#emc | Logs for 2005-02-25

[00:11:56] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[00:16:20] <Jymmm> it shouldn't take THAT long to install W98
[00:22:13] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/drivers/stgdiag.c: Should have added stgdiag.c a few days ago rather than wait for someone to complain it was missing... Ho hum.
[00:35:00] <anonimasu> goodnight
[00:35:01] <anonimasu> :)
[01:20:34] <Jymmm> it's sad that the most exercise I get is winding my flashlight
[02:36:58] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[02:37:02] <SWPadnos> Hello again
[02:37:13] <Jymmm> Howdy!
[02:37:35] <SWPadnos> Did you ever look at the other 48V supply I linked to (on eBay)?
[02:37:45] <SWPadnos> the $49.99 48V 13.75 A one
[02:38:04] <Jymmm> Actually I did, then someone pointed out the controller can only handle 30VDC max
[02:38:22] <SWPadnos> well - that's a pisser.
[02:38:34] <SWPadnos> you'd want an adjustable supply then, so you could upgrade drivers later
[02:38:57] <Jymmm> I saw a neat 24VDC@15A x 2 for $40+$20 shipping, but the feedback was questionable
[02:39:29] <Jymmm> Well, $300 was a lot for a PS
[02:39:53] <SWPadnos> I saw that one I think (though the one I saw might have been 48V, 1500W)
[02:40:09] <SWPadnos> I thought about it for my servos
[02:40:16] <SWPadnos> (series 15A at 96V)
[02:41:12] <Jymmm> 96VDC ? Would I ever need that?
[02:41:31] <SWPadnos> It's a bit high
[02:41:45] <SWPadnos> But within range for a Rutex drive and my servos
[02:42:21] <Jymmm> ah ok
[02:43:49] <Jymmm> gawd I need a real computer
[02:44:04] <SWPadnos> heh - I haven't bought a computer in 4 years
[02:44:09] <SWPadnos> and I write software all day
[02:44:51] <SWPadnos> (other than the kiosk PC for the CNC)
[02:44:52] <Jymmm> What I want doesn't exist
[02:45:04] <SWPadnos> a 12-processor desktop?
[02:45:44] <Jymmm> Nah, 1 cpu is fine.... Just 1gb L2 cache and 1ZB of ram
[02:46:00] <SWPadnos> What - a YB isn't enough :)
[02:46:12] <SWPadnos> (or is Yotta after Zetta?)
[02:46:21] <Jymmm> it might be
[02:47:02] <SWPadnos> http://www.orionmulti.com
[02:48:00] <Jymmm> see, that doesn't have the L2 cache I want
[02:48:11] <SWPadnos> I think you could manage
[02:48:16] <Jymmm> nope
[02:49:14] <Jymmm> Ah, this one http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11772&item=3876450939&rd=1
[02:49:16] <SWPadnos> Actually, the deskside 96-processor unit might have the cache you want
[02:50:20] <Jymmm> does it seem worth it ?
[02:50:25] <SWPadnos> Those are great supplies. - that's the same one I have, except for a different output configuration (mine's 60V/18A, still 1000W total)
[02:51:01] <Jymmm> well, thers a 150VDC @ 8A too, but I like the added amperage
[02:51:13] <SWPadnos> The only trouble with a regulated supply like this is that you wast a fair amount of power, and there isn't a lot of headroom to provide extra current when needed.
[02:51:30] <SWPadnos> current limiting will prevent any surges, which isn't beneficial in a motor application
[02:51:43] <SWPadnos> waste, that was
[02:51:51] <Jymmm> Oh, so it REALLY is better to have a non-regulated PS ?
[02:52:12] <SWPadnos> I think so. I'm not experienced in machine tool building, so I could be wrong.
[02:52:22] <SWPadnos> I am an electrical engineer, though
[02:52:51] <Jymmm> I read that on one of the controller websites, seemed funky till you said surge.
[02:53:05] <SWPadnos> Unless the regulated supply is rated way higher than you need, it won't allow itself to provide extra power when it's needed
[02:53:24] <Jymmm> so sruging on the motors isn't a big deal huh?
[02:53:38] <SWPadnos> In all cases, it will be wasting power, because it has to have a higher internal supply rail to allow for surges while maintaining regulated output
[02:54:13] <Jymmm> Ok, other than having a 85 lbs xmfr, is there an alternative?
[02:54:16] <SWPadnos> In a servo system, you may need 3-4x the rated current for short periods of time, on any motor that's accelerating.
[02:54:36] <SWPadnos> (my motors are rated for 9.2A continuous, 37A peak, each)
[02:54:54] <SWPadnos> (at 150V max)
[02:55:09] <Jymmm> are there torroids that will work?
[02:55:22] <SWPadnos> So, fo rshort periods, I could be pumping 6KW into each motor.
[02:56:02] <SWPadnos> I've never bought from them, but these guys seem to have good stuff: http://stores.ebay.com/antek-inc_W0QQssPageNameZl2QQtZkm
[02:58:01] <Jymmm> have you used torroids in a cnc application?
[02:58:07] <SWPadnos> nope
[02:58:12] <Jymmm> why not?
[02:58:20] <SWPadnos> I haven't used anything in a CNC application yet :)
[02:58:27] <SWPadnos> (I'm still retrofitting my first one)
[02:58:33] <Jymmm> oh, heh
[02:58:46] <SWPadnos> That's why I say I have no machine tool experience
[02:58:58] <Jymmm> I aks becasue I know a small magnetics company that will wind anything
[02:59:03] <Jymmm> brb
[02:59:18] <SWPadnos> Well - if you look at DigiKey, all of the "medical grade" transformers are toroids.
[03:07:48] <Jymmm> I dont look at digikey unless I have to
[03:07:59] <Jymmm> * Jymmm had to brew a pot
[03:08:20] <SWPadnos> It's good for worst-case price estimation :)
[03:08:28] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: true.
[03:08:53] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: so your an engineer? electrical or electronic?
[03:09:03] <SWPadnos> electronic, software
[03:09:12] <Jymmm> digital or analog?
[03:09:15] <SWPadnos> (power and motors were never my strong suit)
[03:09:27] <SWPadnos> I'm way more comfortable in the digital world
[03:09:32] <Jymmm> oh, so digital =)
[03:09:33] <SWPadnos> I have to think about analog stuff
[03:09:46] <SWPadnos> (though I can wade through the calculations for semiconductors as well...)
[03:10:02] <Jymmm> what about triacs and stuff?
[03:10:14] <Jymmm> (ac)
[03:10:18] <SWPadnos> I know what they are, and I can understand when people use them
[03:10:27] <SWPadnos> I wouldn't make any recommendations though
[03:10:39] <SWPadnos> (that's what a dimmer switch is)
[03:10:40] <Jymmm> then what good are ya for?! =)
[03:10:56] <SWPadnos> http://www.cncgear.com/MPG/
[03:11:08] <SWPadnos> (though I have a shitty camera)
[03:11:17] <Jymmm> Got Light?
[03:11:25] <SWPadnos> (which used to be a displosable, until I modified it)
[03:11:29] <SWPadnos> disposable
[03:11:30] <Jymmm> lol
[03:11:43] <Jymmm> not to worry, I'm not a wordsmith zealot
[03:11:55] <SWPadnos> I'm a perfectionist, I can't help it :)
[03:12:14] <Jymmm> well when you find a perfect world... until then
[03:12:20] <Jymmm> dont sweat the small shit
[03:12:50] <SWPadnos> I think I've found the limit for menu items in Win2k
[03:13:19] <SWPadnos> I thought the machine was about to crash - phew!
[03:14:18] <Jymmm> lol
[03:14:31] <SWPadnos> I had added a link to C:\ in my start menu
[03:14:45] <Jymmm> huh?
[03:15:03] <SWPadnos> That's a great thing, because you get a menu tree of your hard drive
[03:15:15] <Jymmm> is that all you want?
[03:15:19] <SWPadnos> you can descend subdirectories, and run any program/file on the drive
[03:15:41] <SWPadnos> the problem is, my download directory has around 850 items in it - the menu didn't want to scroll that far
[03:16:00] <Jymmm> I'm not following what you have, but it's no biggy.
[03:16:06] <SWPadnos> things got a l-i-t-t-l-e s--l--o---o-----o-------o-------w
[03:16:40] <SWPadnos> if you right-click the start menu, and select open, you can drag anything in there
[03:16:55] <Jymmm> right
[03:16:56] <SWPadnos> I just dragged a link to my C: drive (from My Computer)
[03:17:03] <Jymmm> ok
[03:17:11] <Jymmm> and your point is?
[03:17:24] <Jymmm> there are ways to modify how explorer displays things you know.
[03:17:25] <SWPadnos> now, above the Windows Update item, I have access to my entire drive, from the start menu
[03:17:33] <SWPadnos> Yeah - install Linux
[03:17:40] <Jymmm> no in w2k
[03:17:45] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:17:59] <SWPadnos> This is the start menu, not an explorer window
[03:18:03] <Jymmm> %SystemRoot%\explorer.exe /e,c:
[03:18:20] <Jymmm> * Jymmm has been doing M$ for 25+ years
[03:18:45] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos is sorry for Jymmm
[03:19:09] <Jymmm> no need, none of my servers are M$ =)
[03:19:19] <SWPadnos> Ah - OK then
[03:19:41] <SWPadnos> I'm just installing the Cygwin X server
[03:19:44] <SWPadnos> This shuold be fun
[03:19:58] <SWPadnos> must - not - correct - should
[03:20:43] <Jymmm> Look at the feedback... OUCH http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32720&item=3876633730&rd=1
[03:21:35] <Jymmm> MAn this is taking forever to copy over.
[03:21:42] <root> root is now known as cncwright
[03:23:30] <SWPadnos> Yeah - they seem a little bit questionable
[03:23:48] <SWPadnos> you could always drive over there and pick up the unit though
[03:24:14] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Now, here we go http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58286&item=3876656525&rd=1
[03:24:18] <Jymmm> SWPadnos true
[03:24:24] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: that one too
[03:24:33] <Jymmm> but it's 208VAC
[03:25:17] <SWPadnos> DUDE! that's a supply!
[03:25:45] <Jymmm> heh
[03:25:54] <SWPadnos> Yeah - 208V JPH (I suppose the guy has bad penmanship)
[03:26:12] <SWPadnos> I think you'd need 3phase for a 12kW supply
[03:26:43] <Jymmm> no matter, I'm not getting it unless it was stacked modules
[03:27:00] <SWPadnos> It's a stack of one
[03:27:07] <Jymmm> lol, yep
[03:27:39] <SWPadnos> CAUTION - WEIGHT OVER 60 POUNDS!
[03:28:03] <Jymmm> I saw that too, look at the eyelets on top for moving with a wench
[03:28:14] <SWPadnos> Aye - bring the moving wench
[03:28:27] <Jymmm> and DEAD WEIGHT too
[03:28:48] <SWPadnos> yeah - that's a heavy one. My 1Kw unit weighs around 30-40 pounds.
[03:29:35] <Jymmm> But since you said I can use unregulated... so be it
[03:29:43] <Jymmm> or should use
[03:29:57] <SWPadnos> The driver is a regulator, so you really don't need it in the supply
[03:30:02] <Jymmm> so, now I just needs some mags and caps
[03:30:25] <SWPadnos> I got a 1000V/50A bridge rectifier on eBay
[03:30:33] <SWPadnos> plus some 17000 uF / 150V caps
[03:30:56] <Jymmm> caps are easy to come by around town, it's the mags that confuse me
[03:31:10] <SWPadnos> you mean transformer (magnetics)?
[03:31:21] <Jymmm> correct...
[03:31:35] <Jymmm> xfmr, torroid, chokes, etc
[03:31:53] <SWPadnos> Search around a bit. I found one (on ebay) within driving distance - $20, 1500VA
[03:32:34] <Jymmm> Well, I'd rather find some ferroit cores and loearn to wind my own torroids.
[03:32:59] <SWPadnos> 40V 10A is only 400VA, multiply by 1.8 or so, and you need a 750 VA transformer
[03:33:23] <Jymmm> but xfmr's are HEAVY
[03:33:28] <SWPadnos> don't wind your own. you may want to add/remove some windings on one, but there are a lot of things to know to make your own
[03:33:34] <Jymmm> take up a LOT of room too
[03:33:38] <SWPadnos> Mine's around 25 pounds.
[03:33:44] <SWPadnos> 7X7X8 inches
[03:34:01] <Jymmm> your xfmr?
[03:34:05] <SWPadnos> You can't make them any smaller and still have the same power rating
[03:34:11] <SWPadnos> yes , my xfmr
[03:34:16] <Jymmm> why not?
[03:34:24] <SWPadnos> size is what gives it the power handling capacity
[03:35:26] <Jymmm> I've seen some serious VA on a couple torroids before
[03:35:35] <Jymmm> the $$$$ went with it too
[03:35:58] <SWPadnos> I think toroids can be smaller. they keep the magnetic field inside the ring
[03:36:11] <SWPadnos> (probably why they're used in medical systems)
[03:36:51] <SWPadnos> Also, remember that the transformer is a dead short - it's just a wire. you have to make sure that the inductance is enough so that you get no leakage current at 60 HZ
[03:37:01] <SWPadnos> itherwise it's like plugging a wire into the outlet
[03:37:53] <SWPadnos> (I still don't really get that part)
[03:37:54] <Jymmm> yep, but they do it somehow.
[03:38:22] <SWPadnos> exactly - let them figure it out, then add or remove some windings on the secondary
[03:38:29] <SWPadnos> if you need to adjust voltage
[03:38:48] <Jymmm> nah, I want to wind my own. I just need the calcs
[03:38:59] <Jymmm> wind my own torroids, not xfrm
[03:39:18] <SWPadnos> same deal - you're just putting a wire on a doughnut core
[03:39:25] <SWPadnos> instead of an E-shaped one
[03:41:21] <Jymmm> I dont think so.
[03:41:47] <SWPadnos> don't think which?
[03:41:58] <Jymmm> it's that straight forward.
[03:42:22] <SWPadnos> right - it's just as complex as a "standard" transformer, i's just a different shape
[03:42:33] <Jymmm> No, it's not
[03:42:49] <SWPadnos> Why not?
[03:42:54] <Jymmm> torroid xfmr are 5 times the cost
[03:43:10] <SWPadnos> They're very difficult to wind by machine
[03:43:11] <Jymmm> they are dramamtically smaller too for the electrical equiv
[03:43:42] <SWPadnos> yes - the magnetic coupling is nearly lossless, the magnetic fields stay within the toroidal core
[03:44:05] <SWPadnos> with a standad one, they go well outside the core, and those field lines are "lost" to the transformer
[03:45:50] <Jymmm> http://www.toroid.com/standard_transformers/transformer_kits/transformer_kits.htm
[03:46:56] <SWPadnos> Hey - that's not bad.
[03:47:33] <SWPadnos> the size of their 1400VA is around 1/2 the size of my 1500VA
[03:47:46] <Jymmm> see what I mean
[03:47:47] <SWPadnos> (though mine is actually 2000VA UL, 1500 CE)
[03:47:59] <Jymmm> big deal on the ul/ce
[03:48:10] <SWPadnos> Well - it's a temperature / safety issue
[03:48:26] <SWPadnos> I'm fine with the UL rating, which is less stringent than CE in this case
[03:48:27] <Jymmm> get a fuse
[03:48:50] <SWPadnos> A fuse doesn't help - it's the heat buildup in the core and wire
[03:49:01] <Jymmm> fuse melt when too hot too
[03:49:11] <SWPadnos> You can overcurrent the transformer significantly, as long as the average power is low enough
[03:49:24] <SWPadnos> in fact, this happens 120 times/sec in a bulk supply
[03:49:52] <Jymmm> Built-in thermal fuse rated at 130 � C
[03:50:04] <SWPadnos> even better :)
[03:50:26] <Jymmm> now yo know why I would like to learn to wind my own.
[03:50:44] <Jymmm> shipping is expensive!
[03:50:51] <Jymmm> so is packaging
[03:50:55] <SWPadnos> You'd be better off getting one of theirs and winding the secondary only
[03:51:44] <Jymmm> SURVIVOR!
[03:51:47] <Jymmm> bbl
[03:51:49] <SWPadnos> get the cores here http://www.alphacore.com/ocore.htm
[04:07:52] <SWPadnos> actually - I just remeasured my transformer - it's 6x6x7 (64% of the size I thought)
[04:08:41] <SWPadnos> it's also 2kVA at 50/60 HZ which means 2.4kVA at 60 hz, or 1.7x the toroid kit
[04:09:11] <SWPadnos> and it's about 1.9x the ize, but that's with the windings, and the toroid is without.
[04:09:36] <SWPadnos> It looks like they're pretty similar in size (though the toroid is round, so a bit of space is saved there)
[04:13:41] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_away
[04:53:29] <Jymmm> Yeah, I'll have to check it out further
[07:26:43] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Red70sShow
[07:26:43] <Red70sShow> Red70sShow is now known as Jymmm
[11:49:36] <anonimasu> good morning
[12:20:20] <paul_c> * paul_c returns from lunch.
[12:32:40] <anonimasu> how's it going?
[13:03:31] <rayh> Hey. Just got breakfast and life is good.
[13:05:40] <paul_c> and it's trying to snow over here...
[13:06:09] <rayh> Better you than me. Got enough here.
[13:06:46] <anonimasu> nice
[13:06:49] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is tired
[13:08:49] <paul_c> * paul_c has to go out...
[13:09:17] <paul_c> be back in four or five hours.
[13:09:32] <rayh> paul_c: Thanks for the wiki page on compiling. Got the debs. Just need to work through one.
[13:10:08] <rayh> Got to pick up granddaughter catch you tomorrow.
[13:10:35] <paul_c> Trying to decide how to sqeeze the dev tools in to the remaining 3Megs
[13:11:05] <paul_c> maybe dropping the samba stuff would be the easiest way.
[13:11:33] <rayh> It would but some will loose a useful tool.
[13:12:23] <rayh> I can see DVD's in the future.
[13:12:56] <anonimasu> you could drop a heap of stuff..
[13:13:00] <anonimasu> kde for example..
[13:13:17] <paul_c> I don't think DVDs are viable at the moment...
[13:13:34] <anonimasu> I think you should go with a more lightweight wm..
[13:13:57] <rayh> anonimasu: ray would be lost without some kde.
[13:14:11] <anonimasu> :/
[13:14:12] <anonimasu> I hate kde..
[13:14:31] <anonimasu> it's the heaviest wm there is in the whole world.. except for enlightenment.. but that's supposed to be run with 3d accel..
[13:15:07] <rayh> It is big and can be buggy.
[13:15:11] <anonimasu> paul_c: maybe dropping some of the programs bundeled with kde?
[13:15:34] <anonimasu> I never got along with it because it's way too slow :)
[13:16:00] <rayh> It does make one want a faster processor.
[13:16:35] <anonimasu> oh, its not the proc.. its the wm... :)
[13:16:55] <anonimasu> fvwm2 is ligtning fast on every computer that can launch X ;)
[13:17:30] <anonimasu> I can justify buying a 3ghz for running the mill.. but not managing the wm..
[13:17:54] <jepler> icewm is my favorite wm of many years. It's not as "lite" as fvwm2, but it's pretty snappy.
[13:17:56] <rayh> What does fvwm2 use for a graphics package?
[13:18:22] <jepler> rayh: just xlib, I think
[13:18:48] <jepler> it doesn't use motif or openlook, and it's too old to be gtk or qt or any of those
[13:19:11] <rayh> Okay. I seem to remember that it could run some of the kde packages back in the early days.
[13:19:44] <jepler> I don't get your meaning. It should be able to run apps from gnome or kde, all it has to do is paint their title bars
[13:20:00] <paul_c> I could use a different wm, but that would cause serious problems elsewhere
[13:20:11] <anonimasu> if thatyep..
[13:20:31] <anonimasu> you can run gnome + fvwm..
[13:21:01] <paul_c> and if you don't like kde, apt-get something else.
[13:21:30] <anonimasu> paul_c: oh, as far as I am concerned, I could burn a dvd for each revision...
[13:21:57] <anonimasu> or download the dev tools..
[13:22:58] <anonimasu> :)
[13:23:29] <paul_c> http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/cdzap.html
[13:23:39] <rayh> Second disk may be the easiest solution.
[13:24:24] <anonimasu> but, well I see kde as a space hog ;) or well the apps bundled togther..
[13:24:46] <anonimasu> but that's because I am anti kde :D
[13:25:29] <jepler> It would be interesting to know how much the image size would change if it was icewm or fvwm2 instead of kde (and yeah, that means getting rid of the kde apps too)
[13:26:03] <jepler> but if paul's the one doing the work we shouldn't argue too much
[13:28:00] <anonimasu> hehe
[13:28:15] <rayh> There are probably not to many of us left on very slow dialup.
[13:28:51] <paul_c> most of Asia...
[13:29:26] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is going to make a real debian install someday or even better slack..
[13:30:16] <paul_c> I've gotta go.
[13:30:20] <anonimasu> ok
[13:30:31] <paul_c> * paul_c is away: Gone to town.
[13:30:36] <rayh> See you.
[13:30:44] <anonimasu> laters
[13:33:02] <anonimasu> * anonimasu slaps the PLC
[13:34:37] <anonimasu> I'll be back later aswell
[13:56:00] <rayh> Mornin terry.
[14:24:16] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as MrAsshole
[14:24:21] <MrAsshole> MrAsshole is now known as Jymmm
[14:30:57] <alex_joni> greetings
[14:31:12] <rayh> Hi Alex.
[14:31:17] <alex_joni> hey ray
[14:32:00] <rayh> * rayh is on the phone
[14:41:52] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is listening to the Duke
[14:45:05] <Jymmm> eligton?
[14:45:09] <Jymmm> elington?
[14:45:11] <alex_joni> right
[14:45:46] <Jymmm> too early for big band!
[14:46:56] <alex_joni> it's almost 1700 here ;)
[14:47:09] <Jymmm> [06:51:46] <alex_joni> it's almost 1700 here ;)
[14:47:22] <alex_joni> [16:55] <Jymmm> [06:51:46] <alex_joni> it's almost 1700 here ;)
[14:47:35] <alex_joni> :-)
[14:47:44] <Jymmm> your clock is WRONG buddy! lol
[14:47:57] <alex_joni> lol
[14:48:09] <Jymmm> and it's fast too
[14:48:12] <alex_joni> wtf are you doing up at 06:51 ?
[14:48:24] <alex_joni> that's way too early for anything ;)
[14:48:25] <Jymmm> looking for a laser
[14:48:29] <alex_joni> including big band
[14:48:35] <alex_joni> still up or already up?
[14:48:54] <Jymmm> woke up almost an hour ago
[14:50:31] <alex_joni> bugger that ;)
[14:50:42] <alex_joni> I can't wake up before 7 :)
[14:50:50] <alex_joni> that's against my nature
[14:51:06] <Jymmm> the other day I went to bed at midnight and woke up at 3am
[14:51:42] <Jymmm> finding this laser is stressing me out. Almost thought I wasn't going to pass my physical the other day.
[14:51:58] <alex_joni> I used to do that all the time... but I can't keep up anymore if I keep doing it ...
[14:53:31] <Jymmm> Actually, I almost didn't pass my physical (doc was only gonna certify me for one year), but he let me slide and I got two year cert
[14:53:49] <alex_joni> what kind of cert?
[14:55:14] <Jymmm> I have q commercial drivers license (though I haven't driven commerically in over 10 years), you have to have a valid medical cert on file to renew your drivers license or they'll revolk the commercial portion of it, and it's too difficult getting it back if you loose it.
[14:56:54] <alex_joni> what's q?
[14:56:58] <alex_joni> trucks and such?
[14:57:00] <Jymmm> a typoa
[14:57:07] <alex_joni> we have A,B,C,...
[14:57:27] <Jymmm> Class B with endorsements
[14:57:31] <alex_joni> I see
[15:01:10] <rayh> alex_joni: Any new thoughts on xml and config?
[15:01:37] <alex_joni> well...
[15:01:43] <alex_joni> that's tough ;)
[15:01:55] <alex_joni> but I think a DTD can be written
[15:01:59] <alex_joni> and the parses after that
[15:02:02] <alex_joni> or using that
[15:02:10] <alex_joni> s/parses/parser/
[15:03:08] <rayh> There was some thought that the DTD would be the logic that built the ini for a specific machine. Is that what you are thinking?
[15:03:32] <alex_joni> the DTD validates the config (the xml config anyways)
[15:03:34] <alex_joni> right?
[15:03:54] <alex_joni> don't think it can validate an file like emc.ini
[15:04:09] <alex_joni> but it can validate the data before it's written into a file like emc.ini
[15:04:29] <rayh> I was thinking that the DTD would validate all of the possible vars in an emc section
[15:04:47] <alex_joni> I thought the DTD is per var
[15:04:54] <alex_joni> like: in AXIS you have values
[15:04:59] <rayh> The DTD would keep the master file honest.
[15:05:05] <alex_joni> right
[15:05:19] <alex_joni> but it can do the same to the values that get into the master file
[15:05:21] <rayh> Not the specific machine configuration.
[15:05:39] <rayh> I think that the DTD for each machine would be very difficult to setup.
[15:05:49] <alex_joni> not a DTD for each machine
[15:05:57] <alex_joni> I'm not making myself clear
[15:06:06] <alex_joni> lets back up a bit
[15:06:09] <rayh> * rayh is all eyes.
[15:06:18] <alex_joni> the configurator loads an master xml-file
[15:06:32] <rayh> yes
[15:06:40] <alex_joni> that master xml-file doesn't need to be validated
[15:06:51] <alex_joni> because it's written by developers only
[15:06:57] <alex_joni> who know what they're doing ;)
[15:07:03] <alex_joni> (I mean by us)
[15:07:04] <alex_joni> :P
[15:07:13] <rayh> lol
[15:07:27] <alex_joni> but.. the configurator needs some rules for each variable inside that master xml config file
[15:07:36] <alex_joni> and those rules can be expressed using DTD
[15:08:01] <alex_joni> like: for UNITS you can have 1.0 or the value for inch (too long to remember)
[15:08:27] <alex_joni> and the DTD says just that, the variable UNITS can only be one of the two (1.0 , 0.0xxxx)
[15:08:28] <Jymmm> http://www.w3.org/XML/
[15:08:48] <alex_joni> I know this might hijack the purpose of the DTD a bit ;)
[15:09:15] <alex_joni> then.. the configurator reads the master-file
[15:09:18] <alex_joni> and the DTD
[15:09:34] <alex_joni> and based of those two it creates the interface (be it tcl, or menuconfig, or whatever)
[15:09:46] <alex_joni> does this make any sense?
[15:12:07] <Jymmm> alex_joni: The document type declaration MUST appear before the first element in the document.
[15:12:22] <rayh> Would it not be easier to <axis><UNITS, type=int><inch = 0.01///><mm=1.0000><cm=10.0000>
[15:12:41] <rayh> oops. type=float
[15:13:12] <rayh> something heirarichial(sp) would keep all the stuff in one place.
[15:13:16] <Jymmm> rayh do yo really want to mix case like that?
[15:13:37] <rayh> don't know
[15:13:46] <Jymmm> * Jymmm sighs....
[15:13:47] <rayh> Is it a problem for the parser?
[15:14:03] <Jymmm> in XML... you MUST have a DTD for it to be valid
[15:14:14] <Jymmm> and UNITS is not the same as units
[15:14:19] <SWP_away> SWP_away is now known as SWPadnos
[15:14:24] <SWPadnos> hello
[15:14:40] <rayh> Okay. We can upcase easy enough in tickle.
[15:15:01] <Jymmm> * Jymmm never said he didn't know XML, he said he didn't like XML
[15:15:17] <Jymmm> rayh better to lowercase everything
[15:15:28] <rayh> for the ini var to be valid when read into globals it must be upcase and use no spaces.
[15:15:34] <alex_joni> hey SWP
[15:15:54] <rayh> That works for me.
[15:16:06] <SWPadnos> I think I need coffee *before* joining this discussion :)
[15:16:16] <Jymmm> * Jymmm backs out of it
[15:16:16] <alex_joni> how about "axis" ?
[15:16:32] <alex_joni> we didn't mean to scare you away ;)
[15:16:39] <rayh> Jymmm: No! We need you.
[15:16:49] <alex_joni> any, and I emphasize on ANY, ideeas are welcome
[15:16:50] <anonimasu> hi
[15:16:54] <rayh> You seem to know much more about this than I do.
[15:17:06] <alex_joni> * alex_joni joins rayh on this matter
[15:17:16] <alex_joni> an0n: hey there
[15:17:18] <Jymmm> XML is evil
[15:17:23] <alex_joni> found your vertical bug?
[15:17:26] <anonimasu> Jymmm: why?
[15:17:28] <anonimasu> alex_joni: nope
[15:17:36] <Jymmm> anonimasu too many reasons to list
[15:17:46] <alex_joni> an0n: might be a 2D-ant
[15:18:05] <rayh> In your opinion is it a bad thing to use for this specific database like task?
[15:18:12] <anonimasu> haha
[15:18:31] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I dont get how you want to define the valid configuration options.. and their ranges..
[15:18:46] <Jymmm> rayh: XML was NEVER intended to be used as data storage, it was intented for data transport.
[15:18:58] <alex_joni> right
[15:19:03] <alex_joni> how about this...
[15:19:14] <alex_joni> having XML to define valid symbols
[15:19:17] <anonimasu> Jymmm: you dont have to use it as storage.
[15:19:18] <rayh> I understand that and in a way we are transporting a valid set of possible configuration variables.
[15:19:31] <anonimasu> just to define whats valid options for the config program that generates your config
[15:19:51] <anonimasu> kind of like a class definition..
[15:20:01] <rayh> Hell every xml doc ever written is a database.
[15:20:09] <alex_joni> Jymm: create a list: <axis nr=0><p></p><i></i>...</axis><axis nr=1>....</axis>
[15:20:11] <Jymmm> rayh bullshit
[15:20:25] <alex_joni> the xml simply defines the nesting of variables into blocks and such
[15:20:27] <SWPadnos> In that regard, a system like KBuild might actually be superior, and it already has configurators
[15:20:33] <rayh> It contains the title, author, ...
[15:20:43] <Jymmm> * Jymmm backs out of this (again)
[15:20:43] <alex_joni> SWP: talk a bit about kbuild
[15:20:48] <rayh> No.
[15:21:01] <rayh> I can handle as much disagreement as anyone else.
[15:21:01] <alex_joni> Jymmm: no-one is in favor of XML
[15:21:19] <rayh> I want the best configuration system we can build.
[15:21:26] <alex_joni> if you got a better ideea .. we could swap in a second ;)
[15:21:28] <rayh> If kbuid is it then lets go there.
[15:21:41] <rayh> If mysql then that's it.
[15:21:48] <Jymmm> In 25+ years of fucking wtith computers, there is only one data syntax/format/datastore I hate... Wanna guess what it is?????
[15:21:53] <rayh> You bet.
[15:22:02] <rayh> xml??
[15:22:12] <Jymmm> bingo
[15:22:26] <SWPadnos> Well - I'm no expert on KBuild, but if you've ever configured a kernel, you've selected between specific options, entered values that had ranges specified, prevented ot enabled other options from showing up by selecting sometihng else, and had conflict resolution to prevent invalid configs.
[15:22:27] <rayh> K then lets find something that we can live with.
[15:22:42] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees
[15:22:53] <Jymmm> rayh: hell you can use SQLite for that matter
[15:22:57] <anonimasu> Jymmm: invent a better one.. or find somthing you like better...
[15:23:11] <alex_joni> I think of it this way:
[15:23:14] <rayh> I'm open to anything.
[15:23:18] <SWPadnos> SQL won't prevent you from selecting conflicting settings
[15:23:19] <anonimasu> we cant really argue forever about it..
[15:23:24] <anonimasu> :)
[15:23:26] <alex_joni> 1. we want something pretty simple for the user to work with
[15:23:42] <alex_joni> 2. we would like something easy to implement
[15:23:42] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: actually it could
[15:23:46] <rayh> I do like the notion of heirarchial storage but relational will handle that.
[15:23:50] <jepler> As somebody who's never directly worked with xml (but uses software that uses xml behind-the-scenes), xml seems to be just fine
[15:24:24] <rayh> SQL will if you save a ruleset in the database.
[15:24:28] <Jymmm> you could define one tables with a limits set, then another table with settings.
[15:24:59] <anonimasu> yeah, but are you going to re-define thoose tables whenever somone adds somthing?
[15:25:09] <Jymmm> BUT, I'd much rather have a plain text configuration, it's just that SQLite allows for text dumbs easially enough
[15:25:11] <anonimasu> that would require you to create and parse a database with rules..
[15:25:16] <rayh> I do see this master configuration thing as a database.
[15:25:21] <Jymmm> anonimasu: nope, just add a new one
[15:25:37] <anonimasu> Jymmm: awky.. imo
[15:26:04] <Jymmm> anonimasu yeah, but you could build a master library for different things too
[15:26:15] <rayh> I think that we are getting someplace here -- brainstorming.
[15:26:52] <Jymmm> anonimasu: I'm not saying its perfect, but hell of a lot better then XML and then theres logic involved
[15:27:14] <rayh> The kernel guys add stuff all the time. There are not a whole lot of rules there though.
[15:27:36] <anonimasu> hm, anything is fine by me, but I see a format that allows you easily define what is allowed.. and which variables belongs to what..
[15:27:56] <anonimasu> even though that might not be pure XML, but somthing similiar..
[15:28:08] <rayh> Yes we need to run possibiles through a allowed thing.
[15:28:18] <anonimasu> a database might be it also, but a database dosent allow for as easy editing, as a plain file..
[15:28:28] <rayh> But it also needs an override button.
[15:28:32] <Jymmm> anonimasu: I agree. I was just throwing SQLite into the kitty as it's BSD licensed, very small, and easy in itself.
[15:28:41] <anonimasu> yeah
[15:28:48] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[15:28:59] <Jymmm> What about CSS style...
[15:29:15] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I dont know how that looks got a good example?
[15:29:22] <Jymmm> .this{} is overwritten by .that{}
[15:29:56] <rayh> Is there the possibility of html front end to SQLight
[15:29:57] <Jymmm> Bascially the way style sheets work is one set builds upon another.
[15:30:38] <Jymmm> so you could define shit{green} but later on say shit{purple}
[15:31:06] <Jymmm> or say shit{purple} but only in certain areas
[15:31:28] <Jymmm> .tuesday shit{blue}
[15:31:34] <Jymmm> understnad?
[15:31:41] <anonimasu> yes
[15:31:48] <rayh> * rayh phone will watch
[15:32:14] <jepler> maybe you could use a different example besides s--t?
[15:32:15] <Jymmm> and the nice part is you can have a lot of external files and call them one after another
[15:33:05] <Jymmm> so main.css calls tool_changer.css
[15:33:07] <Jymmm> as example
[15:33:21] <anonimasu> how does the syntax within that file look?
[15:33:52] <anonimasu> how would you define a axis like that?
[15:34:17] <anonimasu> or rather allowable values in the configurator for the axis you are setting up..
[15:34:22] <Jymmm> http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-REC.css
[15:35:01] <Jymmm> css syntax is very straight forward, much like ini but a better
[15:35:35] <anonimasu> Jymmm: that's more like a actual config, and not the definition of a config
[15:36:49] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Right, but what I'm saying is the syntax of it could be used
[15:37:05] <alex_joni> sorry.. I was in the phone
[15:37:10] <alex_joni> on the phone =))
[15:39:13] <alex_joni> how is CSS better than XML?
[15:39:22] <anonimasu> * anonimasu cant see that really
[15:39:29] <alex_joni> and to keep it straight.. I'm not talking about an valid XML
[15:39:37] <alex_joni> I'm talking about an XML-like document
[15:39:39] <anonimasu> * anonimasu neither
[15:39:41] <anonimasu> xml-ish
[15:39:42] <anonimasu> ;)
[15:39:49] <alex_joni> if it's not validated by w3c ;) .. who cares
[15:40:03] <alex_joni> doesn't need to be xml-like either
[15:40:11] <alex_joni> it can be anyhow
[15:40:18] <alex_joni> we need two things
[15:40:19] <SWPadnos> Ah - found it! Here's a CML2 (KBuild) language description http://www.catb.org/~esr/cml2/cml2-paper.html
[15:40:31] <alex_joni> 1. a master config file
[15:40:38] <alex_joni> which says what fields there are
[15:40:55] <alex_joni> e.g. what the GUI will present to the user during the config
[15:41:06] <alex_joni> 2. a set of rules by which the fields can be filled
[15:41:13] <alex_joni> 1 and 2 can be in the same file
[15:41:21] <alex_joni> in different files, doesn't really matter
[15:42:27] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[15:43:38] <alex_joni> it needs to be something that can be manually adjusted (by adding and removing fields)
[15:44:09] <alex_joni> it needs to be easiely parsed by various configurators
[15:45:00] <SWPadnos> So far, something based on CML2/KBuild seems to fit all the criteria
[15:45:12] <SWPadnos> it can include files for other drivers
[15:45:39] <SWPadnos> (so similar to adding a line in a makefile, a line gets added to the CML master file to include the options for the new driver)
[15:45:47] <alex_joni> include somthing else is a nice ideea
[15:46:22] <SWPadnos> It has rules like "A implies B", so if you select an output as EStop, it can automatically include the "EStop" modules
[15:46:56] <SWPadnos> or the other way around - having an EStop output requires that EStop be included
[15:47:04] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders if paul_c is around ;)
[15:47:13] <alex_joni> I'll soon find out... *g*
[15:47:17] <anonimasu> * anonimasu pokes paul_c
[15:47:31] <SWPadnos> There are QT, KDE, and curses based configurtors
[15:47:32] <alex_joni> the kbuild stuff could even generate Makefiles... ;)
[15:47:43] <alex_joni> or include files for the Makefiles
[15:47:43] <SWPadnos> (paul_c is out fro a while)
[15:47:50] <SWPadnos> yes in deed
[15:48:02] <alex_joni> then I'm safe ... *G*
[15:48:04] <SWPadnos> and it's included in every 2.5.x + kernel distribution
[15:48:16] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos too
[15:48:16] <alex_joni> CML1 is from 2.3.x
[15:48:27] <SWPadnos> CML2 is 2.5.x
[15:48:55] <alex_joni> hmm.. but can you define free values in CML2 ?
[15:49:05] <SWPadnos> free like what?
[15:49:16] <alex_joni> like I'd expect for X-travel
[15:49:22] <alex_joni> minimum SW limit
[15:49:25] <alex_joni> can be an int
[15:49:30] <alex_joni> max SW limit
[15:49:33] <alex_joni> also an int
[15:49:44] <SWPadnos> yes - you can have ranged or free, and I think they can be typed as well
[15:49:50] <SWPadnos> (not sure about typing)
[15:49:55] <alex_joni> string...
[15:49:56] <alex_joni> float
[15:49:59] <alex_joni> etc
[15:50:21] <SWPadnos> as an example, in the kernel config, there's an option for log size
[15:50:57] <SWPadnos> it must be a power of 2, and can't be less than 16k (I think), or higher than 128K (I think)
[15:51:26] <jepler> cml2 might not support floating-point values.
[15:51:38] <SWPadnos> you can do strings, though one of the features that isn't there is string concatenation
[15:51:39] <jepler> certainly kernel configuration never took non-integer values
[15:51:47] <SWPadnos> Right - I'm not sure about floats
[15:52:01] <anonimasu> it probably does..
[15:52:19] <SWPadnos> I'd bet that it's easy to add new types - the software was designed, then implemented :)
[15:53:19] <alex_joni> jepler: it's written in Python ....
[15:53:21] <anonimasu> http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/chemweb/2002-November/002847.html
[15:53:31] <jepler> alex_joni: yeah, esr was pretty hot about python for awhile
[15:53:48] <anonimasu> 2. there is much stronger datatyping; elements can be validated against the
[15:53:49] <anonimasu> Periodic tables and floats, integers etc are fully supported
[15:54:48] <jepler> periodic tables?
[15:54:57] <jepler> you mean I can specify helium as a configuration property?
[15:54:57] <anonimasu> CML is short for chemical makeup language
[15:55:18] <alex_joni> chemical?
[15:56:00] <anonimasu> jepler: probably
[15:56:04] <alex_joni> thought we were talking about configuration menu language
[15:56:14] <alex_joni> must be some different CML ;)
[15:56:19] <SWPadnos> well - that's the *other* cml
[15:56:30] <alex_joni> kbuild CML2
[15:56:32] <anonimasu> nope..
[15:56:32] <anonimasu> :)
[15:56:38] <Jymmm> hey, you could have a CO2 laser attached =)
[15:56:43] <anonimasu> http://cml.sourceforge.net/
[15:56:58] <SWPadnos> SELECT (CO2) FROM [Laser_Types]
[15:57:21] <anonimasu> or is it?
[15:57:23] <Jymmm> or CO2_LASER.Power(50%)
[15:57:26] <alex_joni> select C and O then CO2 from CO, CO2...
[15:57:33] <alex_joni> lol
[15:57:42] <SWPadnos> *boom*
[15:57:46] <anonimasu> that's like ( A not quite B possibly C )
[15:57:47] <anonimasu> ;)
[15:58:05] <SWPadnos> almost A implies not quite Z
[15:58:19] <Jymmm> or shark_mounted_laser(attacke)
[15:58:23] <Jymmm> -e
[15:58:31] <anonimasu> haha
[15:58:32] <alex_joni> where's my minime?
[15:58:36] <anonimasu> what?
[15:58:36] <alex_joni> or was it minimill?
[15:58:42] <anonimasu> ah :)
[15:58:49] <alex_joni> my evil minimill
[15:58:51] <alex_joni> lol
[15:58:56] <SWPadnos> yeah - a Sherline next to a Bridgeport, both with lasers :)
[15:59:04] <alex_joni> 3....
[15:59:05] <alex_joni> 2.....
[15:59:07] <alex_joni> 1.....
[15:59:10] <alex_joni> lets rumble
[15:59:51] <rayh> looks to me like cml is just about as bad as xml.
[16:00:05] <SWPadnos> OK - so CML2 has the intent of selecting options, and writing them to a text file
[16:00:20] <SWPadnos> restricting those options based on other options
[16:00:25] <anonimasu> haha
[16:00:27] <anonimasu> rayh: yeah
[16:00:30] <SWPadnos> selecting things based on other selections
[16:00:44] <SWPadnos> (XML has the advantage of being viewable with a number of tools)
[16:00:46] <alex_joni> rayh: the only advantage of CML would that you could use an existing configurator (make menuconfig, make xconfig, etc)
[16:01:06] <alex_joni> and it would write Makefiles...
[16:01:18] <SWPadnos> or other text files
[16:01:21] <alex_joni> just to make things tougher
[16:02:02] <rayh> i could really see the advantage of it for makefiles in emc.
[16:02:25] <rayh> I remember that we talked about that a while back.
[16:02:51] <rayh> I suppose that if we put the tools in there for make we could borrow them for config.
[16:03:24] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[16:03:42] <rayh> The only issue I see is that xconfig now uses qt.
[16:03:46] <Jymmm> #include <blah.h>
[16:03:47] <SWPadnos> So - I was looking at bridgeportmain.cc, you could just about write the iniLoad function with KBuild
[16:04:56] <rayh> I didn't want to know that!!!
[16:05:16] <alex_joni> SWP: shush
[16:05:24] <rayh> Now we're getting back into runtime.
[16:05:28] <SWPadnos> luckily, it's the same QT that KDE uses :)
[16:05:39] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos starts being quieter
[16:05:58] <alex_joni> we already got GTK on our dependency list
[16:06:05] <alex_joni> so adding QT is not a plus ;)
[16:06:16] <SWPadnos> There's a GTK version of XConfig
[16:06:21] <alex_joni> SWP: was meant as a joke
[16:06:26] <rayh> I already accused John of creating DLL hell with HAL
[16:06:27] <SWPadnos> I know :)
[16:06:33] <anonimasu> haha
[16:06:38] <alex_joni> DLL?
[16:06:49] <SWPadnos> DLL in the generic sense, not the Windows sense
[16:06:55] <SWPadnos> like DLL=.so
[16:07:08] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I thought you were gonna be quieter?
[16:07:13] <rayh> Allowing for changing the config of HAL on the fly based on HAL pin values.
[16:07:21] <Jymmm> SWPadnos =)
[16:07:30] <SWPadnos> I lied
[16:07:52] <alex_joni> rayh: right
[16:07:57] <alex_joni> but it keeps it flexible
[16:08:21] <Jymmm> SWPadnos lol
[16:08:33] <rayh> And a few similar things could be attempted with emc1
[16:09:13] <rayh> Like the location of io pins for bridgeport.
[16:09:26] <alex_joni> HAL is pretty much a good thing
[16:09:31] <rayh> More difficult with freqmod and step and direction pins.
[16:09:46] <alex_joni> I personaly don't see the needs of bridgeport vs. minimill
[16:09:54] <alex_joni> we need one that has it all
[16:10:03] <alex_joni> a super-bridgeport with laser and waterjet
[16:10:07] <rayh> I'll evaluate that after it's been running a mill in production for a while.
[16:10:22] <alex_joni> and the user connects only what he needs
[16:10:37] <alex_joni> I might miss some stuff that the bridgeport controller does...
[16:10:54] <rayh> Just makes it so that you don't need to worry about the polarity of a couple of second parport pins.
[16:11:02] <alex_joni> besides switching the spindle on/off
[16:11:08] <alex_joni> teh coolant, lube, e-stop
[16:11:10] <alex_joni> the
[16:11:27] <rayh> when you run a minimill
[16:12:09] <rayh> The estop circuit has both input and output pins and a logic looks at the relationship and change in relationship
[16:12:25] <rayh> and that logic is hard coded.
[16:12:30] <SWPadnos> (as an aside, xconfig is QT, gconfig is GTK, config is question/answer, and menuconfig is curses)
[16:12:39] <alex_joni> ncurses ;)
[16:12:56] <alex_joni> rayh: don't see any logic there ;)
[16:12:57] <SWPadnos> right - missed the N -ENOCAFFEIENE
[16:13:10] <rayh> So that would work across the whole range of available interfaces.
[16:13:33] <alex_joni> -DNOCAFFEINE to make it work with gcc
[16:13:47] <alex_joni> if external ESTOP .. then EMC stops ;)
[16:13:56] <alex_joni> if EMC-ESTOP then output the pin
[16:14:05] <alex_joni> EMC is already stopped
[16:14:07] <rayh> An estop off without a change in the corresponding estop in pin causes an error message.
[16:14:25] <alex_joni> right
[16:14:30] <rayh> It used to prevent any change in estop but now just reports that the other pin did not change.
[16:14:53] <alex_joni> well you can see it like this: there's the output from emc (estop-out)
[16:14:55] <SWPadnos> is there a configurable timeout? (for the estop pin change detection)
[16:14:59] <alex_joni> and input to it (estop-in)
[16:15:13] <alex_joni> SWP: that's based on the rate the SW runs
[16:15:17] <alex_joni> currently not realtime
[16:15:25] <alex_joni> * alex_joni talks about emc2
[16:15:30] <SWPadnos> Ah - "Variable run timing"
[16:15:45] <alex_joni> rayh: where were I... right
[16:15:57] <alex_joni> estop-in tells emc there's an external estop
[16:16:00] <alex_joni> and halts it
[16:16:10] <alex_joni> estop-out tells that EMC is in estop
[16:16:22] <alex_joni> and when you press estop-reset, estop-out goes out
[16:16:36] <alex_joni> but as long as estop-in is still active.. you're still in estop
[16:16:58] <alex_joni> if it changes, then EMC is not in estop and external ESTOP is disabled.. everything is fine
[16:17:10] <alex_joni> it's actually an OR gate between the two
[16:17:31] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders if websys is around...
[16:17:58] <alex_joni> anybody who cares to try it out.. is welcomed to
[16:17:58] <rayh> There is a similar goofy thing with limits. They turn machine off but not estop.
[16:18:08] <alex_joni> right...
[16:18:21] <alex_joni> the estop stuff I'm talking about is in emc2 - HEAD
[16:18:32] <alex_joni> check it out.. and let me know if it needs changing
[16:29:07] <alex_joni> what if I paint mine pink?
[16:29:11] <anonimasu> haha
[16:29:14] <anonimasu> bummer
[16:29:15] <anonimasu> :D
[16:29:15] <SWPadnos> then you're a girl
[16:29:15] <alex_joni> robin_sz wanted a pink GUI
[16:29:22] <alex_joni> for some clients
[16:29:29] <alex_joni> anyways....
[16:29:33] <alex_joni> I'm going home
[16:29:37] <anonimasu> ok
[16:29:41] <anonimasu> will you be back later?
[16:29:51] <rayh> Did we come to any conclusion about CML or database?
[16:29:55] <anonimasu> that would be a great indication
[16:29:58] <SWPadnos> of course not :)
[16:30:08] <alex_joni> but first I go find some pink paint
[16:30:20] <anonimasu> hehe
[16:30:28] <rayh> You can make tkemc or mini pink by editing TkEmc.
[16:30:43] <SWPadnos> s/Blue/Pink/
[16:31:05] <alex_joni> I want my PC pink first
[16:31:06] <rayh> Yep some blue letters on a pink background.]
[16:31:08] <anonimasu> hm, could you have a SMP/HT machine and separate the GUY from the interpreter?
[16:31:08] <alex_joni> to match the GUI
[16:31:11] <anonimasu> GUI..
[16:31:21] <alex_joni> how about Brown on pink
[16:31:21] <anonimasu> that would work nicely wouldnt it?
[16:31:23] <SWPadnos> No - blue is for GUYs
[16:31:26] <rayh> Need me to send a spray can of paint.
[16:31:26] <alex_joni> that would be disgusting
[16:31:31] <anonimasu> hehe
[16:31:31] <SWPadnos> pink is for GALs
[16:31:31] <alex_joni> lol
[16:31:31] <anonimasu> yeah
[16:31:39] <anonimasu> but I like pink :D
[16:31:49] <SWPadnos> well -that's OK ;)
[16:32:09] <rayh> stopp that you devil you.
[16:32:15] <SWPadnos> find an old Mary Kay car, and build your own case
[16:32:36] <SWPadnos> actually, it would be funny to have a pink Bridgeport
[16:32:53] <anonimasu> rofl
[16:32:54] <SWPadnos> with deep purple on the knee (the color, not the band)
[16:32:57] <Jymmm> and lavender
[16:33:14] <SWPadnos> Hmmm...
[16:33:21] <rayh> I've got an orange one.
[16:33:33] <anonimasu> I think I'll re-paint mine gray someday
[16:33:34] <SWPadnos> cool - I bet that stands out in a crowd :)
[16:33:38] <rayh> Converted moog hydrapoint
[16:33:55] <SWPadnos> ah - did that originate in the Buffalo area?
[16:34:40] <rayh> Had three of em. Yep ny somepace.
[16:34:55] <anonimasu> alex_joni: CML maybe..
[16:34:56] <anonimasu> ;)
[16:34:58] <alex_joni> ok.. now this is something to be logged
[16:35:05] <alex_joni> some orange CML
[16:35:21] <alex_joni> btw.. my robots are orange ;)
[16:35:21] <SWPadnos> Interesting. I got my Bridgeport from Buffalo (next door to Moog), and a friend got a Lathe in Syracuse (same trip)
[16:35:30] <SWPadnos> the Lathe is bright orange, under a coat of gray
[16:35:41] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure it's primer
[16:35:59] <rayh> That sounds like the old sheldon color.
[16:36:15] <SWPadnos> I can't remember what the lathe is (other than HEAVY!)
[16:36:22] <SWPadnos> (more than the brodgeport)
[16:36:26] <anonimasu> I like the color most robots are.. it makes you notice them
[16:36:27] <rayh> Had one of those hydraulic lathes to keep running.
[16:36:41] <alex_joni> an0n: there are gray robots :(
[16:36:44] <SWPadnos> yeah - so you can E-jump when it's swinging at you
[16:36:45] <alex_joni> grey
[16:36:49] <anonimasu> alex_joni: terminators ?
[16:36:52] <anonimasu> ^_^
[16:36:55] <alex_joni> rofl
[16:37:00] <rayh> It whined throug a dozen spindle speeds during self tune every time you started it up.
[16:37:13] <alex_joni> don't think you can jump when a robot is swinging at you
[16:37:27] <anonimasu> I think the robot will hit you before you have time to jump
[16:37:28] <anonimasu> :)
[16:37:30] <alex_joni> the latest I programmed can easily go 4-5m/sec
[16:37:33] <alex_joni> tip speed
[16:37:39] <rayh> Play skip rope with it?
[16:37:39] <SWPadnos> that could hurt
[16:37:42] <SWPadnos> significantly
[16:37:46] <anonimasu> what's the weight of the arm?
[16:37:48] <alex_joni> right ;)
[16:37:56] <alex_joni> it's got 15 kg payload
[16:38:04] <anonimasu> ah yeah but mass..
[16:38:05] <alex_joni> the arm is about 50-100 kg
[16:38:12] <SWPadnos> that's a lotta power
[16:38:13] <alex_joni> maybe a bit less
[16:38:14] <anonimasu> like 70*2^2
[16:38:15] <alex_joni> but enough ;)
[16:38:48] <alex_joni> and it only stopps when the motors ferror
[16:38:50] <alex_joni> ;)
[16:38:50] <anonimasu> 19t on impact..
[16:39:08] <websys> alex - were you looking for me?
[16:39:09] <alex_joni> if it doesn't hit you with the welding gun
[16:39:14] <alex_joni> websys: yes
[16:39:15] <anonimasu> assuming you are moving all the mass..
[16:39:16] <anonimasu> heh
[16:39:33] <anonimasu> alex_joni: I like thoose laser fences..
[16:39:35] <anonimasu> :)
[16:39:37] <SWPadnos> at least it's not a torch :) (longer reach)
[16:39:53] <alex_joni> an0n:I hate those
[16:40:00] <alex_joni> I used to align those ;)
[16:40:05] <anonimasu> alex_joni: haha, they might actually save your life :)
[16:40:10] <anonimasu> lol
[16:40:29] <alex_joni> then a worker comes with a big sheet of metal and hits one...
[16:40:34] <alex_joni> there goes my alignment
[16:40:55] <anonimasu> :p
[16:41:01] <alex_joni> anyways
[16:43:22] <SWPadnos> So - here's the language reference for CML2: http://www.catb.org/~esr/cml2/cml2-reference.html
[16:44:17] <SWPadnos> It looks terrible, but there area mple examples of usage in the kernel source
[16:44:25] <SWPadnos> are ample ...
[16:44:45] <alex_joni> are sample ...
[16:44:49] <alex_joni> lol
[16:44:55] <SWPadnos> there are ample samples
[16:45:06] <SWPadnos> ample sample examples
[16:45:12] <SWPadnos> (said the cat in the hat)
[16:45:33] <SWPadnos> Floats would have to be added
[16:46:38] <SWPadnos> (unless treated as strings, then converted, but that would get away from the validation aspect)
[16:49:27] <rayh> I'm leaning toward a pure database and let it contain the rules and the configurator apply the rules and write the INI.
[16:50:01] <SWPadnos> I'm not a database guy - could you explain how that would work?
[16:51:15] <rayh> Think of a stack of papers.
[16:51:33] <rayh> Each paper has a heading, like UNITS
[16:52:16] <rayh> The rest of the paper has possible settings, help, interactions with other pages.
[16:52:21] <SWPadnos> (sorry to interrupt - are you thinking that the "master" table has the settings by name, and the child has the possibilities?)
[16:52:42] <SWPadnos> children, I suppose
[16:53:07] <rayh> Could be. There would be many ways to set it up.
[16:53:21] <rayh> You could even think of it as a spreadsheet.
[16:53:35] <rayh> Every col is a INI var
[16:53:36] <SWPadnos> I hate thinking of databasse as spreadsheets :)
[16:53:52] <rayh> row one is the default value
[16:54:00] <SWPadnos> (I prefer Paradox to Excel)
[16:54:08] <rayh> I'm just trying to think about how to visualize it.
[16:54:15] <SWPadnos> OK - sorry
[16:55:03] <rayh> If we think of a spreadsheet of some sort we can write rules and put into
[16:55:14] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure how you would encode exclusivity and/or requirements
[16:55:25] <alex_joni> aarghh
[16:55:33] <alex_joni> talking about paradox and excel now?
[16:55:39] <SWPadnos> no - that's my fault :)
[16:55:43] <alex_joni> ;)
[16:56:03] <rayh> a page behind the first. deadband=1/input-scale*.55
[16:56:35] <SWPadnos> I'm thinking more like "you can't select the same pin for 2 different functions"
[16:56:47] <SWPadnos> and "you have to have a pin for this function"
[16:56:47] <rayh> or another page could sort on if then not
[16:57:15] <rayh> Those would all be rules that would be applied by the configuration program.
[16:57:45] <rayh> That makes the config program more complex that a markup example but the master is simpler.
[16:58:35] <rayh> If we were working on a servo example and answered motenc to the board question...
[16:58:59] <rayh> We would find all of the spare io pins
[16:59:26] <rayh> under boards, motenc, io
[17:00:11] <rayh> If this is a database, we could also ask interesting questions like which board has the most...
[17:00:34] <rayh> We could even store comments from users.
[17:01:16] <rayh> If it was a database, I'd like to see web access and browser tools so any user could
[17:01:39] <rayh> access the same master file and write their own ini wherever they were.
[17:02:14] <rayh> press the print to file or save to file when the final page comes up and it's done.
[17:02:57] <alex_joni> rayh: how about php for the configurator?
[17:03:50] <rayh> I don't know it but that is a good web language.
[17:04:39] <rayh> robin has an instance of mysql on line.
[17:04:53] <SWPadnos> look at this: http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?KBuildConfig
[17:05:09] <SWPadnos> I should have called it "KBuild-LikeConfig"
[17:05:48] <SWPadnos> of course, it's basically XML without the angle brackets :)
[17:06:46] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: No, that's python syntax
[17:06:54] <SWPadnos> heh - whichever
[17:06:55] <rayh> So the level is done with intenting
[17:07:06] <rayh> indent
[17:07:20] <SWPadnos> It could be - I wasn't specifically thinking that
[17:07:31] <rayh> or ENDS
[17:07:41] <SWPadnos> right - that was the reason for xxx ENDS
[17:08:00] <rayh> And we would write our own parser
[17:08:09] <rayh> or can kbuild do that for us.
[17:08:10] <SWPadnos> yeah
[17:08:27] <alex_joni> right... bye guys
[17:08:29] <SWPadnos> A KBuild-like configurator would be good
[17:08:29] <alex_joni> keep it up
[17:08:32] <alex_joni> I'll check later
[17:08:39] <alex_joni> to see how busy you've been ;)
[17:08:46] <SWPadnos> (I like to be able to click on little plus signs to descend the hierarchy)
[17:08:58] <SWPadnos> alex_joni: thanks :)
[17:09:05] <alex_joni> lol
[17:09:07] <alex_joni> ciao
[17:10:27] <SWPadnos> That was sort of freeform thinking, somewhat based on http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EmcConfig
[17:10:39] <SWPadnos> which is a bit XML-ish (or HTML)
[17:11:10] <rayh> would you put a + in front of each?
[17:11:33] <SWPadnos> That's just the browser - the standard treeview control
[17:11:41] <Jymmm> rayh: he means like expanding a folder
[17:11:48] <Jymmm> rayh it's a GUI thing
[17:11:49] <SWPadnos> Actually, HTML forms might not be a bad thing.
[17:11:50] <rayh> okay
[17:12:03] <SWPadnos> you can have radio buttons, text fields, sliders, etc.
[17:12:16] <Jymmm> ew
[17:12:22] <SWPadnos> the user can't do anything you don't explicitly allow
[17:12:27] <Jymmm> let me say that again... Essssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
[17:12:31] <rayh> I've not done much of that in html. Lots in tk
[17:12:32] <Jymmm> let me say that again... Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
[17:12:49] <Jymmm> KISS
[17:12:52] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: you just don't like anything with <> signs :)
[17:13:06] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Actually I don't like SGML
[17:13:15] <SWPadnos> Let's UML that, then
[17:13:28] <Jymmm> uml?
[17:13:44] <SWPadnos> think SGML, but even better :)
[17:13:51] <rayh> Almost sounds like we are back to the old parser I put in emcconf.
[17:13:56] <Jymmm> Yeah, it's called PostScript
[17:14:05] <Jymmm> or HPGL
[17:14:11] <SWPadnos> http://www.uml.org/
[17:14:12] <Jymmm> HPPCL I mean
[17:15:18] <rayh> Seems to me that all of the xxl's are just arguing of allowed and disallowed things between markups.
[17:16:22] <rayh> Something like, "What are the possible values for the AXIS UNITS variable" is closer to my needs.
[17:17:12] <rayh> And a second question, "What other variables does MM as units affect?"
[17:17:24] <SWPadnos> yes - then you have the "if I do this, I must do that as well, but I can no longer do the other thing"
[17:17:25] <rayh> And this seems a lot closer to DB that markup.
[17:17:55] <SWPadnos> Almost every value can be calculated once you have the LINEAR_UNITS and encoder counts/steps per inch
[17:17:56] <Jymmm> why isn't [blah] axis_x.limit.low:20\n axis_x.limit.hi:40\n acceptable?
[17:17:57] <rayh> than
[17:18:20] <rayh> works for me cause I can querry it in plain language.
[17:18:52] <rayh> It is markup though.
[17:18:52] <SWPadnos> There are (at least) two different problems here
[17:19:08] <SWPadnos> first is "what part of the machine is connected to which piece of my hardware?
[17:19:23] <Jymmm> thats what a map is for
[17:19:25] <SWPadnos> (so what driver variable or whatever corresponds to a machine function)
[17:19:55] <rayh> Yes and we do NOT have any of that info in the current ini file.
[17:19:58] <SWPadnos> The second is "how do I get '1' on the display or in G-code to actually cause '1' movement on the machine"
[17:20:07] <rayh> That is one of the reasons for a "master" config system.
[17:20:26] <Jymmm> why not building blocks?
[17:20:31] <Jymmm> like legos
[17:20:47] <Jymmm> if you change one item, you replace that block
[17:21:04] <SWPadnos> because Legos have no idea if another block is compatible or not.
[17:21:05] <rayh> with rules like I need four red double row blocks.
[17:21:30] <Jymmm> then define it it the sytax I just gave....
[17:21:53] <Jymmm> [blah] axis_x.limit.low:20\n axis_x.limit.hi:40\n requires.machine:blue\n
[17:22:22] <SWPadnos> your example doesn't give the relationship between x.axis.low and x.axis.high (ie, that low must be below high)
[17:22:37] <Jymmm> it doesn't ahve to be
[17:22:43] <SWPadnos> no?
[17:22:44] <Jymmm> it's dot syntax
[17:22:55] <rayh> I'd turn that over, machine is servo\stepper\mixed.
[17:23:14] <rayh> and get the relevant questions from the choice there.
[17:23:21] <SWPadnos> well - dots or indentation or <section> - it's just a hierarchy of data and options
[17:23:37] <Jymmm> SWPadnos nope, dotted syntax is very easy to work with
[17:23:52] <rayh> Yes it is and a single markup file is much easier to distribute that a database.
[17:23:56] <SWPadnos> so is <this><subsection></subsection></this>
[17:23:57] <Jymmm> explode on nl's then explode on .
[17:24:18] <rayh> A database would be much easier on line.
[17:24:23] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: nope, that has to be parsed out by matching <> pairs
[17:24:32] <SWPadnos> true enough
[17:24:48] <Jymmm> SWPadnos what happens when this occures: <this><subsection></subsection>/this>
[17:25:24] <SWPadnos> what happens with X_axis.low\nXAxis.high\n
[17:25:38] <rayh> In most of the scripting languages spaces are just about as easy to use.
[17:25:48] <SWPadnos> You can't be sure that the preamble will be correctly typed on every line
[17:26:18] <SWPadnos> or a missing colon for that matter
[17:26:53] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: It's MUCH easier to check for that than match pairs
[17:27:15] <Jymmm> as there would be no device low20
[17:27:39] <SWPadnos> How does the parser know that Low20 isn't a valid variable name?
[17:27:45] <Jymmm> but anyhow, that's just syntaic sugar
[17:28:08] <rayh> i'd go for low=20
[17:28:35] <Jymmm> rayh: I wouldn't use math symbols in the structure
[17:28:56] <Jymmm> rayh: you might want to say low: pi*2 one day
[17:29:02] <rayh> I would cause it is much more descriptive of wht is going to happen when you drag this thing into your config script
[17:30:16] <rayh> It seems to me that it is also more man readable if the relationships are math.
[17:30:18] <SWPadnos> actually, math symbols could be used for formulas (like Jymmm said) - x.axis.outputscale=x.axis.inputscale/machine.units
[17:31:09] <SWPadnos> that would signal a machine-derived value, vs. a user-specified one
[17:31:15] <Jymmm> rayh: btw... blah.foor:bar has been used for over 30+ years in good old fashion email headers (the : part)
[17:31:23] <SWPadnos> (config-script defined, I mean)
[17:32:02] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I tend to use underscore for spaces instead oh dash so it's not confused with minus
[17:32:22] <SWPadnos> good plan
[17:32:38] <Jymmm> and NO SPACES in device names
[17:33:04] <Jymmm> that will save a world of hurt in the long run
[17:33:09] <rayh> So how would we represent NEGITIVE_LIMIT = -10
[17:33:28] <SWPadnos> x.axis.negative_limit: -10
[17:33:29] <Jymmm> axis_x.NEGITIVE_LIMIT:-10
[17:33:47] <SWPadnos> (as part of the value after the colon, the unary minus must be valid)
[17:34:03] <rayh> But you are doing something differnt with mathematical operators
[17:34:28] <SWPadnos> if it said x.axis.negative_limit=-10, then it would be inserted by the configuration program, and not presented to the user
[17:34:36] <rayh> I'd prefer to keep formula marked as formula.
[17:34:54] <Jymmm> axis_x.NEGITIVE_LIMIT.eq:-10
[17:35:21] <Jymmm> I suspect you could do something like that
[17:35:51] <rayh> kiss NEGITIVE_LIMIT = -10
[17:35:51] <Jymmm> but in programming = and == have two different meanings
[17:36:04] <Jymmm> rayh: again, no math symbols
[17:36:48] <rayh> But we are not programming we are storing data.
[17:37:14] <rayh> to be used by a program.
[17:37:28] <Jymmm> rayh: if you are going to go thru all the trouble to define a new syntax, dont limit yourself to thhe here and now.
[17:37:54] <Jymmm> Like I said, what i described has been tried and tested for over 30+ years
[17:38:12] <Jymmm> tools already exist to break it down
[17:39:05] <rayh> Longevity can be considered a measure of value. I've got a ford t but I don't run it on the autobahn.
[17:39:33] <Jymmm> ok
[17:40:04] <rayh> Cobol's data struct is awesome when it is used properly.
[17:40:22] <Jymmm> yeah right.... thus Y2K
[17:40:24] <rayh> I guess it's just a matter of making a decision that works.
[17:40:33] <rayh> Yep.
[17:40:50] <Jymmm> screw cobol
[17:41:15] <rayh> Someone told me yesterday that they were still writing and maintaining a system.
[17:41:22] <rayh> But I wouldn't want to.
[17:41:23] <Jymmm> sick bastards
[17:41:54] <rayh> $85 an hour 10 hr's week.
[17:42:20] <Jymmm> eh, ok
[17:42:35] <rayh> I'd have to thrash some living thing after that much cobol.
[17:42:36] <Jymmm> I'd turn it into a giant PONG game
[17:42:46] <rayh> There you go.
[17:43:00] <rayh> EMC-PONG
[17:43:05] <Jymmm> lol
[17:44:00] <rayh> I do favor using some system that has existing parsers and aids rather than having to write all our own.
[17:44:44] <Jymmm> axis_x.limit.lo: floor(23.5)\n
[17:45:17] <rayh> Although we could write data entry front ends that are plain text and they save the actual data.
[17:45:53] <rayh> If I read that as a string in tickle the \n is a newline.
[17:46:00] <rayh> Is that what you mean by it.
[17:46:06] <Jymmm> correct
[17:46:18] <Jymmm> instead of flooding the channel
[17:47:08] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos hates phones
[17:47:23] <rayh> We would then have some key words at the start of each line.
[17:47:32] <rayh> that we parse for.
[17:49:08] <rayh> I imagine the master file having only one axis section
[17:49:25] <rayh> It is looped for the number of axes that the machine has.
[17:50:13] <anonimasu> hm..
[17:51:02] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs deeply
[17:51:19] <rayh> so something like axis_low:(float)\n axis_high:(float)\n
[17:53:10] <rayh> * rayh needs to go work on a sawmill that broke.
[17:53:24] <rayh> catch you all later.
[17:58:47] <Jymmm> ooops, he left too quick
[17:59:50] <Jymmm> was gonna say... myalias=[deviceA],[deviceB],etc
[19:54:01] <anonimasu> wb alex
[19:54:14] <alex_joni> hello
[19:54:18] <alex_joni> what did I miss?
[19:55:14] <alex_joni> websys: still around?
[19:55:39] <anonimasu> oh not much
[19:56:01] <SWPadnos> just lots of discussion about which hierarchical text format is best for EMC configuration
[19:56:14] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:56:18] <alex_joni> any conclusions?
[19:56:19] <SWPadnos> I added a little to this page: http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?KBuildConfig
[19:56:22] <anonimasu> nope
[19:56:31] <anonimasu> * anonimasu still is into the xml-ish train of thought
[19:56:31] <SWPadnos> no conclusions, except that everyone disagrees :)
[19:56:46] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:57:12] <anonimasu> I think we need to keep it simple, a bit..
[19:57:20] <SWPadnos> impossible :)
[19:57:25] <Imperator_> Hi all
[19:57:30] <SWPadnos> hi
[19:57:34] <anonimasu> nah, the discussions are all running away too far with theoretical things..
[19:58:08] <alex_joni> SWP: lol
[19:58:11] <SWPadnos> Can someone briefly explain what the differences are between bridgeportio and minimillio?
[19:58:19] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: designing the format away from being human readable because of all the features
[19:58:22] <alex_joni> I think the version that will be implemented, gets accepted in the end
[19:58:24] <Jymmm> 7 characters
[19:58:30] <SWPadnos> (I don't quite understand why they need to be different)
[19:58:32] <Imperator_> don't know what is the advantage of a XML based config file ???
[19:58:52] <anonimasu> Imperator_: xml based config file master or somthing like that..
[19:59:00] <SWPadnos> validation of configs
[19:59:05] <SWPadnos> options passed to configuratoe
[19:59:10] <SWPadnos> configurator
[19:59:15] <SWPadnos> etc.
[19:59:18] <anonimasu> Imperator_: that tells the configuration utility what variables and what limits they have
[19:59:23] <anonimasu> for generating the actual config file
[20:00:04] <anonimasu> which can be of a entirely different syntax/format/*
[20:00:16] <alex_joni> I like the EMC-PONG ideea though
[20:00:19] <SWPadnos> anonimasu: ad far as human readability - we have that now.
[20:00:20] <Imperator_> but if the configurator writes a normal config file we save one step
[20:00:31] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: yeah but with calcs inside the config.
[20:00:38] <Jymmm> alex_joni: thank you =)
[20:00:58] <websys> alex - I'm here now
[20:01:00] <SWPadnos> right - hence the need/desire to tell the machine (config program) how things relate
[20:01:10] <SWPadnos> that's one step removed from human readability already.
[20:01:29] <SWPadnos> (may still be readable, but needs to be more complex than the config)
[20:01:37] <anonimasu> yeah but that could be implemented in the data definition
[20:01:49] <Jymmm> is the channel logged somewhere? If so, y'all should scrollback to look at my $0.02
[20:02:07] <alex_joni> logger_aj, bookmark
[20:02:07] <alex_joni> See
[20:02:15] <anonimasu> <axis><module>io</module><description></description></axis>
[20:02:58] <alex_joni> Imperator_: the configurator would need to save/read more than one file
[20:03:02] <alex_joni> for emc2 at least
[20:03:10] <alex_joni> it would read/write emc.ini
[20:03:14] <anonimasu> yeah, defining what goes where in the data definition aswell..
[20:03:16] <alex_joni> then the hal files
[20:03:31] <alex_joni> right
[20:03:33] <anonimasu> <file>emc.ini</file>
[20:03:42] <anonimasu> and maybe a priority flag to tell it what goes first into the file..
[20:03:49] <anonimasu> or in what order..
[20:03:56] <anonimasu> but well, a good parser shouldnt really care..
[20:05:52] <alex_joni> I agree
[20:05:55] <alex_joni> let's summarize
[20:06:05] <alex_joni> 1. configurator needs to be easy to use
[20:06:29] <anonimasu> ayeah
[20:06:43] <anonimasu> err Yes.
[20:06:53] <alex_joni> 2. configurator needs only to parse a file (shouldn't have stuff hardcoded)
[20:06:57] <alex_joni> to keep it flexible
[20:07:23] <anonimasu> to allow users of modules to add their own things into the config very easily to make it easier for the end user
[20:07:31] <Imperator_> the problem i see is, that most users of emc have limited or no programming skills. So we need to keep emc simple, so that also people with only C knowledge but with good idears can also do something. The best example is NML. Only real software people understand it
[20:08:06] <SWPadnos> this isn't for end users to see - it's behind the scenes for a simple to use configuration program
[20:08:08] <alex_joni> Imperator_: right.. I agree, but that's a different topic
[20:08:23] <alex_joni> SWP: it must be easy to maintain too
[20:08:39] <SWPadnos> it would need to be understandable by hardware driver writers as well
[20:08:49] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: yeah, but the thing is that if it's a hassle to add it to the configuration it wont be there...
[20:09:07] <alex_joni> 3. the master file (that gets parsed by the configurator) needs to be text-mode (i.e. human editable)
[20:09:17] <SWPadnos> rihgt - it can be rigorous (for a developer), but easy to understand.
[20:09:19] <SWPadnos> like C
[20:09:26] <SWPadnos> (sort of)
[20:09:32] <Imperator_> I see no different if the configurator reads the two config files and is editing this files. We dont need a third file.
[20:09:54] <anonimasu> Imperator_: what?
[20:10:05] <SWPadnos> one file tells the configurator what the possible configurations are, and how to check for conflicts.
[20:10:08] <Imperator_> a extra XML file for example
[20:10:29] <anonimasu> Imperator_: how are you going to get the configurator to understand the config file syntax?
[20:10:36] <SWPadnos> the configurator then presents an esy to use interface to the user, who can select options
[20:10:36] <anonimasu> Imperator_: hardcoding it isnt a option
[20:10:45] <SWPadnos> it then outputs a sane config file
[20:10:59] <SWPadnos> (emc.ini)
[20:11:01] <Imperator_> hm, ok
[20:11:19] <anonimasu> Imperator_: it's just to keep the configuration for the user simple and adding aditional things to the configuration easy..
[20:11:21] <SWPadnos> think about kbuild and make xconfig for the kernel
[20:11:43] <SWPadnos> all you see as a user is a nice pretty menu with all the options available
[20:11:52] <SWPadnos> you don't have to look at the KBuild rule files
[20:12:04] <SWPadnos> and you never have to look at a makefile either
[20:12:11] <SWPadnos> all you see is the pretty menu of your choice
[20:12:18] <alex_joni> SWP: dream on ;=)
[20:12:28] <SWPadnos> yes - dreaming
[20:12:36] <anonimasu> you just add your data into the definition and tell the configurator what you can do with it..
[20:12:38] <Imperator_> :-)
[20:13:02] <SWPadnos> but that functionality is there already, and with some work, it might be extensible to do what's neceessary here
[20:13:05] <anonimasu> and it will show up in the tree like config.. or somthing like that..
[20:13:38] <SWPadnos> for a much smaller example, look at RTAI configuration - make xconfig in the RTAI directory, and see what comes up
[20:14:00] <SWPadnos> (smaller than the kernel)
[20:14:15] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is dreaming right now
[20:16:05] <anonimasu> hehe
[20:16:47] <anonimasu> actually I think writing the utility to parse thoose values would be easy...
[20:17:01] <anonimasu> err the XML-ish data definition..
[20:17:19] <alex_joni> an0n: short question
[20:17:26] <alex_joni> can you read norwegian?
[20:17:46] <alex_joni> err.. norsk
[20:18:04] <anonimasu> yes
[20:18:21] <alex_joni> cool... I might have to ask you some stuff in the future
[20:18:26] <anonimasu> np :)
[20:18:47] <alex_joni> great
[20:19:02] <anonimasu> I used to have loads of friends in norway before so I am pretty ok at it
[20:19:07] <alex_joni> I have to patch up pieces of an old ASEA robot ;)
[20:19:11] <anonimasu> oh cool
[20:19:22] <alex_joni> from before they became ABB ;)
[20:20:14] <anonimasu> :)
[20:20:47] <anonimasu> damn I desperately need a robot..
[20:21:00] <alex_joni> what for?
[20:21:16] <anonimasu> toolchaning at the mill in the future
[20:21:33] <anonimasu> :D
[20:21:39] <alex_joni> you don't need a robot for that
[20:21:43] <anonimasu> and playing around with..
[20:21:58] <anonimasu> workpiece changing and toolchanging...
[20:22:39] <anonimasu> I think I need to cad and build a small one..
[20:23:23] <alex_joni> right ;)
[20:23:28] <alex_joni> get a puma off ebay
[20:23:34] <alex_joni> that's cheap
[20:23:38] <alex_joni> and you can emc one ;)
[20:23:40] <anonimasu> what do they cost?
[20:23:54] <anonimasu> I'd use a plc for positioning and just give it XYZ commands..
[20:23:58] <anonimasu> :)
[20:25:03] <anonimasu> 1500$ isnt cheap ;)
[20:25:15] <anonimasu> well maybe..
[20:25:16] <alex_joni> not much either
[20:25:33] <anonimasu> but I could machine and build one for less..
[20:25:40] <alex_joni> you could?
[20:25:52] <alex_joni> how about motors/encoders?
[20:26:12] <anonimasu> ebay..
[20:26:20] <alex_joni> did you find any puma on ebay?
[20:26:22] <anonimasu> although shipping would set me back..
[20:26:44] <anonimasu> but what I need are like 1m of reach and 5kg payload..
[20:26:49] <SWPadnos> unless you have BLDC drives, you won't find too many good motors on ebay (steppers maybe, servos no)
[20:26:59] <anonimasu> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50924&item=3874044068&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V
[20:27:02] <anonimasu> BLDC?
[20:27:12] <SWPadnos> BrushLess DC
[20:27:26] <anonimasu> I can buy thoose on ebay too..
[20:27:48] <SWPadnos> yes - the motors are pretty easy to come by, but the drivers are generally expensive
[20:28:13] <SWPadnos> brush motors, that you can use an inexpensive drive for (like a Gecko or Rutex) are more expensive
[20:28:19] <anonimasu> could you get away with using steppers on a robot?
[20:28:30] <anonimasu> possibly steppers + encoders..
[20:28:40] <SWPadnos> steppers are pretty available in various sizes, but most of the larger ones are pretty expensivestill
[20:29:01] <SWPadnos> you won't find a stepper/encoder drive system for a while (at least, not at a reasonable price)
[20:29:33] <anonimasu> plc..
[20:29:34] <alex_joni> you could probably get away only with steppers
[20:29:34] <anonimasu> :)
[20:29:40] <alex_joni> for a homeuse
[20:29:42] <anonimasu> or some AVR programming..
[20:29:43] <alex_joni> ;)
[20:29:55] <anonimasu> err plc + avr programming for the counter logic..,
[20:29:56] <SWPadnos> Ah - AVR == easy :)
[20:30:02] <alex_joni> right
[20:30:11] <alex_joni> or an emc (you got kinematics too)
[20:30:37] <alex_joni> so you could move X,Y,Z...
[20:30:40] <anonimasu> yep
[20:30:50] <anonimasu> dosent matter really
[20:31:11] <alex_joni> darn... my eyes hurt again
[20:31:16] <anonimasu> why?
[20:31:45] <anonimasu> emc would be perfect for it..
[20:32:19] <alex_joni> you could use some LS7166 ;)
[20:32:25] <alex_joni> for the counting
[20:32:51] <anonimasu> yeah and a avr and then to the plc via can..
[20:33:51] <anonimasu> and to emc via rs232
[20:34:45] <alex_joni> go wireless :))
[20:34:53] <alex_joni> or optical
[20:35:01] <alex_joni> there are optical rs232 converters
[20:35:02] <alex_joni> ;)
[20:35:02] <anonimasu> yeah..
[20:35:25] <anonimasu> I could probably get a fibre optic module for the plc ;)
[20:35:58] <alex_joni> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=87079&item=3875758975&rd=1
[20:35:59] <anonimasu> the plc's I am waiting for are built for mounting on robots..
[20:36:17] <anonimasu> neat!
[20:36:25] <anonimasu> I am in love :)
[20:36:39] <anonimasu> but that thing costs more then my future car..
[20:36:46] <alex_joni> right
[20:36:48] <anonimasu> the size is right..
[20:36:51] <les> hello
[20:37:03] <alex_joni> hey les
[20:37:24] <anonimasu> hi les
[20:37:30] <alex_joni> les: can you chat a bit with websys?
[20:37:45] <alex_joni> he wrote synergy, and an emc postprocessor
[20:38:10] <alex_joni> and he was wondering about usual emc-users-habits
[20:39:33] <anonimasu> alex_joni: the budget would be tough.. it'd take 4 servos for a robot..
[20:39:49] <anonimasu> 5 maybe..
[20:40:14] <alex_joni> depends on what you want
[20:40:31] <anonimasu> dead on precision *grins*
[20:40:44] <alex_joni> an0n: you know AIBO?
[20:40:47] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:41:04] <alex_joni> it's got more than 20 servos iirc
[20:41:10] <anonimasu> argh
[20:41:17] <anonimasu> but they are very expensive
[20:42:06] <anonimasu> about $1000
[20:42:33] <alex_joni> errr...not aibo
[20:42:43] <alex_joni> I didn't mean the dog.. but the dude ;)
[20:42:48] <anonimasu> ah haha
[20:42:51] <alex_joni> asimo?
[20:42:53] <anonimasu> aibo..
[20:43:01] <anonimasu> it means "friend" in japanese :)
[20:43:05] <alex_joni> something with a...o
[20:43:15] <anonimasu> oh.. ok
[20:43:23] <alex_joni> astupido
[20:43:29] <anonimasu> I know about a robot called asimo.. ;)
[20:43:44] <alex_joni> honda made it
[20:43:47] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:44:24] <anonimasu> it's neat
[20:44:57] <alex_joni> an0n: 26 servos on asimo ;)
[20:45:01] <anonimasu> haha
[20:45:15] <anonimasu> but asimo is a prototype isnt it?
[20:45:33] <anonimasu> priceless :
[20:45:34] <anonimasu> :)
[20:45:35] <anonimasu> hehe
[20:45:36] <alex_joni> well... dunno ;)
[20:45:58] <picnet> Nanomolecular whotsits.
[20:46:22] <anonimasu> * anonimasu neither
[20:46:40] <anonimasu> http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/next-generation/index.html
[20:47:28] <picnet> honda still trying to convince the world that the army of controlling guys behind the curtain are there drinking coffee?
[20:47:36] <anonimasu> what a shame that they dont state a retail $
[20:48:15] <anonimasu> *grins*
[20:48:22] <anonimasu> picnet: hehe
[20:48:32] <picnet> strap a <insert male part> join on that and the high proportion of japanese singles would buy that thing by the lorry load.
[20:48:37] <picnet> joint.
[20:48:51] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:49:01] <picnet> but lets not go any further with that discussion, paul just got back.
[20:49:09] <picnet> * picnet looks around.
[20:49:15] <anonimasu> * anonimasu hides
[20:49:24] <paul_c> * paul_c is back
[20:49:31] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hides
[20:49:38] <picnet> Im in blightly tomorrow
[20:50:22] <alex_joni> paul_c: missed some nice stuff today
[20:50:51] <paul_c> Did I ?
[20:51:00] <alex_joni> xml, uml, css, dtd, kbuild
[20:51:03] <alex_joni> shall I go on?
[20:51:15] <picnet> wsi wdsl?
[20:51:17] <paul_c> for emc2 ?
[20:51:20] <alex_joni> ahh.. cobol, python, tcl,
[20:51:22] <alex_joni> cml2
[20:51:39] <alex_joni> for an "easy" configurator
[20:52:00] <alex_joni> the cml2 version would even generate Makefiles based on the user config ...
[20:56:59] <anonimasu> :)
[20:57:49] <alex_joni> it must have taken paul_c's breath away .. ;)
[20:57:57] <SWPadnos> The discussion today was quite buzzword-compliant
[20:58:29] <SWPadnos> I made a Wiki page you'll hate at http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?KBuildConfig
[20:58:35] <SWPadnos> (probably misnamed though)
[21:01:29] <SWPadnos> paul_c: what are the diffferences between a minimill and a bridgeport that require the drivers to be different?
[21:01:37] <SWPadnos> (minimillio vs. bridgeportio)
[21:01:45] <alex_joni> SWP: the bridgeport uses 2 parports
[21:02:05] <SWPadnos> OK - why?
[21:02:08] <alex_joni> the second parport is done for lube, coolant, estop, etc
[21:02:14] <paul_c> minimillio stub most of the M function calls, bridgeportio pass them to the 2nd parport.
[21:02:17] <alex_joni> the minimill doesn't have those signals
[21:02:23] <SWPadnos> OK - things that are less likely to exist on a small mill
[21:02:34] <alex_joni> that's why it's called minimill
[21:03:01] <SWPadnos> (well- you *could* have cooling on a minimill :) )
[21:03:10] <alex_joni> paul_c: jokes aside now, how do you feel about a configurator?
[21:03:23] <paul_c> To be honest, I fail to see why there needs to be two task & two io controls...
[21:03:25] <alex_joni> SWP: in emc2 you'll have all those as hal-pins
[21:03:33] <alex_joni> and you connect which one you need
[21:03:38] <paul_c> the code is pretty much the same in both.
[21:03:39] <SWPadnos> rihgt - I think more like HAL than separate drivers
[21:04:01] <paul_c> alex_joni: Save HAL discussions for Sunday.
[21:04:08] <alex_joni> there are some things about HAL that needs to get improved .. though
[21:04:20] <paul_c> \some\a lot\
[21:04:40] <SWPadnos> like "make it work for something other than a parallel port" :)
[21:06:00] <alex_joni> we should start a list
[21:06:10] <alex_joni> wish/sh&t - list ;)
[21:06:18] <alex_joni> for emc, emc2, hal
[21:06:31] <alex_joni> stuff that could/should get addressed at the fest
[21:08:35] <SWPadnos> I agree - maybe a wiki page would be appropriate :)
[21:08:51] <alex_joni> yup
[21:10:12] <SWPadnos> I was thinking it would also be a good thing to list other resources for fest
[21:10:23] <SWPadnos> like test equipment that may be needed / provided
[21:10:37] <alex_joni> I think that's addressed already
[21:10:45] <SWPadnos> travel related stuff like who's gonig to have a car, and who needs rides from what hotel, etc.
[21:11:16] <SWPadnos> I think Fred said that there would be scopes / meters, etc.
[21:11:35] <SWPadnos> and a small machine in the room, plus a Bridgeport on the floor
[21:12:00] <SWPadnos> I wonder if we'll be able to network the floor machine into the EMCNet
[21:12:18] <anonimasu> EMCNet?
[21:12:47] <SWPadnos> there's going to be internet access to the computers people bring, but on a separate net from the internal NIST stuff
[21:12:49] <alex_joni> visitors net at Nist
[21:13:32] <anonimasu> ah ok
[21:16:42] <paul_c> Imperator_: Have you decided on going to the fest & dates ?
[21:17:16] <Imperator_> good question Paul
[21:17:35] <Imperator_> I still havend decided
[21:18:04] <Imperator_> why are you asking ?
[21:18:15] <SWPadnos> carpool? :)
[21:18:52] <Imperator_> with the car I will get a problem
[21:19:25] <SWPadnos> Imperator_: you're in Germany. right?
[21:19:33] <Imperator_> jep
[21:19:44] <SWPadnos> I thought so (t-dialup is a great clue :) )
[21:19:57] <paul_c> Imperator_: I was going to wait and see what dates you were planning on before booking my flight.
[21:21:24] <anonimasu> :)
[21:22:43] <anonimasu> hm I wonder if 3 minutes per part is a good speed ;)
[21:23:04] <SWPadnos> not for 1mm parts, but for 3 foot parts, yes, definitely :)
[21:23:15] <anonimasu> lol
[21:23:19] <anonimasu> it's 7x7cm
[21:24:00] <alex_joni> paul_c: bdi218 is officially outdated?
[21:24:03] <anonimasu> with a round hole in the center :)
[21:24:05] <alex_joni> and not to be used anymore?
[21:26:00] <paul_c> BDI-2.18 is out of date - There is a BDI-2.20b release somewhere...
[21:26:13] <alex_joni> not at sherlines
[21:30:34] <alex_joni> found it at yty.net
[21:30:42] <alex_joni> pretty good download rate too
[21:30:53] <alex_joni> 700 kB/s
[21:30:56] <anonimasu> nice
[21:30:58] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_eating
[21:31:06] <anonimasu> I am running this program dry to see if it craps now
[21:32:33] <anonimasu> :)
[21:33:12] <paul_c> hmmm... delete samba-doc - Free up 11Meg
[21:33:18] <anonimasu> yep
[21:33:39] <anonimasu> who here did I promise to help with samba?
[21:33:56] <alex_joni> paul_c: do you remember how new 2.20 is?
[21:34:01] <alex_joni> I mean the sources
[21:35:01] <alex_joni> doesn't need to be an exact date
[21:35:04] <alex_joni> year is ok
[21:35:28] <paul_c> 'bout a year old.
[21:35:35] <alex_joni> right
[21:36:03] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is updating http://dsplabs.utt.ro/~juve/emc/
[21:41:43] <anonimasu> hm maybe I should try milling this part..
[21:42:13] <anonimasu> sitting here being anxious about it dosent help
[21:43:01] <anonimasu> I'll mill it in foam.. so I dont have to fear for my life if it craps..
[21:45:28] <alex_joni> paul_c: how does the mirror thing look?
[21:46:22] <acemi> i want to install emc in my debian installed machine using the repository http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bdi-emc/debian/, but I must use kernel.2.4.27. And in this repository, there is no rtai-modules for kernel 2.4.27. Will this cause problem?
[21:46:50] <alex_joni> acemi: apt-get install emc should get an rtai-patched 2.6 kernel
[21:47:09] <acemi> but i can't use kernel 2.6.9
[21:47:12] <paul_c> no rtai modules package for 2.4.27
[21:47:17] <alex_joni> if you MUST use 2.4.27 then you should get the sources from CVS
[21:47:21] <alex_joni> to compile emc
[21:47:30] <paul_c> Why can't you use 2.6 ?
[21:47:40] <alex_joni> for RTAI you'll have to manually patch the kernel, and install RTAI
[21:48:04] <acemi> my machine can't boot with this kernel, i don't understand the reason
[21:48:20] <alex_joni> normal machine?
[21:48:49] <acemi> normal machine but all card are onboard
[21:48:59] <alex_joni> should work
[21:49:05] <alex_joni> any error messages?
[21:49:14] <paul_c> Try the latest BDI-4 - The kernel has been recompiled for a regular i586
[21:49:32] <paul_c> (haven't had time to update the repository yet.)
[21:50:04] <alex_joni> you might want to try kernel options at boot time (-noacpi, -noapic, -noapm)
[21:51:05] <acemi> alex_joni: I'll try to use kernel 2.6 later but for now, i want to try emc immediately
[21:51:21] <acemi> i used live CD
[21:51:45] <alex_joni> right
[21:51:55] <alex_joni> and live works ok?
[21:52:02] <acemi> yes, perfect
[21:52:18] <alex_joni> install that one ;)
[21:52:44] <acemi> but I don't want to format my debian
[21:53:06] <paul_c> download BDI-4.16
[21:53:11] <paul_c> burn the CD
[21:53:20] <paul_c> apt-cdrom add
[21:53:30] <paul_c> apt-get upgrade
[21:53:39] <paul_c> or: apt-get install
[21:55:23] <acemi> hmm... maybe it'll be nice if I use a new harddisk for emc
[22:02:38] <anonimasu> hello
[22:02:44] <anonimasu> want to see my first emc made part?
[22:03:04] <alex_joni> sure
[22:03:24] <websys> actually would like to see the gcode that made it ;)
[22:03:40] <websys> at least the first few lines
[22:04:31] <anonimasu> since this isnt the final part I can give you it :)
[22:04:48] <websys> email it?
[22:05:28] <anonimasu> wait..
[22:06:10] <anonimasu> www.bojn.net/~an0n/testpart323.cnc
[22:07:04] <websys> Got it - thank you
[22:07:04] <anonimasu> http://www.bojn.net/~an0n/test.jpg
[22:07:58] <websys> perf board?
[22:08:10] <anonimasu> nope..
[22:08:16] <anonimasu> ground isolation plate..
[22:08:20] <anonimasu> Whee!
[22:08:24] <anonimasu> it's 7.00 dead on ;)
[22:08:43] <anonimasu> as the cad drawing..
[22:09:12] <anonimasu> neat..
[22:10:43] <anonimasu> websys: that isolation stuff is pretty cheap 2x1m is like 24$
[22:10:51] <anonimasu> 2dm thick..
[22:11:00] <anonimasu> or maybe 1.5 but still..
[22:11:05] <anonimasu> not expensive at all..
[22:11:15] <websys> nice
[22:18:32] <ottos> good day gents...
[22:18:52] <alex_joni> hello
[22:19:36] <anonimasu> hello
[22:20:30] <ottos> any comments on the new pc mentioned by Paul..?
[22:21:35] <alex_joni> new pc ?
[22:22:24] <ottos> i mean the new card interfaced with mini pc..526 series if I think..
[22:23:48] <ottos> gotta run see youltr.a+
[22:28:01] <anonimasu> :D
[22:29:52] <websys> anon - what did you use to generate that code?
[22:30:58] <anonimasu> visualmill + a custom post
[22:31:21] <anonimasu> modified turbocnc post..
[22:31:23] <anonimasu> :)
[22:31:46] <websys> thx
[22:32:08] <anonimasu> if you want the post I can send you it
[22:36:13] <websys> that would be interesting - please do
[22:36:45] <websys> bobs@webersys.com
[22:38:58] <anonimasu> done..
[22:42:25] <anonimasu> it should arrive in a bit..
[22:45:10] <websys> thx anon - got it
[22:46:34] <anonimasu> the part I machined is a housing for a machine to place seeds ;)
[22:47:06] <anonimasu> or rather a prototype.. of a housing..
[22:53:25] <websys> You used a helical entry and conentric circles to mill a square part?
[22:53:34] <websys> concentric
[23:05:03] <anonimasu> that's how the program generated it..
[23:05:20] <anonimasu> the circles are for making the hole in the center..
[23:05:48] <anonimasu> the entry aswell..
[23:06:45] <anonimasu> :)
[23:08:10] <websys> I plotted the cutter path and can't see how a hole is generated by that
[23:08:57] <anonimasu> :)
[23:09:00] <anonimasu> I milled the part..
[23:09:05] <anonimasu> the hole really is there ;)
[23:09:39] <anonimasu> it makes the hole as a series of circles with a stepover to the next circle at the end..
[23:10:02] <anonimasu> the entry is to stop the plastic I'll be milling later on from gouging..
[23:11:23] <websys> Would you mind looking at the image I created and tell me if I plotted what the machine did?
[23:11:43] <anonimasu> sure
[23:13:00] <websys> http://www.webersys.com/anon.jpg
[23:14:49] <les> nice spiral entry
[23:15:32] <les> I usually use about a 20 degree helix angle
[23:15:44] <anonimasu> yes that's right..
[23:15:44] <anonimasu> :)
[23:16:12] <les> And I run a bit faster with fresh bits
[23:16:17] <anonimasu> :)
[23:16:32] <les> A carbide bit is lasting about 2-3 days
[23:16:57] <les> some are $75 each
[23:17:14] <websys> Doh! I see what I did wrong - deleted the moves after drilling
[23:17:18] <les> So that sharpener I cobbled up is saving a bunch of money
[23:17:28] <anonimasu> lol
[23:17:33] <anonimasu> that was the contouring..
[23:19:23] <anonimasu> neat!
[23:19:25] <websys> Makes sense now - ty
[23:19:38] <anonimasu> les: did you see my piece?
[23:19:42] <anonimasu> http://www.bojn.net/~an0n/test.jpg
[23:19:43] <anonimasu> :)
[23:19:46] <anonimasu> first emc made part
[23:21:31] <anonimasu> les: 20 deg helix angle?
[23:21:37] <anonimasu> les: would that work for plastic?
[23:24:15] <les> oops sorry
[23:24:28] <les> yeah 20 would work for plastic
[23:24:47] <les> especially good since plunges tend to melt
[23:24:58] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[23:25:07] <les> let me look at your link
[23:25:10] <anonimasu> ok
[23:25:53] <les> cool
[23:26:01] <les> very first emc part?
[23:27:49] <les> couple of emc made things on my blog...you may have seen them
[23:28:01] <les> http://lmwatts.com/v-web/b2/
[23:28:07] <anonimasu> never seen the blog I think
[23:28:11] <anonimasu> just the stuff on the page
[23:30:59] <anonimasu> very nice!
[23:31:04] <les> ty
[23:31:26] <anonimasu> that prototype part looks cool
[23:31:31] <les> that encoder was made in acetal
[23:31:34] <les> delrin
[23:31:48] <les> about the nicest plastic to machine
[23:33:08] <paul_c> * paul_c does some Fred baiting on CCED
[23:33:22] <les> The production part is glass filed nylon 66
[23:33:42] <anonimasu> I have some very hard plastic that chips neatly
[23:33:48] <les> fred baiting? I had better have a look...
[23:33:49] <anonimasu> and produces nice finish when machines..
[23:33:53] <anonimasu> machined..
[23:34:07] <anonimasu> I'll post a image of the finished part tomorrow afternoon if I get around to machining it
[23:34:30] <websys> I had problems with thermal expansion when machining Delrin
[23:34:42] <les> I was trying to guess what material that was
[23:34:57] <anonimasu> I got some nasty plastic for doing theese housings in..
[23:35:04] <paul_c> * paul_c hammers home the CAD/CAM content...
[23:35:05] <anonimasu> but I think it'll machine better if I put it in the fridge..
[23:35:06] <les> websys: a blast of cold air works wonders!
[23:35:28] <websys> LOL - so does liquid nitrogen
[23:35:30] <les> vortex cold air gun
[23:35:39] <les> ha yeah
[23:35:53] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:36:08] <anonimasu> I kind of have trouble obtaining that over here
[23:36:09] <anonimasu> heh
[23:36:47] <les> make one
[23:37:14] <les> It's just a special swirl chamber
[23:37:29] <paul_c> * paul_c wonders if Fred Smith will bite....
[23:38:30] <anonimasu> haha
[23:39:00] <les> paul it looks like you are trying to make money here
[23:39:08] <les> well you ought to
[23:39:21] <les> BDI ought to be $100
[23:39:32] <les> wash my mouth out with soap
[23:40:20] <paul_c> Oh pooh.... I didn't include a link to linuxcnc.org...
[23:40:44] <les> If Fred is smart he WON"T bite
[23:40:44] <paul_c> les: You wanna reply ?
[23:41:10] <les> I could
[23:41:21] <les> it would just duplicate
[23:41:38] <les> Is this war against Fred week?
[23:41:48] <les> He is a bit of a snit
[23:43:39] <paul_c> * paul_c googles for "snit" and cmes up with a tcl url.
[23:44:01] <les> haha
[23:45:01] <les> If he replied it would just bring up the free vs not free
[23:45:46] <anonimasu> heh
[23:46:12] <les> If he says nothing he should know that it is a bit likely that this user might have problems with emc requiring some specialised knowledge
[23:46:13] <paul_c> fine by me - Give me opportunity to point out that DeskCNC may contain GPL code.
[23:46:36] <les> hmm
[23:47:30] <anonimasu> hm, paul_c free emc but pay for support?
[23:47:33] <anonimasu> err bdi
[23:47:43] <les> so if he's smart he will say nothing and hope that the guy will get glazed eyes with emc
[23:48:18] <anonimasu> hehe
[23:48:19] <les> pay for support....i'll owe paul my soul
[23:48:32] <anonimasu> lol
[23:49:03] <websys> sould? Gee I only owe him an arm and a leg so far
[23:49:09] <les> haha
[23:49:15] <anonimasu> you werent serious ;)
[23:49:19] <anonimasu> or were you?
[23:49:42] <les> me?
[23:49:53] <les> ha
[23:50:42] <les> See...Fred has no reply....perhaps he is not so dumb
[23:51:21] <paul_c> give him a chance to think of a reply.
[23:52:03] <websys> Where is this discussion taking place?
[23:52:18] <les> A "you get what you pay for" dialog would get him exactly nowhere
[23:52:21] <paul_c> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO
[23:54:56] <websys> ty - very interesting
[23:55:32] <les> I post there a bit
[23:55:44] <les> try to answer questions
[23:56:08] <les> In exchange for my sig having links to my sites
[23:56:31] <les> read by a few thousand folks
[23:56:52] <les> Whenever I post web hits take a huge spike
[23:57:39] <anonimasu> :)/win 9
[23:57:41] <anonimasu> whoops..
[23:57:53] <les> 6425 members
[23:58:33] <websys> Guess I'll have to join and offer my 2 cents when I can
[23:59:16] <les> well, if you are a professional in the field help is appreciated
[23:59:46] <les> and you send a link to 6000 target market folks that WANT to know about your stuff
[23:59:56] <anonimasu> ;)