how do you get the picture up? i did it once in sherline and 3d view.
i'm suttin air now. :)
oops.. ok Backplot
ok this is way cool......
Cool - EMC displaying on my WinBox!
got it on my Mac OS X box here
That's cool too.
I got it on my cellphone!
I just like having done something with open source software that's nigh on impossible on Windows
hmm I was just checking website stats
greatly increased hits on emc stuff
oh I know why....
Robin put me on the wiki I think
* paul_c throws some more fuel on the CCED fires
oh yeah? let me check
I thought CCED was burnt out already :)
nah, plenty of wood to burn.
hmmm minmal 256k...full 15 cdrs?
nice one (and even has an on-topic section)
though ELKS might fit into 256K
paul_c, hello, how goes it? do you still particpate in cced?
participate is such a strong word :)
oops yeah meg
15 CDs would include a whole bunch of stuff you would never, ever need or want.
I would imagine
* paul_c lurks on CCED to monitor the linux fud
paul_c, i understand.
It's amazing how much crap gets thrown around
As I gain enlightenment, CCED has become unnecessary
though the configuration of EMC is daunting (relative to Mach2 or probably DeskCNC)
SWPadnos, that is why i dropped it several years ago.
It is just a marketing tool for me.
Try configuring mach2 with a text editor.
I've been interested in learning about the motor and mechanical end of things, and there's a fair amount of good information
paul_c: well - the really interesting about that is that you don't have to
I kind of do that bit for a living...partly
Just like with the Yahoo! hobbicast group - I got tired of reading "HI I WANT 2 MELT BEER CANS CAN U HELP ME PLZ"
i.e. designing machine tools
right - LM Watts, right?
you can melt beer cans - WOW !!!
I've actually seen some bonehead abbreviate the word any with (wait for it...) n/e
anyone here on cnczone?
that's the kind of question that paul is feeding "can I make a XYZ CNC?"
Ooo, he really saved some keystrokes, didn't he?
I am but it is of limited uesfulness
get some hits from there
yes - that was pointed out to him
not a lot but some
yeah - 'n/e' is so much easier to reach than 'any'
well it let me build my machine, i did not use their plans or anything but new to cnc and cutting now.
I have some more articles coming up soon I hope on my site
Content is important
mostly machine design issues
How to melt beer cans: Step 1 - and this is important - REMOVE BEER FROM CAN
have to go to links in upper right
beer residue might be a good flux
anyway I am pretty good at removing the beer from the can
I like the big gantry router - I had looked through that page before
I can just see some hick taking a slug, and then throwing the still wet can into the melt
12 reps of 12 oz :)
SWP: thanks, it pretty much makes my daily bread
i got tired of explaining that melting any aluminum cans was a waste of energy and dangerous. putting a can with moisture into a curcible furnace is just asking for trouble.
les: Your webpages were part of my web research before I built my own CNC
I have an artivle about grouted pads to put in
and bearing selection
I like the leadscrew compensation mechanism you made
les: I HATE YOU!!! (after seeing pics of your workshop =)
thanks...was not my idea....developed about 1820
les: ok I must be blind. where's the cnc stuff on your website?
links -> ...
I've got books of stuff like that - and a buddy of mine has a really old "How Things Work"
well, I got me some really really really cheap torque wrenches
who needs more than Machinery's Handbook?
(and 6 years to read it)
les didnt you say you had design issues section?
[00:26:10] <Jymmm> http://www.lmwatts.com/cnc.html
in the engineering section in links
yes that is some
It gets some hits
les: did you ever start producing your toolholders (in more than 0 quantity :) )
I am trying to do woodworking half the time and machine design engineering half the time
ehat fo you do the other half?
what do ...
SWP: just for me...I use them every day
ah. Ther eare some nice ones on eBay, sold by Lathemaster Auction Specials, I think
the woodworking has been emc made cherry turkey calls haha
but grossing 3000 a week on them
well - that's respectable
so an ok budiness
(I had a bad year last yesr - around 30K total :( )
So I decided to set up a machine shop :)
I went from living off my 401k a couple years ago to what I am doing now
* paul_c is browsing cnczone.....
Hmm. Well - I could live for at leas 42 seconds on savings :)
have a goal of six figures for the year
paul_c: S L O ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo W
I make 6 figures (I count cents to make me feel better)
well 4th quarter 04 people started spending money again
$3000/wk on turkey calls?!
like hunters use?
this ynneb is one sick puppy.
cherry turkey calls
well - at least there's a contest to win some Geckos
that is gross sales
but low overhead
les are you sure these aren't filled with "Wild Turkey" ?!
2 part time employees
les so if they're really lousy hunters, at leastt they won't care.
prob most of them are never actually used
I can truly say I am making an ok living from EMC!
how long is turkey and duck season for?
but I have a good order for all year
cost of inventory is low
just raw material
how does cherry smell in the fireplace? =)
oh...since 75% of the material is waste...I use it for grilling food
the end pieces are ripped into strips and turned into cherry butcher block
again I hate you =)
I SO much would like to have a shop =(
well get one
* Jymmm is in an apartment
I started out when I was 21 with a garage
first stationary tool was a bandsaw
I dont' even mean the tools, just the floorspace
then an atlas 6" metal lathe
I'm allowed to use the lawn shed, but it takes me 20 minutes just to setup my drill press to use it
funny thing...My shop is built on my old farm here...but it is getting too small
becasue of course I'm shaing it
yeah - it was a bitch getting the table saw, tabletop bandsaw, bench sander, DeWalt slide compound miter saw, router table, and the drill press into an apartment garage
(and still fit the minivan)
So I may be faced with moving to a commercial area soon
les well I suspect you have acrage
I have incherage
I have to ask myself though....do I want to live in a factory?
and acherage :)
yes! I would love to have an abandond warehouse...
A 50 foot walk to work is nice
I'd toss in a mezzane, froof top patio
get an old shipping container (and a driveway to put it in)
SWPadnos: no drive for it
well - taht is a problem
SWPadnos yep, even getting ready to steal attic space to hide a compressor and blower
I have a friend outside LA who's going to get a couple of shipping containers and make an office
(Manhattan Beach, I think)
I have not decided yet to build more facilities here...but it is a good problem to have
you need efficiency, not space :)
les cant you toss up those metal bldgs easily enough?
but I don't know if I want one very near my home
oh I have enough room...
just separate them a bit
need 3 phase power...
I think not a big problem
I use a converter now
you need big thick wires for lots-o-3Phase from a rotary converter.
I made the shop stick built near the house...the plan was to convert it to a guest apartment if I outgrew it as a workshop
plumbed and all
so - make a big workshop, and if you outgrow it, open a B&B :)
(post + beam)
I could use 3 or 4 thousnd square feet right now
Well...I'll see if this good economy keeps up
right now I am absolutely swamped
that's a good thing
yes...but bad stress
I always have either too much or too little work - never just right
Those cnczone EMC forums could cause a little bit of damage for us.
yeah it's always that way
paul: how so?
someone posts a question, no one answers...
the poster thinks "Miserable buggers"
well that is easy to fix
gezr: yeah a semi commercial cnc site
* paul_c doesn't have time to monitor yet more forums.
les : hmm
les : it is good to see you on this evening, sounds like things are going well
I monitor it only as little....get some machine design gigs from it sometimes
Gezr: thanks...things are ok other than I am very tired from so much work
I very very badly need a break
I got out in the yard today, and pulling up the little weed stalks with the not open yet sead pods was just ripe for the lawn mower, so my lawn is sorta strange looking, and the neighbors are 100% sure im nuts, it was raining a bit, but the stalks are gone :)
Things are just starting to grow here
although snow is pridicted tonight
and my cheap harbor freight torque wrenches seems okay, I could probably never spend enough to feel comfortable with a torque wrench, so Im sure what I got will be fine
you can always calibrate em with a fish scale
its just scary
not knowing, wether the 64 you spent instead of 300 will do the job
Mine are cheap ones....but they were close enough
For machine stuff fasteners are ususally torqued up to about 80% of yield
im sure the same exists for this bike, who knows, if it comes apart I am the only one to blame :)
on a lot of car stuff "yield in place" is used....torqued beyond yield
so the wrench does not have to be accurate
material properties of the fastener determine the final clamping force
yeah thats true, I figure if im +/-20% it isnt going to matter
testing/callibration only matters for the testing
"it was within .0001 accuracy when we tested it. You shouldn't be having any problems, it could be your tooling"
That's like my lab grade surface plates....
graded in a lab, now they are but fancy table tops?
a one degree F temp difference between the top and bottom is enough to spoil the lab grade spec
so they really are not that good in practice
just a light shining on them will do that
all things are I guess meant to be as good as they can be, tested, and then sold to the masses to produce the best results they can
Well with stuff like cars and such a bit different
like spc and iso 9001:2000
ball screws can be too good, made at 68F, they just gall them selfs to pieces in your 78f shop
which I may need soon
things aren't tested at all
(not the final product)
wouldnt your buyer determine what level of process you use?
* gezr doesnt see a hunter thinking "oh yeah, that call is iso 9001 certed, its a better call"
For the industries I mentioned stuff is "six sigma"
that is the cert I would love to be trained in
Well, I may need to get the shop certified for that
cost a bunch
lets hope they dont push that upon you
certs of any kind easily double the cost of a production line
I was reading about it today
I'm more used to the UL / CSA / CE / FCC realm, but it's all expensive
I have a good bit of experience with the old spc programs
Have done several UL/CSA on my products
and an FAA STC
It's funny - at my first business, we designed an entire radio remote control system
complete with custom aluminum extrusions
custom 6-color keypad
all radio / electronic / software desicn
and we went to a trade show (including booth and travel fees)
all for $25000
S**** Looks like the upload of the BDI-4.18 terminated early.
(late August through early December - a whirlwind 3 months)
That included me going to New York to buy custom crystal oscillators
Well this encoder I designed for my old company rean about double that
(had to sit at the company until they handed them over :) )
Oh yeah - we did nothing the "right way" - no deign docs, specs, testing, etc.
design, not deign
These days, I tell people that a board design for a saleable product is between $50-100K or more, depending on complexity
yes sounds about right
There are always prototypes, FedEx, revisions, problems, "oops- that's not what I meant", etc.
all said and done the encoder will be about that
right - I'll save this so I can show it to the next customer that complains :)
I am just late on the factory testing machines
working on them tommorow
It's funny - we were going to bid on doing a temerature sensor for General Dynamics armament systems division
the budget was $80K, and we thought - $80k for a temp. sensor - we can do that!
well - we looked at the specs, and decided not to bid :)
SWPadnos: Uploading to your machine.
meant for use on a tank, in all weather conditions, on an arm that sxwings down from the tank turret...
paul_c: OK - let's see how that works.
had to have dust filters that couldn't be clogged (dual, with reversing fans to clear dust/sand)
My next scheduled engineering project is a device to make high voltage from compressed air for a powder spray gun
SWPadnos: Should be uploaded by 14:00GMT
OK - 2.5 hours expected?
working that in between turkey call production
a high voltage turkey call
high electric field (electrostatics), or high power/high voltage
I'm going to call it a night - Tomorrow, may do some more with realtimeio.c
100kv/meter, only 6 watts
OK - good night. I'll try to do some EMC stuff this week.
(other than pester you with questions)
Just for Les: http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/cdzap.html
I also have to to a turkey call premium product line...
in other words incorporate inlays and figured wood into the product
cnc of course
have you seen CNC Toolkit?
There's a Yahoo group - CNC_Toolkit
what's it about?
It's a plug-in for GMax (a free 3D design program) that generated 5-axis G-Code
sounds like rab gordon's stuff
There's a guy who's recently been making custom pool cues with it
oh I know rab
I haven't played with it much, but it looks like it would do exactly what you want
[01:30:06] <SWPadnos> http://classiccustomwood.com/Rope.htm
Well right now we make a turkey call in about 2 minutes....
even better - http://classiccustomwood.com/Double%20helix.htm
sells for $5.25 wholesale
It'll take longer with custom stuff, obviously
this would be inlayed and stuff
sell for $25?
look at the second link
the difficulty with inlay is that you have to cut out the hoole, then the inlay preferably from the same shape of wood), then actually put it in, carefully
yeah that sort of stuff
yeah - not $195 nice, but still nice
that would be not too far from the premium turkey call msrp
we use the old 5:1 rule
I suppose there's a *very* high end for almost everything
msrp=man cost X5
My old company (I was a co-founder, but left a few years ago) makes near-consumer electronics
it's sad to see the marketing company get more than the manufacturer
I may end up with emc doing 2 min of carving
and a worker doing half an hour of inlay stuff
I have to figure that out
yeah - that's not a great situation
oh and a car quality finish
unless you inlay something other than wood, you're probably going to be stuck in that boat though
will use a painting robot
have you seen a magnetic parts finisher?
(not that it would be good for wood)
well if I can make 50% net variable margin on having people do stuff...I'll hire them
magnetic? no have not seen
hmmm. ther ewas one on eBay around 8 months ago - I bid on it but didn't win
(plus it was several hundred pounds in CA.)
I have the several hundred pound s in cal problem often
apparently, it's a method of finishing which provides a high polish, uses stainless pins in a plastic bowl
underneath is a rapidly spinning magnetic field
whips the pins all over the place, and they polish the surfaces, including inside threads (if you use small enough pins)
like a vibratory tumbler, but using magnets to propel the media
Lemme see if I still have a link...
Well I have a sanding work station which consists of a special chuck and a sevo
would also use that with automotive rubbing compound for the premium ones
the parts are round
right - spin the part, but that leaves streaks
certain streaks we want
very fine ones
it gives an opalescent quality
you saw the pictures right?
right - but don't you want those to be in varying directions?
no concentric looks the best
just the furniture, not the turkey calls
gives a nice shimmer effect
usually it is rubbed out in straight lines
I mean I saw furniture photos, not turkey calls
[01:44:27] <les> http://www.dynamiccalls.com/Catalog.htm
all made with emc
but those are just semi gloss finished
(I must say, I don't know enough about turkey hunting to recognize the calls :) )
the premium ones would be rubbed out
heh..I have never been turkey hunting
I just make the stuff
I recognize the dead turkey head though
yeah - I'm not a photographer, but I've made radio controls for them :)
well anyway...tommorow I need to finish and ship the usb production testers for my encoder
What type of encoder?
[01:49:24] <les> http://lmwatts.com/v-web/b2/
does the tester go through temperature and other environmental conditions?
no just linearity
used in a controlled temp environment
I have temp compensation on the product
OK. People say automotive, and I imediately think -40 - 140 degrees C :)
the first picture is the tester
I thought it went above +85 (I was just going to question whether it was +100 or not)
the second is the product
Ah yes - one of the photos during the BDI install :)
somr under hood goes past +85
what has paul put on there?
I think so - get a BDI-4.16 ot later :)
(doesn't say what it is though)
well that's cool
all that stuff was made with emc
you did the board etching as well?
and we have 100k units/year sold
les: I meant to ask you earlier... do you have pics of stuff you've done with EMC both finsihed and WIP ?
do a BDI install
Jymmm: the link I just posted was done with emc
les: sorry, I meant wood
( or he can do a BDI install :) )
the sign link at my web site has stuff that is all emc
les: have you ever thought of any designs for a very small fast spindle?
for milling wax, plastic, wood
on a budget?
MSC/Enco has a 60,000 rpm air pencil grinder for about 50 bucks
I picked up a couple of nice small 2-axis servo mechanisms, was thinking about making a desktop size machine
really small and not too powerful: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3876707702
MUST use oil mist lube with it
don't want air - want a portable machine, 110V power
SWP's link might be neat...I have been looking at that guy's stuff
that looks really nice
might be just the ticket
damn - look at this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3877160125
that's way too big for my needs, but nice
yeha - pretty big
the othe rone can only take 1/8" shaft tools
the axis mechanism I have is here: http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/miniservo1.jpg
looks neat...just bookmarked it
Incidentally, a"high end" Dremel could be the ticket as well.
19.1V pittmann motors, 1/4" diameter x 1/4" lead screw for Z, 3.3" travel
maybe - I don't like dremels tho
what do you want to use it for?
mostly demo and testing, but possibly for milling wax models (jewelry, my wife's interest) or engraving
the mechanism has 0.0001" resolution on the long axis and 0.00016" on the short one
I don't have a dremel. Silly reason...you know those little 1" circular razor saws for it?
yeah.. nasty little devils
Hmmmm, I'm condering this http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3877575376&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcN__Stores
I buried one in my hand once. Spent night in emergency room triage...blood spurting on shop ceiling etc
take a look at this dremel model - it may be better than some of the others: http://www.dremel.com/productdisplay/Display.asp?SKU=398
but don't put it through your hand :)
I have the 30KRPM model
I went into shock.
which is silly
Jymmm: that's from the same guy as the one I posted - it's an earlier model with the drive screw
but I did.
well - blood loss and things like that will do that to you
SWPadnos is it any good/worth it?
I don;t know - Les and John don't seem to think it's shite
I just figure "Hey here's a Z with rotary" all in one shot
look at the second one I posted, if you want to see a big honker
I kinda like the ebay motors... the dremel's don't get me excited...
too noisy, not that well balanced, and nasty shape to try to mount
I dont like dremel brushes mostly
* jmkasunich doesn't think much of "universal" motors
yeah - the whining is pretty annoying
I would love to have a brushless motor
There was an item on eBay called a "Tapmatic Drill Speeder"
it was a 6.25x spindle for use in a drill press or milling machine
was looking on the web, some RC flying folks are rewinding CDROM drive motors and replacing the plastic magnet ring with rare earth magnets to get motors approaching 75W, but very small, light and fast
I see these sewing machien motors attached to hi-speed spindles, but nfc in the spindels
never heard watts used to describe hp in an electoric motor before.
all the time - 1HP = 746 watts
John: remember that rc car I had on the shelf in the office?
SWPadnos: ok, fair enough =)
The one we used to test suspensions?
anonimasu, sorry, I was away. I'll make links to the TTF files as well.
it has a 100 amp motor and PWM drive
jmkasunichL well if you want cdrom drives, let me know how many pallets =)
only runs a minute or two
yeah, les... RC folks do some wild stuff
(unsorted) http://184.108.40.206/Fonts/engravable http://220.127.116.11/Fonts/NOT
[02:13:29] <jmkasunich> http://www.littlescreamers.com/products.htm
nice link...always looking for more true type fonts
that's my computer... and I'm still sorting.
But - what does a 'G' look like in all those fonts? :)
where do you get these fonts?
danfalck, online... all over the place. 1000freefonts.com or 1000fonts.com something like that.
That motor video is nuts....a little smaller than the car ones...but I can tell from the sound that the rpm is WAY upthere
prob a good fraction of a hp too
which video is that?
the ones under the specs table
the streaming video on the littlescreamers link
I don't have video on the linux box
bet it's 20-30k rpm
* jmkasunich switches to the win box
I don't see how he has sttitude control on that
I'm still tryign to figure out where the servos were on it
I think even a stock CDROM motor will go to 10000RPM plus... I think normal CDROM speed is about 300 RPM, so a 48X drive would be going pretty darn fast
Kenwood had a 72x drive, but I think that was some buffering / compression trick
I think CDs come apart at 20k or so (there are some good videos on this subject :) )
dumb question... is there any way to cut using a router table.... cut as into pieces as example.
like a horitonally mount jigsaw head
We cut out thingd in a "cracker panel"....leaving a small web to hold things together
the parts just pop out
jjmk did you see that video? Those motors would be good for small engravers
took a while to download and get it going, but yes
unfortunately, they don't give any specs other than the few on that page
$50 for the motor... I dunno if that includes the controller or not
prob sleeve bearings
I suspect that's just the motor
I dunno - most of the folks selling rewound CDROM motors use ball bearings
they talk about having a "brushless ready airframe"
I used to try to fly rc planes
WEll, he had to use a rc srvo of some sort
for the control I mean
I LOVED the poly battery he had
I can fly bigger ones ok though
the screamers site seems very hype-ey... there are other folks selling similar motors and/or kits, for less money
But those light low moment of inertia brushless ones might be very good for engraving
The car ones approach one HP peak
with that rpm power comes in a small package
"Are you happy to see me or have a engraver in your pocket?"
for jewelry and stuff gang up about ten of em
cheaper than westwind air spindles
* Jymmm still needs to find bits for that kind of stuff
pcb router bits
[02:38:21] <jmkasunich> http://www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net/motors.htm
I have some .01" diam carbide end mills
are resharpened bits like those "ok" ?
a _400_ watt motor made from an old floppy drive - 10K RPM, 35A
half a hp
jmkasunich: I have a Baldor DC servo that might work for you
it's 50 oz-in, 5kRPM
Jymmm: they work fine for me
les: where do you find .01 mills?
The total power is 40V * 5.5A = 220 W
(peak of 30A)
one company has .0005" diam end mils!!!! have not tried them
with some gearing, it might do the trick
les: eeeesh.... the beam size on some of the lasers I've been looking at are only .003
The smallest end mill I routinely use is .02
I use it for engraving electronic panels
the .01 is fragile
SWPadnos: thanks for the offer on the baldor, but 5K is pretty slow for this
I think I may take a shot at one of those CDROM motors
jmkasunich as-is, or rewired?
well - 1:4 gearing would help with that :)
* Jymmm has junk cdrom around here somewhere =)
Hm...I have a BUNCH of floppy drives I pulled apart - I guess I'll give making one of these a try
* jmkasunich wonders about the motors in harddrives... high quality bearings there...
I just keep thinking about that video...I guess little electric hummingbird things that can hover around you and take hi res video are a practical reality
10K rpm harddrives aren't uncommon
I'd like to play with RC jets... just not land them though... as I know I wouldn't be able to.
how could I control the motor out of a cdrom/hdd/floppy ?
oops, I scrolled up. :)
Jymmm, VDC... PWM, or amount of voltage. :)
oh, floppies are steppers. so with a driver.
HDs don't go beyond 15kRPM, and they take a while to get there.
SWPadnos, are we talking IDE? or scsi?
SWPadnos for free, I can wiat the 10.5 seconds
I haven't seen SCSI beyond 15K
Jymmm: well - that means there isn't a lot of torque there
so you may not be able to do anything except watch your tool cut air
well, anyone to gang a bunch of them together?
SWPadnos, but isn't cutting air AWESOME?
Frankly, I'd *love* to see some air cutting right now :)
don't need much torque if rpm is high
(trying to get USC / ppmcio driver to work on BDI-4)
(then make motor mounts)
ha...with my production I am trying to get air cutting to an absolute minimun
the reason disks take so long to spin up is the large inertia
not a big issue for a spindle?
true - a 5" platter has needs a lot more rotational energy than a 1/16" cutting tool
total weight of a spindle will probably be less than a stack of disks
(sorry - 3.5" platter these days)
and it will be at a much smaller raius
get rid of the square term of radius and they would spin up fast
Ok, now the question is.... how to make a spindle ?
to use these on
what are the cutting forces like at those speeds? (say in aluminum)
for 1/8" bits/mills
cutting forces are low
a few pounds
for engraving on wood aluminum
don't you still want the same chip thickness?
(as normal machining)
well - that would help then
unless you do high speed machining
right - that's what I'm thinking about - zip -zip-done
with that you have normal chip load
I'm talking engraving brass/wooden coins and such
but put 50 hp into a 1/2 end mill
and it'll melt
funny thing...after a point the chips become the coolant
I noticed that things got really easy after a certain feedrate
I was milling a 1" deep slot in aluminum, using a 1/2" endmill
I have seen it...it's really wild
crank at low speed, and it was hard - speed up a little, and it cut like butter
cutting AL at 300 ipm
I just needed a third hand to operate the Vacuum
(to clear chips)
I try to use as High a chip load as possible
cutters stay sharp longer
yeah - no sense cutting 1000 thin pieces wwhen 500 thick ones will do
A $50 carbide cutter lasts one day for me
That's one thing I was considering adding to EMC - a tool speed/feed calculator
That is why I quickly set up a sharpening jig
6 hrs or so is doing good
is carbide ideal for wood (or would some cobalt or other thing be better)?
C2 carbide is good...diamond may be better
(there's another $250 a week, down the drain)
wow... just opened up an old SCSI drive... 10 platters!
dude - ST4096 anyone?
the old workhorse 80M SCSI drive
this ain't that old... 18GB
Well...I can now resharpen the flanks of spiral cutters at least 5 times....and that saves a lot of money
5.25" full height, full length,. two would weigh as much as a minitower these days
The diamond cup wheel cost only $100
using mostly the ends, not the sides?
using mostly the sides (flanks)
ah - does the diameter change a lot when you dsharpen?
I lose about .001 each time
must compensate in software for some cuts
others it does not matter
would roller blade bearins work for making a spindle?
many are abec 7
rollerblade bearings are abec7?
but a good choice
* Jymmm with he knew what abec7 referenced =)
better than ABEC 2
I'm thinking of a spindle that takes either 1/8 or 3/32 shank tools
SWPadnos: Family fued "Good answer, good answer"
OD would be 1/4 or 3/8 in the bearing area
(American Bearing Engineering Council or something like that)
usually bearings are either abec 1 or 7 these days
not much in betweeen
MSC also has ABEC5, I believe
McMastercarr sells abec 5 in those sizes, for not to much (around $10)
ok what does the number represent '7' ?
speed ratings up to 40-70Krpm, depending on size
it represents the loading you can put on the bearing
7= about .0001 radial runout
I thought abec ratings were accuracy/runout, etc
hmmm... now for a jaw
requires similarly accurate machining of the houding
abec 1= about .0004 radial runout
for small bearings
off the wall idea for a 1/8 shank "collet":
use compression fitting sleeves
jmkasunich: a dremel collet?
collets are often a problem for me
interesting - looking at MSC, the "loading" of a crap bearing (6204 size, just for reference) is around 70 pounds. A nice ABEC7 precision bearing is around 12,700
go figure :)
they last only a couple weeks in production
(prices: $5 or $188)
SWP....for a 6204 it should be similar for both grades
[03:21:36] <jmkasunich> http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=122
see the sleeves at the bottom right of the page?
well - they have some total crap imports that aren't. There were some that were in the middle - around 6K
I have the 3 volume bearing institute encyclopedia here...I'll hunt it up
machine the spindle nose with a precise 1/8 hole for the tool shank, and a taper and thread for a sleeve and nut from a compression fitting
please ... don't :)
sleeves are $0.15 each, can affort to compress one onto each tool
jmkasunich: sinc ethe ID on skate bearings is 1/4", what about useing brass rod (or tube w/ thick wall) and threading the end and then your idea?
I'd probably use steel, not brass
I wish I had a way to bore it,
damn... looks like they _glued_ the disks to the motor... drat
1/8" is a pretty small hole to bore
jmkasunich: oh hell no.... smacj that sucker it'll come out
that's what the blowtorch is for :)
one good wack!
jmkasunich oh, did you remove the screws?
I'd like the motor and bearings intact
no screws on this one - two E-rings, one on top and one on bottom
jmkasunich: they ALWAYS have screws. you just have to find them
until this one, I would have agreed with you
sometimes they're not that obvoius
it's nickle plated platters, toss a wide blade screwdriver between the platters and turn
tried that... platters bent to hell, still on hub
jmkasunich then start searching for those screws
I have NEVER been able to bend a platter that easily
ok, I get 12,700N (2860 lbf) dynamic load for a 6204 regardless of abec grade
jmkasunich this one doesn't have "Tonka" written on it does it? =)
no screws, just a hellofa press fit on the ring that holds the stack together
it finally popped after I went 3/4 of the way around with the big honkin screwdriver
found it - cool high speed machining video: http://www.datrondynamics.com/VideoZone/Videos340kb/HighSpeedH.wmv
gawd I need to rebuild my desktop machine... but I dont have 5 days to spare
hmmm - I just searched MSC for bearings, entered the bore / outer diameters and thickness, then borwsed.
Get a new one and multitask :)
cool video...wild isn't it?
HUGE power on that tool
I believe it - 60kRPM spindle
actually, they say it's only a 290W spindle
it must not be the same machine
290 kW mabye haha
25-50 hp is typical of what I have seen
if you go th their homepage, and click on the cheap ($46,800) miniraptor, they sae 290W...
must be a mistake
they have bigger ones, so the video may be from a different machine
still - the largest spindle they have is 2kW
"What's the big deal about that video, I do that by hand all day long using my 9.6V makita cordless drill."
well - I guess you can save the $46,800 then
now you can buy that new computer with all the money you saved.
well, getting late... gotta pack for a work trip tomorrow
OK - see you later
I'm gonna hit the sack too
It's as rainy night in georgia
good plan - it's getting late here in the east
couple more degrees and it will be a snawy night
night all - gotta get to this accounting some day :(
* Jymmm comes back and everyone has left?!
hit here - thanks
hi there - how's that :)
works for me
actually, I'm just setting up logging, in case anything interesting happens before I make it out of bed tomorrow
I think I'm really gonna try the cdrom spindel
that should be interesting.
check it out =) http://www.yourtooltime.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TAHS&Product_Code=4486C&Category_Code=MMC
maybe instead of jmk's brass fitting suggestion.
you think direct drive or rubber band?
I like rubber bands
the only part I dont like about them is the pulleys
heh - those chucks are $9.99 at Home Depot.
yep, that guys has 21K 100% feedback on ebay
where low prices are just the beginning there's the low quality too!
SWPadnos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) program AVRs in C bychance?
(assembly is so much more fun :) )
if fun you mean head aches...
I have a hard head
I think what I'm attempting is out of my experience.
well - that's how you learn
level of experience.
oh - well that could be a problem :)
A-L-P-H-A: World Domination?
no - that's the Mayflowers
* Jymmm sends A-L-P-H-A "World Domination For Dummies"
I get the blinking lights, I get the incrementation of 32 bit values (via overflow) in an 8bit system.
but, atmel classics don't have nice WORD functions.
that just makes them a little slower (and you might have to add some extra crap around multibyte move instructions)
I understand the binary math, on paper... but implementing them that's the hard part.
for instance, you can't SBIS over a word move in the non-megas
what I have is just a single instruction to get my RPM value.
the division routines are weird
add / sub / shift /AND / OR / XOR are easy
MUL is also easy (and even better on the megas, since there's actually a MUL instruction)
if I shift right, I divide by two. right? with whatever the first binary digit being the remainder
shift right again, 4. again 8... etc.
the "remainder" ends up in the carry
division is futile you will be approximated!
shift for modulus???? Interesting
works great for powers of 2
not so great for every other number
k, if I shift left, I multiple by 2... with the carry figured in.
carry is "added"
great for powers of two yes.
we shoould cut off 8 fingers on everyone then computer science would make a lot more sense to the general population
you have to be careful to use logical shift on the first byte, and rotate on the rest
There are 10 types of people in the world that understand binary.
(unless you want bits to drop off the bottom and end up on the top of your number)
now, what I need to do... is figure RPM... via clock cycles between input pulses. each input pulse is 1rev. So that's clockcycles * 60sec / CystalSpeed. which would be in my case 10MHz.
and those that don't
you can slow down the counter - use a different prescaler value
I can slow.
clock dividing is easy in hardware
especially when the hardware has a clock divider :)
yeah, I can change the CK, or the crystal.
either works for me.
nah you just divide the system clock
CK is the prescaler for the timerclock.
no - you use a prescaler on the timer - then all instructions are at full speed, but the counter/timer counts slower
pfred1, this is in regards to the atmels.
SWPadnos, 'ight, that works for me...
A-L-P-H-A amtel doesn't let you put other chips onboard with it?
my issue is the implementation, not really the math.
no reason to, plus you would end up slowing doen all operations
seems kinda restrictive to me ...
A-L-P-H-A you're using a prefabbed board?
I can increase the prescaler, that isn't a issue.
pfred1, trying to do 1 chip design... this is a digital tachometer. learning and trying to make something useful to me.
A-L-P-H-A so you're making the board?
the input is a IR LED and dect. with an 7404 to clean the signal to an ATMEL to an HD47780 LCD.
A-L-P-H-A well one thing I've learned is don't rack myself over elegance when a sledgehammer will do the job
it's just not worth it
the clck probably doesn't need to be slowed down, plus it's a one-line change to do it in software
sticking points: implementation of math (not the math itself). Implementation of HEX to ascii (which I have the logic done as well)
SWPadnos, 3 bits. :)
heck there's LEDs with that built in
on one line. :)
and it's desirable to keep the system clock faster, since the conversion of a 32-bit number to ASCII is actually pretty time-consuming
pfred1, none that I could find affordable, and do 20K rpm. :)
anyway, what's the *real* problem? :)
and if it's just numbers why do you need ascii?
SWPadnos, I'll post my psuedo... sec.
Hex? or 32-bit binary?
because it's displayed on a text LCD
I was making digital counters when I was like 12
man there has to be a driver chip for the display
[06:46:23] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.pastebin.com/247260
BTW I'd imagine LCD would be pretty crappy in a shop angle of view and all of that
pfred1, uh, there is... it's called a HD47780
pfred1, that I don't know yet. :)
is power that much of an issue?
power to which?
the LCD is in his shop, free
I don't think it's a power issue
LCD = $14USD with shipping.
yeah that's it set yourself up for all kinds of work to save $2
this whole thing could be powered easily with a 9V battery... heh
Ah - almost free :)
heck LED would be cheaper then
way easier to work with i know that
I could do this via the atmel right now, via just dumping 5 bytes to the computer. and let the computer handle it all. heh.
and no simpler or less expensive, since the drivers are WAY more expensive
via an MAX232 connection.
looks sexier in a retro sort of a way too
just send out the the 4 registers, and a $00 byte.
you can multiplex LEDs use one decoder
if you're really damned cheap
but it is dim
and a pain logically
you still have to add power drivers
or a MAX7219-style chip
pfred1, a 10K RPM digital tackometer = $250CDN + 15% tax. My atmel + LCD + board = $20CND or so.
PLUS I learn stuff.
which also needs the binary converted to decimal (or at least BCD)
and it does what I WANT. And should be more than 10+ RPM without issue.
the amtel can't just output BCD?
I don't know what BCD is.
so - one thing to do is keep numbers as large as possible, until you need to reduce them to size
binary coded decimal
numbers we're used to
that keeps more precision in the calculation (unless the numbers are so large they overflow)
oh I have code for the BIN2BCD.
6bc rpm doesn't make a whole lotta sense to too many people
it's someone elses code.
it's scary when it does start making sense though!
it works fine for RPM<=9
SWPadnos, with the 32 bit counter I have, it goes for 7.15SEC... so well within good stuff.
I got a tach for a car once in radioshack digital
wasn't too much money
hooked to the ignition coil
was a clock and a thermometer too!
probably couldn't show anything below 100 RPM though
yeah was 10X scale as I can recall
probably just a matter of cutting a trace on the board to drop it down
that BIN2BCD doesn't look like it'll work
have you tested it?
SWPadnos, no, but I have someone's tidbit of code that will. :)
Ah - I see :)
The example you give definitely won't work.
yeah it can't be that hard to code something to convert binary to BCD
but I know the general principal of the conversion.
tho a chip to do it is like 49 cents
remember that this is in integer land - any time you get something to the right of the decimal point, cut it off
pfred1, the excercise it to accomplish a simple elegant design.
not for 32-bit numbers
SWPadnos, unless I want to store them elsewhere...
A-L-P-H-A yeah as you age you'll get broken of that nonsense!
(so the 250k / 10M) = 0.25 actually = 0
then I'll have no accuracy what so ever then. :(
A-L-P-H-A do something if it's fun do it a dozen times the elegance should come if it doesn't well still should have been fun
true if you use that algorithm
dang it... in C, this would be like 50 lines max.
A-L-P-H-A heck most crap first time out I try to hack it up that way I figure i got a lot of room for improvement :)
but if you make sure you can multiply everything that needs nultiplication, then divide by everything else, it should be better
yeah, but it wouldn't fit in a 2313
A-L-P-H-A machine assembler is an exersize in patience isn't it?
hence it's clock cycles x 60 / 10,000,000
(yo'd need the math library, which is probably larger than a 4414
A-L-P-H-A starting to see why sometimes it's nice to just slap a few more chips on a board?
pfred1, well... I did get 80%+ in my assembly course in uni.
no, pfred1 that's not necessary.
and to be honest, you're getting a little annoying
SWPadnos nothing is necessary beyond food clothering and shelter in my experience
SWPadnos, what's that number?
pfred1, love, friends.
4414 may not even be available any more - it's the 4K part
A-L-P-H-A you get cold and hungry you can lose htose real fast or trade them
there's a mega2313 that's pin compatible with the 2313, I think - hold on a sec
SWPadnos, are we talking math-co-proc?
I think that's BRAND new.
no - just a different AVR
nope - sorry, just tinys and the 2313s
anyway, this is completely doable in the 2313
It's a little harder though, because the multiplication routines are a bit longer
only reason why I'm using a 2313 is because I have 17 of them... probably more
that's as good a reason as any
I have routines for 16 bit multiplycation.
heh a really bad way to determine design
for a product, that's true
when you got a hammer everything starts looking like a nail
for a project, it's perfect
for a project, this 2313 can do lots.
and fr a product, anything bigger would be a waste of production money
live stack, real ram, ttl output pins.
two interrupts, two internal timers.
it's got lots to offer.
and is already overkill for this application.
serial port, analog comparator
here's a tach using a pic http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1028/102835_10mg.jpg
well - if a PIC can do it, absolutely any microcontroller can do it
that PIC has more than double the pins of the 2313
they're using an op amp to buffer the input
SWPadnos, I could do this right now... have it as 60,000,000 sub count, until remainder < count.
man this thing's pretty cool
but how elegant is that.
I'd use the /8 prescaler mode for the timer (you're using timer1, right?)
then look at it in minutes from the start:
you get X cycles per revolution
A-L-P-H-A I don't care how rube something is thate's always the thrill of accomplishment
you have Y cycles per minute (not per second)
so RPM is X / Y
even the worst job the act of doing it you'll come up with tons more than the same effort of planning
so what's less effecient?
Y = 600 million if you use no prescaler
SWPadnos, but then that's only good, if I'm following, when I have a measuring phase of 60 seconds.
It might even be better to use the /64 mode - that'll give you roughly 10M clock ticks cycles per minute
no - the cycles cancel out, and you're left with revolutions per minute
A-L-P-H-A humans don't like displays updated nearly as much as you may think they do
(CYC / REV) / (CYC / MIN) = REV / MIN
maybe twice a second
or it's "jittery"
ahh! I see.
this ain't Quake and frames per second ya know?
then you're left with one precalculated value, and one division in the program
but what's what I've got now, esscentially... like 60,000,000 / cycle counts.
in this case, with no prescaler.
right - you can do it that way as well - just fold the 10MHz clock and the 60sec/min into a single 600M constant
but, if you dont get a count of at least 600M, you'll have a zero reading - lemme think a sec.
well, my thing is the division... so I could do division by repetitive subtraction.
SWPadnos, wouldn't I have that covered in a timeout of the clock counter.
I have a 32-bit division routine that takes 664 cycles max (on a mega - it'll be a little longer on a 90S...)
664 cycles = 0.0000664 seconds. no problem.
rihgt - you may be able to do some averaging
what is that? 60 uS?
0.06ms. absolutely no problem.
doesn't it take like 4ms to display a character anyways on an LCD?
I think it does.
it's around 40 uS max to write each character
several ms to clear the screen or reposition the cursor
k, so it's on par with calculating this.
(cursor may not be that long - it's been a while since I've looked at that datasheet)
the 32-bit BIN->ASCII conversion will be a relatively long one, but way faster than 10 divisions
A-L-P-H-A if you don't take into account a reasonable scrrn refresh rate this thing will be totally unreadable!
pfred1, that's understandable.
anyting past maybe 2 updates a second is rough
I'd suggest not clearing the screen after initialization.
reserve 40 bytes (yes - a third! :) ) of the RAM as a buffer for the LCD
[07:21:23] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.crystalfontz.com/products/2004a/CFAH2004AYYBJP.pdf
then output the full buffer to get an update
lcd speeds. [not my display]
SWPadnos yeah that's how I eventually learned how to build displays buffer the data then gate it to the display
SWPadnos, not an issue, considering I don't even us any ram so far.
that's got a pretty fast clear
well - you'll be using a little for the BIN->ASCII conversion (though you can point that into the buffer somewhere)
A-L-P-H-A to me microcontrollers are overkill I do stuff with plain old TTL
TTL is too expensive these days, since many microcontrollers are $1.50 or less (the 2313 is $3.66 in single quantities from DigiKey)
SWPadnos it's rare i need to actually buy a chip
eBay is even a cheaper source, if you can find them online.
I have tens of thousands of them
but I thought what you have on the bench isn't an appropriate design criteria :)
oh that's not to say that i won't buy a chip or haven't it's just the cost is not a factor
cost should never be a factor in a project if it's too expensive don't do it
if it's worth doing it's worth paying for
Ha - there's the problem!
I had nmanaged to invert my equation
so, explain to me, if I can make a highspeed spindle, I should go and pay $5K for one, while doing it myself, could cost like $200?
and didn't even notice
A-L-P-H-A well how long would it take for you to make and how good would it be?
(CYC/MIN) / (CYC/REV) = REV/MIN
so you take the 600million constant, and divide it by the count from the timer
pfred1, that's not a discussion I'm going into.
SWPadnos, yup, already have that.
(/me is tired - it's 2:35 AM here)
A-L-P-H-A well can't answer your question then
trying to figure out how how many clock cycles I would need, if I were to do division through repeated subtraction.
it's O(N), not O(log n)
A-L-P-H-A lots of clocks use line frequency as their timebase hint hint
have you joined AVR freaks yet?
you always knew power was delivered at 60 cps for a reason huh?
now you know why!
your line time is so accurate it'd make your hair stand on end to know just how accurate it is
for your silly tach it's more ahan adequete a timebase
Actually, it's because Nikola Tesla invented some generators that nobody could figure out, so when they went to duplicate them, they didn't want to change anything. They happened to be at 60Hz, and it stuck.
helps on the division just a touch too don't it?
have you looked at Appnote 200?
SWPadnos yeah right sure
SWPadnos it's because they got real good tachs at the power station
they deliver 60Hz (in the US), and they're required to provide you with the right number of cycles per second.
if they miss one in one second, they're obligated to deliver an extra one the next second.
yup and most plug in clocks run off it
it's a hell of an accurate timebase
second only to TV carrier waves
the origin is as I said, I believe. There's no reason to think that 60 Hz is any better than 50 Hz
it is when you're figuring out stuff ot the second
(in fact, 50 would be better, since 1/50 is an integer)
1/60 gives a repeating decimal
most of us only care about a second
saw that appnote this morning, but I didn't look into too much cause it was 16bit, not 32. it has 32bit results, but not math.
ah - so it is. Well - I can see about splitting off my math routines for you.
you gotta admit 80 cps is a hell of a lot closer to what you need to work with than 10 MHz
or even 120
but it wouldn't be as accurate at high speeds
need to find this track... "HEar my name" armin van helden.
yeah this tach is a dual timebase slicer deal
you slice the 60 cps with the 10 MHz and window out your data
going back to my computer/desktop
vnc through laptop to desktop right now.
well that's how this sort of a thing is normally done at anyrate
the microcontroler can manage it. It could certainly be run on a slower clock - like 1 Hz or less
1 MHz, that is
one other hting I've noticed no matter what circuit I've wanted to build recently if i look on the net long enough i find it
I haven't actually designed something from scratch in a long time
the net is an amazzing resource
yeah I am at the point where i know that I'll never build everything i want to that's already available
when i cough buy some more op amps i need next is another guitar amp
building amplifiers is an addiction
excel is useless... it only allows for 8bit binary operations.
I'm lucky - I don't have that one :)
you can stop after "excel is useless"
you can use windows calculator
you make one it's little tiny distorty but you're like wow pretty soon you're looking at things in TO-3 packages going yeah
that's what I resorted to.
that'll crack the foundation
no - they exist
sure the myth is what they are capable of
they can havea very good sound "warm" most people think
for real power you gotta semiconduct
they're not perfectly accurate reproducers of waveforms
hmm... I found a link a few weeks ago, that was selling beech wood amp knobs for like $500 bucks each.
but hten the human ear isn't a perfect receiver of wavefoems either
yup it's a scam no doubt
too cheap for my blood
ignorance is a great thing to capitalize on
Osmium - that's what I want
all the people running around thinking tubes are still viable
and there are lots of them!
OK would you run your motor drivers with tubes?
people would laugh you out of a forum for even trying!
would you run your amp with a motor driver?
(or your speakers?)
if it was giving me the sound i wanted
speakers are motors
exactly - so if a tube amp gives someone the sound they want, they should have a tube amp
but you don't have to have one
if it's not your preference
no they shouldn't because tubes are not and haven't been for quite some time a commodity consumer item
the tubes you get today are crap
evne if at one time they did have this mystical warm sound
trust me transistor tech blows tubes away
Radio Shack just stopped selling tubes last year or the year before.
in every respect
Except to those who prefer the sound of a tube amp
if you really want some antique sound they make digital modelers today you can sound like whatever you want
to them, it doesn't sound as good
in a double blind test they'd never pick a tube over a transistor amp
they'd prefer the transistor for it's punch
tubes are mush
but if you like mush undrerate the power supply transformer so it sags
presto tube sag
use a crappy speaker
SWPadnos RS tube are available by special order
believe me I've researched all of this and worked with it tube stuff is a myth propigated by a boutique industry to profit on people's ignorance
if the greats had had transistor equipment back in their days they wouldn't evne have considered tubes
pfred1: Nope, tubes are far better than Q's
the oscope never lies
Ah - I couldn' tremember if they just got rid of them in the stores or what
SWPadnos: moons ago.
analysis of tube vs. tansistor amplification: http://www.milbert.com/tstxt.htm
they barely have any components anymore
yeah - just a few sliding drawers worth
I'm not sure what route I should go with this right now, try and figure out 32bit math with ASM, or just move over to C.
and then every color of illuminated USB cable you could ever want
all radio shack wants to do today is saddle you with a satelite TV subscription maybe sell you a moble phone plan
RS used to be a neat place, too sad.
I think C won't work. Wait until tomorrow - I'll post a few math routines
yeah all they want to do today is make money just like everyone else
like the tube pushers
if ever have an opportunity to fire up a 1000 watt HF tube linear, you won't feel the same way about that.
yeah I'll be able to do it for 1000th the cost with transistors
tubes are so so sweet
Jymmm how many transistor amplifiers have you built what designs have you used?
you'll never get the clean signal using Q's as you would with a tube
night all - it'sbeddy-bye time for me
pfred1: I do RF, not audio.
R/N ratio figures would tend to disagree with you there Jymmm
SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
(read the article I posted - it's good)
tubes can't get below .3 THD transistor amps typically display THD of .0015
pfred1: again, I do RF, not audio.
well I must admit a lot of commercial amps I have heard are not to my taste but I seem to like what i can build
there's some great designs out there
they just don't seem to end up in consumer products
and if you can do RF you should be able to do audio with your eyes closed
audio phil's are a specific breed, completely different from ham's.
oh I've met a few of them in my travels they're like luddites
all they seem to know how to do is spend money on useless crap that doesn't do what they think it does
here if you want to laugh hit this URL http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=audio+cable+review&btnG=Google+Search
bear in mind all an audio cable is is a freaking wire!
not exactly true....
but they'll debate endlessly how one wire is better than another
no there's been scientific testing on how any of these wires are any better than nay others
and it all basically boils down to gage
oxygen depleted et al meaningless!
the signal is above the debate it seems
the original monster speaker cable (decades ago) had a particular reasoning in it's design.
[08:15:43] <pfred1> http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm
But after looking at their website now, it's horseshift what they have todo
impedance is what's actually meaningful.
and higher the gage, lower the impedance.
I refuse to prove that my cables will make your system sound better", says the snake oil vendor, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, you will hear nothing."
A-L-P-H-A: not necessarly
Jymmm, which part?
and higher the gage, lower the impedance.
looks it's like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin it's monk's work
I'm not an audiophile... so I could care less.
as long as it sounds nice to me, I'm happy.
cheapest stereo enhancement I ever found smoke a joint
transitor radios sound good then!
but "audiophiles" they must be born stoned with their ideas
least the rest of us sober up
Ah, here is a brief of it (1st paragraph) http://www.monstercable.com/company_info/
Theres a bigger story behind it, but I can't recall the technical detials.
yeah they're big fat wires
but for most applications zipcord is just as good
pfred1: oh, go smoke something!
Jymmm I don't need to I'm not the one thinking different wires will make my stereo sound any better
just checking out that dynomotion card postewd on the list
using the emc interpreter
all I can say is wow
I will give those guys a call today
Ask them how much of the GPL code did they use....
hmm no phone number...only email
I think they only used the interpreter
Never a good sign..
I see screens with the cannonicals on it
This is not a turn key machine control
internet is like being on a v. slow dial up for me at the moment....
So I'll look at it (much) later.
I had never heard of it
not sure if it is new or not
je suis en Geneve :)
nice skiing at the weekend too
well not skiing now, obviously ...
I may have to go to st gallen soon
that powder coat project coming up
make a change from turkey calls I guess :)
well that is continuing....makes it very hard to travel
If I'm gone...machine does not run...workers laid off
kind of jit
you need a machine opeartor
who can sand
Well I hired a retired engineer part time
Today I have to fiddle with one of the stepper tester units and get it shipped
I need some more USB cables
No turkey production till wed
we worked overtime last week to buy enough time to have a couple days of engineering stuff
well better get to it
* anonimasu is sitting at the mill
programming a part :)
* paul_c is sitting at a computer programming.
do you have any clue about a good feedrate for milling regular iron?
and what type of tool (HSS or carbide) ?
20-30m/min with HSS (depending on grade of cast iron), and
135-275m/min with carbide.
03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/drivers/extintf.h: Minor correction to a comment.
not cast iron
plain old EN3B mild steel - 30m/min
that sounds very fast..
sorry - I was looking at cutter speed.
I can go to 4000 somwhere..
cutter dia & number of teeth ?
dormer HSC-o XP
1500RPM @ 150mm/min
if you want to see what I am milling I'll show you when I get inside
is taking 1mm per cut too much you think?
Are you cutting a slot or using the side of the cutter ?
hm pocketing kindof..
using the bottom & the side of the cutter..
3mm down & 3mm across
IF the mill is rigid enough to take it.
I cant chance its a part i am re-machining, to fit..
1mm down and 3mm across..
will be good...
3mm down & 1mm across - Gives you more cutting edge.
lol yeah :)
maybe I should just get on with it..
hm runs nicely
ok I got the skinny on that dynomotion card that uses part of emc
it is poorly documented
It appears to not be capable of being a stand alone cnc controller
It uses a small subset of rs274
I have a plunge feed of 150mm/min
it's a bit hard on the machine..
it has functions for cubic coordinated moves and such, but the cannonicals do not seem to use them
it has 16 meg memory
it is $399
uses ti dsp
this part seems to turn out nicely
your cast iron thing?
just iron :)
regular iron i think..
here iron is the term used when it is near the iron carbon eutectic
mild steel maybe
steel is used if it is near the eutectoid
its the stuff you usually use when constructing things..
machinery and stuff..
just regular stuff..
yes our ansi a-36 structural
yeah, about 0.2% carbon
36k psi yield
I machine a lot of it
use leaded if it's not to be welded though
About twice as easy to cut
emc took a violent cut.
anon told emc to take a violent cut?
from z-6 to z-7
a 1mm plunge?
it went 3mm down.
makes you feel a bit scared..
I always am scared when I have to do the first cut of a program
at 5 meters/min
but I cant see how emc can turn -6 -7 to a runaway Z..
use foam at first to check it out
I do not have runaways
you have a servo system.. Ö/
emc told my z to go.. thats what happened..
only one move?
I had like 6 passes to get down to the depth..
but on the last z move it just went down too far..
err the z move before the 2 last passes..
this on a typical vertical mill?
pretty hefty plunge
stopped the spindle..
I have to really watch stalling the spindle
10 kN of force will be applied
to prevent that I have ferror set VERY low
my geckos are very cheap today..
running step to servo (320) ?
ooh 256 max count ferror I think....too much
I run 1:4 to the ballscrew..
how many counts/mm?
1000 line encoders..
thats 1000/5 on the pc..
I run the step multiplier..
4000 per 5mm..
well max ferror ought to be around .1 mm for that type
um.. emc went upwards when it should go downwards..
about 0.2 mm
I am getting more scared of this.
I did a move to -1 and now it's at 3
are these direction/runaway things seemingly random?
hm, usually in the opposite direction of a move
I'll be changing to emc1 soon..
oh this is emc2?
Sounds like it is not quite there yet
and its the last time I am running it.. until somone takes a look at the whole motion part.
emc1 pretty much runs flawlessly
I don't use the latest build
but I need to set it up :/
no reason to change if it is working well
I wonder if i should collect strength and run the last pass now..
can you turn down the current limit on the amps?
but not on the Z.. since thats a stepper..
or I could..
if 20 peak with motors that can handle it a stalled spindle creates 10kN or so
perhaps 30-40 considering the drive reduction
enough to break stuff
cutters for sure
ping! Then duck
hm.. it applied z-0.5830 in work offset.
I had a 3/8 carbide end mill slip and hit a hardened grade 8 bolt at 120 ipm
what a mess
yeah I remember when that happened..
Actually I ought to set my current limits lower
it's at 20 per axis
that's about 1 g
only running .1 or less
4 amps is enough for that+friction
emc seems to apply z offsets..
it did it again..
emc1 for you
Z-14.5 it says.
good to document that stuff though
it was -3 in Z work offset.
* anonimasu sighs
yeah its good..
heh make your stuff out of urethane foam.
this is a piece we got from a customer at work to modufy a bit..
well it did that I guess
it turned out ok..
but well, I am not running my machine in anything harder then foam.. witgh emc2..
I wonder how much work it is to compile emc1..
I just found an error on one of my stepper multiplier boards
wrong box ;)
2.4.21-adeos should compile emc1 shouldnt it?
compile for me is put the tarball in a directory with a path to compile_BDI2_xx and run
or whatever that script is named
I'll compile it in a little bit
I have to get my exacto knife here and cut some traces
goofed up this board
hm a new ver of emc downloaded
although I dont think it'll compile
cd rcslib/etc && ./configure
make PLAT=realtime && make PLAT=nonrealtime
paul: what kenel do you need for that?
any 2.4 series with the rtai patch.
paul_c: did you read back about what I said?
If it doesn't work, let us know and we can tweak configure.
* paul_c scrolled through some comments about emc2
yeah, there's somthing wrong with the motion part.. it adds Z offsets somtimes..
file a bug report with the tracker.
I'll do that later today
Do it now while the details are fresh in your mind ;}
like I could forget a runaway Z..
but what input triggers the fault ?
pretty much any..
z moves.. atleast..
I made here's the code..
g01 z5 y-5 f50
G21 & G90 at the top of the file ?
buit g90 was on..
what do I do after I've compiled rcslib?
make PLAT=realtime && make PLAT=nonrealtime
send a note to the list (or on wiki) with the kernel ver & RT patch and on what base (Debian, RH, other)
yeah, Ill post the code & the stuff on the wiki..
a pretty recnent BDI..
heh my father is ordering 4x scsi disks.. and a scsi raid card..
make PLAT=realtime && make PLAT=nonrealtime
make: Target `all' not remade because of errors.
make: Leaving directory `/home/an0n/emc/src/emcmot
which plat caused the error ?
I dont know since I ran &&
realtime seems to compile..
nope it seems like its realtime
run PLAT=realtime on it's own
make: Target `all' not remade because of errors.
make: Leaving directory `/home/an0n/emc/src/emcmot
make PLAT=realtime 2>&1 | tee err.log
ausr/include/sys/io.h:159: error: redefinition of `outsb'
/usr/src/linux-2.4.21/include/asm/io.h:426: error: `outsb' previously defined her
in vital.c & vti.c
add the following at line 38
and again in vital.c at line 25
lemme know if the compile passes.
err actually its dro.c
add linux/kernel.h @ line 25
and change 2,4,24 to 2,4,20 @ line 44
asm/io.h & sys/io.h always causes problems.
making PLAT=nonrealtime now
SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
paul_c: I see the file is finished uploading
* paul_c is penning a lengthy note to SWPadnos
uh oh :)
it seems to compile atleast
15 pages so far ;)
15 pages note
uh - I need more coffee ;)
that's more like a book then a note really
paul_c: wouldnt it work to add #pragma once
before the #include's =
wth do you want #pragma for with GCC ?
what pragma are you thinking of?
paul_c: to keep it from #including the stuff more then once..
paul@Babylon-117:/tmp/linux/include/asm$ cat io.h
Each header should have the same define at the top.
Most (if not all) kernel & libc headers do.
so a #pragma is not required.
I need rcslib..
(funny how chatzilla thinks there's a #pragma channel :) )
* anonimasu yawns
I wonder when this compile will be finished..
well - it's a good thing the new BDI-4 is up - it looks like I'll need to reinstall on my emc machine :(
(danmed DeathStar hard drives)
oh 2 maxtor died on me today
at the same time
that's a pisser
at the luckily I had enough backup to manage..
this drive had been in my windows machine, then it turned up some errors.
this has been a horrid day.
I woke up getting a emergency call from work..
I ran IBMs DFT program, and it flagged the bad areas - I guess it wasn't aggressive enough in testing
I love emergency calls
(people are so patient)
mind you it's my fathers company..
so it's more like it's dead serious..
"get yer ass aoutta bed and get over here" :)
ill be back in a bit
going for a reboot
me too soon
(HD dying in EMC machine)
../etc/determineplat.def:49: /home/an0n/rcslib/etc/.def: No such file or directory
anonimasu: you should repeat that :)
your last line - Paul wasn't around
../etc/determineplat.def:49: /home/an0n/rcslib/etc/.def: No such file or directory
right - that
I did that..
I did a make install
plain ol' make doesn't hack it.
make install PLAT=nonrealtime
paul_c: I just read your note - I think there
Though why you would want to do make instal....
...there's an easy way around the sync problems
(UT vs RT sync)
paul_c: I get the same error when making emc..
err.. hold on I'll get you the error when I compile emc..
* paul_c waits patiently foe SWPadnos' input
sorry -was thinking
sorry for being a bit stupid my head's a mess right now
Anyway - the shmem thing should work, and all the reader/writer in user-time does ig get the latest value
the RT code updates everything on a schedule determined by the hardware (and possibly CPU speed)
the user code reads ADCin[x], which is the latest reading
who cares if 1uSec later the value would have been updated?
it's non-RT, so it shouldn't matter.
then, the RT code (that deals with userspace requests) just does a read from memory (not from the hardware)
As for output, one thing I've done is to retain a couple of variables - a "requsted off" and a "requested on" var
(for bits anyway)
when the RT update loop runs, it grabs the present value, ANDs with ~Request_off, ORs with Request_on, and outputs the result
(or do the OR, then AND, if you want to prefer turning things off)
Ignoring the ppmc for a moment, and talking about general interface cards....
rihgt - the general problem is that there is hardware in some state, and software that wants to see that state
the design of EMC allows each sub-section to be run on seperate computers.... Some with a realtime OS, others without.
so, make a copy that the software can have acces to at any time, and a driver that updates (in both directions) on is own schedule
a realtime memory manager..
OK - so it needs to manage hardware access on a non-RT system as well.
and a userspace part that run ins realtime/nonrealtime and grabs values fof the manager?
that's OK - you just have a scheduled I/O handler - it's just not that well scheduled on a non-RT system
Also looking ahead to a time when rtai_shm might be dropped.
It doesn't need to be shmem, there can be getter/setter "methods" for all of the data
also, the RT (or I/O) interface should have the ability to organize data from multiple pieces of hardware
but userspace still sees an interfeace of "get me A/D reading number 47"
usr/lib -fstrict-aliasing -I/usr/include/g++-2/ -DNO_RTL -DHAVE_RTAI -o /home/an0n/emc/plat/nonrealtime/lib/vital.o )
vital.c:49:21: pci/pci.h: No such file or directory
vital.c:68: error: parse error before '*' token
regardless of which physical piece of hardware (or computer) that comes from
anonimasu: apt-get install pciutils-dev
Exactly the point I was making - One standard interface regardless of h/w driver or rt/non-rt OS
right - I agree :)
the "drivers" publish the I/Os they have available on their hardware
for speed purposes, there could be some granularity to the published I/Os
like 4 A/D channels - if you have 3, then you say 3, but a block of 4 is reserved, with #4 disabled or something
then higher card numbers are just a shift
paul_c: I am terribly sorry for asking about everything.. I hope you dont mind
anonimasu: piss off :)
* paul_c sends anonimasu a bill for consultancy time ;}
(I'm not paul, so I'm not qualified to say that :) )
paul_c: did you write the offset part in emc2? ;)
Ask jmk about it.
lol.. I'd better not
after filing a bug report.
I'll file it as soon as I get home
SWPadnos: Sounds like you are wanting multiple h/w drivers talking through a single interface.
I can see having a USC-like card, but maybe then wanting to use a parport for some other functions (exta outputs)
Well.... The 526 only has 8 IO lines, so an extra port or two will be desireable.
(little things, like a light on the cabinet that indicates that the program is about to end, and the machine will need operator attention soon)
then the actual "program done" indication...
I'm gonna take a look around fro motion-related products at ESC
awww - Sensoray won't be there. bummer.
(I'd love to ask why they have 16 analog inputs + 16 outputs, but only 8 digital I/O)
* anonimasu is looking after a servoamp catalogue
err.... four analogue outs on the 526
Sorry - four @ 16 bits - duh
but 8 inputs
(It's not likely that they're short on pins - that's a pretty big FPGA package)
~600$ per amp..
for 2 amps
Either you are trying to add feature creep, or you are after HAL.
hm.. I'll be at 900$ with the vital card..
+ 100 for the shipping of that..
and import duties
so much for my little cheap mill..
hmmm - I'm just looking through the docs for the Motorola DSP56F805 - it has some cool features for servo control
/tmp/ccDDdCTM.o(.text+0x4d): In function `LS7266Init':
/home/an0n/emc/src/emcmot/dro.c:136: undefined reference to `outb'
but at least you have the hardware ready for the Yasaki 15 axis machining center.
the quadrature decoder has a 32-bit position counter, 16-bit position difference register, fast (40MHz) counting, and timing between phase transitions (for more accurate low speed measurements)
I may have to fiddle with that a bit
anonimasu: Delete emc/plat/* and do the makes again.
I readded the includes I removed before..
not that I'll ever be able to pay for a machining centre..
If you stop eating, and start saving now, then maybe by the time you retire you'll be able to get one :)
they are dirt cheap for second hand ones.
how cheap is that?
did you see the high-speed machining video I posted last niught?
* paul_c could have had a BP426 for less than �5,000
how many $ is that..
(at least, that's waht I think the model was)
go here: http://www.datrondynamics.com/
click on the camera on the left side of the page
(only $46,800 each - what a bargain)
that's still about what a new car would cost me :/
SWPadnos: nice price
I am going to sell my mill.
realtime & nonrealtime is compiled now
* anonimasu sighs
I am jealous of that machine
phew - back from the dead
what did I miss? (my machine spontaneously rebooted when I went to watch that video)
We got as far as tossing up HAL v Feature creep.
Ah - I think I was here for that :)
* paul_c disappears for ten.
brb - upgrading chatzilla
Ahhh - so much better
* paul_c does a cvs co on rtai (all of it)
including Fusion, or just the stable branch?
the 2.6.10 r9c5 patch will be out tomorrow
cool. I guess there'll be another BDI download soon :)
and a 2.6.11 candidate as soon as the kernel is released.
do you think space could be macde on the BDI disc for qt / gtk dev tools?
(asking because kernel make xconfig or make gconfig doesn't work for me)
no room left for qt/gtk dev libs.
time to see if emc runs..
You still have menuconfig
true - that's what I've been using to prove out my "kconfig style comfigurator" idea
anonimasu: twiddle them - it's more fun
I would like to see some of the options that are available in the graphical ones though - such as "show all options" and the like
rtai_sem: Device or resource busy
rtai_shm: Device or resource busy
maybe I should reboot before I try this..
or run the non servo2go .run file
hmmm - I should look at which computer I'm typing "startx" on :(
it looks like Bad Things happen when X is already running, and you tell it to start again from an ssh session
OK... Major changes to shared memory handling in Fusion.
I noticed that the headers were different - I couldn't compile EMC with it
Not just the headers. System calls too.
right - various functions were missing, then I had the bright idea of installing a supported version, and it worked much better
hm bbaib need to run out and reboot the box at the mill..
hmmm - do you suppose a failing hard disk could cause kdmgreet to SIG11?
sig11 - Seg fault
and of course, the apt cache is where the HD problem is.
yes - it's a big bummer
either a duff memory stick
no - an IBM DeathStar hard drive.
grind grind grind grind
grind grind grind grind
I guess I need to attach a floppy drive so I can get my few files off this machine
(good thing the devtools are on BDI-4.18 :) )
is there an option iduring install to install "EMC Development" stuff?
I'm checking this chat for the first time,
actually this is the first irc chat i've ever done.
what goes on usally
I got this link from linuxcnc.org
funny - I had never used IRC until 3 weeks ago - also for EMC
This is a forum for users and developers of EMC. If you have questions and/or sugestions, this is one place for them
[17:05:10] <paul_c> http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html
it looks like from the header i recieved upon entering that there is a regular meeting at 14:00 gmt
what is that in central time?
On Sundays, yes
I hopeoastarting EMC IO PROGRAM -- minimillio...can't run minimillio program
The file plat/nonrealtime/bin/minimillio does not exist or is not executable.
Did minimillio get compiled ?
makeI think it did..
but its not in the bindir..
I did a make PLAT=nonrealtime again..
(the symlink got created - Else run would have barfed on inivar)
where can I get source code for emc and is it available for Visual C++?
/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lXaw
absolutely not available for VC++
it runs on Linux
hence the website LinuxCNC.org
only a sick puppy would even consider trying to run EMC on M$
(or art or fred :) )
Does it not run on windows because of the real time restriction only.
Are there ways around that
lots of reasons
reef: not really
* paul_c doesn't *do* M$
there are CNC controlprograms for Windows - this isn't one of them
O.K. So it's strictly linux, is it in C/C++
For the most part.
and a python addon
Oh, and some java extras for the real sickos
paul_c: did you read the response letter to that interview? - more funny stuff
now lets see
* SWPadnos swaps hard drives, prepares for a new BDI install
no, it did compile nonrealtime but minimillio seems to be missing
nml_mod.cc 316: !ERROR! Error Log channel is invalid.
got ssh in to the box so I can poke around ?
java, that's insane...
paul_c: yes, if you wait a bit I'll forward a port to it..
reef: No, not insane, just the product of some very sick minds.
Are they just trying to complicate things.
Fortunately, the java stuff is not a requiirement to compile or run EMC.
Oh yeah - I know what a SIG11 is - I'm swapping out the faulty HD now
paul_c: does it work?
Jymmm me old fruit
paul_c: I assume that BDI-4 is based on Debian-testing, since it has kernel 2.6
paul_c: your a prune?
raisin - california
Jymmm: What would you say to a 110W laser in the Bay Area ?
too easy :)
[17:40:56] <paul_c> http://evilurl.com/deaddeathsuck
what can I say..
paul_c: what is the "kernel-kbuild-2.6.3" package in the BDI 4.18 install?
paul_c: it's 440 3-phase, I saw it on Saturday in person.
paul_c: But thank yu very much
rotary phase converter + step-up tansformer + *very* thick wires and a big circuit breaker, and you'rea ll set :)
SWPadnos A PART MENT
yeah - so, just don't tell anyone
SWPadnos: Not the problem, there is no 440 in the bldg
(I'm sure nobody will notice the lights dimming as you start up the 20HP rotary phase converter :) )
and it's 3 ph
* SWPadnos drums fingers waiting for BDI install
SWPadnos: it be done by now if you hadn't teased me =)
paul_c: shall we continue on the driver topic?
Jymmm: true - and for that I'm eternally shamed
* Jymmm chuckles
(not that I teased you - that it would be done by now)
* SWPadnos thinks the BDI install would be a little faster if I hadn't selected everything
I think paul is busy playing around with my box ;)
hey - keep that to yourself :)
SWPadnos: dont you want more intimate details?
(and no "I didn't lnow you were a girl" jokes!)
So Jymmm how did you like your discussion with pfred1 last night?
* Jymmm has no comment.
right -" if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything" :)
those are your words, not mine
true - they are
I had gotten a little bit annoyed when trying to get A-L-P-H-A's AVR project up and running
with ASM or c ?
FWIW... I found out that the shaft on my auto centerpunch fits the rollerskat blades perfectly
32-bit divides got him down :)
cool - what is the bearing number?
hmm - I don't recognize that one
thats teh only marking on it
right - I think the standard bearings are usually 4 digits
Also found out that these bearings will NOT fit on the shaft of a dremel
--><-- much too large
like these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7136883585
oh no, these are cheapies
less than $6 / 16 ?
sorry - $7/16
long time ago had bought a pair of skates that were on clearnacne for $8
rip the bearings, chuck the skates =)
$8 for shipping?! wtf
these are expensive (and not that great either): http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PARTPG=NNLMK32&PMPXNO=5405786
well, I'll stick with the skate bearings if im going to do this.
heh, now I have to clear off my bench to take apart the cdrom drive! lol
SWPadnos? annoyed at me?
not in the slightest
(more the peanut gallery suggesting adding chips to your tach)
I was a little annoyed at the pfile guy
I was polite about it though.
the good new is that my divide routines don't use any mega-only instructions
the multiplication ones do, though -you shouldn't need those, so I've stripped them out
A-L-P-H-A: grab http://www.cncgear.com/Files/division.asm
ohoh! divide32_16. :)
actually - that's a divide 32_32, but it just clears the high word for you first :)
use divide_32 for your application
oops - divide32
since you don't care about the execution time, you can also remove the longtoASCII routine from the other file
just do repeated division by 10, and push the remainder on a stack
so it's load the words for A and B, call DIVIDE32 so the result is = AH:AL / BH:BL ?
actually, it's AUH:AUL:AH:AL / BUH:BUL:BH:BL
k, so I gotta define AUH, AUL, etc.
stored in CUH:CUL:CH:CL, with remainder in AUH:AUL:AH:AL
yes - those are the same 12 registers the other code uses :)
If you load EBX (all the B registers) with 10, you can do repeated calls to the divide routine to get successive digits for printing
actually, once you've done the first divide (600 million / counter), you'll be left with a 16-bit number of RPM (less than 16 probably)
SWPadnos doesn't seem too shabby http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7120694702&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcN__Stores
no - I'm not too shabby :)
SWPadnos no, you are shaggy!
yep - same guys
I bought 10 6204s from them, they're OK.
slightly better than $1.50 with shipping)
dang, those are chip bearings.
walmart and kmart here I come.... $0.15/ea!!! cross-fingers
eeerk $19.95 shipping?!?!
err. $30 for me.
I thought it was the 16
hey, yard sale... $2/16 of em =)
$0.50USD each. to Canada
12.5 cents each =)
they're abec 7... you could sell them for more. :)
There's another company witha similar name, that has linear bearings as well.
oh it is him.
SWPadnos, so are you saying EAX / $00 00 00 10 ?
EBX = $00:00:00:0A
oh that 10. :)
uless you want to output RPM in hex :)
If you want the tach to work up to say 30KRPM (future-proof :) ), that will be the smallest count, so the smallest divisor
That's 20K cycles you should be counting, minimum.
you can check for counts below that, and print "Danger Will Robinson" or something
the higher the count, the lower the result of the long division
so you can then use the divide16_8 routine to do the ASCII conversion
(since 10 fite in 8 bits, and 30K fits in 16 bits)
10 fits, of course :)
65K rpm could fit
it only reduces the time by 3X, and time isn't critical here. You could do without the 16_8 division routine to save space
yes it could - you could limit it to 60K, for nice human readable limits :)
I think I'll have a ton of space left... and this will be a stand alone.
hey - 20 words is 2-0 words :()
:) ;) :0 - whatever
I must get the heater fixed
I like the emoticon graphics much better in chatzilla 0.9.67 vs. 0.9.61
<-- using mirc.
hmm - what's better about it? (or are you just used to it?)
I've been using it since windows it came out really. So I've been using it for a long long time.
Ah - I just noticd that it's shareware, so I think I'll stick with Chatzilla on this machine :)
I'm just used to it. that's all.
"warranty void if seal broken" "Um my dog ate it, yeah that's it, my dog ate it"
oh that's slick.... instead of putting heat sinks on certain SMD IC's, they tossed on a bit of heatsink grease on them and engineered it so the outter case becomes the heat sink.
gecko's do that.
oh that reminds me....I have to put some sinks on this 5804 stepper driver before I firer it up
couple little copper tabs soldered to the leadframe will do
1 amp 17v from a 14 dip
could get a little warm
mighty warm, I'd say
les come on, be a man about it, it's only 17watts use your thumb for a heat sink!
real men use ice cold beer cans for heat sinks!
then they melt them =)
U CAN DU THAT!!!??!!
REAL men do NOT drink frozen beer !!
I am about to turn this thing on and see if the smoke comes out
it's a test station for calbrating my encoders
has feedback though
* Jymmm hate USB for things like that
use slipped steps to detect the detents
oh usb is too slow for cnc and such
works for this
USB polls, that's the problem
anyway the boards cost $500 for 5
the testers are going out the door for 15k
Does anyone know what "les' stands for?
'les' == I HATE YOU!
I had to make a step multiplier and 5804 based driver thgough
actually these things were way too much work
for 15k, think you would do it again?!
if the same yes
If I had to design a new system....I dunno
LES LES LES
I did this for a set price
that was a mistake
fixed bid == mistake
(it's a mathematical identity :) )
very true this time
I think I put in...oh...300 hrs on these things
make twice as much with the silly turkey calls
and they are silly :)
$15,000 / 300 hours = $50/hr LES LES LES
less expenses - that's not a great rate
ok I screwed up this time
smoke will come soon
I am waiting for some epoxy to dry befor I power em up
out of 5 min stuff
had to use 2 ton
Then I have to drive 40 miles to mail em at ups
15k shipping insurance will be a bit
bet the hand carry stuff like that
no - they're just more careful when they throw it around :)
well back to soldering on the heat sinks and setting this up
paul_c: Oh, I just remember that I have forgotten something :-)
what did you remembert that you forgot?
(if you can remember)
les: you have your own hate-fan-club ;)
to move Pauls new BDI to the downloadlocation
what's the question?
do you have the URL for the seed server?
and to free the harddisk that Paul can download the rest of the file
There's a copy of bdi-4.18 on my webspace
my ftp disk was full
[19:17:38] <SWPadnos> http://www.cncgear.com/EMC/BDI/
Ah - that's why the upload failed midway through :)
feel free to pull it from there when you have the space
ok, i mirror it
(I'm curious about how well their servers handle the load)
* anonimasu is test running a program on emc1
hows server ?
I've been wondering - roughly how many BDI downloads per month are there?
I m not a specialist in apache log files, but I have a lot of downloads. But the most of them donloaded only the first 50MB
or i would like to say they interrupted after a wile
OK - I'm wondering how an "open" BDI mirror would impact my transfer limits
what's your limit ?
(roughly 250-300 full BDIs)
but I'd like to have some available for other things once I get the websites up and running
hehe my limit is the 100Mbit ethernet card :-) and the 80MB Harddisk
yeah - that would be the ticket :)
better than 7680MB storage / 192GB transfer
I like the transfer speeds from a hosting company better than my 256k ADLS upstream rate though
have only 128bit at home
does anyone know what packages need to be installed on BDI to be able to use the kernel "make xconfig" or "make gconfig"
well - that's no help :)
but use the debain utility for package selection, I think you will find the one you need
do I just set my input_scale to whatever I used in emc2
I have a debain server running at work, but it runs so fine that I have forgotten how all the utilitys are named :-)
where do I put thoose values in emc1?
I would think stepgen params would be for output scale
SWPadnos: ah thanks..
but don't quote me :)
OUTPUT_SCALE = 1000.000 0.000
and what does the second value do?
hm *grabs the wiki*
I dont quite get what you do with that
it would be used for an analog servo amp that has a voltage offset
I don;t think stepgen uses it (but leave it at 0 just in case)
now, the question is how do I reverse the axis:es
or do I have to hack the stepgen ;)
enter a negative number for the scale
(both input and output, I think - else the display won't follow correctly)
hm.. I just want to reverse the direction the table goes :)
right - enter -32000 0 or whatever fro OUTPUT_SCALE
I am trying it now :)
then change it also for the INPUT_SCALE, if the EMC display goes in the wrong direction with the table moving in the right direction
(or you may get a quick following error :) - I'm not sure)
it works nicely now
I havent measured at the machine though
Well - it looks like you can make xconfig if you apt-get qt3-dev-tools and libqt3-dev
now on to gconfig
hm, now I need to get segmentqueue running ;)
don't push your luck :)
SWPadnos: I thought it worked nicely ;)
SWPadnos: I like contouring stuff, fast ;)
right - that's why you like the machine movie :)
* SWPadnos wonders if my computer will crash again if I try to watch it
I think I need to watch it again..
or maybe not..
I dont have any money to buy anything close to that.
Stop eating, drinking, and living in a building, and maybe by retirement, you'll be able to afford one :)
* anonimasu sighs
I dont pay any rent my parents own the appartment I live in ;)
well - that's a start
and I have paid gas, cause of work :)
so maybe someday
they'll be showing up on eBay in a few years
(maybe sooner )
anonimasu" Now, live in a box and rent out the apartment
oooh - good plan
SWPadnos: they'll be old there will be better stuff by then ;)
anonimasu: HEY!!!!!!!!!!! better yet, sell your parents!
Jymmm: nah that's somthing I wouldnt do
sell your parents' apartment - you'll have to move anyway to have space for the machine
I can keep it at the company ;)
sell the company - buy the bigger machine
SWPadnos: if I sold that I could buy a couple ;)
hm, now how do i get segmentqueue to run ;)
OK - to use make gconfig, you need to apt-get install libgtk2.0-dev libglade2-dev libglib2.0-dev
libglade2-dev should pull the other two in.
(just making sure the logs have the right stuff, in case I forget before putting stuff on the wiki)
could be - I did a different (non-optimal) order
I'm working on a kconfig-like configuration approach.
I think the *config system will need a little bit of modification, but not too much
did you have another PLAT on this box that was causing trouble ?
paul_c: on mine?
yup - Or was it just 2.4.21 + rtai ?
paul_2.4.21-adeos + rtai
paul_c: and the older kernel..
paul_c: it seems like it didnt compile segmentqueue after all
* Jymmm just devirginized his first cdrom
paul_c: I wanted to try it ;)
lemme take a look in a sec.
I broke somthing..
sudo mount --bind / /var/tmp
ln -f /tmp /var/tmp
sudo rm -fR /tmp/*
* Jymmm notes... The cdrom spindel motor in a Philips/HP CCD2600 will NOT work for making a engraver spindle
* anonimasu laughs at Jymmm
it's a bit underpowered isnt it?
anonimasu: no, not at all. It's the way it's mfg'ed
paul_c: when you begin poking tell me so I dont do somthing at the same time
you have to raise the shaft a tad to have it spin freely, but it was based upon how it's mounted in the chassis
* paul_c is compiling....
maybe I should abort the one I am running ;)
anonimasu: They even went as far as laminating a PCB to the chassis. The weirdest thing I've ever seen.
paul_c: or maybe I should let it finish since its gotten pretty far
* paul_c just did bridheport*
should i abort it?=
now on to emcsvr
omg. my back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 feeels soooo good... just cracked like 4-6 times in different places.
nah... leave yours to run.
A-L-P-H-A: how much?
Jymmm? how much what?
I did it in my chair. :)
my back feeels PERFECT!
A-L-P-H-A step in front of my suv... I'll get 40-60 cracks out of ya! =)
Jymmm, do you live in a rural area?
so. why. do. you. have. a. suv?
San Jose, California... Population 1.3 Million
contracting works lots? carry lots of stuff?
contract work a lot?
I can't speak. :(
I'm anti SUV.
unless there's a perpose.
I'm 6'4" dont comfortably fit in most cars
paul_c: plat/realtime/lib/segmentqueue.o: couldn't find the kernel version the module was compiled for
can't install it
well... that's an acceptable reason.
A-L-P-H-A the gas tank has it's own credit card processing machine.
does anyone here have a favorite ftp daemon (for use on a BDI machine)?
proftpd works great
SWPadnos, doesn't the distro already have one?
ftpd is an ftpd.
not a server (that I've noticed)
yeah - I have a big list from apt-cache search, I'm just wondering if people have any favorites :)
not ftpd but i cant remember the other one
oh wow. sooo many registers taken up.
but 8 of the 12 are temp.
they're low registers
(and therefore mostly useless)
I'm using 18-29.
are you saying I should use even lower ones?
I actually have a large (32KWords or so) program, and I've dedicated two registers ad 0 and 255, so I don;t have to load constants all the time
(just addc al, ZERO)
it actually saved roughly 100 words in the program.
of course, ZERO and ALL! are low registers, since they can't be used with immediate operands
ALL1, that is
where do you learn these tricks?
I think of them myself :)
* anonimasu sighs
this is weird again..
SWPadnos, can I use all the registers? Or are there some registers used in some commands?
the only things that use registers as anything other than an 8-bit value are things like LPM and LDS and friends
don't those only use R0?
linear move -3 out of range
also, the upper four register pairs can have small constants (up to +63/-64, I think) added as a 16-bit pair
yes - also R0 for LPM, and r0/r1 for MUL on the megas
(you'll find adiw/sbiw useful)
One thing I often do also is assign a couple of generic names (not temp though) to registers 25 and 24, since those can also be used with adiw/sbiw
I used adiw to increment the upper bytes in the 32 bit counter I have.
it gives me an extra 16-bit register pair when I need it
I think I killed the machine..
right - you could use register pair 25/24 for that, and it wouldn't interfere with LPM and LD instructions
(I call it W)
I'm currently using r30, and r31
right - but you need those for addressing the flash (if necessary), so you have to move values around
anonimasu: You rebooting ??
I found my new drill/lathe/mill/saw/grinder http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40101
WOW - a 6W motor
that's almost 1/100 HP!!!
paul_c: it died..
* Jymmm can machine space shuttle parts now with that!
(for very small shuttles)
Jymmm: with 6w?
no way ;)
paul_c: it's alive now
try this for a spindle: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44141
SWPadnos: I like this one better http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44914
I've got that one in another tab :)
along with http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33833
SWPadnos how is it?
How would I know - I have a Bridgeport :)
I think some people have talked about using their grinders (air powered though)
at those prices, just replace the grinder when the bearings/motor die.
[20:44:43] <Jymmm> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=46343
smallest it does is 1/4" =(
The one you posted is lighter (by almost half), somewhat slower, and has less power (for the same price)
they are having a parking lot sale next week, so I might head up there
Personally, I'd go with the heavier one if I were to choose bwtween only those
Harbor Freight (or Homier?)
I would too, 30K rpm
hmm - what day(s)
[20:46:46] <Jymmm> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44142
or this one
Hmmm - I'm arriving in SF this Saturday evening
[20:46:58] <Jymmm> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=39743
wobble wobble wobble
* Jymmm calls homeland security...
SWPadnos: Yeah, well unless you're gonna give me yours...
yeah - come over and get it :)
SWPadnos: you coming here, deliver it!
too big for carry-on
amybe plane-side check
(I wonder if it'll get through the metal detectors?)
but I really am considering one of these multi machines
what materials do you want to machine
well - at my old company we bought one of the shoptask units.
the'yre not too bad for a small mill (I think the design has been improved a lot since then as well)
they're in the $2000 range, and there are factory options for ballscrews, motor mounts, etc.
I NEVER had any use for a lathe until last night when were were talking about crom spindles
[20:52:46] <SWPadnos> http://www.shoptask.com/
* anonimasu kicks emc
I get following errors like crazy now..
What's period set to?
PERIOD = 0.000024
SWPadnos $$$ ???
$2200 if you get a screatch-n-dent
what's your OUTPUT_SCALE?
OUTPUT_SCALE = -640.000 0.000
(let me think, I'm not an epert yet :) )
the cycle time for the axis:es are a CYCLE_TIME = 0.000200
I copied my settings off emc2..
almost.. all of them,,.
steppermod or freqmod (not that I know the difference)
max_velocity=16.6 - what units?
mm/sec - got it
what are SETUP and HOLD (whatever they're actually called)
SETUP_TIME = 1
HOLD_TIME = 2
(though I'm probably on a wild goose chase, because you probably aren't tryingfor a 1000mm/min move when you get the errors)
yeah I am trying at 500mm/min
which is around the speed I machine plastic in..
emc is a shitload harder then emc2 to set up
hm I loaded a older config..
it works now..
well - HOLD_TIME=2 means that each step pulse must take at least 3 cycles to complete (unless it's four - HOLD_TIME*2)
diff the configs
but I still get ferrors..
just wait till you have to configure emc2+hal for some funky dohick port & driver combo.
* anonimasu just wishes to get this working so he can try out the machine without being scared of Z running away
AFAIK, the only way you can get a following error using freqmod is if you're asking for more steps/sec than the computer can generate (based on PERIOD)
(or if you have the INPUT and OUTPUT scales with opposite signs :) )
or different values - INPUT_SCALE is = OUTPUT_SCALE on all axes, right?
base_period was 0.000024
err is that how they should be=?
for freqmod, I think so (paul_c - care to chime in on that?)
hey, what, hum, err...
ithat might be why then..
* anonimasu is kind of confused about what input_scale and output_scale does
that for freqmod, INPUT and OUTPUT scales should be the same (for each axis)
not necessarily the same on all axes - just equal per axis
it works better now
It tells the internal code how many steps to make per unit and how many encoder counts there are to each unit
but I cant move anywhere though..
For steppers, they should be the same value.
SWPadnos, a word is 16 bits.... what's a 32bit word called? a dword?
linear move -9 out of range
a long, in my book
what's your AXIS_LIMIT on that axis
MIN_LIMIT = -250.0
MAX_LIMIT = 250.0
(it is a dword on x86-land)
well, |9| < 250
* paul_c commits befor anonimasu crashes again
SWPadnos: for $800 laser that might work... Eh. For a brisgeport that DOES work... I'll fly out crate that puppy up and have the flatbed there on Wednesday!
03paul_c * 10emc/src/ (drivers/vital.c drivers/vti.c emcmot/dro.c): rtai.h (via a twisted route) includes io.h, and I suspect one of the rtl headers does to (for the later versions). Hopefully, this change will stop complaints about inb & outb being redefined.
I changed my mind :)
SWPadnos: too late!
Oh - flatbed already here?
* SWPadnos looks out the window
SWPadnos: reservations already made, waiting for airport shuttle now.
hm I can run at 1000mm/min when jogging manually
I see - SuperShuttle, $15 to downtown SF
SWPadnos: I'll be there around 0100 your time!
Right - I'll be waiting (hidden weapons are legal here :) )
SWPadnos: "I know" >:]
I guess I should have said "Oh yeah? Come and Make me" otiginally :)
[21:13:59] <Jymmm> http://www.lasermax-inc.com/products/glock.php
[21:15:07] <SWPadnos> http://www.magnumresearch.com/products.asp
[21:16:02] <SWPadnos> http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=DE50TG-TS
Nah, I'll stick with my G17
SWPadnos, hmm... ADIW Rd+1:Rd,K where d is an element of 24,26,28,30 only. So this means that I can only have 4 words only. That's only 2 longs.
that hurts a little.
you don't need that many - all of the math routines use the lower registers
you only need one "counting" long variable
and you have external SRAM as well (for slow stuff)
I have seen cnc kits for this, but lots of mods to make it accurate...http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991
SWPadnos, 'ight. I think I got it now.
Jymmm: decide what you want to do, figure out what level of machine is necessary to do it, then find the best deal you can on such a machine
the cost of the machine is a small part of the total cost of setting up for machining
there are TONS of bridgeports in California - I had the same transportation issues you have now with the lasers
(I know space is an issue for you)
SWPadnos: I really not interested in a mill (per se), but a lil something something to make small parts for the cost of ~$500 isn't too bad I suspect.
hell of a lot better than trying to make em by hand
Only if it can actually make the parts you want - otherwise it's wasted money
Jymmm, what's your size you want?
A-L-P-H-A im in an apartment
I was looking at the Homier mill/drill ($800), and it's just way too flimsy to machine anything other than wood (soft) or plastic - I'd be afraid to use it for metal.
I'm probably spending $6K to get a shop set up - starting from nothing, and going to CNC plus bandsaw plus tooling / measurement equipment
the milling machine was <1/3 of that
Jymmm, so a sherlin?
SWPadnos. :) cool... I bought out a homeshop for $4K CDN. CNC'd lathe (schuablin 102 [90mm z x 100mm x]), a unretrofitted mill (7"x28"), a bandsaw (4x6), drill press, mig welder with full tank of gas ArCO2.
I retrofitted the mill, for aobut $400 bucks. steppers.
damn - lucky guy. I won't even have a lathe wi this setup
(though I do have a Big Johnson saw)
oh, show call with full tooling, lots of stock, cutters, carbide inserts, umm...
stepper motors, some controllers which I sold.
A-L-P-H-A With limited room, I want as much as possible. I REALLY want to the laser, the mill/lathe machien is just to produce parts brackets mounts etc as needed. For $400, I could use it long enough, then sell it.
small air compressor which I sold as well. I had a bigger one.
Jymmm, if you live in an appartment? how are you gonna fit a laser into your place?
I think the grizzly stuff looks pretty nice,
and yeah, im home from work
A-L-P-H-A: I have a place for it, and yes it would take the place of where the mill machine would be.
A-L-P-H-A I would have to swap them out when needed.
* Jymmm thanks gawd for electric scissors!
* paul_c prods SWPadnos
when I first started out, the backlash kept killing my carbide bits... I didn't realize how expensive they were until I tried to replace them.
* anonimasu had the same problem
I couldnt mill by hand because my backslash caused the table to run off..
A-L-P-H-A: were you aware of the backalash issue BEFORE you bought it?
and break loads of endmills. ;)
what happened was the bit BIT into the metal toooo much, and the torque of the motor just snapped it.
* SWPadnos was adding instructions for displaying EMC on a windows machine to the wiki
mine chattered loads
Jymmm, nope. I could have fixed the backlash... but I didn't... and wasted probably 200 -300 bucks worth of carbide bits.
I didn't know anything at the time.
no - paulc: what prodding?
A-L-P-H-A: Yeah, theres a group thats all about these HF/grizzly 7x10 mills
well, mine's a bench top mill... nothing special, other than it's CNC'd.
A-L-P-H-A let me find the link
my saw is bigger than yours :) - cuts 11x18 steel
SWPadnos: Didn't know if you wanted to talk IO interface again...
mine also :)
I'm trying to get back to where I was before I had to reinstall BDI this afternoon
* anonimasu is happy now
0.002" backlash on one axis (which I can't compensate), and 0.00025" on the other axis.
the mill does 1000mm/min with 200% feed override
something I did find... http://www.cncmasters.com/CNC%20Jr%20Mill.htm
I have somthing like 0.1 on a axis.. but it'll go away when I change ballnuts..
A-L-P-H-A : you climb milling with carbide?
I dropped one or two balls maybe..
climb milling? [dunno]
A-L-P-H-A: which way do you cut?
in the direction which the spindle is spinning or aginst it
you shouldnt have the tool jerking your table forward, thats climb milling
I'm going CW, with the spindle. So if I'm doing the part...
yeah but isnt climb milling recommended for cnc:ing
conventional is where your tool, bites or pushes into the work, and advances down that path, loading the screw
most of the time..
anonimasu : depends on what your cutting, what your wanting to acheive
gezr: nice surface finishes ;)
cool - getting to a development state was much easier with BDI-4.8 thanks, paul_c
if I was going to mill out a circle on a plate, I'd cut the circle CCW.
gezr: and extreme cutting speed :)
then the doc should be light enough not to jerk the table past any backlash
daveland: Long time! How you been?
SWPadnos: You should have installed 4.18
right - that's what I meant to say
[21:40:13] <Jymmm> http://plsntcov.8m.com/grizzley.html
paul_c: I'll be running out to test the mill now :)
to see how it does move irl..
paul_c: I may have found something that screws up ppmcio on BDI-4
A-L-P-H-A : I do any cut in the conventional method, very rarely do I use climb milling
Not a problem SWPadnos - We have the sources.
the makefile has a line ifeq (KERNELVERSION,2,4) or some such, and the ppmcio obj is inside that check
or I make sure more then 50% of the endmill is in the cut
ifeq ($(KERNELRELEASE),2.4) - line 11
actually, that's false, I milled out a hole in a plate goin CW.
I assume that looks for kernel equal to 2.4, not equal or greater
I drilled a hole in dead center, spiraled out.
SWPadnos: If you grep all the make files, you'll find all the RT srcs & objs are inside an ifeq
using a helix formula
A-L-P-H-A : cool :), I bet that was sweet
oops - forgot to copy .config and make oldconfig...
it was neat. very neat.
A-L-P-H-A here's most/not all of it http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Main/mini-mill.htm
worked out well, and went like 3 ipm. without issue.
I don't know what speeds I can really go, cause I don't trust the damn chart I have with that mill.
maybe next year ill be in a better financial situation and Ill get a mill to have some fun with, there is a grizzly vertical/horizontal model that I really like, I like horizontal mills for some reason
I really don' thave the patience to do manual milling. I'm very very impatient. So I'd rather draw in cad, and spit it out to the mill
A-L-P-H-A : you will learn more from doing, then reading a table, use it only as a guide. Make a judgement baised on experience or a guess to deviate from the tables given :)
A-L-P-H-A : most tool tables, ecept drilling, are a really good starting point for any given tool.
a guy on CCED, ballendo? like 3 years ago, he came up with the word "ballscrewitice" or something. Everyone and their dog wanted to use ballscrews for everything... and really it's not needed, and I agree with him.
ah - make prepare-all is your friend
A-L-P-H-A explain yourself lucy!
A-L-P-H-A : ball screws give a totally different feel to a manual machine :)
gezr, well... I'm building this digital tachometer, to see what I can actually mill at... and use the formula properly.
gezr, doesn't matter to the computer.
A-L-P-H-A "Joos gots sum explanings to do lucy!"
Jymmm... well... everyone was trying go for these super small (and expensive) ballscrews in their taig/sherline converstions... because they thought it would improve performance.
not necessarily true.
they thought it was more accurate.
A-L-P-H-A: Ah, ok.
not necessarily true.
A-L-P-H-A: I thought from acme to ball
it's more effecient from a mechanical aspect of things yes. But to the outcome of things, no.
a ball screw that small, to be accurate is gonna cost a bunch of cash
* anonimasu smiles
it works very nice
gezr, well, 3/8" ballscrew shafting is cheap. the nut, is expensive. like $90USD/each.
A-L-P-H-A I just want the travel speed I can get from a ball -vs- acme.
A-L-P-H-A : oh yeah.
A-L-P-H-A laser router, not mill
Jymmm : double lead acme
oh, for a laser, that's fine. As it's a laser, and you need the speed.
gezr 5 degree ones?
isnt ballscrews better since they have less friction?
but on a milling machine, you don't need ballscrews on those tiny little machines.
paul_c: the machine was very smooth now compared to earlier
I can understand a bridgeport sized machine... but not on sherline, or something.
atleast it seems like that to me
even at circular interpolation.. at 1000mm/min
Jymmm : Im not sure what you mean by 5deg one, but you can get a higher lead acme screw thats small, you just increase the pitch by increasing the number of threads, 2 5 pitch threads 180deg apart, is a fast screw
* anonimasu feels a bit less scared of the mill now
anonimasu, if you have the motor power already, there is no point. But yes ballscrews have better machenical energy effeciency
* Jymmm hands anonimasu two wires
Jymmm : yep
I found servos today..
340v 12a ones ;)
I have 3/8" 10tpi acme... just haven't found an application for them.
for about 307$ each..
too bad I dont have a app for a motor like that..
a ballscrew is superior to any acme screw because of the reduction in friction alone, the heat saved alone may be worth the invenstment, or debt
gezr: I was of the impression that ACME screws had more backslash due to the design
isnt that correct?
well... I'm not one to speak. As I did convert my mill from acme to ballscrews. but only cause I got the screws and nuts for less than $300 in total with shipping I think.
Jymmm : those are really nice
anonimasu : you can preload any screw :)
I wonder what precision I'd get if I preloaded my screws..
gezr its all about $$$ =)
> gezr but well you cant really get away from variances in pitch..
anonimasu : think about it, thats what goes on inside a ball screws nut cage, varing ball sizes produce a preload within the nut, more preload means a stiffer machine, larger balls, but at what cost for extended life, there is a point at which too much needs replacement, and too little is too sloppy
yeah thats true
2 acme nuts with a cage to keep them contained, and a spring between them is a preload against a distance on the screw its self, exceed the force of the spring, and things change, too much spring force and you cant hardly turn the thing
yep that's how some people do with ballnuts too..
that's what I meant with preload..
anonimasu : what you can do is this, if you have nut||||nut where the |||| is how it atatches to the slide, you can grind a little off of one nut so that when its tightened against the |||| machine part and the other nut, you get your preload, or you can set the nuts a specific distance apart, and weld a bar across them, or drill and tap them, or have several drill and tapped holes, so that as the screw ages you can move to a new preload positon
gezr: I'll be getting another nut and machining a block to mount my both nuts at equal distance across the table..
there are a million ways to get as close to 0 as you can think of, if your looking at .0001 forget it, you cant keep your machine the same temp.
I am looking at 0.01
0.005.. somwhere around there when I am finished..
but I think I need a better machine first ;)
anonimasu, you shouldn't change the precision if you just preloaded the nuts... the precision is really in the nut and screw itself. As well as alignment of the scrwe to the table
anonimasu : just shoot for .05mm right?
0.05" that's easy. :D
gezr: I have 0.01 right now :) if i compensate for backslash
actually I don't know if it is easy
.01 is .0003 inch, you cant expect that
the screws are skf screws..
unless the stuff your using is ground
really, well within tolerances of anything you're gonna build. :)
gezr: good screws..
anonimasu, gezr, always, a good screw.
the electronic compensation is the most effective way of making a machine accurate, repeatable is another thing
well, if everything works out ok I'll be doing production work..
I dont know if emc has it, but I wouold when I get more brains be able to write in the compesated drill pattern stuff
so the cost dosent really matter :9
not that much atleast
anonimasu : just remember, nothing matters as far as backlash is concerned unless you reverse the screw :)
gezr: yeah, but it shouldnt be there..
the truest holes are made with a single pass, using either a hone(diamond for best) or a roller burnisher
everything that is the best is made with force,
you cant beat the hardness of a rolled screw, you cant beat the percision of a ground screw, go figure
I cant think about .0005 type accuracy, I cant afford it
I dont know if this holds true but the most accurate milling machines as far as a hole's location is, would be I think a full cnc, moore jig bore
* anonimasu can dream of that accuracy..
I dont need it that extreme..
but around 0.01 is nice
that enough for any kind of machining
except for nasa stuff ;)
my bad, .0005 inch
I typically type in inch
I do need to change that
or somthing close..
FWIW the thread on a dremel multi pro (model 395) where the collet fits into is: .28x40
heh it's easy to get caught in precision madness when working with cnc..
well, when you guys type in .01 i know your talkiing MM
the housing cap thread is: 3/4-12UN-3A
I think I need to order a 0.001 dial gauge.. someday
anonimasu : where are you located?
gezr: I'll order one via work so I get a great price
it would cost the price of a new one just to ship one to you
I have 2 .001 and one .0001
a set of 0-6 inch c-clamps
and a really nice 0-I think 75mm c-clamps
I wonder what precision a commercial machine has..
hm, the normal ones..
not the higher end ;)
they will say, +/-.001 accuracy and all that
thats in inch
* Jymmm is luck if he can get 1" precision
but thats at testing, "your results will varry"
that's not that extreme..
anonimasu : thats why I say, just shoot for .025mm and up, thats really really good
and your not making a mountain out of a mole hill
and your not going to become upset if its not .01 or .001
let the electronics do the fine work
if your screw
for a 1mHz, is each cycle is 1nS? or is it at 10mHz, each cycle is 1ns?
's pitch varries .05/foot you know,
1mhz => 1us
1sec = 1,000,000,000 nS.
nanno is billion I think
mili, micro, nano, pico?
gezr: yeah, but that can be compensated in software..
1ghz => 1ns
no, pico than nano.
crap, what was the nemonic for metric scales.
anonimasu : there you go :)
gezr: encoder on the scrwe..
anonimasu : or what the slightly more expensive big guys use, glass scale :)
along with the encoder and walla, true ferror
gezr: yeah.. but thoose are cheap on ebay
A-L-P-H-A: no you were right first time, nano (10^-9) then pico (10^-12)
milli, micro, nano, pico, gemto, atto, zepto, yocto.
going the other direction, kilo, mega, giga, tera, peta, exa, zetta, yotta.
[22:25:43] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.metrication.com/units/
* gezr sees the force is strong with yotta
gezr: although we need somone to code a algorithm to do that with emc ;)
gezr: donate me money so I can buy a scale for testing ;)
anonimasu : you probably have one, or can find one, in a guy with an older hp printer :)
anonimasu, I'll donate a $1, but charge you $10 for adminsitration fees.
the good machines are measured at factory also
and compensated in software..
anonimasu : just find a hp printer, that black plastic thing that looks like long sun glass is a very primitative glass scale
gezr: will it give me 0.001
anonimasu : for 8 inches :)
anonimasu : I dont know what the scale is tuned to, but it would be an accurate test
why not just buy an 8" one from HF. they're like $20. :) And they have an LCD display, and TTL output already
* anonimasu A-L-P-H-A +/- 0.03
and it has supposed resolution of 0.0005
they just suspend the scale from a spring tensioner and the diod block is in the carrage
and it has supposed resolution of 0.0005"
I didnt know hf had a glass scale
no, this is a absolute positioning calipre.
not glass scale.
anyway ... I just ot back from a business trip to see my clients in Geneva
someone on CCED was selling them a while back.
dunno what happened with that.
robin_z : how was the trip?
A-L-P-H-A: they are good, but they arent quite like glass scales ;)
gezr: just fine, the client paid for everyting and fed me well :)
gezr: wanna see a picture of me hard at work??
robin_z : mmmmm food
the CCED was selling glass scales.
robin_sz, I think that's only if you're fully clothed.
is is gezr seeing a picture of a suasage.
# taken yesterday
why do I type so poorly.
robin_z : hahahahah
:) ... the advantages of having clients in Switzerland :)
robin_z: downhill skiing?
anonimasu, as opposed to uphill skiing?
anonimasu: but of course.
* anonimasu is jealous
not that much actually :)
people still do cross country skiing?
Ive never been sking
yeah people here do it lots but it bores me to death
skiing stinks. SNOWBOARD... run over the skiers. :)
its great. its a sort of expensive toboganning for adultes :)
robin_sz, any nice snowbunnies? :)
sadly not, bad form when skiing with the clients to chase fluff
* anonimasu ushehe
robin_sz, you make it a game! :)
anyway ... back to motion control with you :)
hey "<insert client name here>", lets see if we can buy that snowbunnie a drink? :)
clients wife was also skiing with us
* paul_c will have a large "warm" beer
'warm' beer...? only from a brit.
they made me drink Kirsch
forced it down me they did.
by the gallon?
never heard of it.
<-- likes his Canadian beer. And stella.
strong alcohol, like vodka, made from cherries
OH! that stuff.
paul_c : they sell Miller Light in the pubs over there?
some swedes I know do that for fall/winter. At the swedish thing they do... some festivle in Toronto.
cold miller light
* anonimasu has never heard of that
just gl�wein :)
Miller? you mean yellow water, that was melted from yellow snow?
I like the way it tastes :)
anonimasu: can you sing helan gor for the benefit of the channel please
gezr, have you tried many different types of beer? Flavour is important. Miller just doesn't have it for me.
robin_z: never :)
* robin_z passes anonimasu the glass
robin_z: I pass out before I reach the stage where I could sing ;)
MGD isn't too bad for an yank beer... only cause it's bearable when cold.
anonimasu: I reach a stage where I *think* I can sing ...
anonimasu: then I pass out.
A-L-P-H-A : yeah I have, youth, burned the icy cold im gonna get wasted fast on this cheap stuff
robin_z: hehe nice
taste into me
beer to me is beer, I just enjoy the lighter american beers, I dont drink much if at all anymore
hmm... last time I was drunk... long time. Last time I was feeling warm... two weekends ago. Maybe I was drunk then... but probably least of the bunch of us.
some people couldn't remember stuff.
I blame the lights for hitting on this cute blonde girl... but had really bad teeth.
I remember being in a restaurant in Chamonix and a bunch of swedes did a full chorus of "the engineers song" .. imppressive.
very cute, until she smiled.
crooked teeth, not decaying. at least that.
seems like the further north you get, the strong the brew is.
beer or alcohol?
alcohol in gen.
A-L-P-H-A : you could have drunk those teeth straight you know.
* anonimasu nods
ann... I just kept getting groped by the girls in the group. oh well, all in good fun.
* anonimasu yawns
eyes got to reboot this box im on shortly, ill see you guys on the other side
I put two more debian boxes in over the last few days, one in London, one in Lausanne. all went well.
that auto quit message didnt sit well with me,
im beginning to like debian ;0
good, apt-get install bitchx
nah, only for servers
SWPadnos: Ok, contacted homeland security, as soon as you arrive at SFO, you'll be deported to antartica!
SWPadnos: Where are you staying (city)?
SFO - Hilton Fisherman's Wharf
* Jymmm doesn't like driving in the city
one short trolley ride from Moscone :)
I think there's a trolley line that goes past a BART station (the one near pier 1)
sorry - cable car
SWPadnos: there's lightrail which goes as far south as Gilroy
I though about looking into BART for my airport trips, but I'm gettin in late and leaving early - I don't want to deal
ok HF parking lot sale is sat/sun MArch 5&6th
from / to
I'm going to arrive around 10:30PM on 3/5, and there are actually classes on Sunday
SWPadnos: well I tried
plus I can't carry anything of significance back with me
SWPadnos: hey theres fedex ground
But there's always the House of Prime Rib
so there is
wheres that at?
Van Ness at Washington
oh in the city
of course - I'll be carless
(plus it's a good idea to take a long walk after eating there :) )
Yeah, kinda figured that part.
72 blocks is about right, unless you have dessert
yeow.... take a bus
or a cab
jk - it's around 15 blocks or so
How far is "one block" ?
between 0.1 miles and 0.5 miles, depending
paul_c total distance is 2 miles
from moscone to hofPR
Around the same from the hotel (2620 Jones Street)
maybe a bit closer
4:07 minutes driving
as a crow, or as a pedestrian?
Oh - good.
I'll probably get dessert anyway
.9 miles crow
actually less pedestrian as you can walk the wrong way on a one-way street
damn, i just left
gish I love mapping sw on my laptop
i have a feeling tonight isnt going to be a good one at all