#emc | Logs for 2005-02-06

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[00:00:51] <asdfclone> what I get with ctl-c:
[00:00:55] <slomo> do an lsmod and see how many modules are loaded
[00:01:12] <asdfclone> Exception in Tkinter callback
[00:01:16] <asdfclone> Traceback (most recent call last):
[00:01:16] <asdfclone> File "/usr/lib/python2.3/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 1345, in __call__
[00:01:16] <asdfclone> return self.func(*args)
[00:01:16] <asdfclone> File "/usr/lib/python2.3/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 456, in callit
[00:01:16] <asdfclone> func(*args)
[00:01:16] <asdfclone> File "plat/nonrealtime/bin/axis", line 566, in update
[00:01:18] <asdfclone> if i != a[-1]: widgets.code_text.insert("end", " ")
[00:01:20] <asdfclone> KeyboardInterrupt
[00:02:28] <asdfclone> Ooo, interesting - it didn't come up this time
[00:04:13] <asdfclone> freqmod 278624 0
[00:04:13] <asdfclone> rtai_shm 9088 1 freqmod
[00:04:14] <asdfclone> rtai_up 53308 2 freqmod,rtai_shm
[00:04:14] <asdfclone> rtai_hal 18252 1 rtai_up
[00:04:15] <asdfclone> adeos 18304 2 rtai_up,rtai_hal
[00:05:17] <asdfclone> Is the number of modules important?
[00:05:41] <slomo> well on my end there was about two pages of modules loaded
[00:06:02] <slomo> and i think thats what causing my problems
[00:07:22] <asdfclone> Same here - just the regular system stuff
[00:08:21] <slomo> cradek: is there a quick and dirty method to remove modules, other than rmmod each one ?
[00:09:13] <asdfclone> slomo: what are you thinking?
[00:09:54] <slomo> there are far to many modules and i get errors on boot, can't remove unused modules
[00:19:17] <asdfclone> slomo: I've compiled a 2.6.9 kernel on my own Debian system, and I have a bunch of modules of IDE controllers marked [permanent] from lsmod - I'm puzzled as to why, but they don't seem to hurt anything
[00:23:51] <asdfclone> I'm interrupting it from update(self) - so where is the window?
[00:27:25] <asdfclone> Is there a debug output from axis?
[00:27:50] <asdfclone> oops, s/output/option
[00:31:53] <asdfclone> Hm, maybe a better question to ask, since I'm not running a default .ini - Does Axis work with bridgeportio?
[00:41:44] <asdfclone> Okay, that's not it
[00:45:10] <jmkasunich> uh oh
[00:45:10] <robin_sz> meep!
[00:45:25] <robin_sz> evening
[00:45:36] <robin_sz> today has been a frustrating day ...
[00:45:52] <jmkasunich> exhausting here
[00:46:04] <robin_sz> got the G2002 code from steve hardy with the emc interp embedded
[00:46:13] <robin_sz> tried it last night .. worked a treat
[00:46:17] <jmkasunich> been following that on the gecko list
[00:46:28] <robin_sz> tried it agian today and it does fandango on core
[00:46:32] <robin_sz> right
[00:46:39] <robin_sz> totally weird
[00:47:11] <robin_sz> id believe I had dreamt it, but my wife saw it too.
[00:47:13] <robin_sz> sigh
[00:47:19] <robin_sz> anyway .. what you been up to?
[00:48:04] <jmkasunich> work, hauling junk, trying to clean out the basement, ebay, planning a bathroom remodel.....
[00:48:18] <jmkasunich> I just can't seem to resist dumpster diving
[00:48:19] <robin_sz> coo. hauling junk?
[00:48:27] <robin_sz> hauling junk in, or out?
[00:48:32] <jmkasunich> yes
[00:48:37] <robin_sz> :)
[00:48:42] <robin_sz> more servos
[00:49:08] <jmkasunich> brought the stuff that I grabbed over the last couple weeks home over the last 3 days
[00:49:09] <asdfqwega> Stuff = junk you keep
[00:49:14] <asdfqwega> junk = stuff you throw away
[00:49:20] <jmkasunich> lol
[00:49:23] <robin_sz> :)
[00:49:26] <robin_sz> too true
[00:49:31] <jmkasunich> I got's lots of both, and sometimes it's hard to tell the difference
[00:49:50] <robin_sz> seen the wiki develping nicely?
[00:50:24] <jmkasunich> re: servos... 12 motors, 6 controllers of various types and stages of disrepair, and 15 or so axis modules (AB 1394 AC stuff)
[00:50:33] <robin_sz> wow
[00:50:35] <jmkasunich> plus three analog DC servoamps and motors
[00:50:45] <robin_sz> thats a good haul!
[00:50:46] <asdfqwega> robin: what's the current url on the wiki? I've lost it
[00:50:57] <jmkasunich> I'm gonna pass much of it on to Ray, he can make better use of it than I can
[00:51:04] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega needs to find the dumpsters jmk is diving in
[00:51:17] <robin_sz> asdfqwega: linked from linuxcnc.org or http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EmcKnowledgeBase
[00:51:45] <jmkasunich> how about a couple HP Netserver LPr computers... 3-1/2" high rackmount jobbies
[00:51:52] <robin_sz> asdfqwega: set the admin password as 'emc' in preferences to edit it
[00:52:04] <robin_sz> neat
[00:52:13] <robin_sz> powerful?
[00:52:19] <jmkasunich> one is dual P3-600, with 2x18G SCSI drives and hardware RAID
[00:52:27] <robin_sz> !! nice
[00:52:50] <jmkasunich> the other is a single P2-400, 2x9G drives
[00:52:56] <robin_sz> I have a new server here ..
[00:53:33] <jmkasunich> I wish I had more bandwidth, I'd set one of these up and serve BDI images and such
[00:53:43] <robin_sz> 1U, dual Xeon 2.8ghz em64t, 1gb ram, dual psus, dual 3gb scsi on hw raid
[00:54:01] <robin_sz> yeah, bandwidth ...
[00:54:05] <jmkasunich> wow... how'd they fit all that in 1U?
[00:54:20] <robin_sz> dunno .. theres a cdrom and room for a floppy too
[00:54:27] <jmkasunich> wait, 1G RAM and only 2x3G disk?
[00:54:34] <robin_sz> 36gb
[00:54:41] <jmkasunich> more like it
[00:54:43] <robin_sz> typo
[00:54:53] <jmkasunich> 3G is just about big enough for swap ;-)
[00:55:11] <robin_sz> plus dual 1000BASEt network cards and 2 pci slots ...
[00:55:20] <robin_sz> its quite 'compact' :)
[00:55:28] <jmkasunich> nice
[00:55:37] <jmkasunich> these aren't really compact
[00:55:49] <jmkasunich> only 2U hi, but 27" deep and 40 lbs
[00:57:01] <jmkasunich> I really need to clean out my mailbox more often
[00:57:09] <jmkasunich> 336 messages (95% emc related)
[00:59:59] <robin_sz> THATS NOTHING
[01:00:02] <robin_sz> oops
[01:00:15] <robin_sz> I have over 600mb of mail ... maybe more
[01:00:31] <jmkasunich> in your inbox?
[01:00:44] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega drops his soda
[01:00:46] <robin_sz> nah, total
[01:00:50] <asdfqwega> ?!
[01:00:52] <robin_sz> wait .. 2.3G
[01:01:01] <jmkasunich> I meant 336 messages in the inbox, from the last 3 weeks or so
[01:01:06] <robin_sz> archives of previous years I meant
[01:01:13] <robin_sz> wow. thats a lot
[01:01:27] <robin_sz> I didnt realise mec was so active :)
[01:01:40] <jmkasunich> I have something like 67 Meg total
[01:01:53] <robin_sz> perhaps we can persuade the rampant emailers to write stuff on the wiki instead :)
[01:02:08] <jmkasunich> I'm subscribed to users, developers and commit lists... it adds up
[01:02:24] <robin_sz> yeah
[01:02:38] <asdfqwega> 1/4 of users is "I have a problem"
[01:02:46] <robin_sz> hey, sign up for Ixion, the motorcyclists mailing list .. 200+ messages a dya :)
[01:02:47] <asdfqwega> 1/4 is "post your .ini"
[01:03:01] <jmkasunich> I read em using a webmail client, but every so often I need to download them to clean things out
[01:04:00] <asdfqwega> I've been switching computers too often to accumulate email
[01:04:37] <asdfqwega> I do, however, have a 138MB .tar.gz of my .mozilla somewhere around here
[01:07:43] <robin_sz> sigh ... I wish I could get this board to work again ...
[01:07:47] <robin_sz> its deffo not running.
[01:07:53] <jmkasunich> the g2002?
[01:08:00] <robin_sz> its OK with other version of the code though
[01:08:04] <robin_sz> yeah, the 3003
[01:08:06] <robin_sz> 2002
[01:08:12] <robin_sz> * robin_sz cant type
[01:08:49] <robin_sz> I'm not really set up to debug it ...
[01:09:02] <robin_sz> wheres picnet?
[01:09:37] <robin_sz> I guess I need the Dynamic C package to run the debug stuff over the serial cable
[01:11:15] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr, hey, missed that message you sent. good.
[01:11:41] <jmkasunich> someday I want to get a g2002 and do a HAL driver for it
[01:11:54] <jmkasunich> but that comes after about 200 other things on the TODO list
[01:12:00] <A-L-P-H-A> excellent sleep cycle. slept from 10pm-5am, and from 9am-6pm. :( I think I maybe sick,or allergies from the Toronto Smug.
[01:12:00] <robin_sz> right :)
[01:12:01] <A-L-P-H-A> Smog
[01:12:38] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: and first you have to get it passed by The Board ;)
[01:13:02] <jmkasunich> yeah, right, sure, I'll make sure to do that first
[01:13:38] <robin_sz> * robin_sz stops stirring
[01:13:40] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich looks at board mailing list archives
[01:13:49] <jmkasunich> 4 messages since October
[01:14:00] <jmkasunich> real active, this board is
[01:14:19] <robin_sz> I saw the feature tracker kinda stopped accumulating more features a few months ago
[01:14:40] <jmkasunich> I wish people would use the trackers more
[01:14:55] <robin_sz> did any of them get done?
[01:15:10] <jmkasunich> any what? bugs and feature requests?
[01:15:42] <robin_sz> feature requests
[01:16:50] <jmkasunich> 6 closed since september
[01:17:23] <jmkasunich> 23 open
[01:19:54] <jmkasunich> there are entries from as recently as december
[01:19:59] <robin_sz> 'k some got doen then
[01:20:04] <robin_sz> right
[01:20:54] <jmkasunich> most people aren't using the trackers, they just do what they do
[01:21:09] <robin_sz> if it can be made to work, the G2002 with the emc interp and a usb link to a windows front end looks like a dream ticket for me
[01:21:13] <robin_sz> right
[01:21:58] <robin_sz> this Fox GUI isnt bad either
[01:22:07] <robin_sz> seems to run on Linux and Doze
[01:22:48] <robin_sz> you can even compile for the doze verison undoer linux ...
[01:22:59] <robin_sz> saves a bit of pain
[01:25:09] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[01:25:53] <robin_sz> oh kewl ... hes doen a 3d openGL toolpath visualization tool too
[01:26:53] <anonimasu> hm, does anyone of you do any work on the .ini parser?
[01:27:22] <jmkasunich> worked near it, not directly on it
[01:27:35] <jmkasunich> what do you want to know about it?
[01:27:38] <anonimasu> hm, there's a problem with the .hal stuff
[01:27:48] <jmkasunich> that's my department
[01:27:50] <jmkasunich> what's the problem
[01:28:00] <anonimasu> inverting pins in the config file dosent seem to work..
[01:28:07] <anonimasu> I am not running the latest CVS though..
[01:28:30] <robin_sz> * robin_sz adds "try the latest version of emc2" to his weekend to-do list
[01:28:42] <anonimasu> but pin-01-invert in the .hal files dosent work..
[01:28:48] <robin_sz> how is it these dyas anyway? ...
[01:28:52] <jmkasunich> how are you inverting? with the "polarity" lines in the .ini file, or using the HAL
[01:29:04] <anonimasu> the direction lines..
[01:29:15] <anonimasu> err using the hal..
[01:29:17] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:29:27] <jmkasunich> let me start an emc2
[01:29:37] <anonimasu> I ended up hacking my parport driver to invert it for me..
[01:30:05] <anonimasu> ok
[01:30:20] <jmkasunich> "your" driver? meaning you aren't using the hal parport driver? or meaning you hacked the hal parport driver
[01:30:41] <anonimasu> I hacked the hal parport driver to give me my outs inverted..
[01:30:55] <anonimasu> but, that's a bad solution..
[01:30:56] <anonimasu> :)
[01:31:36] <jmkasunich> strange... if the "invert" parameters aren't working, then there's been a bug in that driver for a year or more, and nobody noticed...
[01:32:11] <anonimasu> err the problem is this line: linksp Xdir parport.0.pin-02-out-invert
[01:32:26] <jmkasunich> ah, I see
[01:32:45] <jmkasunich> pin-02-out-invert is not a HAL pin that you link to
[01:33:02] <jmkasunich> it's a HAL parameter that you change from 0 to 1 to invert the pin 2 signal
[01:33:16] <anonimasu> hmm, ok
[01:33:26] <jmkasunich> you want to do:
[01:33:43] <jmkasunich> linksp Xdir parport.0.pin-02-out
[01:33:47] <jmkasunich> and then:
[01:34:00] <jmkasunich> setp parport.0.pin-02-out-invert 1
[01:34:05] <anonimasu> ah
[01:34:12] <jmkasunich> to undo the inversion:
[01:34:24] <anonimasu> I thought it was a pin.. since that's the way it's written in the hal_intro pdf..
[01:34:25] <jmkasunich> setp parport.0.pin-02-out-invert 0
[01:34:39] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich checks the doc
[01:34:43] <anonimasu> in the port diagrams..
[01:34:47] <anonimasu> page 71 I belive
[01:35:13] <anonimasu> maybe I didnt read enough, but it looks like a secondary pin ;)
[01:35:52] <jmkasunich> figure 4.1?
[01:36:18] <anonimasu> wait a sec need to grab the file
[01:36:23] <jmkasunich> pins are the ones that extend thru the border of the block
[01:36:36] <jmkasunich> anything that is entirely inside the block is a parameter
[01:36:59] <anonimasu> page 63..
[01:37:00] <anonimasu> :)
[01:37:16] <anonimasu> 4.1 and the one on top
[01:37:35] <anonimasu> yeah..
[01:37:39] <anonimasu> I didnt read enough
[01:37:46] <anonimasu> * anonimasu feels stupid
[01:37:51] <jmkasunich> don't
[01:38:21] <jmkasunich> the problem with docs written by the program author is that he already knows the info, so he can write very confusing things and not realize it
[01:38:37] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[01:38:47] <robin_sz> been guilty of that many times myself
[01:38:53] <anonimasu> * anonimasu too
[01:39:08] <anonimasu> it's hard writing about stuff you've designed...
[01:39:10] <anonimasu> :)
[01:39:42] <jmkasunich> unfortunately, it's even harder to get others to write about it... so if I want it documented (and I do), I have to write it myself
[01:40:20] <anonimasu> yeah
[01:40:21] <anonimasu> :)
[01:44:01] <robin_sz> yeah, the fit of activity on the wiki seems to have tailed off a bit
[01:45:49] <robin_sz> I see a bit on the NetMos // port card got added tonight. neat :)
[01:45:52] <asdfqwega> Whee!
[01:46:08] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega adds a page to the wiki
[01:46:21] <robin_sz> cheers dude!
[01:46:35] <robin_sz> was that fun?
[01:46:42] <asdfqwega> ...
[01:46:54] <asdfqwega> ...I need clean pants, it was that fun.
[01:46:57] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich takes a look
[01:47:20] <asdfqwega> I added that because I remember something in the EMC archives about NetMos cards
[01:47:52] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[01:48:20] <robin_sz> if lots of little bits of knowledge get filtered into it .. it will be a useful resource
[01:48:32] <jmkasunich> ok, I see something I want to change, how do I do it?
[01:48:44] <robin_sz> select 'preferences'
[01:48:46] <asdfqwega> Use a hammer
[01:48:58] <robin_sz> put 'emc' as the admin password
[01:49:34] <robin_sz> press 'save' at the bottom of page ...
[01:49:43] <jmkasunich> I set my own password as well, right?
[01:49:52] <robin_sz> dont bothher with that
[01:50:04] <robin_sz> just the admin password will do
[01:50:15] <robin_sz> back to your page you want to edit ...
[01:50:29] <jmkasunich> leave it completely blank? (there was one * there when I started, I already typed a password over that)
[01:50:40] <asdfqwega> Ugh - wiki does strange formatting changes
[01:50:52] <robin_sz> whatever .. balnk, *, wibble
[01:51:04] <robin_sz> it doesnt do what you think it does
[01:51:30] <jmkasunich> ok, back on the page I want to change
[01:51:38] <asdfqwega> I need to edit my own writing now
[01:51:53] <jmkasunich> I want to add a URL (link outside the wiki)
[01:53:15] <robin_sz> just type the url
[01:53:38] <robin_sz> http://foo.bar.net/bar
[01:54:11] <jmkasunich> no <a href="blah"> </a> tags needed?
[01:54:15] <robin_sz> nope
[01:54:57] <jmkasunich> should I put anything in the "summary" line?
[01:55:19] <robin_sz> if you wish to describe what you did ina summary, yes, but its not important
[01:55:27] <robin_sz> blank is fine
[01:55:44] <jmkasunich> would it accept the HTML tags if I use them?
[01:56:06] <robin_sz> somne
[01:56:14] <robin_sz> but not <a></a>
[01:56:19] <jmkasunich> drat
[01:56:22] <robin_sz> but ...
[01:56:32] <asdfqwega> There, all better
[01:56:38] <jmkasunich> I don't want the whole stinkin URL visible, just the name of the document
[01:56:57] <robin_sz> click [http://foo.bar.net here] would work too
[01:57:11] <robin_sz> [url text]
[01:57:33] <jmkasunich> figures... they go and invent another syntax when we already have a perfectly good one
[01:57:34] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega scratches his head
[01:57:54] <asdfqwega> What do I know that others need to know, but I don't know that I know?
[01:59:16] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: the problem with accepting html tags is it leaves it open to such things as cross-site scripting and various other attacks
[01:59:25] <jmkasunich> I see
[01:59:44] <robin_sz> whatever, just type stuff, information is more important than presentation style ..
[01:59:57] <robin_sz> generally speaking it just Does The Right Thing
[02:00:12] <robin_sz> and if it doesnt, soemone else will edit the stylee thing
[02:00:13] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega could murder a steak right about now
[02:00:29] <robin_sz> but content is crucial
[02:00:50] <jmkasunich> well in this case, the content had been copied from linuxcnc.org, but the links were busted
[02:00:55] <robin_sz> right
[02:01:19] <jmkasunich> better now
[02:02:18] <robin_sz> it retains the [ brackets ] t denote off-site links
[02:02:34] <asdfqwega> Later, guys - and be sure to talk about lots of interesting things while I'm gone so I can read the backlog :)
[02:02:48] <robin_sz> click on 'recent changes' at the top to see what people have doen
[02:02:58] <robin_sz> asdfqwega: cheers dude, have anice one
[02:03:08] <jmkasunich> how do I create a new page and link to it?
[02:03:23] <robin_sz> easy
[02:03:38] <robin_sz> first creat a link to it .. it triggers on two things:
[02:03:43] <robin_sz> ThisStyle
[02:03:54] <robin_sz> or [[a new page name]]
[02:04:16] <robin_sz> just edit a page that you want the link to appear in.
[02:04:40] <jmkasunich> go to the Xylotex page
[02:04:55] <jmkasunich> I want to create a page about using Xylotex with EMC2
[02:05:05] <robin_sz> right ..
[02:05:08] <jmkasunich> my attempt at making the link is there, with a ?
[02:05:16] <robin_sz> click the ?
[02:05:16] <jmkasunich> duh, the ? is a link
[02:05:22] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[02:05:39] <robin_sz> type stuff, press save
[02:08:56] <jmkasunich> dang
[02:09:18] <robin_sz> Steve Stallings is pretty up-to-speed on the formatting and keen to help out, but doesnt have huge amounts of EMC knowledge (or so he claims) .. so just tyep stuff, someone will make it look pretty :)
[02:09:19] <jmkasunich> how do you do the equivalent of <br> or <pre> </pre>?
[02:09:38] <robin_sz> mostly you dont need <br>
[02:09:48] <robin_sz> just pressing return will do it
[02:09:53] <jmkasunich> got a list of halcmd commands, want one per line
[02:10:09] <robin_sz> ahh, one moment .. thinking :)
[02:10:12] <jmkasunich> copy/paste from the .hal file into the wiki window didn't work
[02:10:18] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich tries <pre>
[02:10:22] <robin_sz> * robin_sz goes to look
[02:10:57] <jmkasunich> works better if I can actually type
[02:11:14] <robin_sz> nice
[02:11:32] <robin_sz> easy huh?
[02:12:22] <jmkasunich> yeah
[02:13:07] <robin_sz> you can see why they are popular for group documentation projects ...
[02:13:18] <robin_sz> manu users make light work
[02:13:22] <robin_sz> many
[02:15:23] <SteveStallings> OK, I searched the wiki on ModUse and got so many hits on <pre> that the search was useless. What does <pre> do?
[02:15:46] <robin_sz> pre formatted text
[02:15:57] <robin_sz> its an html thing
[02:16:06] <jmkasunich> <pre> some text </pre> means that "some text" is formatted, and the browser shouldn't screw with it
[02:16:35] <jmkasunich> usually causes the browser to use a mono-spaced font, and respect the tabs, linefeeds, etc, in the text
[02:16:50] <jmkasunich> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Xylotex_With_EMC2
[02:16:50] <robin_sz> usually ;)
[02:17:58] <SteveStallings> OK, I thought the wiki editor was pretty good about that as is, but this example proves otherwise.
[02:18:16] <robin_sz> yeah, sometimes, its handy ...
[02:18:33] <robin_sz> but generally, just let the text flow and the browser sort it out
[02:18:37] <jmkasunich> for things like ini file snippets, it
[02:18:44] <jmkasunich> it's invaluable, IMHO
[02:18:47] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[02:19:59] <robin_sz> if just a page a day gets added .. it will be quite someting fairly quickly
[02:20:15] <SteveStallings> There is also another handy one for documenting wiki code examples. You can <nowiki> and put any HTML here and it will be ignored until </nowiki>.
[02:20:56] <jmkasunich> I see folks have been playing a bit
[02:21:03] <jmkasunich> I added my 2 cents there
[02:21:09] <jmkasunich> (2 cats actually)
[02:21:37] <robin_sz> heh,
[02:26:10] <anonimasu> night everyone
[02:26:16] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[02:30:05] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich needs a bigger KVM switch
[02:31:15] <robin_sz> right, bedtime!
[02:56:05] <A-L-P-H-A> what way gives me a better finish if I'm milling a hole?
[02:56:22] <A-L-P-H-A> move
[04:59:50] <jeffw> has anybody been able to compile the simulator under linux 2.6?
[09:48:23] <anonimasu> hello everyone
[10:20:35] <A-L-P-H-A> morning whoever is around.
[10:37:26] <robin_sz> meep!
[10:57:06] <robin_sz> hey picnet!
[11:00:21] <A-L-P-H-A> hello
[11:01:07] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, I haven't tinkered with the BDI much yet. Is there a visual 3d simulator on it?
[11:04:45] <robin_sz> mmmm
[11:05:24] <robin_sz> dunno ... there is wossisnames Axis thing .. dunnu if its on the BDI
[11:05:53] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, uh, is there a name you could give me so I could google it?
[11:06:05] <A-L-P-H-A> dang. so hungry... haven't eaten in 7hrs.
[11:06:25] <robin_sz> uh, no, but .. it must be on the users list, we could put it on the Wiki!
[11:06:54] <robin_sz> ive not managed to compileit here, so ive not seen it
[11:08:15] <robin_sz> Copyright (C) 2004 Jeff Epler <jepler@unpythonic.net> and
[11:08:15] <robin_sz> Chris Radek <chris@timeguy.com>
[11:08:15] <robin_sz> AXIS's home page is
[11:08:15] <robin_sz> http://axis.unpythonic.net/
[11:08:57] <A-L-P-H-A> thanks.
[11:11:12] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm people coming out of the woodwork. :)
[11:15:13] <robin_sz> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Axis_Frontend
[11:15:38] <robin_sz> most of the text stolen straight from the Axis hoempage, obviously ;)
[12:02:43] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, hahahaha. :) thanks.
[12:03:46] <Imperator_> Hi Robin, which wiki engine is used for emcwiki ??
[12:36:42] <robin_sz> Imperator_: usemod
[12:37:05] <Imperator_> ok, thanks
[12:37:35] <robin_sz> if you want a wiki running, just say
[12:38:04] <Imperator_> do you have to much bandwich :-)
[12:38:13] <robin_sz> not loads .. couple of megs
[12:38:37] <robin_sz> depends on how popular the wiki is :)
[12:38:54] <Imperator_> i have at work also some servers running, with a nice wire to the net
[12:39:15] <robin_sz> 'k
[12:39:23] <Imperator_> 3GB from the network center to the world
[12:39:28] <robin_sz> ahh, noce
[12:39:30] <robin_sz> nice
[12:39:41] <Imperator_> but only a 100MBit wire to the network center :-)
[12:40:01] <robin_sz> yeah, we have a rack in a london colo center
[12:40:14] <robin_sz> but we only pay for 2mb at the monent
[12:40:36] <Imperator_> a compleate rack ??
[12:40:38] <robin_sz> yep
[12:40:49] <Imperator_> nice
[12:41:03] <Imperator_> not that cheap
[12:41:10] <robin_sz> 4k/year
[12:41:19] <Imperator_> pound ?
[12:41:36] <robin_sz> uh huh
[12:41:44] <Imperator_> 6kEUR
[12:41:49] <robin_sz> bout that
[12:43:48] <Imperator_> ok thats cheaper for me, have only to take another old computer and to find a new network cable and to call the network center to open the ports if i want to conect a new server to the net
[12:44:40] <robin_sz> same here, I will be removing a old 17U server and replacing with 1U next week, then I have lots of space.
[12:44:58] <robin_sz> we tend to use 1 or 2U machines, old boxes are big and slow
[12:45:41] <Imperator_> or maybe these blade servers, are also a solutian
[12:46:02] <robin_sz> possibly, but 1U machines are cheap and powerful
[12:46:15] <Imperator_> 8 servers in a 4U housing, i think
[12:46:21] <Imperator_> jep
[12:46:29] <robin_sz> just got a 1U dual xeon for 1700 gbp
[12:48:17] <Imperator_> I use 600MHz PIII computers (Siemens Celsius out of our old computer pool, very stable) for 0 EUR :-)
[12:49:44] <Imperator_> but maybe a smal rack would also be nice, but than i have to buy some new servers
[12:51:12] <Imperator_> not that professional to use old computers but i have enough space and it's working wery good since 4 years up to now
[12:51:38] <robin_sz> yeah whatever works
[12:51:52] <robin_sz> usemod is simple to insrtall .. 5 minutes max
[12:53:08] <Imperator_> and some hours more for fine tuning
[12:53:21] <Imperator_> and playing with it
[12:54:16] <Imperator_> I was searching last year for a wiki that can do good PDF exports but i give up
[12:54:31] <A-L-P-H-A> on a US keyboard, what to alt-# do I hit, to get a euro symbol?
[12:54:45] <A-L-P-H-A> sterlin/pound symbols as well.
[12:54:54] <robin_sz> Imperator_: if you tink about it .. its almost impossibe
[12:55:33] <robin_sz> Imperator_: a wiki is not structured into any order is it .. its just a web of interelated pages .. what order would they come out in a pdf?
[12:55:59] <Imperator_> A-L-P-H-A : altGr+E here
[12:56:17] <A-L-P-H-A> what's altGr?
[12:56:25] <A-L-P-H-A> won't work. :/
[12:56:53] <Imperator_> the "alt" button on the right side of the keyboard (on a german one)
[12:56:54] <A-L-P-H-A>
[12:57:04] <A-L-P-H-A> � - alt-156
[12:57:23] <Imperator_> robin_sz: maybe it has to take thestructure of a index page
[12:58:58] <A-L-P-H-A> � did that show up for anyone?
[12:59:18] <A-L-P-H-A> � <-- supposedly a euro sysbol, but doesn't show up on my end.
[12:59:27] <Imperator_> pund symbol
[12:59:42] <Imperator_>
[13:00:06] <A-L-P-H-A> nope
[13:00:10] <Imperator_> � <-- Euro Symbol
[13:00:25] <A-L-P-H-A> that looks like the corner of a box. The top right corner.
[13:00:50] <Imperator_> than you don't have it in your fonts
[13:01:02] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm.
[13:01:03] <Imperator_> are you on a windoze box ?
[13:02:16] <les> hello all
[13:02:23] <Imperator_> Hi les
[13:02:29] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, winXP.
[13:02:59] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/ArticleID/15170/15170.html <-- this tells me it's ctrl-alt-4
[13:03:01] <A-L-P-H-A> but it lies.
[13:03:36] <les> I talked to the guy near me (buddy) that got the motenc-100 working on a real machine
[13:03:44] <Imperator_> do you have it in the symbol table of windows
[13:03:51] <les> everything seems to work
[13:03:53] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, ctrl-alt-4 works in all problems, but mirc.
[13:03:56] <A-L-P-H-A> mirc is screwey
[13:04:12] <Imperator_> write EUR
[13:04:58] <A-L-P-H-A> heh.
[13:05:05] <A-L-P-H-A> but I want the symbol. :)
[13:05:42] <Imperator_> maybe mirc uses a font without that symbol
[13:06:08] <les> I would like a different font with mirc
[13:06:18] <les> but seems to be stuck with one
[13:06:43] <Imperator_> but if you swich to another font the others will have still the standard font and they see nothing
[13:09:56] <Imperator_> * Imperator_ back in a minute
[13:10:27] <les> Oh I found the fonts menu in mirc
[13:10:34] <les> kinda hidden
[13:11:09] <A-L-P-H-A> nah, you can change fonts in mirc. I figured it out.
[13:11:11] <A-L-P-H-A> it was the font.
[13:11:34] <les> yeah, double click upper left of a window
[13:12:05] <A-L-P-H-A>
[13:12:13] <A-L-P-H-A> there, a euro sysbol
[13:12:18] <A-L-P-H-A> just that this font is ugly.
[13:13:12] <les> funny that it comes through even though I am using a different font here
[13:13:36] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, the default font mirc uses doesn't support the euro symbol.
[13:13:55] <les> it comes through with arial
[13:16:32] <les> So the guy with the motenc machine has found a Bridgeport for me
[13:16:50] <les> Ballscrews, old control, no motors
[13:16:57] <les> $1000
[13:17:06] <les> sounds like an ok deal
[13:17:51] <les> I saved back some of the SEM servos I was selling ....I will use those
[13:18:43] <A-L-P-H-A> OH! I finally found a nice font.
[13:18:43] <les> They are oem for bridgeport anyway
[13:19:11] <A-L-P-H-A> Lucida Console. :)
[13:19:28] <A-L-P-H-A> works well for mirc.
[13:19:57] <les> Heh... I have a couple thousand true type fonts on this machine....I use them in the cam program for cnc v-carving
[13:20:26] <A-L-P-H-A> brb... reseting all windows. les: remind me about the TTF stuff
[13:22:19] <A-L-P-H-A> okie.
[13:22:27] <A-L-P-H-A> TTF fonts... got some nice ones?
[13:22:45] <les> I think so
[13:22:48] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm looking for a TTF font that is like kanji (oriental characters)
[13:22:53] <les> many are broken though
[13:22:54] <A-L-P-H-A> let me find you same.
[13:22:58] <A-L-P-H-A> a sample.
[13:23:05] <les> ok
[13:23:31] <A-L-P-H-A> http://unknowngenius.com/blog/blog_banner.png
[13:23:44] <A-L-P-H-A> that's the font I'm looking for.
[13:23:58] <les> many cam programs don't like fonts that have repeated points or a tiny crossover somewhere
[13:24:02] <les> looking...
[13:24:28] <A-L-P-H-A> I know... that's why i would use outlineart (TTF -> DXF) and tweak it in autocad.
[13:25:29] <les> I have to manually fix many fonts
[13:26:13] <les> There is some program that cleans up fonts...had a demo of it but forgot the name
[13:27:11] <les> I don't think I have one similar to the one you are showing
[13:27:45] <les> but...since you showed it you already have it!
[13:27:47] <les> haha
[13:28:02] <les> but you need just an outline I guess
[13:28:38] <A-L-P-H-A> yes. but if I can get the TTF of it... :P
[13:28:40] <A-L-P-H-A> that wasn't my site.
[13:29:01] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.webpagepublicity.com/free-fonts.html <-- scanning the fonts now. :(
[13:29:29] <les> These are all machined from TTF:
[13:30:04] <les> http://lmwatts.com/signwp.html
[13:30:21] <A-L-P-H-A> checking
[13:30:49] <A-L-P-H-A> http://lmwatts.com/signwp_files/image008.jpg <-- how'd you get the specaling?
[13:31:22] <A-L-P-H-A> http://lmwatts.com/signwp_files/image012.gif <-- that had to be super expensive.
[13:31:56] <les> image12 Is the solid mahogany...it sold for $600
[13:32:09] <robin_sz> coo. nice price
[13:32:30] <robin_sz> I despair of this rabbit processor
[13:32:45] <les> the speckling is hand chiseled in the background...It only takes 15 min or so and gives a nice effect
[13:33:25] <les> Also covers up tooling marks
[13:33:39] <robin_sz> so, how the fsck do I clean out this rabbit good and proper.
[13:33:46] <robin_sz> err thats rabbit processor
[13:33:52] <robin_sz> not fluffy thing in cage
[13:34:07] <robin_sz> the latter i already know how to clean out
[13:34:11] <les> hi robin
[13:34:15] <robin_sz> (pressure washer ;)
[13:34:18] <robin_sz> hi les
[13:36:28] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.1001freefonts.com/fonts/rfonts2.htm <-- close Rave Heart
[13:37:18] <les> One of the most popular fonts for signs (in the logo picture) is a modified albertus from the '60s cult tv show "the prisoner"
[13:37:50] <les> it's called "villiage"
[13:40:53] <les> village I mean
[13:41:03] <les> v carves very nicely
[13:41:39] <les> grab it...it's here...
[13:41:46] <les> http://www.theprisoner.info/html/prisoner_font.html
[13:42:26] <robin_sz> * robin_sz adds something about the L M Watts router to the wiki
[13:42:59] <les> oh cool thanks
[13:43:17] <robin_sz> heh, I stole the text off your site :)
[13:43:29] <robin_sz> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Les_Watts'_Router
[13:43:31] <les> I don't think I can do wiki stuff on a doze box...not sure
[13:43:38] <robin_sz> course you can s
[13:43:44] <robin_sz> you have a web browser?
[13:43:57] <robin_sz> thats all it needs and the ability to type
[13:44:32] <les> I'm all eyes....
[13:44:37] <anonimasu> hm, altgr + e = euro
[13:44:44] <robin_sz> see that link above
[13:44:45] <les> what do I do...just fill out the form?
[13:44:45] <anonimasu> on the swedish keyboards atleast ;)
[13:45:42] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: I think that font is caleld hirosh
[13:46:15] <anonimasu> http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=960'
[13:46:18] <anonimasu> http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=960
[13:46:38] <A-L-P-H-A> checking
[13:46:44] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah. it is.
[13:46:49] <robin_sz> les: you get a form?
[13:47:06] <A-L-P-H-A> also looking for "faux chinese" "faux japanese"
[13:47:13] <les> oh I see...reading "basic steps"
[13:47:44] <robin_sz> les: if you follow the front page, case studies, les watts router .. you should see what I did
[13:48:34] <anonimasu> http://www.paratype.ru/mstore/fonts/Faux-Japanese.htm
[13:48:35] <anonimasu> ;)
[13:48:41] <anonimasu> not free though
[13:48:47] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah for $24. :P
[13:49:04] <anonimasu> but well, I like the real japanese fonts better ^_^
[13:49:08] <robin_sz> * robin_sz considers actually buying the dynamic C tools
[13:49:21] <les> right got it
[13:50:26] <robin_sz> kewl
[13:51:01] <robin_sz> now, to find some other case studies :)
[13:51:12] <robin_sz> I guess my router and plasma
[13:52:01] <les> yeah
[13:53:45] <les> I had better go and eat my breakfast of grits so I will...um...grow up big and strong
[13:54:02] <les> back in a while
[13:54:05] <robin_sz> 'k
[13:58:01] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=1376 I think this would make for a nice milling font.
[13:58:41] <A-L-P-H-A> aluminium, sprayed with a glossy black, and milled out with that font.
[13:59:02] <robin_sz> right, thats the router done
[13:59:05] <robin_sz> now the plasma
[14:05:58] <alex_joni> greetings
[14:06:43] <A-L-P-H-A> hi
[14:06:59] <alex_joni> hey
[14:07:05] <alex_joni> anything going?
[14:07:11] <thalx> good morning..
[14:07:18] <robin_sz> hey aleax
[14:07:29] <alex_joni> ohoo... a lot of people
[14:07:32] <alex_joni> hey robin
[14:07:36] <alex_joni> hello thalx
[14:07:50] <robin_sz> I was just sitting here, editing the wiki and cursing the rabbit micro :)
[14:08:13] <thalx> What is, precisely, a rabbit micro?
[14:08:29] <alex_joni> a microcontroller
[14:08:36] <robin_sz> the uP on the G2002 controlelr board .. like a PIC chip on steroids
[14:08:39] <thalx> When you asked about cleaning a rabbit processor, and said it wasn't the fluffy thing, I figured it was just a large-ish blender.
[14:09:28] <thalx> I'm still lamenting a CNC mill I didn't get at an auction last week.
[14:09:30] <robin_sz> http://www.rabbitsemiconductor.com/products/kits/
[14:09:32] <alex_joni> how's the wiki going?
[14:09:53] <robin_sz> well, if more people added pages, it would be even better ;) .. but yeah, its going fine :)
[14:10:08] <alex_joni> cradek talked about adding a security feature
[14:10:19] <robin_sz> security feature?
[14:10:26] <alex_joni> one of those recognize the letters in an image
[14:10:28] <thalx> Supermax (taiwan clone), big honking servos, ancient controller (DANA), 30-taper, 32-position toolchanger.
[14:10:32] <alex_joni> to be able to change a page
[14:10:47] <robin_sz> oh, I enabled a password
[14:11:00] <robin_sz> set 'emc' in preferences->administrator password
[14:11:07] <alex_joni> i know about that
[14:11:17] <alex_joni> but that's not a feature for all pages
[14:11:25] <alex_joni> not all users would know that
[14:11:28] <robin_sz> it is too
[14:11:35] <robin_sz> yes they will if they read 'basics'
[14:11:49] <robin_sz> because we tell em on there
[14:11:50] <alex_joni> hmmm...
[14:12:24] <robin_sz> and we've not been spammed since
[14:12:37] <alex_joni> cool
[14:12:40] <alex_joni> good for me ;)
[14:12:48] <Imperator_> Hi Alex
[14:13:20] <alex_joni> hey martin
[14:13:38] <Imperator_> how is it in romenia
[14:13:51] <robin_sz> cold I expect :)
[14:16:09] <alex_joni> we had -19 last night ;)
[14:16:22] <alex_joni> niceee... I just cleaned my display :P
[14:16:27] <alex_joni> shiny and new now
[14:16:56] <Imperator_> uff, thats realy could
[14:17:08] <alex_joni> not inside ;)
[14:17:15] <Imperator_> hope so
[14:18:01] <Imperator_> here it's about -10 in the night and 0 during the day at the moment
[14:18:52] <robin_sz> can someone check a domain for me?
[14:18:55] <Imperator_> yeaturday I was out with the bike, after an hour my bottle was frozen :-)
[14:19:10] <robin_sz> sounds painful
[14:19:11] <Imperator_> maybe robin
[14:19:11] <alex_joni> sure robin
[14:19:17] <robin_sz> http://www.smallbore.info
[14:19:22] <robin_sz> does that work?
[14:19:34] <alex_joni> works here
[14:19:35] <Imperator_> jep
[14:19:37] <robin_sz> ta.
[14:19:51] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... I will definitely need to write a php script to use the ttf font -> generate a gif based on the name, and desired sample text.
[14:19:52] <alex_joni> Smallbore aims to be the leading site for information relating to all branches of target shooting with smallbore rifle and pistol. Much of the information will be of use to users of air weapons too.
[14:20:16] <robin_sz> yeah, thats the one .. just wanted to be sure the DNS worked outside of my house :)
[14:20:44] <alex_joni> alpha: how does this look? http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/emails/alex_joni@yahoo.com.png
[14:22:31] <A-L-P-H-A> nice clean font.
[14:22:32] <A-L-P-H-A> I like it.
[14:22:41] <alex_joni> give me a moment
[14:22:45] <alex_joni> I'll paste you the php
[14:24:09] <alex_joni> got it?
[14:24:33] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah
[14:24:35] <A-L-P-H-A> got it.
[14:24:54] <alex_joni> this creates an image inside emails/
[14:25:10] <alex_joni> and outputs the <img src=emails/...> to the place where called
[14:25:28] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah... I'm looking where you define the font type.
[14:26:12] <A-L-P-H-A> my purpose was to create a font folder gallery. :)
[14:26:44] <alex_joni> I didn't.. :D
[14:26:49] <alex_joni> define the font
[14:27:04] <alex_joni> but I suppose imagestring accepts different fonts...
[14:29:14] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah. that's cool. I can figure it out from the php.net manual.
[14:29:24] <alex_joni> robin_sz: one question,
[14:29:36] <alex_joni> why do I keep getting diff-pages?
[14:29:39] <alex_joni> is that default?
[14:29:43] <robin_sz> I dunno ..
[14:29:54] <robin_sz> do you keep clicking on diff?
[14:30:01] <alex_joni> nope
[14:30:04] <alex_joni> default pages
[14:30:08] <alex_joni> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EmcKnowledgeBase
[14:30:10] <robin_sz> give me an example of what you click to get a diff
[14:30:22] <alex_joni> I didn't click anything
[14:30:28] <alex_joni> I opened the above URL
[14:30:30] <robin_sz> yes
[14:30:35] <robin_sz> is that a diff for you?
[14:30:39] <robin_sz> not for me
[14:30:42] <alex_joni> Difference (from prior major revision) (author diff)
[14:30:43] <alex_joni> Added: 28a29
[14:30:43] <alex_joni> :Case Studies - machines running EMC
[14:30:50] <alex_joni> that's at the top of the page
[14:30:50] <robin_sz> weird
[14:31:27] <robin_sz> have you set Show differences on all pages in your preferences?
[14:31:28] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... font gallery, with it's md5 hash dumped to a database, filtering out dupes, creating a png image of sample text for preview. :)
[14:31:45] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is checking
[14:31:57] <A-L-P-H-A> I think that would be a nice little program to write up in a bit.
[14:31:57] <alex_joni> yup
[14:32:00] <alex_joni> it was set
[14:32:02] <alex_joni> :)
[14:32:04] <robin_sz> that explains it
[14:32:09] <A-L-P-H-A> after this metal bonding agent cures. :) another 1.5 hours... :)
[14:32:10] <alex_joni> alpha: hope it helped
[14:32:24] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, it will, when I need to create a png file. :)
[14:32:32] <alex_joni> ;)
[14:32:47] <alex_joni> I used the script all over the site, not to place e-mail addresses
[14:32:53] <alex_joni> to keep spam down
[14:33:09] <alex_joni> now that I think of it, the name of the png's needs to be changed too ;)
[14:33:23] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, heard of ORC? :) hehe. but really, the bot won't get to it anyways.
[14:33:41] <A-L-P-H-A> what probably would be good, is an captcha to actually view the email instead.
[14:33:45] <alex_joni> sounds warcraft like ;)
[14:33:54] <A-L-P-H-A> OCR. :)
[14:33:58] <alex_joni> :P
[14:34:11] <alex_joni> don't think a lot of bots use OCR ;)
[14:34:12] <A-L-P-H-A> "you want to view this email? What's this image displaying?" before the server displays the actual email.
[14:34:20] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't think any.
[14:34:27] <alex_joni> some do
[14:34:34] <alex_joni> but very few
[14:34:38] <alex_joni> hey rayh
[14:34:40] <A-L-P-H-A> highly doubt it... it'd easier for them to just go to the next site.
[14:34:54] <rayh> Hi Alex, A-L
[14:34:58] <A-L-P-H-A> unless, they are specifically targeting that one particular site. Which wouldn't be that hard then.
[14:35:15] <A-L-P-H-A> hi rayh, aka Mr. Spam Assassin assigned spammer. :)
[14:35:45] <rayh> I can't believe how much "list" mail I loose.
[14:35:46] <A-L-P-H-A> heh... bulk of your emails are tagged by spam assassin as spam.
[14:36:08] <A-L-P-H-A> you're on some RBL.
[14:36:24] <rayh> Yep. My ISP installed a Baracuda recently -- ate nearly everything.
[14:38:10] <alex_joni> rayh: how's the weather over there ?
[14:38:17] <rayh> They must have had to buy garbage bags in bulk just to haul out the junk bits.<g>
[14:38:42] <rayh> Nice this last week. Well above freezing. +10-15 some days.
[14:38:52] <alex_joni> we had -19 last night ;)
[14:38:53] <rayh> Snow is retreating
[14:38:59] <alex_joni> but nice and sunny
[14:39:09] <rayh> Ouch. That is a bit harsh.
[14:39:17] <alex_joni> it's ok ;)
[14:39:23] <alex_joni> still C... <g>
[14:39:39] <rayh> I know it keeps some of the riff-raff out.
[14:40:27] <alex_joni> I really will miss SuSE ;)
[14:40:50] <alex_joni> seems a lot of changes have happened since Novell took it over
[14:40:55] <les> hi ray
[14:41:51] <les> talked to buddy on the phone and he apreciated your help
[14:41:52] <rayh> Hi Les. Is the Ice gone?
[14:42:06] <les> ice is gone
[14:42:16] <les> sunny...hi 60
[14:42:18] <rayh> alex_joni: What kind of changes?
[14:42:36] <rayh> les: Must feel like spring.
[14:42:45] <les> yup
[14:42:55] <les> this is my one day off
[14:43:02] <rayh> Hey I'm glad that buddy got his machine running.
[14:43:09] <rayh> Proves motenc can do it.
[14:43:10] <alex_joni> rayh: first (www.suse.com is gone)
[14:43:24] <alex_joni> seems there is no personal version any more
[14:43:32] <les> I think this is the first emc/motenc up and running?
[14:43:32] <alex_joni> only suse professional
[14:43:52] <alex_joni> and the novell line
[14:44:20] <rayh> And the documents and drivers and all are more difficult to access.
[14:44:34] <alex_joni> don't see any download link anymore
[14:44:55] <alex_joni> I miss the HW and SW databases
[14:45:08] <rayh> I found something when I was running novel 9.1 but it was not open like SuSE had been.
[14:45:24] <alex_joni> it won't be...
[14:45:32] <alex_joni> so I guess I'll go away ;)
[14:45:37] <alex_joni> I'll change to deb
[14:45:49] <rayh> Ah.
[14:45:59] <Alpha1125> Alpha1125 is now known as A-L-P-H-A
[14:46:14] <rayh> Deb and the little ones may be the last holdouts.
[14:46:37] <alex_joni> it's sad
[14:46:48] <alex_joni> at least they released YAST under GPL
[14:46:50] <alex_joni> some time ago
[14:46:58] <A-L-P-H-A> Anyone from Canada [Toronto] that uses emc?
[14:47:08] <alex_joni> maybe others will integrate it into their distro
[14:47:12] <rayh> Perhaps the hardware guys that contributed to SuSE will work with Deb.
[14:47:39] <rayh> I know a couple guys out in the west of Canada that use it.
[14:49:07] <rayh> The KnowledgeBase is growing.
[14:49:15] <A-L-P-H-A> West of Canada? You mean Western Canada? or like the pacific?
[14:50:06] <rayh> Right. BC and Calgary if memory still serves.
[14:52:41] <alex_joni> rayh: growing nicely
[14:53:22] <rayh> This is one week. It should be great in a few months.
[14:53:54] <alex_joni> robin: is there a way to generate an automatic sitemap?
[14:56:20] <rayh> Oh. That would be nice.
[14:57:26] <alex_joni> has anybody used HURD?
[14:58:17] <rayh> Never hurd of it.
[14:58:33] <alex_joni> it's intended to be a replacement for the linux kernel
[14:58:39] <alex_joni> and other unix kernels
[14:58:44] <alex_joni> debian seems to support it
[14:58:57] <alex_joni> http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/
[15:00:27] <robin_sz> moooooo
[15:00:43] <alex_joni> hey jmk
[15:01:00] <alex_joni> robin: got the mad cows desease?
[15:01:04] <rayh> Ah. I see hurd is a GNU project. I knew that Stallings did not like Torvalds.
[15:01:14] <robin_sz> alex_joni: HURD!
[15:01:14] <rayh> Not our steve.
[15:01:19] <robin_sz> hurd of cows?
[15:01:22] <jmkasunich> hi all
[15:01:35] <alex_joni> hoooooord
[15:01:38] <rayh> Oops sorry Stallman.
[15:01:49] <rayh> Hi John.
[15:02:06] <jmkasunich> been busy haulin' stuff the last three days
[15:02:13] <rayh> You are right. I can't make backlash fail at Sherline speeds.
[15:02:19] <jmkasunich> got 12 motors and a bunch of other stuff
[15:02:29] <jmkasunich> I hope not, we tested it on a Sherline
[15:02:37] <alex_joni> jmk: I thought about two things we need to discuss today ;)
[15:02:47] <rayh> Perhaps we should have int fest at John's place.<g>
[15:02:59] <jmkasunich> my basement is to small
[15:03:03] <robin_sz> alex_joni: let me guess, beer and girls?
[15:03:12] <jmkasunich> go ahead alex
[15:03:40] <alex_joni> robin: close
[15:03:53] <rayh> * rayh watches for the starting topics.
[15:03:55] <alex_joni> hmmm.. seems I can't remember what the second one was
[15:04:03] <alex_joni> the first one would be classicladder
[15:04:49] <robin_sz> * robin_sz runs off screaming
[15:05:16] <alex_joni> * alex_joni grabs robin back to the torture place
[15:05:58] <jmkasunich> what about classicladder.... we already know we want it
[15:06:06] <jmkasunich> how to hook it in?
[15:06:21] <alex_joni> I agree on that
[15:06:31] <alex_joni> the main thing... how does it hook in
[15:06:41] <alex_joni> I talked to paul about it ;)
[15:06:48] <jmkasunich> my choice would be to make a HAL wrapper for it
[15:06:51] <alex_joni> guess what :P
[15:06:54] <jmkasunich> I expect Paul does not agree
[15:07:05] <alex_joni> ;)
[15:07:25] <alex_joni> I am somewhere between the two solutions
[15:07:38] <alex_joni> I agree classicladder gains a lot from hal-hardware support
[15:07:53] <alex_joni> paul's idea is to connect classicladder to EMC through NML
[15:08:09] <alex_joni> that way you can keep the system distributed
[15:08:41] <les> woops am I still here
[15:08:48] <les> dsl dropped out
[15:09:00] <alex_joni> les: yes
[15:09:10] <jmkasunich> but you lose any chance of doing realtime ladder stuff
[15:09:14] <jmkasunich> NML is SLO
[15:09:19] <rayh> I see both an NML in/out and a shmem in/out
[15:09:28] <alex_joni> it's not RT
[15:09:41] <alex_joni> I agree
[15:09:41] <alex_joni> but the ladder can run at RT
[15:10:02] <jmkasunich> a RT ladder that is forced to use non-RT paths for I/O is silly
[15:10:06] <alex_joni> I got a mail today from Marc Le Dourain
[15:10:17] <jmkasunich> was wondering if he'd ever reply
[15:10:23] <alex_joni> Douarain
[15:10:32] <alex_joni> he did finally
[15:10:45] <alex_joni> I forwarded you the mail
[15:11:09] <rayh> non-rt paths can be of value if the ladder is running on a remote PC.
[15:11:43] <robin_sz> to me adding the extra complication of clasic ladder to emc is questionable ... adding through the unholy mess that is NML is crazy ..
[15:12:15] <jmkasunich> robin_sz: ladder is the most accessible way to provide configurability to folks who don't write C
[15:12:28] <jmkasunich> classicladder is the easiest way to get ladder
[15:12:38] <jmkasunich> I agree 110% about using NML tho
[15:12:48] <wb9mjn> I can even write relay ladder logic...hi...
[15:12:55] <robin_sz> if it is an add on option, fine
[15:13:38] <rayh> I see it a bit like "mini. Use it if you like.
[15:13:57] <jmkasunich> the way I see it, the EMC core exports HAL pins... the integrator can either connect them directly to IO drivers, or connect them to HAL pins exported by classicladder and do PLC stuff with them, then route them to the IO
[15:14:06] <robin_sz> as standard though, it will just be another barrier that users have to pass .. we already have far too man of those
[15:14:20] <robin_sz> * robin_sz ndos
[15:14:23] <robin_sz> sounds sane
[15:14:43] <rayh> IMHO we need to split users and machine integrators.
[15:15:26] <jmkasunich> rayh: yes, but
[15:15:27] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[15:15:34] <rayh> Right now when a newbee gets motion, after a bit he wants a button.
[15:15:44] <jmkasunich> at the machine shop level, those groups are separate
[15:15:47] <rayh> Then a switch.
[15:16:00] <jmkasunich> at the hobbiest level, they are often the same person
[15:16:29] <rayh> Since wb9min knows ladder we can put him in charge of ladder help.
[15:16:58] <rayh> Oh that's a j sorry.
[15:18:38] <alex_joni> I agree on ladder using hal for pins
[15:19:33] <alex_joni> wish paul was in here to sustain his point
[15:19:48] <robin_sz> so if I wanted, say, an output that stayed on for 20 seconds after the last axis stopped moving ..
[15:20:07] <robin_sz> I could just pick it up as axis movement and trigger a timer in ladder
[15:20:54] <jmkasunich> right
[15:21:06] <robin_sz> ok, I sort of get it.
[15:21:17] <robin_sz> so say a toolchanger
[15:21:32] <robin_sz> that could be implemeted in ladder
[15:22:48] <alex_joni> yup
[15:22:56] <rayh> Exactly
[15:22:57] <alex_joni> and it tells emc tool loaded
[15:23:01] <alex_joni> or tool 5 loaded
[15:23:07] <robin_sz> ok, that sounds sane enough
[15:23:35] <alex_joni> ok, then...
[15:23:42] <alex_joni> classicladder needs to see hal pins
[15:23:57] <rayh> I'm with John that there needs to be a HAL connection for a single PC version.
[15:24:01] <alex_joni> but it needs to define some of its own.. right?
[15:24:12] <rayh> Looking at the tool change thing though...
[15:24:17] <alex_joni> we can have cl connect to hal even on a second PC
[15:24:21] <alex_joni> different HAL
[15:24:35] <A-L-P-H-A> you know... windows runs pretty fast, for being an installation that's only 10hrs old.
[15:24:40] <rayh> there are NML commands generated that could spin the tool hive before the tool change command is issued.
[15:24:55] <robin_sz> is there a click-and-drool gui for setting up classicladder?
[15:25:19] <alex_joni> robin: yes
[15:25:32] <robin_sz> rayh: no there arent, if the tool hive is only connected to the ladder logic and not emc
[15:26:13] <alex_joni> hello steve
[15:26:25] <thalx> good morning, steve.
[15:26:38] <SteveStallings> good morning all
[15:27:03] <rayh> robin_sz: You are speaking of a multi pc solution.
[15:27:23] <robin_sz> rayh: even a sinlge pc solution
[15:27:39] <rayh> If it is the HAL that does the work we have to create a hal pin that responds to the pre tool command.
[15:27:41] <alex_joni> think he was speaking of a single PC solution
[15:27:57] <alex_joni> rayh: yes
[15:28:16] <jmkasunich> rayh: exactly - hooks into the HAL for things like pre-tool
[15:28:33] <rayh> Okay but that only works for a single PC solution.
[15:28:34] <alex_joni> but generic hooks
[15:28:42] <jmkasunich> BTW, in the back of my mind I have an idea for pc-to-pc HAL connections
[15:29:15] <jmkasunich> a HAL component that is loaded in each PC, and has the same pins in each PC... in one, they are inputs, in the other, they are outputs
[15:29:16] <rayh> Nyquist scheduling?
[15:29:25] <robin_sz> rayh: the emc core and hence NML will have no clue as to how or whre the toolhive is hooked up, only classic ladder will have access to that hardware
[15:30:18] <rayh> For a multiple PC solution the IO PC would use the same HAL rt layer to pull and watch it's pins.
[15:30:38] <rayh> It is simply a second instance of the same thing.
[15:30:51] <rayh> No you don't get rt between the two.
[15:31:43] <rayh> But most of the hundred or so printed pages of a machine ladder don't require rt.
[15:32:14] <robin_sz> its unlikely that many do at all
[15:32:24] <alex_joni> you need RT if you hook your HW-limit switches through CL
[15:32:49] <rayh> Only limits, homes, probes and laser start.
[15:33:35] <alex_joni> IF you want to connect them through CL
[15:33:46] <jmkasunich> HAL doesn't distingush between RT and user space pins
[15:33:54] <jmkasunich> a user component can read a RT pin
[15:34:00] <jmkasunich> and write results to another RT pin
[15:34:13] <jmkasunich> but of course those results don't happen in realtime
[15:34:48] <jmkasunich> that wasn't clear - I shouldn't have said "RT pin"
[15:34:53] <jmkasunich> a RT module can write a pin
[15:35:02] <jmkasunich> another RT module can read it and send it to hardware
[15:35:06] <jmkasunich> that is a RT path
[15:35:22] <jmkasunich> but you could also have a non-RT module read the pin and do something with it
[15:35:29] <jmkasunich> then write it to another pin
[15:35:40] <jmkasunich> where a RT module picks it up and writes it to hardware
[15:35:51] <jmkasunich> that path is non-RT because there is a non-rt module involved
[15:35:59] <jmkasunich> but HAL doesn't care
[15:37:14] <robin_sz> * robin_sz gets bored with his G2002
[15:37:33] <alex_joni> toss it over here
[15:37:38] <rayh> I don't see any problem with any of John's thinking on that level.
[15:38:01] <alex_joni> the question is:
[15:38:14] <alex_joni> what if somebody wants CL on a different PC than emc
[15:38:19] <rayh> What I think I'm asking for is another way in to classicladder.
[15:38:28] <rayh> An addition to what John is thinking.
[15:38:33] <alex_joni> should we provide NML paths to CL?
[15:38:52] <rayh> Yes. I would think that is essential.
[15:39:00] <alex_joni> CL output to hardware should be through HAL, that's decided
[15:39:07] <rayh> It might never be used in a single PC version.
[15:39:11] <alex_joni> and if you want you can use it only like that
[15:39:33] <alex_joni> set things in CL up so that it reads hal pins, and outputs hal pins
[15:39:36] <alex_joni> and done
[15:39:46] <alex_joni> or set things up in CL to connect to a emcsvr
[15:39:53] <alex_joni> and get stuff through NML
[15:39:58] <rayh> and?
[15:40:01] <alex_joni> response also through NML
[15:40:07] <alex_joni> and output through a local HAL
[15:40:28] <alex_joni> or even direct output to a port or comedy (that CL currently supports)
[15:40:45] <rayh> Yes.
[15:41:02] <jmkasunich> I can see the merit in most of that
[15:41:13] <rayh> And for those who do not like ladder there is grafcet
[15:41:25] <jmkasunich> but - how do you translate NML into something classicladder can access?
[15:41:37] <jmkasunich> classicladder deals in bits and ints, not messages
[15:42:18] <rayh> Yes we would need a translation process.
[15:42:30] <alex_joni> we'll figure that out later
[15:42:36] <alex_joni> when there's need for it
[15:42:49] <rayh> I'm satisfied with that solution to the nml issue.
[15:43:17] <alex_joni> ok, then
[15:43:33] <alex_joni> we move cl into the emc2 cvs at sf?
[15:43:50] <robin_sz> do we have to?
[15:44:05] <robin_sz> surely CL is already a maintained project
[15:44:21] <robin_sz> all we need is a CL to EMC adaptor
[15:44:25] <alex_joni> but not at SF
[15:44:34] <robin_sz> so?
[15:44:36] <rayh> We tried the move once and cl has moved far beyond what we have there.
[15:44:38] <robin_sz> it has a dev team?
[15:44:48] <robin_sz> it has maintainers?
[15:44:57] <robin_sz> and a download site?
[15:45:03] <rayh> CL is a sf project.
[15:45:09] <alex_joni> it is?
[15:45:23] <alex_joni> I wasn't aware that it is
[15:45:24] <robin_sz> surely an adaptor is all that is needed ... a CL/EMC interface ...
[15:45:36] <alex_joni> but it is...
[15:45:53] <alex_joni> more correct a CL/HAL interface
[15:46:01] <robin_sz> 'k
[15:46:39] <robin_sz> anyway .. Id caution AGAINST copying a release of CL into EMC, unless you want to take on the bug tracking and maint of that too
[15:46:55] <rayh> Yep. That makes a mess of things.
[15:46:56] <alex_joni> we have one developer who knows a lot about cl ;)
[15:47:17] <robin_sz> just have people install CL in the normal way, perhaps with -DHAL_INTERFACE or whatever during build time
[15:47:22] <rayh> Might be able to add one of our developers there and make the connector in their stuff.
[15:48:12] <alex_joni> v0.6.6 (10 November 2003) - RTAI support. Patch send by Paul Corner. Thanks to him for that nice work.
[15:48:29] <alex_joni> classicladder/HISTORY ;)
[15:48:51] <rayh> The HAL connector is going to look a lot like CL's rt stuff.
[15:49:23] <rayh> The NML connector, when it happens is going to look a lot like a comedi link.
[15:49:42] <alex_joni> #ifdef COMEDI_SUPPORT will be #ifdef HAL_SUPPORT
[15:51:34] <robin_sz> COMEDY_SUPPORT would be more appropriate
[15:51:56] <alex_joni> that's taken out of the source ;)
[15:51:58] <alex_joni> COMEDI :P
[15:54:45] <robin_sz> * robin_sz screams and jumps up and down on his Rabbit
[15:54:59] <jmkasunich> sorry guys, but I'm an hour late starting on some errands... gotta go, back in a bit
[15:55:03] <alex_joni> poor wabbit
[15:55:15] <alex_joni> no problem john
[15:55:22] <robin_sz> who was it on here who had developed stuff on the Rabbit?
[15:55:32] <jmkasunich> good discussion today, wish I didn't have to leave
[15:55:32] <alex_joni> I think the second issue was backlash.. but I think that's pretty clear
[15:55:47] <alex_joni> maybe we'll continue it later
[15:56:16] <robin_sz> one thing that occurred to me a while ago
[15:56:18] <rayh> jmkasunich: Are you in agreement with where this c
[15:56:27] <rayh> CL discussion is?
[15:56:34] <robin_sz> relaxing the following error trigger in G0 moves
[15:56:46] <rayh> * rayh can't type worth a ...
[15:57:29] <alex_joni> robin: having two ferrors?
[15:57:37] <alex_joni> one for G0, one for coordinated motion?
[15:58:04] <rayh> We can build a ramp based on speed now.
[15:59:08] <rayh> But I don't think that we can put in a break point like many CNCs do.
[16:02:44] <robin_sz> hmmm
[16:03:48] <robin_sz> I think possibly two following errors would be a good thing . or maybe G0_FERROR_MULTIPLIER=4
[16:04:07] <robin_sz> 4 times the amount of ferror is possible under g0
[16:05:53] <rayh> Would it confuse folk if they ran f="the value of max velocity"
[16:06:15] <alex_joni> what do you mean ray?
[16:06:48] <rayh> There would be a difference if ferror between g0 and g1 f=max.
[16:07:01] <rayh> in
[16:07:35] <alex_joni> yes
[16:07:38] <robin_sz> almost all CNCs have a maximum feed speed
[16:07:42] <SteveStallings> but it might be OK since running full speed in G1 the user expects accuracy but not in G0
[16:07:48] <robin_sz> which is LESS than maximum traverse speed
[16:07:49] <alex_joni> exactly
[16:08:51] <alex_joni> hmm.. I just remembered smthg
[16:08:54] <alex_joni> too bad jmk is away
[16:09:08] <alex_joni> http://membres.lycos.fr/mavati/classicladder/io_conf_snapshot.png
[16:09:24] <alex_joni> what if hal-pins would be accessible through /dev/hal ?
[16:10:01] <rayh> G0_FERROR_MULTIPLIER=1 could be default.
[16:10:16] <alex_joni> and could be missing from the ini
[16:13:45] <rayh> Perhaps FERROR = 1.00
[16:13:45] <rayh> FERROR_BREAKPOINT = "%Max" "value"
[16:13:45] <rayh> MIN_FERROR = .01
[16:14:08] <rayh> That would create two ramps.
[16:16:22] <SteveStallings> not up to speed here, what are you trying to accomplish? I forget what MIN_FERROR does
[16:16:37] <robin_sz> not sure
[16:16:52] <rayh> Sets the error point for lag at very low feedrates
[16:17:00] <robin_sz> i just suggested that the following error might be relaxed in G0 compared to G1 moves
[16:17:12] <robin_sz> since then I sort lost the plot in a fog of complication
[16:17:13] <alex_joni> min_ferror is the ferror for speed
[16:17:50] <rayh> Ferror and min_ferror make a plot of following error vs speed.
[16:18:27] <rayh> At max_vel the following error is FERROR.
[16:18:42] <rayh> At zero speed it is MIN+FERROR.
[16:18:55] <robin_sz> barking
[16:19:13] <rayh> oops MIN_FERROR
[16:19:30] <alex_joni> so it's a ramp
[16:19:38] <alex_joni> at zero speed MIN_FERROR
[16:19:42] <rayh> Right.
[16:19:44] <alex_joni> at highest speed FERROR
[16:20:16] <alex_joni> anywhere in between (say at 50%) it is is 50% between MIN_FERROR and FERROR
[16:20:17] <SteveStallings> and EMC will fault if sensed error lies above the ramp value?
[16:20:30] <robin_sz> probably
[16:20:31] <rayh> Exactly
[16:21:13] <rayh> I think...
[16:26:38] <robin_sz> short visit ...
[16:30:59] <les> was away but read the ferror stuff
[16:33:06] <les> I have been setting that very tight...increase feed override 25% and it will start estopping
[16:33:53] <les> usually in G00
[16:34:10] <robin_sz> I think not caring much about ferror on G0 is the right thng to do ... so long as its simple to the integrator
[16:34:32] <robin_sz> most commercial machines have higher G0 than G1 speeds
[16:35:23] <les> It would be a good feature....but for me G0 is where I need tight ferror the most though
[16:35:30] <SteveStallings> I like Ray's ramp approach, except I think the low end of the ramp should be defined by an independent variable, not MIN_FERROR
[16:35:30] <robin_sz> why?
[16:35:32] <les> would be nice to have the option
[16:35:44] <les> crashes
[16:36:33] <les> it's working well too....I have had a few crashes and it estoped and saved the machine from damage
[16:37:42] <les> The use of tool length offsets and G10 seem to promote bad moves!
[16:38:33] <les> Particularly if I try to start in the middle of a program
[16:39:25] <les> what I did to help that was to do 9 G10 commands at each tool change
[16:40:14] <les> Anyway it's nice to have Ferror actually work now
[16:40:30] <les> Since it was fixed last fall
[16:41:59] <les> On servo machines actual ferror vs speed is prob a second order function
[16:42:20] <SteveStallings> any progress on the new motion planner testing?
[16:43:21] <les> No unfortunately Steve.... The machine in in pretty much contiuous production till the end of this month
[16:43:37] <les> But looking forward to testing
[16:43:44] <SteveStallings> must be nice to have real customers 8-)
[16:44:22] <les> I am getting a good eduction on how well my design holds up under that use
[16:44:34] <les> no big problems so far
[16:45:04] <les> One thing...a collet lasts only 2 weeks!
[16:45:20] <les> but that's hundreds of tool changes
[16:45:38] <les> and it's not much money so no problem
[16:46:35] <SteveStallings> are you using the high dollar collet stuff, or normal hand held router stuff?
[16:47:21] <les> Just a Porter Cable 3 1/4 hp motor...and it's really not up to the task
[16:47:55] <les> Right now spindle HP is directly related to income
[16:48:21] <les> twice the kW, twice the gross
[16:48:22] <SteveStallings> OK, I just got through reading an article about high speed collet systems. Nasty issues. Spindle diameter expands at speed, collet chatters and/or rides up into spindle.
[16:48:39] <les> So I am hunting for a Perske or Colombo
[16:49:44] <les> yes....they seem to have the first problems with the carbide shanks just gradually lapping the inside
[16:50:07] <les> after a certain point they just don't hold
[16:50:33] <SteveStallings> hope that doesn't get too exciting 8-)
[16:50:48] <les> I need some kind of procedure to test the collet before it slips though
[16:51:15] <les> I does get exciting
[16:51:32] <les> carbide shards flying out everywhere
[16:51:41] <les> fire
[16:51:47] <les> It's bad
[16:51:51] <robin_sz> presumably a proper collet changer is more immune to this
[16:52:00] <les> yes I think so
[16:52:12] <robin_sz> taper and a ball-puller
[16:52:27] <les> the better ones are supposed to last 500 hrs or so
[16:52:59] <les> or so I have read
[16:53:12] <robin_sz> i guess yo just factor it into the running costs
[16:53:18] <les> I'm getting less than 100
[16:53:29] <robin_sz> 2 dollars / hour for collets/spindle
[16:53:39] <les> oh yeah, it's not a cost factor at all
[16:54:01] <les> It's just that I don't really know when it's time to change it
[16:54:19] <robin_sz> thats easy
[16:54:24] <robin_sz> change it just before it fails
[16:54:28] <les> haha
[16:54:59] <les> I will test to see if it has some measurable parameter
[16:55:09] <les> runout?
[16:55:16] <robin_sz> you enginneer you
[16:55:28] <les> heh
[16:55:32] <robin_sz> remember . this is production, neot research :)
[16:55:40] <robin_sz> bin em every 75hours
[16:55:42] <les> oh.
[16:56:07] <les> yeah 75 sounds about right
[16:56:35] <les> that's about twenty five cents an hour or so
[16:56:45] <SteveStallings> use statistical methods to avoid most of the problem, if most failures happen around 100 hours, just replace them at 80 or whatever point minimizes loss from cost of new vs. cost of crash
[16:57:27] <robin_sz> my mate uses similar statistical methods on the dimmer production
[16:57:46] <les> yes I had best be conservative...cost of crash could be hundreds to thousands
[16:58:31] <les> But prob the lower figure....I think one could tear the motor right off without hurting the machine
[16:58:47] <robin_sz> we needed to figure out how much the staff needed to be suprvised .. simple statistics helped a lot .. basically, 100% of them are slackers who will stop work the moment your back is turned, thus they need to be supervised 100% of the time .. thats applied stats that is.
[16:58:48] <SteveStallings> sell the used collets on eBay [very evil 8-) grin]
[16:59:09] <les> haha
[16:59:36] <danfalck> les:what collets are you using right now? stock PC?
[16:59:57] <les> yes the notorius pc collets
[17:00:20] <les> I really need a better spindle.
[17:00:32] <danfalck> I wonder if you could tear apart the spindle and retrofit w/ Erickson ER collets?
[17:01:00] <les> yes...I think I could
[17:01:04] <les> good idea
[17:01:15] <danfalck> they might fit
[17:01:37] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=12577&item=3871719220&rd=1
[17:01:42] <robin_sz> buy that, job done
[17:01:50] <les> it would add some length....but might work fine if balanced
[17:01:55] <les> looking...
[17:02:24] <danfalck> find a straight shank ER adapter and press it into the center of the rotor
[17:03:12] <danfalck> just bore out the rotor and get rid of the old collet nose
[17:03:36] <danfalck> might be hard to balance that way though
[17:03:54] <robin_sz> go on les, bid 5k5 ... cheap :)
[17:04:08] <les> that would be cheap
[17:04:21] <robin_sz> its worth that for the spindles
[17:05:00] <les> There are colombo spindles still at NEMI on ebay
[17:05:07] <les> 12 hp
[17:05:25] <les> but I would have to wire new electrics in the shop for that
[17:05:44] <robin_sz> but it would double your gross
[17:06:18] <les> prob triple
[17:06:37] <les> until one reaches a termal limit and burns up the work
[17:06:43] <les> thermal
[17:07:17] <les> wonder how much a 12 hp inverter costs
[17:07:34] <les> kilobuck?
[17:07:59] <les> or 0,7 kiloeuro?
[17:08:05] <robin_sz> single to 3 phase?
[17:08:29] <robin_sz> not sure they do 12hp single phase VFD's
[17:08:37] <les> I guess...no point in running the phase convrter too
[17:08:45] <les> might not
[17:08:51] <robin_sz> you have 3 pahse?
[17:09:17] <les> yes...I can start about 10 hp 3 phase
[17:09:27] <les> rotary converter
[17:09:35] <robin_sz> euww
[17:09:41] <robin_sz> so not real 3 phase then
[17:10:11] <les> not the good stuff from the power company
[17:10:15] <robin_sz> dang
[17:10:21] <robin_sz> thats limiting
[17:10:36] <robin_sz> nice 30kva diesel set :)
[17:10:40] <les> but it's balanced nicely and makes good power
[17:10:58] <les> idler is a 11.5 hp motor
[17:11:14] <robin_sz> is it driven by an electric motor? or steam? .. some use oxen and a giant windlas dont they?
[17:11:28] <les> lots of run caps
[17:11:38] <les> yes it's oxen powered
[17:11:57] <robin_sz> thats fairly standard for rotary convertors
[17:12:36] <les> oh well perhaps if the good orders keep coming it's time to move to an industrial area
[17:12:47] <robin_sz> euuw.
[17:12:55] <les> and drive 50 miles to and from work (again)
[17:13:01] <robin_sz> no way
[17:13:18] <les> I would really REALLY hate to move that machine
[17:14:31] <rayh> les: Dave got a pretty nice commercial phase converter recently. Might ask what it cost.
[17:14:54] <les> I built mine
[17:15:22] <robin_sz> 12hp is probably close to the limit i guess on single phase
[17:15:28] <les> soft starts a big 3 phase idler
[17:15:31] <les> yes
[17:15:47] <robin_sz> above that, a diesel genset is a failry economical alternative
[17:15:57] <robin_sz> if you have space
[17:16:33] <les> about 100-150 amps is the limit for regular power
[17:16:39] <robin_sz> better that than the additional overheasds of a factory 50 miles away and travelling
[17:16:49] <SteveStallings> naw, large converters are common, friend runs a 20 HP turret lathe on a converter all the time from 200 amp residential service
[17:17:44] <les> well 100 *240= about what....30 hp?
[17:18:15] <SteveStallings> sounds about right
[17:18:55] <les> my converter runs about 500 w no load
[17:19:03] <rayh> I service a shop that starts 5 100hp plus converters from 800 amp 240.
[17:19:14] <les> but BIG VA
[17:19:32] <les> VA doesn't make the electric meter turn though
[17:20:04] <les> The idler I use is a big Baldor with 1.5 inch diam shaft
[17:20:48] <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
[17:21:50] <les> A big couple ohm power resistor is shorted out after a certain back emf with contactors
[17:22:14] <les> it glows red at powerup
[17:22:21] <les> but is made for that
[17:24:08] <les> It has worked ok...once a faulty start cap blew up
[17:24:15] <les> it's like a bomb
[17:26:44] <les> anyway NEMI on ebay had plenty of 3, 5, and 7 hp Colombo spindles a few months ago
[17:26:47] <les> new
[17:26:55] <les> for about $800
[17:26:55] <robin_sz> did you buy one?
[17:27:13] <les> I could kick myself for not grabbing one
[17:27:17] <robin_sz> well,
[17:27:27] <robin_sz> we did try and convince you :)
[17:27:34] <les> yup
[17:27:47] <les> had a cash flow problem then...
[17:28:02] <les> but should have just borrowed from savings
[17:28:49] <les> I guess small business is like that
[17:29:02] <les> a few months of good income
[17:29:12] <les> a few months of zero income
[17:29:13] <les> haha
[17:29:26] <robin_sz> sometimes you have to spend a little to bring in a lot
[17:29:47] <les> yeah
[17:29:54] <robin_sz> now you have the order, you cant afford the downtime to fit it :)
[17:30:02] <les> I didn't really need hp for the signs
[17:30:15] <les> yep in a ctch 22
[17:30:33] <les> but will get a break at the end of this month
[17:31:08] <les> then we will slowly continue to let the customer build an inventory for next year
[17:31:44] <les> That will prevent some of the panic when sales unexpectedly quadruple
[17:32:21] <robin_sz> no .. that will make it worse
[17:32:28] <les> how so?
[17:32:38] <robin_sz> well, assume they have no inventory
[17:32:45] <les> yes..
[17:32:47] <robin_sz> as sales rise, you have to match them
[17:32:59] <robin_sz> you get to slowly build your production
[17:33:07] <robin_sz> nice and smooth
[17:33:18] <robin_sz> now .. say they have an inventory
[17:33:28] <les> ahh
[17:33:35] <robin_sz> sales rise
[17:33:36] <les> run out and panic again
[17:33:45] <robin_sz> yes, but now when they runout
[17:33:56] <robin_sz> sales are double what you can supply
[17:34:07] <les> your'e right
[17:34:10] <robin_sz> as they have been able to make up the sshortfall from inventory for 3 months
[17:34:39] <robin_sz> now, if you could figure our how to keep some of the inventory
[17:35:08] <robin_sz> even if you just held it for them ...
[17:35:13] <robin_sz> you could at least track it
[17:35:37] <les> yeah cost of inventory is still pretty low...but rising
[17:35:59] <les> Good Idea...we both hold some inventory
[17:36:40] <les> Um what are you charging for your chartered accountancy fees these days?
[17:36:42] <les> haha
[17:36:56] <dave-e> this works well if the production time you use to build inventory is not taking away from other customers
[17:37:32] <les> Actually Dave, I looking forward to some serious DOWN time
[17:37:52] <les> After this schedule I am just about bouncing off the walls
[17:37:56] <dave-e> to do some FUN projects?
[17:38:31] <les> yes...Bridgeport/emc/motenc conversion
[17:38:39] <les> testing segmentqueue
[17:39:16] <les> No way can doing conversions be business justified
[17:39:20] <robin_sz> how about, playing some guitar, drinking fine wine, wandering in the woods and just chilling out?
[17:39:36] <robin_sz> or ...
[17:39:38] <les> So I have to condider it just playing
[17:39:53] <robin_sz> just beating this G2002 to death with hammers?
[17:40:14] <les> the rabbit powered thing?
[17:40:21] <robin_sz> yeah
[17:40:33] <robin_sz> I got the code with the EMC interp embedded
[17:40:37] <robin_sz> works fine
[17:40:48] <robin_sz> or worked fine
[17:41:03] <robin_sz> then stopped. its filled a byte up sor something
[17:41:12] <robin_sz> even re-flashing it doesnt restore it
[17:41:15] <les> Its a stepper controller right?
[17:41:19] <les> hmm uh oh
[17:41:23] <robin_sz> pulse gen yes
[17:43:34] <les> I will use stepper for the paint bot
[17:44:02] <les> But now I look at the numbers and wonder why I would want to paint at all
[17:44:07] <les> heh
[17:44:17] <robin_sz> but thats whatr got you the job
[17:44:27] <les> that's true
[17:45:34] <les> Well anyway no big deal as long as it can be cheaply and quickly automated
[17:46:03] <les> I did decide to use that $200 superPLC I was looking at
[17:46:09] <les> pretty powerful
[17:46:59] <les> does steppers, servos, analog, dio
[17:47:05] <robin_sz> coo
[17:47:10] <les> has power drivers
[17:47:11] <robin_sz> for 200 bucks ..
[17:47:33] <les> programs in basic
[17:47:43] <les> compiled basic
[17:48:12] <robin_sz> pretty easy for user integration
[17:48:19] <les> wonder if I can write code without semicolons
[17:48:34] <les> haven't touched basic in years
[17:49:05] <robin_sz> it sucks
[17:49:35] <robin_sz> right. im going off to try and sort this poxy rabbit processor out
[17:49:45] <les> yeah...I wrote a lot of dos stuff in it many years ago
[17:49:50] <robin_sz> yuck
[17:49:59] <les> k see you later
[17:50:11] <les> DAVE...still there?
[17:53:59] <les> guess not....well, i'll break for lunch
[18:00:37] <dave-e> hi les...i was off doing other things
[18:04:44] <dave-e> anyone know whos 'superPLC' les was talking about?
[18:06:46] <dave-e> ray off to lunch?
[18:07:14] <danfalck> hi dave
[18:07:57] <dave-e> hi dan
[18:08:10] <dave-e> so how is Portland
[18:08:17] <danfalck> ok. just rainy today
[18:08:26] <danfalck> which is okay. we need the rain
[18:08:28] <dave-e> got a skiff of snow here..but gone by now
[18:08:53] <danfalck> how's EMC retro coming along?
[18:09:33] <danfalck> got a phone call ...
[18:09:47] <dave-e> after I get the stg card back...it had channels 2-3 dead...it won't take long to get 3 axes up with limits and homing
[18:24:29] <rayh> dave-e: Hi.
[18:25:13] <dave-e> hi ray
[18:28:26] <dave-e> hmmm---the dave effect...I say hello and they go away ;-)
[18:31:58] <rayh> How much HP can your phase converter handle.
[18:32:40] <dave-e> 80 total 30 max start
[18:33:00] <dave-e> but I have to up the fuse ratings to do that
[18:33:30] <rayh> les was talking about his homebrew being limited to 20.
[18:33:56] <dave-e> 20 total or 20 starting?
[18:34:16] <rayh> I don't know.
[18:36:47] <rayh> I installed a 30 start 100 total the other day.
[18:37:35] <rayh> For a little sawmill.
[18:47:42] <SWPadnos> An I thought my 5 HP homebrew was cool :)
[18:49:37] <dave-e> I did a 5 hp homebrew first but it never balanced as well as the commercial
[18:51:28] <SWPadnos> Mine is within 5% (if I'm remembering the correct numbers), so it's not too bad.
[18:52:06] <dave-e> I never was able to get that close even with 5 uf steps
[18:52:37] <SWPadnos> I think I just lucked out - I'm only using a single 40uF or 35uF cap on each leg.
[18:52:53] <dave-e> never turn down luck!
[18:53:09] <SWPadnos> nope :)
[18:56:13] <dave-e> I'm going to bail...have a good one.
[18:56:33] <SWPadnos> see ya
[19:53:47] <jmkasunich> hi alex
[19:53:57] <alex_joni> hey john
[19:54:09] <alex_joni> I am modifying classicladder right now
[19:54:14] <jmkasunich> wow
[19:54:17] <alex_joni> but it's a bit tricky ;)
[19:54:28] <alex_joni> the config was thought for something else,
[19:54:41] <jmkasunich> it originally wasn't even a RT program
[19:54:41] <alex_joni> might be a little bit problematic to adapt it for hal
[19:54:45] <alex_joni> yeah
[19:54:48] <alex_joni> short question
[19:54:52] <jmkasunich> shoot
[19:54:55] <alex_joni> how should it connect to hal?
[19:55:01] <alex_joni> link to a hallib ?
[19:55:03] <robin_sz> BANG
[19:55:13] <alex_joni> which provides functions to access pins & such?
[19:55:21] <alex_joni> what's up robin?
[19:55:24] <jmkasunich> sorry robin, 0.22 won't reach that far
[19:55:35] <jmkasunich> I said "shoot", so he shot me
[19:55:45] <jmkasunich> yes, link to hallib
[19:55:50] <alex_joni> hal_lib.o
[19:55:53] <jmkasunich> yep
[19:56:03] <alex_joni> ok
[19:56:06] <jmkasunich> then call the export_pin, etc, functions
[19:56:19] <alex_joni> export?
[19:56:31] <alex_joni> I gave it some thoughts, and export is not really needed
[19:56:35] <jmkasunich> ?
[19:56:43] <alex_joni> cl doesn't need to export any pins
[19:56:48] <alex_joni> just connect to existing ones
[19:57:05] <jmkasunich> can't do that
[19:57:10] <alex_joni> (like this you can use emc&hal without cl if you don't want to)
[19:57:15] <alex_joni> why can't you do that?
[19:57:22] <jmkasunich> all HAL components export pins
[19:57:40] <alex_joni> hmmm
[19:57:45] <jmkasunich> then the user connects whichever pins he wants using signals
[19:57:58] <alex_joni> but...
[19:58:08] <alex_joni> if you look at the Config GUI for classicladder
[19:58:48] <alex_joni> http://membres.lycos.fr/mavati/classicladder/io_conf_snapshot.png
[19:59:10] <jmkasunich> looking
[19:59:10] <alex_joni> I would imagine something like Halmeter
[19:59:22] <alex_joni> select for Type: HAL based pins
[19:59:36] <alex_joni> and then you get a dropdown with current pins inside HAL
[20:00:43] <alex_joni> how does that sound?
[20:00:52] <jmkasunich> by using classicladder to connect directly to a HAL pin that belongs to emcmot, or stepgen, or whatever, you defeat the HAL pins/signals concept
[20:01:24] <alex_joni> why?
[20:01:41] <alex_joni> I think it's only a matter of explicit vs. implicit pin export
[20:01:58] <alex_joni> you keep CL's pins inside (no export) - my way
[20:01:59] <jmkasunich> if you draw a block diagram with several HAL components, each one is a distinct block, with pins at it's border, and signals connecting them
[20:02:15] <alex_joni> I agree
[20:02:20] <jmkasunich> a CL block should look the same
[20:02:31] <alex_joni> but like this it will be difficult to define pins for CL
[20:02:36] <alex_joni> what type are these pins?
[20:02:47] <jmkasunich> the way you describe it, the CL block wouldn't have anything at it's border, just lines reaching out and connecting to other stuff
[20:03:22] <jmkasunich> doesn't CL deal exclusively in bits?
[20:03:46] <alex_joni> I think so
[20:03:55] <jmkasunich> so then it's HAL pins would be bits
[20:03:58] <alex_joni> ok.. so I define input bits and output bits
[20:04:04] <jmkasunich> yeah
[20:04:09] <alex_joni> how many?
[20:04:16] <jmkasunich> how many do you want?
[20:04:20] <alex_joni> me?
[20:04:24] <alex_joni> hmmm.. a bunch
[20:04:36] <alex_joni> about 11 ;)
[20:04:41] <alex_joni> kidding, let me check how many you can define in CL
[20:04:44] <jmkasunich> CL doesn't let you use descriptive names for things does it?
[20:04:56] <alex_joni> no
[20:04:56] <jmkasunich> they are called A00, A01, A02, etc?
[20:05:09] <alex_joni> they are called I0-I14
[20:05:17] <alex_joni> B0-B14
[20:05:22] <alex_joni> Q0-Q14
[20:05:29] <alex_joni> I-Input
[20:05:30] <jmkasunich> ok, the A syntax must be from something else
[20:05:33] <alex_joni> Q-Output
[20:05:47] <jmkasunich> what's B?
[20:06:05] <alex_joni> state?
[20:06:06] <alex_joni> dunno
[20:06:08] <alex_joni> must check
[20:06:14] <jmkasunich> is the maximum really 14?
[20:06:39] <alex_joni> you have a page to define that
[20:06:44] <alex_joni> default they are at 50 both
[20:06:52] <jmkasunich> that's better
[20:07:31] <jmkasunich> let's see if I understand that screenshot you sent me
[20:07:34] <alex_joni> ok, so export hal pins based on the setting here
[20:07:48] <alex_joni> we won't use that one
[20:08:05] <alex_joni> well.. we will use it, but only partly
[20:08:25] <alex_joni> you'll say "1st %I mapped" (from where to count)
[20:08:33] <alex_joni> Type = Hal based pins
[20:08:42] <alex_joni> Nbr Channels = nr. of pins to export
[20:09:06] <alex_joni> e.g. if 1st %I mapped is 10, Type=Hal, Nbr Channels = 12
[20:09:38] <alex_joni> then it will export classicladder.0.pin-10-in
[20:09:44] <alex_joni> classicladder.0.pin-11-in
[20:09:47] <alex_joni> etc.
[20:10:01] <alex_joni> till classicladder.0.pin-21-in
[20:10:09] <alex_joni> how does that sound?
[20:10:10] <jmkasunich> perhaps "classicladder.0.I10"
[20:10:12] <jmkasunich> ?
[20:10:18] <alex_joni> good with me
[20:10:42] <alex_joni> we could imagine running 2 classicladder?
[20:10:46] <jmkasunich> sounds good
[20:10:53] <jmkasunich> sure (I think)
[20:11:29] <robin_sz> * robin_sz bangs his head on the wall
[20:11:32] <alex_joni> ok
[20:11:38] <alex_joni> what's up robin?
[20:11:44] <jmkasunich> rabbit troubles
[20:11:45] <alex_joni> need to hammer a nail?
[20:11:50] <robin_sz> so .. I ask on the rabbit users list about my rabbit trouble ..
[20:11:52] <alex_joni> use a hammer ;)
[20:11:58] <robin_sz> and get a response ...
[20:12:00] <alex_joni> let me gues...
[20:12:03] <alex_joni> it's normal?
[20:12:10] <robin_sz> from a fscking spelling pedant
[20:12:42] <robin_sz> grrr
[20:12:52] <alex_joni> what did he say?
[20:13:45] <robin_sz> someting like "mayeb a new keyboard will help you write more reliable code"
[20:13:45] <robin_sz> or equally useful
[20:14:05] <alex_joni> bummer
[20:14:15] <alex_joni> get a new keyboard,
[20:14:19] <alex_joni> and slam it to his head
[20:14:34] <jmkasunich> what exactly is going wrong? your code won't run, steve Hardy's code won't run, code won't download to flash, or what?
[20:14:42] <robin_sz> far far worse
[20:14:56] <robin_sz> steve hardys code loaded and ran just great
[20:15:01] <robin_sz> on friday
[20:15:11] <robin_sz> on saturday, it fails to boot
[20:15:18] <robin_sz> even when re-flashed
[20:15:23] <jmkasunich> it = steves code?
[20:15:27] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:15:35] <jmkasunich> the flash loader code works tho?
[20:15:42] <robin_sz> other code, even some of steves other code works
[20:16:17] <robin_sz> yeah, the loader works ... its a rabbit supplied cabkle and the field update ustility
[20:16:39] <alex_joni> maybe you changed the code?
[20:16:45] <robin_sz> nope
[20:16:47] <alex_joni> without wanting to?
[20:16:54] <robin_sz> re-downloaded the zip and diffed it
[20:16:58] <alex_joni> do you upload a binary?
[20:17:04] <robin_sz> yep
[20:17:18] <robin_sz> not got the compiler yet
[20:17:22] <jmkasunich> it worked on friday (running in flash), you powered down and powered back up sat, and the code in flash wouldn't run?
[20:17:30] <robin_sz> correct
[20:17:38] <jmkasunich> then you reloaded the same code in flash and it still wouldn't run
[20:17:47] <robin_sz> correct
[20:18:11] <jmkasunich> after that you tried loading other code, and that code does run?
[20:18:16] <alex_joni> the other code you tried (which runs)
[20:18:20] <robin_sz> bcorrect
[20:18:26] <alex_joni> does it use all the same stuff the first one uses?
[20:18:35] <alex_joni> HW-stuff?
[20:18:47] <robin_sz> mmm,
[20:18:54] <jmkasunich> interrupts?
[20:18:59] <alex_joni> timers?
[20:19:03] <alex_joni> watchdog?
[20:19:14] <robin_sz> potato
[20:19:25] <robin_sz> I'll have to dig a lot to find out
[20:19:31] <jmkasunich> you didn't have feline static generators wandering around on your bench in the wee hours of saturday morning, did you?
[20:19:49] <robin_sz> unlikely .. it just sat there
[20:19:55] <robin_sz> the other code still runs
[20:20:21] <robin_sz> like Mariss' original code .. that still works
[20:20:25] <jmkasunich> how exactly is steves code broken (IOW, what does it do now... just sits there?)
[20:20:49] <robin_sz> fails reste the hardware watchdog, triggers a reset
[20:20:57] <robin_sz> reset
[20:21:03] <jmkasunich> so it's not kicking the dog...
[20:21:29] <jmkasunich> do you have the source to steve's code?
[20:21:31] <robin_sz> the 'dog' is an external hw one, xor of the external address lines to the reset pin on a counter
[20:21:34] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:21:49] <jmkasunich> xor of addr lines?
[20:21:55] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:21:59] <jmkasunich> so _any_ activity resets the counter?
[20:22:02] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:22:08] <jmkasunich> lame ass watchdog
[20:22:19] <robin_sz> well, better than nuffin
[20:22:27] <jmkasunich> duh
[20:22:45] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich was thinking of "real" micros that fetch instructions
[20:22:49] <robin_sz> anyway, its hung
[20:23:02] <robin_sz> dead and reset
[20:23:03] <jmkasunich> single chip thingies can be in a loop and not twiddle the address lines
[20:23:05] <alex_joni> jmk: they usually have internal flash
[20:23:13] <jmkasunich> right
[20:23:19] <robin_sz> anyway ...
[20:23:22] <alex_joni> so they don't even output addresse outside
[20:23:26] <alex_joni> for instruction fetching
[20:23:28] <jmkasunich> right
[20:23:32] <robin_sz> it stores various bits of stuff in internal flash
[20:23:37] <alex_joni> so dog knows nothing about that
[20:23:40] <jmkasunich> so what "address bus" is the watchdog watching
[20:23:43] <alex_joni> robin: one question
[20:23:47] <robin_sz> i played a lot with testing some extreme settings
[20:23:54] <alex_joni> does the rabbit has some eeprom inside?
[20:23:56] <robin_sz> I figure something is still "in there"
[20:24:00] <alex_joni> have
[20:24:01] <robin_sz> alex_joni: not knowing
[20:24:18] <alex_joni> seen some micros who have flash/ram/eeprom
[20:24:22] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:24:27] <alex_joni> eeprom for some settings
[20:24:28] <robin_sz> i figure it probably does
[20:24:36] <robin_sz> the memory map was not helpful
[20:24:39] <alex_joni> maybe the code expects some settings which aren't there
[20:24:46] <robin_sz> or are set out of range
[20:24:52] <jmkasunich> these extreme settings were Friday?, but it was still working when you finished?
[20:24:59] <robin_sz> yeah,
[20:25:07] <robin_sz> dunno
[20:25:12] <robin_sz> could be a red herring
[20:25:17] <robin_sz> either way .. its worked
[20:25:23] <robin_sz> and now its borked
[20:26:02] <alex_joni> bugger
[20:26:03] <jmkasunich> well there's a huge difference between "it was working when I shut it off and busted when I turned it on the next morning" and "it was working until I changed parameter X"
[20:26:41] <jmkasunich> the first points at some kind of hardware failure
[20:26:49] <jmkasunich> the second at config issues
[20:27:08] <robin_sz> well, since both events where synchronus
[20:27:19] <alex_joni> yeah.. but if it works with some other code
[20:27:22] <alex_joni> it's really weird
[20:27:26] <robin_sz> without a debugger I'll never know
[20:27:42] <robin_sz> of course I could order the Dynamic C stuff online
[20:27:47] <robin_sz> if I lived in the USA
[20:28:53] <robin_sz> I thinkl that has a debugger ... cetainly my cable has a 'debug' plug on it
[20:29:07] <jmkasunich> so even tho you have the source, you can't modify it and recompile?
[20:29:25] <robin_sz> nope .. not till i get the dynamic C compiler
[20:29:29] <jmkasunich> bah
[20:29:33] <jmkasunich> that sucks
[20:29:39] <robin_sz> its cheap enough, $139
[20:30:10] <robin_sz> and thats with a development board I dont need and a cable I dont need either and a AC adpator I dont need
[20:30:24] <jmkasunich> ain't marketing fun?
[20:30:35] <robin_sz> of course you can buy it without all that crap
[20:30:44] <jmkasunich> for more money, right?
[20:30:49] <robin_sz> $200 right
[20:30:56] <jmkasunich> dumbasses
[20:31:07] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is feeling rather cynical today
[20:31:17] <robin_sz> I have NO idea why they dont give the compiler away free
[20:31:46] <robin_sz> "hell no, I mean if we did that, people might just make their own leads and start using our products!"
[20:32:20] <jmkasunich> marketing and business folks....
[20:32:31] <jmkasunich> but it cost us money to write it, we can't give it away
[20:32:33] <robin_sz> Microchip have ot right
[20:32:34] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees
[20:32:40] <alex_joni> go atmel ;)
[20:32:44] <robin_sz> yeah,
[20:32:45] <alex_joni> use avr-gcc
[20:32:50] <alex_joni> and avr-gdb
[20:32:51] <robin_sz> atmel, microchip ...
[20:32:57] <robin_sz> all the big guns ...
[20:32:58] <jmkasunich> Off topic, but you know anybody want's an antique shortwave radio?
[20:33:00] <alex_joni> not microchip ;)
[20:33:15] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: Collins?
[20:33:24] <jmkasunich> Hallicrafters S-85
[20:33:35] <robin_sz> ooh, thats worth $$$
[20:33:38] <jmkasunich> with the nice warm glow of valves
[20:33:47] <jmkasunich> this one's rather dusty and paint spattered
[20:33:53] <robin_sz> people pay cash for Hallicrafters though
[20:34:06] <jmkasunich> belonged to my father-in-law, I offered to ebay it for him
[20:34:17] <robin_sz> probably a good bet
[20:34:52] <jmkasunich> I should probably get busy cleaning it up and taking photos
[20:35:12] <jmkasunich> just another of the 500 things I have to do before I can get into coding again
[20:35:56] <robin_sz> hmmm
[20:36:15] <robin_sz> ok ... lets revisse that, people USED to pay good money for etc
[20:36:55] <jmkasunich> ?
[20:37:04] <robin_sz> ebay prices seem low
[20:38:35] <jmkasunich> ewwww.... less than $50
[20:38:43] <robin_sz> ick
[20:38:50] <robin_sz> that used to be sought after gear
[20:38:53] <robin_sz> well made
[20:40:34] <wb9mjn> I did a summer intern at Northrop-DSD, used to be Hallicrafters...All the test equipment was labeled with Hallicrafters asset tags...
[20:40:35] <jmkasunich> looks like lots of interest, just not much $$$
[20:40:48] <jmkasunich> all the completed ones on ebay had multiple bids
[20:41:16] <robin_sz> right
[20:41:28] <wb9mjn> There are allot of antique radio guys...Allot of the reason people get into it is the sweat equity potential....
[20:42:03] <wb9mjn> Take a handful of really sorry parts and make something that works...
[20:42:21] <jmkasunich> this one works, but was stored poorly... paint spatters, dirt, etc
[20:42:36] <robin_sz> s/works/electrocutes the guy you sold it to, gets your ass sued off/
[20:42:50] <wb9mjn> The amateur radio market place is extremely cash poor....
[20:42:56] <robin_sz> for 50 bucks, Id keep it
[20:43:08] <robin_sz> nice thing, valves
[20:43:13] <jmkasunich> for $50 and shipping, you can have it ;-)
[20:43:15] <cradek> the problem is probably shipping.
[20:43:18] <jmkasunich> I don't have the space for it
[20:43:22] <wb9mjn> Its like being in an industry in the third world, literally!
[20:43:26] <robin_sz> I have more than enough amateur radio gear
[20:43:53] <robin_sz> I'm just wanting to try this Henry PA out and see if it will go to 144mhz :)
[20:43:58] <jmkasunich> re: electrocution... don'cha know what "AS IS" means...
[20:44:26] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[20:44:39] <wb9mjn> I made a 4cx1000 300 watt 144 MHz oscillator once, hi..
[20:44:52] <wb9mjn> Really should have used a 4cx1000sk ....
[20:44:53] <robin_sz> oh ...
[20:44:59] <robin_sz> :)
[20:45:06] <robin_sz> I think this PA has one of those
[20:45:20] <wb9mjn> They diffierence is the grounded screens and special socket...
[20:45:25] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:45:39] <wb9mjn> the sk has the solid ring for the shield connection...
[20:45:57] <robin_sz> yep and the mica screen C
[20:46:02] <wb9mjn> versus the 3 tabs....
[20:46:24] <wb9mjn> And the socket has a fingers right over to the ring, all the way round...
[20:46:32] <wb9mjn> from ground...
[20:46:34] <robin_sz> ISTR running 4CX250s in SK610 and SK620s
[20:46:57] <robin_sz> ah, no ...
[20:47:05] <alex_joni> jeee... I hate this kind of code
[20:47:10] <robin_sz> this PA doesnt have a 4CX1000
[20:47:19] <robin_sz> its a 4CX1500
[20:47:37] <wb9mjn> 4cx1000 is like a 250, but the cooling fins are 4 inches in diameter...
[20:47:38] <alex_joni> pConf->DeviceType = DEVICE_TYPE_COMEDI+ComboVal-2
[20:47:41] <jmkasunich> oh boy :-(
[20:48:03] <alex_joni> that assumes you only can have COMEDI or directportacces in the dropdown
[20:48:05] <alex_joni> :(
[20:48:07] <jmkasunich> open cover, radio has 1/8" of sawdust everywhere
[20:48:18] <robin_sz> wb9mjn: yeah, I know ... this PA has the 4CX1500, looks similar, but a bit bigger
[20:48:30] <robin_sz> wb9mjn: want the bad news?
[20:48:41] <wb9mjn> And the connections for the grid, screens and filament and cathode are on 3 tabs stacked down the length of it...
[20:48:57] <wb9mjn> 3 tabs for each connections, that rotate into fingers on the socket...
[20:48:57] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[20:49:24] <robin_sz> wb9mjn: the bad news is .. .the 4CX1500 is only the driver stage :)
[20:49:42] <wb9mjn> Just vacuum it out....No need to worry about static with those old radios...
[20:50:16] <wb9mjn> The 300 watt oscilator was built out of the drive stage for a 4 megawatt radar....
[20:50:23] <robin_sz> heh :)
[20:50:28] <wb9mjn> on 41 MHz...
[20:50:30] <robin_sz> this isnt quite that big
[20:50:34] <robin_sz> 25kw out
[20:50:38] <robin_sz> CW
[20:51:02] <wb9mjn> They used it for meteor trail tracking...for upper atmosphere research...no...
[20:51:07] <robin_sz> right
[20:51:07] <wb9mjn> It was pulsed...
[20:51:13] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[20:51:21] <jmkasunich> vacuum and a soft paintbrush for nooks and crannies
[20:51:32] <wb9mjn> They would overload the reciever front end everytime a plane got into one of the side-lobes...
[20:51:42] <robin_sz> hah, it would!
[20:52:21] <wb9mjn> Which did not happen often, as the antenna was a phased array the size of a foot ball field...pointed straight up..
[20:52:33] <robin_sz> oohh ..
[20:52:44] <robin_sz> saves on masts I guess
[20:52:58] <wb9mjn> Well...universities have limited funding...
[20:53:09] <robin_sz> up is a good direction
[20:54:08] <wb9mjn> The output was 4 cavities and they were combined with branch-line hybrids made out of 12 inch air-line...
[20:54:39] <wb9mjn> Anyway.....that s a bit OT...
[20:54:45] <wb9mjn> And acient history...
[20:55:14] <wb9mjn> I did finally get all three axis on my project running with the MOTENC-100 yesterday...
[20:56:03] <robin_sz> nice
[20:56:06] <robin_sz> works OK?
[20:56:10] <wb9mjn> The last one was the Y axis.....which is driven with a belt drive...but the encoder is directly coupled to the screw...
[20:56:21] <robin_sz> right
[20:56:31] <wb9mjn> Have not made anything with it yet,, but as far as i can tell it s working ok....
[20:56:54] <wb9mjn> Following error not as good as the X (which has direct coupled drive) but within +/-.0005 ...
[20:57:36] <wb9mjn> I had to make a part that was both a pulley, and adapted the 3/8 s screw shaft to the 10 mm ID encoder...
[20:58:12] <wb9mjn> Got some timing pulley stock from SDP/SI and turned it...came out nice...
[20:58:32] <robin_sz> sounds a nice mod
[20:58:48] <robin_sz> belt drive is often an excelletn coupling method
[20:58:49] <wb9mjn> Also made a custom pulley for the motor, to fit the original D+M 6 drive plate exactly....
[20:59:02] <robin_sz> post jpegs :)
[20:59:15] <robin_sz> in the 'case studies' are of the Wiki :)
[20:59:33] <alex_joni> area
[20:59:38] <wb9mjn> The X drive is doing about twice as good following error...I can see when the force on the belt reverses direction during the middle of a 1 inch move...
[20:59:48] <wb9mjn> Puts out the .0005 error spike...
[20:59:55] <jmkasunich> wonder what a 6H6 is?
[21:00:23] <jmkasunich> short lil' thing, only about 1" tall
[21:00:35] <wb9mjn> A 6H6 is a power tetrode I beieve...
[21:00:44] <wb9mjn> Probably the audio output tube...
[21:00:52] <robin_sz> audio output then :)
[21:00:56] <robin_sz> snap
[21:00:56] <wb9mjn> That is an OLD radio...
[21:01:27] <wb9mjn> WW II vintage to be using those...Is that a glass packaged, or metal packaged tue ?
[21:01:29] <robin_sz> picnet!
[21:01:39] <jmkasunich> all tubes are metal except for 2
[21:01:46] <robin_sz> coo. old.
[21:02:05] <robin_sz> thats 'vintage' then :)
[21:02:17] <jmkasunich> all tubes made by (or at least labeled) Hallicrafters
[21:02:24] <wb9mjn> I pitched all my metal tubes from my ARC - 5 radios i had in high school just a few years ago....sold off the ARC-5 s years and years ago...
[21:03:25] <wb9mjn> Just after WWII they came out with the glass tubes, where the pins were integral to the glass tubes..If you take apart one of those metal tubes, you
[21:03:43] <wb9mjn> will see wires from the glass envelope over to the plastic octal bases....
[21:03:51] <robin_sz> hard to come by now I expect
[21:04:06] <jmkasunich> my father-in-law is in his early 70's, and I think he said he bought the radio when he was in college, pre-Korean war
[21:04:26] <wb9mjn> In the 50's radios the pins went right thru the glass...
[21:04:46] <jmkasunich> right, the "mineature" tubes
[21:05:01] <robin_sz> ECC86 etc
[21:05:12] <jmkasunich> so glass with octal base is older, then metal with octal base, then the all glass ones?
[21:05:15] <wb9mjn> In the US, I would think they are around...There were zillions of ARC-5 tx's and rx's sold off after the war...When i got my novice license in 1973, that was my first
[21:05:17] <wb9mjn> radio...
[21:05:34] <robin_sz> mine was a Heathkit
[21:05:39] <robin_sz> then an AR88D
[21:05:55] <robin_sz> and a 'B40' at some point
[21:07:34] <wb9mjn> No...glass with octal base is newer...The metal tubes have glass inside, wired to an octal base, then capped with metal...
[21:07:57] <wb9mjn> At one point somebody developed epoxy, which allowed a phenolic octal base to be glued to the glass tube...
[21:08:26] <wb9mjn> That was right in the late 40's ...
[21:09:10] <jmkasunich> This radio has a 5Y3 and 6K6 that are glass with octal bases, and the rest are metal
[21:09:15] <wb9mjn> Then after the octal base tubes came the socalled "minuature" tubes with no base at all, just pins..
[21:09:24] <jmkasunich> right, I know those
[21:09:28] <wb9mjn> 5y3 is the rectified I think...
[21:09:35] <jmkasunich> the classic 5 tube radio
[21:09:57] <jmkasunich> 50?? for a rectifier, all filaments in series across the 110V line, etc
[21:10:29] <wb9mjn> 5 is the filimanet voltage...In the rectifier, there was a seperate winding on the transformer for the rectifier filament, as it was a cathode-less design, and t
[21:10:38] <wb9mjn> the filament carried HV...
[21:10:40] <jmkasunich> right
[21:11:20] <wb9mjn> That is not a "5 tube" design...
[21:11:41] <wb9mjn> A 5 tube design has no filament windings on the transformer...
[21:11:44] <jmkasunich> not this radio - I was referring to the mineature tube ear
[21:11:56] <wb9mjn> The filaments were as you say all wired in series and summed to 115 v ac..
[21:11:57] <jmkasunich> s/ear/era
[21:12:41] <jmkasunich> those 5 tube jobbies were strictly consumer grade, the Hallicrafters is built to a higher standard
[21:12:49] <wb9mjn> The 5 tube design radios are actually worth something on the "Antiques Road Show" as those are the ones in the fancy phenolic cases...
[21:13:01] <wb9mjn> Yep...
[21:13:43] <wb9mjn> Hallicrafters was "communications" grade until the early 60's when Collins came out with SSB...
[21:14:24] <wb9mjn> That is why there are still people who will buy that radio...
[21:15:25] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[21:16:35] <wb9mjn> Anyway....have to do the non R/T I/O hookup to the mill next weekend...Have a board coming in that I can wire all the opto isolators through into the MOTENC-100...
[21:17:09] <wb9mjn> So, should be able to start the spindle, and unlock the Z screw next week this time....
[21:17:13] <wb9mjn> from the computer...
[21:17:59] <wb9mjn> Found the best bargain in 50 pin ribbon to screw terminal boards...$55....
[21:18:17] <wb9mjn> Everything else was more than $70...
[21:18:44] <wb9mjn> Even for the ones that are compatible to the 24 point Opto boards (which only have 26 screw terminals)...
[21:20:05] <wb9mjn> I got this D+M 6 off Ebay about this time last year....took that long to rebuild, and get all the other stuff....
[21:20:46] <wb9mjn> Paid about 1000 too much, as the description of the X/Y table was false, and all the bidding went way high because of that...
[21:21:19] <wb9mjn> It was said to be a 9 by 12 travel table...When I got it, it was a 4 by 6 travel table...and all screwed up too...
[21:21:54] <wb9mjn> What I ended up with is a 7.5 by 5.6 travel....on linear ways, with ball screws...
[21:22:33] <wb9mjn> The electronics were pre-power mosfet R/L drives...totally useless...
[21:23:13] <alex_joni> jmk: still around?
[21:23:40] <jmkasunich> intermittently ;-)
[21:23:55] <alex_joni> I get an error about needing to define RTAPI/ULAPI
[21:24:01] <alex_joni> in order to include hal.h
[21:24:38] <jmkasunich> yep - hal uses RTAPI to manage access to shared memory
[21:24:56] <alex_joni> ok, so I need to define one
[21:24:59] <alex_joni> ULAPI is ok?
[21:25:14] <jmkasunich> you need to include rtapi.h, and define RTAPI if it is a realtime module, or ULAPI for user space modules
[21:27:10] <jmkasunich> for user space, link with ulapi.o as well as hal_lib.o
[21:30:34] <alex_joni> ok, compiling and linking fine
[21:30:41] <alex_joni> now I need to write some code ;)
[21:30:48] <alex_joni> hal_init() & such ;)
[21:30:56] <jmkasunich> good luck
[21:31:02] <alex_joni> :-)
[21:31:10] <jmkasunich> gotta go, talk to you guys later
[21:31:10] <alex_joni> it's got nothing to do with luck :))
[21:31:12] <alex_joni> bye
[21:57:43] <ottos> good day gents...
[22:21:54] <kudos> hello
[22:22:42] <alex_joni_> hello
[22:22:49] <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
[22:23:12] <kudos> how is EMC on being a lathe controller?
[22:23:27] <alex_joni> lathe control is still beeing developed
[22:23:45] <alex_joni> it's not fully functional yet
[22:23:50] <alex_joni> not sure what works right now
[22:24:07] <kudos> is there any of it usable/testable yet in EMC?
[22:24:34] <kudos> is it going to have, diamitor programming, feed/rev, screw cutter?
[22:24:41] <kudos> *cutting
[22:25:03] <alex_joni> I'm sorry, but I don't know
[22:25:11] <alex_joni> maybe somebody else can help you...
[22:25:21] <kudos> who is doing the lathe side do you know1?
[22:25:22] <alex_joni> I know paul_c has been working on lathe support
[22:25:33] <alex_joni> but he's not around right now
[22:25:44] <kudos> hes on holiday isnt he?
[22:25:48] <alex_joni> he usually gets around here during the week too, maybe you'll catch him
[22:25:51] <alex_joni> yes he is
[22:26:02] <A-L-P-H-A> kudos, I haven't played with EMC on the lathe, but I do use turbocnc for lathe work, and I've found it to be pretty good. And you can script it to do diameter programming [albeit it'll be weird]
[22:26:33] <A-L-P-H-A> feed/rev = via scripting. screw cutting = yes.
[22:26:58] <kudos> is that linux based to?
[22:30:13] <kudos> we'v looking to turn a harding NC lathe intoa CNC controlled using EMC
[22:30:17] <kudos> replace the old control on it
[22:31:50] <kudos> hardinge not harding lol
[22:38:59] <anonimasu> hm..
[22:39:04] <anonimasu> I've been using turbocnc too
[22:42:25] <kudos> is this the one you mean1? http://www.microkinetics.com/cncsoft.htm
[22:43:10] <anonimasu> no
[22:43:12] <anonimasu> www.dakeng.com
[22:43:23] <anonimasu> although I cant wait to get emc running.. it seems less buggy already :)
[22:45:30] <alex_joni> hey anon
[22:46:02] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is running classicladder connected to HAL
[22:46:24] <alex_joni> I even got a signal from spindle-on into classicladder
[22:46:25] <alex_joni> ;)
[22:46:27] <alex_joni> hey rayh
[22:46:31] <alex_joni> it started to work
[22:46:44] <robin_sz> alex_joni: oi! .. stop that!
[22:46:53] <alex_joni> what?
[22:46:55] <rayh> Great. What is it?
[22:47:03] <alex_joni> classicladder connected to hal
[22:47:07] <robin_sz> making stuff work witbin a few hours
[22:47:09] <rayh> Oh missed that line.
[22:47:13] <rayh> That is fantastic.
[22:47:22] <alex_joni> it's a quick hack to make it work
[22:47:27] <robin_sz> you are supposed to take weeks and then abandon it half finished
[22:47:31] <rayh> How?
[22:47:32] <alex_joni> lol
[22:47:36] <alex_joni> maybe I will ;)
[22:47:39] <robin_sz> :)
[22:47:44] <alex_joni> well.. it only uses ulapi so far
[22:47:48] <robin_sz> if it works already, thats amazing
[22:47:51] <alex_joni> and .. the code needs testing
[22:47:57] <alex_joni> who wants it?
[22:48:12] <rayh> Wish I had time to set up a 2 box.
[22:48:20] <alex_joni> emc2?
[22:48:29] <alex_joni> should take about 5 mins ;)
[22:48:43] <rayh> Yes. I had to trash mine and dedicate the box to other stuff.
[22:48:51] <alex_joni> hehe ...
[22:49:02] <alex_joni> think I'll mail it to jmk
[22:49:12] <rayh> You bet.
[22:52:06] <alex_joni> anybody wants a cc?
[22:55:57] <alex_joni> anyways...
[22:56:02] <robin_sz> im not running an emc2 box at the moment either
[22:56:05] <alex_joni> how's the wappit robin?
[22:56:10] <robin_sz> fscked
[22:56:15] <alex_joni> :(
[22:56:26] <robin_sz> I need Dynamic C to debug it
[22:56:37] <alex_joni> robin: http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/emc/win-emc.zip
[22:56:41] <robin_sz> I'll ring the UK distributor first thing
[22:56:46] <alex_joni> although it's only emc1
[22:56:57] <alex_joni> and it won't work with classicladder ;)
[22:57:25] <robin_sz> oh, for doze!
[22:57:36] <robin_sz> wait, I'll go find a 'doze box
[22:57:55] <alex_joni> lol
[22:57:55] <alex_joni> it's sim only ;)
[22:58:00] <alex_joni> but it's got emcsvr compiled
[22:58:14] <alex_joni> so you could run the GUI on a linux :)))
[22:58:55] <alex_joni> ok, enough play for me
[22:59:06] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is shutting down
[22:59:08] <alex_joni> bye
[22:59:24] <rayh> catch you later
[22:59:34] <alex_joni> night all
[23:00:15] <robin_sz> oh, hes gone