gezr: our first and only Home Depot in the county is set to open in may
40 mile drive to get to one now
I did not get to paint those enclosures...low on primer.
Have a trip for supplies as well I guess
hey les, yu about?
* robin_sz needs a little motioneering help
i'm here now...
the figures im getting dont make sense
I get teeny weeny motor sizes ..
so you pot in reducers
im obviously missing someting
a units thing?
mmm, dont think so ...
probably a concepts thing
* robin_sz nods
I have found the math to be correct
but lets do a manual sanity check
ok 30 kG mass
but lets say rack and pinion,
as thats effectively what it is
k 2 m/s^2
guess ... 5:1
getting a pencil
60 N force required
300mm/s rapids 200mm/s G1
so 60n* .025m=1.5 Nm torque
divide by 5
oh, bugger all then :)
=only .3 nM
where did the 0.025 come from?
radius of pinion in meters
actually, that was a guess
now power is just torque times speed
its a 32T pulley on 5mm pitch .. 160mm/rev
so what is your rpm at the motor for 0.3 m/s?
ok times 2*PI
sound about right?
seems high ... but that peak I guess
yes that is peak
but still does seem high
does anyone know what the pully teeth number/diameter, teeth pitch/spacing is for an XL timing gear?
motor RPM and ... thats radians per minute
oh that's the problem haha
divide by 60
300mm /second = 2 pinion revs = 10 motor revs
Alpha: the Gates web site has that info
les? I don't know the "Gates" website.
Gates rubber, they make belts
google Gates timing belt
I see. :)
25 watts then
sounds much better
bugger all :)
need to put in friction etc
yeah ... first I need to see if I can get the same values out of motioneering :)
and...if it is a 1:1 inertia match to the motor...double it
gotta really watch that number
1:1 is the aim then?
no not really
but it should be less than about 5
if the load dominates servo will detune as load changes
les, robin_sz, couldn't find any XL gear specs... just belts, but not pitch info and stuff
if motor dominates it's dragging down the whole system and is the wrong choice
alpha: It's buried in there somewhere
A-L-P-H-A: its out there ... try the Transdev site ...
If this is a new design and is for cnc...
I would suggest GT rather than XL
dont use XL :)
or .. better still
I have XL belts and other XL pulleys already... that's why.
so I've got a pully I need to make custom this time... and trying to use what I have to drive this custom one.
oohh custom timing pully
lots of work
yes. I know and understand this. I will soon have a rotary axis, and I already have a milling attachment, so making isn't too much of an issue.
as long as you are having a good time...
I also have gear cutters... which I don't know how much they will help me. :)
robin: so motioneering should be giving you about 50 watts plus friction
21 including ...!!
Alpha: I think XL is just trapezoidal
ive obviously got a thinko here
you got 21 from it?
21 including friction
ok that sounds real
so im putting someting in the wrong place
well it will be 20 ish if the inertia ratio motor/load is low
will be 50 ish if it's 1
it does calculater it
so basically, almost any small servo will do this
don't know the friction
its linear rail
100 W servo is safe
2:1 SAFETY FACTOR
so basically, choose a motor of around 100W, and adjust the gearbox ratio until the inertia match is around 3;1
That will be $75...oh I forgot you gave me those vendors for my client yesterday
inertia ratio from 0.5 to about 3 yes
ive just been looking at the Baldor stuff,
very nice .. and half the price of Burny
It used to be more critical back when amps were expensive
I had better check baldor as well then
yeah, its neat stuff
ok that's another $50 credit for you
Well, I back calculated the XL gear stuff... from http://www.econobelt.com/Q460/RFQ/default.asp?Page=Pg_1-018_1.html
find their 'Mint NC' package
horray for my degree in math ... :)
its a front end for shape cutting machines :)
I'm a math guy too..but an aero engineer
s/aero engineer/spray gun operator/
soon plc programmer
then goof off
im a electronics engineer and programmer .. err welder and painter
I just failed at an attempt to build a simple box
so what the difference between 'slide weight' and 'weight of carried axis' in motioneering?
I failed at painting a simple box
or does it just ad them together as "stuff I have to move"
put the weight in either place
it was them called it weight, not me :)
they divide by g
les: look over this
[01:06:49] <robin_z> http://www.baldor.co.uk/products/mint/mintnc.asp
oh...put in something for transmission moment of inertia
easy to use and configurable front end for the various balodr controllers .. demo at the bottom of page 17mb
I wonder where paul_c is hanging out this week ..
holiday huh ;)
whereever...he isn't over jet lag
baldor looks ok
for my plasma, its about 1K GBP for motors/drives/gearboxes
600 for the controller
sorry, 1K per axis
much cheaper than Burny?
oh yes ... I said Burny was EXPENSIVE!
but, idiot proof
(like 6k2 ... for a complete 2 axis system)
I fgure it will be 60% of that statside
Kinda depends on the depth of client's pockets
the burny stuff is *nice* though ... you'd have to add a case to put it in
If their money buys it I tend to be not cheap haha
right, thanks for the input ...
I need sleep
less chance of me looking as if I gave them bad advice
yes sleep...and I have to run to town
gezr what happened to your simple box?
I need to sit down now, and figure out the electronics for my mill again. :) been so many months since i've even turned it one. :/
well.. the powersupply for the steppers
uh oh...snow and sleet today
may not get to run the machine if power quality is poor
very earlymorning here.
Toronto, Ontario! :)
I forget where everyone else is from.
there is still no sunlight outside.
I am in northeast Georgia in the southern mountains
no light here either
When we have bad weather here the power is a bit unreliable
CNC machines don't like that!
no. I wouldn't expect so.
I just finally wired up the stepper motors for my mill... :)
everything seems good, but haven't powered them on yet.
I may be wiring some steppers for a client today if I can't run the cnc
took me 2 hours, to shrink warp, check, double check, tripple check my wiring.
I don't have a clue what two of them are... [x and y], but my z is 440oz/in or 3-4nm
seems plenty for a small mill
I will be doing another mill as soon as I can find one
A BP sreies 2 or something like that
it's a benchtop mill... I _need_ to weld up a nice solid table for it... it's on this sheetmetal stand... which is very shakey.
I wouldn't mind a BP series 2. :)
I keep plenty of 2x2x.125 square welded tubing for tables
but most places that have a decent one want to charge me like 2K. And a shibby one with poor backlash, for $700K CDN.
At auction they are almost free
steel tubing is relatively cheap anyways.
especially the cnc ones with no handles for manual use
les? what? BP type mills?
Most of the cost is just moving it
I've seen some CRAZY people bid like $5K cdn, $4K USD on a used mill.
yes... many had no manual handles
les, dang... I need to go to the auctions around you.
people in Toronto, are CRAZY!
I want one in good shape with old fried or stepper controls
moving it would have cost me like $200-300 just to move it.
That much to move one is typical
I want one that's dead... with a working spindle.
but I'm in the CITY!
and good ways and ballscrews
Well I was in Chicago
ballscrews, I can get... they aren't precision ball screws, but they do the job nicely... www.roton.com
bought lots of tools
I use HIWIN...but if the machine is from qa school it might have good ballscrews
what toys did you get?
let me link a tool list
roton.com is very affordable...
I forget the precision on them now.
[11:55:34] <les> http://lmwatts.com/shop.html
you have patents? :) cool.
many of those tools were rebuilt or restored stuff from Chicago auctions or plant closings
I do have lots of patents for what they are worth
AHHA!!!! <not a laught> you are the guy that had the indexable tooling that was being sold...
I saw that before, and the idea is great!
A good example of the tools I got was my boyar surface grinder
It was FREE
I stripped it, repainted, and rescraped the ways
I got several surface grinders for free
why? cause they were lots of work to redo?
I scraped it in woth a lab grade plate (+/- 25 millionths)
Yes...so much so that they are just scrapped
It is hard to justify that stuff in business
ahh... I could have picked up a engine lathe for free... but it's been sitting in the rain for probably 7 years.
I need a surface grinder :)
I bought 5 Boxford lathes from a college
les, if you wanted to resell it, how much could you get for it? after your work to it.
les, how much?
fixed up one and sold the others
I long until I am off work for today
so I can finally set up the mill
no the lathes. but my other question too.
anonimasu. :) I got mine wired yesterday. :)
in the '80s they sold for 6k
mine's running ;)
I sold for 2
although I havent entered the settings yet..
I have them on paper :D
have to turn on the power supply to see if I'll blow any fuses. :(
it is actually.
I've blow 3 gecko g201's... cause of that.
I use a old welder as PSU
With big stuff I slowly power up with a Variac
Mariss says one is fine... but the other two are dead. I think one is repairable, and can be scavenged from the 3rd.
watching for smoke
if I short anything it'll rain sparks..
I guess I could EDM with the powersupply
the one he says is fine, I keep blowing fuses... maybe I wired the motor up wrong. dunno.
if I short the cables.. aginst the machine
I want an WIRE edm machine... :) that would be the bomb.
* anonimasu too
I'll build a edm head eventually
for the mill..
to do super precise holes..
or maybe a 10x10 edm machine.. :)
and why do you need super precise holes?
I dont know.. :D
I am wondering if I should be sharpening carbide in house
I'm trying to figure out what I can make with my mill. :)
I just want to be able to do stull like that..
les, probably not.
sending out tools is a logistical problem
I'll do the cnc porting of my engine head as soon as I get the mill running 100%
I was already scared to drill and tap the mill's base...
* anonimasu is a kamikaze pilot
or well, kamikaze machinist..
though I did it... and it turned out awesome.
I get about 6-8 hrs out of a $50 carbide spiral cutter
in some cases that is one day!
a-l-p-h-a: I'd make a trial of wood first
a-l-p-h-a: hence the reason I am looking into feedrate control right now ;)
Speed & amp sensing
although I'd love to measure it on the servos..
I find the very best protection (with servos) is to set ferror estop very very tight
it will estop on ferror even if the tool gets a little dull
oh, I want a slower feed when taking violent cuts.. if the load gets too high...
if any unplanned cutting happens it stops
Only recently could we do this with emc
ferror was broken until a few months ago
are you using a STG card?
math error in the code
I dont have anything like that
well gecko is a true servo
it's just that the computer does not know where things are
the geckos are great..
gecko does to what..128 counts?
well on a 2000 count quad encoder and 5 mm pitch
that's what I have ;)
but that is 2000 on the gecko..
thats 0.32 mm
but I gear it 1:4..
since I have small servos..
so .08 mm
anonimasu, when someone stats gears ratios.. what does that mean? Driving parent to child?
but it's that way I sate em..
les: hm, you mean per encoder count?
I need some breakfast... hungry...
or max following error?
.08mm will estop for you
is that's much?
I wonder where it's at when cutting..
I want somthing around 0.01
too much force will deflect the p gain "spring"
on a mill you would need ff to get ferror that low I think
or velocity mode
not sure if Geckos are current mode or velocity
I use current mode due to the higher bandwidth
les, I'm re-reading your article on scraping. How come I could just get a nice preground plate that I bolt to a resonably flat surface, and mount rails onto that preground plate?
but then I am running at very high speeds
you can get a preground plate
In the example shown it was a couple meters though
I think geckodrives does current..
I just know my servos are nice when
when they go 4000rpm ;)
at the servos.
but I dont know how many ipm that is..
Velocity mode amps were mostly used long ago because the computer hardware was slow
I think I can get preground plates up to 6ft.
les: how do you calc that
now most use current (torque)
yeah or mm/min
well 4000 rpm
divide by 4
that's 1000rpm at the screw
so screw is 1000 rpm?
pitch is 5/mm?
5 meters/ min
That is about the speed I do wood at
ok I wouldnt dream about cutting anything like that
my servos will do 6000rpm ;)
but I doubt my bearings will like that
ballscrew end bearings?
anonimasu, servos at that speed? what's the torque?
I actually need a servo to go at high speeds... I'll use them as a spindle motor.
or is that a bad bad idea?
I'd love a 4kw servo as spindle motor :D
or well for the lathe..
I've got a 3.25axis lathe... .25 cause I'm not finished the 4th.
rotary C axis. :)
lathe + mill
turn the part machine the flats..
anonimasu, I can use a servo as a spindle right? What rpm can I pump a servo to?
a-l-p-h-a: max rpm that the specs state
* anonimasu bought galil servos
they have a max rpm at 6500 :)
what's the cost?
but in usa 395$
but thats small ones
with or without the electronics/encoder?
[12:33:04] <anonimasu> http://www.galilmc.com/products/motors/servomotors.html
there's this one, that's only 120W [don't remember how to convert] for $458USD. Does only 3000rpm.
6500 x 2 x pi x 2.18/60...
that's the ones that I wanted..
but they were even more expensive..
look at the max torque..
that'd be lovely for running directly at the screws I think
a-l-p-h-a: that sounds a bit little
[12:35:11] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.orientalmotor.co.jp/cgi-bin/WebObjects/USOMACMotor.woa/wa/f3?bk=0&ls=&sid=800&md=FBL5120AW%2DA&gr=&gmd=
mine are about 3.6 kW peak but I don't use that much power
which is what my geckos provide
geckos can do 20 peak I thought
unless you have em set for 8
I thought that was 8
let me check
about 22a is max the motors will take..
2:1 ratio, geared... I've got 13000rpm... at max... do I lose my torque at that much rpm (at the motor)
no servos can deliver peak torque at any rpm pretty much
well...sun is up...time to hit the shop for me
breakfast time for me... I think.
breakfast or sleep... still haven't slept yet.
anonimasu, I like that servo alot... http://www.galilmc.com/catalog/blm_n23.pdf
I wonder if it'll be good enough for a _SMALL_ (1mm endmill), driving at 2:1 ration, so spindle is going at 10rpm. or gear it up to 15000rpm
hm, maybe, a bit low..
you'd better get one with more torque
N34-170-1000 <-- BIG
also $600 bucks + a gecko
that's I think is the same cost as my mill... :(
must be cheaper solutions.
* alex_joni is back later
alex_joni: well, 3phase drive's
a-l-p-h-a: I dont know about small endmills really but I still think you will want lots of torque
err a 3phase motor..
paul_c: welcome back
morning paul, you were right, someone already found the wiki 8-(
what was the url ?
SteveStallings: is that blogdns.org link what you're talking about?
there are two active, including the old at ...wiki.pl, not sure which it was posted from
yes the blog stuff, spam I thought, I don't read German
* alex_joni is back
SteveStallings: I think wikis should have that "tell me what's in this gif of five letters" to avoid changes by robots
cradek: or user/pass auth
alex_joni: yes, that would work, but a lot of people won't register.
alex_joni: I often edit wikis I visit (fixing spelling, grammar, or minor content problems) but I would never register to do that.
the char recognition is a very good solution
and widely available
at least the spammers would have to do the edits manually.
and real users can easily take the spam out
nice.. there is some info in there already
what is the strange technicolor Use Mod thing?
alt for edit this page
I think it's the logo of the wiki robin installed
[15:32:26] <cradek> http://sofortkredite.blogdns.org
[15:32:41] <cradek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha
this is what I meant
nice.. and easy to insert
there is some info about setting up RT missing
would that belong to a emc-knowledge-base?
or better to RTAI's and RTlinux'es pages?
it's a WiKi, just do what YOU think is helpful
steve: lost connection again?
yes, silent death, guess IRC uses keep alive packets or something, I have had a reliable connection doing other thing the whole time
thanks for your contributions to the wiki
don't mention it
I'm writing the RTLinux and RTAI installs right now
but between other things ;)
anyone still around?
for another three weeks
that's a paradox isn't it ?
that's something you need to aspire to...
at least I do ;)
any luck with bdi-4.12 ? (to upload it?)
paul_c: do you remember whether parport (motion) output is broken in BDI 4.08?
* alex_joni remembers anonimasu complaining about step/dir with custom ini-pin_definitions
cradek: The bug kicks in after trying to home an axis
motion still works on the parport.
the $10/hr spray painter gets a lunch break!
* alex_joni keeps the printer busy
Hope to get a bill of materials for automating painting together this weekend
this is sounding too much like real work Les
well I really do make $10/hr....
I get the 2-3k/wk company profits haha
can't take this painting much more really
That $200 PLC will do this nicely
didn't see HVLP automated though.. (shouldn't be that hard ...)
stepper drive for turntable
I'll just use 2 hvlp spray heads
unskilled labor then can put the part onand take it off
need a robot for that too haha
heh.. or a slow conveyor
yeah but part need to turn
spray time will be 2 seconds
they can turn as they move forward
then 5 times that long to put the part on and take it off?
conveyor with turntables on it
when they reach the spraying position a motor drives the turntable
if I had the time to do such things
Doing the plc will take a week or two i'll bet
or HW plc?
Then the only thing left I have to do is monitor the machine while emc does it's thing
HW....it's just faster
one little box runs the stepper and solenoids directly
24v 10A outputs
and a stepper driver
* alex_joni tries to remember the name of a software
that is the quickest way
it was for network statistics
kinda like ntop...
I only have statistics stuff for signal analysis
studying the language for that PLC while lunch defrosts
semms pretty simple
has high level stuff like PID()
and stepper ( count, direction)
servo and stepper
stepper goes to 20,000 pps
will use stepper for turntable
use Dout for solenoids
has 8 channels of analog i/o
don't need that
laser beam through the spray cloud to set pressure and mixture?
haha too complicated but it could do it
hmm rs232/485 to computer?
looking for usb
but you need to make sure you don't spray on your laser sensor
usb is bad ;)
it's too short
to be usefull (max 5m)
then you need hubs
oh well no problem
rs232 is better than USB for most apps ;)
flash it's little eproms with 323
485 is nice too, but PC's don't speak it (only some SBC's)
uh oh stepper out is only logic level
will need a little gain
or something already put together
just a NEMA 17 or 23 motor will be enough for the turntable
ditrect drive at about 100 rpm
how many turns do you need / spraying?
right now I do 2
so 2 secs = 2 rotations (e.g. 60 RPM ?)
yeah actually you are right
but you can go faster... more spray layers
but may need to increase time and decrease paint flow to get it feathered evenly
I do think faster would be better
what objects do you paint?
just the turkey calls
didn't get that.. :(
uralkyd varnish really
That is just my current contract to make them
they are selling much better than we thought
need to quadruple production
the cnc maxes out at 500-700 units a week
3 min 20 sec per unit to machine
that includes tool changes
actually could do 1000+ a week
but need to include down time to service the machine, sweep the floor, etc
you need to automate that too ;)
But that can only happen if I STOP PAINTING!
at least the floorsweeping :D
swweeping the floor? haha
there are robots that do that
due to the coolant air the vac system isn't getting many of the chips
use cold gas at low pressure ;)
so at the end of the day there is a couple hundred pounds of chips all about
but that makes it more expensive
I have Vortec guns
but I need the high pressure to clear packed chips in grooves too
familiar with vortec?
* paul_c uploads the ISO
shop air comes in...
hot air comes out one end...cold the other
It is a no moving parts air powered heat pump
use it a lot on the lathe and mill
rather than the coolant pumps
ahh...lunch is ready
* alex_joni goes home
paul_c: will it be on http://www.sherline.com/emc/
alex_joni: It will, but not linked from the html page
wget will work once it is up.
so sherline.com/emc/bdi-4.12.iso ?
I'll wget it tomorrow.. (do you think it'll be done by then?)
should be done in a couple of hours
is it ok if I remove 4.08 from the site when 4.12 is there?
I guess so...
* alex_joni really goes home
morning? you're in seattle still? :)
* A-L-P-H-A pokes at his linux shell.
hmm... I wonder how I can make my linux shell show up as a vhost.
anybody know anything about IRC protocol? clients that auto-reconnect?
I keep getting silent disconnects using mIRC for Windows (my workstation supports my job and some of the engineering software only runs on Windows) anyway things get quiet, I try to send, find I am not connected
oh.. dont know about that..
I see some of the folks who are logging seem to have auto-reconnect
I dont think they use mirc
I'd use BitchX or irssi
irssi is nicer due to it's easy window support..
I am at 8 networks right now :)
with one client..
the ' key is way to close to the enter key
stevestallings2 : if your here you should try out zircon its another windows irc client,