26] <robin_sz> pfred1: might be fast .. but has no soul ... my mate races classic jags .. now .. they have soul
[23:50:42] <gezr> new cars can earn a soul
[23:50:49] <pfred1> robin_sz I never cared for shaguars
[23:51:48] <robin_sz> http://www.manxcatsracing.com/news/cars.php
[23:52:31] <pfred1> there's no one in the driver's seat!
[23:53:41] <robin_sz> if you are going to race classics, they might as well be nice ones :)
[23:54:34] <gezr> 1985 is now clasic, anything good from that year?
[23:54:47] <gezr> ford probe kinda looks furturisitc still
[23:54:54] <robin_sz> yuck
[23:54:54] <pfred1> damn even my truck is an 83
[23:55:00] <gezr> or did that come out later?
[23:55:00] <robin_sz> muc later
[23:55:04] <robin_sz> much later
[23:55:09] <pfred1> my car is almost as old as i am
[23:55:11] <gezr> see my point :)
[23:55:17] <robin_sz> probe is like 95 at least
[23:55:23] <gezr> 20 for clasic
[23:55:30] <gezr> robin 90 I had a friend with one
[23:55:47] <gezr> holy crap my bike is a clasic
[23:56:04] <robin_sz> I think Grahams jags are 60s .. his etypes are certianly pre 70
[23:56:09] <pfred1> gezr for bikes that'd be last year's model
[23:56:19] <robin_sz> my Duke will be 30 next year
[23:57:11] <gezr> im going in to rest tonight, i think im about to get over what ever has been ailing me
[23:57:19] <pfred1> being as I'm a menace on a bike with pedals i never got involved with the motorized sort
[23:57:27] <gezr> just took my medicine, its supposed to make me sleepy
[23:57:31] <pfred1> figured it was just a good idea to avoid